Hansard: NCOP: Plenary; Questions for Oral Reply; Cluster 3: Governance
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 12 Sep 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,07 Oct 2013,"Take 19 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-19] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
START OF DAY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
12 SEPTEMBER 2013
PAGE: 1
THURSDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_______________
The Council met at 14:03.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms T C Memela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
START OF DAY
NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I have been informed by the Whippery that they have agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice except the motion on the Order Paper. We now come to the motion on the Order Paper as printed in the name of the Chief Whip.
SUSPENSION OF RULE 247(1)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers reports of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I would like to draw to your attention that the Minister for Women, Children and People with Disabilities has apologised as she won't be coming today. Those questions will have to be answered in writing. Accepted? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
Cluster 3: Governance
Question 104:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon member for his question, which is both relevant and timely.
As hon members know, the next local government elections will be held in 2016, after national and provincial elections in 2014. All changes in municipal boundaries need to be finalised prior to the national and provincial elections so that the national voters' roll can be segmented according to confirmed and final municipal boundaries.
Therefore, all the municipal boundaries must be completed at the beginning of 2013 whereafter the Municipal Demarcation Board, MDB, will delimit wards for the 2016 local elections. The Municipal Demarcation Board conducts its work in terms of the Constitution, the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. Section 155 (3)(b) of our Constitution requires national legislation to establish criteria and procedures for the determination of municipal boundaries by an independent authority. The Constitution further provides that such legislation must then take into account the need to provide municipal services in an equitable and sustainable manner.
Furthermore, section 157(4)(a) of the Constitution states that the delimitation of wards must be done by an independent authority, acting in accordance with the procedures and criteria prescribed by national legislation. The Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act guides the MDB in determining municipal boundaries whilst the delimitation of wards for local elections and capacity assessments of municipalities to perform their functions are covered by the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.
The board is at the final stage of redetermining the municipal boundaries, which include possible minor and technical adjustments, consolidation and medium-scale boundary changes and large-scale amalgamation of two or more municipalities as well as recategorisation of certain municipalities.
The pending redetermination of 157 municipal boundaries was published in the relevant provincial gazettes, inviting stakeholders and the public to submit objections within 30 days. The closing date for objections is 16 September. Thereafter the board will consider objections submitted from stakeholders in terms of section 21 of the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act.
The board will consider all objections received during the objection period and will then either confirm, vary or withdraw its determination. The board's final decision and redemarcation process is scheduled to be gazetted, in terms of section 21(5) of the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, by 30 September. The hon member will therefore appreciate that the MDB has not finalised the redetermination and/or merging of the Midvaal and Emfuleni municipalities.
Hon member, any person, including the Minister, may request the board to provide reasons for its decisions in terms of section 21 of the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act. Therefore, hon member, I hope that you accept the somewhat long albeit polite, comprehensive and hopefully educative way of saying that the answer to your question is no. I thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, thank you for the reply. Violent protests against similar proposed mergers have occurred, for instance in Sasolburg, Zamdela township. How does the Minister plan to prevent the fresh waves of violent protest and damages? Should this type of proposed merger between Midvaal and Emfuleni not be withdrawn? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, can you just step down for a second?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: With due respect to the hon member, the Deputy Minister is not the Minister of strikes and protests, so he will not be able to answer that question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Accepted?
Mr W F FABER: Definitely not, hon Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Well, unfortunately, I have to rule you out. Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. My question to the Deputy Minister in connection with this merger - I heard what you were saying about the two municipalities – is: Are you sure that the process of the demarcation board to consult with the two different areas or communities in connection with this merger was followed? Did they go to the different communities, explain to them the boundaries and so on, and what actually is on the paper? Are you sure that they followed the process?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Again, Chairperson, the Municipal Demarcation Board is an independent body that will report to the Minister. The Minister cannot answer that question because that is an independent body. It's not done by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there a further question?
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, can I address you?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Yes, hon member.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, I am not asking what the demarcation board is actually coming to report on. I am asking whether the Minister has the information that the demarcation board went to those communities. It is not about them. It is about what is actually happening in the area of the jurisdiction of the Minister.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon De Villiers, you have changed your question.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: No, I didn't change it.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, at the risk of disobeying your ruling, let me touch upon both of the questions that have been asked. I think the first question that we need to ask ourselves is what exactly the question was. The question here was: Is the Minister intending to ask the Municipal Demarcation Board, at this stage, to submit a report on a particular recommendation that it has made, i.e., the merger of Midvaal and Emfuleni?
I think what we are saying is, in terms of the Constitution and the law, the Municipal Demarcation Board is an independent entity. It does its work independently of the executive. When it makes recommendations, in terms of the law, there is provision for objections. We are still within that objection period.
In fact, the objection period closes on 16 September. So, any community or individual that has any problem with any recommendation that has been made by the board still has until 16 September to lodge an objection. The board is then obliged, in terms of the law, to consider those objections and, based on those objections, to either confirm its recommendations, to vary them or to come up with a new recommendation. All of the questions regarding the potential of protests, the question of consultation, I think, at this stage, are a little bit premature.
Let us allow the process, as it is spelt out in the Constitution and in the law, to take its course. Once the process is complete and the board announces its findings, as I indicated, it will be open to anyone, including any member of this House, to approach the board to ask for reasons for its decisions. I am sure that if the members are not satisfied with those reasons, then the relevant recourse would be open to them. I think, at this stage, it will be premature to be asking, especially the executive, to be acting as a spokesperson for an independent body such as the Demarcation Board. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that the merger between the Midvaal and the other municipality, Emfuleni, would not shrink the number of councillors and that it could ... [Interjections.]... impact upon service delivery.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Van Lingen, let's not repeat questions by playing around with words. It's one and the same topic, and the Deputy Minister has just answered. Thank you very much; take your seat. [Interjections.]
I heard that. Hon Van Lingen, I heard your remark and please be careful. [Interjections.] No, I am not going to argue with you. Thank you very much.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I just want to ask a follow-up question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Time for follow-up questions is over, thank you. We are limited with time. We now come to the second question. [Interjections.] With due respect, hon member Sinclair, can you take your seat, please.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, on a point of order: In terms of the Rules, for each question, one is allowed four supplementary...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP(Ms T C Memela): But the time is over for follow-up questions. Thank you very much.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, with due respect, I don't think there is a time allocation for follow-up questions.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Sinclair, I've actually asked you to behave before. This time - you know the Rules - I am not going to argue with you. And if you feel ...
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, it is because I know the Rules that I raise the issue.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Sinclair, if you feel you can't take this, do me a favour: Leave the Chamber, immediately! [Interjections.] No, I'm not going to argue with you. The final word is that if you are not going to abide by the policies of this room, you are able to walk out.
QUESTION 105 - The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,07 Oct 2013,"Take 20 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
QUESTION
QUESTION 104
Question 105:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the question asked is whether, in cases where criminal charges of fraud, supply chain management irregularities, tender-rigging and public representatives benefiting from municipal tenders have been laid against the officials of, one,his department; two, the provincial or, three, the local government, such officials are suspended (a) without pay or (b) with full pay until the cases against them have been resolved; if not what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?
The reply to that is that, with regard to the department, there are no cases where criminal charges have been preferred against officials of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. With regard to provincial and local levels of government, we have embarked on a process to gather information. I think the hon member would appreciate that that is quite an extensive endeavour. We hope that once that information has been reported to us, we could come back to the House and give a more elaborate reply. Thank you very much.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I am delighted to hear the Deputy Minister's response. In the case of a specific municipality in my constituency, we have a situation where criminal charges were laid against the municipal manager and one of the directors. I have full understanding for the fact that you cannot charge anybody or make him or her guilty if the proper legal process has not being followed. However, in this particular case, the investigation is being hampered, and state witnesses could be intimidated in the situation. The question is: Does the Minister support suspension in such a case until the case has been resolved? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think it would both be unfair towards me and unfair of me to comment upon a specific matter, the full details of which I am not apprised. However, I think general government policy is clear that we are committed to the fight against crime and corruption. In our departments, we maintain a zero-tolerance approach towards fraud and corruption. Certainly, in a case where the ongoing presence of someone in a position might either hamper an investigation, both an internal disciplinary investigation as well as a criminal prosecution or where the continued presence of the person in a position could lead to further damage being done, then, certainly, taking all of those factors into account, suspension might be warranted. However, I am sorry; I do not think it would be possible for me to take the matter further based on the information that the member has provided.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for his view on the previous question. Deputy Minister, I quite agree with you, and I will furnish you with the necessary situation. Regarding the suspension of the officials in Madibeng in the North West and your recommendation on 27 August 2013 about the missing R21 million, by when do you think the ministerial report will be presented in full at the municipality? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I'm quite sure that the hon member would be in full agreement with me if I suggest that that is not a follow-up question even by the most generous of standards. I think it is certainly something on which I would be more than happy to engage with the member on a one-to-one basis, but I think in no way is that a follow up to the question that is being posed. Thank you.
QUESTION 120
QUESTION 105
Question 120:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I'm being technologically advanced. It comes with its own challenges!
The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs established the Local Government Inspectorate unit in 2010 to intensify the fight against corruption. The establishment of the inspectorate was not in line with the mandate of the department, which does not have investigative powers. Therefore, it was decided in 2012 to rename the unit the Anticorruption Unit. The unit has since engaged the law enforcement agencies, in particular the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation – DPCI, or the Hawks – and the Special Investigating Unit, the SIU, also known as the Cobras, to establish a close working relationship focusing specifically on the investigation of corruption in municipalities.
Flowing out of this agreement, the law enforcement agencies, the Hawks in particular, have established provincial teams to focus specifically on allegations that are referred by the department. This working relationship allows the department to play a co-ordinating role in gathering information that provides leads and ensures that efforts by the law enforcement agencies are properly directed to hotspot municipalities. The involvement of these agencies is making a huge impact in dealing with corruption. It also allows the department to focus on providing support to municipalities in developing anticorruption measures and to monitor and analyse trends for the purpose of introducing the required interventions.
The joint efforts between the investigating units and department have improved the co-ordination of investigations and the facilitation role, by creating an enabling environment in which the law enforcement agencies are able to investigate allegations of corruption promptly. By the end of May 2013, there were 745 allegations of corruption involving government officials and members of the public being investigated in municipalities throughout the country, and 403 arrests were made. I thank you.
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Deputy Chairperson, we welcome the initiative by the Minister. My follow-up question is whether, in the light of this agreement, you will consider a thorough review and firming up of internal anticorruption control mechanisms, such as policies and staff codes of conduct in all municipalities, to ensure that we close all loopholes for corrupt practices and incidents. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon member for the follow-up question. I can only say that we would agree and that we are working on a continuous basis, both as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in very close co-operation with other departments in the Governance and Administration Cluster and, in particular, the Department of Public Service and Administration as well as departments within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster to firm up the ability of municipalities to investigate fraud and corruption but also to put in place systemic measures against corruption. Those would include things like putting in place minimum standards for especially senior officials in local government. It would include prohibitions against officials doing business with government departments and other similar measures. I can only say that we agree with the hon member. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I'm delighted to hear the progress that has been made with the charges and the arrests. We really have to commend the department on that. What is of concern is the fact that when a situation gets hot within a municipality, one often finds that the officials resign when the investigation gets hot. Do we actually follow up on a person who has resigned, and do we carry on with the criminal investigation against those people? Also, is that part of the 403 arrests, or do they then stay within the system by just moving on to the next municipality? Thank you, Madam.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think the hon member asks a very important question because, indeed, there are instances both at national, provincial and local level where public servants who are suspected of wrongdoing resign rather than face internal disciplinary hearings. In this way, they also seek to evade criminal prosecution. Often times, those same public servants reappear in either another department at the same level of government or they migrate to a different level. Measures have been considered by Cabinet and will hopefully be promulgated soon which will close the loopholes there. This would make provision for instances of public servants who have been charged disciplinarily, whether they undergo a full process or not, to be reported at the appropriate level, for a register to be kept, and for them to be declared ineligible for re-employment within the Public Service. So, we hope through those and other measures to close the loophole that the hon member has referred to. Thank you.
QUESTION 121
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,18 Sep 2013,"Take 21 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
QUESTION 120"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-21] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
Question 121:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, the answer to the question is yes, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, established in terms of a presidential proclamation in 2012 that was gazetted in May 2013, has been providing support to municipalities since its establishment.
The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent's support to municipalities aims to ensure that municipalities develop new infrastructure at a faster pace, whilst adhering to the relevant standards for such infrastructure, and to enable them to provide operations and maintenance of existing infrastructure to ensure continuity of service provision.
The second major focus of the Misa support aims at assisting municipalities to build their internal technical capacity to progressively strengthen their capacity for sustainable infrastructure and service provision in the long-term.
The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent is currently providing technical capacity support to 107 municipalities throughout the country, through a total of 77 technical experts, especially in engineering and planning. The scientists support these municipalities. This list includes 24 district municipalities identified by Cabinet for priority support towards addressing the extremely high levels of backlogs on household access to basic services.
Further support is being provided through 25 contracted professional service providers to address specific challenges in relation to infrastructure provision identified during the assessment process. A list of these municipalities is included in the reply. It's a fairly long list, and I think we will provide it to the hon member and to the Council.
The main focus of the support is on strengthening project management units; planning for bulk water supply; planning for and construction of water schemes; exploration and development of boreholes for water extraction; maintenance and refurbishment of water purification works and electricity distribution infrastructure; revamping ageing infrastructure, land use management systems; asset management support, complaints management systems and infrastructure master plans development.
Most of the municipalities supported and have shown an improvement in project implementation, tremendous improvement with respect to spending of allocated conditional grants - ,for example, the municipal infrastructure funds - strong focus on infrastructure maintenance, refurbishment and improved planning, amongst other positive results. I thank you.
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Deputy Chairperson, I am satisfied. Thank you.
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, this Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent only spent 41,6% of its allocated budget last year. Therefore, do you think it can be tasked with ensuring professional support to municipalities if it fails to effectively spend money on ensuring that its services are properly delivered to those who need them most? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think the hon member would have heard me saying that this is an institution that is barely a year old, and its effects are already starting to be felt amongst municipalities. We are confident that it is playing a very constructive role, as the reply indicated. That is not to say that it cannot be improved, and we are certainly working very hard with the management of Misa to make sure that it does even better what it is already doing well. Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Deputy Chairperson, usually, we find that in these small municipalities they don't have the staff capacity to deliver on the problems in the municipality. Can you tell this Council if there are some programmes in place to capacitate those municipalities when this support agent is finished with its work and withdraws from that municipality? Will the staff of that municipality be able to carry on with their future work? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think the reply made abundantly clear that, in fact, the aim of Misa is not only to move into a municipality to do those things itself, but to develop the local capacity in municipalities to carry on that work on a sustainable basis. That is really the object of the exercise. Thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, there was a programme run by the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, which assisted municipalities with their technical skills. Is there a relationship between the activities of Misa and the activities of the DBSA?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think the hon member is referring to the Siyenza Manje programme of the DBSA. Certainly, the work of Misa builds upon and takes further the work that has been done and, in some instances, continues to be done by DBSA. Thank you.
Question 122
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,18 Sep 2013,"Take 22 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main", Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-22] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
QUESTION 121
Question 122:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the reply is that the Ministerial Demarcation Task Team has consulted the Gauteng, Limpopo, Free State and Eastern Cape provinces respectively to solicit inputs from community members on the impact of the demarcation process.
Further consultation meetings were held with the offices of the Surveyor-General and the Auditor-General, Statistics SA and the Municipal Demarcation Board, the National Planning Commission and the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration in the Presidency. The task team's work has reached a very advanced stage. They have produced an initial draft of their report.
However, they have indicated to the Minister that they would require until the end of October to complete that report, to hand it over to the Minister to consider and take forward. So, yes, the task team has made progress in its work.
Secondly, with regard to demarcation-related matters that are still pending and unresolved, we were not 100% sure what matters the member was referring to. If the member was referring to the ongoing work of the Municipal Demarcation Board, then we believe that we have answered that question when we replied to Question 104 regarding Mid-Vaal and Emfuleni when we indicated the status of the - I think it is 157 - proposals that have been made by the demarcation board, and the processes that will lead to the finalisation of those. Thanks.
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Minister, it is not a follow-up question but a recommendation. There is ongoing protest in relation to demarcation, particularly in ward areas that are complaining of being on the farms, in the cities, in the country. If that could be taken on board by this task team, and then later engaged on so that we have progress on it. Thank you.
QUESTION 123
QUESTION 122
Question 123:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon members, and the Chief Whip of the NCOP, we thank you for your very relevant and important question. Your question is particularly relevant given the role of the NCOP as a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces and also local government. Hon member, I would like to deal with your question in two parts: Firstly, debt owed by municipalities to state entities and, secondly, debt owed by government departments and state entities to municipalities.
With regard to the first part, the quantification of intergovernmental debt between municipalities and state entities is performed by National Treasury on an ongoing basis, in terms of sections 41 and 71 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. It is government policy that all government departments, municipalities and entities are expected to pay for services rendered to them within a period of 30 days.
In terms of section 41 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, National Treasury must monitor payments made by municipalities and municipal entities for bulk resources such as water and electricity. In order for National Treasury to discharge this mandate, each organ of state providing such bulk resources to a municipality must, within 15 days after the end of each month, furnish the National Treasury with written statements setting out for each municipality the following information: Firstly, the amount to be paid by the municipality or municipal entity for such bulk resources for that month, and for the financial year up to the end of that month.
The other part of the question is on the arrears owing and the age profile of such arrears and any actions taken by the organ of state to cover arrears. Based on the information obtained from these reports, we can indicate to this House that the situation with regard to electricity is as follows: As at June 2013, the bulk sale of electricity to all municipalities amounted to R7,375 billion. The current debt owed by municipalities to Eskom at the end of June was approximately R7,177 billion. This is an indication that municipalities are servicing their debt to Eskom within the required timeframe. Remember that current debt is debt that is due but not yet in arrears.
The situation with regard to water is as follows: At the end of June 2013, the bulk sale of water to municipalities by water boards amounted to R2,6 billion. The current debt owed by municipalities to water boards amounted to approximately R1,9 billion, indicating that municipalities were in arrears to the amount of R700 million on a 30-day and beyond basis. Whilst all entities that supply or render a particular service are expected to implement their credit control measures, and where necessary disconnect the supply, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs encourages all parties to engage in constructive dialogue aimed at resolving disputes concerning debt owed. In this regard the Minister has discussed this matter with his Cabinet colleagues and the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and Ministers and Members of Executive Council, Minmec meeting.
With regard to the second part of the question on the debt owed by government departments and state entities to municipalities, section 71(7) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act provides that provincial treasuries compile quarterly reports reflecting the state each municipality and municipal entity's budget, including levels of debt owed to them.
According to the section 71 report published in August of 2013, government's debt amounted to R4,2 billion or 4,9%, less than 5% of the total of R86,9 billion debt owed to municipalities. Of this, R606 million is current debt, and R3,2 billion has been owed for over 90 days.
In many instances, government departments dispute the amounts that they are billed for by municipalities and, for this reason, the department has encouraged the formation of provincial debt management steering committees to resolve disputed accounts. This has been proved to be useful as reflected by the fact that levels of current debt stand at approximately R600 million. The department also encourages the use of other intergovernmental relations structures such as the Cogta and Minmec, where this question of intergovernmental debt is a standing agenda item. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, the question has almost been answered, but there was one part that I didn't get from the Deputy Minister's answer - whether there are any consequences for failure to pay within 30 days.
Chairperson, as a comment, it is also clear that amongst the three spheres of government each owes the other some moneyCan there be some resolution on that as well?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I actually did touch upon that, but maybe I touched upon it a little lightly and diplomatically. I did say that it is incumbent upon all of these entities to implement credit control measures and, to implement those credit control measures, would mean ultimately that, if there is no resolution, they would discontinue services.
Of course, as government we would take all measures at our disposal to avoid that, because the people that would suffer at the end of the day are not the government entities but the people who use those services. It is for that reason that we encourage the different entities to engage in dialogues with each other and to resolve those matters.
Yes, there are consequences. There are consequences for this continuation and there is also the consequence of political pressure for not complying with the 30-day rule. It's something that our President in particular rarely misses an opportunity to pronounce himself on, especially with regard to the payment of small and medium enterprises by government agencies, but also the payment by government generally. Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, my question to the Deputy Minister is: What amount does the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs owe to municipalities, over 30 days and also more? What amount? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, that's - how shall we say - a very good and very relevant question but I would beg your indulgence to come back to the House on that. I would sincerely hope that we will be able to choose one of the letters of the NCOP, maybe the third one. I hope so. Thanks. [Laughter.]
Mr T E CHAANE: Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, I just want to understand this because, in terms of the figures that you provide, a big chunk - almost R82 billion - is owed to municipalities by private citizens and business. Now, my question is whether or not there is any research that would enable us, in future, to know how much of that accounts for indigent people and how much of that accounts for people who are able to pay, and whether the department has any plans to address that particular challenge. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I actually deliberately omitted to deal with that matter because the question focused specifically on intergovernmental debt. Out of the amount of R86,9 billion that is owed to municipalities, as I indicated, it is less than 5% that is owed by government or state entities.
The rest of that debt is made up of either private individuals or businesses. We are not satisfied with the aggregate data that we have on that question at the moment and, therefore, we have indicated that we want the relevant departments, working together with the municipalities, to refine and disaggregate that data so that we can see exactly, within that global figure, who is owing what so that we can assist municipalities to develop better and more effective strategies to deal with that matter. Thank you very much.
Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Deputy Chairperson and Deputy Minister, intergovernmental debt is a manifestation of administrative failures in various spheres of government such as lack of skills, and poor financial controls and financial management systems as well as capacity. I just want to know whether there are processes in place to improve the financial management capacity of various government departments and municipalities to ensure that we put an end to intergovernmental debt and, secondly, whether the government is considering setting up a timeframe for the settlement of intergovernmental debt. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I welcome the hon member's question. I think, certainly, when he talks about the need to improve administrative systems and capacity at all levels of government, no one -certainly not us - will disagree with him. However, I think the question of intergovernmental debt has many dimensions that go beyond that.
So, certainly, we do have programmes in place to support municipalities to increase capacity to improve systems, but when it comes to intergovernmental debt, I think there are other dimensions, and that is the reason why the question of intergovernmental debt is a standing item on the agenda of the Cogta Minmec. It is a matter that we discuss every time when we meet with the MECs, and that Minmec includes organised local government in the form of the SA Local Government Association, Salga.
I don't think it will be proper for me in this House to reveal how some of the local governments deal with other levels of government in terms of making sure that they pay, but it is quite a robust approach by some of them. We do discuss those matters in a very co-operative and focused manner. Also the creation of the provincial debt steering committee has really enabled us, in many provinces, to bring down those debt levels quite substantially simply by the different departments and the different spheres of government talking to each other and resolving disputes around monies owed. Thanks.
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, a lot of the debt, as we heard, is money that is owed by municipalities to various water boards and I think the figure alluded to is something like R2,6 billion.
Now, this often leads to disputes, which drag on for months and , in certain municipalities, up to 50% of the water is lost through aging infrastructure. This leads to big disputes as to what that municipality actually owes. They say, no, they don't owe so much to the water board because that is not their total consumption.
What plans does your department have, Deputy Minister, to ensure that aging and leaking infrastructure is replaced on a systematic basis, seeing that water is such a scarce resource in this country? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think firstly, the whole question of water infrastructure is a key element of the Outcome 9 delivery agreement, which is headed by Cogta, and involves departments such as Human Settlements and Water Affairs. In that context, the relevant departments are working to both expand water infrastructure and to maintain existing infrastructure. Also, as I indicated in Question 121, from Cogta's point of view, we have put in place the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent. A big part of its work revolves exactly around different aspects of water infrastructure. Thank you.
QUESTION 102 – Minister for the Public Service and Administration...
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QUESTION 123
Question 102:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson and members of the NCOP, good afternoon. Deputy Chairperson, with regard to the question from hon Mokgobi from Limpopo, we have, in the new draft Bill which we hope to pass through Parliament and that the NCOP will endorse - called the Public Administration Management Bill, included a complete ban on public servants doing business with the state. I want to read to you, for this purpose, the clause that we had initially put into the law because it will deal with the follow-up of this particular question:
For the purpose of this Act, family member means a person's spouse, a child, a parent, a brother or sister whether such relationship results from birth or adoption.
We were informed that this would be unconstitutional. Therefore, as it stands now, our law only covers the public servant himself. We are unable to cover any other aspect of his life, but we have instruments in place to ensure that we are able to cover any loopholes that may ensue from this.
The hon member continues to want to find out what we are doing to ensure that any other instruments that are used to hide the investment of members are made clear. In the Public Service Act, members are required to declare their interests, whether these are in investment or unit trusts or such like structures. Similarly, in the Public Administration Act, we will be requiring that this declaration be made. Further than that, should any member be part of a tender oversight procedure, we would want to make sure that before they are part of the structure, they do declare if any members of their family, friends or such like are involved in the processes that they are presiding over.
We will have established, through the law, an anticorruption bureau which will co-operate with other state law enforcement institutions such as the SA Revenue Service, Sars; the Hawks; the Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC; and the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, which will allow us some access into the lifestyle of the individuals that we have in the Public Service. This will make it impossible, we think, in the end for anybody to hide any assets or any interest they may have with businesses that are doing business with the state.
It is envisaged that, through this Act, we will also provide supplementary support to the work that is done by Treasury to make sure that the tender processes are simplified, transparent and render better outcomes than they have in the past. The Public Administration Management Bill will be coming before you and this is a very important item that will be in the Public Administration Management Bill. Thank you.
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I am satisfied.
Mr D A WORTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, to the Minister, will this proposed Public Administration Management Bill affect the validity of any contracts that have been entered into with businesses at the time of this Bill being passed, thereby enabling the state possibly to recover and retrieve money that has been given to contracts awarded to family members or that are not in accordance with the public interest?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we will be putting in place transitional arrangements to cover this because the law is now explicit that public servants may not do business with the state. It never was the intention that they should business, but it never was part of our laws. So, it is not going to be possible for us to penalise anything that might have happened before the law was put in place.
However, what we will be doing is scrutinising whether, in the disclosures that the members are required to fill in, they did declare that they had an interest in particular businesses. Should we discover that they did not declare, it will be the responsibility of the anticorruption bureau to investigate. Yes, we do intend to recover assets but we will be working closely in co-operation with other law enforcement agencies which have the opportunity and the mandate to recover. We do not have that mandate in the law.
QUESTION 125
QUESTION 102
Question 125:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: The question was asked by hon Mofokeng from the Free State who wants to know what recommendations my department is dealing with that emanate from the performance audit of the Auditor-General; what enforcement and appropriate actions the departments are required to fulfil; what happens to them should they fail to comply, and whether or not we have actually developed and implemented any measures or strategies in this regard.
Over the years the Auditor-General has indeed identified a number of loopholes within our laws and the way that we operate. The Public Service Commission itself has identified these. We have arranged service level agreements between ourselves and these entities so that we can put in place the necessary arrangements to assist these institutions to help departments ensure that they do comply. Happily, we have with us here the Minister from the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME, with whom I share this responsibility and, when we are not stepping on each other's toes, we are assisting each other in ensuring that, perhaps by the end of this year, we will have put in place all the necessary steps and measures to ensure that the reports are adhered to.
We have had a number of engagements with the Auditor-General's office, as I have indicated, and we are putting in place the necessary guidelines and assistance to ensure that where, in fact, this arises from maladministration, we are able to deal with the matter.
In response to the question on what happens to the departments that have failed to comply, so far - until we have the necessary instruments in place - we have not taken any action against any departments that failed to comply with this. Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, my question to the hon Minister is in connection with her response or answer that, by the end of this year, hopefully, all measures will be in place to see to it that the different municipalities and departments will comply. Can you tell us, after the completion of that, when - I think that will be maybe next year - will you provide Parliament and the NCOP with the report on that situation?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: In terms of the Public Administration Management Bill, which we will be bringing to the House here, we have made provision for what is called the Office of Standards and Compliance. It is this Office of Standards and Compliance whose responsibility will be to ensure that departments and provinces do comply with relevant legislation and regulation.
However, as I have indicated, some of the work that we are doing is shared between ourselves and the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, DPME and, when we have completed our work, which we have started and we have done quite extensive work over a number of provinces, it will be possible for us to align our systems and regulatory mechanisms. The reason why we are saying it will be complete by the end of the year because we are quite advanced in the work that we are doing. So, I am being very optimistic that, perhaps by the end of this year, those measures will be in place, and those will be the regulatory measures that will be attended to in the Public Administration Management Bill.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, may I ask the Minister something? There are high levels of noncompliance. According to the Management Performance Assessment Tool, MPAT, that was released yesterday, 80% of national government departments were noncompliant in terms of service delivery improvement requirements, and 74% were noncompliant with the Department of Public Service and Administration's directive that the organisational structures reflect funded posts only. What is the Minister's strategy to deal with these gross levels of noncompliance to the regulations in Public Service? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: So far, the only recourse we have is to bring this to the attention of the Cabinet and relevant departments when they are noncompliant with the regulations that are set out. We have not done anything beyond that, but, with the establishment of the Office of Standards and Compliance, we are hoping, first of all, to assist these departments to be compliant. Should we find that they resist being compliant, then we will take the necessary steps as required and afforded us by the law to ensure that they do comply. But, at the moment, our first step is to make sure that we assist them to be compliant through the Office of Standards and Compliance. Thank you.
QUESTION 127
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QUESTION 125
Question 127:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, as I have indicated, we are working on measures to ensure that the work done by the Auditor-General and the Public Service Commission is in compliance with recommendations, and some of the problems that they are encountering. Normally the work that is done by the Auditor-General is given to the executive authority responsible for taking the necessary measures.
We have had discussions with the Auditor-General and he feels that most of the problems that he is experiencing come from the fact that our administrative infrastructure is not as good as it should be. That is why we are trying to strengthen what we are doing now in order to create the necessary administrative support for all our spheres of government. The primary responsibility, therefore, is with the executive authority. What we are doing is giving support in order to ensure that the administration within every sphere of government and every department is in line with what is required so that they are able to deal with these matters.
The experience we have is that most Chapter 9 and 10 institutions report directly to Parliament and perhaps to the NCOP, because we intended to protect their independence in the Constitution. Reporting mechanisms are not directly linked to us; they are direct only when they give a report. We are hoping that, as all of us look into this matter, we will find a way in which there could be direct interaction between these institutions and the executive authorities so that we can enhance our delivery and some of the issues that they want to point out to us.
In relation to the Public Protector, we have no direct relationship with her, either by law or in any other way, except that when she does have problems of a nature that she thinks might affect us, she does bring such a matter to our attention.
Through our anticorruption strategies and the establishment of the school of government, we hope that we can create a public administration that is efficient and adheres to certain norms and standards as laid out in the Constitution.
In relation to the issue of how we are managing corruption-related cases, the Bill - as I indicated - provides a very comprehensive response to this. I listened to the Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance indicating how they are dealing with issues of anticorruption at local government level and I wanted to write him a note saying that, by the time the Bill is passed, we will be on hand to assist him. We will be able to assist all layers of government with the capacity that we have to ensure that all cases of corruption within public administration are dealt with expeditiously.
One of the members in this House did indicate their concern around the fact that public servants find it very easy to move from one sphere of government to another. As soon as they have been discovered and their disciplinary cases are under way, they jump to the next department or the next level of governance. Within the Public Administration Management Bill, and within the powers of the Anti-Corruption Bureau, we will have a database where all cases of corruption and misconduct will be recorded and we will further be able to trace such people before they are employed anywhere else.
We are revamping our employment practices to ensure that before anybody is employed, it is the responsibility of the relevant authority to check if that person's record is clean and if they have no previous cases against them, especially around corruption and any other misconduct-related case. Thank you.
Mr A G MATILA: Deputy Chairperson, there is no follow-up question; we are satisfied. We will be waiting for this particular Bill because we think that it will go a long way to making sure that we deal with the necessary problems that we find in local government and in government in general. There are serious problems in government. For instance, just recently we returned from interventions in Mpumalanga and in North West where there are serious challenges around corruption, maladministration and all those issues. We hope this particular Bill is going to assist us greatly. Thank you.
Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, I want to ask for how long people will be listed in the database? Will they be removed later after a certain period of time or will they be listed in it forever? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I am very glad to hear that all of us here await the Bill. I have a special request, though I know it is very unparliamentarily. I await the support from the House for the Bill. [Laughter.] This is a Bill that has been in the pipeline for the last 11 to 12 years, and it promises to solve most of the administrative problems that we have. We have put solutions to all problems in the Bill, and we hope that, by the time the Bill comes into effect, we will be able to solve all the problems found by the hon member in the provinces.
As to how long members will be on the database,they will be on the database for as long as they are employed by the Public Service. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we all agree with the Minister; we are looking forward to this new Bill.
According to the norms and standards laid out that the Minister talked about and the noncompliance that she referred to, including the administrative infrastructure that is not good enough as has been found by herself and the Auditor-General and the administrative support that is going to be given, it is a little bit of a concern because, administrative support, in my mind, is only good enough if skills are being transferred. However, the question remains: Is non-compliance caused by the lack of skills and qualifications in the various departments? If so, what is the Minister going to do about it? We cannot just continue giving support. We must start following up and demanding that appointments be made for the correct qualifications and for the correct positions. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chairperson, the Bill answers most of these problems. The member indicates that we cannot continuously be supporting administrative weaknesses because we have a shortage of skills. That is the truth. What the Bill seeks to do is allow the state to use the resources that we have, which is the human resources, and transfer them to where they are needed most. For instance, if we find that the municipal manager at Empangeni is not coping because he does not have the necessary skills, it will be possible for us to take the Director-General in the Presidency – I thought I will get a swipe from the Minister ... [Laughter.] It will be possible for us to take a competent Director-General, once he is done with his work, and put him in that position so that we can share the skills. A great deal of the problems we have are because we do not have the requisite skills to deal with what we are required to do, especially at local government level. That is why now we want to make sure that we have this moveable resource called human beings and human capacity. Sorry, Deputy Chairperson, the second question was...?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): It has all been answered.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chairperson, the Bill will be the answer to all our problems. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, is it envisaged that this new Bill will then lead to the establishment of one Public Service?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: We have moved on from what the hon member is talking about, a single Public Service Bill. What we are doing now is adhering to the Constitution which requires that we have uniform standards, uniform values, and uniform principles across all spheres of government. This is a central principle that brings about the Bill that we have. Out of this, we are hoping that it will be possible for us to have the kind of capacity that we can move across all spheres of government, depending on where there is as weakness that we would like to plug.
We are very cognisant of the sensitivity of all three spheres of government in respect of their own particular powers and we have no intention of interfering with the powers that the provinces or local governments have. So, in the sense you are talking about, no. It will provide us with an efficient instrument that will serve the administration of this country under one Constitution which requires that it has all of these elements outlined in section 10.
If I may take the opportunity, the matter that was raised by the member was: What are we doing about the qualifications because we cannot continuously support our people who do not have the requisite skills to do what they are required to do? We have put out a regulatory framework of what qualifications will be required at what level. This framework is very clear and has been sent out to all the provinces and to all departments. However, over and above that, we are establishing a school of government which will be compulsory for all of us to attend in order to ensure that we have a public service that is skilled, efficient and has the necessary ethos of the Public Service. Thank you.
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mrs T C Memela): Minister, can we go to the next question?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I will have sung for my supper! Chairperson ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mrs T C Memela): Question 127.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Question 128?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mrs T C Memela): Question 127. You were answering 126. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hmm! [Interjections.] My apologies, Chairperson. I answered Question 127 instead of Question 126.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mrs T C Memela): Oh.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Will you allow me to answer Question 126 now?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Matila, was your question answered? [Interjections.] Yes. Very well. [Interjections.] Both of them. All right. Can we go to Question 128?
Question 128
QUESTION 127
Question 128:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you so much, Chairperson. I really appreciate that.
I would like to confirm that we are indeed making progress in the rationalising of our organisational structures right across the two spheres of government at the moment. Currently, we are finalising a generic, functional structure for certain departments, namely, Education, Social Development, and the Offices of Premiers. We are also hoping that perhaps we can go to Public Works, Roads, and Transport.
These structures are developed as part of the role of the Department of the Public Service and Administration, DPSA, to set norms and standards pertaining to organisational structures. The aim is to ensure a greater degree of consistency in the design of the organisational structures and alignment in the provinces, ensuring that we do not have too much duplication within the mandates that are spread across either the departments or the layers of government. Such generic structures are developed under the leadership of the DPSA and the relevant line-function department that we are dealing with. So, we develop them with the line-function department that we are working on.
The provincial departments of such sectors are formally involved also, and provide input during the developmental phases of such, and they sign off on these structures. When these structures are replaced, the Office of Standards and Compliance follows its normal route to ensure that we are actually responding to what has been requested of us. Normally, these structures also serve in Minmecs, and after adoption of these structures, the relevant sector departments are required to align these with other functions within the department.
Consultations are under way on changes and these are delivered almost as promptly as it is possible for us to do this. Again, the Public Administration Management Bill attends to this matter. Thank you.
Mr B NESI: Chairperson, I think the answer is very clear, and I am satisfied. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister, I would, at the outset, wish to reassure the Minister that any itchiness I might have is not due to a flea infestation – and that was said in jest, Madam. [Interjections.]
However, may I ask the Minister, with regard to the reorganising that she refers to,might this include the rationalisation of departments and the reduction of the number of Ministries?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Minister, fleas ...
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I am disturbed here by my colleagues who are more attracted to the flea infestation than the question. I completely missed the question.
I need to say to the hon member that I did adopt a stray dog once. It did have a flea infestation and it behaved very much like an hon member on the other side, but I have not seen any of those tendencies here, so I would not associate that with any member here at all. [Laughter.] I subsequently adopted the dog. It is called Coco. It is a beautiful dog. It now behaves very well. [Laughter.]
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, because of the issue of whether Questions 126 and 127 had been answered, we lost an opportunity to ask another question, and since we are still on the matter of the Public Service, and the Minister so rightly said that the Bill will address it, I would like to ask ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Van Lingen, are you now taking us back?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: No, I am not. I am just continuing.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Now, is it a follow-up question on the relevant answer?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: However, it has nothing to do with fleas and Coco! [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No, no, no, no.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: The Public Protector, speaking at Trompsburg in the Free State, spoke about an audit of the manner in which government handles dismissal cases. Does the Minister's department support such an audit? If so, what are the failings requiring such an audit from the Public Protector? In other words, will the Minister's new Bill cover something like that and an audit for such a situation? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Van Lingen, is that a new ... it is not a follow-up question. It is not a follow-up question. [Interjections.] Please. I have said it before. Let us try and be very attentive when answers are given so that we do not waste time. Is there any follow-up question? [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, will you answer the next question?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson.
QUESTION 129
QUESTION 128
Question 129:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, the question is from the hon Nesi of the Eastern Cape, and he wants to know, in view of the planned policy initiatives envisaged by my department, what progress has been made.
The first one we have is a Draft Policy on the Creation and Allocation of senior management service, SMS, Posts at provincial administrations. We have revised and reviewed this one. The draft has been completed. It awaits concurrence with Cabinet and thereafter, it will be implemented.
The second one is a Draft Policy on the Uniform Job Grading Policy Framework in the Public Service. This one is under revision as well, and we are hoping to hold this back until we have passed the Bill, because it will have greater relevance thereafter. We have, however, completed the draft of this and we are hoping that we will be able to put it through to Labour so that they have insight into how we are dealing with this matter.
The third is a Draft Directive on Consultations and here we are dealing with a draft revision of the 2006 directives. These have been completed and they will be delivered to Cabinet.
There are quite a number of policies that we are reviewing. Would you allow me, therefore, to hand in my response, because all of these have been covered quite comprehensively in this – unless there are follow-up questions?
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, to the hon Minister, with regard to these planned policy initiatives and changes as envisaged, we would like to know: Was there any opportunity for any public participation or was there any input from public organisations with regard to any of them? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chairperson, we will be having public consultations, especially where it involves the issue of labour, in particular. However, most of these policies are policies that we are revising because we have discovered that certain elements in them need to be revised and reviewed. Otherwise, these are policies that have actually been in existence. They are part and parcel of our own policies, and this is what we are revising.
In relation to developing new policies, these will be part of the Bill, but the ones that I have here are those that we are revising. We are revising that which has already been in existence. We are trying to make sure that where we find that there are gaps or loopholes, we close those gaps and loopholes, and where we are required by law to ensure that there is public participation, we will do so. Otherwise, I think that most of these are requests that come from the House here, from Parliament itself, and that we have identified ourselves as being loopholes. However, we have no specific plan to put them out there for public comment. Thank you.
Mr D B FELDMAN: Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if it is out of line, but there are contract workers in government, as well. Let us take Public Enterprises, and so on, as an example. How will the new Bill affect them? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Like Public Enterprises? Well, out of the Bill, we are creating a common pool of resources for all South Africans. Should we discover, for any reason, that anybody who is employed in a state-owned enterprise might be better utilised as a municipal manager somewhere, we would then request that that person be released to go and serve a particular purpose where they are most useful for the administration of the state. The only caveat is that we are required to ensure that we have the consent of the person who is being transferred to any sphere of government or any other entity. If they consent to being transferred, that would be put in place.
Otherwise, our emphasis is to assist those that are weakest in the administration by taking from those that have excess and those that do not need extra skills in their area. I am glad you mentioned Public Enterprises, because we will be looting from them quite extensively when the Bill is passed. Thank you.
QUESTION 106
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QUESTION 129
Question 106:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): The Minister in the Presidency responsible for National Planning is not in, but we have got the Acting Minister, Mr G Nkwinti, to answer the questions.
The ACTING MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION (Mr G Nkwinti): Hon Chairperson and hon members, good afternoon. With regard to the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, including its revision, responsibility rests with the Minister for Energy. The process of revising the IRP is currently under way and officials of the National Planning Commission secretariat are in discussions with the officials of the Department of Energy on these issues. As noted, the responsibility for the IRP rests with the Minister for Energy who would be best placed to advise on these issues at the appropriate juncture.
In relation to the future of nuclear energy in South Africa, a decision will be taken by Cabinet on the advice of the National Nuclear Energy Executive Co-ordinating Committee. The National Development Plan, NDP, makes proposals about costs, financing and timing risks that need to be properly assessed before any final investment decision is made on new nuclear power stations.
It is important to state that there is no new energy plan. The Department of Energy is currently reviewing the Integrated Energy Plan which will only have official status as our new energy plan after Cabinet has considered and approved it.
It may be worth setting the record straight by saying the remit of the National Planning Commission, NPC, is to undertake independent research to inform future planning decisions. To this end, the NPC commissioned the Energy Research Centre at the University of Cape Town to undertake electricity sector modelling using new demand assumptions and updated data on power supply options. This is not a new official energy or electricity plan for South Africa, but rather a set of modelling outputs which indicate possible electricity investment options given certain input assumptions.
The results of this modelling exercise were discussed with the Department of Energy. The Minister of Energy will be best placed to provide an update on the process in relation to energy planning. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I am a little bit reluctant to ask a follow-up question as I think it would be unfair to ask the Acting Minister this particular question because all the questions and portions thereof that were coupled to the research have been referred to the Department of Energy.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I would only ask now if the Cabinet is taking cognisance of the research or independent research that the National Planning Commission has come up with because some valid points were made such as the fact that we do not need nuclear energy for the next 15 to 20 years. Is Cabinet taking cognisance of that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Van Lingen, at the beginning you said you were not going to ask a question and then, all of a sudden, you come with a question on energy. Is there a linkage? [Interjections.] Just take your seat.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Yes, there would be a linkage but the question is misplaced at the moment. It should be referred back to the Minister of Energy.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Exactly. Any follow-up questions? Acting Minister, please respond to your next question.
QUESTION 107
QUESTION 106
Question 107:
The ACTING MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION (Mr G Nkwinti): Hon Chair, the answer is yes. By virtue of the mandate of the National Planning Commission, the outputs of the commission are heavily research driven. In preparing the NDP, we relied extensively on evidence-based research, either commissioned or harvested by the commission. Particular areas of work as, for example, articulated in Chapter 2 of the plan which deal with the South African demographics required highly specialised modelling to be done.
The commission updates its information base using available research in a number of areas. For example, the demographics chapter is being updated using data sets from Census 2011. Particular areas of work now in progress include the Urban Development Framework, the Early Childhood Development Programme and the education collaboration partnership, all of which require an action agenda informed by detailed research updated on a continuous basis.
Similarly, work in respect of youth employment and the appropriate energy mix are parts of the research now under way. In relation to mobilising support for the NDP, we continue to engage South Africans in all sectors on various aspects of the plan. The NPC has recently finalised its communication strategy to guide its communication programme. Elements of this include presenting the NDP in public fora; engaging organisations in different sectors; engaging government departments in all spheres; distributing copies of the NDP to all public libraries and to Thusong centres and making better use of the social media platforms as well as media in general. Thank you.
IsiNdebele:
Ms M G BOROTO: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, ngifuna ukutjho ukobana, ngithokozela urhulumende ngokusebenzisana nokukhambisana nokwenziweko, nokobana nathi sizakuncedisa emfundeni zamakhetho ngo kusebenzisana ndawonye nangekambiso. Ngiyathokoza.
QUESTION 108
QUESTION 107
Question 108:
The ACTING MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION (Mr G Nkwinti): Deputy Chairperson, the answer is no. The responsibility for monitoring rests with the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation headed by the hon Minister Collins Chabane, my colleague sitting next to me here. It is tasked with monitoring all government outputs in relation to set priorities.
The National Planning Commission secretariat and the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation are in the process of drafting a proposed Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, for 2014-19. This MTSF will incorporate proposals in the National Development Plan and will form the framework for monitoring to be undertaken by the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation in the next period.
In relation to whether departments and other spheres of government are integrating the NDP into their plans, I will refer you to the speech I made on 12 June 2013 in the National Assembly during the Budget Vote on the Presidency. I gave examples of various national and provincial departments as well as local governments that have already included the proposals of the NDP in their plans for 2013.
This is a process that is continuing to develop as departments and municipalities revise their plans. This House has an important role to play in ensuring that the NDP is included in departmental plans and ultimately implemented. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
QUESTION 113
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,19 Sep 2013,"Take 27 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
QUESTION "National Council of Provinces Main", Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-27] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
QUESTIONQU
108
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Sep 2013,"take 28 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces la affect Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-28] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
Question 113:
The ACTING MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION (Mr G Nkwinti): Deputy Chairperson, the answer is yes. The National Planning Commission engaged with the Ministry and Department of Public Service and Administration, amongst other stakeholders, in the process of refining and finalising the National Development Plan.
In terms of a Cabinet decision, consultation is currently taking place on the development of the draft Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, for 2014-2019 which will incorporate proposals contained in the plan.
The National Planning Commission will continue to work with departments to clarify proposals to assist with implementation. The capacity and developmental commitment of the state as a critical condition for the successful implementation of the NDP is an important aspect of the plan. Amongst the issues that would contribute to building a capable and developmental state, the NDP identifies the need to pay greater attention to skills development and strengthening accountability mechanisms.
Chapter 13 of the NDP on building a capable and developmental state provides a set of proposals on how we can improve skills development in the Public Service. Extensive attention is also given to the steps needed to enhance accountability both in Chapters 13 and 14, which focus on the fight against corruption.
The specific issues relating to progress and reskilling officials and the consequences for officials who fail to fulfil their duties would better be addressed to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration.
Setswana:
Ms M P THEMBA: Motlatsamodulasetulo, ke leboga go menagane, ga gona potso e nngwe gape. Ke a leboga.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): The time's over, unfortunately. [Interjections.] Hon Van Lingen, we have finished. I asked ...
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: But you didn't ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You play this game all the time.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Sorry, Madam Chairperson. No, no ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You play this game all the time when the time is over.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Madam Chairperson, I put my hand up, but you listened to her.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, there is a convention and I think we should respect that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Yes, we must respect that and we can't expect him to ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Nkwinti is an Acting Minister and we must wait for hon Manuel to come back and answer. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, please take your seat. We have just explained that listening is such a special skill. Every member in this House is supposed to actually listen attentively so that we do not make mistakes. It has been explained to you, and please let us not continue arguing unnecessarily, my hon member. Thank you.
Acting Minister, thank you for all the answers you have given thus far.
QUESTION 109
QUESTION 113
Question 109:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Chairperson, consider this answer to be the continuation of the answer which was given by the President yesterday.
On 2 August 2013, the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, undertook an oversight visit to Bojanala District Municipality in the North West. The IMC visited four separate human settlement projects in the three priority municipalities of the district as part of assessing progress in the implementation of the Presidential Package. The IMC visited Saulspoort in the Moses Kotane Local Municipality, Boitekong and Bokamoso in Rustenburg, as well as Sunway Village in the Madibeng Local Municipality.
Saulspoort housing project in Mogwase Unit 8 was approved in 2010 for the building of 1 120 fully subsidised houses with a budget allocation of R73,5 million. A total of 700 housing units are in the process of being constructed as part of the Upgrading of Informal Settlements Programme.
The IMC also visited the Boitekong Extension 12 rental Community Residential Units, CRU, project in Rustenburg which has a budget allocation of R55 million. There are currently 200 CRUs for rental under construction. Construction in Boitekong began ahead of schedule in August and is due to be completed ahead of its March 2014 deadline.
The IMC's oversight also included a visit to new partnership programmes as envisioned in the Presidential Package between government, communities, labour and business, with a view to developing sustainable human settlements and vibrant, robust economies in the priority mining districts.
The Bokamoso integrated housing project is one such promising venture. The project saw Anglo American donating land to the Rustenburg Local Municipality for the purpose of building subsidized housing for community members and mineworkers alike. The project has the potential to build 20 O00 houses in the long term, with phase one targeting 3 600 homes.
The memorandum of understanding, MOU, for this project has been signed between the government and social partners, and the target is to ensure that 800 houses are built by March 2014. To date, 20 show houses, consisting of conventional and alternative technologies which have been funded by Anglo American, are complete and ready for occupation. The contractor has been appointed for the civil and top structure construction for the first 800 fully subsidised units.
The Sunway Village project in Madibeng is another example of innovation in partnership between the Madibeng Local Municipality and Hernic Ferrochrome, in an integrated and mixed income housing project to the value of R108 million. The project includes the relocation of 500 households from the Dekroon informal settlement that can utilise the Finance Linked Individual Subsidy Programme, Flisp, in an integrated housing development in an area close to the Haartebeespoort Dam. Phase one of this project will consist of 1 000 fully subsidised units. To date, 708 foundations and 209 wall plates have been completed.
The thrust of the efforts by the local municipalities has been, firstly, the provision of basic services to improve the lives of the mineworkers and the surrounding communities.
Secondly, concentrated efforts have been made to interact with stakeholders to purchase land for development and for the provision of bulk services. Thirdly, the national Department of Human Settlements has been working with the provincial and local government to ensure that projects that are ready for implementation will be fast-tracked.
The challenges that will affect the delivery of sustainable human settlements include, firstly, a lack of bulk infrastructure, that is water, sanitation, roads and electricity; secondly, the need to connect to the sewerage plant via privately owned land and the need to register a servitude; thirdly, inadequate funding for bulk infrastructure and specifically the need for funding bulk infrastructure for the Sunway and Mooinooi projects; fourthly, lack of capacity at the municipalities to manage the human settlement-delivery processes and the management of the stock into the future; and finally, the availability of appropriate land for human settlement purposes in the areas where the informal settlements are located.
With regard to other areas of progress, over and above my reply to the first question, the following should be noted: firstly, discussions with respect to a land availability agreement for Sunway with the Ferro Chrome Mining Company are under way. Secondly, the North West provincial human settlements department has committed to provide funding for the Flisp and CRU developments in the Sunway Village development to accommodate the mineworkers. Thirdly, the national Department of Human Settlements and Lonmin have begun discussions regarding the management of the processes of human-settlement delivery in Marikana. Fourthly, processes to identify the project pipeline for the rental stock, funding requirements and commitments are under way; and finally, discussions with the Housing Development Agency and the National Urban Redevelopment Construction Agency with regard to project management assistance are underway. Progress in implementation of the commitments of the Presidential Package has continued well in 2013.
The IMC will ensure the deepening of the Bojanala plan to address catalytic economic development, as well as to ensure roll-out to the remaining priority sites, including Klerksdorp, Emalahleni, Sekhukhune, Lephalale, West Rand and Welkom.
The IMC has appointed an interdepartmental team of directors-general to ensure the development of sustainable plans and the speedy addressing of any impediments or blockages to delivery. The Department of Human Settlements has completed developing a framework for the development of human settlement implementation plans. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has enlisted the help of the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency to assess and augment capacity to ensure that the plans are implemented.
We are dealing with various challenges, including the following: the quality of integrated development plans, IDPs, and long-term plans; the vertical and horizontal integration of institutional framework; establishing a regulatory framework to ensure compliance; commitment of all parties to implementation, and maintaining peace in industrial relations in mining areas.
Government, mining companies, labour and traditional leadership are committed to working together to unblock various challenges that have been identified in the implementation of various projects. The IMC is pleased that the implementation of the special Presidential Package is on course and that the lives of mineworkers and communities surrounding mines are being improved for the better. Thank you.
Mr F ADAMS: I want to thank the Minister for the great response, but I want to find out from him what measures or strategies have been put in place by the IMC to tackle, if any, dragging or negative attitudes by the contractors or service providers?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Like any other normal operation which we engage in, one will find challenges from time to time, but for now I think the only challenges which we had were in two areas, which I think is critical for the House to note.
In the project in Boitekong, there was conflict between the main contractor and subcontractors. The subcontractors said that they were supposed to have been appointed as the main contractor. We hope those issues are being handled between ourselves and the district and local municipality to try and resolve the issues. But the project itself has started and is on course. We think we will be able to meet the targets.
The other area is the conflicts within communities where one finds disputes in traditional leadership or disputes around land. Those issues need to be resolved in order for us to be able to access the land, so that we can plug into it. Nevertheless, there is general consensus in terms of how we are going to work.
As a ministerial committee, we have not physically moved to other areas but the technical team has been to other areas. We are tackling them block by block. I think our next one is either to Sekhukhune, Lephalale, Welkom or Carltonville. I'm not sure how it's going to be structured but we are going to move very quickly to other areas in order to assess the progress that we are making.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, my question to the hon Minister is in connection with this development.
My understanding is that there must be an agreement between his department and the other role-players, including the mine owners, on the development or betterment of the housing situation of mineworkers. My question is: What percentage of those other role-players is actually contributing to the Minister's department in order for him to carry on and see to the betterment of the housing situation of mineworkers and other situations concerning them, thereby actually putting the Minister in a position whereby he can continue and complete his plan?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: You would recall that this issue started as a discussion between the mines, communities, traditional leaders and government in the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC. However, because of the volume of work in the PICC, the President decided to remove this part from the PICC because of its urgency and handed it over to us, and for me to chair the committee.
We have all the stakeholders, from the mines, the Chamber of Mines, communities from various areas, traditional leaders and everybody else within the committee.
You would recall that, at the beginning of the year, Parliament voted over R1 billion for this programme, which is managed by the Department of Human Settlements.
In terms of the Mining Charter, there is a requirement for mines to contribute towards social issues around mining towns. We are negotiating with the mines to find out exactly what they do, and that is why some of them are able to contribute land. Some of them are supposed to do this, but on their own some of the mining houses have been building houses for miners. We are saying that it's not sufficient to build a small town in a village and then to leave out the community that is staying there. That is why the partnership between government and the mining houses needs to be co-ordinated.
If you look at the answer with regard to where we are working with Anglo American, and where we hope that we will ultimately be able to build 20 000 houses, in that area, it will be a mix of what is supposed to be a contribution from the mining sector, that is houses for miners, and houses for communities. This one was supposed to be from Human Settlements. That's why the Department of Human Settlements and the municipalities are key, so that you don't only build houses but all other amenities, like schools, clinics and other amenities that will be required there. It's a huge developmental approach that we are undertaking but we think that we are moving with speed, and hopefully every stakeholder who is supposed to contribute something will be able to contribute.
At the moment we cannot say what percentage because the projects vary as well as the size of the workforce in the mines and the type of settlements around them. However, we think we are working very well so far to try to unlock all those things. Thank you.
Question 110
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,17 Sep 2013,"take 29 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
QUESTION 109
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-29] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
Question 110:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: This is the answer to Question 110. I don't want to be like my colleague who answered the wrong question.
The implementation of the recommendations contained in the Presidential Review Committee, PRC, report on state-owned enterprises, SOEs, forms part of the broader process of the implementation of the PRC report on SOEs. The PRC concluded and submitted its report in June 2012. The report underwent Cabinet processes of debate and comments by Cabinet members, and was accepted on 30 April 2013.
The President is still considering the matter, and will determine and announce the interministerial committee to implement the recommendations as a whole in line with the Cabinet resolution that it needs to be implemented as recommended, whereby a Cabinet committee needs to be set up to deal with the matter. Thank you.
Ms M P THEMBA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, having noted that the recommendations of the committee have been presented, can the Minister tell us when the long term or full implementation will be done? If the Minister does not have the full details, can he forward the details to the House in due course? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: I do have the full details. Firstly, the issue is that the President appointed the committee which was supposed to look into this matter. I was responsible for managing that process. The committee finished the report which was presented to the President, and the President took the report to Cabinet for deliberation on the matter. In April, the Cabinet accepted the recommendations with comments. Part of the recommendations made was that a ministerial committee needs to be appointed to manage the implementation.
Secondly, a technical committee needs to be appointed to deal with the administrative issues around the implementation. That relates to both the short term and the long term. It must be understood that we deal with over 700 state-owned entities across the spheres of government. Some of them are making profit while others are struggling. Some of them are listed companies while others have shares in listed companies, and so forth. The management of that process needs to be handled carefully so that the state-owned entities are not placed in difficulty in terms of the relationships that they are building.
The process right now is that the President will need to decide on the appointment of the interministerial and technical committees. Once that process is in place then the implementation process will begin. That is the next stage or the next phase which is supposed to happen. At this point the President has not yet appointed the two committees to process the report.
Mrs R N RASMENI: Hon Chair, central to the challenges raised by the Presidential Review Committee on state-owned enterprises, SOEs, is the fact that there are challenges with regard to balancing the trade-offs between commercial and non-commercial objectives of SOEs, but coupled with this is the poor performance and management of some of these SOEs. In strategic SOEs, such as those providing essential services like electricity and water, we have seen constant complaints about the interruption of services, the sometimes exorbitant fees for services rendered and high salaries for management.
In light of the findings of the PRC on the proliferation of SOEs to approximately 715 entities, the question is whether government is considering establishing a national regulatory framework for the management and service standards of SOEs in South Africa, and whether such standards will look at streamlining some of these entities with the intention of amalgamating them according to their services. If so, what is the process in this regard and, if not, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chairperson, as the hon member has said, these are the varieties of state-owned entitied, SOEs, which perform different functions. They are of different sizes and have different asset bases. There are challenges which have been identified. Part of the recommendations that we need to consider are: Firstly, taking those functions which can be performed better in government back to government and de-establishing some of them; and secondly, for those which are not profit-making, or those that are not sustainable on their own but depend on the fiscus all the time, to consider whether another mechanism of managing them or performing the function could not be looked at.
Amongst others is the regulatory framework. Most of them are established in terms of legislation. Each and every one of them has its own legislation, different appointment mechanisms, different funding mechanisms, different structures, different processes of appointment of boards and chief executive officers, CEOs, and so on.
The question was raised as to whether we do not want to rationalise SOEs in terms of their categories, and whether to rationalise the mechanisms or the manner in which the boards, CEOs and the management are appointed. Those are some of the things that the implementation committee will have to look at. We cannot say yes or no until the details and the fundamentals on the actual operation of these SOEs are discussed. The hon member is correct in saying that those are some of the issues which will be considered, going forward, with regards to what needs to be done with SOEs that do almost similar work.
It must be remembered that some of these entities are national, provincial or local, and we have to deal with the issues within the context of intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance between the spheres of government. We have to go through all the legal issues to be able to ensure that even when we do rationalise, we don't disadvantage municipalities or provinces, or sometimes disadvantage a function which is supposed to be performed by one department but is nevertheless being performed by another department. Those are the issues which the committee is going to look at.
Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, forgive my ignorance in this regard as I have no insight into these recommendations on the state-owned enterprises, SOEs. I would like to know how wide the consultations for the inputs into the recommendations on certain SOEs were. Was business and private enterprises consulted, and were there recommendations from the public? What sort of inputs went into the final recommendations? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chairperson, I would not know offhand the list of those who were consulted but I can guarantee you that there was very wide consultation.
Firstly, benchmarking was done in order to make a comparative study with other countries. Quite a number of countries have been looked at in order to see how they are managing the issues of SOEs and all issues pertaining to them.
Secondly, there was a wide range of consultations done internally with stakeholders, labour, political organisations, institutions such as universities, business institutions and individuals who felt they needed to make contributions. There was quite a wide range of consultations. It should be in the report. The report can be left here and all the details as to who else was consulted can be found. I think the list of all the people who were consulted should be in the report. Thank you.
QUESTION 111
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Sep 2013,"Take 30 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-30] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
QUESTION 110
Question 111:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: House Chairperson, it should be noted that the Management Performance Assessment Tool, MPAT, 2011-11 only reported on the results of self-assessments. The moderation process was not piloted in 2011-12 and the moderated results were not produced.
The degree to which the results from 2012-13 can be compared to the results of 2011-12 is, therefore, limited. The moderated 2012-13 assessment results provide a baseline for year-on-year comparisons which will be made in future.
Nonetheless, a comparison between the MPAT 2012-13 moderated results and MPAT 2011-12 self-assessment results can be provided. Scores for both strategic management and financial management improved between the two years. These improvements could be the result of increased awareness of compliance requirements following the 2011-12 MPAT assessments.
The Department of Performance, Monitoring and Evaluation also presented the results of the 2011-12 assessment to Cabinet and various provincial executive councils. This was instrumental in ensuring that the executive, in many instances, gave more focus and attention to monitoring improvements in basic management and administration.
In a number of provinces, the offices of the Premiers co-ordinated the development and monitoring of improvement plans. At national level, the Forum of SA Directors-General, Fosad, actively monitored compliance to certain management and administrative issues. At an oversight level, the Department of Performance, Monitoring and Evaluation also presented results to some portfolio committees in Parliament which required departments to present improvement plans to them.
The audit outcomes of national and provincial departments have not improved significantly to date. Many departments have, however, implemented improvement plans based on their MPAT assessments and audit findings for 2012-13. This will have a positive impact on the next round of scores of the MPAT results and audit findings. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Are there any follow-up question? In the absence of any follow-up question, then we shall...Is that a supplementary question? You must raise your hand, not your body! [Laughter.] I thought you were leaving the Chamber; nevertheless, you may proceed.
Mr B L MASHILE: House Chairperson, I understand that these assessments are to evaluate government performance by departments to deliver services in relation to, among other things, general management, administration and financial management. If this understanding is correct, these assessments will also reflect the performance of those relevant officials responsible for those government responsibilities or functions.
Now, hon Minister, does your department expect relevant departments to also use the assessment outcomes for the annual performance appraisals of those officials and, possibly, end-of-year bonus payments? Is that what your department expects?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, you are spot-on. The current performance agreement, which exists between officials and departments, is not adequate to hold officials accountable. It's not adequate for us to be able to improve where we are not moving. That is why you would find somebody having a disclaimer but still get a performance bonus in audit outcomes.
For the first time, this system is able to tell us where the problem is. In the past we would know that there was a problem in the department but nobody could tell exactly what the problem was. For the first time, we can tell you, out of all the 156 departments, both national and provincial, that this is where the problem is. In our view, that will help us when we have to draft a performance agreement. We will need to know what issues need to be included so that, if officials are not performing properly, it's easier for one to take action rather than to speculate.
The information that we have is not speculation because, as explained about the process, the officials start by doing their own assessments. After we've given them a set of questions, they sit down as management and as a team and go through those questions, score themselves and then we request evidence.
We then take the assessments to the audit commit of that department or institution in order for the committee to verify that information. We then establish a panel of officials from various departments. We take one official from a particular department to another department in order to check what has been audited. We then do moderation through an independent panel. After that we get outside institutions - at the moment we are working with the University of Witwatersrand and one other institution - to do a review and analyse the results and tell us what the results reveal. So, it's a very thorough and vigorous process.
However, for officials, it's a very short process.One could take about four hours and they would be done. That is why we think that that system will help us to ensure that everybody who is working at a particular station should be able to respond positively. We think that in a few years we will be able to improve.
The countries which we have been working very closely with in this regard - there are quite a number of countries which are doing it, but we are doing it differently - mostly say it took them three to four years to perfect the system and make it work. We think, given the experience which they have, we should take a shorter period to reach that point. Thank you.
QUESTION 112
QUESTION 111
Question 112:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: House Chairperson, this is the response to Question 112.
The Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation has not looked at the extent and impact of unfunded mandates on the performance of the municipalities and provinces.
National Treasury has been covering the issue of unfunded mandates in its review of Local Government Budgets and Expenditure Review for the past years. Chapter 3 of the Local Government Budgets and Expenditure Review 2006-07 to 2012-13 deals extensively with the issue of intergovernmental relations and the local government fiscal framework.
The chapter also deals with various legislation, which organises the system of intergovernmental relation as envisaged in the Constitution, and the issue of mandates and funding is aptly dealt with in that chapter.
Currently, National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance are carrying out a joint review of the local government functional and fiscal framework, looking at the existing system of functional assignments, eg., the division of powers and functions between local and district municipalities, and between municipalities and provinces. I thank you.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: House Chairperson, hon Minister, in understanding and agreeing with what you are saying with regard to the work that is done by those two departments, which is also commendable, the persistence on the performance of municipalities and spending on unfunded mandates - as the Financial and Fiscal Commission indicates in its study - reveals the depth and massiveness of the problem of unfunded mandates and its negative impact on many delivery mandates that the municipality must have, including infrastructure, the levels of service, and even the personnel that is allocated to these projects.
Given the above and your response, and also inferring from the previous answers which you have given, which clearly demonstrated the role of your department and the Presidency, and with the high levels of confidence and trust by our people in your department and the Presidency, is there a concerted effort to make a consideration? One of the missing links on this matter is continuous monitoring and evaluation so that the persistence doesn't continue. So, is there a consideration by your department or the Presidency to also play a role, in addition to the interventions that the two departments which you mentioned in your answer, are carrying out? I thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Nzimande, there is a great danger that our department might end up doing everything if we don't manage our department properly. That is why we are very careful not to take on responsibilities unless we have been instructed by Cabinet or the President to do so.
On the issue of unfunded mandates, as I said, the simplest answer for us could have been to say: It's not our job, full stop. But, I went at length to try and explain so that, at least, we understand. We are currently doing a pilot to do a Management Performance Assessment Tool, MPAT, assessment of municipalities because municipalities are different from provincial and national governments.
If, in the course of doing our work in that area, we pick up that there is a critical issue which cripples municipalities and their functionality, we will definitely raise the matter. But we would not, under normal circumstances, go and take up an issue, even if it's a problem, without being properly being mandated to do so. Otherwise, we might end up doing everything else on earth!
Nevertheless, as I'm saying, if there is a need for us to do that as a result of this, we will then go to Cabinet or whatever authority to say we think we can assist in dealing with this matter. Till now, we have never done an assessment with regard to the impact of unfunded mandates and how they make it impossible for municipalities to function properly. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister about this unfunded mandate. In respect of the audit compliance for local municipalities and the Generally Recognised Accounting Practice, Grap 17, compliance for unbundling assets and so on, municipalities, especially the smaller ones, haven't got funds available to comply with the GRAP 17.How does one handle a situation like that or has it been investigated?
I asked the Auditor-General what audit compliance really costs a small municipality. The Auditor-General said: Well, that's a very interesting question. We will do an investigation into that. So, will your impact plan, perhaps, reveal something like this or how do you suggest we handle it? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: House Chairperson, as I said, we are doing a pilot project. We have set up a system for MPAT assessment of municipalities. We are now running a pilot project and probably, in a few months' time, we will know what the issues are. If this issue arises as part of that process, we will definitely tackle it. But, for now, we have got no idea. Thank you.
QUESTION 124
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Sep 2013,"Take 31 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-31] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
QUESTION 112
Question 124:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, this question is also a sister or a brother to another question, which was asked to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Nevertheless, I will answer part of it, just to share information with the hon members.
The Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation has not looked at the impact of monies owed between various spheres of government. Currently, the National Treasury is doing monitoring of expenditure and budgets in terms of section 71 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Act, Act 44 of 2003, and section 30(3) of the Division of Revenue Act, Act 6 of 2011. The reports are sent to Parliament to assist its members to perform their oversight role. These reports are available on the National Treasury website.
In June 2009, the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation issued a communiqué to all departments requesting them to ensure that they comply with Treasury Regulation 8.2.3 to pay suppliers within 30 days. This resulted in the National Treasury issuing Treasury Practice Note Number 34, requiring departments to report on their compliance with the Treasury Regulation. Together with the National Treasury, the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation have been monitoring the payment of suppliers within 30 days and providing reports to Forum of South African Directors-General, Fosad, which is a structure comprising the directors-general, the Cabinet and the parliamentary portfolio committees to enable them to exercise the oversight responsibility.
There are no plans to create legislation or policy framework to enforce the payment of services rendered between spheres of government. The current legislation on the payment of suppliers, as provided by the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, section 8.2.3 of the Treasury Regulations and National Treasury Practice Note 34, also applies to payments between spheres of government within 30 days of receipt of a valid invoice. What is critical for government departments and the different spheres of government is to comply with this legislative framework. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In the absence of supplementary questions, I thank the Minister for availing himself to respond to questions in the House. Thank you very much, Minister and Deputy Minister.[Interjections.]
The questions that have not been answered will become questions for written reply, as the Minister was not available to reply.
Mr M H MOKGOBI
QUESTION 124
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO UMVOTI LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO ABAQULUSI LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - INTERVENTION IN DITSOBOTLA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - INTERVENTION IN MATLOSANA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - INTERVENTION IN MAQUASSI HILLS LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Hon Chairperson, I will make a statement on the interventions, starting with interventions by KwaZulu-Natal, in the Umvoti and Abaqulusi Local Municipalities. The committee recommends that the Council approve this intervention in terms of section 139. The basis for approval is that the committee has observed that the turnaround plan is in line with local government strategic objectives that would want to improve governance, service delivery, sectoral development, financial compliance and Local Economic Development, LED. Of course, the committee recommended that there should be measurable objectives and timeframes in this regard.
Also, the committee recommended that there should be political will because there is a serious squabble amongst parties in this municipality. We recommended a multiparty approach, wherein each party should teach each councillor about the roles of councillors. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order! Order, hon members! Hon members, order, please.
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Each party should call its own councillors in order to make them adhere to normal Council rules.
The other recommendation we make is that there should be an intensive collaboration on investigations, led by the Hawks, into the perceived fraudulent activities in this municipality. There is also a need for a speedy resolution of the mayorship, as it is not clear whether the person who was a mayor was a mayor legitimately or not. Therefore, we need a speedy resolution as it is a party matter, not necessarily a Council matter. Those were the recommendations in respect of Umvoti Local Municipality.
With regard to Abaqulusi Local Municipality, the committee observed that, indeed, the turnaround also followed the five strategic objectives of local government. The observation is that, in this case, the intervention has already brought about political and administrative stability. There is a need to intensify involvement of stakeholders to assist this municipality. The staff has low morale. Also, there is a need to fill vacant posts speedily.
There is also a question of financial compliance to reduce unauthorised, irregular and wasteful expenditure. We would also recommend that appropriation and finance committees look into this matter specifically.
Both Umvoti and Abaqulusi Local Municipalities meet the requirements of section 139(1)(b). We recommend approval.
With regard to Ditsobotla and Maquassi Hills Local Municipalities, we recommend approval, even though there is a slight challenge in terms of meeting the requirements. However, there is total dysfunction in these municipalities. Therefore, the committee recommends approval.
There are lots of factions in these municipalities. We also want to ensure that the allegations that there are so-called Bakonis and supremacies should be resolved quickly because it is institutionalised, and even the staff and the administrators are operating in line with these types of factions. The major factor that has caused the collapse in the Ditsobotla and Maquassi Hills Local Municipalities is factions.
At the Maquassi Hills Local Municipality, it was even more terrifying. As the committee arrived, we were greeted by armed people wielding automatic rifles as if in a terrorist camp. We would not even have thought we were entering municipal premises, but the committee had that political will to engage. At times the meeting was nearly disrupted. However, the committee managed to hold everyone together until the committee got what it wanted.
So, in this case, we recommend intervention in both Ditsobotla and Maquassi Hills Local Municipalities, even if there are slight challenges here and there. These municipalities are dysfunctional. There is a need for intervention.
Matlosana Local Municipality is a unique case. The committee recommended that the Council should not approve this intervention on the basis that the challenges we found there are like those found all over the whole country. They do not necessarily warrant intervention. If there is to be any intervention, it should be specifically defined. The other issue is the threat of the municipality challenging the provincial executive in court.
However, in terms of the presentation, this municipality does not warrant section 139(1)(b) intervention, but perhaps intervention in terms of other sections in the form of discretionary intervention. Therefore, we recommend the rejection of the intervention in the Matlosana Local Municipality in this regard. We also recommended that the Minister and the MEC should meet quickly to review the matter under discussion. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Oversight Visit to Umvoti Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Oversight Visit to Umvoti Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Oversight Visit to Abaqulusi Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Oversight Visit to Abaqulusi Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Intervention in Ditsobotla Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Intervention in Ditsobotla Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Intervention in Matlosana Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Intervention in Matlosana Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Intervention in Maquassi Hills Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Intervention in Maquassi Hills Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr A G MATILA
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,18 Sep 2013,"Take 32 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,12 Sep 2013,"[Take-32] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][nm].doc"
Mr M H MOKGOBI
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO BUSHBUCKRIDGE LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO EMALAHLENI LOCAL MUNICIPALITY.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS - INTERVENTION IN MNQUMA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY
Mr A G MATILA: House Chairperson, the Select Committee on Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, has gone through these interventions.
What we have observed in Bushbuckridge is that there is weak institutional capacity, weak internal control, poor financial management, bulk water problems, general weak community participation and irregular use of municipal funds. In this regard, there was misuse of R2,5 million in the municipality. As a committee, we therefore recommend that intervention is necessary and that this House must support it.
As far as Emalahleni is concerned, there is poor political leadership, corruption and fraud, weaknesses in supply chain management, divisions, infighting, factions in the council, poor water supply, filthy water and poor service delivery. Every section in the department has a supply management process. Councillors go to the extent of owning water tankers to supply water because somebody else has closed the supply of water in this specific municipality.
We also realised that more than 100 cars belonging to the municipality are lost. Nobody knows where they are. Also, what is worse is that there is a regional intervention in the municipality. When the municipality wants to suspend the municipal manager, councillors are given instructions that that must not happen.
There is a person that is employed as a chief financial officer, CFO, who earns R27 000 every week and this is a problem. It means that the council is totally dysfunctional. There are serious problems - political problems. We believe that an intervention is necessary.
We therefore recommend that the Hawks must immediately be called in and the police must deal with it. It must not be done at local level because even the community is now used to that particular process. They are part of looting the municipality's services and everything within it. If that does not happen, we believe that the province and the national government must intervene and dissolve that municipality. Therefore, we are saying that, in the interim, the intervention is necessary and section 139 may work. We believe that political intervention must not happen and therefore the intervention is necessary. We recommend that this House deal with that particular situation.
The last municipality is in the Eastern Cape, Mnquma Local Municipality. There is infighting and division among councillors. We have established that the speaker and the mayor are not on speaking terms. Each has his own group. It is like in the North West. Corruption is a serious problem. The same issues that are happening in Emalahleni are also happening in Mnquma. In actual fact, they are spending a lot of money on consultants, litigation and all those things.
Thirdly, there is a project of R18 million which rose to R68 million that was paid out. The project was budgeted for at R18 million over three years. Now, in 18 months, they have paid out R68 million for that particular project. It means that there is serious corruption and serious maladministration in that particular municipality. They have got the capacity to take the provincial and national government to court because they do not want an intervention in that specific area.
We recommend that there must be political management of the whole situation, and that the province and political organisations must move in and deal with that particular situation. We also recommend that an intervention is necessary to stop that particular process and make sure that the council functions properly. We therefore recommend that this House recommends that all interventions are necessary. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report on Oversight Visit to Bushbuckridge Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Oversight Visit to Bushbuckridge Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report on Oversight Visit to Emalahleni Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Oversight Visit to Emalahleni Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Question put: That the Report on Intervention in Mnquma Local Municipality be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report on Intervention in Mnquma Local Municipality accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 17:04.
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