Hansard: Second Reading debate: Appropriation Bill

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 13 Jun 2006

Summary

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Minutes

TUESDAY, 13 JUNE 2006

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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 14:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

WELCOMING OF INDIAN DELEGATION

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I wish to acknowledge the special guests we have in the public gallery this afternoon. I welcome His Excellency Mr Suresh Pachouri, Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs, Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions of India and his delegation. You are welcome. [Applause.]

SMALL BUSINESS TAX AMNESTY AND AMENDMENT OF TAXATION LAWS BILL

(Introduction)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill of 2006. The purpose of this Bill is to begin fulfilling the tax promises televised to the public in my Budget Speech on 15 February 2006.

The Bill is designed firstly to enact the full range of changes to rates brackets and monetary thresholds all of which provide substantial tax relief for middle-and lower-income taxpayers; secondly, to introduce a comprehensive tax amnesty for small businesses in both the formal and the informal sectors; and thirdly, to simplify municipal tax administration.

The most notable aspect of the Bill involves the small business tax amnesty. But before turning to the amnesty in detail, it bears repeating that the 2005 economic growth and enhanced revenue administration have once again exceeded expectations. The net result is additional revenue, a line for continued across-the-board tax cuts, infrastructure development and social upliftment programmes.

In accordance with the February 2006 announcements, the Bill enacts the promised tax cuts including upward adjustment of the six personal income tax brackets for the benefit of individuals at every level, for instance, the 18% bracket now ends at R100 000, up from the previous R80 000 and the top 40% now begins at R400 000, up from the previous R300 000.

With regard to upward adjustment of the primary and secondary rebates, individuals under 65 years can now generate up to R40 000 tax-free as opposed to the previous R35 000. An individual 65 years or older can generate up to R65 000 tax-free.

In terms of saving, taxpayers strongly benefit. The tax in retirement funds is reduced from 18% to 9%, the individual exemption for investment interest increases from R16 500 for those under 65; and the annual capital gains exclusion increases from R10 000 to R12 500 for the sale of passive investments such as JSE enlisted shares.

Homeownership, another form of middle class saving, also enjoys substantial relief. The Bill drastically increased its transfer duty brackets. For instance, individuals can now purchase a home to the value of up to R500 000 wholly free from transfer duty as opposed to the previous R190 000 tax-free threshold. Meanwhile the capital gains tax exclusion for the sale of a primary residence also increases from R1 million to R1,5 million.

While the proposed small business tax amnesty contains many of the basic features outlined in the February budgetary overview, we have significantly expanded the scope of the amnesty after the public consultation. This aspect of the Bill strongly benefited from the informal hearing process undertaken by the Portfolio Committee on Finance. It provides yet another example of how the executive branch and Parliament can best work together.

The public consultation also gained from visits to small businesses, izimbizo with small business owners and other interactions with small business associations organised by the SA Revenue Services. The net result is an amnesty that is fully expected to enhance the small business tax register and to provide peace of mind for both the unregistered and registered small business owners living in fear of past noncompliance.

Restated in more formal terms, the amnesty is expected to broaden the tax base, facilitate the normalisation of small business tax affairs, enhance tax compliance and also facilitate participation in the tax recapitalisation.

It should be noted that the initial amnesty was designed as a two-phased process. The initial pilot phase concentrated solely on the taxi industry in order to facilitate the taxi recapitalisation and was followed by a general small business amnesty. The two-phased system was ultimately dropped after it was determined that the two-phased process actually complicated rather than simplified applications and the administration.

Before turning to the details, we would do well to remember that the amnesty was provided for wealthy owners of foreign assets in 2003. It's only fitting that comparable relief is afforded to those of lesser means, especially given their critical role in generating further economic growth. As for the 2003 amnesty, the Bill contains provisions for a full accounting to Parliament. So, the amnesty process is fully measured.

Who can apply? The amnesty covers a full spectrum of small businesses including sole proprietors, partnerships, unlisted companies and trusts. The key limit is size. A business will be viewed as small only if growth of business income does not exceed R10 million. The only other restriction pertains to unlisted companies and trusts, where only ownership or interest must be limited wholly to individuals. This requirement is designed to exclude complex-entity structures such as consolidated financial groups, all of which typically involve sophisticated businesses falling outside the typical small business sector.

When to apply? Applicants must act quickly to enjoy this once-off opportunity. Specifically, applicants must submit their applications to the SA Revenue Services between 1 August this year and 31 May next year.

What gets paid? The amnesty comes at a minimal cost. The amnesty level is tiered based on taxable business income, with a levy never exceeding 5%. In particular, applicants will pay nothing if their 2006 taxable business income ranges from zero to R35 000; 2% between R35 000 and R100 000; 3% between R100 000 and R250 000; 4% on a taxable income between R250 000 and R500 000 and they will pay the top 5% on income exceeding R500 000.

Successful applicants obtained a leave for all violations relating to full range of direct national taxes on business as well as the value added tax, including income taxes and secondary tax on companies rising before the 2006 tax year, that pay as you earn UIF skills development levy for tax periods ending before 1 March 2006 and withholding tax in royalties for payments to nonresidents before 1 March this year.

The amnesty not only covers successful applicants but also the authorised representatives. This amnesty further includes leave from all interest penalties and additional taxes as well as freedom from criminal prosecution in terms of tax offences.

However, it should be noted that the amnesty cannot be used to undermine the tax system, hence, taxpayers cannot utilise the amnesty as a means for obtaining refunds neither can they claim assessed losses arising from amnesty years as an offset against future income.

The amnesty contains measures to ensure that no relief is afforded for organised crime, whilst regulations will be issued to ensure that the Financial Intelligence Centre Act does not bar advisors from offering amnesty tax advice, despite the possible criminal nature of these violations. This prohibition does not extend to the knowledge of other criminal offences. Hence, tax advisors cannot freely offer advice to parties engaged in drug dealing, smuggling and other aspects of organised crime.

The amnesty also does not apply to fictitious schemes that deliberately use the VAT refund system as a method of stealing cash from the fiscus. The amnesty accordingly does not apply to schemes involving the submission of only fictitious invoices for artificial VAT refund claims, nor does the amnesty apply to schemes involving fictitious claims of zero-rated exports for items that actually involve fictitious exports or standard-rated local sales.

One difficult issue is the treatment of parties who have already come forward to disclose their noncompliance before the amnesty or are already liable for tax as a result of a Sars audit, investigation or other enforcement. This group of taxpayers typically falls outside the amnesty process because the amnesty acts as a quid pro quo for coming forward. In other words, parties are rewarded for disclosing their tax noncompliance during the amnesty window period before being detected by SA Revenue Services – that is, they have come forward before they can be found out.

That said, those parties with outstanding debts following their voluntary disclosure of previous noncompliance or Sars enforcement action undoubtedly feel unfairly treated given the complete amnesty granted to others engaged in similar violations. Given these concerns, the amnesty will be extended by regulation to cover this set of taxpayers. Although they will not receive full amnesty the regulations will allow for relief from interest, penalties and other additional charges while maintaining Sars claims against underlying capital. This aspect of the amnesty is being set aside for regulations due to the unique issues involved, but will be tabled for parliamentary review.

The final aspect of the Bill concerns municipalities. Firstly, the Bill sets in motion the removal of the Regional Services Council Levies with effect from 1 July 2006. Secondly, the VAT treatment of property rates will be shifted from out of scope to a zero-rating. This shift will mean that all VAT-bearing municipal costs relating to these rates will now be fully claimable by municipalities as creditable VAT inputs. This new level of claimable VAT input credits would indirectly shift substantial revenues to the municipalities as a further means of compensation for the loss of the Regional Services Council Levy.

The final set of changes again relates to VAT. Due to the historical treatment of property rates and municipal supplies, much of the municipal VAT calculation has turned out to be far more complicated than necessary. Many of these issues relate to whether municipal charges fall within or outside of the VAT net. The Bill accordingly brings the charges into the VAT system. This clarifies much of the confusion, simplifies compliance and generates further VAT input credits for municipalities.

Again, I would like to thank the chairman, Nhlanhla Nene, for his leadership and the members of the portfolio committee for their constructive role in the process. I can proudly say that the end product will take South Africa one step forward in terms of further growth.

I hereby table the Small Business Tax Amnesty and the Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill of 2006 as well as its companion, the Second Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill of 2006. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

Bill referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on which Votes they will make declarations, on which they will record their objections, and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process this afternoon. I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote, as they have indicated. Members may make declarations of vote from the floor microphones if they wish. After this I will put the vote for decision.

As in the past, declarations will be limited to two minutes each. For the first division, the bells will be rung for five minutes, but subsequently for only one minute. I now put Vote No 1 - The Presidency. Declaration has been requested, and I call upon the UIF. The UIF is not here.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put and agreed to.

Vote No 2 –Parliament – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J ELLIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. For the first time ever, the Democratic Alliance will be voting against this Budget Vote. I want to show the House that it has nothing to do with the fact that Mr Jannie Momberg from years ago, is in the gallery this afternoon.

We do recognise the important and valuable role that some people, both officials and members, play in the running of Parliament, but we are voting against this budget partly because we are deeply concerned about the role that some people play, both officials and members. It would seem that some of these people are trying to make Parliament more and more party-politicised and less user-friendly to all Members of Parliament from all parties.

There are also other concerns. We are concerned that Parliament has not handled the Travelgate scandal properly. This has caused this institution and its innocent members much embarrassment. We are concerned that Parliament has been manipulated in order to ensure that opposition parties have their operating space cut down, in order to give the majority party more and more say, and more and more involvement.

We are concerned that the roles of senior officials and the roles of presiding officers, are too often blurred, which does not make, we believe, for the smooth running of Parliament. We are also concerned that Parliament is generally becoming sidelined as an institution in our democracy. For these and other reasons, we will not be supporting this Budget Vote.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are all acquainted with section 42 of the Constitution, relating, inter alia, to the oversight function of the executive action. The crucial element of this oversight role is the consideration of departmental budgets. We have, as the Minister of Finance has repeatedly pointed out, been provided with a very effective tool in terms of the Public Finance Management Act. The important role played by Scopa, as well as Parliament's oversight committee cannot be overemphasized in this regard.

However, the ACDP believes that we, in our portfolio committees, should be monitoring the financial affairs and internal audit processes of our departments and other institutions throughout the year, and not only during the budget process. The ACDP believes that we must be fully conversant with departmental expenditure, and not be surprised by adverse AG reports, such as the AG's disclaimer recently issued to Home Affairs. In this case there was a glaring inadequacy regarding financial controls and internal auditing.

We, as the portfolio committee, were forced to consider lengthy financial reports, days before the Budget Vote. We should never again be caught by surprise regarding the Auditor General's reports. We trust that we will be given the sufficient capacity as Members of Parliament to engage in this process. The ACDP will support this Budget Vote.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports Parliament's Budget Vote. We support it because we believe that it provides Parliament with the necessary resources to realise the vision of a people's Parliament. We believe that this budget goes a long way towards addressing that. We don't believe that we are quite there yet, but we believe that under the leadership of the presiding officers and the administration of Parliament we are moving in a correct direction.

We reject absolutely the continuous attempts by the DA to create divisions between presiding officers and the administration. There are no such divisions. All of those officers and institutions are working in terms of the Constitution and the rules of Parliament. We have already dealt, at length, with the spurious allegation that Parliament is being sidelined. We make of Parliament the institution that it should be, and I think this budget represents an attempt to do exactly that. That is why we support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (DA dissenting).

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I wonder if you could just tell us what process you are going to follow. Are you going to put the Vote each time? Are you going to give us the opportunity to stand up and say that we object? I am not quite sure as to what process you are going to follow.

The SPEAKER: These are the declarations, and if you have objections we will note them. If you want to call for a division you may do so, and then we will divide.

Vote No 3 – Foreign Affairs – put and agreed to.

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, the recent damning audit findings by the Auditor-General in respect of the finances of the Department of Home Affairs are indeed quite serious and a cause for concern and indictment of the Minister and the DG as the chief financial officer. Four successive qualified audit reports, and a disclaimer to boot, for 2004-05 is no mean feat. Findings by the Auditor-General show massive financial mismanagement including no supporting documentation for an expenditure of R572,4 million.

This is simply outrageous. Surely management letters from the Auditor-General would have alerted someone in the department that things were going from bad to worse. Why didn't the internal audit team pick this up?

The DG of Home Affairs is more abroad than here at home, doing the job he is paid to do. In fact, it is scandalous, to say the least, that Home Affairs has overtaken the Department of Foreign Affairs in foreign travelling by almost R30 million.

Minister, your officials are taking the taxpayers for a ride and this must stop immediately. The DA acknowledges that you have, amongst other things, as the political head, accepted responsibility for the dire state of affairs, used the PFMA clauses to call for an intervention and investigation by National Treasury, put in place plans to decentralise management and decision-making structures and come out strongly against incompetent officials.

Minister, the lack of risk control and proper financial systems has indeed made the department vulnerable to theft and fraud. It is unfortunate that your DG does not report to you. It is actually incomprehensible that this kind of working relationship exists and it is the consensus that this is one of the major undoings. Heads must roll, Minister, and the first should be that of your DG. We hope that you will indeed follow through on the weaknesses in the department, but until you do, the DA has no option but to vote against the budget.

Mrs I MARS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The consistent deterioration in the administration of the Department of Home Affairs led to qualifications and disclaimers by the Auditor-General. It must be noted that the DG for several years, Mr Masetla, can be held responsible for many of the difficulties facing the current Minister and her DG.

The former Minister had several meetings with the executive; pointing out the difficulties encountered with Mr Masetla. Therefore, the hon Chauke's comments during the Budget Vote are not acceptable to the IFP. It was not the former Minister who received the disclaimer; it is the consequence of the activities of the former DG, who operated for years with the approval of the executive.

We support the Minister's request for assistance from Treasury and plead for the matters to be resolved as a matter of urgency. Thank you. We support.

Mr L W GREYLING: Madam Speaker, the ID objects to the Home Affairs Budget Vote in that we cannot accept that this department has had a qualified audit report for four years running. We understand that the Minister inherited a badly run department, but two and half years should have been enough time to turn this department around. The failure to do so is impacting the lives of poor South Africans who desperately need documentation to qualify for social security grants. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, the ACDP shares the views that the Auditor-General's disclaimer is an indictment on the department, following four qualified audit opinions. One of the main deficiencies relates to the failure of the internal audit committee to timeously alert management to internal control weaknesses. According to a separate audit committee, not to be confused with the internal audit committee, it had earlier alerted management to the significant control weaknesses and the deficiencies in accounting systems highlighted in previous AG reports.

This committee stated and I quote:

There appears to be a lack of active involvement by senior management to rectify weaknesses and deficiencies noted and reported. The result is that the same errors occur over and over again.

Whilst we therefore welcome Treasury's intervention and the steps the Minister is taking, the ADCP is unable to support this Budget Vote.

Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ek wil nie herhaal wat reeds deur ander partye gesê is nie, maar wat baie duidelik is, is dat daar tans ernstige probleme binne die Departement van Binnelandse Sake heers. Die departement is een van daardie departemente wat op die voorpunt staan wat dienslewering aan die publiek betref. Dit is daar waarheen die publiek moet gaan as hulle hul dokumentasie wil kry, hetsy vir die registrasie van geboortes, sterftesertifikate, paspoorte of reisdokumente.

Jy kan maar na enige departementele kantoor toe gaan en met die publiek daar in die rye praat en hulle vra of hulle tevrede en gelukkig voel met die diens wat daar op hierdie stadium gelewer word. Die VF Plus voel baie sterk dat die departement die geleentheid gegee moet word om hul sake in orde te kry. Ons is dankbaar dat die agb Minister verantwoordelikheid daarvoor aanvaar, maar tot tyd en wyl die saak uitgesorteer is, kan ons nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I do not want to repeat what has already been said by other parties, but what is very obvious is that there are serious problems prevailing within the Department of Home Affairs at the moment. The department is one of those departments that are in the vanguard of service delivery to the public. That is where the public must go if they want their documentation, whether it be for the registration of births, death certificates, passports or travelling documents.

You can go to any departmental office and ask the public standing in the queues there whether they are satisfied and happy with the service that is being delivered there at this stage. The FF Plus feels very strongly that the department should be given an opportunity to get their house in order. We are grateful that the hon Minister accepts responsibility for that, but until such time as the matter has been sorted out, we cannot support this Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, although the FD is supporting this Budget Vote, we are concerned that over a million citizens still do not posses a barcoded ID. We know that the possession of an ID is the first step for a citizen to enjoy the services and the grants offered by the state.

The qualified reports of the AG are of great concern to the FD and we trust that the hon Minister will give her most urgent attention to this. The FD is however encouraged by the hon Minister's recent comments to address all irregularities in her department.

Mrs M M MAUNYE: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Yes, the Department of Home Affairs is facing serious challenges emanating from years of mismanagement and neglect. The department has only been under the leadership of an ANC Minister for a mere two years. The Minister has been frank enough publicly to diagnose the problems of her department. For the first time we have seen a level of transparency that has made all of us to be more aware of the challenges faced by the department.

The portfolio committee has raised most of these problems on several occasions over the past years, with particular reference to problems we faced continually during the hearings on this budget. We were encouraged by the fact that the Minister has taken corrective steps to address the wrongs in the department.

The Minister is engaging other state institutions, including the National Treasury and the DPSA, to address the weakness in financial systems and the overall capacity of the department. Although these problems were not created by her or by the ANC, the Minister has taken up it upon herself to resolve the problems of the department. Most importantly, we are convinced that the plans outlined to be financed by this budget will enhance service delivery in the department and therefore be of great benefit to the people of this country who are served by the department. We have full confidence that these plans will be implemented. Thank you.

Question put.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 231: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, T J; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madikiza, G T; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mfundisi, I S; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 48: Batyi, F; Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Thomson, B; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, during the 2006 local government elections, incapacity and shortcomings within the local government spheres were firmly placed in the public eye. This was followed by increasing evidence that the provincial sector was not performing in accordance with desired standards. This was most shockingly brought to the fore when it emerged that provincial departments are deeply in debt to local authorities.

The problem experienced by municipalities in the efforts to collect service charges from ordinary people in the community is well documented. When viewed in this context it becomes evident that failure of certain provincial parliaments to pay millions of rand in arrears is a serious matter indeed and deserves our urgent attention.

This very disturbing state of affairs was recently made public when the City of Cape Town, after due process and deliberations was forced to cut the water and electricity supplies of one of our provincial parliament's buildings. The Minister must prove that he has his finger on the pulse when it comes to issues of this seriousness. The ACDP will not be able to support this Budget Vote and we wish to register our objection. Thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, sedert 1998 vra die VF Plus dat daar gekyk moet word na die salarisse, en ek wil byvoeg, die buitensporige salarisse van munisipale bestuurders.

So 'n week of wat gelede het die agb Minister aangekondig dat daar nou gekyk gaan word na hierdie munisipale bestuurders se salarisse en dat dit vasgestel gaan word. Die VF Plus verwelkom daardie stap.

As ons gaan kyk na plaaslike regering en veral na die finansiële bestuur in plaaslike regering, dan sien ons in die Ouditeur-generaal se verslag, dat daar eintlik totale chaos is in terme van finansiële bestuur. As ons gaan kyk na die uitstaande skulde van plaaslike regerings dan praat ons van 'n bedrag van meer as R40 miljard. Dit is amper twee keer so groot soos die verdedigingsbegroting.

Voordat die finansiële bestuur in plaaslike regering nie behoorlik gehanteer word nie en belastingbetalers nie langer onbillik belas word nie, sal die VF Plus nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Deputy Speaker, the FF Plus has been asking for salaries to be reviewed since 1998, and I want to add, the exorbitant salaries of municipal managers. About a week ago, the hon Minister announced that the salaries of these municipal managers were now going to be reviewed and that they were going to be fixed. The FF Plus welcomes that step.

If we look at local government and the financial management in local government, in particular, then we see in the Auditor-General's report that there is in fact absolute chaos in terms of financial management. If we look at the outstanding debts of local governments, then we are waking at an amount of more than R40 billion. This is nearly twice the size of the defence budget.

Until such time that financial management in local government is being dealt with properly and ratepayers are not being taxed in an inequitable manner, the FF Plus will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, although the FD supports this Budget Vote we are still very concerned about disaster management throughout the country. Much has been done, hon Minister, but I think more pressure ought to be placed on local municipal authorities to respond timeously.

In the Western Cape, for instance, we are entering our winter and when we notice the number of people living in informal settlements then we must say that they often get too little help too late. Somehow there must be some kind of pressure that Minister and the national department can place on local authorities to ensure that they respond timeously. I thank you.

Mr S L TSENOLI: Deputy Speaker, the ANC is convinced that the plan to assessment we have made of municipalities and our plan to deal with the problems there has been a correct one. We are convinced that the plan to improve capacity throughout government, the DPLG itself and especially Treasury to deal with these issues is the correct one.

We are convinced that the hands-on support to municipalities led by the President, the Deputy President, Ministers and Cabinet Ministers is the correct kind. It signifies our determination to work with municipalities to deal with the problems that have been identified in communities. So, the ANC quite happily supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus, African Christian Democratic Party, and the United Party of South Africa dissenting).

Vote No 6 – Public Works – put.

Mr V C GORE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, despite many successes of the late Minister, particularly around the Expanded Public Works Programme, the ID is unable to support the Budget Vote.

We feel that the Department has done insufficient work with regard to making public and government buildings accessible for people with disabilities. This fact was recently highlighted by the damning judgement handed down in the equality court in Port Elizabeth for not making a newly-built police station accessible. The ID believes that the Department of Public Works should be making a more concerted effort in making government buildings accessible to all, including people with disabilities, who represent approximately 7 million South Africans.

The ID will unfortunately not be able to support this budget.

Mnu F BHENGU: Mhlalingaphambi, ingxaki yamaxoki kukuba akabikho ezingxoxweni, kodwa ahlala kwiimbutho zabagxeki. Isizathu sokuba nditsho kukuba ndiyaqala ukumva, ndiqala nokuba ndimqonde ukuba kanti ukhe athethe ngemicimbi yeli sebe lo ebethetha apha. Abazange bakhe beze ekomitini nakwintlanganiso enye yeli sebe.

Ukuba bebezazi iinkqubo zeli sebe bekufanele ukuba babe bayinxalenye yezaa ngxoxo besinazo, ukuzama ukulungisa zonke ezi zinto athi yena ziyingxaki. Thina asikaziboni njengeengxaki ke. Mabaqhelane nokuhamba iintlanganiso zekomiti ukuze sikwazi ukuba sibe banye xa sithetha ngezinto ezizizo. I-ANC ngamafuphi, nkosikazi yakuthi, Mhlalingaphambili, iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo lwabiwo-mali. (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[Mr F BHENGU: Chairperson, the problem with liars is that they do not attend meetings but they associate themselves with critics. The reason I am saying this is that I hear the person who has just spoken here for the first time remarking on the issues of this department. They never attended a single committee meeting of this department.

If they were aware of the programmes that are taking place in this department they would have been part of the discussions we were engaged in to rectify what they see as problems. We have not yet seen these as problems. They must get used to attending committee meetings in order for us to be able to work together. In short madam, chairperson, the ANC, supports this Budget Vote.]

Vote agreed to (Independent Democrats).

Vote No 7 - Government Communication and Information System – put and agreed to.

Vote No 8 - National Treasury – put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises - put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 – Public Service and Administration – put and agreed to.

Vote No 12 - South African Management Development Institute – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Statistics South Africa – put.

Mr M J ELLIS: I ask that the objection of the Democratic Alliance be noted.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The objection of the DA will be noted. I now put the question. Those in favour of the objection will say: aye, and those against it will say: no. I think the "ayes" have it.

Mr M J ELLIS: Will you now note the objection of the Democratic Alliance?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Mr M J ELLIS: Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now record the objections of the DA. The Vote therefore is agreed to.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mev D VAN DER WALT: Agb Adjunkspeaker en kollegas, begrotingspos 14 van die Departement Kuns en Kultuur mag nie lig geskat word nie. Dit is hierdie begrotingspos wat ons moet gebruik om 'n diverse kulture bymekaar te bring om so een trotse nasie te word. Die DA het dit dan ook so bespreek.

Met die vordering wat die Minister en sy departement op verskeie terreine bereik het, wens ons hulle geluk. Gegewe die geleentheid om vanoggend ons kwellinge met die Minister en sy departement te bespreek, glo en hoop ons dat die ouditeursverslag van die departement volgende jaar meer positief sal wees.

Die DA kan egter nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie, as gevolg van die volgende: alhoewel dit 'n nuwe departement is, bestaan dit al twee jaar en die vorige jaar het die ouditeurverslag net so sleg gelyk. Daar was maar slegs vier uit 25 publieke entiteite wat ongekwalifiseerde ouditeursverslae van die Ouditeur-generaal ontvang het. Die onbestede allokasies en die feit dat die Nasionale Kunsteraad na 18 maande nog steeds nie aangestel is nie - en ek weet die Minister is daarmee besig - is vir ons onaanvaarbaar.

(Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Hon Deputy Speaker and colleagues, Budget Vote 14 of the Department of Arts and Culture cannot be taken lightly. It is this Budget Vote that we will have to use to unite diverse cultures in order to become one proud nation. So, the DA also discussed it with that in mind.

We congratulate the Minister and his department on the progress made in the various fields. Given the opportunity we have this morning to discuss our concerns with the Minister and his department, we believe and hope that the auditor's report of this department will be more positive next year.

However, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote, because of the following: Although it is a new department, it is in its second year of existence and the auditor's report for the previous year looked just as bad. There were only four of the 25 public entities that received unqualified auditor's reports from the Auditor-General. The unspent allocations are unacceptable, and the fact that the National Arts Council has not yet been appointed after 18 months – and I know that the Minister is busy with it – is unacceptable to us.]

Mr K M KHUMALO: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Arts and Culture allocated all of its resources to deserving arts and culture institutions. Those that did not provide any account, like those entities the hon member referred to, have already been issued with strong letters by the department demanding that they account and those that did not account ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have two full minutes. You can go slower, because I can't even ... [Laughter.]

Mr K M KHUMALO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, you know, when you have a lot of information, you want to put it too quickly.

Firstly, I was saying that the entities that did not account, like those that have been mentioned by the hon member, have already been dealt with. As a department, we have already issued letters to demand that those that did not account do so, and already 10% of the money has been taken from those that have not submitted proper reports.

In terms of the Freedom Park that has been established, that is an important embodiment of a rich tapestry of history and culture historically significant to our struggle. Therefore, we believe, that this institution has done well and the department must be congratulated.

And, finally, the department has attended to all the qualified reports that have been mentioned and we believe that this department has put all of its money towards the appropriate deserving arts and cultural institutions, and the ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Education – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr G G BOINAMO: Madam Speaker, the DA opposes the budget for Education. This government believes that simply by pouring money into badly managed and poorly performing schools, the standard of education they provide will improve.

But unless teachers and principals in poorly performing schools are held accountable for their performance, the money will simply go into a black hole.

The government is also not doing enough to ensure that it complies with its constitutional duty to provide a basic education. This is underscored by the fact that, in 2003, Grade 3 learners scored an average of only 30% for numeracy and 39% for reading and writing. Apartheid racial disparities continue to be reflected in these outcomes. Only one out of every 1 000 South African pupils in former Department of Education and Training schools, in Grades 3 and 6, meet internationally benchmarked literacy and numeracy standards. Only 3% of pupils in the former House of Representative schools meet the benchmarks, yet 60% of pupils in former model C schools meet them.

Minister, unless urgent remedial action is taken, the state will continue to fall short of its constitutional obligations. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, The ACDP believes that education is the key to a productive nation and thriving economy. Plans for spending on higher education institutions are therefore critically needed. We welcome increased spending on the National Student Financial Aid Scheme as an important investment in the youth of this country and future development in our nation.

Availability of student loans which can be repaid by service to the funding organisation after the completion of studies, must be a priority for all needy students. The ACDP believes that the criteria according to which many students would normally qualify for a loan have to be broadened so that loans should not only be available to certain categories, but to any student who is willing to work hard and produce what is required.

The ACDP welcomes the Minister's efforts to address the enormous challenges facing education, and will therefore support this Budget Vote.

Mr L M GREEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the FD is of the view that the Minister and the department, despite the huge disparities in our schools, have improved their performance since the last Budget year, although there are still many challenges that are faced by the Minister and the department.

We support the principle of subsidisation of schools to assist pupils who cannot afford school fees. However, hon Minister, we would like you to investigate the possibility of subsidising the pupils and not the school, because this would allow pupils the freedom to move from one school to another. With these words, the FD supports the Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr R P Z VAN DEN HEEVER: Madam Deputy Speaker, this morning at an Education Portfolio Committee meeting, it was once again affirmed that countries with such high levels of education display rapid economic growth.

We were pleased to note at the Education Portfolio Committee meeting this morning that levels of achievement, particularly in maths and science, were continuing to rise in our schools and educational institutions.

Education remains the main instrument for rapid skills development that will lead to accelerated economic growth, which is one of the prime objectives of the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa.

Education was one of the most neglected and disparate portfolios under apartheid. The standards, which the DA purports to want to uphold in education, are nothing but a smokescreen to hide its prejudices and hang-ups about an equal, nonracial education system. [Interjections.] The DA is clearly opposed to the shift of the Education budget and resources to benefit poor schools and poverty-stricken students.

The ANC remains convinced that equal education in nonracial and democratic education institutions remains the only morally justifiable and acceptable policy in education. The ANC has no hesitation in supporting the Education Budget Vote. I thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 244: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Batyi, F; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Harding, A; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 35: Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Groenewald, P J; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M.

Vote 15 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 16 - Health – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I make the following declaration on behalf of my colleague the hon Kohler-Barnard. One thousand people a day are dying of Aids in South Africa. Only one in five who need antiretrovirals in this country is given these by the Ministry of Health.

Six million South Africans are infected and that infection rate is increasing by 1 500 a day. One-third of the pregnant women in this country are HIV-positive, but only 15% of those women are given the treatment that prevents their babies from contracting the virus. The life expectancy of the average South African has now dropped to a mere 47 for men and 49 for women. The UN General Assembly ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order, hon members! Let us not have sounds when an hon member is addressing us. It is unparliamentary and please let us refrain from doing those kinds of things.

Mrs S V KALYAN: The UN General Assembly Special Session on Aids said an HIV/Aids plan should be a national priority. Such a plan would reduce Aids-related deaths, says the UN, and the Ministry has failed in that. Such a plan would ensure that those who are HIV-positive would be cared for, but it doesn't happen in this country. Such a plan would reduce the stigma of HIV, but there the Ministry has failed too.

The Health Ministry received a qualified report yet again. There was no audit report from the Northern Cape and, overall, the Auditor-General found that the internal audit systems are a mess and getting worse and that asset management was an unmitigated disaster. The Doro Framework for the Ministry of Health hospital revitalisation plans was ignored. Were the implementation plans ever approved or ever monitored? No one knows. And where were the business plans with respect to the HIV/Aids grants? The DA will vote against this budget. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I want to thank you right from the outset for having put a stop to the noise, but I do need to say, as you pointed out, that it is totally unparliamentary. We have raised the matter at the Chief Whips' Forum before. The fact that those noises continue in this Parliament, despite everything that we have done and you have done to put a stop to them, is absolutely unacceptable. I would really urge the ANC to discipline their members who continue to make those noises. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, you have made your point and we just gave a ruling and members observed that ruling, but we won't stop you from pursuing the matter in the Chief Whips' Forum.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the whole world recognises that South Africa has a very good plan to fight the scourge of HIV and Aids. It has been said over and over again.

I think where we are failing is with the implementation of that plan. A question that needs to be asked is what the Minister is not doing that she is supposed to be doing in terms of government's own plan of implementation? Once we can begin to look at that, I'm sure we can improve the delivery of ARVs and we can prevent the unnecessary deaths that we see in our country today. The ID, just for that, will not support this budget. Thank you.

Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Deputy Speaker, researchers warn of an expected sharp rise in the cost of public health services within the next few years as HIV-positive South Africans develop Aids-related diseases. HIV patients may soon account for much more than 70% of hospital expenditure in medical wards, where currently about half of all patients admitted have HIV-related illnesses, and the number of HIV patients in paediatric wards is even higher.

Aids patients stay in hospitals on average four times longer than other patients, placing enormous pressure on health facilities and health care workers. Over the years, the ACDP has joined others in calling for antiretroviral treatment to be available through the public health system to relieve the increasingly desperate situation in hospitals, but delays in providing treatment continue to take their toll on the health services and the economy in general. We do not understand the government's strategy on combating Aids, and therefore we cannot support this Vote. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Agb Adjunkspeaker, dit is reeds vir 'n hele aantal jare duidelik dat hierdie departement as omstrede beskou word in die Parlement deur verskillende partye wat jaar na jaar teen hierdie begrotingspos stem.

Dit moet die vraag laat ontstaan: Maar is daar dalk 'n fout, of is daar nie 'n fout nie? Waarom sou dit die geval wees? Dit is ook 'n feit dat, as gevolg van die agb Minister se beleid die afgelope klompie jare, honderde, indien nie duisende, van ons gesondheidspersoneel, dokters en verpleegsters die land verlaat het om elders 'n heenkome te gaan vind. Die vraag is: Hoekom het dit gebeur? Dit is ironies dat die departement juis nou probeer om weer daardie kundiges na Suid-Afrika terug te lok omdat ons gesondheidstelsel daardie mense nodig het en ook dat dit ons 'n klomp geld gekos het om hulle op te lei.

Die probleme wat in hierdie departement bestaan, kom jaar na jaar voor en ek wil in alle liefde dalk vir die agb President adviseer: Dis miskien tyd vir 'n verandering van Minister hier. Ons gaan teen die begrotingspos stem. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been evident for a number of years that this department is regarded as controversial by various parties in Parliament who have not supported this Budget Vote year after year.

It has to raise the question: Is there perhaps something wrong or not? Why would that be the case? It is also a fact that, as a result of the hon Minister's policy over the past few years, hundreds, if not thousands, of our health workers, doctors and nurses have left the country to seek refuge elsewhere. The question is: Why did this happen? The irony is that the department is now trying to lure those very same experts back to South Africa, because the health system needs their services and also because it cost us a pretty penny to train them.

The problems that exist in this department surface year after year and perhaps I should advise the hon President, with all due respect: Maybe the time has come for a change of Minister here. We are not supporting the Budget Vote. [Interjections.]]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, I will not repeat the comments made on the issue of HIV/Aids, because enough has been said, but I do want to touch on the issue of substance abuse. Sufficient funding is not made available to combat substance abuse, especially amongst the young people at school.

The abuse of tik is out of control, especially in the Western Cape. There are not enough rehabilitation centres in the country and poorer addicts do not have the access that other addicts have who can afford these rehabilitation centres.

We support this Budget Vote, but we would like the Minister and her department to look at this quite urgently. I thank you.

Mr C V J NGCULU: Madam Speaker, we in the ANC would like, once again, to state our unequivocal support for this budget. We are convinced, as the ANC, having once again listened very carefully to what the DA said, that the DA is indeed not committed to the transformation of our country because of the issues they raised during the debate. We raised the issues of HIV and Aids and the challenges thereof, but we also raised the question of the challenges of human resources. We must also recognise that whatever we say, if you don't support this budget, which puts a lot of emphasis on human resources, then the contradiction that emerges is: How then are you going to address the challenges of health in this regard?

You must also not forget that South Africa was the first country to introduce on the African continent a human resource strategy for health. That, on its own, is an indication of our commitment to this particular question. In fact, we are also the first country to move this motion in the World Health Organisation.

We in the ANC appreciate the points raised by the hon De Lille around the challenges, but we are not convinced that those points on their own are reason enough not to support and vote for this particular budget. So we really want to make an appeal that this budget be supported. Even at this late hour, we really want to appeal to all parties to support this budget.

Let's try to ensure that we all put our shoulders to the wheel, because health is more important that just the statements we heard here today. We can still do more. Let's all try to support this budget in the interests of all the people of South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 230: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendrickse, P A C; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 49: Batyi, F; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Mdladlose, M M; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Van der Walt, D; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Woods, G G.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Labour – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is deeply ironic that this year's Labour budget debate took place in May - the month historically associated with the rights of workers around the world. It's ironic because here in South Africa - with unemployment levels currently at 30% higher than ten years ago and the skills scarcity at such epic proportions that it keeps no less than the Deputy President awake at night - the months of April, May and June have seen strike action, violent protests, wanton destruction and even death on a scale unprecedented in our new democracy.

The ongoing security guard strike and the conduct of Satawu in particular are grim reminders of the damage that is done when unions behave recklessly and irresponsibly. It has also been a timely reminder of the failure of the Minister of Labour. Instead of providing leadership and guidance, he has been noticeably ``drastically quiet.''

The DA recognises the rights of workers to strike, but we cannot condone the behaviour of those thugs intent on terrorising South Africans in order to put pressure on their employers. Workers have rights, but law-abiding citizens do too. And until our labour laws and trade unions are aligned to the country's growth targets and the goal of maximising investment to address skills deficit and unemployment issues, we will simply never achieve these goals. The DA opposes the Labour budget.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the Minister of Labour might be doing something right because he has been elected as the chairman of the International Labour Organisation. So, that says there is something that he is doing right. [Applause.]

I just want to respond on the issue of affirmative action. Although the FD supports the policy of affirmative action, we believe that affirmative action has the potential, if approached incorrectly, of creating further institutionalised inequalities. It should be applied, we believe, as a temporary measure to redress the wrongs of the past and to ensure individual family - and nation-building and human resource development. Affirmative action should aim to make people self-sufficient to contribute to the running of their country in all its sectors. We should not have it written into the Constitution as a permanent right – and it is not - as this can only be counterproductive.

The FD supports the approach of healing the hurts in a society caused by unjust distribution of resources. Apartheid has left us with a legacy that has to be confronted in a way that would minimise conflict and the perpetuation of injustice. Conflict will inevitably arise if a simple black empowerment right is introduced that will benefit a few individuals without flowing down in the form of a benefit to the disadvantaged community as a whole.

With these few words, the FD supports the Budget Vote. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Chairperson, the ANC would like once more to express its support for this budget vote and believes that the legislative framework that is in place enables the people of South Africa and workers of South Africa to enjoy the rights that they have worked so hard for. We also believe that the interventions such as sectoral determination and affirmative action, which has not even begun to be implemented to change the imbalances of the past, are still far away from being removed. We therefore believe that this Budget Vote is going to enable the Department of Labour to deal with the challenges such as the shortage of skills and job creation, which is very important in our country. We also want to recognise the role that has been played by the Department of Labour internationally, testimony of which is by the appointment of the Minister of Labour as the chairman of the ILO recently. We support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 18 - Social Development – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M WATERS: Chair, whilst the DA will be supporting the Social Development budget, we have several concerns. We recognise that the roll-out of social grants has been a great success - with over 11 million beneficiaries. However, the processing of grants remains a challenge. We sincerely hope that the establishment of the South African Social Service Agency, Sassa will rectify this – we need to get a shorter name for it, hon Minister.

The awarding of guardianship to family members of children who in the main have lost their parents to HIV/Aids needs urgent attention. It is a pity that the Children's Bill fails to address this issue when we dealt with it earlier this year. Currently, relatives have to approach the High Courts at huge expense and they are generally inaccessible due to the physical location of these courts in the provinces.

The current crisis with regard to social workers needs urgent attention and we recognise that the Minister is strategising something through the recent workshop held in Pretoria. However, we are currently failing the children of our country by not being able to implement the current Child Care Act, never mind the new Children's Bill. The Children's Bill indicates that a minimum of 16 000 social workers will be needed to implement it properly. This 16 000 excludes social workers needed for the Older Persons Bill. If we fail to address this crisis, both these pieces of legislation will be stillborn.

The funding of civil societies such as NGOs and nonprivate organisations needs urgent attention if we want to prevent their meltdown through the flight of skills and expertise.

The National Child Protection Register is failing children because provinces are not linked up with each other for all the children who should appear on the list actually to do so. Whilst there should be hundreds of thousands of names on the list, there are currently just over 13 000. Hon Minister, there is one thing you must do this year: Please make sure that the register is capacitated to do what it is supposed to do.

The DA is concerned that we still have no legislation outlawing trafficking of children. We appeal that the chapter in the Children's Bill pertaining to trafficking of children be fast-tracked and implemented as a matter of urgency. Lastly, Chair ... [Time expired.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP wishes to highlight concerns that have been raised that access to disability grants is problematic for people living with HIV/Aids. As grants are only available when a person reaches a certain stage of the syndrome, it is often too late for the grant to bring relief. We therefore request the Minister to speedily address these concerns.

The national strategy for prevention and management of child abuse, neglect and exploitation, for example, has still not been completed but has been in the making for about ten years.

The ACDP calls on the department to ensure that this vitally important research be made an urgent priority. We will nevertheless support this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister, the FD believes that the existence of the Department of Social Services is very, very relevant for our communities, especially the poorer communities. But we believe that civil government should not be the only entity to be responsible for welfare. We believe that emphasis should also be placed on civil society in order to be able to assist with social transformation.

We believe that not enough is being done in Social Services to restore the traditional nuclear family as the primary provider of discipline, of love and charity, respect and values in our society and that is why we have so many child grants - because men are neglecting their responsibility to support their children. Now, the restoration should also expand to extended families and therefore also our community as a whole.

We know, hon Minister, that this department has many challenges and we know that you are doing your utmost to deliver, but we want to encourage you to continue doing your very best to address the issues of the breakdown of families in our nation. The FD supports this budget vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr T M MASUTHA: Chairperson, rising in support of this vote, I wish to state firstly that the bulk of this budget will impact directly on the living conditions and the livelihood of millions of households in this financial year.

More than 7 000 000 children receive the Childs Support Grant, as everybody knows, whilst approximately 2 million older persons and about 1,2 million disabled persons are beneficiaries of old-age grants and disability grants respectively, thus raising the total number of beneficiaries of our social assistance system to over 10 million people. Amounts of R1,2 billion in 2003-04 and R3,7 billion in 2005 were expended to extend the Child Support Grant.

The budget for social assistance rises from R55,4 billion in the 2005-06 financial year to R72,5 billion in the 2008-09 financial year. That is clearly an indication that the government is putting its money where its mouth is. The figures are there for everyone to see. When the ANC-led government says that it prioritises the poor, it means it. In our recent engagement with the department we were informed that during the financial year for 2005-06, the department identified and provided support services to some 218 259 orphans and children made vulnerable by HIV/Aids. About 30 000 of these children were referred for foster care placement. Further, the home-based and community-based care and support projects distributed some 170 000 food parcels to these children and their families during the financial year. These, taking into consideration the fact that not all orphans and vulnerable children ... The ANC supports this budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 19 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, the DA supports the Budget Vote, but with reservations. With South Africa's hosting of the 2010 Soccer World Cup only four years away, we have several concerns. There are numerous unanswered questions about transport, infrastructure and accommodation, and there seems to be no one in charge and no clear line of authority or responsibility. We need strong leadership and a clear, focused, deadline-driven vision for the 20l0 Soccer World Cup.

Another alarming issue is Boxing SA. The BSA is a state institution funded by the taxpayer, but it is still flouting financial laws and regulations. Provincial accounts no longer exist, yet noncompliance has become an even worse problem.

Finally, greater efforts need to be applied to building enough facilities all over the country to develop sport from primary school level, ensuring that talented children and those who show potential are mentored all the way to professional level. Thank you.

Mong B M KOMPHELA: Modulasetulo, ke batla ho bolella batho ka Matona a Kabinete a Palamente ya Afrika Borwa. Haeba ho ena le motho ya nang le qeaqeo le ho hloka tsebo ya hore na ke bomang ba ikarabellang mosebetsing ona o moholo wa 2010, ke banna bane bao Moporesidente a ba kgethileng hore ba shebane le mosebetsi ona oo naha e o tshwereng ka thata. Ha re lahlehe, re a tseba hore na ho tshwanetse ho uwe kae.

Hape ho na le basadi bana ba kgethilweng ke Moporesidente hore ba kenyakenyane le tebetebe ena ya mosebetsi hore Afrika Borwa e kgone hore e ikgethe ka hara matjhaba.

Tabeng ya Boxing South Africa, re dumellane le monghadi ya buileng, hore ha re sa tla hlola re tshwara dikopano ha selemo se fela. Re tla tshwara dikopano ka kotara e nngwe le e nngwe hore re lokise mathata ana. O ile a ba a dumellana le rona. Empa ke ne ke sa tsebe hore o tla ntlhaba ka lerumo ka mokokotlong, ha e le mona a se a fetoha kajeno tjena a re yena ha a di tsebe ditaba tseno.

Taba ya bohlokwa ke hore ditekanyo tsena tseo re di hlahisang kajeno ka pela Palamente, ke ditekanyo tse etsang hore re tswele pele ka mosebetsi ona bakeng sa motheo oo re o entseng wa ho aha setjhaba, wa ho aha Afrika Borwa e kopaneng, e se nang mmala le e se nang bong.

Mosebetsi oo re o etsa le bona banna bana. Haeba ba ne ba ikemiseditse hore re ahe Afrika Borwa e kopaneng ka lebaka la dipapadi, rona ba ANC re a e thoholetsa, mme re re pele ya pele. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho speech follows.)

[Mr B M KOMPHELA: Chairperson, I would like to tell the people about the Ministers in the Cabinet of the South African Parliament. If there is a person who is hesitant and doesn't know who is responsible for the 2010 duties, those are the men appointed by the President to be responsible for the huge task that the whole country is faced with. We are not fumbling; we know what we should do.

There are also women that have been appointed by the President to work on this huge project so that South Africa can be tops among other nations.

With regard to Boxing South Africa, we have agreed with the previous speaker that we would no longer have meetings at the end of the year. We will now have meetings quarterly to address these problems. He concurred with us. I never knew that today he would stab me in the back and say he doesn't know all of this.

A crucial matter is that this budget we are presenting today in Parliament is the budget that will enable us to move forward with the commitment of building the nation and uniting a nonracial and nonsexist South Africa.

We are working together with these people, and if they are prepared to build a united South Africa through sport, we as the ANC support that and say: Carry on with the good work.] [Applause]]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 20 – Correctional Services – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J SELFE: Thank you, Chairperson. Correctional Services has, over the past few years, reoriented itself away from warehousing inmates towards rehabilitating and reintegrating offenders. This reorientation could not happen countrywide and overnight. Accordingly, 36 centres of excellence were identified in which handpicked staff would roll out the new orientation.

The Pollsmoor female prison is such a centre of excellence. It is, therefore, inexplicable that a clearly disturbed inmate was chained to a grill for two days without psychological treatment and in contravention of the provisions of the Correctional Services Act, before setting her cell on fire and killing herself.

It is inexplicable that despite all the security checks available, drugs and weapons continue to be smuggled into the prisons. It is inexplicable that collusion by staff and lapses of security lead to the death of, or injury to, staff members even in centres of excellence. It is also inexplicable that a prison construction programme announced in 2002 has not yet gotten off the ground.

Of the four new prisons promised in 2002, only one will be built by the state over the next three years. The other three will be built by the private sector following a model called the "project finance model". The exact details of this model and the possible long-term risks to the state are not yet available, yet we are being asked to approve money that will be expended on these projects. This is clearly unsatisfactory. For all these reasons, we will be voting against the budget.

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, the IFP reluctantly supports this Budget Vote, and I say reluctantly Minister for many of the reasons that you've already heard from Mr Selfe. We are not convinced that the department fully understands what it has put money aside for next year. I'm not convinced at all that they are aware of what they are doing, and I'm going to be watching very carefully, Minister. The IFP is going to be watching very carefully, and we are going to hold you liable, Minister, and responsible for anything that goes wrong. Having said that, we will support the Budget Vote.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP shares the concerns regarding the delays in building of the four new prisons, certain of which were supposed to have been completed by April next year. Whilst we appreciate the enormity of the projects involved, we are concerned with the huge escalation in costs. In view of the exorbitant costs already incurred in the existing public-private partnership prison programme, the ACDP is concerned about the project finance model to be adopted. We cannot give a blank cheque.

According to National Treasury, had the department begun building the four new prisons when they were given the money to do so, they would not be experiencing the huge escalation in costs that they are at present. This delay has resulted in the reprioritisation of funds, which, though permitted, is clearly undesirable.

Whilst the situation regarding prison overcrowding has improved, overcrowding, nevertheless, remains a problem and is the root cause of health problems and the spread of diseases, such as tuberculosis and HIV/Aids in certain prisons. For these reasons the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek gaan nie 'n lang toespraak hou nie. Die besware wat deur die ander opposisiepartye geopper is, is ook die besware van die VF Plus. In die begrotingsdebat was dit ook van die besware wat die VF Plus geopper het, spesifiek die aspekte met betrekking tot oorbevolking in tronke.

Ek het egter 'n probleem met die agb Minister. In sy repliek op die begrotingsdebat was sy antwoord baie kort met betrekking tot die VF Plus; hy het gesê ons praat twak. Ek wil antwoord op dié opmerking.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I will not make a long speech. The objections that were raised by the other opposition parties are also the objections of the FF Plus. In the budget debate these were some of the objections the FF Plus raised specifically the aspects relating to overcrowding in prisons.

However, I have a problem with the hon Minister. In his reply in the budget debate his answer was very brief with regard to the FF Plus; he said we were talking nonsense. I want to reply to this remark.]

My answer and my response, hon Minister, is actually some advice. I want to say this in English so that you can understand me quite clearly. My advice to you is – and I hope you will take this advice with you because it can be to your benefit in future – don't let your arrogance exceed your intelligence. [Interjections.]

Ons sal dit nie ondersteun nie. Dankie. [We will not support it. Thank you.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister, the FD believes that too much emphasises is being placed on funding to build more and more prisons with the result that we have fewer and fewer rehabilitated persons. Now, we don't believe that the emphasis should be on rehabilitation. The FD believes that the emphasis should be on prevention, restitution, then retribution and finally rehabilitation. The reason we have so many prisons and why the prisons are so full is because the emphasis is on building more prisons and trying to rehabilitate prisoners.

We believe that long-term imprisonment escalates the problems of overcrowding, prison violence, professional criminal training and the spreading of HIV/Aids. Therefore we believe that the emphasis must be on prevention and restitution. The FD believes that there should be individual responsibility for action taken and that needs to be stressed. Any system that removes a sense of personal accountability and guilt from the criminal is bound to fail.

Therefore, we oppose a situation in which prisoners receive better food, medical treatment or other privileges that are denied law-abiding citizens. We do not say that they should not get these in prison, but people living in informal settlements should also have the same privileges, especially those who cannot find employment. I thank you, Chair.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I have a point of order. I just want to understand if it is parliamentary for an hon member to call the Minister "arrogant" and point a finger at him. Is that parliamentary? I really want a ruling on that, because I think that really is not respecting the House and the Minister. Can you make a ruling on that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon member, it is my understanding that it's that member's perception, which he might be entitled to. It seems a bit harsh, but I don't think the Chair can intervene on the matter. I don't think it's appropriate for the Chair to rule on that matter.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: On a point of order on that matter, Chairperson. We would want to make an appeal that carefully crafted insults aimed at Ministers be picked up, because that was a very insulting comment and he's abusing the budget declaration to insult people. [Interjections.] So, we lodge a serious objection to that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Let me appeal to hon members to moderate their language. [Interjections.] Order, order! I'm appealing to all members of this House to moderate their language, please.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Mnr Groenewald, as jy nie mooi verstaan het wat die Minister gesê het nie, herhaal ek dit vir jou: jy praat twak! [Gelag.] Jy praat twak! (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Mr Groenewald, if you did not understand clearly what the Minister said, I am repeating it for you: You are talking nonsense! [Laughter.] You are talking nonsense!]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon Bloem! I've just appealed to members to moderate their language. Could you please make your declaration? [Laughter.]

Mnr D V BLOEM: Voorsitter, die ANC sal hierdie begrotingspos steun. Die rede hiervoor is dat ons 'n verantwoordelike party is. Daar is geen manier waarop die ANC nee kan sê vir hierdie begroting nie.

Ek weet nie waarom die ander partye so 'n groot bohaai maak nie. Die departement werk saam met ons. Verlede week Dinsdag het die departement ons kom toespreek oor die besware wat julle het. Waarom kom julle nie vergadering toe en kom luister na die departement sê nie? Vir julle inligting, al agt die tronke gaan gebou word. Die eerste tender, Kimberley-gevangenis s'n, is al reeds uit.

Waarom huil julle? Sê my asseblief sodat ek julle kan help met die nodige inligting. Die ANC steun hierdie begrotingspos. Dankie. [Applous.]

Die HUISVOORSITTER (Mnr G Q M Doidge): Orde! Dit het geklink asof die agb lid wil huil! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, the ANC will support this Budget Vote. The reason for this is that we are a responsible party. There is no way that the ANC cannot support this budget.

I do not know why other parties are making such a big fuss. The department is co-operating with us. Last Tuesday the department came to address us about the objections that you have. Why don't you attend the meetings and listen to what the department has to say? For your information, all eight prisons will be built. The first tender, the one for the Kimberley prison, is out already.

Why are you crying? Please tell me so that I can provide you with the necessary information. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! It sounded as if the hon member wanted to cry! [Laughter.]]

I put the vote. Are there any objections? [Interjections.] I now put the question. Those in favour will say aye.

HON MEMBERS: Aye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Those ... I didn't hear any nays.

HON MEMBERS: No.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I think the ayes have it. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, you put the question because we said there are objections. You never put anything else after that other than "the ayes have it". You actually made a mistake, sir, if I may say so. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Mr Ellis, I give you the opportunity.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I presume that you have heard the nays and, therefore, I have great pleasure, particularly after the speech by the hon Mr Bloem, of calling for a division.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 234: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 46: Batyi, F; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Waters, M.

ABSTAIN - 1: Bici, J.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 21 – Defence - put.

Declarations of vote:

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Chairperson, Scopa presented the Department of Defence with some vital recommendations in its resolutions, based on the Department of Defence's annual report for the years 2002-03 and 2003-04, which was adopted on 14 September 2005. The Department of Defence subsequently responded on 22 October 2005, informing Scopa of the remedial or corrective measures that the department took or intended to take.

However, when one looks at the Auditor-General's report for the year 2004-05, the same problems persist. There still exists a lack of appropriate internal control mechanisms. There is nonadherence to proper processes and procedures. There is weakness in the management of inventories, assets, etc. Management policies and procedures are simply not being adhered to.

There appears to be a lack of vision, proper planning and focus on dealing with the root causes of the problems that beset the SANDF.

There is a case of completely misplaced priorities. These are the factors that compromise the combat-readiness of the SANDF and consequently the security of our country, including the waste of hard-earned taxpayers' money. In such circumstances the DA cannot support this Vote, and I hope that the ANC government does not replace the Auditor-General with a loyal songbird. Thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, die Minister van Verdediging het nie sulke uitlatings gemaak soos die Minister van Korrektiewe Dienste nie, so ek sal my binne perke hou. In Januarie 2005 kom die agb Minister van Verdediging en hy doen 'n beroep op veral blankes om aan te sluit by die weermag. Dit is in die media waar hy dit gevra het en ook gesê het dat Suid-Afrika ook die blankes nodig het in die SA Nasionale Weermag.

Hierdie week moet ons verneem dat 'n offisiervormingskursus wat aangebied word in die leër, uitsluitlik is vir swart, bruin en Indiërs, en dat blankes uitgesluit is daarvan. Hoe kan die agb Minister verwag dat blankes by die SA Nasionale Weermag moet aansluit, maar hulle mag nie offisierskursusse bywoon nie? Daar is nie bevorderingsmoontlikhede vir hulle nie. Geen regdenkende mens sal by 'n instelling aansluit, as daar geen bevorderingsmoontlikhede is nie. Dit is blatante rassisme en dit moet gestaak word. Voordat dit nie gebeur nie, sal die VF Plus nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, the Minister of Defence did not make the kind of statements that the Minister of Correctional Services did, so I shall contain myself. In January 2005 the hon Minister of Defence made an appeal, especially to whites, to join the defence force. It was in the media that he made this request and also said that South Africa also needed the whites in the SA Defence Force.

This week we were informed that an officers' course being offered in the army is exclusively for blacks, coloureds and Indians, and that whites are excluded from this. How can the hon Minister expect whites to join the SA Defence Force without being allowed to attend officers' courses? There are no promotion opportunities for them. No right-minded person would join an institution if there are no promotion opportunities. This is blatant racism and must be stopped. Until such time as this happens the FF Plus will not support this Budget Vote.]

Ms T V TOBIAS: Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote because we play an effective and leading oversight role as the ANC on this matter, guided by the Constitution and the Rules of Parliament and of the Republic of South Africa.

We also acknowledge the role that the Minister is playing in the Department of Defence, through the Minister's priorities. We reject the insinuations and myopia of the DA who cast aspersions on the good work that the portfolio committee has done in ensuring that there is accountability by the department to Parliament.

Obviously, the resolutions mentioned by Scopa here today will be implemented by the department. The portfolio committee will further ensure that mitigating action is continuously taken by the department as a corrective measure against challenges facing the department.

The pre-emption of the Scopa resolutions, which are scheduled to be discussed next week, and the excitement surrounding this, is absurd. I think maturity and objectivity help us to lead in soberness. The race card that is played by the FF Plus is opportunistic and does not hold water. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I put the vote. Are there any objections? [Interjections.] Do you want to record your objection, Mr Ellis?

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, you are confusing us by ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I'm sorry. Yes, you are correct. Could you take your seat?

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, the hon Minister of Finance is distracting everybody. He is wandering around the whole hall today so that I did get a bit confused.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Could you keep your eyes on the Chair?

Mr M J ELLIS: Certainly, sir, I will do that with pleasure.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr R J KING: Voorsitter, die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat, OKD, is tot stand gebring met die edel doelstellings om korrekte polisie-optrede te bevorder en te vestig of, negatief gestel, om klagtes van polisiebrutaliteit, -kriminaliteit en-wangedrag te ondersoek en ideaalgesproke dan uit te roei.

Die direktoraat is al amper 'n dekade met ons en die sukses al dan nie van hierdie instelling kan sekerlik juis gemeet word aan die hand van die opdrag wat tot sy instelling gelei het.

Ek wil ook vandag beweer dat 'n sterk en goedfunksionerende OKD instrumenteel sou wees tot 'n polisiediens wat deur beeld en optrede die agting en respek van die publiek sou afdwing. Ongelukkig is die teenoorgestelde egter waar. Wat verwag ons anders as, wanneer die Staande Komitee op Veiligheid en Sekuriteit die nodigheid van 24 nuwe kantore vir die OKD bespreek, om maar net te begin om die geweldige infrastruktuur- en mannekragtekort aan te spreek, veral in die landelike gebiede?

Terwyl die komitee die OKD probeer help om sy werk behoorlik te kan doen, maak die Nasionale Kommissaris van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit die ongelooflike uitlating dat die direktoraat se tyd verby is. Tyd verby, soos in, "mission accomplished". Dit is mos net nie moontlik nie. Juis dit wat ons met 'n welfunksionerende OKD wil bereik, naamlik openheid, erkenning, reiniging, herstel en uiteindelik reklamering en beeldpoetsing, word polities verwoes deur optredes so onlangs as met die polisie se begrotingsdebat deur die Minister self; 'n vertoning wat vir die kriminele en misdadigers soos manna uit die hemel moes klink.

U het die gevolge van dié katastrofale vertoning oral gesien. U het die geskarrel, ongeloof en magtelose woede onder die publiek waargeneem, ook in die townships. Hierdie vertoning het die beeld van die polisie en die OKD onherstelbaar geskend het en skokgolwe deur ons land gestuur het. 'n Gebrek aan die politieke wil om die OKD te maak werk, saam gelees met die onsekerheid wat hardhandige en arrogante miskenning van leiersweë veroorsaak, maak dit onmoontlik vir die direktoraat om in sy doel te slaag. Die DA vra dat sy beswaar aangeteken word. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Chairperson, the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, was established with the noble objective of promoting and establishing a proper code of conduct for the police or, phrased negatively, to investigate and ideally eradicate police brutality, criminality and misconduct.

The directorate has been with us for almost a decade now and whether or not this institution is successful can certainly be measured against the very mandate that led to its establishment. Today I want to maintain that a strong and well-functioning ICD will be instrumental in creating a police service that, through its image and actions, will command honour and respect from the public. Unfortunately, the opposite is true however. What else do we expect, when the Standing Committee on Safety and Security is discussing the need for 24 new ICD offices, just to start addressing the enormous lack of infrastructure and manpower, especially in the rural areas?

While the committee is trying to enable the ICD to do its work properly, the National Commissioner of Safety and Security makes the unbelievable statement that the directorate has had its day. It has had its day as in "mission accomplished". It is just not possible. Those very things that we want to achieve with a well-functioning ICD, namely transparency, acknowledgement, cleansing, reconstruction and eventually reclaiming and polishing its image, are politically destroyed by the Minister's own actions as recently as during the budget speech of the police, a display that must have sounded like manna from heaven to the criminals and offenders.

You saw the effects of this catastrophic display everywhere. You observed the confusion, disbelief and the powerless anger among the public, in the townships as well. This display caused irreversible damage to the image of the police and the ICD and sent shockwaves through our country. A lack of political will to make the ICD work, together with the uncertainty caused by the harsh and arrogant disregard for the woes of the leaders, make it impossible for the directorate to succeed in its goal. The DA requests that its objection be noted. Thank you very much.]

Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote, and the ICD is here to stay. I don't know who wrote that speech for hon King. It is a pity that it is written in Afrikaans and I couldn't capture some of the things that he said.

Sihlalo, ingxaki yala magwala kukuba nayiphi na into enenkqubela-phambili eyenziwa yi-ANC iza kuhlala ilihlaba kuwo. [Chairperson, the problem with these cowards is that any efforts made by the ANC on development will always remain a thorn in their flesh.]

We are not surprised by the DA's attitude towards the ICD's budget. Last year the DA opposed this Budget Vote because the ANC had problems with the manner in which the ICD was managing its financial affairs. Now that the ICD has improved a lot on its management style, the DA is very disappointed. They did not expect the ICD to be doing what it is doing now. I therefore say to you, Chairperson, that the ANC supports this budget and the ICD is here to stay. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, here is another whinge about our criminal justice system. Access to the courts is unsatisfactory, the majority of court users lack basic information and are not being shown courtesy and respect; court processes are not explained to them and there is no complaints procedure; court staff do not deliver the service expected by court managers; the conditions of court buildings is poor.

This is not the DA whingeing, but the Public Service Commission, which published these findings earlier this year. Added to that, after years of promises, more than half of our courts are not connected electronically or properly secured against the background of a renewed serious violent crime wave; there are large and rising backlogs in the lower courts with over 200 000 outstanding cases; more than 200 prosecutors' posts are not filled; yet, nevertheless the department failed to spend its increased budget efficiently, with last-minute roll-overs of approximately R300 million, and we still do not have information from Treasury on whether they have been agreed to or not.

Filling vacancies in the Chapter Nine institutions falling under the department's control has been mismanaged, so that half the commissioners' posts in the Human Rights Commission and all on the Gender Commission are vacant, except for that of the chair.

And then there are those Bills undermining the independence of judiciary, which are still lying about and are still being punted by the Deputy Minister, but which, according to Chief Justice Pius Langa, no judge supports because they are flawed and against our foundational values. The organised legal fraternity, both domestically and internationally, supports the judges, as does the DA. These are just some of the reasons, and there are plenty more, why the DA cannot support the Justice Budget Vote this year. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP is concerned about the political pressure placed upon the prosecutorial services, particularly in the form of unfounded allegations against the former Director of Public Prosecutions, Adv Ngcuka and, recently, Adv Pikoli. There can be no doubt that the NPA has contributed significantly to the fight against crime.

Whilst the NPA can never be above the law, our call to all those who would want to see a further reduction in the levels of crime is to allow the NPA to do their work without fear, favour or prejudice. We trust that the NPA will prosecute those persons who uttered hate speech during demonstrations in the former Deputy President Zuma's rape trial.

The message from Parliament should be loud and clear: Hands off our prosecuting authority. The ACDP agrees with the views expressed by Prof Hugh Corder, that, I quote:

The vocal and empathic support of the leadership of the ANC Youth League and the Young Communist League is extremely disturbing. The test will be their response to adverse judgements on those whom they support in the future, not least the outcome of the corruption trial which faces Zuma in less than three months. We need to come alongside and support the prosecutorial services and prevent any political interference.

The ACDP will support the Budget Vote.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, one of the key functions of a civil government is to protect society. This is the function that I think our present government has not yet fulfilled, although they are trying. We think that the levels of crime are still much too high and the courts somehow do not deal with this effectively.

Now we believe that the state bears the traditional sword of justice and must protect all of its citizens by demonstrating that crime doesn't pay.

Criminal elements, however, should fear the wrath of society as demonstrated by our government, the state, as this is the most effective way to combat crime. Although our legal system is based on principles of good common sense, our courts remain largely still inaccessible owing to a relative lack of sophistication amongst ordinary people.

The FD is in agreement with and will promote recent strides towards making the legal system more understandable and, therefore, more accessible to ordinary people. Therefore, we believe that much more funding should be made available for teaching people about our justice system.

Equality before the law is a prerequisite for a just society. However, in practice people are still discriminated against owing to their personal lack of education and sophistication.

The FD is of the view that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development should re-examine structures that limit accessibility to justice and recourse to the law by the majority of South Africans. The FD supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, firstly, let me just say that nobody, not members of my study group and certainly not I - and I am quite sure not the Minister either - will just claim that the Justice department is the best department we have. But equally, what I am prepared to say quite confidently, and I'm sure others who are honest will agree with me, is that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has improved substantially in the past few years, achieving a nonqualified audit two years in a row.

Secondly, let me just say that if you continue repeating things over and over again, that which you repeat over and over again doesn't suddenly become true one day. During the apartheid era many people on this side of the House suffered decisions by judges and magistrates whose independence was highly questionable, if not nonexistent.

The ANC cannot, therefore, in principle, assault the impartiality exercised by our judicial officers in this era of freedom. So, I want to urge, yet again - those members who haven't read the Bill and those who have but still stand up in this House to assault and undermine the parliamentary processes and the committee's system - to once again read the Bills that we have prepared and study them so that they will understand them once and for all. They must not just read the papers and regurgitate what the Sunday Times and other such media have to say about them. Make up your own minds.

During the Budget Vote debate we heard of officials in the Justice department sacrificing large amounts of their personal time during weekends and after hours to make justice work. Prosecutors, who in their own time are looking for witnesses ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, I regret your speaking time has expired.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: The ANC supports this budget, Chair. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 235: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, NP; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 39: Batyi, F; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Waters, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24 – Safety and Security – put.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: The DA will not support the Budget Vote for Safety and Security. Although there are many, I will give you five reasons for this. Firstly, government has failed every year to meet its own target of bringing down contact crimes by between 7% and 10% annually.

Secondly, although up to 50% of crimes are not even reported, government refuses to release statistics on reported crimes regularly and current statistics are 15 months old. The DA believes that South Africans have the right to know the types and frequency of crimes committed in their neighbourhoods.

Thirdly, government has failed to make a meaningful improvement on the general conditions of employment or working conditions of police officials.

Fourthly, the lack of personnel and resources, especially in our detective services, implies that many criminals are not detected or punished for their crimes.

Fifthly, the Minister's attitude to victims of crime is that, and I quote:

They can continue to whinge until they are blue in the face or they can simply leave this country.

This is because the Minister is deployed to make peace in Burundi and has lost touch with the reality of living in South Africa.

He has seemingly forgotten that on his watch, 51 normal people without bodyguards are murdered every day in this country. These five reasons why government is failing to ensure the safety and security of all South Africans may be summed up with three words: no political will. Can I repeat that? No political will. Thank you. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, on 7 June 2006, during the President's Budget Vote, I raised the ACDP's concern that more than two weeks after a six-year-old girl was raped and strangled to death, the police official who had to investigate the case had neither phoned nor visited the bereaved family.

The family does not know if or when the rapist and murderer will appear in court. They fear that if this case does go to court, it will be thrown out for insufficient evidence, resulting in their daughter becoming another statistic.

Although the ACDP will support this Budget Vote to encourage the loyal, committed and hard-working policemen and women, I nevertheless want to ask the Minister that this case of rape and murder of six-year-old Kedibone receives his personal attention, and that he allocates a capable and caring police official to ensure that the evil man who committed these very serious crimes be convicted in a court of law. I thank you.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Surprise, surprise, hon Minister! I did not leave the country. And, I have bad news for you: I am not going to leave the country either! [Interjections.]

I will continue complaining about the high crime rate in South Africa. I will not become blue in my face, but you are red in your face and you have some explaining to do.

Voorsitter, hierdie Parlement is 'n demokratiese instelling. Dit is hier waar verteenwoordigers die besware van die publiek daar buite kom stel. Die agb Minister dink dit goed om te sê dat as hier oor misdaad gekla word, mense die land moet verlaat. Dit is die reaksie. Agb Minister, miskien moet u by u agb President advies gaan inwin oor hoe daar in 'n parlement opgetree word. U ondermyn die demokrasie in Suid-Afrika, en as u die demokrasie ondermyn, is u niks anders as 'n politieke misdadiger nie. U opmerkings sê reguit u is 'n rassis. U is niks minder as dit nie, en u is 'n verskoning verskuldig aan nie net hierdie Raad nie, maar ook aan Suid-Afrika. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, this Parliament is a democratic institution. It is here where representatives come to articulate the grievances of the public out there. The hon Minister thought it fit to say that if people want to complain about the crime rate here, they should rather leave the country. That is the response. Hon Minister, maybe you should seek advice from your hon President about how one should conduct oneself in a parliament. You are undermining South Africa's democracy and if you are undermining the democracy, then you are none other than a political criminal. Your remarks directly suggest that you are a racist. You are nothing more than that and you owe us an apology, not only to this House, but also to South Africa.]

Mr T M MASUTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon member to accuse the Minister of being a political criminal and a racist? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! There is another comment that the hon member made which I want to look at in the Hansard. I will come back to the House with a ruling. Are you done with your declaration, hon member?

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Nee, mnr die Voorsitter, miskien moet u maar kyk na Hansard, dat ons dit klaarmaak. Ek het gesê die agb Minister is 'n rassis, en ek staan daarby, want dit is die waarheid. Hoe kan die agb Minister, as 'n verantwoordelike Minister, dit kom sê? [Tussenwerpsels.] Hy kan dit nie doen nie, mnr die Voorsitter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: No, hon Chairperson, perhaps you should go and have a look at the Hansard so that we can conclude this. I said that the hon Minister is a racist, and I insist that is the case, because it is the truth. How could the hon Minister, as a responsible Minister, say something like that? [Interjections.] He may not do so, hon Chairperson.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, on a point of order: There are rulings recorded in the House. I do not think there is a need to study the Hansard. The hon member has repeated the offensive, unparliamentary comment. He did refer to the hon Minister as racist. He has now said it again, and we have agreed in this House that that is unparliamentary language, and I ask you to rule.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon members, I will look at what the hon member said in the Hansard and we will give a ruling. I appeal to all members to accept that ruling. Hon Groenewald, you have 32 seconds left to make your declaration.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: In 32 sekondes, Voorsitter, wil ek sê die agb Minister sal Suid-Afrika 'n guns doen as hy as Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit bedank. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hy moet nie nou kom en sê hy het net sekere agb lede betrek nie. Elke lid in hierdie Parlement verteenwoordig minstens 40 000 kiesers. Dan het die agb Minister 120 000 Suid-Afrikaners beledig. Bedank, agb Minister, dis die eerbare manier. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: In 32 seconds, Chairperson, I would like to say that the hon Minister would be doing South Africa a favour if he resigns as Minister of Safety and Security.[Interjections.] He should not now come and tell us that he had only involved certain hon members. Every member of this Parliament represents about 40 000 voters. Then the hon Minister has insulted 120 000 South Africans. Resign, hon Minister, it is the honourable way out. Thank you.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister, I think we must all accept today that there is a major concern - and I am sure the Minister must also have that concern as well - that there are still too many people dying as a result of violent acts in our country. I am sure that that is an area which we all have to address – the department and yourself, Minister. But we, as opposition parties, must also strive to bring down the levels of crimes in our nation.

Maybe I should just mention a couple of things. I know that the budget is a good one but there are certain areas that I think need to be highlighted. There is a marked improvement in the way in which crimes are being investigated. Too many criminals are still getting away with crimes that they commit, especially murder, because of the kind of investigative procedures.

We believe that it will also be necessary to intensify training and retraining throughout the service, and instil respect for authority and duty. Our policemen and policewomen are trained but we don't think that their training is being maintained throughout their service. We believe that strict standards must be applied in recruiting top calibre personnel, thereby improving the image and standards of the service. Improvement in the conditions of service will also be necessary.

I know, hon Minister, you corrected us with regard to salaries. You corrected that perspective, but I still think that the conditions of service must be protected or be improved. Policing is an essential service, therefore the right to strike is a problem and we must ensure that policemen must be taught that that is not a right that they can exercise.

Investigations into organised crime, gangsterism and high-level fraud must be carried out using the expertise of successful operators throughout the world, and there should be strict control of arms. I heard you saying that we have too many guns in our society. I agree, hon Minister, we must get rid of the guns in our society, especially the illegal ones.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member, your time has expired.

Mr L M GREEN: I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, on a point of order: Can I ask Mr Green a question? Does he know that there are also policewomen in this country? It is not only policemen. I thank you.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, you can't stand up and say "on a point order" and then ask a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Please take your seat, hon Ellis. Point taken, Minister.

Nksz M M SOTYU: Mhlalingaphambili, andizi kuchitha ixesha lam ngokuphendula ubuvuvu obuthethekayo apha. La magwala bendithetha ngawo, ngala magwala ungasokuze uweve ethetha ekomitin i yemicimbi yesebe. Abanye babo bendingabazi nokuba bangamalungu alaa komiti. Bendiqala ukubabona namhlanje. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mrs M M SOTYU: Chairperson, I am not going to waste my time on the nonsense that is being spoken here. The cowards I am referring to are those who do not say a word in the portfolio committee meetings. I did not even have an idea that some of them are members of that committee. This is the first time I see them today.]

I won't waste my energy by responding to some of those things. However, I would like to say that the ANC supports this Budget Vote, and anyone who challenges our democratic freedom by engaging in or encouraging criminal activities can pack up and go. [Interjections.] With regard to the ACDP and the FD, we will pray for them along the way. If they happen to miss home, they can pray their way back home, but they will find us fighting crime in South Africa.

Fighting crime in an effective manner is a priority of this ANC-led government. This is reflected by the huge budget increase for Safety and Security. Voting against this budget without providing an alternative to the crime-fighting strategy implemented by SAPS is both irresponsible and opportunistic. That's the DA.

The DA is failing in its duty, not only as an opposition party but, more importantly, as public representatives of the people who voted for them. They have thrown their votes away, anyway. To criticise without providing alternatives is cosmetic, opportunistic and reflects the approach of a policy-challenged political party.

The ANC, together with the majority of peace-loving and law-abiding citizens of South Africa, fights the minority who try to challenge our democratic freedom by engaging in criminal activities. To those parties like the FD and FF, I haven't even heard of those ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms M M SOTYU: The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 233: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 47: Batyi, F; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Pule, B E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Waters, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 25 – Agriculture – put and agreed to.

Vote No 26 – Communications – put.

Declarations of vote:

Me M SMUTS: Voorsitter, ek het probeer kyk of die agb Minister van Kommunikasie hier teenwoordig is, want ek wou graag aan haar oordra dat ek gedink het dit is nou die jaar waarin ons haar begroting sal steun. Dit is helaas egter nie die geval nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, I tried to see if the hon Minister of Communications was present here, because I wanted to say to her that I thought this was the year in which we would support her budget. Unfortunately, however, that is not the case.]

This should, in fact, have been her moment, and the Electronic Communications Bill would have been seen as her monument, even though the truth is that it is the fruit of the work of both Parliament and government working together, much as the hon Minister of Finance earlier said - that the executive and Parliament can, very fruitfully, work together. The Electronic Communications Act is the product of such co-operation.

So I fully expected to be supporting this budget. However, we will not do so, and the reason is this: The hon Minister has proved to be unable to abandon the idea of executive control of telecommunications. In fact, she has caused a waste of the time of Parliament and of the President over the Icasa Amendment Bill, which is the companion piece to the Electronic Communications Act.

Her intervention has in fact also delayed the implementation of liberalisation under the Electronic Communications Act. It is true that she was stung into action and that she announced policy directives to hurry things up here on 25 May. But the fact is that we have lost many months, which could have been used to assist Icasa out of its present troubles.

It must also be said that the Deputy Minister of Communications continued to question Icasa's status here, even as we debated the final Icasa Amendment Bill.

Let's just recap that Icasa, the regulator, has been given a sophisticated set of legal and economic tools to enable it to define markets and to judge where forbearance and an absence of regulation might in fact be prudent; to decide where there are essential facilities and bottlenecks; to declare operators with significant market power and then to impose conditions such as fair access to the local loop on them, and also to impose a price range ... [Time expired.]

Mr V C GORE: Hon Chair, the ID finds itself in a particularly difficult position with regard to this Budget Vote. On the one hand, we are fully supportive of the Minister's attempt to liberalise the market, converge telecoms and broadcasting, and roll out services to all South Africans.

However, we are particularly concerned about the attack on the independence of the regulator, a constitutionally protected organ of government, to weaken the assisting body, and the attempt to wrestle control of the industry away from Icasa to transfer it to the Ministry and the department. Unfortunately, the ID cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr A HARDING: Chairperson, the ACDP is deeply concerned about the recent trend by the department, and possibly endorsed by the government as a whole, to reduce drastically the number of Christian radio stations, and in some cases not even being prepared to renew existing licences.

The ACDP believes that by closing down community radio stations that render services such as counselling and support to people from broken homes and broken marriages, rape and abuse victims, the department is revealing that it is out of touch with the realities of crime and anxiety suffered by our communities.

The department must take into account the actual needs of the communities it is meant to serve and make professional and accurate assessment of the ways in which Christian community radio stations meet these particular needs before haphazardly closing down what is a valuable resource to many people. The ACDP will not be able to support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the FD has been sufficiently covered, particularly with regard to the statement on the issue of Christian radio stations, so I won't repeat those comments. Thank you, Chair.

Mr G G OLIPHANT: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Communications Budget Vote. Our policy framework and legislative instruments are firmly in place. The ICT sector is growing at an impressive and rapid pace in the country, which needs to be encouraged.

We have, recently, passed two very important pieces of legislation that hon Dene Smuts has referred to, namely the Electronic Communications Act and the Icasa Amendment Bill, with the latter awaiting the signature of the President, to strengthen policy implementation and regulation.

We are satisfied that the budget allocated to the Department of Communications adequately addresses the challenges of the current conjuncture. It's unfortunate that we've got to drag the DA and other opposition parties, screaming and kicking, into this revolution that they are part of.

The question of Icasa was resolved in this House with an amendment to the piece of legislation concerned and I don't know why hon members are still whingeing about it. The ANC is committed to the question of strengthening Icasa. We've agreed to do that together.

The ACDP will actually benefit from attending meetings so as to understand that Icasa, not the Department of Communications, issues licences for radio stations. So we support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 27 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put and agreed.

Vote No 28 - Housing – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A HARDING: Chairperson, the ACDP is a party that is committed to the love and care of all people of South Africa. We would have voted against the Housing budget, were it not for the fact that we are very much aware of the dire need for proper quality housing in South Africa.

One issue that must be raised is the manner in which the department and the provincial partners are dealing with the N2 Gateway project. During the Minister's budget speech on 24 May this year, she indicated that the N2 Gateway will, as a pilot project, be duplicated elsewhere in the country.

It is our opinion that the government should concentrate on quality, but affordable, housing. The N2 Gateway project is not affordable, and does not address the immediate needs of those who are urgently in need of housing in the particular areas where these people are being housed.

In the interests of all South Africans and as part of the genuine commitment to address the housing backlog, government should review the N2 Gateway project, and other similar projects, so that realistic timeframes and funding mechanisms are determined. The ACDP will support this budget.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the FD doesn't have a major problem with the N2 Gateway project, but we do want to raise the problem of a cost overrun - and it is alleged, hon Minister, to be to the tune of R28 million on this project.

We are aware that both national and provincial as well as local government has been involved in carrying out this project, but what we are concerned about is that it has been alleged that the design work and the initial constructions were carried out simultaneously. I am sure that is not the way in which we want to do housing, and I am sure that it is because it was the first time.

We would also want to ask the Minister, and I know she can't reply now but we do want to bring it to her attention, who will be liable for the costs? Will it national, provincial or the Cape Metropole?

So, the FD supports this Budget Vote. We commend the Minister for at least attempting to do something about housing in the Western Cape. Although there have been cost overruns, the need for housing is great, and we must push forward in terms of supplying housing to those that don't have any houses. Thank you.

Mrs Z A KOTA: Chairperson, I just want to say to the ACDP that they must attend the meetings of the group. What they are talking about makes it very clear that they do not understand what they are talking about.

I want to tell Mr Green that this is a national pilot project. There is no way that we are not going to incur costs. It is a pilot project, and the City of Cape Town continues to discuss these matters in meetings.

There is an M3 body, which is a forum comprising the Minister, the MEC and the Mayor of the City of Cape Town. Those matters get discussed in that forum, and explained. The issues that are raised in the media are the issues that were dealt with by the Minister when he was here in this House, explaining exactly the concerns that the Mayor of Cape Town was raising in the media.

We, the ANC, do support this Budget Vote. We understand that the Minister is committed to coming up with housing rental stock, which is for mixed use. The N2 Gateway will consider both the subsidy sector area and rental housing stock, so this is not a mistake. It is a national pilot project, and we assert the fact that the Minmec, when it met yesterday, said that the City of Cape Town should be moved out of this project, because they do not know what they are doing. In fact, they are creating more confusion than helping the process. We support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 29 - Land Affairs – put.

Declarations of votes:

Mr A H NEL: Chairman, we have always supported the Budget Vote for Land Affairs, because we truly believe that land must be more evenly distributed.

This year, however, we have decided not to support the Budget Vote, because of three specific reasons. I gave various examples of each in the budget debate. They are, firstly, expropriated funds not spent; secondly, ineffective administration, and thirdly, irresponsible statements made by senior officials of the department.

An opposition party can only express its dissatisfaction with the performance of a department and its Minister by voting against the Budget Vote. They cannot intervene and rectify, but the Minister can.

In our view, the outgoing Minister could have done much more about the above-stated problems. She must have known about the underspending, the irresponsible statements, and the poor administrative process euphemistically spelt out by her Deputy, and I quote, ``We have many problems on the administrative level''. Yet she did nothing, as far as we know.

We will monitor the new Minister, and see if she will attend to these problems. I don't see her here; I hope she is working. We cannot support the Budget Vote on Land Affairs. Thank you.

Mr A HARDING: Chairperson, funds allocated to land acquisition are being scaled down, with the exception of land restitution, which does not bode well. Government's stated intentions to abandon its willing buyer, willing seller policy is highlighted by the HSRC's study which concluded that even without taking into account land valued since 2003, at least R4 billion a year would be needed if land were to be purchased. This is more than the department's entire budget this year.

The R18 million allocated over the next three years for implementation of the Communal Land Rights Bill also falls far short of the estimated R5 billion a year that is needed. The ACDP will not be able to support this Budget Vote.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, grondhervorming is 'n baie sensitiewe saak in Suid-Afrika. Inteendeel is dit 'n baie emosionele saak.

Almal is op rekord dat hulle gesê het ons kan nie die pad van Zimbabwe volg as ons van grondhervorming praat nie. In verband met die uitgaande agb Minister, is die VF op rekord dat ons jammer is dat sy uitgaan. Ek moet sê dat op die einde het sy 'n sekere boer se saak vinnig opgelos, so my dank aan haar omdat sy dié probleem opgelos het.

Ons, sal agb Minister van Grondsake dophou, maar ek wil net vir haar van die begin af sê dat ons moet ophou om die boere te blameer as daar probleme in grondhervorming ontstaan. Dit is administratiewe probleme. Die probleem waarna ek verwys het, het twee jaar gevat om opgelos te word, as gevolg van administrasie.

As ons die administrasie probleme oplos, dan los ons die frustrasie op van grondhervorming, en dan kan ons vorentoe gaan. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, land reform is a very sensitive matter in South Africa. On the contrary, it is a very emotional matter.

Everyone is on record as having said that we cannot follow in the footsteps of Zimbabwe when we talk about land reform. Regarding the hon Minister who is leaving, the FF is on record as having said that we are sorry that she is leaving. I must say that, in the end, she resolved the matter of a certain farmer quickly, so my party wants to thank her for solving this problem.

We will keep an eye on the new hon Minister of Land Affairs, but I just want to tell her from the start that we will have to stop blaming the farmers when problems occur in land reform. These are administrative problems. The problem to which I referred took two years to be solved, as a result of administration.

If we solve the administration problem, then we will solve the frustration in land reform, and then we can move on. Thank you.]

Mr L M GREEN: Hon Speaker, I think we must come to the realisation and we must accept that we have a history in this nation of land dispossession. We have a very long and traumatic history of land that was taken away from people, and therefore, that land must be returned. In some way or other, there must be a way in which that land is returned. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

So, the FD believes that righting the wrongs of the past must be based on the biblical principles of restitution and restoration. It is no use if you take or steal a man's car and then you come to him and say to him, ``Please forgive me. I have done wrong'', but you still keep the car! [Laughter.]

In order for you to prove that you are sorry for what you have done, you ask for forgiveness and you give the car back. [Interjections.] Exactly! This is the position of the FD – that restoration is a painful process, but I think that it must be emphasised and efforts must be made to restore the land.

When there is superfluous land that the state owns and it is not used also directly, that land must also be made available for the residential needs of communities that have been historically disadvantaged.

It is for this reason, with all the humps and with all the problems, that the FD will support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I wish to respond to the hon member Nel. He spoke about expropriated funds not utilised. I am sure he meant ``appropriated funds not utilised.'' [Interjections.]

Praat altyd met my in Afrikaans dan verstaan ek jou goed. [Always speak to me in Afrikaans, then I will understand you well.]

I want to remind the hon member Nel that with respect to land restitution, paying out to farmers and so forth, he himself is aware of how farmers give us trouble in negotiating prices and coming to some terms, and therefore, you must expect funds not to be utilised when people don't play their part.

Furthermore, he speaks about irresponsible statements made by officials. Well, the hon member did not, in the portfolio committee, bring to our attention anything irresponsible that he had heard of. So, we cannot attend to it. He must please bring it up in the portfolio committee.

Then he said that he hopes that the new Minister will attend to problems. Well, give her a chance! She is new. She is not second-hand. Thank you. [Laughter.]

With regard to the hon member Cupido, his speech here was about R4 billion per year that will be needed. He said here today that they are not going to support this budget, which means that we must go outside there and tell all the people that the ACDP, standing for all those Christian principles, does not want people's land to be restored to them.

There I want to tie with what the hon Louis Green had to say. That was 100% correct. We need to restore the land of the people whose land was stolen arbitrarily. Therefore, you remind me, hon member Green, about the 1896 fort ...

U weet, jy moet daardie ding waarvan die battery selde sterk is, en dikwels dood is, minstens vier slingerdraaie draai, voordat hy aan die brand kan kom, want ek wonder hoeveel keer sal 'n mens die lede hier wat teen hierdie begroting gaan stem se slingers moet draai om hulle aan die brand te kry, om hierdie begroting te ondersteun. [Applous.] Ten slotte, agb lede, ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[You know, you must crank that thing around whose battery is hardly ever strong and often flat, at least four times before it will start up, because I wonder how many times one will have to crank the members who are going to vote against this budget to get them going, to support this budget. [Applause.] In conclusion, hon members ...]

... the ANC supports ...

volmondig ... [whole-heartedly ...]

... this budget. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: I rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

Mr M J ELLIS: The hon Abram said that the Minister was a new Minister and not a second-hand Minister. That implies that any Minister that has been in office for some time is second-hand, and I suspect that that is unparliamentary! [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: We will examine that point of order.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 30 - Minerals and Energy – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Adv P S SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, due to executive mismanagement, a looming energy crisis is facing South Africa as Eskom has basically run out of baseload generation capacity. The forthcoming winter will ensure that load-shedding will be a certainty, as is currently being experienced in the Western Cape.

The Minister of Trade and Industry, on the day before the local government election on 1 March 2006, stated that the failure of the Koeberg nuclear reactor was due to sabotage and undertook to ensure that that would be investigated properly. Despite various undertakings, Parliament and its various committees still await such a report. The question could well be asked as to when, if ever at all, we will receive such a report?

With respect to REDs, it is clear that RED 1 can merely be described as an outsourced function of the Cape Town metro council. In addition thereto, Cabinet has arbitrarily increased the number of REDs from six to seven whilst the boundaries have been changed to reflect the six metros, with the so-called national-regional RED comprising all the other municipal councils. The state of affairs, with respect to the implementation and constitutionality of issues is, at best, disgraceful.

The Oilgate saga is a clear example of the manipulation of state entities to the benefit of the ANC at the expense of the public. It is an undisputable fact that R11 million was paid to the ANC a few months before the 2004 election by Imvume. Imvume secured lucrative oil contracts from the Iraqi government through the assistance of senior ANC members, including the ANC secretary-general and the ANC treasurer-general, leading to this enormous payback as thanks for their efforts.

The ANC should be forced to pay back this money which it extorted from Petrosa at the expense of the South African public. The breakdown in the supply of fuel during December 2005 and during 2006 as well as the looming fuel crisis we are facing, once again, can only be regarded as abysmal. The Ministry's failure in both these instances is totally unacceptable. The DA opposes this budget.

Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, the ID objects to the Minerals and Energy Budget Vote as we believe that very little forward thinking and resources are being dedicated towards moving South Africa away from its traditional polluting energy sources. It is simply business as usual, with the vast bulk of money being ploughed into coal, hydro and nuclear power and without enough focus being put on how we can position South Africa as a world leader in renewable energy production.

Our scientists might be coming up with cutting-edge technology, but this is not being financially supported enough to turn that research into a leading industry for South Africa. On the other hand, we have seen the failure of the central energy-generation system in Cape Town, with the enormous cost to businesses and households in the city.

We desperately need some forward thinking and creative solutions that can decrease rather than increase our reliance on nuclear energy. For this and other reasons, we will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mnu E N MTHETHWA: Somlomo, kunzima kwesinye isikhathi ukuphendula umuntu uma ebhibhidla. Inkinga ye-DA ukuthi ikhuluma ngokungabi khona komthamo wokuphehla amandla kagesi. Iwona lo monakalo esiwulungisayo enawuyeka nangawulungisa ngesikhathi nilapha kuhulumeni.

USchmidt ukhulume ngendaba ye-Regional Electricity Distributor, RED, kazwelonke. Njengoba kunekazwelonke, ayisekho eyesifunda. Kufuneka senze imihlangano yokucobelelana ulwazi nani ukuze nikwazi ukuyiqonda into efana ne-RED yesifunda ne-RED kazwelonke. Kufuneka niziqonde lezi zinto.

Usuyolala udle i-Oilgate. Irekhodi lakho seliklwebhekile, baba. Lilahle manje. Kade wawuyisho le nto nangonyaka odlule. Ayizukunisiza ngalutho futhi ayinisi ndawo.

Leli lungu le-ID aliyazi indaba yokuthi kunama-bio fuels. Woza emihlanganweni. Usubalekile, woza. Ngonyaka odlule ubuyihambela kahle imihlangano. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr E N MTHETHWA: Madam Speaker, it is sometimes difficult to answer someone who is just maundering. The problem of the DA is that they speak of the shortage in the generation capacity. This is the very mess that they did not correct whilst they were still in government.

Hon Schmidt spoke of the national-regional Regional Electricity Distributor, RED. As we now have the national RED, we have since done away with the regional one. We need to workshop them so that they can also understand the difference between the national and the regional RED. They need to understand these things.

It seems that the Oilgate saga has since became hon Schmidt's daily bread. His record has become somewhat shabby. He should seriously consider leaving this topic. Even last year he was always telling us about it. All this will sadly not help him at all. It does not take his party any further.

This hon member from the DA does not know that we have biofuels. We invite this member to attend the portfolio committee meetings. He has since stopped attending portfolio committee meetings. At least last year he was always present in the portfolio committee meetings.]

You were a good boy.

Buya-ke baba khona uzoziqonda kahle izinto. Kunesu le-bio fuel esikhuluma ngalo. Lona lizozilungisa zonke lezi zinkinga zenu. Sihlale sishanela umonakalo wenu; ningasibambezeli kulesi sikhathi.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[This member should consider attending portfolio committee meetings so that he can understand things. We have a plan for the biofuel that we are talking about. This type of fuel will sort out all these problems that the opposition has. We always clean up their mess; they dare not delay us this time.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, we don't have "good boys" in the House, we have hon members. [Laughter.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 229: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasrils, R; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z;

NOES - 44: Batyi, F; Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Waters, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 31 - Science and Technology – put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry – put and agreed to.

Vote No 33 – Transport – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S B FARROW: Speaker, Minister, although your budget has shown some improvement in meeting the priorities laid down by your department, it still has some glaring omissions and inclusions, with which we in the DA have a problem.

The first is the old favourite: the increasing backlogs in road maintenance, which analysts now put at R200 billion and require funding of approximately R10 billion annually and current expenditure of R1, 75 billion. I am sure you may argue that the current roads expenditure has grown, which we admit, by 13,4% annually since 2002-03 and it's expected to increase by 26% to R3,5 billion in 2008-09. But, Minister, it falls very, very short of the backlog, which I have just mentioned.

No consideration seems to have been taken into account of the fact that Sanro has a road network that's increasing annually, and that it has just inherited another 3 170 km. The bitumen price, which is directly related to the fuel price has almost doubled in the past two years and there is no incremental effect to that.

The second omission relates to the lack of provision for improving the quality of transport operations and broadening access to affordable public transport. For a number of years now the greater part of the department's budget has been spent on subsidising bus and rail operations. The DA believes that this money would be better spent on subsidising all commuter public transport, including taxis.

I say this in the light of the fact that the projected R20 billion that your department has endorsed will be expended over the next three years on the Gautrain rapid rail link. This, despite Parliament's portfolio committee concerns that you should reconsider it. Since the bulk of our public transport systems are in a dire strate and your own department's national travel survey confirmed the high levels of public dissatisfaction with the current rail, bus and taxi services, the mind boggles as to why you should support such a project which in no ways is aimed at the currently marginalised users, from whom you actually claim to have support as the ANC.

The project may further prove to be financially unsustainable and in all likelihood further divide rather than bring the first and second economies together.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr S B FARROW: We have no choice other than to object to this budget. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the government's stated intention to spend large sums on roads, which is the single largest sectoral target of the infrastructure roll-out plan of R372 billion over the next three years.

The state of our roads and the delays with regard to maintenance and repairs have been a major source of concern. I use the roads widely during constituency time. I have already raised the issue of deplorable conditions of certain roads with the Minister. It is disgraceful that the daily road accident toll averages 38 deaths, 21 disabling injuries and 125 serious injuries.

We agree with the hon Cronin that it's, I quote, "a war zone out there" and that these figures are worse than those of Iraq. We urgently need to reduce the number of serious collisions on our roads, which in turn will reduce the number of claims the Road Accident Fund deals with and will assist with the precarious finances of this fund. This, we trust, will be achieved through increased allocations to road repairs and maintenance.

Whilst there has been a measure of criticism that this fund is still insufficient, given enormous backlogs and general delays in repairs and maintenance, the ACDP is satisfied that the urgency of the matter is being recognised. We will therefore support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr L M GREEN: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, the economy of our country is critically dependent on an effective transport system. I think that this budget adequately addresses areas such as development, regulation, support of infrastructure and certain other prime performance areas.

However, hon Minister, I still think that we should have much more emphasis on infrastructure to make a major a contribution to the economic empowerment of persons that have not been economically empowered. Therefore we think that your transport policy must be fundamentally linked to the socioeconomic needs of the population.

With regard to this budget, hon Minister, we are concerned about the communities' safety on train services provided by Metrorail and the SA Rail Commuter Corporation. We know that a lot of money has been made available, especially for SARCC. Concerning this pilot project that has been introduced in the Western Cape to reduce crime, namely the reintroduction of railway police and close circuit television, is the hon Minister satisfied that this year's budget has made sufficient provision for commuters using public transport? Is the hon Minister satisfied that there is sufficient provision to protect especially innocent commuters from being killed in those trains? I thank you. The FD will support this Budget Vote.

Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Speaker, hon Farrow, we don't claim to have the support of the overwhelming majority of the poor and the working class in South Africa, we do have that support! [Interjections.]

This budget reflects a welcome increase allocated to transport. If you go back three years and then go forward three years to the outer years of this MTEF, you will find that the transport budget has virtually doubled over this six-year period. That is very welcome. It increases by some 18,1% on average per year.

Included in these increases are a significant spend of some R1,6 billion for passenger rail infrastructure over the MTEF period and also a very significant spend on national roads, some R3,5 billion by the outer years of this MTEF.

There is, of course, the small matter of the Gautrain's R7,2 billion allocated over the same MTEF period. As you know, we can't amend money Bills yet in Parliament. Minister of Finance, we have no intention of increasing the budget allocated to transport but we might want to consider looking at how much is being spent on some items. We can't amend it, but we certainly do commit ourselves to monitoring very closely the allocation to the Gautrain.

Budgets are not just about statistics and money, there are also commitments and responsibilities. The other members have correctly raised the huge challenges that the department, the agencies that fall under the department and indeed the portfolio committee here in Parliament have in regard to particularly public transport, which is in a dire state. I think we all accept a huge responsibility for that and indeed also for the very high levels of fatalities and injuries on our roads. This budget provides us with a platform to address those.

It's our job as the ANC, and indeed that of all other parties here in Parliament, to make sure that we use this money wisely and effectively. The ANC obviously supports this budget. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry – put and agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 17:04.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

FRIDAY, 9 JUNE 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provincesa

The speaker and the Chairperson

1. Translations of Bills submitted

(1) The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

(a) Wysigingswetsontwerp op Registrasie van Aktes [W 5 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75)

This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 5 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

(b) Wysigingswetsontwerp op Deeltitels [W 8 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75)

This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 5 –2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

MONDAY, 12 JUNE 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Withdrawal of Bills

The Minister of Housing withdrew the following Bill on 7 June 2006:

(a) Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Amendment Bill [B11 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75).

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Membership of the Assembly

(1) The following member vacated his seat in the National Assembly with effect from 9 June 2006:

Ndou, R S, Mr.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

(a) Government Notice No 416 published in Government Gazette No 28795 dated 12 May 2006: Setting out particulars of the area demarcated by the Municipality of Emalahleni which shall constitute as an urban development zone, in terms of section 13 quat of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

(b) Government Notice No 357 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of, the year 2006 Natura pure gold coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

(c) Government Notice No 358 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 Protea coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

(d) Government Notice No 359 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 R1 and R2 pure gold coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

(e) Government Notice No 360 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 Crown size 2½ ct sterling silver coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

(f) Government Notice No 361 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 sterling silver coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

(g) Government Notice No 602 published in Government Gazette No 28798 dated 12 May 2006: Listing and classification of public entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).

(h) Government Notice No 403 published in Government Gazette No 28771 dated 26 April 2006: Notice to be issued in terms of section 18A to determine public benefit activities for purposes of deductible donations to certain public benefit organisations, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (58 of 1962).

2. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

(a) General Notice No 657 published in Government Gazette No 28854 dated 19 May 2006: Proposed guidelines as part of the implementation of Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations in terms of section 24(5) the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).

(b) Government Notice No R494 published in Government Gazette No 28869 dated 2 June 2006: Regulations: Qualification criteria, training and identification of and forms to be used by environmental management inspectors, in terms of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).

TUESDAY, 13 JUNE 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

(1) The Minister of Finance

(a) Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill [B 14 – 2006].

Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 77) and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 13 June 2006.

In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.

(b) Second Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2006] [Explanatory memorandum of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 8932 of 9 June 2006].

Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 75) and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 13 June 2006.

In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.

2. Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1) Second Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister of Finance on 13 June 2006.

3. Bill to be referred to Mediation Committee

(1) Bill, as amended by National Assembly, and rejected by National Council of Provinces on 13 June 2006, to be referred to Mediation Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(2)(b):

(a) Older Persons Bill [B 68D – 2003] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

(1) Convention on the Conservation and Management of Fishery Resources in the South East Atlantic Ocean (SEAFO), tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration on the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions.

The Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said convention.

Request to be considered.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment Bill, 2006 [B 11 - 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 13 June 2006:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the subject matter of the Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B11 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, endorses the classification of the Bill and reports the Bill with an amendment [B 11A -2006].

The Committee wishes to report further, as follows: While the Committee initiated an amendment further extending the deadline –

(a) by which legislation in the place of sections 12 and 20 and the Third Schedule to the Black Administration Act, 1927, must be enacted; and

(b) when the said provisions will be repealed, from 31 May 2007 to 30 September 2007, in effect, giving the Department more time to prepare legislation in this regard, the Committee, in carrying out its oversight responsibility, requests the following from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development by not later than 15 February 2007:

(i) A report, setting out the progress made to date on the development of an interim policy framework that aims to determine the role and responsibilities of traditional leaders in relation to the administration of justice, including an indication of the consultation process and research undertaken.

(ii) A plan of action, prepared in conjunction with all roleplayers, including Parliament and the National House of Traditional Leaders, setting out the steps after 15 February 2007, leading up to the enactment and implementation of the substitute legislation emanating from the interim policy framework, including, among others, the proposed dates by when the draft legislation will be –

· submitted to Cabinet;

· submitted to the State Law Advisers for certification;

· submitted to the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces in terms of Joint Rule 159 of the Joint Rules of Parliament;

· introduced into Parliament;

· submitted by the Secretary to Parliament to the National House of Traditional Leaders in terms of section 18(1)(a) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003;

· finalised by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and approved by the National Assembly, taking into account the 30 day period which the National House of Traditional Leaders has to comment on the draft legislation in terms of the said section 18;

· finalised by the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and approved by the National Council of Provinces;

· submitted to the President;

· ready to be put into operation, after the necessary subordinate legislation, if any, has been prepared.

Report to be considered.


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