Hansard: EPC: Debate on Budget Vote No 25 – Police and Budget Vote No 23 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 21 Jul 2014
Summary
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Minutes
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,11 Aug 2014,"Take 207 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-207] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 207
MONDAY, 21 JULY 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
___________
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 10:02.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The MINISTER OF POLICE
START OF DAY
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 207
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Budget Vote No 25 – Police and Budget Vote No 23 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Police, Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, members of the portfolio committee, hon members, the National Commissioner of Police and provincial commissioners, members of the SA Police Service, SAPS, members of the Community Police Forum, CPF, esteemed guests, fellow South Africans, ladies and gentlemen, a pillar of strength, knowledge and intellectual capability in South Africa, Ms Nadine Gordimer, passed away a week ago. As a country, we have become poorer. We draw solace from the fact that Ms Gordimer lived her life well in the service of humankind. We take this opportunity to convey our condolences to family, friends and society at large.
We present this Budget Vote in the month in which we commemorate our hero and icon, the late Dr Nelson Mandela, the former President. We are guided by his exhortations and legacy. In this regard, we commit ourselves to his ideals, which he had fought for, and recall that he was hounded and incarcerated for 27 years so that we can stand here today and proclaim that South Africa, indeed, does belong to those who live in it – black and white. Indeed, it is no wonder that South Africans of all hues fanned across the country on Friday, 18 July, to spend 67 minutes doing good in remembrance.
In our midst today we have some of the everyday heroes, the men and women in blue who make our lives better. From Limpopo, we have Captain Tinus Erasmus, Constable Tunyeko Mongwe and Constable Victor Moloto, who put their lives at great risk helping crash survivors out of an explosives truck that had crashed only to be at the receiving end of the explosion themselves. Constable Thembakazi Jacobs brings hope to domestic abuse survivors in the Khayelitsha area and, of course, Warrant Officer Nico Smallboy, who is a reservist and our worthy winner of the National Prestige Award. With you permission, Chair, I would ask them to identify themselves. They must be somewhere in the gallery. I thought I should just mention this. Thank you. [Applause.]
These are the heroes that cement our resolve to bring together all our people, irrespective of race, gender, creed and religion, or any other basis for discrimination. We are so directed by the Freedom Charter. We further aspire to create a state in which our people are free, safe and able to raise their children in a stable society.
In 1992, the ANC asserted, in its Ready to Govern document, that our role is to achieve better policing, and an efficient criminal justice system with the involvement of our people in the fight against crime, and to mobilise to refurbish the moral fabric of our South African society.
We are directed by this policy position to ensure that, amongst other things, policing is based on community support and participation; the police remain accountable to society and the community it serves through its democratically elected institutions; that policing continues to be subjected to public scrutiny and open debate; allegations of police misconduct are dealt with by an independent complaints and investigation mechanism; and we require a police service that continues to strive for higher performance standards.
The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa mandates us:
To prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.
It further calls upon the Minister of Police to:
... promote good relations between the police and the community and to assess the effectiveness of visible policing.
We recommit ourselves to these ideals, furthermore take stock of the journey that has been travelled thus far and, importantly, we continue to interrogate what needs to be done going forward.
We should recall that the battle against crime cannot be separated from the war on want and that, as the SAPS, we are called upon to maintain law and order in the face of extreme poverty.
A week ago, I sat down with a family in New Brighton in the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan in the Eastern Cape, and listened to the harrowing story of how criminals brazenly walked into the house, demanded to see someone and, without flinching, shot and killed a lady at point blank range over a petty argument. Alongside the MEC for Safety and Security and other officials, we were struck not so much by the pain of death, but rather by the hopelessness of the situation that family found itself in, of harrowing, abject poverty to say the least. This is the scene that plays itself over and over again in families and communities across our country and oftentimes this feeds into the crime wave and we cannot be blind to this fact.
In pursuing our ideal of a safe and secure environment, we are conscious of the fact that our role as the police service is at the tail end of this process. It is for these reasons that we are advocating for an integrated approach to issues of policing and social stability. For us to succeed in this approach, we need to work with other organs of state, business, nongovernmental organisations, research and tertiary institutions. This ideal finds traction in the National Development Plan, NDP, which has been crafted and adopted as the blueprint for the future.
The NDP envisages a state in which the police work closely with communities, where real partnerships emerge among the different organs of state to ensure that the root causes of crime and criminality are addressed before they pose a major threat to our society. With this in mind, through the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, the SAPS will focus on the following key strategic priorities: reducing the number of serious crimes; combatting border and cyber crime; increasing the percentage of trial-ready case dockets for serious crimes; stabilising public protests; and enhancing local police capability.
Furthermore, in this financial year, we are going to introduce and/or reintroduce the following legislative and policy reviews: a comprehensive review of the South African Police Act to align it with the Constitution; research into and policy on reducing the barriers in the reporting of cases of violence against women and children, serial murders and rapes; a review of how Community Policing Forums and Community Safety Forums can assist the police in the stabilisation of areas affected by service delivery protests; research into the assessment of police deployments and how these impact on crime; legislative policy on and research into the impact of firearm legislation on crime; and the need to investigate areas of legislation that require strengthening.
In our 2014 election manifesto, we said we can move South Africa forward by forging a compact between government and its citizens in ensuring that being safe becomes the normal state of our country. There is an interwoven thread between the Freedom Charter, the Strategy and Tactics document, the NDP and the ANC's Election Manifesto, which also points to consistent aspirations and a wish for a better life in conditions of peace, safety and security.
We commit the South African Police Service to community engagement, listening to and of being one with the people that we serve. We are also obliged to fight crime and restore the citizens' faith and trust in our law enforcement agencies and the criminal justice system. For us to achieve this, we should take our cue from the KwaZulu-Natal province, which has articulated, correctly so, that we need to build a united front against crime and corruption.
South African citizens need to embrace that which is good in our police and reject that which is bad. We appeal to all our citizens to use designated institutions of policing to deal with matters of policing and conduct by the police. We are extremely concerned by the spate of killings of our policemen and women and call on our communities to mobilise against this scourge. It should be taken into cognisance that South Africans, through their taxes, pay a lot of money to train our policemen and women. Therefore, as society, we must ask ourselves why we should keep quiet in the face of a concerted, destructive campaign waged against our policemen and women.
We appreciate the work that has been done by the Mpumalanga province in highlighting the cost to society around this issue and for coining the theme: "You kill the police, you kill the community".
IsiZulu:
Kufanele sonke, ngobuningi bethu, siphakame silwe nalesi sihluku esingaka sokubulawa kwabantu bomthetho. Uma sihluleka ukukwenza lokhu, kuyobe kusho ukuthi asinandaba nokuthi abantwana bethu sizobashiyela ikusasa elinjani. Ngobuningi bethu, kufanele sisukume sisho ngazwi linye sithi: "Wabulala iphoyisa, ubulala umphakathi".
[We must all, in our numbers, fight against this brutal killing of the law enforcement people. If we fail to do this, it would mean that we do not care about the future that will be inherited by our children. In our numbers, we must stand up and speak in one voice, saying: "You kill the police, you kill the community".]
English:
As part of the process of professionalising the Police Service, we have approved changes in the recruitment strategy at the entry level of constables with a view to ensure that only the best-suited candidates are recruited into the South African Police Service. All our new recruits will be taken through rigorous testing for their suitability before they start with their formal training. They will further be taken through grooming camps for screening purposes, vetting, written assessments, physical fitness as well as other diagnostic tests on behaviour, patriotism and culture.
These changes have been introduced as part of the community-based recruitment strategy that is aimed at addressing challenges such as pending and/or previous convictions, fraudulent qualifications and to avoid nepotism in the recruitment of officers. In terms of this strategy, the role of the community in commenting on their suitability will also assist in completing the 360° cycle of suitability testing.
We have further put in place mechanisms to build capacity within our crime intelligence units all over the country. A number of critical senior and middle management positions were filled in the reporting period. This is an important unit that helps the police in the fight against crime and its significance cannot be overemphasised.
We will further ensure that the current members of the South African Police Service are taken through rigorous sessions to understand the code of conduct. We are expecting each and every member to acknowledge and understand the contents of the code before signing in order to make sure that they are accountable. Our approach to professionalising the South African Police Service will contribute to the zero tolerance of corruption and nepotism and deliver the calibre of police officer who will serve the people of this country with dignity and pride.
In 2010, an initiative was undertaken by government to strengthen and realign the role of the Civilian Secretariat for Police, as part of strengthening civilian oversight of the police. The initiative involved a two-pronged approach, namely, institutional reform and organisational reform.
With regard to institutional reform, the Civilian Secretariat for Police Act, No 2 of 2011, was passed and put into operation in December 2011. The Act establishes a Secretariat as a separate department with its own budget and lines of reporting. The Act also requires provincial oversight roles to be aligned with those of the Secretariat as part of strengthening both intergovernmental co-operation and provincial monitoring of the SAPS. All provinces have begun the process of aligning their structures and processes with those of the Secretariat. In addition, organisational reform and processes, which have seen the structure growing from 38 people to over 114 people between 2011 and 2014, have started.
In his state of the nation address in 2013, the President of the Republic announced the establishment of the executing structure for public order policing to ensure that public order is effectively restored and that national stability is ensured. Given the country's sociopolitical circumstances, in the 2013-14 financial year, we responded by upgrading equipment for the Public Order Unit, with a specific focus on the following: the designing and procurement of new operational vehicles; the development of specifications by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, for water cannons that can be manufactured locally; the procurement of long-range acoustic devices; the procurement of audio recording devices, video cameras and accessories as well as ammunition and pyrotechnics.
In the intervening period, 1 826 members successfully attended public order policing refresher training in crowd management techniques for operational readiness, and 60 members were trained as video camera operators and information managers to capture footage during crowd-related incidents. All these efforts are conducted in line with the national vision of demilitarising the Police Service as well as putting in place a civilian approach to public order policing with a view to reducing the levels of militaristic, or a perceived militaristic approach, to public order policing.
Another project worth mentioning is the Frontline Service Delivery Monitoring project, which is currently being piloted in nine police stations, in other words, one police station per province. The key objectives of the project are to ensure that Police Service points are accessible and standardised to adequately support professional policing, provide a professional and quality-based service to the people of South Africa and to enhance engagement with all stakeholders in the fight against crime.
The project is focusing on four critical dimensions of service delivery: the individual as employee; the physical touch-points - in other words the environment in which our people operate - the quality of services delivered as well as stakeholders. Interventions undertaken to date include dialogue with station and cluster commanders and engagement with Old Mutual and Business Against Crime SA to solicit support. The lessons from these nine pilot stations will be rolled out to 500 police stations.
In the past few years, there has been a spate of service delivery protests around the country, which have stretched our capacity as the police to maintain order as mandated by Section 205(3) of the Constitution. A total number of 13 575 community-related protest incidents were reported and successfully stabilised. These incidences arose mainly from unrest-related incidents such as labour disputes in the mining sector, education and transport sectors and dissatisfaction with service delivery by local municipalities.
Of the 13 575 incidents, 11 668 were conducted peacefully and 1 907 turned violent, which led to the arrest of 2 532 individuals. We will continue to attend to these community protests with vigilance, as we have done in the past, with the sole intention of ensuring that we secure the property and lives of all South Africans. We also appeal to community leaders to exercise responsible leadership, which ensures protection of property and human lives.
It is important to note, in the words of Ernest Barker, that:
The claims of liberty have to be adjusted to those of equality, and the claims of both have also to be adjusted to those of co-operation.
One of our fundamental tasks is to contribute to the strengthening of the Criminal Justice Cluster. On 22 July 2010 the President mandated the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, Cluster to create an Anti-Corruption Task Team to fast-track the investigation and prosecution of cases of corruption. We have, in partnership with our colleagues in the Justice cluster, managed to apprehend and prosecute suspected criminals involved in organised crime.
We have established a national task team with the JCPS Cluster in line with the -seven-point plan to oversee the roll-out of Community Safety Forums. The Community Safety Forums are managed and co-ordinated by the Civilian Secretariat for Police. We have currently established 125 Community Safety Forums in the 278 municipalities and the remaining Community Safety Forums will be rolled out in the current financial year.
One of the biggest threats to social stability and economic growth in South Africa is the question of organised crime and drug trafficking. As His Majesty Isilo SamaBandla Onke, King Goodwill Zwelithini kaBhekuzulu, put it: "The best way to destroy a nation is to kill its youth." That is exactly what drugs do. As society, we should all understand that organised crime and drug trafficking is part of the ideological onslaught against the people of South Africa.
In the period under review, through the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, known as the Hawks, we have registered the following milestones: 38 clandestine drug laboratories were dismantled - and we will continue to focus on this area; we arrested 169 individuals for illegal purchase, theft and possession of uncut diamonds and unwrought precious metals; a further 927 suspects were arrested for illicit mining; we have smashed the suspected syndicates for dealing in drugs between South Africa and Tanzania; we have arrested 1 218 persons for organised crime and 828 were convicted; and we have arrested 254 persons for drug-related crimes to a value of R103 million.
Commercial crime is the most treasonous crime that a human being can ever commit against the state as it deprives the country of its legitimate tax base. We have recorded the following milestones, amongst others, 6 187 new cases were received, with 3 888 suspects charged, with the conviction of 2 142 achieved. We smashed counterfeit card fraud syndicates, as well as gangs operating an advance fee scam infamously known as "419".
We have also made cyber-crime an area of focus and have had a number of successes, including the arrest of more than 180 individuals. In combating this phenomenon, the DPCI established digital forensic laboratories to collect and analyse evidence. The DPCI will continue to capacitate and develop the resources required to meet the evolving criminal standards.
Central to these efforts is beefing up our forensic ability. This is why, together with other government agencies, nongovernmental organisations and the private sector, we hosted the first National Forensic Services Conference from 2 to 5 July 2013 – the first of its kind on our continent. South Africa became the 57th country to assent to legislation that provides a framework to obtain DNA samples from arrested persons and offenders. This forensic DNA capability is a huge step towards a more effective system, which would lead to a quicker exoneration of the innocent and detection and conviction of perpetrators.
As part of the gains in the fight against crime a total number of 2 785 suspects wanted for serious and violent crimes have been traced and arrested during the period under review, including crimes such as murder and aggravated robbery. The National Development Plan further dictates to us, as the Police, to have an integrated approach to safety. Our approach in addressing this matter will be evident in how we integrate our activities with those of other entities of the state, private sector organisations, labour and nongovernmental organisations as well as other interest groups.
We will continue to foster relations with the private sector in the fight against crime and corruption. We have, in the reporting period, processed the Private Security Industry Regulation Authority Amendment Bill, Psira, through Parliament, with the view to manage and regulate the private security industry better. The Bill seeks to introduce significant changes regarding ownership of private security businesses by foreign nationals, while at the same time improving governance of the authority and addressing the funding of the entity through funds that are appropriated by Parliament. The Private Security Industry Levies Act, No 23 of 2002, will also be tabled for review in order to align it with the changes that have taken place since it had been enacted.
The private security industry currently employs over 485 000 security officers and has over 8 100 active security businesses. This industry is by far one of the leading suppliers of entry-level jobs in the South African labour market, with an estimated turnover of over R50 billion.
Improved operational efficiencies have accelerated industry service delivery and as a result helped the entity to improve its average registration turnaround time from 180 days to 19 days. Our efforts, working in partnership with communities, will still continue in the current financial year. We are working on a strategy to revitalise our Community Policing Forums with a view to increasing their capacity to assist the police in the fight against crime. The training and resourcing of the CPFs will form part of our plans in order to ensure that they become a meaningful stakeholder and resource in the fight against crime.
In wrapping up, precisely because we are building a united front against crime and corruption, we have already started to establish relations with academic and research institutions with the view to developing our capacity as an organisation to deliver on our mandate. These interactions will go a long way to ensuring that strategy, policy and legislation are based on research and factual information derived from some of these inputs.
We also take this opportunity to salute the women of our country as we approach the month of August, the month in which we pay homage to the sacrifices of our mothers and sisters in securing the freedoms that we are now enjoying. It is no coincidence, therefore, that the SAPS, an organisation that has mainly been male-dominated, is now under the command of a woman of stature. [Applause.] In August we will announce a number of initiatives that will expand the role and opportunities for women to play a crucial role in policing. It would be amiss of me not to mention the good work done by the Women's Network in the police and the important voice that they have become.
Our efforts are about honour and dignity, as we contribute towards a state, as Socrates put it, "a state based on wisdom, courage, discipline and justice". We should rally all sectors of our society in the fight against crime and corruption as this alone would define our human existence. We must do so, so that, indeed, as Aristotle put it:
We must do that which answers to the whole of goodness, being the exercise of goodness as a whole towards one's neighbour.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr F BEUKMAN
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-208] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
The MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 208
Mr F BEUKMAN: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister Nhleko and Deputy Minister Sotyu, members of executive councils, MECs, hon members of the House and fellow South Africans, the Portfolio Committee on Police received briefings from the SA Police Service, the SAPS, on their 2014-15 budget on the 3, 4 and 5 July 2014. Briefings were also received from the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, the Ipid, on 4 July 2014 and the Civilian Secretariat for Police on 8 July 2014. The briefings were preceded by inputs from civil society and trade unions. The report with relation to these three entities was adopted by the committee on Friday, 11 July 2014.
Apart from the findings and observations that were made, firm recommendations were adopted by the committee. In the case of the SAPS 28 recommendations were made; with relation to the Civilian Secretariat for Police 14 recommendations; and in the case of the Ipid 16 recommendations.
I want to thank all members of the committee for their contributions during this process. The recommendations are in line with the key priorities of the National Development Plan, the NDP, with respect to building safer communities, namely by, firstly, strengthening the criminal justice system; secondly, making the Police Service professional; thirdly, demilitarising the Police Service; fourthly, building safety by using an integrated approach; and fifthly, building community participation in community safety.
The portfolio committee will monitor the responses and implementation plans of the three entities relating to the adopted recommendations.
Reflecting on the last 20 years of democracy, the ANC recorded in the 2014 January 8 Statement that:
The politically-inspired violence that engulfed many parts of our country before 1994 was brought to an end. Overall levels of serious crimes have been reduced. We are working together to transform our security forces and judicial system to ensure that they reflect the national and gender character of our country.
Over the past five years, progress has been made in reducing the levels of serious crimes such as murder, aggravated robbery, and crimes against vulnerable groups, especially women, children and people with disabilities. Key targets for the Medium-Term Strategic Framework period include, firstly, a 2% reduction in the number of reported contact crimes; secondly, an increase in the percentage of citizens who feel safe walking alone during the day from 86% in 2012 to 88% by 2019, and at night from 37% in 2012 to 39% by 2019, as measured by Statistics SA surveys; and thirdly, an increase from 62% in 2012 to 70% by 2019 of households that are satisfied with the Police in their areas.
The clarion call is indeed that all people in South Africa must be and feel safe. The ANC therefore welcomes the approach emphasised in the SAPS' strategic plan, as part of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, namely reducing the number of all serious crimes, contact crimes and trio crimes; increasing activities to prevent and combat crime; increasing the number of court-ready dockets for all serious crimes, contact crimes and trio crimes; increasing the detection rate for all serious crimes, contact crimes and trio crimes, including organised crime and crimes against women and children; increasing the conviction rates for all serious crimes and contact crimes by bringing the SAPS service points closer to communities.
Two pivotal priorities indicated by the Minister of Police today relate to the professionalisation of the SAPS and its demilitarisation. In a 1993 discussion document, the ANC outlined the movement's vision for a democratic Police Service. It called for the transformation of what it saw as a militaristic, secretive, unaccountable, racist and violent institution. In its place, the ANC envisaged a demographically representative, locally accountable and visible, nonpolitical service, focused on prevention and problem-solving.
In 2014, the focus should be to further sharpen our priorities to ensure that we reach this goal. Professionalism as described in the literature includes the following: A duty to serve; maximum preparation before entering service through training; constant improvement of skills and information through continual training; hard, selfless work; guarding the profession's image at work and in private; and constant attention to self-discipline.
The NDP is clear about the professionalisation of the Police:
Firstly, in the short term the code of conduct should be included in disciplinary regulations and performance appraisal systems and periodic checks should be conducted into the level of understanding and practice of the code; secondly, a code of professional and ethical police practice should be developed and members should be trained and tested; and finally, all officers should undergo a competency assessment and be rated accordingly.
The NDP states that the professional police practice code should state that the officer's fundamental duties are in the Constitution. They are there to serve the community; safeguard lives and property without discrimination; protect those who are peaceful against violence and the weak against intimidation; and respect the constitutional rights of all to equality and justice.
We believe that the establishment of the police academy in Paarl would contribute to developing training appropriate to the professionalisation of the Police. We welcome the community-based recruitment and selection strategy to minimise unsuitable candidates making it into the SAPS. The calibre of new candidates who enter the SAPS should contribute to a new generation of policemen and women who are committed to the ideals of the 1996 Constitution, namely to act in accordance with the Bill of Rights and the law. The committee supports the demilitarisation of the SAPS. It is in line with the NDP. The revisit of approach and doctrine is vital. A Police Service that is trusted by the community should be the ultimate outcome.
In a 2012-paper by Andrew Faull and Brian Rose on Professionalism and the SA Police Service they indicate that the SAPS must focus on ensuring that members engage with the public, whether client or suspect, in a manner that encourages their acceptance as a neutral and legitimate authority. This can be encouraged by improving recruitment and training; encouraging a culture of integrity; professionalising the use of force; ensuring that policing is integrated with, but not controlling of, other social and community services; and improving police communication and interaction with civilians.
In the January 8 Statement of 2014, the ANC committed itself to the ideal that:
South Africans are safer and feel safer, and will further reduce the levels of crime and increase the capacity of our police and criminal justice system. We will also continue to work with our communities to make our neighbourhoods and cities safer, especially through strengthening anticrime awareness and introducing stronger legislation to combat substance abuse.
In his seventh state of the nation address delivered on Tuesday, 17 June 2014, the President of the Republic mentioned that the current administration will prioritise and address safety in schools, and will continue to fight drug and substance abuse in schools and communities. The NDP highlights that all schools should have learner safety plans. The SAPS has been engaging in school safety initiatives, notably the Safe Schools Programme, to ensure that schools, parents and communities join the SAPS to work in partnership to ensure safety at schools. The Safe Schools Programme focuses on drugs, crime and violence in primary and secondary schools. School-based crime prevention co-ordinators visit schools and facilitate the creation of awareness of the negative impact of drugs. Schools are encouraged to establish and maintain safe school committees comprising of internal stakeholders of the school – learners, educators, school governing bodies and school security personnel, as well as external stakeholders.
At its 52nd national conference, the ANC resolved that Community Safety Forums should play a vital role in campaigns around peace and stability issues. The NDP's actions would increase community participation in crime prevention and safety initiatives. Safety audits should be done in all communities, focusing on crime and the safety conditions of the most vulnerable in the community. The ANC wants to call on all learners, students, parents, teachers, Community Policing Forums, CPFs, and communities to participate in this initiative. Community participation is essential to promote community-centred policing.
The changing face of society requires all institutions to evaluate, on a constant basis, their ability to deal with new realities. We believe that it is vital that the capability of the state to investigate and prosecute violent conduct in public protests be strengthened as a matter of priority. The Portfolio Committee on Police resolved that the SAPS should prioritise the strengthening of the Public Order Police Units as soon as possible, and to fully integrate crime intelligence capabilities in their activities.
The budget allocation for the SAPS in the 2014-15 financial year is R72,5 billion. Visible policing receives R37 billion and the subprogramme, specialised interventions, receives R2,7 billion. The portfolio committee will monitor the progress in strengthening the Public Order Police Units on a quarterly basis. Incidentally, this is one of the ministerial priorities, namely to continue strengthening public order policing to ensure that human rights are protected at all times when policing community protests.
The legislative architecture that is in place to promote an accountable and professional Police Service includes the Ipid and the Civilian Secretariat for Police. Both these institutions have the necessary legal framework in place to fulfil their duties. The Treasury made allocations of R234 million and R99 million to the Ipid and the Civilian Secretariat for Police respectively. We need to see in the outcomes of these two institutions that they implement their legislative framework in full and that they contribute to a Police Service that operates in accordance with the Constitution and the law. We need to see better collaboration and co-ordination. We need to see action.
In ensuring that there is also an adequate legal framework and appropriate roadmap for policing in the future, all role-players are awaiting the White Paper on Policing and the White Paper on Safety and Security as part of the review of the SA Police Service Act. Proper consultation and effective input from the citizenry and interest groups would be a prerequisite for the success of the process. The review of the SA Police Service Act would be a major priority of the Portfolio Committee on Police during the lifetime of the fifth democratic Parliament. We will have to take stock of what has worked since the implementation of the 1995 Act; what has not worked; what must be improved; and what new innovations must be included.
The recommendations of the NDP and other policy imperatives already referred to would guide us during that important process. The finalisation of the said documents and legislation will undoubtedly contribute to the strengthening and modernisation of proper police conduct in South Africa.
Finally, let me extend a word of thanks to the committee secretariat, content adviser and researchers of the Portfolio Committee on Police for their hard work and dedication.
Afrikaans:
Voorsitter, ons as Suid-Afrikaanse nasie moet ook vanoggend ons afgryse uitspreek oor die wrede moord op die vierjarige Taegrin Morris, wat deur skobbejakke vermoor is. Dit is 'n afgryslike daad, en in stryd met waarvoor ons as 'n Suid-Afrikaanse nasie staan.
Ons wil graag ons innige simpatie en sterkte namens die komitee en die Parlement aan die Morris-familie en die gemeenskap van Delmore Park, Boksburg, uitspreek. Ons vertrou dat die nasionale kommissaris en haar span alles moontlik sal doen om te verseker dat die booswigte wat hierdie verraderlike daad gepleeg het, opgespoor sal word en met die volle gereg te doen sal kry.
Dit is baie belangrik dat morele regenerasie 'n prioriteit moet wees. Dit is nie net die taak van die polisie nie, maar van alle gemeenskappe om te verseker dat ons opstaan teen hierdie sort optrede deur enkelinge in die gemeenskap.
English:
Today, we also want to pay tribute to those members of the SAPS who have died, hence paid the highest price in the fight against crime since the last Budget Vote debate. We want to extend our condolences to their next of kin. They need to be honoured. They need to be remembered and revered for their contribution to a safe and more secure South Africa.
Communities should support the police - men and women - who fight to keep their communities free of crime. They are part of the community. The ANC supports Budget Vote No 25 for Police and Budget Vote No 23 for the independent Policing Directorate.
Thank you. [Applause.] CW/
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,11 Aug 2014,"Take 209 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-209] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Mr F BEUKMAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 209
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: [Interjections.] Chairperson, no, I will not take any questions. Currently our SAPS are to our citizenry what Germany was to Brazil in the Fifa World Cup. They are not beating us, they are burying us. As such, I am deeply grateful that we have a new Minister, and equally so that we have a new Chairperson.
This new Minister has inherited a shambles, with R150 million in fruitless and wasteful expenditure just being the tip of the iceberg that is threatening to sink the whole ship.
As for the previous Minister, I trust he has more luck with ballet than he had with bullets – and that he quickly works out that a grand jete doesn't refer to another fun-filled, taxpayer-funded private airline trip. Thankfully, with a cut in budget from R73 billion down to R3 billion he'll have a lot less loose loot to squander.
Chair, I must commend this new Minister for allowing the questions I put to him to be answered in full; no sarcasm and complete disclosure made a welcome change. But I can't but wonder how it is we come to find him in this exalted position. I looked at his slim CV, and it took me a while to dig out some background information. He seems to have left school somewhere in Standard 9, and has no further education, yet he mysteriously ended up as the Director-General for Labour.
I do know he had a shot at being an Acting Municipal Manager until they found he did not have the relevant qualifications, but it all came together when I saw that he was appointed the Regional Commissioner of Correctional Services in KwaZulu-Natal, who then advocated for the parole of No 1's ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member Kohler-Barnard, there is a point of order.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, is it parliamentary for hon member to reflect on the competence to hold office of another member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. Indeed, hon Kohler-Barnard, it is not parliamentary to reflect that and that should be done through the form of a substantive motion to the House. The integrity of the Minister is not under discussion at the moment. I want you to desist from doing so and also to withdraw the remark that you have made.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Which particular remark, sir?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The remark about integrity and the incompetency of the Minister.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I have not commented on his integrity at all.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can you just withdraw the remark that you made ... [Interjections.] ... in terms of ... [Interjections.] Hon member, would you just withdraw, please!
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I am happy to withdraw, if you just tell me what to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Well, you have said quite a few things that I have listened to, that the hon Minister has raised in his point of order, and I want you to withdraw it, please. [Interjections.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Okay, this has all been in the media. So, I am quite happy with that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can you withdraw it, please. This is not a media house. Can you withdraw, please! [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: As you wish. I withdraw whatever it is you want me to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just withdraw unconditionally, please.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Withdraw, sure, unconditionally.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: When this Minister was the Regional Commissioner of the Correctional Services, he advocated for the parole of No 1's financial adviser and benefactor Schabir Shaik. So this is the man who signed off on the release of the never-been-ill-a-day-in-his-life, golf-playing, whisky-swilling, close friend to the President.
It was after that that this Minister was suddenly deemed suitably qualified to be a Director-General, and today earns a Minister's salary.
This Minister has inherited an entity which on the books looks effective. But I could take him by the hand to 153 stations without toilets, running water, electricity, or all three; to stations where the rain pours through the roof; or those with few working vehicles, or plenty of vehicles and no driver's licences; to stations where the police members round up cattle and demand a fee from the local subsistence farmers for their release.
I could show him where to source some of the money to renovate a station or two, starting with the man who was the first nonpolice political appointment to National Police Commissioner, Jackie Selebi. We are still feeling the effect of his disastrous term, and what he did to the SAPS and to our reputation abroad is immeasurable. As for the money: according to Treasury Regulations 12.7.1 and 2 he should have started paying back the taxpayers the over R17 million, 30 days after he lost his appeal. Yet it's been three years, and we've not seen a cent.
That R17 million could pay the salaries of over 200 constables for a year. It could pay for more officers on the streets, provide vehicles at stations, bulletproof vests where there are none, or provide much needed crime-fighting resources to those men and women whom he embarrassed; or even build a station so that our members aren't found working from their cars when they're locked out once again because the Department of Public Works has forgotten to renew the lease.
Or perhaps the money could be used to help the SAPS Air Wing, as more than half is sitting gathering dust, with six of the aircraft grounded since before December 2012, probably the Robinson R44s bought for the World Cup, but never used. I have asked over and over about this matter, but the NPC has seemingly had no success.
The cynicism of the South African public in terms of our SAPS began around the time that Jackie Selebi was sentenced to 15 years after being found guilty of corruption, spent just 229 days in a hospital ward, and was released because he was on the verge of death.
He wasn't. Obviously. Schabir Shaik wasn't either, and he's seen playing golf and dining out regularly in Durban.
Then, of course, I could show the new Minister what destruction was wreaked in the SAPS by the now Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Bheki Cele.I welcomed his sacking as National Police Commissioner on 12 June 2012 after the Public Protector found his actions were, "improper, unlawful, and amounted to maladministration". The Molio Police Board of Inquiry recommended that criminal charges be considered as he was guilty of gross misconduct.
So, we laid charges, yet now he's a colleague in the Ministerial benches, and the SAPS have somehow in the past two years found it impossible ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, on another point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, what is your point of order?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: It is my understanding that the Rules require that in our debate we should be relevant to the topic and my understanding is that we are debating ... [Interjections.] ... but this is about parole systems and has nothing to do with the police. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, that is not a point of order. Continue, hon member.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Nor is it correct! So, we laid charges and two years down the line the SAPS still find it impossible to investigate them. The Minister will find a question from me in his in-box about this matter. I could show this new Minister footage of Andries Tatane being murdered as SAPS members shot him at point blank range on TV live, or Mido Macia being dragged off to his death.
But I could equally take this Minister to pearls of perfection scattered about the country, where the police are admired and supported by the locals, who in turn are cared for by them in the way in which we thought police should work when we changed them from a force to a service.
They have managed to hold onto that which we admire in the SAPS, despite the second - fired - National Planning Commissioner militarising the entire structure just so that he could be called "General".
I must point out that this title of "General" is one he bizarrely demands to be called still today, when he was stripped of both the title and everything that went with it when he was fired. He isn't a general, and has no right to use that title, even in The New Age newspaper.
I could tell the Minister the tale of Richard Mdluli and his suspension, and the suspension of the next acting head of CI once he pressed charges against the current NPC and her close confidant, the Police portfolio committee of the Western Cape after she was allegedly recorded warning him he was under investigation.
The latest head of the Independent Policing Investigative Directorate is investigating this very matter and as such I have every confidence it will be swept under the carpet.
There are only two original members of the Police portfolio committee left and, along with her, I voted for the current chair when he took over as the head of the ICD, now the Ipid. I do trust the man and I'm sure one day the truth of why he resigned on the day of the Marikana Massacre will emerge.
That massacre, and who will be the scapegoat for it, has been much in the news and I'm sure the lessons the new Minister will learn from the commission as we all watch the former Minister wriggle like a fish on a hook trying with all his might to justify his actions while convincing his accusers that he is in no way to blame, will guide him when he lies awake at night, wondering which way to jump.
By now the new Minister will have learned that we have 1 448 convicted criminals in the SAPS. One of them is a Major General, 10 are Brigadiers, 21 are Colonels, 10 are Majors, 43 are Lt Colonels, 163 are Captains, 84 are Lieutenants, 716 are Warrant Officers, 267 are Sergeants, 129 are Constables and 4 are staff. So, nearly all of them have been promoted up the ranks despite their being murderers and rapists. Most of them work in the Eastern Cape, but 64 of them work in the SAPS Head Office.There are probably many more criminals in the ranks, but the audit was inexplicably stopped at the end of 2010.
Chairperson, it seems, having finally admitted to this criminality, it would have been easy to simply apply the SAPS Act and boot them out, but the NPC and her staff blundered these affairs, so the unions could stop the firing of this evil bunch of criminals in our midst.
I could introduce the new Minister to outstanding police in every single province, police who would take a bullet for either of us, but, equally, I could point out the fault lines, where the failings are many, relentlessly highlighted in the committee report.
Chair, I could explain to the new Minister how South Africans don't believe a word of what was said during the annual release of the crime stats circus, especially as the figures were fiddled so amateurishly last year by his predecessor.
The sad truth is that there are thousands of disillusioned SAPS members who have achieved extraordinary things, but have never been promoted. The logically progressive career paths ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: On another point of order, Chair. I really hate to do this.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, what is the point of order now?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The reflection on the Minister's predecessor, who is still a member of this House, of this nature is grossly unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, is it on the same point?
Mrs A STEYN: Yes, in terms of Rule 47, this hon Minister is now really making it difficult for our member to finish her speech. Can I ask the Minister to refrain from making silly points of order. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order! Hon Kohler, we have stopped the clock, so we are not eating into your speaking time. You will have time to conclude your debate. I heard the remark that was made in terms of the former Minister of Police "wriggling like a fish on a hook" and I think that is unparliamentary, hon member. You must withdraw that remark.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Certainly. My pleasure.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Then, hon members, while points of order are in place, it is the discretion of the Chair to decide and to rule when a member deliberately disrupts the debate or input of another member. If so, I will certainly do so, hon member. You may continue, hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: Chairperson on a point of order: I would request that you review your ruling in terms of the member's parliamentary language. I believe that it is a misinterpretation on your part of Rule 66, which ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member. Take your seat, please! I have made a ruling and I stand by it! Continue, hon member. [Interjections.] Proceed, hon member.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Yes, I think I was referring at the time to the crime stats circus and, yes, the disillusioned members of the SAPS. Experienced SAPS members are today instructed to mentor 20-year-olds, who are then promoted over their heads, for whom they must still do the job; grit their teeth and salute.
Morale is at rock-bottom, and that, while this Minister's new department was scoffing R45 million on meals and swanning around in 5-star hotels, comfortable in the reality that their children, lovers and relatives were being bounced up the ranks regardless of their lack of qualifications, our people were dying in increased numbers. Forty-five murdered each day.
Indeed, while I give this speech 3 people will be murdered and 25 women raped. And the chances of their killers and rapists being apprehended and successfully prosecuted and incarcerated are miniscule, because so few cases make it to court, and so often the cases presented are so weak they're laughed out the door.
Sadly, this Minister has yet to learn of his SAPS members who are so poorly trained that they wreck crime scenes, fail to collect evidence, destroy evidence or even sell it.
It may pay the new Minister to ask why it is that in Gauteng 70 officers have been dismissed recently for corruption, attempted murder, armed robbery, defeating the ends of justice and assault. And why another 173 were fired in KwaZulu-Natal. And they aren't part of the infamous 1 448. They are fresh, new criminals. The question, of course, to ask is: How on earth did they get into the SAPS in the first place?
Needless to say our SAPS needs a comprehensive turnaround strategy. It cannot go on as before, with political appointments, secretaries, drivers, lovers and relatives of various bigwigs being bounced up the ranks to senior positions over the heads of those who have earned the positions through backbreaking hard work.
Chair, this Minister's predecessor shoved through poor, unconstitutional legislation such as the Hawks Bill, rejected now for the third time by the courts, and the xenophobic Private Security Industry Regulation Amendment Bill, which allows for the expropriation of entire private security companies which have head offices elsewhere.
Even if the President decides that South Africa doesn't need to be bogged down in the Constitutional Court and international arbitral tribunals, it is quite obvious that the aim is being achieved through the Home Affairs' immigration regulations, which ensure any permanent residents working in any sector of the private security industry will not be allowed back into the country should he or she pop to Mauritius for a holiday – a neat trick.
I could tell the new Minister that there were zero dismissals in relation to the 13 000 lost SAPS firearms. And that R96 million was spent to send cops to South Sudan and Darfur; of the multimillion rand Automatic Vehicle Location, AVL, SAPS car-tracking system contract lapsing, because the now Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries signed the renewal three days after it had expired; our reservists turned away from SAPS' doors since 2008 and now treated like trash via the new regulations; that 20% of detectives are without the most basic of training; just 3,3% of cops are trained in sexual offences. There are 27 000 cops with firearms, but no licences; 16 594 cops without driver's licences and as many cops with licences but no vehicles.
This Minister must know that there are heroes in the SAPS, members who will put their lives on the line for us members of the public on a daily basis. But, equally, there are those who use the position to rob and rape and that the balance between the good and the bad has begun to tilt towards the bad.
The plan to integrate the criminal justice system has been spoken about for a decade, perhaps 14 years, and the most the SAPS have been able to do to date is to spend a huge amount of money and then fail at scanning and sending dockets to court. I have no option but to hope that now that the empty suit has sailed off into the sunset of his career, this new Minister will prove to be more substantial.
Unfortunately, the new Minister has inherited no clear plan of how to tackle the main issue of police brutality, and while I have my reservations about his appointment, I trust his history of abusing his powers to the benefit of the President and his friends will be left behind him as he steps into this fresh new day.
If I have a few moments left, I would like to say one more thing. In other countries, such as Germany, a family prays daily that their children would marry a doctor and if they fail to marry a doctor, they pray daily that they would marry a police officer. That is how highly they are regarded in so many countries around the world. I think we should all pray daily that our police officers come to be held in such high regard that every parent would want their children to marry one. Thank you, Minister and Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr D L TWALA
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Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 210
Mr D L TWALA: Chairperson, Ms Kohler-Barnard, that is a really hard act to follow for one who is new in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please speak into the microphone. I can hardly hear you.
Mr D L TWALA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I was just saying that Ms Kohler-Barnard did a great job. I cannot repeat or go back to what you have just said. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon members, all protocol observed. It is perhaps imperative that we go back in history in order to understand how we got here – that which Ms Kohler-Barnard has just alluded to. In the 1800s diamonds were discovered in the Northern Cape, thus resulting in a scramble for dominance of the area between the two contending colonial powers, that is, the British Imperial Crown and the Dutch settler contingent. I will not dwell much on the tussle between the two as it is adequately captured by history, but I want to focus on the product it created – the economic system that emerged, driven by nothing but the exploitation of the new-found source of wealth and the abundant but recalcitrant potential labour pool.
A construct was devised by Cecil John Rhodes, with the assistance of his cohorts, to facilitate the extraction of the quarry. The essence of the construct was to reduce the indigenous people to perpetual servitude, continually beholden to the system for survival through the introduction of a myriad of laws aimed at eroding their freedoms in the land of their ancestors. The construct took on a variety of mutations over the years of our subjugation. The National Development Plan, upon which this proposed budget is anchored, is another mutation of the same construct as that created by Cecil John Rhodes, and the outcomes will continue to remain the same.
This is epitomised by the conduct of the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral, in Gauteng, with the support of the municipal police, and the criminalisation of communities for using the roads they had paid for a long time ago – all this in the quest for creating a national patriotic bourgeoisie.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): I get the impression that we are not hearing you properly. Could you just lift up that microphone so that all of us are able to hear you?
Mr D L TWALA: Alright.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Or better still, speak into the microphone.
Mr D L TWALA: Similarly, calls are beginning to emerge, agitating for a boost in the numbers of the Public Order Policing Units to quell the civil unrest that is engulfing the country.
The point being missed here relates to the construct. No amount of cosmetic application can change its outcomes. The proposed civilianisation of the police by the National Police Commissioner will come to naught as this does not speak to the actual causalities of crime, which are socioeconomic by nature. This fallacious belief is further exposed by the levels of corruption in the ranks of the SA Police Service, SAPS, primarily because we believe that they too, as human beings, continuously yearn for a better life that remains out of their reach. They have dreams too. This reflects itself in the quality of detective work, which has always been a challenge, thus resulting in poor investigative outputs, leading to case dismissals in courts.
Relating to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, there doesn't seem to have been a proper and adequate handover by the former directorate, as evidenced by the report of the current leadership. In their presentation, they alluded to very critical tools and an enabling capacity as underspent items. The question therefore would be: How do they make up for the shortfall? We acknowledge the commitment made by Mr McBride that they would use their spare time to cover the said items. However, we remain sceptical. As a consequence of inadequate resourcing, they may face difficulties.
The other issue relates to staff turnover in the directorate, mainly attributed to low salaries. It seems that once the members of staff have been trained by the directorate, private companies poach them. However, there isn't any meaningful remedy in the offing. We would like the directorate to come up with recommendations on ways to curb this brain drain.
We urge the establishment of specialised units to deal with specific crimes, resourced with adequate skills in their areas of expertise, not only in high-profile cases. We usually see resources thrown into and the best of the police assigned to such cases. We would prefer the establishment of specialised units to serve all citizens so as to facilitate equal treatment.
The fight against crime should be driven by intelligence generated from the crime intelligence division, which is unfortunately mired in controversy. [Time expired.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO
Mr D L TWALA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 210
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Chairman, I congratulate the Minister on being appointed the new Minister of Police. The task ahead of him is very daunting indeed.
The IFP is gravely concerned about criminality within the Police Service. The state of our Police Service is disheartening and many communities in our country have lost faith in the ability of the police to protect them. Officers continually arrest their own members who have been colluding with criminals, or who may be criminals themselves. Trusting the police to do their jobs is a difficult thing to do, because not even dockets are safe in some police stations.
The IFP is on record for its opposition to the civilian leadership of the Police Service. Our police officers themselves are in dire straits as there is a complete lack of strong leadership in the Police Service. The civilian leadership tasked with leading the police is not appointed from within the Police Service itself as a natural progression for upward mobility based on merit and experience, but is imposed from outside. There have been many glaring weaknesses in the civilian leadership, beginning with Mr Jackie Selebi, the former Commissioner, followed by Mr Bheki "Shoot-to-kill" Cele and now, with uMama Riah Phiyega.
None of them could, or can't, lead the police. This is not a reflection on their general abilities, but the Police Service is a specialised field. Leaders to lead the police need to come from amongst their ranks. The civilian leadership is not taken seriously by the police force, because they have no experience and cannot relate to what officers go through on the ground. If people you lead do not respect you, you are not leading anyone. The Marikana Massacre was a clear demonstration of what happens when the police are completely leaderless.
Corruption in the Police Service is another enormous challenge that you have to overcome, Mr Minister. There is a proverb that goes, "a fish rots from the head down" and in this case it applies to the Police Service's leadership, with Jackie Selebi conniving with big criminals, how can it not have affected the lower ranks? He was caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar, sentenced, and released on suspicious medical grounds. Mr Bheki "Shoot-to-kill" Cele was also removed from the leadership post under allegedly corrupt circumstances due to the leasing scandal.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu J M Mthembu): Bab'uMncwango, unomzuzu owodwa osele. Ake sibuze nombuzo-ke, ngubani u-Shoot-to-kill?
English:
Mr M A MNCWANGO: It is a nickname of one, hon Chair.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Where did he get that nickname? [Interjections.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO: He gave it to himself.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Alright.
Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, is it parliamentary to ask questions from the Chair? [Interjections.] No! It is not just, "Continue", Chairperson, really. On a point of order, this is not ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): He has answered the question. Sit down.
Ms A STEYN: I won't. [Interjections.] Chair, it is not ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Would you mind sitting down? Member Mncwango did not have any difficulty with the question. He did answer the question. Sit down, then. Thank you very much.
Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, I want this please to be recorded. I don't want you to tell me to sit down. You cannot ask questions from the Chair. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): The hon Mncwango has answered the question – no problem. He didn't have any difficulties. He is still at the podium. In fact, you have wasted his time. Continue, Mr Mncwango.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
So, in such circumstances, what could be expected of the lower ranks of the Police Service? What would raise their morale if their top leaders are not showing exemplary leadership?
Some other consequences of the leadership void are clear. Police brutality statistics around the country are absolutely appalling. Police officers were involved in the attack and death of Mido Macia, a Mozambican taxi driver, killed in police custody in 2013. Recently police were accused of beating a 21-year-old woman to death – and there are many more open cases against the police. It seems that there is a wave of police violence that has been unleashed on our citizens.
South Africa needs a professional, highly motivated Police Service, not a police force, to fight the scourge of crime. It was wrong for the government to have allowed the former commissioner to pull the police back into its old military formation and approach to dealing with crime. Let us go back to the service mode and move away from a military approach to dealing with crime.
The IFP supports the budget. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM
Mr M A MNCWANGO
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 210
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Chairperson, Minister and Deputy Minister of Police, the chairperson of the portfolio committee, let me start by saying that the NFP wishes to extend its concern at the high levels of crime, where South Africans are no longer safe.
Freedom can only be achieved if all South Africans live in a free, safe and secure environment. Contrary to reports, crime is on the rise in South Africa. Never a day goes by without our hearing of serious and violent crimes, including murder, rape, domestic violence and armed robbery being experienced by any of the citizens of South Africa.
However, let me commend the new Minister, the chairperson of the portfolio committee and all members who were responsible for drafting the strategic plan and for the progress they are hoping to make in making South Africa a free and safe country for all of us to live in, side by side. Whilst we must acknowledge that attempts are being made – or at least, are being talked about – the success rate still remains relatively low.
Whilst we have been making these suggestions, coming from the top, I must advise that cascading this information from the top down to the bottom seems to be a serious concern. When one enters a police station, what one sees and experiences are totally different from what we want to achieve for the people of this country. Let me go further to say, you would be lucky to get one telephone call from the detective and you would be very, very lucky to get two telephone calls from the detective, or if you ever meet a detective after having lodged a complaint at a police station.
Community participation is minimal, due to a lack of confidence and trust in the police in general. Now, the question one needs to ask is: Why is this the case? The answer is very simple. It is as a result of the trust that they have lost because of fraud, corruption and maladministration by the police in general. However, I am confident that the Fifth Parliament of the Republic of South Africa will be different from the previous four Parliaments and that there will certainly be constructive engagement and changes that will address the needs and concerns of our South Africans in terms of their safety.
Let us not be misled by assuming the crime rate is declining. On the contrary, many, many victims fail to report these cases. As a result, one believes that the rate is coming down.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon Shaik-Emam, you have 30 seconds to wind up.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thirty seconds? Thank you, sir. Three minutes is really very little time!
Let me take this opportunity to say to the hon Minister that we have trust and we have confidence. The lives of 52 million South Africans are in your safe and secure hands. I hope that you will do your very best to endeavour that all South Africans live side by side in a safe and secure environment and that the dignity of and trust in the police force is reinstated. Thank you, hon Chair. [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
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Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 211
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, my Police Minister, Minister Nhleko, all Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, my chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, hon Beukman, hon Members of Parliament, all MECs from provinces, the National Commissioner of Police, Mme Phiyega, Secretary of Police, Executive Director of Ipid, Ntate McBride, chairperson of the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, Psira, and the Psira leadership present here, members of Community Policing Forums, CPFs, our distinguished guests ladies and gentlemen, our greatest icon, the late former President Nelson Mandela, once said:
Our achievements, as the ANC-led government are very significant. We often fail to claim our victories. At the same time, however, it is the mark of a serious political movement and government that we are prepared to be open, honest, and self-critical where necessary.
Today, on behalf of the SA Police Service, SAPS, we, as the Ministry of Police, arise in front of all South Africans to proclaim that our organisation, the SA Police Service, supported by the ANC-led government, has indeed for the past 20 years continued to fulfil and immediately fix where it fails in its constitutional mandate. [Applause.]
Therefore, we will not be apologetic about the strides that the Department of Police has made thus far. Together with the police and the people of South Africa, we are to move South Africa forward and to unite all South Africans against all types of crime. We will not be ashamed to admit where we have not done very well. Most importantly, we will show vividly how we have been intervening to remedy those faults and shortcomings as the SA Police Service.
The President has made two critical calls in accordance with our electoral mandate, these being: We need to accelerate the implementation of radical socio-economic transformation; and central to this radical transformation agenda is the prioritisation of youth empowerment and employment.
We all know that more than 20 years ago, when our young black youth wanted to join the police force, they were refused solely because they did not have, amongst others, a driver's license. This strict requirement discriminated against these young people, in particular those who came from rural communities, who wished and had great potential to be good police officers.
We can now announce that the department has taken a conscious decision to waive the driver's license as a requirement for enlistment in the SAPS for 10% of the new recruits. In addition, all members of the SA Police Service are now supported in order to get driver's licenses, through the SAPS/Sasseta K53 Driver Training Programme, for the first time since 1913 ... [Applause.] ... and this is done at the SAPS Benoni and Bishop Lavis SAPS Academies, which are also testing stations for the SA Police Service.
In this instance, we wish to convey our sincerest appreciation to the Safety and Security Sector Education and Training Authority, Sasseta, and our progressive businesspeople, like Mr Mpengesi, who have partnered with the SA Police Service to train about 1 000 members for the 2013-2014 financial year. One thousand five hundred more will be trained for the 2014-2015 financial year.
I am talking about training to drive, because in some instances we complain about not having resources, like cars, at police stations. However, when you visit police stations you would see a lot of cars parked outside. The problem is that when some of these youngsters were recruited into the Police Service, they did not have driver's licences. They had to get them in any way they could in order for them to be enlisted into the Police Service.
As a result, when you give them a vehicle to drive to a scene, they would take something like 30 to 40 minutes just to reach a destination 5 minutes away because of the fact that they cannot drive properly. The SA Police Service leadership always aligns itself with the conscience and soul of the nation, one that is desperately seeking employment and a better life in South Africa.
Currently, the SA Police Service has over 40 000 reservists. Under normal circumstances reservists are meant to be full-time workers who are employed somewhere else, who from time-to-time would volunteer their time to work for and support the SA Police Service in their operations. However, the reality of the matter is that 90% of the reservists that we currently have are unemployed, and thus depend solely on the stipends and incentives they get from local police stations. In some instances they receive stipends from local MECs' offices.
As mandated by the Minister of Police to oversee the administration and visible policing programmes of the SA Police Service, I actively support the notion that no reservist who has a good standing in terms of the law will be thrown out into the streets. It is for this reason that the Minister and I support the SAPS' reservist pilot project. Thanks to the Premier of the Free State, Premier Magashule, who came up with this concept when a female doctor was raped two years ago at Pelonomi Hospital and it was revealed that the perpetrators were non-South Africans.
The disservice that we are done by the private security industry at times is such that they employ people who are not registered in the country's database, when it makes it very difficult for our police to apprehend perpetrators as they are non-registered foreign individuals. Thank you very much for that idea.
This project solely concerns itself with retraining the reservists as security guards at government buildings instead of using unknown and unvetted security guards. So far 1 572 reservists, to be precise, have been recruited and retrained and they are all employed under the Public Service Act, not under the South African Police Service Act.
Moving forward with this pilot project, we will further engage and invite other sister departments to partner with the SA Police Service so that all these 40 000-plus reservists are retrained and employed as security guards for government buildings, and to secure the outskirts of big malls, amongst others. So, we will have to revisit the current national instruction on the revised reservist system and rectify issues of criteria.
The partnership that the SA Police Service forged with the Department of Basic Education in 2011 has indeed become the epitome and illustrator of the ethos of the "Together we move South Africa forward" strategy of the SA Police Service.
After the formal protocol was launched on 6 August 2013, we have this far visited five provinces, starting with my own province, of course, the Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Eastern Cape, and Mpumalanga. In the process, we brought various stakeholders and government departments together to roll out the school safety community outreach programmes in provinces.
This programme is helping to raise awareness amongst children and young learners regarding crime and violence, substance abuse, Satanism, and other social ills, and their impact on individuals, families and their education. We will also be strengthening community sectors with the tools to hold us accountable and to ensure that this SAPS Schools Safety Outreach Programme becomes effective and sustainable.
I will be approaching and requesting the Minister of Monitoring and Evaluation to assist us with the development of a user-friendly monitoring tool to quickly remedy the teething problems encountered in the roll-out of this programme, especially around our environment at school.
In the same vein, these past 20 years have taught us that the challenges that we still face as government and as a department are as great. We do acknowledge the challenges that we come across, as government in general, and as SA Police Service in particular.
We thus wholeheartedly commit ourselves, as the Department of Police, to the National Development Plan: Vision 2030 to proactively tackle our challenges head-on and without fear. I can safely say in this House and to the public at large that without this NDP Vision 2030, we would have not been able to identify, articulate and remedy our mistakes and flaws, as the SA Police Service. [Interjections.]
I think that most of the issues have been alluded to by the Minister. Let me use my few remaining minutes to respond to some of the issues that were raised by people who do not understand what is happening. Unfortunately, it is due to the nature of the environment that we live in. Some people live somewhere in Sandton or whatever –
IsiXhosa:
Thina sihlala elokishini.
English:
When we talk about crime, we are talking about something that we know how it occurs. Some of us ...
Sesotho:
Modulasetulo, re tseba ka ho utlwa ka letlalo; ha re bo tsebe ka ho bo bala. O utlwe ho thwe botlokotsebe mona; botlokotsebe mane!
Ho a makatsa ... it is totally h amazing ... hore kajeno lena e be leloko le hlomphehang la DA le tlo bua ka hore – ha ke batle ho bua ka tsa Letona. Letona le tla ikarabella.
English:
I am going to talk particularly about crime in this province. Instead of the police being supported by the DA in this province, they are not supported. Hence, you discover that each and every month we have more than five police officers killed in this province ... [Interjections.] ... because of the fact that they do not get support from the government of this province. Instead of taking money wasted on a commission somewhere in Langa, take that money and support the police in fighting crime. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Deputy Minister, just hold on! What is your point of order, madam?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chair, I would ask you to please check if the Deputy Minister is not totally out of line in that she knows full well that SAPS is a national competency.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): What is the point of order, madam?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: She is misleading the House, sir!
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M MTHEMBU): On what, apparently, that she has raised? [Interjections.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: She is making the claim that the DA government of the Western Cape is not protecting the police and she is claiming that it is somehow a political problem, when in fact the SAPS is a national competency, which point she is blindly ignoring. [Interjections.]
Sesotho:
MOTLATSA LETONA LA SEPOLESA: O a bona Modulasetulo, ha e ne e le hore re batla ho a laola mapolesa mane kantorong ya naha feela, re ke be re se na ntho eo re e bitsang Letona la Sepolesa la Profensi [MEC for Police]. Ditho tsa Makgotla a Phethahatso kapa [or] Matona a Profensi [MECs] a mono ho sheba hore mapolesa a etsa mosebetsi ka tsela, le ho tshehetsa mapolesa ka hara profensi. [Mahofi.] Ha le sa tshehetse mapolesa, a tla dula a ntse a bolawa mme a na le mathata ao a nang le ona. [Kena hanong.] Tshwene ha e ipone makopo, ka Sesotho. Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. [Mahofi.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you, Deputy Minister. Can we just deal with one issue? Members, we all have a responsibility to see our country through. [Interjections.] That is our responsibility! Let us just deal with another issue that has a reason. We would like to remind all members ... [Interjections.]
Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to know if it is parliamentary for the Chairperson to take part in the debate. It is the second time now that you are taking part in this debate.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Can you first hear me, because you have not even heard what I was saying. Can you please sit down ... [Interjections.] It is not a debate.
Ms A STEYN: I do not want to hear, because you are not making a speech... [Interjections.] You are chairing a committee.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member, sit down, please! What I wanted to say is that we should refer to one another with respect. If we choose to use nicknames - like in a previous speech by one member, where a member of this House was referred to as "Shoot-to-kill," - that might compromise the decorum of the House. [Interjections.]
The said member is an honourable member of this House, and his name is hon member Bheki Cele. This is an issue that I wanted to speak to, which is what Rule 61 enjoins all of us to do. Thank you very much; that matter has been dealt with.
CW/ Dr P J GROENEWALD
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,23 Jul 2014,"Take 212 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-212] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu)
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 212
Afrikaans:
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, eintlik is hierdie 'n baie ernstige debat. Ek wil begin deur te sê die VF Plus salueer die 77 lede – manne en vroue – wat volgens die jaarverslag gesterf het in die uitvoering van hul pligte en ook diegene wat hierdie jaar reeds die hoogste prys betaal het om ons as burgers van Suid-Afrika te probeer beskerm. Ons salueer ook daardie lede – manne en vroue in uniform – vir wie dit werklik nog 'n passie is om werk te doen om die gemeenskap te dien, wat goeie werk doen.
Agb Minister, u is nuut. U gaan nog baie ontnugterings in u tydperk ervaar. Ek wil begin om te sê die VF Plus verwelkom ook die antwoord wat u my in die NV gegee het aangaande my vraag oor plaasmoorde, dat u die belangrikheid daarvan besef, volgens u antwoord, en dat u ook verklaar dat dit deel van die strategie van prioriteitmisdaadbekamping in Suid-Afrika sal wees. Ons verwelkom dit, maar, agb Minister, wanneer is 'n polisiediens 'n goeie diens vir sy mense? Dit gebeur slegs as die publiek vertroue het in die lede van die polisie. Dan wil ek vir u sê, agb Minister, as jy 'n koerant sien met opskrifte wat lui, "Polisie skop en slaan gesin oor rybewys", is dit skokkend. Die publiek kan dan nie vertroue hê in die polisie nie.
As ons gaan kyk na die statistiek vrygestel deur die Onafhanklike Polisie-ondersoekdirektoraat, Opod, sien ons, volgens die laaste jaarverslag, dat 927 gevalle van – kan ons sê – geweld is wat deur polisielede op die publiek gebruik is. Ek wil vandag 'n beroep op u doen. Dit moet die absolute prioriteit wees - die mense van Suid-Afrika moet voel dat hulle beskerm word.
English:
They must feel that the Police Service is there to protect them, not to attack them.
Afrikaans:
Laastens wil ek sê, en aankondig, agb Minister, dat die VF Plus vandag 'n klag gaan indien by die Openbare Beskermer vir die ondersoek na die regskoste van Jackie Selebi. Ek het reeds verlede jaar in September gevra, en ek vra al hoeveel jaar, wanneer daardie geld terugbetaal gaan word. 'n Bedrag van R17,5 miljoen plus rente moet terugbetaal word. Dit is tyd dat hy begin betaal vir sy misdade. Ek dank u.
Rev K R J MESHOE
Dr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 212
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP is concerned about the conviction rate that is so low in our country. One of the reasons would be poor training that leads to poor investigations. Corruption in the police negatively affects the morale of those officers who are committed to protecting our people and doing their best to making our streets safer. Hon Minister, I therefore plead with you to root out criminals and corrupt officers in police uniform.
The ACDP is also concerned about the increasing number of police officers who are killed by criminals, some of whom dressed in police uniform. The killing of MajGen Tirhani Maswanganyi last year is even more worrying because some corrupt police officers have allegedly been implicated in his assassination. It was reported that the late Maj Gen Maswanganyi, who was a trusted and known corruption buster, was busy investigating cases involving corrupt police officers before he was killed. The man who pleaded guilty to killing this hero and great example in the community has implicated police officers who are reported to have been plotting to kill even the investigators probing Maswanganyi's death. Hon Minister, please do not allow an undesirable new culture to develop, where detectives and investigators would need protection from corrupt police officers in the SAPS itself.
The ACDP says that all criminals in police uniform should be purged. There should be no mercy for police officers who commit serious crimes, which include colluding with criminals against their own colleagues. What an indictment when a columnist says:
When I am driving at night and see those flashing blue lights, a fist of fear tightens around my gut ... the SAPS brand has been irreparably damaged, for me. The trust is gone, and now I look at the police and the criminals and wonder if there is any difference. Apart, that is, from the fact that some of them happen to wear a uniform.
How will community members who are always asked to work with the police know how to differentiate between a genuine police officer and a police officer who is a criminal? My plea and my call to the hon Minister is to please clean up the SAPS to ensure that trust in the police by members of the community can be restored and can grow because they are not involved in any acts of criminality.
Many of today's newspapers have as their main articles stories of car hijackings involving children and also stories of rape. The most tragic story is about a hijacking that took place in Reiger Park this past weekend, where hijackers drove off with a four-year-old boy dangling from his mother's car as his foot was trapped in a seatbelt. The hijacked car was found abandoned one and a half hours later 4 km down the road and the innocent child dead next to the car. The ACDP wants to convey its deepest sympathy to Taegrin's parents, Chantel and Elwin Morris, as well as all their relatives and friends. Thank you.
Mme M A MOLEBATSI
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 Aug 2014,"Take 213 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-213] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Rev K R J MESHOE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 213
Setswana:
Mme M A MOLEBATSI: Motlotlegi Mmusakgotla, Ditona le Batlatsa Tona ba ba tlotlegang, Lefapha la Sepodisi, Maloko a a tlotlegang a Palamente, baeng le Maaforikaborwa ka kakaretso, ntetleng bagaetsho ke le dumediseng. Nte, mo boemong jwa ANC, ke leboge bagaetsho; batlhophi botlhe ba ba neng ba tswa ka bontsi jo bo makatsang ka 7 Motsheganong monongwaga, ba ya go tlhopa ANC gore e tswelele e buse Aforikaborwa. Re a re kwa go bona, le kamoso bagaetsho.
English:
The national struggle for freedom was the critical, overarching vehicle to bring about peace, security and stability to our society. In dealing with issues of crime, the ANC proceeds from the premise that a rising quality of life also means improvement in the safety and security of the citizens in their homes and the environment where they live, work and engage in extramural activities. As was mentioned, the National Development Plan, NDP, states that the re-establishment of specialised units must be prioritised. The SA Police Service Act states that specialised units will be capacitated during the 2014-15 financial year and across the medium term, enhancing the following specialised capabilities: narcotics, organised crime, commercial crime, checking units and vehicle crime investigations.
The SA Police Service will also focus on enhancing the cyber-crime capability, including the advancement of the readiness of local police stations. Before I go further, let me say this to hon Kohler-Barnard, I am looking forward to the day you will stand up and list the good that is done by the SA Police Service, not only the negatives. It is very unfair to them, especially the hard-working ones, the people who lay down their lives, and sometimes even die for us, for me and you to be able to sleep. It is very unfair.
Setswana:
Tokomane ya 8 Ferikgong 2014 ya ANC, e tiisa tshireletso ya bana kgatlhanong le tirisodikgoka ya mo malapeng, le go tlisa ntwa kgatlhanong le go tlhokofadiwa ga bana le basadi mo nageng ya rona.
English:
During the state of the nation address delivered in June 2014, President Jacob Zuma noted that some progress has been made over the past five years in reducing the level of serious crime such as murder, aggravated robbery, crime against women and children and other vulnerable groups, but it remains unacceptably high. The President further stated that the government would work to further reduce the levels of crime. Cumulatively, South Africa is reducing crime and this is happening against the population growth. The Freedom Charter says, "There shall be security and comfort." We urge the police to leave no stone unturned when dealing with criminals.
Setswana:
Motlotlegi Mmusakgotla, dikgolegelo tsa rona di tletse di a phophoma. Bagolegwa ga ba a tsena ba itsamaisa; ba tshwerwe ke sepodisi sa rona. Ka jalo, re le ANC re a se akgola. Re a re, tau di senang seboka, di siiwa ke none e tlhotsa.
English:
Contact crime is the biggest contributor to the total reported crimes. The contact is usually of a violent nature. The SA Police Service has had some successes in reducing serious crime over the past nine years. However, contact crime increased in the 2012-13 financial year compared to the previous financial year, 2011-12. Some of the noted crimes are as follows: Total sexual offences reduced by 10,9% over 9 years; total sexual offences reduced by 16,6% during the past 4 years; total sexual offences reduced by 0,4% during the past financial year; murder reduced by 27,2% over 9 years; murder reduced by 16,6% during the past 4 years; murder increased by 0,6% during the past financial year; attempted murder reduced by 51,7% over 9 years; attempted murder reduced by 16,8% during the past 4 years; and attempted murder increased by 1,2% during the past financial year. I can go on and on.
We, as the ANC, would like to commend the men and women in blue for their hard work. To them we say, unity is strength and ...
Afrikaans:
Eendrag maak mag. [There is strength in unity.][Applause.]
English:
As the ANC, we call for a review of the resource allocation guide, RAC. When we visited the police stations, the numbers of visible policing members, detectives and crime intelligence members have been insufficient to cover the population they were intended to service. Of great concern is the type of vehicles allocated to different areas, for example, a sedan allocated to a mountainous area or a 4x4 allocated to an area with tarred roads.
Setswana:
Motl Mmusakgotla, ka ngwaga wa 2012, re le komiti re ne ra nna le Detective Dialogue e e tlileng ka ditshitshinyo, mme morago Tona ya pele ya Sepodisi, motlotlegi Nathi Mthethwa, o ne a goeletsa ngwaga wa matseka. Tsotlhe tse, di dirilwe gore matseka a katisiwe ka tshwanelo, mme go tshwarwa ga basenyi go ne ga tlhatloga. Re akgola sepodisi ka go re ba tswelele ba dire ka natla.
English:
The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, commonly known as the Hawks, was established in terms of the South African Police Service Amendment Act to prevent, combat and investigate national priority offences. In this regard, the operational priorities of Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, are focused on crimes such as corruption and serious economic crimes.
Setswana:
Tokomane ya NDP gape e tiisa go aga Aforikaborwa e e botoka; Aforika e e botoka; le lefatshe le le botoka. E re pele ke feleletsa ke ye kwa go motlotlegi Twala.
English:
Hon Twala speaks of confusion. I want to say to him that there is no confusion. The confusion is with him not wearing a red overall, gumboots and helmet. That is where the confusion is, not with anything else. [Interjections.]
Setswana:
Nte ke tseye tšhono eno go goeletsa le go lopa bagaetsho mo nageng yotlhe gore re thuseng sepodisi sa rona ka dinako tsotlhe. Mabogo dinku a thebana.
Afrikaans:
Agb Groenewald, hierdie ANC regeer.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Ek weet dit! Dis 'n jammerte! [Gelag.] [I know that! What a pity! [Laughter.]]
Me M A MOLEBATSI: Hierdie ANC is die enigste politieke party wat meer as 'n honderd jaar oud is, en dit is om daardie rede dat hierdie ANC altyd hierdie land gaan regeer, tot Piet kom. [Apploue] [Gelag.] So sê die kiesers ook. [Hon Groenewald, this ANC governs. It is the only party that is over a century old. It is for that reason that the ANC will government this country until kingdom come. The voters say so too. [Applause.] [Laughter.]]
Setswana:
Batho ba ba tlolang molao ke bana ba rona, ke bana ba baagisane ba rona. A re emeleleng, re ba senoleng gore re dire tiro ya sepodisi botlhofo. Gape, a re tlogeleng go reka dilo tse di utswitsweng.
English:
Indeed, South Africa is a better place than it was before 1994. Together with the ANC, we will move South Africa forward. The ANC supports this budget to make South Africa safer. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M M TSHISHONGA
Ms M A MOLEBATSI
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 213
Mr M M TSHISHONGA: Hon members, I want to tabulate or list the good that you do, but it is not my duty, Mr Minister, it is your duty to do so. The hon Members of Parliament on this side have said a lot of things, which I am not going to repeat, but Agang is concerned about these three. Hon Chair, just remind me when I'm left with five minutes. [Laughter.]
The tragedy in this world is not the bad people who do bad things because they know exactly what they are doing, but only the good ones who are, appallingly, silent when bad things are happening. The knife in the hands of a butcher is a good weapon, or a safe weapon, but in the hands of a robber, or a tsotsi, it becomes a dangerous weapon. So is the firearm in the hands of a mentally demented police officer. All the police officers who are not doing their job in the context of the rule of law and integrity must be rooted out. Trigger happy police officers must be removed from the service.
Agang condemns the killing that happens outside the rule of law and integrity. Apart from that there are good things that you are doing, but it is our duty to highlight issues. It is not criticism, it is observation. We are highlighting that so that you pay could pay attention and rectify them. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
The TEMPORARAY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): You still had a litte time, but you are done now.
Mr Z N MBHELE
Mr M M TSHISHONGA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 214
IsiZulu:
Mnu Z N MBHELE: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe noSekela Ngqongqoshe, sihlalo wekomidi namalungu alo kanye nabahlonishwa abakhona ...
English:
... I would like to start by acknowledging the presence in the public gallery of my guest to this debate, Mr Ralph Jansen, a resident of my constituency and the head co-ordinator of the Neighbourhood Watch in Heideveld. His tireless work as a community leader is an inspiring example of the important role that active citizens can play in increasing public safety.
The work of the Heideveld Neighbourhood Watch underscores the importance of a whole-of-society approach that brings together governments and communities in the fight against crime. I hope that Mr Jansen's presence here today will remind us of the crucial need for partnerships that ensure greater security in communities and the fact that the Police Service itself needs to be a credible and trustworthy partner in those efforts in order to promote good relations between the police and the communities they serve. I watched the Minister's interview on the View from the House programme this morning in which he echoed these sentiments and I hope that they will be seen through to clear action.
Chairperson, the National Development Plan, NDP, identifies the professionalisation of the Police Service as a key priority to ensure its competence and responsiveness. It was encouraging to hear the Minister's and National Police Commissioner's assurances during the budget briefing process that they were indeed committed to achieving this.
A professional Police Service is not only essential to a strong criminal justice system that effectively deters and punishes criminality, but is also vital to inspire confidence in the Police Service among the public. Without this confidence, citizens distrust and fear the police and are less inclined to report crime or offer co-operation in police work.
On this score of public trust and confidence, we still have a long way to go before we can say that we have a comprehensively professional Police Service. A Human Sciences Research Council social attitudes survey published in 2011 found that 66% of adult South Africans believed corruption to be a widespread problem in the police, with only 41% of those surveyed having some level of trust in the police.
More worryingly, a future fact survey conducted in 2012 found that 35% of South Africans interviewed admitted to being scared of the police, with this figure rising to 40% in poorer communities. This is not a good story to tell. It should be criminals who fear the police, not law-abiding citizens.
These perceptions of systemic police corruption and attitudes of distrust and fear among the public are an indictment of the SAPS management's past ineffectiveness to ensure sufficiently strong accountability in the Police Service for misconduct and criminality. Without strong accountability measures to guarantee sanctions for wrongdoing by police officers, a culture of impunity takes root and thrives on the oxygen of systemic negligence and, as the hon Kohler-Barnard pointed out earlier, we've had many years of that, starting from the top.
Weak accountability in effect hinders progress towards the achievement of a professional Police Service. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, is designed to be the spearhead of such accountability measures to strike at the heart of a culture of impunity for police conduct and criminality and unfortunately so far it has been off to a shaky start.
The DA remains deeply concerned about vacancies in senior posts and past underspending in the institution as this impedes the Ipid's ability to function optimally. In addition, concerns linger that the Ipid's overall budget allocation is insufficient for it to fulfil its mandate once it reaches full operational capacity.
Like the Civilian Secretariat for Police, the department will need more money in future to advance the goal of realising the professionalisation of the SAPS through strong accountability. We trust that the Minister will consider these concerns seriously in future appropriations to minimise the risk of stagnation in the challenging process of transforming the Police Service to make its members more competent, ethical and accountable.
Chairperson, we welcome the u-turn that was made during a budget briefing by the Ipid's executive director that the institution has withdrawn its stated aim in this year's annual performance plan to seek a legislative amendment that would narrow its mandate to excluding common assault because "investigators were kept quite busy with these less serious cases". This argument was deeply flawed and undermined the NDP's objective of a professionalised and accountable Police Service because it is precisely that caseload of assault complaints, and many others for which complaints are not lodged, that feeds the perceptions and attitudes spoken about earlier, of citizens not trusting and in fact fearing the police. I myself, as a citizen who has been at the receiving end of abuse of power by the police, would deem it to be untenable to think that we should ever allow such incidents to fall off the radar of the Ipid's work.
We were also pleased to hear that the Ipid's report on the investigation into the National Police Commissioner for allegedly tipping off the Western Cape Provincial Police Commissioner about a Hawks investigation of which he was the subject has been completed and sent to the National Prosecuting Authority for decision.
The DA in the portfolio committees of Police and Justice and Correctional Services will monitor progress on this issue very carefully to ensure that the ends of justice are served and accountability is not undermined. This matter must be seen in the light of the NDP's imperative for a professionalised and accountable Police Service, and Parliament must play its role to help realise that.
As we mark 20 years of freedom, let us not falter in ensuring that we increasingly secure for all citizens the right to live in freedom, freedom from fear and freedom from violence. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J J MAAKE
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-215] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Mr Z N MBHELE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 215
Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, my Minister and Deputy Minister, the National Police Commissioner, hon members, the resolutions of the ANC at the Mangaung conference reiterated that South Africa must have a single Police Service. The resolutions also recognised the fact that the conditions of service in the SA Police Service, SAPS, are not satisfactory and the lower levels need attention. It goes further to state that the National Police Commissioner should ensure the implementation of general training, operational and disciplinary standards in relation to policing to foster synergy, uniformity and consistency throughout the Republic.
The conference also noted that the transformation of the security departments has, in the main, been hampered by middle management that continues to resist change and targets progressive personnel for dismissal. In addition, therefore, the tools of transformation and employment equity should be directed at transforming the middle management of security services.
The National Development Plan, NDP, also one of the documents from which the department derives its mandate, states that we will fall asleep without fear, and listen to the rain on the roof. We will ensure that all people live safely, with an independent and fair criminal justice system. On building safer communities, Chapter 12 of the NDP states as its objectives:
In 2030 people living in South Africa feel safe and have no fear of crime. They feel safe at home, at school and at work, and they enjoy an active community life free of fear. Women can walk freely in the street and the children can play safely outside. The Police Service is a well-resourced, professional institution staffed by highly-skilled officers who value their work, serve the community, safeguard lives and property without discrimination, protect the peaceful against violence, and respect the rights of all to equality and justice.
One of the actions for attaining this objective is the demilitarisation of the police force and the training of all police personnel in professional police ethics and practice.
Having said all of the aforegoing, as identified by my organisation, which by the way is the ruling party in this country, which represents the majority of our people in this country ... [Interjections.] ... the opposition needs to be reminded that, as they are also South African citizens, we also serve their interests, whether they like it or not.
HON MEMBERS: Yes! Yes!
Mr J J MAAKE: If a question was asked of the opposition in the House right now, who of you would like to be a policeman or policewoman, surely none of them would respond positively. If we ask ourselves this question, it will make us understand what being a policeman really is. Our men and women in blue are the first line of defence, and we must therefore acknowledge this and be proud of them. They are killed in the line of duty trying to protect us and make us feel safe. Therefore, we must all adopt the slogan, which I am told has been adopted by the Mpumalanga province, "You kill the police, you kill the community."
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Mr J J MAAKE: Notwithstanding the fact that in the past five years progress has been made in reducing the levels of serious crime such as murder, aggravated robbery, and crimes against vulnerable groups, especially women, children and people with disabilities, crime levels remain unacceptably high, especially serious and violent crimes. The opposition needs to be reminded. They consciously or unconsciously become nostalgic for the long-past apartheid set-up. [Interjections.] During this time, crime was minimal or even nonexistent in the protected white areas.
This was the time of the Group Areas Act, the period of permits for Africans, the period of the "nagpas" ... [Interjections.] ... when just walking in town at night was a criminal offence that could land you in jail, where you could then be sold to farmers at Bethal to dig "mazambane". [Laughter.] Just walking in town at night ...
On the other hand, we had a certain level of crime in the townships and villages. Most of the crimes committed against us in the townships were by the regime itself. [Interjections.] I don't know if it would be parliamentary, but I need to say it.
HON MEMBERS: Yes, say it!
Mr J J MAAKE: Some white vigilantes would just meet you in the street and assault you.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Mr J J MAAKE: The crime being, and I'll open quotes for the vigilantes ...
Afrikaans:
"Hoekom is jy so swart en jou hare so kort? Is jy mal?" [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
This type of criminality was prevalent everywhere in this country at the time. It therefore stands to reason that this section of the population, who were previously protected, who had their own hospitals, bus stops, restaurants, swimming pools and toilets would have a skewed understanding and perception of crime and its levels. [Interjections.]
Crime impacts negatively on the country's socioeconomic development and therefore undermines people's wellbeing and their ability to achieve their full potential. This therefore means that the capacity of the developmental state requires immediate enhancement in the areas of forensics, detective investigation and prosecuting services to reduce the high levels of crime and corruption. [Interjections.]
The 2010 to 2014 strategic plan of the department identified, among others, the enhancement of detection services as key operational and organisational priorities. This refers to the effective investigation of crime by improving detection and court-ready case docket rates on serious crimes. This will increase the capacity and professionalism of the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigations and improve forensic services and, above all, establish specialised units. The specialised units will help to improve crime intelligence relating to serious crime, drug and people-smuggling syndicates and human trafficking. Although there were some problems with this division of the SAPS, the national commissioner has taken the division under her wing in order to stabilise it. We are therefore expecting positive results soon. The specialised units will also address crimes against women and children.
Let me point out, however, that the firearms confiscated in Norwood, Johannesburg, was as a result of work that crime intelligence delivered. The drug bust in KwaZulu-Natal came from information that was provided by crime intelligence. [Applause.] The Crime Intelligence Division generated over 37 000 reports in 2012-13 and 29 000 reports in 2013-14, and will generate another 32 000 operations during 2014-15.
Our Visible Policing Division is the biggest division in the SAPS, with over 106 526 members. We rely on these men and women in blue to do the right thing. Our main expenditure of the police budget is, rightly, on visible policing, at over 50% of the SAPS' budget. For 2014-15, this is over R37 billion. This is an increase of over 5,7% from the 2013-14 financial year. The Visible Policing programme has seen the mobilisation of South Africans against crime through izimbizo.
This budget will go towards the Crime Prevention programme, the Railway Police, K9 units, the mounted police unit, the youth, children and gender-based violence units and the Flying Squad. The role of the SAPS in securing our borders is also funded from this budget. Our special intervention teams, like the Public Order Police Units that have been policing some of the service delivery protests throughout the country are also being supported through this budget. This is why we have to invest in resourcing our police to make sure that they have the tools to fight crime effectively anywhere in the country.
The Visible Policing programme is a critical part of the success of the SAPS, when one considers what they deal with, namely over 1,8 million crimes throughout the country; over 175 000 crimes against women and children; and over 49 000 crimes against children. They have dealt with over 206 000 crimes for the unlawful possession of and dealing in drugs. This includes over 76 kg of cocaine, 309 000 mandrax tablets and 178 kg of tik.
As enunciated in the state of the nation address, rural development is a priority of this government. We will make sure that our people in the rural areas in all four corners of this country are safe and feel safe. That is why we have to make sure that rural communities receive support from the Rural Safety Plan and that it is implemented to make them safer. To the hon Groenewald rural safety refers only to the protection of white farmers. He doesn't even think of the villages where our people live. [Interjections.]
The Sector Policing Plan introduced by the SAPS has already started to give us the results we want. To date, sector policing has been implemented in almost all the police precincts around the country. There are only 185 stations left, where we know the SAPS will still implement the strategy. We have no doubt that the work of the Portfolio Committee on Police has demonstrated the accountability-in-action we require from the SAPS to take policing forward.
Our fight against the abuse of women and children continues uninterrupted. We have fought for the reintroduction of the Family Violence, Child Abuse and Sexual Offences Units. We have seen that, in the last financial year, crimes against women and children have been reduced as a result of these units. We cannot stop. We want the SAPS to continue building on these successes. We have seen the number of reported crimes against women decrease by 5%, from 49 550 in 2012-13 to 46 825 in 2013-14.
The opposition always talks about corruption. Let us listen to this, from the horse's mouth, about real corruption within the police force. [Interjections.]
This is a quote from Eugene de Kock:
Late one afternoon in December 1984, C2's Martin Naudé and I were summoned to Head Office by Brigadier Willem Schoon. He ordered each of us to file a false claim. As far as I can remember, one claim was for R46 000; the other for R48 000. After we had written out the claims, Schoon took both of them and I didn't hear of them again. However, Schoon mentioned in passing that the Secret Funds budget had to be used in full, otherwise Parliament would not approve it next time.
[Laughter.] [Applause.] [Interjections.]
We expect the SAPS to deal decisively with the corruption in its ranks. [Interjections.] We are already seeing the SAPS arresting their own colleagues who have engaged in corrupt practices. Our National Police Commissioner is already showing that the anti-corruption units are being reprioritised, and we support her all the way. [Interjections.] If we want to be free, we have to fight corruption. If we want to be free, let's clean our police force of the entire corrupt element. [Interjections.]
Let's listen to another quote from Eugene de Kock. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Yes. Eugene, your brother!
Mr J J MAAKE: He said:
For example, and there will be many more, all the parties held at Vlakplaas over the years – and the generals loved to attend these – were fully subsidised by false claims. Often 80 to 100 people were entertained at the functions. Other units from headquarters frequently used the facility at Vlakplaas. They were also assisted financially.
[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: They are your members! [Interjections.]
Mr J J MAAKE: We have seen the dismissal of 1 017 police officers who have criminal convictions and our National Police Commissioner has acted decisively by dismissing them. We have to call on our comrades in the unions not to defend these corrupt police officers. There is no place in the SAPS for such officers. They should be investigated by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, and the police inspectorate. [Interjections.] Let's support our National Police Commissioner and clean up the SAPS.
I will leave you with another quotation from Eugene de Kock.
[Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon members, there is no problem with your interjecting, but, please, let's not stop the speaker from speaking. Please.
Mr J J MAAKE: Prime Evil, Eugene de Kock, said:
The incidents mentioned above are only the tip of the iceberg. Between 1985 and 1993, numerous claims were filed for Koekemoer. I also had to file a claim of R20 000 on then Col Nick van Rensburg's behalf. He told me that the Commissioner of Police needed R20 000 to manufacture spears for Inkatha.
[Laughter.] [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The opposition is complaining about the Bill that seeks to regulate the private security industry, but the facts that brought about this amending Bill speak for themselves. There are more than 445 000 registered security guards ...
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, is the hon member prepared to take a question from me? [Interjections.] It is a very simple ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Mr Groenewald, just hold it. Hold it. [Interjections.] Hon member Maake, are you prepared to take a question?
Mr J J MAAKE: No.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you.
Mr J J MAAKE: There are more than 445 000 registered security guards, compared to little more than 270 000 armed statutory forces – that is, the SAPS and the SA National Defence Force, SANDF. Who in his or her right mind can allow such an anomaly in his or her country, especially when the majority of the companies are owned by foreigners? [Interjections.] This industry is vulnerable to criminal networks. In 2008, 170 000 guards were vetted through the SAPS' Criminal Records Centre, and 14 729 were flagged as linked to possible criminal activity.
The ANC represents the majority of the South African population. It therefore means that the ANC is the people. The DA hates the ANC, and it is busy teaching, or rather grooming people like ... [Interjections.]
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, the member is lying. I don't hate him. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): What is it, hon member?
Mr J J MCGLUWA: I am saying the hon member is lying. I don't hate him; I love him. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Ah, no, no. Sit down, hon member. [Interjections.] We are in an august House here, where all of us are expected not to speak ill of anyone. You have now said the member is lying. [Interjections.] If you can bring that through a substantive motion, there is no problem. However, until you do so, can you withdraw the word "lying"? [Interjections.] Withdraw the word "lying", until you bring a substantive motion in this regard.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, I withdraw, but the member is really not lying. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Thank you. Sit down. Continue, hon member.
Mr J J MAAKE: The DA hates the ANC and it is busy teaching, or rather grooming hon members like Van Damme and Maimane to hate the ANC. [Interjections.] Simple mathematics tells me that if the DA hates the ANC and the ANC is the majority of our people, then the DA hates the majority and is busy grooming the hon Maimane and Van Damme to hate the people. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Hon member Maake, you have two minutes left to finish your speech. [Interjections.]
Mr J J MAAKE: Thank you. I want to say one thing to the hon Kohler-Barnard. The kind of language that the hon Kohler-Barnard uses in this House shows sheer arrogance ... [Interjections.] ... arrogance of the first order.
An HON MEMBER: She should be thrown out of the House! [Laughter.]
Mr J J MAAKE: The hon Mbhele talks about the impunity of the police. I have just quoted what the police force used to do. [Interjections.] It was a police force! [Interjections.] It was a police force. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu): Order! Order, members! The member is still on the podium.
Mr J J MAAKE: If what they used to do is not impunity, then I don't know what impunity is all about. [Interjections.] The hon Kohler-Barnard talked about people earning positions that they don't qualify for. What she is actually saying, if we are going to talk about those who qualify, according to her, would be those who were in the police in the apartheid state.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, on a point of order: I contend that this member is misleading the House. I have lists of names of members who have not received promotion, and none of them belonged to any previous regime. [Interjections.]
Adv T M MASUTHA: Chair, may I interject? She is not raising a point of order.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I would be asked to be called an "hon member", sir, please.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M J Mthembu): Hon member, can you sit down.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: May I ask that I would be called an "hon member"? "She" is not the cat's mother. [Laughter.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M J Mthembu): Hon member Kohler-Barnard, if you are referring to misleading, then that can be brought through a substantive motion so that we can debate that. Therefore, it can't be a point of order. Bring a substantive motion. Then we will be able, as a House, to see whether, indeed, there was misleading. Thank you very much. Continue, hon member.
Mr J J MAAKE: The IFP is talking about police brutality. I have just quoted Eugene de Kock about R20 000. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: My counting tells me that the member has already exceeded his two minutes. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M J Mthembu): Mr Mncwango, can you sit down. That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Sit down. Hon member Maake, with your 30 seconds remaining, can you wrap up.
Mr J J MAAKE: I have never seen the NFP in our committee. The same applies to the hon Meshoe. The ANC definitely supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jul 2014,"[Take-216] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Mr J J MAAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Monday, 21 July 2014 Take: 216
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I would like to thank hon members for the overwhelming support for this Budget Vote.
I would like to start by responding to a few things. Three years ago there were many rumours and huge speculation about my becoming the National Police Commissioner. The hon member Kohler-Barnard is on public record referring to me as "advocate" at the time. [Laughter.] They were objecting to the perceived or rumoured appointment of "Adv" Nhleko as the National Police Commissioner. Today, I left school in Std 9. [Interjections.] So, that is an interesting contradiction, on the one hand.
Just let me state this to put the matter on public record: Hon Kohler-Barnard, I hold an MSc in Leadership and Change Management from Leeds Metropolitan University in the United Kingdom. [Interjections.] I also do hold what they call a national diploma in labour law at honours level with the Graduate Institute of Management and Technology. So, that matter is out there, and I do not know where you are actually looking. If you want to have a debate, for instance, about what happened with matriculation, we can do that, because it is not true that I left school in Std 9. What happened with matriculation, for example, is a story that I am sure you would not like to hear. It will be the subject matter for another discussion, I suppose. So, I thought just to put that on record, Chair. So, try and look in the correct places, hon Kohler-Barnard.
The one thing that I think we should all learn to do is to respect institutions that help us to observe the rule of law. You cannot have a situation where you have an institution that processes a particular matter, and then it is said that it was decided by one individual, for example. You have professional bodies that process issues in this country. For example, with regard to issues affecting corrections, you have an independent professional body called the Correctional Supervision and Parole Board. You have medical practitioners. In this case that you referred to, hon Kohler-Barnard, there were 13 medical practitioners dealing with that particular matter. To have a Mr Nhleko, for instance, who is so powerful as to instruct the Correctional Supervision and Parole Board as to what to do, as well as suspecting medical practitioners would be a serious matter that would have to be investigated from a professional point of view. We need to be quite careful about these things.
I agree with you, for instance, on the question of the issues of infrastructure affecting the police's service delivery points such as police stations and so on. The Deputy Minister has been tasked with the issue of creating a bond between ourselves and Public Works to begin to look into some of those issues, such as the prioritisation of the construction of new police stations, as well as issues of infrastructure in those particular instances.
Hon Mncwango, I think the question of civilian leadership and so forth is an endless debate. I can tell you this: If we are not careful, we will end up with a situation where, in this very portfolio, Members of Parliament should not say a word about the issues of policing because they do not have a police background. So, I am simply saying that it is an ongoing matter.
On the question of police brutality that you raised, there are two things that I want to say. The one is that I think we should be clear that we do not have a prevalent culture of police brutality in South Africa. We have incidences, isolated incidences of police brutality, so the Mido Macia case is exactly one of those. What is interesting, though, is that in response to each given incident, we do undertake our work in terms of investigating those particular matters and then acting accordingly. So, you will remember, for instance, in the recent past, the eight implicated policemen who had been fired from the Police Service, even before the instruction came from the court. In fact, if you were to look at the trends within the Public Service, I think we have done very well in terms of the investigation and processing of the matter, as well as the subsequent sort of verdict to get those particular members out of the Police Service.
Rev Meshoe, I would agree with the concern raised about the question of the conviction rate. However, it is precisely the reason why we are putting quite a lot of emphasis on the question of strengthening our co-ordinating mechanisms in the criminal justice cluster as a whole, so that from arrest and processing to sentencing you have quite tightly co-ordinated activity. So, I think you have a point. Harping on the negative... You have a point.
You see, hon members, there is some danger here, and I think this is what the Deputy Minister was trying to convey. The danger is this: If we do not value the work of the police, nobody else out there is going to value the contribution of the police in our society. So, you will have these killings in the Western Cape, for instance, as part of the backlash, precisely because of the message that we churn out at the political level. So, we need to be careful. We need to be quite responsible in doing so.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J M Mthembu):Hon Minister, you have 30 seconds in which to wrap up.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Chairperson.
Lastly, hon Mbhele, I really like your contribution. I think it was quite constructive and so forth. All I can say is, maintain your sanity, because I think that will assist all of us in terms of tackling the matters before us.
Therefore, Chair, all we are asking for is, with this kind of support that we received, that each and every one of us, as members of this country, to do our bit to ensure that we not only support the work of the police, but also work with the police to ensure that we create a safe and stable environment. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 12:32.
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