Hansard: NA: Questions to the President

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 06 Nov 2013

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 444

"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,24 Jan 2014,"Take 444 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"

"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,06 Nov 2013,"[Take-444] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mn].doc"

START OF DAY

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

WEDNESDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 2013

______

The House met at 15:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

QUESTION 13

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 444

START OF DAY

Question 13:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, the position of African leaders in the International Criminal Court, ICC, is based on Africa's quest for an equitable world order, where all regions of the world would be treated equally. It is also based on the need to cement hard-won peace and stability in areas that have been ravaged by conflict. It is not at all designed to create an impression that certain leaders may be above the law.

The African Union, AU, is committed to equality before the law and to fighting impunity, hence the process of expanding the mandate of the African Court of Justice and Human Rights, which would help us to promote finding African solutions to African problems. The recommendation that sitting heads of state should not stand trial in a manner that would disrupt governance in their countries will not necessarily result in heads of state extending their terms of office. The African Union has its own instruments for promoting adherence to democratic principles, such as the Charter of Good Governance and the African Peer Review Mechanism.

What we are guarding against is a situation where countries that had moved to a semblance of stability suddenly regress due to a vacuum that would be created when leaders are taken away to stand trial. Africa prides itself on the progress made thus far in promoting peace and democracy. The measures suggested are merely designed to promote stability and ensure that peace takes root in areas that have been racked by conflict. It is not at all designed to promote undemocratic tendencies or a culture of impunity for heads of state. I thank you.

Mnu J B SIBANYONI

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 444

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

IsiZulu:

Mnu J B SIBANYONI: Somlomo, ngibonge Mongameli impendulo yakho enhle futhi ezwakalayo kanye nomsebenzi eniwenzayo nikanye ne-African Union ezwenikazi lase-Afrika. Umbuzo wami Mongameli uthi: Selokhu kwaphakanyiswa lesi sicelo sokuthi ake kumiwe kungashushiswa abaphethe, ngabe sekukhona yini inqubekelaphambili eseyenzekile? Uma ngabe isikhona uMongameli angachazela iPhalamende ukuthi sekuhanjwe kwafikwa kuphi? Ngiyabonga.

UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, ngemuva kokuba kuthathwe lesi sinqumo, sizokhumbula phela ukuthi isinqumo sasithi sisekela isicelo esenziwa nguMongameli waseKenya ukuthi umcimbi lo wokuthi bayohlala laphaya enkantolo kuze kuphele icala bobabili nePhini lakhe ube umthetho waseKenya ucacile ukuthi uma bengekho bobabili awuvumeli ukuthi kube khona umuntu ongabamba ezikhundleni zabo, kuyosho ukuthi akunamuntu esikhundleni nje. Uma ebhala leso sicelo sase siyesekwa yiwo wonke amalungu e-African Union. I-African Union yase imisa ikomidi labantu abahlanu okuyibona abazoxhumana noMkhandlu wokuPhepha. Osekwenzekile ukuthi abaseKenya sebebiziwe ukuthi bake bayolumana indlebe kanye namalungu oMkhandlu wokuPhepha. Kusho ukuthi isikhona inqubekelaphambili, okungokokuqala ngqa ukuthi kube khona umnyakazo owenzekayo ngemuva kwesicelo. Ilapho indaba la ikhona kumanje. Ngiyabonga Somlomo. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana):

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 444

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

English:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Mr Speaker, hon President, I must admit that you anticipated me, because I was going to say that. In view of the African continent having successfully established Nepad and the African Union as geoeconomic and political entities respectively, founded on the universal principles of self-determination, how far is the African Union in empowering the African Court of Justice or tribunal so that it is able to dispense justice directly in the cases where acts of abuse of human rights, genocide, torture, etc, are committed on the African continent by any other person or persons irrespective of the position they hold? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, I am very happy that the hon member was listening very attentively. I have already indicated that we are moving with upgrading the African Court of Justice and Human Rights and also creating other necessary mechanisms of addressing the issues that the hon member has just raised. This matter has been discussed very extensively. I am saying that we do have our judicial officers on the continent who are competent. Therefore, we should create the facilities, partly because the issue really is not to allow people to do wrong things. If we have concerns about the ICC, we should, therefore, create our own mechanisms or improve on our mechanisms. That is under way. Thank you, hon Speaker.

Mr T BOTHA

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 444

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr T BOTHA: Mr President, given the history of many African leaders who rise to power through undemocratic and sometimes violent means, is this resolution not likely to encourage some of those who came to power through these means to want to stay in power indefinitely and therefore deny justice to the poor who have been victims of such violent actions? President, do you not agree that justice delayed is justice denied? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the matter was discussed very extensively once again. I clearly made the point that this decision is not encouraging impunity. We are, in fact, fighting against such tendencies on the continent. I am sure the hon member will recall that the AU has taken a very serious decision that there will be no unconstitutional changes of government on the continent. Those who do so will not be part of the AU and they will be dealt with by the AU itself. That is why coups have almost disappeared from the continent. Those kinds of leaders who emerged through coups d'état or by violent means, are no longer acceptable. We are saying that we can only accept leaders who come to power through constitutional means. So, that issue has been addressed very clearly on the continent, that there would be no one who will ever enjoy the support of the AU and its members if that individual has come in through unconstitutional means.

Therefore, there is no way that the resolution would be supporting such people. In fact, we are very clear on this one. There were specific reasons why this decision was taken in the manner in which it was done. It was not at all trying to hide those who are doing wrong things. We are very strong in ensuring that democracy is deepened and broadened on the continent so that we are able to ensure that people on the continent participate in the running of their own affairs. That process has gone very far. Rest assured, the resolution was not attempting to shield strong people, or the strongmen, as people say. Thank you, hon Speaker.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION

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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, during the 2007 presidential elections in Kenya, ethnic violence killed more than a thousand Kenyan citizens. In Sudan over 300 000 have died since 2003 as a consequence of the internal conflict in Darfur. In 1946 the then president-general of the ANC, Dr A B Xuma, in a letter to the United Nations expressed, and I quote:

...a feeling of despair and frustration of the people who have no Court of Appeal because their government is party to the cause of their complaint.

Mr Speaker, will the hon President explain to this House how he can reconcile his support for the president and the deputy president of Kenya not appearing before the International Criminal Court with his own party struggle for justice internationally during apartheid? Are the people of Kenya not equally entitled to justice at the ICC? I thank you. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the AU has not taken the decision that these two leaders must not appear before the ICC. I would help the hon member to get the background as to why this decision was taken so that we can be on the same page. [Interjections.]

What happened in Kenya after the previous elections? There was violence. Those two leaders, who are now the president and the deputy president in the same party, were in opposition groups. It was their followers who fought and killed one another. Of course, there were charges to this effect. The situation in Kenya at the time, particularly the judiciary, did not enjoy the confidence of the Kenyan people and they did not think the trial would be fair within Kenya. It was Kenyan people who, therefore, referred the case to the International Criminal Court so that there would be a fair trial.

Whilst the processes were going on, those two leaders took the initiative to discuss the conflict, unite their people, reconcile them and bring about peace, which they succeeded in doing. They did not just unite the two opposition groups, but even agreed to come together and campaign together so that the very same people who had killed one another actually ended up voting for thw two of them. This was an unprecedented thing on the continent. If there had been conflict, what was desired was that there should be peace and the reconciliation of people. That was what they did in the process.

Bear in mind that the case took the whole term before it came to fruition. During this time, they did not sit back and wait for the case. They actually worked to bring about peace and stability in Kenya. That is why the last elections were so peaceful. These two groups that were fighting were then united and voted for those two leaders. You are talking about two people who had played a very specific role to address the problems that had led to the death of so many people.

When they were campaigning the issue arose of what would happen when the International Criminal Court proceeded? They responded by saying that they would certainly comply and collaborate with the court. They would be there to be tried and to clear their names. What then happened, when the time came for them to go to court, as they knew that if they were both going to sit at the International Criminal Court there would be a problem in Kenya, because the Kenyan constitution does not allow anyone else to act except the deputy president. If both of them were going to go to the International Criminal Court and sit there until the case was over, that would have meant no one would have been running Kenya. They then communicated with the court and asked it to allow them to come when the case started, then to come back to allow the case to continue with the lawyers and all the necessary steps that would be taken during the court trial proceedings. They undertook, once the case closed, to come and receive the judgment. The ICC agreed.

They did not refuse to go to court. They wanted to go to court, but were also addressing a specific issue in terms of the requirements of the Kenyan constitution. Then, the prosecutor as well as one nongovernmental organisation, NGO, appealed against that decision of the International Criminal Court. After the hearing had taken place, the court changed its decision and said whatever happened they had to come to court and sit in from the beginning of the case to the end. That is what caused anxiety.

The question was what then would happen to Kenya whilst they were away? It meant Kenya will collapse. [Interjections.] No, that is your own view. It is your own view that the Cabinet could run Kenya. That is your own view. The constitution of Kenya does not give the Cabinet or anyone the authority to run that country, only the president and the deputy president. That is the constitution. Those are people who adhere to the rule of law and who run a constitutional democracy. [Interjections.] That is what caused the problem.

Then the question was what would happen? That is why made all leaders say, why this? This is a reasonable thing. They are co-operating. The decision which is being changed was taken initially with an understanding. Now, the court is thinking differently, which will cause a problem. They asked: "what is the recourse?" Their recourse in this instance was to appeal to the AU in order for that matter to be discussed. They did not say that they were not coming. That is why there was an extraordinary session of the AU.

What also influenced the AU was the fact that their first request to defer the warrant of arrest of another leader on the continent was ignored by the Security Council. That is why a feeling developed that when it comes to Africa, the attitude is different than other regions. This is the one that we were talking about earlier. In Darfur, there was conflict when a warrant for the arrest of President Bashir was issued. The negotiations were at a delicate stage and Bashir was a key factor. If Bashir moved way, the process would collapse. The AU had requested that the warrant for arrest should be deferred so that once everything had been done peace would be attained, when the warrant for arrest could be reissued and Bashir could be dealt with.They were ignored.

It dawned on the African leaders that they were being treated differently and asked why. That is what led to their discussing the issue. It was discussed very seriously and they finally arrived at this. If the leaders looked at what they did to bring peace, stability and uniting the Kenyan people, it is clear that it was not as if they were not keen to do something. In fact, as they presented their case to the summit, they quoted a number of leading countries that are not members of the ICC, but were leading democracies who felt that if they were part of it, it would disrupt their own internal running of their own countries. There were countries that are in the Security Council that are members of the ICC against whom decisions had been made.

The matter was discussed thoroughly and it was looked at from every angle. Therefore, the AU said that it was supporting Kenya to lodge an appeal that the ICC should reconsider the decision. It did not just end there. It established a group of five to engage the Security Council in discussions of the matter. We as the AU said those leaders should be treated fairly. That is the background and that is why the decision was taken. Thank you. [Applause.]

QUESTION 14 / GG / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 445

"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,11 Nov 2013,"Take 445 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"

QUESTION 13

Question 14:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon member, no, I had no prior knowledge of, involvement in or communication relating to the landing of a private plane at Air Force Base Waterkloof. The President is neither directly nor indirectly involved in the authorisation of civilian aircraft landing at airbases like AFB Waterkloof. I thank you. [Applause.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, a senior officer in the SA National Defence Force has stated under oath that a call was received by Mr Bruce Kholoane informing her that the President wanted to know, "if everything is still on track for the flight". Will the President, today, confirm or deny whether this is, indeed, what happened – whether it happened via official, unofficial, informal or formal channels.

If the answers is that he did know about the landing, can the hon President explain to this House how that could possibly be the case, in the light of the fact that the landing at Waterkloof AFB included three fixed-wing aircrafts, seven helicopters, 88 vehicles and 490 personnel, 194 of whom were employees of the state? How could the President possibly not have known, when several members of his own Cabinet, including the Minister of Defence, had knowledge of this request? Thank you. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, there are so many thousands of people who land at airports in this country, at many people. The President knows nothing about those people. [Laughter.][Applause.] The fact that you are counting how many people have landed ... there are so many. There are some who land at Lanseria and some at OR Tambo. Why should the President know about these numbers? I have given the answer. I had no knowledge. I know nothing about it and I can't answer on behalf of an official in some military tribunal. That is not my business. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M S BOOI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 445

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr M S BOOI: Mr Speaker, hon President, thank you for being precise in answering this particular question and for the hope and confidence that you have given us. We want you to continue explaining to the broader public how your office operates regarding communication so that it becomes very clear to the broader public that you are not responsible for the day-to-day operation of your office and what happens in it. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the job of the President is not to clear or authorise landings. That has nothing do with the President. [Applause.] The President leads and supervises government, but does not get involved in operations. Any aircraft of any description landing at whatever airport has nothing to do with the President. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D J MAYNIER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 445

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr D J MAYNIER: Mr Speaker, Mr President, the root cause of the Guptagate scandal had very little to do with the landing of a commercial aircraft at AFB Waterkloof. It had everything to do with your relationship with the Gupta family, because there is a perception that when the Guptas say jump, the Zumas say, "How high?" That is what created the culture of influence in which senior officials could credibly claim that they were acting on the instructions of Number One. And it is precisely because of the concerns about undue influence that the State Security Agency, SSA, launched an investigation into the conduct of the Gupta family. So, my question is: Were you aware that the SSA was investigating the conduct of the Gupta family, and did you do anything or did any member of your Cabinet intervene to stop the SSA's investigation into the conduct of the Gupta family? I ask this because, in the end, any investigation into the conduct of the Gupta family will be an investigation into the conduct of the Zuma family. Thank you. [Time expired.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, unless the hon member was not in this room when I did so, I should like to point out that he is asking a question that I have already answered. The question was whether I knew about this incident. I answered that I did not. But he still asked the same question, whether I knew that there was an investigation, etc. I have answered the question! Maybe he jumps higher than the others, I don't know, because he talks about jumping. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mr D J MAYNIER: Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

The SPEAKER: Please sit down, hon member, I have not recognised you.

Hon members, may I remind you that supplementary questions must relate to the main question. [Interjections.]

Mr Maynier, what is your point of order.

Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, my point of order is that I put a question to the President and he did not answer it. The question, with respect, sir, was whether you were aware of the SSA's investigation into the conduct of the Gupta family and if you did anything to stop that investigation. You did not answer that question. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Order, hon members!

Mnu M A NHANHA

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The SPEAKER

IsiXhosa:

Mnu M A NHANHA: Somlomo, Nxamalala lo mcimbi awuvumi ukuba udede, abantu basoloko bethetha ngawo lonke ixesha. Umba walo mcimbi unzima kwaye masithembe ukuba namhlanje uza kuwuphendula ukuze sohlukane nawo. Amagosa phaya aphantsi kwendoda ethile enxiba ibharaklava, uMzekezeke ebizwa ukuba ingu-Number One.

English:

In each and every report, Mr President, there is this Mzekezeke guy called "Number One". To your knowledge, Mr President, can you tell this House who this "Number One" could be? [Ngubani uMzekezeke?] [Laughter.]

IsiXhosa:

UMONGAMELI WERIPHABLIKI: Somlomo, hayi lo mcimbi othi wena awupheli, awupheli apha kuwe, unzima apha kuwe. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Okokuqala ndiza kumazela phi uMzekezeke? Ndibazela phi abo bantu? Uyabona nawe xa ubuza ukuba enye into ke ngoku. Uthi wena kukho indoda efake ibharaklava ekuthiwa ngu-Number one, ndiza kuyazela phi mna indoda engu-Number one? Ndiyabulela Somlomo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

English:

Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: It appears we have some cheerleaders in the gallery and that is not acceptable in this House. Could you please tell them?

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Yes, that is correct. Members in the gallery may listen but may not participate by clapping.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Mr Speaker, may I address you?

The SPEAKER: Yes.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Speaker, the interpreting service is not up to scratch and we are missing a lot of the translation. Can it be attended to, please?

The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. We... [Interjections.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: I didn't say it was a point of order, sir.

The SPEAKER: Okay, the table staff will follow up on it, hon member.

QUESTION 15 – The President of the Republic /Sam(Eng.)//nvs / /LN(Xhosa)// END OF TAKE/

UNREVISED HANSARD

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QUESTION 14

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QUESTION 14

15:34:42

Question 15:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon member, the African Union has taken a strong position about promoting intra-Africa trade. One of the best mechanisms of achieving this is through regional integration and infrastructure development.

To promote regional integration, work is ongoing to create a Tripartite Free Trade Area among the Regional Economic Communities of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, the East African Community, and Southern African Development Community. The ultimate goal is to establish a single Customs Union.

The three Regional Economic Communities comprise 26 countries, a combined population of close to 600 million people, and a combined Gross Domestic Product of just under US$1 trillion. Discussions have taken place on how tariffs will be phased down and also on the exchange of tariff liberalisation offers. The free trade area will also enable us to deal with the soft infrastructure issues impeding trade and the efficient and effective movement of goods, services and people, such as the setting up of one-stop border posts.

A general obstacle in intra-African trade is the inadequate infrastructure on the continent. It is for this reason that we have a continental infrastructure programme within the ambit of the AU to develop effective modes of transport, including quality roads, railways, air transport and ports as well as energy, water and communications, to name a few.

The work being done through my role as the champion of the North-South Corridor and as chair of the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Initiative will have a direct impact on the ease of doing business between countries and regions.

The improvement of physical infrastructure across the continent will contribute directly to the attainment of the core objectives of the trilateral free trade area, which are to facilitate intra-regional trade, diminish nontrade barriers and boost the economic growth of member states.

The North-South Corridor, which is currently conceived as being from Durban to Dar-es-Salaam, comprises 157 projects which are in various stages of the project's life cycle. These are 59 road projects, 38 rail projects and 6 bridge projects. The ultimate goal is to expand the corridor to run from the Cape to Cairo. We continue to encourage companies involved in infrastructure development to invest in Africa, in these projects. Returns on foreign investment in African infrastructure remain very high.

In March this year we invited African heads of state and governments who are part of the New Partnership for Africa's Development, Nepad, Infrastructure head of state and government committee to interact with the leaders of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics. This African retreat enabled the Brics countries to further appreciate the opportunities beyond South Africa. It is also encouraging that African governments are increasingly investing in infrastructure.

As of early this year, African governments and private sources combined were investing about US$72 billion a year in new infrastructure across the continent. Our own country is to spend

R4 trillion over 15 years on boosting social and economic infrastructure. I thank you. [Applause].

Mr B A RADEBE

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Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 446

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon President, the Pan-African leaders like the late President Kwame Nkrumah, Julius Nyerere and O R Tambo will be very pleased with the work that you are doing in leading the layout of the infrastructure, connecting the African states. What is very important here, Speaker, is that in promoting the free trade area, we are going to promote the intra-Africa trade, which is very low. However, one of the factors that leads to the low intra-Africa trade is the inharmonious economic policies between the member states. Take for example, one country which is industrialised like South Africa will use the tariffs as a way of protecting the infant industry, but another, weaker country will use the tariffs as a means of generating revenue for the country. Are there any institutional mechanisms in place that will ensure that the economic policies are harmonised throughout the tripartite free trade area? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, part of the reason the process cannot be an overnight one, and it will take time is whilst we have taken the initiative, we have to look at the number of things that need to be looked at so that one can arrive at a situation where once there is an intra-trade free zone, you do not have other activities that will undermine such unity and such coming together of the countries.

That will certainly address the issue of either goods or cheap goods that might come from other countries through these countries. We would certainly have regulations to regulate that so that the economy is harmonised properly, and therefore those matters, by the time we conclude the process, would have been addressed. Thank you.

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Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 446

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Dr W G JAMES: Mr Speaker, the reason why the SADC free trade area initiative is wrongly described as uninspiring is because the hon President has stood by during the dismantling of the SADC Judicial Tribunal, an institution essential to the settling of trade disputes. Then, Mr President, on what basis are we to believe that you would also not similarly compromise the emergence of the tripartite free trade area, especially given the fact that few other African leaders are enthusiastic about having you as a champion in the first place? Can you assure us Mr President that you will restore the SADC Judicial Tribunal to settle trade disputes in SADC as your support, having a robust one for settling trade disputes in the Tripartite Free Trade Area? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as far as the SADC Tribunal that was set up there was a specific country that had objections in the manner in which it was set up, for its own reasons. That led to a very prolonged debate on the matter. Finally, the objections of that country meant that the matter needs to be looked at again. That process is being looked at by legal people, because we believe that it is a necessary instrument if we are to have the kind of relations that might need legal minds to resolve any dispute that might come. I do not think we could live without it. So there is no doubt that such an instrument would be essential and necessary. The one that was dismantled was because of the very specific objections that that one country made. Thank you.

Mr G B D MCINTOSH

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Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 446

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Mr Speaker, hon President, the Trade Law Centre, Cosatu and Business Unity of South Africa all support the principle of the Tripartite Free Trade Agreement, but they are concerned that South Africa still has work to do on a clear strategy in our involvement in SADC and the Tripartite Free Trade Agreement and, indeed, on Africa.

Mr Speaker, if the hon President is going to push infrastructure, then the trade will follow behind and I think that is a very commendable thing. My question is, would he not consider calling a small gathering with Shoprite Checkers, Whitey Basson, our cellphone companies, some of the banks we have, and also Agri-SA? All of them had been pushing South African involvement, particularly infrastructure into Africa. Shoprite Checkers have done a huge amount of work to bring trade, lower prices and big opportunities into South Africa. Maybe they could also help in giving some input on what a good process could do in infrastructure terms, which could in due course open up a more effective free trade arrangement.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we are engaging the South African business, we have been discussing with them in many forms. We take them to state visits to interact. We meet with them; they are addressed by heads of states that are present. There is no business that we have not engaged. This process is not being done by government only; business is also there and, in fact, business is investing. Some of the names that the hon member has mentioned are investing in the continent of Africa. We are working together with them. There is no need to do anything more. Of course, it is always useful to have ideas, but it cannot be said that nothing is happening. There are a lot of activities and indeed South Africa is investing. In fact, I think it is almost one of the leading investors on the continent of Africa. Those companies are part of that process. Thank you.

Mr T BOTHA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 446

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr T BOTHA: Hon President, given that you have identified the myriad of obstacles that still stand in the way of this tripartite forum, is there a priority strategy in place to say that these are the items to be dealt with, so that we can meet the target for 2014-15, that you need to achieve in order to reavh this goal? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as I said, there are many things that people are handling; those who are dealing with this matter are addressing the issues. I do not have the list of the issues right here, but what has become important in the continent is that leaders under the auspices of the AU have agreed on these matters. For example, the fact that we need inter-trade is an agreed thing. You need the integration of all five economic regions.

This is just the beginning. We know that there were a number of obstacles, one of them will be infrastructure, because ifyou do not have infrastructure, you cannot drive the economic development. That is one of the major obstacles that we are dealing with which we believe, when we succeed, many other obstacles will fall by the wayside. The others that we have talked about are the borders of the continent. We need soft borders so that we can do the trade in the manner that we need to do it. They are many; the question of energy is one of the issues that we need to deal with on the continent.

There are steps to address those issues, without counting them one by one; we are dealing with these general issues. For example, I am talking about the North-South Corridor, but it is not the only one. There is the East-West Corridor and there are others that are being developed. Some of them are about to be completed. We are dealing with these matters holistically so that when we start talking about integration there will be the easy flow of goods and people. Thank you. [Applause.]

QUESTION 16 / Mm//\\\tfm/// END OF TAKE/

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QUESTION 15

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QUESTION 15

Question 16:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, there were a number of positive economic outcomes that emanated from the successful state visit by the President of the Republic of France to South Africa on 14 and 15 October. The visit will contribute immensely to boosting trade between the two countries and has tangible economic benefits for South Africa.

Our two countries resolved to revive the Joint Economic Committee, through which we will manage all economic activities and trade matters in line with the National Development Plan. This forum will also provide a platform for consultation on regional and global economic issues of mutual concern. We were able to take economic co-operation to a higher level through the hosting of the South Africa-France Business Forum at the Sandton Convention Centre. Within the National Development Plan framework, which is supported by key economic instruments such as the New Growth Path and the Industrial Policy Action Plan, the business community in both countries were encouraged to further expand co-operation in areas such as infrastructure development, agriculture, mining and beneficiation, manufacturing, the green economy and tourism.

Agreements signed included the following. A R51 billion contract was signed by the Passenger Rail Authority of South Africa and Gibela consortium to build commuter passenger trains. This is in line with the Industrial Policy Action Plan aimed at boosting job creation, skills development and local content. A convention for a funding grant of €700 000 was concluded between the South African National Energy Development Institute and the Agence Française de Développement, AFD, or French Development Agency, to promote energy efficiency. A ceremonial letter was signed between Eskom and AFD of France for a loan of €100 million to fund a solar power plant.

A memorandum of understanding was also signed between the Industrial Development Co-operation and AFD. This is a nonlending agreement to govern activities such as research, seminars, partnership and exchange of best practice and information. The agreement will cover sectors such as private sector support and the environment. It is envisaged that bilateral discussions would further build on past achievements and will also assist in devising strategies to address the trade imbalance between the two countries, which is currently in France's favour. These discussions also enabled the two countries to advance their reciprocal trade and investment interests.

Through such engagements, we intend to encourage France as a major trade, investment and technology partner for South Africa to make a greater contribution to the creation of local jobs through the localisation of production. Increased levels of investment and more value-added exports to the huge French market will translate in the creation of quality jobs in key sectors of the South African economy. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms J L FUBBS

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 447

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Ms J L FUBBS: Speaker, through you, just to share with the President, in fact, how much we welcome the key role he is playing in the resurgence of French-South Africa relations. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!

Ms J L FUBBS: These French-South Africa relations will benefit not only South Africa, but also Africa, of which we are part. Hon President, what we welcome is the manner in which you have driven our key policy priorities of job creation and addressing the skills deficit, a legacy of the previous dispensation. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!

Ms J L FUBBS: In this regard, hon President – you see, when the good news is given to people, they do not recognise it, because they are too used to giving out bad news. [Laughter.] I can point out that the trade that we are enjoying, and you yourself now, as our President, have strengthened with France will actually increase the trade of our value-added products from South Africa. [Interjections.] This is very important, because of the key priority of job creation.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms J L FUBBS: Now, my question ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Your time has expired, hon member.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I totally agree with the comments made by the hon member. [Laughter.] They are absolutely accurate. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr W M THRING

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 447

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr W M THRING: Speaker, through you to the hon President, in the light of the visit of President Francois Hollande and the introduction of the National Develop Plan as an umbrella plan to address the challenges of the terrible triplets of poverty, unemployment and inequality in South Africa, and noting that it is unlikely that we will reduce poverty by 50% in 2015 and unemployment remains at some 25% – unacceptably high – and our Gini coefficient is at some 0,7%, amongst the highest in the world, hon President, what is your plan, or government's plan, to rid South Africa of this terrible triplet challenge and to curtail labour market rigidity, so as to increase South Africa's competitiveness, not only in France but also in the global market? I thank you, sir.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I am sure the hon member is aware that government has programmes to deal with the issue of the challenges with regard to unemployment. Indeed, the statistics that have just been released indicate that jobs have been created as a result of these programmes, more than any other time, in terms of the quarterly results that are always given. The figures are there; they were given just a few days ago. Work is being done and the programmes are beginning to show that our policies that we are dealing with are correct. The only problem facing all of us in this country is the huge one of centuries, which you cannot resolve overnight.

The reality is that progress is being made. Therefore, the visit of the French President helped us to agree on some of the economic activities which will help us address these matters, as I have just have said. So, all that we need is for us to come together and support these correct programmes and policies so that we can quickly address these challenges. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana):

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 447

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Speaker, through you to the President, hon President, I am sure this time you had not anticipated me. [Laughter.] A vigilant state will know that international economic interdependence is a suspect route to economic dominance of the weak economies by the strong ones, leading to possible erosion of all forms of sovereignty and integrity. Will the President consider supporting a specific and mandatory meeting of the Departments of International Relations and Co-operation, Trade and Industry, Finance, Economic Development, and Performance Monitoring and Evaluation with the express task of rigorously evaluating the impact of international treaties, international trade agreements and investments on the economic lives of all the communities in South Africa, bearing in mind the state of social inequalities, poverty, and unemployment in the country? Mr President, we believe that this intervention, or anything similar, is imperative to the successful implementation of the National Development Plan. [Time expired.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, at all material times, and regarding any activities that it undertakes, government evaluates. We do not necessarily need a special meeting to do so. We discuss these matters on a continuous basis. We are dealing with these matters.

I think what is important to look at in terms of South Africa... one of the mistakes people make is to view South Africa as a country which has been normal all the time. It addresses very abnormal challenges that were brought about by its past. For example, one of the very glaring ones is education. The huge majority in this country was denied education by law, by everything, so we have to begin to firstly deal with human capital. We have to deal with the majority here and educate people. Therefore, education is important. Dealing with other countries, which, at times, people love comparing; countries that are the same size as South Africa, they never had apartheid. Their flow of development is totally different. We have this specific challenge of, whilst dealing with the economy, we want to see foreign direct investment, etc, but it comes down to this abnormal kind of situation that we are dealing with. Certainly, these are matters we discuss all the time, as we move with our programmes of economic development.

So, all I am saying is that we do not necessarily need a special conference for it. We are dealing with these matters on an ongoing basis. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 447

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF: Speaker, hon President, I am glad to hear about the progress with regard to the relationship with France, but the same must apply to Europe. Europe remains our major trading partner, and it is an important driver for our economic growth. It is also important for our tourism industry, but the fact is that Europe is more important to us than we are to them. However, I am getting the feeling, Mr President, that the relationship is declining.

We have just seen the nonrenewal of bilateral agreements. We have just cancelled the EU-SA Joint Co-operation Council meeting. The European Union is cutting aid towards us, and they are threatening to harm our citrus industry with the black spot issue. Can you reassure us and Europe that we do not take them for granted and that we value them as a major trading partner?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, we have never underplayed our relationship with Europe. We have always – and we know it and we say in public that they are our major partners. We, in fact, have a very special arrangement with them. There are annual meetings between us, as a country, and the European Union, either here in South Africa, or in Europe.

That would not suggest that we are, in a sense, being lukewarm towards Europe; not at all. It is not. However, what has happened is that there has been a global economic meltdown, which has challenged Europe very seriously. This has therefore impacted on the trade that we have as a country. It is not as if things have been normal. They are struggling to get out of their economic problems, but we are continuing with them.

I think it is also important to say that the world is changing. There are emerging economies. Europe is an old economy. The emerging economies, which we are part of, cannot emerge and not make an impact. That is going to impact the relationship that Europe has had with whatever part of the world, including us. So, there are realities that we have to look at. In no way can we say that we cannot relations with them. Certainly, we are going to grow other relationships as well, and those relationships might even be bigger. We are dealing with economies that are growing by huge percentages. Europe's growth is very low, so we are living in a world that we have to react to realistically, so to speak. We absolutely know that they are our old traditional friends and trading partners, but there are other, new friends and trading partners that are emerging. It is a question of how we balance our relationship and our trade with the world, with the globe. It is no longer like before when Europe, for example, dominated certain regions exclusively. Today, the globe has changed, so we relate to the globe as it stands.

So, we are doing very well with Europe. We are doing very well with other parts of the world. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]

QUESTION 17 /Mia / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 448

QUESTION 16"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Nov 2013,"take 448 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"

"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,06 Nov 2013,"[Take-448] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mn].doc"

Question 17:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker and hon member, the tribunal already exists. The Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and the Special Tribunals Act, No 74 of 1996, empower the President to establish Special Tribunals.

The Special Tribunal was established by Proclamation R24 of 1997. The proclamation was made in terms of section 2(1)(b) of the SIU and Special Tribunals Act, No 74 of 1996. Section 4(a), (b) and (c) of the Act provides that functions of the SIU are, inter alia to Investigate all allegations regarding the matter concerned; collect evidence regarding acts or omissions which are relevant to its investigation and, if applicable, to institute proceedings in a Special Tribunal against the parties concerned; and to present evidence in proceedings brought before a Special Tribunal.

The Special Tribunal functioned under various tribunal presidents between 1997 and 2000. As a result of certain adverse findings of our courts, difficulties arose as to the ability of the SIU actually to institute civil proceedings in the Special Tribunal. The result was that the Special Tribunal has not functioned between 2001 and now.

The Act was amended by the Judicial Matters Amendment Act, No 11 of 2012, which came into effect on 2 October 2012. This amendment addressed the issues relating to the ability of the SIU to institute civil proceedings and it will conduct civil litigation flowing from its investigations.

Special Tribunals will be effective forums to deal with matters emanating from investigations by the SIU as it will be able to hear such matters sooner than the ordinary courts, where heavy court rolls often result in delays. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Mrs D A SCHÄFER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 448

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Thank you Mr Speaker, and thank you very much, Mr President, for that response. It is very interesting given that the new head, Adv Vasantrai Soni, at his recent briefing of the portfolio committee specifically said that he was going to approach you to establish a tribunal. So, he clearly is not aware of that. Will the President undertake to have a meeting with Adv Soni as soon as possible to ensure that this tribunal can operate and that it is properly capacitated? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly there will be no problem. The meeting, if requested, will take place and I will hear how he presents that matter. That is certainly within the law, and the requirement will be met. Thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 448

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Xhamela. Mr President, what happens if there is an Act, but it is not implemented and a person presents it as if the Act is not workable? What does the President do in this instance because, as the President, you are supposed to authorise the SIU to investigate. What is happening in this regard?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Once the Act is passed, the appropriate officers and structures use the Act. It is not necessarily the President who utilises the Act. It is either the tribunals or the institutions that do so. The Act is meant to be utilised. You can't charge the President with that and ask why the Act is not working. If you were to ask why the Act is not signed, that would have been a different matter, but once the Act is signed the appropriate structures must utilise it. Katsheni, I am certain that these are the structures that have got to find out why it is not operational. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 448

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Speaker and Mr President, following your reply, the law enforcement agency requires support at all times in order for it to be effective in doing its work, particularly in terms of organised crime and in a range of matters. The legislation that covers the prevention of organised crime, which worked together with the SIU, comes to mind. Following your answer that it had not worked from 2011 to date, has it been brought to the President's attention what the problem is, and what the mechanisms are to resolve it in order for it to be implemented, given the challenges that we have? Surely there must have been information from the cluster itself that indicated what the problems are that we need to resolve, and what needs to be done in order for this particular implementation to take place. Is there a reassurance that, going forward, this is going to be addressed in order for us to be effective in dealing with organised crime in particular?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Certainly, hon Speaker, once these matters are brought before us, we will address them. However, if they are not brought before us, why should we go sniffing around? As I said earlier, that would not be supervising government. Part of your jobs as Members of Parliament is to see these things, raise them here and for them to be brought before us so that they can be attended to. I'm very happy that you are raising these matters. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr L T LANDERS

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 448

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr L T LANDERS: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, arising from your reply, and in order to provide further clarity on the process, is it not true that it is not the President who goes out to ascertain where proclamations are required, but rather that it is the departments and/or state entities that approach the SIU for a preliminary investigation, which results in a request for a presidential proclamation?

Secondly, is the hon President aware that there are four proclamations awaiting Adv Soni's decision to refer them to either the High Court or the Special Tribunal for civil litigation?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, it is as the hon member says. It was contained in my reply where I said that it is the institutions and structures that must indicate what the challenges are that we have are so that we can help and support them, as one hon member said. It is what we will be waiting for and if it comes, we certainly will act.

With regard to the latter part of the question, I wouldn't venture an answer, because as you know, the head of the SIU was appointed not long ago. I wouldn't know how he has settled in, in dealing with either proclamations or other matters. So, I wouldn't be able to say why it has not happened. I assume that the time taken could be because he is applying his mind, but I am sure that he will do the right thing in due course. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

QUESTION 18/Mohau //TH / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 449

QUESTION 17/The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

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National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,06 Nov 2013,"[Take-449] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mn].doc"

QUESTION 17

Question 18:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon member, the Cabinet has decided on several cost-cutting measures in order to provide value for money, minimise costs, stop abuse and, more importantly, ensure that government spending is effectively managed. The measures were announced by the Minister of Finance in this House in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement presentation. These measures build on earlier measures and also on the progress made in the past four years in cutting expenditure and redirecting budgets to our core business, which is service delivery.

As the hon member is now aware, following the budget statement, measures are comprehensive and go beyond the credit cards.

These measures, among others, include the following: standardising the cost limits of official cars; stopping compensation for use of personal cards; limiting Ministers to travelling business class instead of first class; limiting business class travel for government officials; no new credit cards are to be issued and existing ones are to be cancelled immediately; better contract management; developing guidelines to limit nonessential costs in advertising; credit cards are to be withdrawn from all political office bearers and officials within government.

Ministers have already been informed formally of this decision, and other spheres of government are being formally notified as well. The question of tracking expenditure and scrutinising quantums will no longer arise as the cards are being withdrawn completely.

The amendments to the Treasury regulation on the issue of credit cards were published for public comment today, 6 November.

In instances where there have been credit card abuse in the past, the transgressors will be dealt with according to the appropriate regulations and structures. [Interjections.] The executive and Parliamentary Ethics Code, the Public Service Act, the Public Finance Management Act and Treasury regulations outline various processes to be followed in such cases. We will continue to do everything possible to ensure that money goes to the provision of services. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M G P LEKOTA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 449

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Speaker, hon President, when this issue first came out, most people in the country thought that we would see government uprooting Ministers who are corrupt, officials who are corrupt and premiers who are corrupt, especially those who eat more Kentucky than the whole of Khayelitsha can afford. [Laughter.] Today, you are repeating what has already been announced instead of dealing with the corrupt people who are doing that. The hon Minister told us that your Cabinet took a decision that we must eliminate Information Technology, IT, in the form of credit cards, as if the credit card is corrupt ... [Laughter.] ... and leave all the corrupt people sitting there in the provinces or elsewhere.

Now, I must ask you this, hon President, is it your administration's position that you are taking us back to the administrative methods of the early 20th century? The world is moving forward in the 21st century. Information Technology is everywhere. Now, when you eliminate the credit card, which is so efficient, and you leave the corrupt elements, you are creating an even better space for them to advance this corruption. [Interjections.] Is that the conscious decision of your administration? [Time expired.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the decision about the credit cards has been taken to cut costs. The Minister of Finance made it clear to everyone. Given the kind of budget constraints, this was part of a package to deal with cutting costs.

Now, the member is raising the issue again as if he is against that decision and yet he was here and we all agreed. This was supported by the whole House. That is a decision which was taken by the Cabinet, supported 100% by the House. [Applause.] What are you doing? You are suggesting that you were not part of supporting what you think are the old methods; because if that is the case, you were part of the decision. The decision was supported by you. As I have said, it was part of a package dealing with cost cutting. That is the reason why the decision was taken. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!

Mr T A MUFAMADI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 449

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr T A MUFAMADI: Thank you, Mr President, for the detailed response and the information that you have shared with the House, most importantly, about the cost containment measures that will be championed by your Cabinet under your leadership to, amongst others, effectively manage government spending. However, have these measures been greatly welcomed by the vast majority of the population? The key question that remains for me is: For how long will these measures remain in place, and how will Cabinet ensure that the implementation takes place throughout all the spheres of government? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, government is already in the process of implementing. The measures are being taken to ensure that the decisions taken are implemented in all spheres of government. How long the measures will remain, I think would be determined by the financial situation, as you would know, particularly because we are still facing economic challenges. I think we cannot put a cut-off date for now. I think we will be able to handle the matter, look at the situation and see how healthy our finances are. That will determine when the measures could be changed or lifted. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 449

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, the DA welcomes the announcement made by the hon Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan, that the government will be taking a number of steps to tighten the spending parameters for members of the Cabinet and of the government. However, there has been a deafening silence regarding what steps the President himself will take to contribute to these cuts in wasteful expenditure.

When the DA asked the hon Minister in committee about what steps the Presidency will be taking to reduce departmental spending, there was no answer forthcoming. Mr Speaker, there can be no question that on a matter as important to the people of our country as this it is essential that the President be seen to be leading from the front.

Will the President tell the House today what spending cuts he will embark upon in his own department, the Presidency, as well as in the offices of the hon Ministers in the Presidency? I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the decision taken by Cabinet, which was announced by the Minister here, was taken by all members of Cabinet. Firstly, there was no one who was against that decision. Secondly, there was no decision to say specific departments must do something different. This was a decision taken and supported by government across the board. I don't appreciate a situation in which one singles out certain departments from others, because there is absolutely no reason to do so. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Order!

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: This is a decision to save costs by government across the board. That is how it was taken. That is what we are implementing. Whatever falls within that arrangement, whether it is in the Presidency, or wherever, is going to be implemented. That is what it is. That is the answer. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr N SINGH

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 6 November 2013 Take: 449

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

Mr N SINGH: Mr President, I think we also as the IFP welcome the announcement of these cost-cutting measures and we welcome the fact that it was approved by Cabinet. However, we are concerned about its implementation. The implementation of these cost-cutting measures must not be lost in bureaucracy and red tape.

We did not get an answer just now regarding the timeframe. We are particularly concerned about what is happening at local government level, because one gets many towns which are almost bankrupt and yet the mayors drive fancy 4x4 cars worth millions of rands. This is an area that has to be attended to urgently and immediately. Therefore, we would urge that these measures be put in place sooner rather than later so that we can stop this profligate spending by some of these mayors.

Added to that, we are informed that in one municipality in KwaZulu-Natal, the mayor has a team of 16 armed bodyguards and I do not think anybody in the front row there, with due respect, has that many bodyguards. Therefore, putting a stop to profligate spending also needs to permeate right down to that level of how many bodyguards these mayors drive around with? I would like your comment on that, Mr President. Thank you. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, firstly, as I have answered, we are implementing these measures. So, you don't have to worry. We are implementing them, as I have indicated, because we have taken a decision very conscious of what we are doing in terms of cost-cutting. Therefore, have no worries.

With regard to the mayor that I don't know, the one who has 16 bodyguards, well, I can't answer that question, because I don't know why that is so. I don't know why. I do not know the circumstances, who this mayor is and in which municipal area he is. You know that there are councillors who have been killed. So, one does not know the level of the threat. I don't know. That is why I am saying I cannot answer the question. In some cases, mayors might need more bodyguards than the Ministers as a result of the threat, particularly in areas where people have been killed. I think that is why I am saying I cannot venture to answer that one, because I don't know the circumstances. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 16:34.

Nb/Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE


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