Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 19 Sep 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
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START OF DAY
THURSDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
________________
The House met at 14:03.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers and meditation.
NOTICES OF MOTION
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START OF DAY
NOTICES OF MOTION
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the impact of the promotion and
implementation of multilingualism in government departments on
nation building and social cohesion. [Applause.]
Ms P MADUNA
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Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK
Ms P MADUNA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates to empower women legally for them to be
able to deal with gender inequality in the legal and political system. [Applause.]
Mr J H STEENHUISEN
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Ms P MADUNA
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the state of local government and the
urgent steps to improve it in light of the Auditor- General's report into the audit outcomes of local governments which shows a net regression of audit outcomes.
Mr K P SITHOLE
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Mr J H STEENHUISEN
Mr K P SITHOLE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the importance of urgently rolling out a comprehensive road safety policy with specific goals and objectives aimed at reducing the high number of vehicle accidents on our roads.
Mrs H LINE-HENDRIKS
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Mr K P SITHOLE
Mrs H LINE-HENDRIKS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the strengthening of the functioning of the labour market through reform and dispute resolution mechanisms.
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
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Mrs H LINE-HENDRIKS
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the impact of corruption and the inadequate measures used to combat it on service delivery to the poor.
Mr R N CEBEKHULU
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Dr A LOTRIET
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the role the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should play in order to ensure that the
fruit industry receives the necessary assistance in order to
gain better access to Asian markets.
Ms J MANGANYE
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Mr R N CEBEKHULU
Ms J MANGANYE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates placing the provision of water at the
centre of integrated development planning and decision-making.
Mrs D H MATHEBE
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Ms J MANGANYE
Mrs D H MATHEBE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates enhancing the capacity and
competitiveness of all state-owned enterprises.
Mnr J J VAN DER LINDE
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Mrs D H MATHEBE
Mnr J J VAN DER LINDE: Agb Adjunkspeaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat op die volgende sitting van die Huis ek 'n mosie sal voorstel namens die DA dat die indiensnemingbeleid van werkers by die Uitgebreide Publieke Werke Program, gedebateer word, om seker te maak dat alle munisipaliteite dieselfde beleid volg.
Mrs G K TSEKE
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Mnr J J VAN DER LINDE
Mrs G K TSEKE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates promoting social cohesion, social
integration and social inclusion.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
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NOTICES OF MOTION
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Mrs Vesta Smith)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes with sadness the death of 91 year old struggle veteran, Vesta Smith, on Monday, 9 September 2013, after a long illness;
(2) further notes that Ma Vee, as she was affectionately known in Soweto, served the ANC with humility, commitment and integrity since the 1950's and was a great freedom fighter;
(3) remembers that Ma Vee worked closely with Mama Albertina and Tata Walter Sisulu, and was detained in terms of the Internal Security Act at the Old Fort in 1976 with the likes of Mama Winnie Mandela and Mama Fatima Meer;
(4) further remembers that she attended the Congress of the People in Kliptown in 1955 and was part of the 1956 Women's March;
(5) recalls that she was honoured in Cape Town on 30 August 2013 by the Legal Resources Centre, one of several organisations she had served in her prime;
(6) believes that Mama Vesta was a gift to the ANC and she never had second thoughts about working for the movement even during difficult times; and
(7) conveys its deepest condolences to her family, cadres, relatives and friends.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONGRATULATIONS TO NICK SLOANE AND HIS TEAM
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that South African, Nick Sloane, led the team that successfully salvaged the wreck of the Costa Concordia cruise liner on 17 September 2013;
(2) further notes that this was the biggest salvage operation for a passenger liner ever undertaken;
(3) recalls with concern that the 290-metre, 114 000-tonne vessel, which ran aground off the Italian island of Giglio on 13 January 2012, killed 32 people;
(4) recognises Nick Sloane's contribution in leading the team that completed this feat; and
(5) congratulates Nick Sloane on his achievement.
Agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF PEACE - 21 SEPTEMBER
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on 21 September each year, the United Nations International Day of Peace is celebrated;
(2) further notes that this day recognises the efforts of those who have worked hard to end conflict and promote peace, and it is also a day of personal or political ceasefire;
(3) acknowledges that the theme for the 2013 International Day of Peace is Education for Peace; and
(4) calls on all to use this year's theme to raise the political profile of education and strengthen the global movement to achieve quality education.
Agreed to.
Mr M A NHANHA
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
MARKING OF 21 YEARS OF 1992 BISHO MASSACRE ON 7 SEPTEMBER
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M A NHANHA: I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that 7 September 2013 marked 21 years since the occurrence of the 1992 Bisho massacre in the then Bantustan of Ciskei;
(2) recognises the 27 gallant patriots who laid down their lives and the many heroes and heroines who were wounded during that fateful protest march;
(3) further recognises with great sadness the brave souls who paid the ultimate price to liberate many who had to endure the brutal repression of Ciskei's military government;
(4) acknowledges their brave contribution to the freedom we are enjoying as South Africans to this day; and
(5) conveys its gratitude to the victims of the Bisho massacre and the appreciation of the nation for the liberation achieved through the sacrifices they made.
Agreed to.
Mrs S V KALYAN
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Mr M A NHANHA
CONGRATULATING MR ALAN FLEMING AND THE FISH FARM ON ACHIEVEMENT
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs S V KALYAN: I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that South African, Mr Alan Fleming, and The Fish Farm in the Western Cape were shortlisted from over 800 entries ranging from 90 countries in the Siemens Stiftung's Global Empowering People Award;
(2) further notes that The Fish Farm is the world's first profitable mobile aquaculture business using 12 metre long shipping containers to produce 4-tone of fish annually;
(3) recalls that the award was first launched at the United Nations Summit for Sustainable Development in June 2012 to recognise developers around the world who create simple tech-innovations to promote sustainable development; and
(4) congratulates Mr Alan Fleming and The Fish Farm on their achievement and wishes him and The Fish Farm well when the winner will be announced on 30 October in Nairobi.
Agreed to.
Mrs F F MUSHWANA
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Mrs S V KALYAN
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Comrade Robert Mthombeni)
Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes the passing away of Comrade Robert Mthombeni, an
administrator at Phalaborwa municipality;
(2) further notes that he served the ANC tirelessly and will be missed.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, is that a Motion Without Notice or a Notice of a Motion?
Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is a Motion Without Notice. I thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can the Motion Without Notice be brought forward?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER
SUSPENSION OF RULE 253(1)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House suspends Rule 253(1), which provides, inter alia, that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee's report was tabled, for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate today on the Electoral Amendment Bill [B 22B – 2013] (National Assembly – sec 75).
Agreed to.
MEMBERS' STATEMENTS
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MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
RESULTS OF BY-ELECTIONS IN TLOKWE
(Member's Statement)
Mrs W J NELSON (ANC): Deputy Speaker, once again, the people have shown their support for the party which they believe will deliver a better life for them, and once again they rejected the DA. The ANC won by-elections in Wards 6 and 18 in Tlokwe in the North West province yesterday. [Interjections.]
In an apparent attempt to save face, the DA once again shows its arrogance and disrespect for the poorest of the poor by claiming unjustly that the ANC bought votes by distributing food parcels. [Interjections.] By believing that our people have so little respect for themselves that they can be bought with food parcels, shows the extent to which the DA is out of touch with the many citizens of our country. By insinuating that our people lack the capacity to distinguish between a party which advocates for the poor and marginalised in this country and the one which argues for opportunity society to ensure that the elite retain their privileges, the DA exposes their misguided thinking.
It has also come to light that last night onlookers saw three DA members – and may I add that they were heavily armed - two males and a female, allegedly handing out stacks of cash to the independent candidate of Ward 26, Mr Stone Mahlabe, for winning the ward for them. The very people you paid used violence and intimidation, grabbed ANC t-shirts from old, defenceless people.
There was no effort to conceal the handover, and we will ensure that this is investigated. If it is proven that Mr Stone Mahlabe sold out his supporters to the DA, who obviously ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr J H STEENHUISEN (DA)
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Mrs W J NELSON (ANC)
DA EXPERIENCING GROWTH DURING BY-ELECTIONS IN 2013
(Member's Statement)
Mr J H STEENHUISEN (DA): Deputy Speaker, the results of the by-elections held across South Africa yesterday show that the DA continues to win new support from the South Africans who had not previously voted for it.
The DA has experienced a significant growth in every by-election it has contested in 2013. It has retained its wards in eThekwini and Mossel Bay and has grown its support in Drakenstein, Merafong and Tlokwe. The results in Merafong and Tlokwe are particularly noteworthy. In Merafong, the DA received 24,37% of the votes, which is up from 10,63% in 2011.
This growth is good news for the DA's campaign to win Gauteng in 2014. More and more voters in Gauteng are choosing the DA to create jobs, stamp out corruption and deliver services to all - things that the ANC is incapable of doing. In the hotly contested Tlokwe by-election, the significant increase in the DA support is an endorsement of our performance in government in Tlokwe over the last ten weeks. The DA won 35,57% of the votes, despite the ANC's intensive vote-buying and disgusting Zanu-PF-style intimidation campaign. These results bode well for the DA for the 2014 national election. We will continue to work hard to win new votes by offering the real alternative for the citizens of this country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs C K K MOSIMANE (Cope)
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Mr J H STEENHUISEN (DA)
CALL FOR ACTION TO BE TAKEN AGAINST CORRUPTION IN MUNICIPALITIES
(Member's Statement)
Ms C K K MOSIMANE (Cope): Deputy Speaker, according to the Auditor-General's report, many municipalities are regressing. In 2009, the late former Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Sicelo Shiceka, admitted to the SA Local Government Association that many of our municipalities are in a state of paralysis and dysfunction. He mentioned North West as a benchmark of local municipality paralysis.
In 2013, the Special Investigating Unit's report exposes corruption, maladministration, lack of capacity, fraud and mismanagement, as well as political instability in many local municipalities and government in the North West Province. Cope calls on the officials in positions to take much more responsibility for the promises they make and the expectations they create. Investigations and action against those found guilty of various transgressions need to be taken as quickly as possible to avoid spending public funds unwisely. Thank you.
Ms M A MOLEBATSI (ANC)
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Mrs C K K MOSIMANE (Cope)
RELEASE OF NATIONAL CRIME STATISTICS
(Member's Statement)
Ms M A MOLEBATSI (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the release of the national crime statistics by the Ministry of Police in Pretoria today.
Over the past 19 years, the ANC has worked tirelessly in reducing the crime rate, making South Africa a better place to live in for its citizens, visitors, asylumseekers and investors.
Whilst we appreciate the drop in sexual assault and contact crimes, the increase in murder and attempted murder, and property-related crimes is a great cause of concern. Although the rape levels have decreased slightly, we still consider one rape as one too many. We will continue to remain focused and consolidate our efforts to ensure that the safety and security of all our citizens is guaranteed.
We call on individual citizens, communities and stakeholders to work with our police, in order to achieve a crime-free country. We must mobilise our communities to make sure that criminals have no space to hide and to prey on our neighbourhoods. We salute the police for their work and commitment. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs H S MSWELI (IFP)
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Ms M A MOLEBATSI (ANC)
CLOSING DOWN OF McCORD HOSPITAL
(Member's Statement)
Mrs H S MSWELI (IFP): Deputy Speaker, on Friday, the 104-year-old McCord Hospital is set to close, mainly because negotiations between the provincial health department and the board of the hospital have failed.
The reduction in funding, specifically when the department refused to renew the annual subsidy to the hospital, has now forced the hospital to close its doors. This will mean that all hospital staff will be unemployed, but the greatest casualty will be Durban's poor, as they were the main recipients of health care services. It is unacceptable that this hospital is being allowed to close down. The provincial health department should have ensured that this closure does not happen.
As we celebrate Heritage Day on 24 September, the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Health Department should be treating McCord Hospital as part of Durban's heritage, as it has been operating for 104 years. All avenues should be exhausted before allowing such a hospital to shut down, because it means we are neglecting to preserve the very heritage we claim to celebrate, while, at the same time, removing accessible health care from the reach of the poor. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N L KWANKWA (UDM)
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Mrs H S MSWELI (IFP)
CRISIS AT WALTER SISULU UNIVERSITY
(Member's Statement)
Mr N L KWANKWA (UDM): Deputy Speaker, the UDM is very concerned about the manner in which government and the Minister of Higher Education and Training are handling the crisis at Walter Sisulu University. If it was not for the intervention of the civil society, under the leadership of the SA Council of Churches, the current crisis would have escalated.
It is an indictment of Minister Nzimande that our President had to dispatch Minister Chabane to clean up his colleague's backyard. However, after an agreement was reached to end the seven-week-long strike, we hear that classes are disrupted yet again. The allegations are that the government is negotiating in bad faith and has reneged on its promises.
The UDM is of the view that Minister Nzimande has failed to attend to the challenges at Walter Sisulu University, which include, but not limited to, not intervening in the labour dispute timeously, not reporting on his department's turnaround strategy for the university, whether its budget allocation is adequate, and whether the salaries of academics and workers are competitive. Allegations are that local companies are overlooked for university business.
The university calls on government to urgently resolve the crisis at its campus because a day lost in a student's learning is a day too many. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr K B MANAMELA (ANC)
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Mr N L KWANKWA (UDM)
REPORT BY SA INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS ON TRACKING OF PERFORMANCE OF BLACK PEOPLE IN ECONOMY AND BROADER SOCIETY OVER SEVERAL DECADES
(Member's Statement)
Mr K B MANAMELA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the findings of the report released by the SA Institute of Race Relations tracking the performance of black people in the economy and the broader society over several decades, with a special emphasis on the post-1994 period. The report asserts that the widely held notion that racial transformation in South Africa has failed is not true, although the report acknowledges that much still needs to be done to create opportunities for black people.
The report highlights, to name but a few, that: the number of black African people that are employment has doubled since 1994; the proportion of black people – black African, coloured, and Indian – in top management jobs has almost doubled from 13% to 24% since 2000; the proportion of judges who are black has increased from 25% to 62% since 2000; and average individual monthly earnings from employment of black Africans have increased by more than 90% since 2006.
This report vindicates the ANC and reaffirms our assertion that 20 years into our democracy, the ANC has made much progress in improving the quality of lives of our people. However, we recognise that in order to meet the goals of our revolution and the new challenges facing us, we need to grow the economy to enable us to meet the needs of our people, create more decent work opportunities and sustainable livelihoods. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M W THRING (ACDP)
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Mr K B MANAMELA (ANC)
HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT RATE AMONGST THE YOUTH
(Member's Statement)
Mr M W THRING (ACDP): Deputy Speaker, the ACDP notes that last week President Jacob Zuma conceded that South Africa remains off track in to meeting its promise of two years ago, that of creating five million jobs by 2020. President Zuma told the NCOP that 750 000 jobs have been created since the government's New Growth Path came into place; certainly, not at the rate at which the majority of South Africans would have hoped for.
Entrepreneurship, particularly amongst the youth of our nation is a necessity. A small business enterprise results in the creation of new services. The ACDP notes with concern that the sector with the highest unemployment figure is within the youth of our country.
The ACDP does not just identify problems but also provides a solution which is the need to increase our support in the rural and semirural business sectors instead of granting tenders for building houses to the poor.
We should employ and train the poor to build their own houses in order to improve our unenviable status of being the most unequal nation in the world, as indicated by our Gini coefficient. More jobs must be created. Broad-based black economic empowerment, B-BBEE, is a misnomer in itself as it caters only for a narrow bend of well-connected individuals.
As a solution-oriented party, the ACDP would propose that money management and savings be incorporated into the education curriculum from Grade 1 to Grade 12. Thank you.
Mrs N W A MICHAEL (DA)
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Mr M W THRING (ACDP)
SA AIRWAYS TURNAROUND STRATEGY
(Member's Statement)
Mrs N W A MICHAEL (DA): Deputy Speaker, last week the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises was briefed on the latest SA Airways turnaround strategy. While appreciative that the plan was brought to Parliament, it was concerning that critical information was not provided, which included the following: how much the turnaround will cost; will it result in job losses; plans on cutting and introducing routes; whether SA Express, SA Airways and Mango Airline would be merging or not.
Following a statement I released regarding my concerns, Mr Mayihlone Tshwete tweeted, and I quote: "But all these areas were presented in the portfolio committee".
However, the next day, the chief executive officer, Monwabisi Kalawe, was reported stating that details on routes, recapitalisation, a timeframe for the return to profits and company mergers could not yet be provided. When asked why this information was not supplied, he replied: "We are not deliberately keeping information from this committee, we are respecting protocol."
I ask this House today, what protocol? It is protocol that portfolio committees are given all information that they require to exercise their constitutional mandate to oversight, including plans with costing and timeframes against which performance can be measured?
Let us not allow fairytale protocols to dictate on the mandate given to us by the people of South Africa. [Applause.]
Mrs H H MALGAS (ANC)
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Mrs N W A MICHAEL (DA)
PUBLISHING OF NEW DRAFT MINIMUM NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR SCHOOL INFRASTRUCTURE
(Member's Statement)
Mrs H H MALGAS (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the publishing of the new draft Minimum Norms and Standards for School Infrastructure by the Basic Education Ministry. All education stakeholders are expected to study the draft regulations and provide comments to the department by 11 October 2013.
As pointed out by the Minister, the objectives of the regulations were to guide the provision of an enabling physical teaching and learning environment that is sustainable and equable for all pupils in South Africa. Certain norms and standards, namely the availability of classrooms, electricity, water and sanitation and perimeter security are to be prioritised. These norms and standards are crucial for a conducive school environment.
Members of the Executive Council of provincial Education Departments will also be required to annually provide the Minister with detailed plans on the manner in which the norms and standards are to be implemented and to report to the Ministry annually on the implementation of their plans. The ANC supports this initiative by the Minister of Basic Education. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M HLENGWA (IFP)
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Mrs H H MALGAS (ANC)
DOUBT AND MISTRUST AGAINST INDEPENDENT ELECTORAL COMMISSION
(Member's statement)
Mr M HLENGWA (IFP): Hon Deputy Speaker, the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC, continues to find itself making headlines for all the wrong reasons; casting doubt on its expected independence, credibility and integrity. The following has occurred.
In Nongoma, a scanner went missing and people were fraudulently registered for a by-election in a ward in which they did not reside. In Jozini, a similar scenario occurred, and a by-election has been postponed indefinitely. In Abaqulusi, the by-election has been postponed on two occasions.
In Maphumulo, a female voted using her husbands ID. Upon enquiry as to how the officials allowed this to happen, the response was simply that they were tired, and it had been a long day, whilst there were still many hours remaining ahead of the vote.
In Tlokwe, independent candidates were wrongfully denied their right to stand in as independent candidates, and the Electoral Court had to reverse this grave democratic injustice.
The IFP is appalled at the corrupt election activities which undermine our freedom and democracy and the IEC must strengthen its security measures. Despite asked the IEC to tighten the voter registration procedures; it has refused to do so.
The question that arises is: If the IEC is battling to manage by-elections, then how possibly can we expect them to manage the 2014 national and provincial elections?
The IEC needs to safeguard its due processes against doubt and mistrust. The credibility, freeness and fairness of elections are heavily dependent on the process itself.
The IEC is an organisation which must lead by example, without incidents of mismanagement or maladministration tarnishing its image. [Time expired.]
Mr G B D MC INTOSH (COPE)
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Mr M HLENGWA (IFP)
NEWLY LAUNCHED TELEVISION STATION
(Member's Statement)
Mr G B D MCINTOSH (COPE): Madam Deputy Speaker, Cope wishes to note that an investigation by Berry Batman who is a journalist with the local radio station has uncovered what appears to be blatant flouting of immigration laws by the Gupta and of infinity media parent company of our newly launched television station Africa News Network 7, ANN 7.
Seven employees from India, with Indian citizenship, have been confirmed as being in South Africa on visit without permits and working for African News Network 7. They are allegedly working at the station illegally.
South Africa is one of the leading broadcasters in Africa competing with the best areas. During the Word Cup in 2010, the SABC was broadcast of choice for Fifa, using several of its qualified skilled and experienced long-serving artisans to train and work with foreign employees.
Concerning the Gupta TV network, however, workers from India do the same jobs that South African workers have proven to can do so expertly. Not even the most gullible South African is going to believe that our Department of Home Affairs has failed to respond to the allegations of the flaws of emigration laws. [Time Expired.]
Ms M L DUNJWA (ANC)
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Mr G B D MC INTOSH (COPE)
DA-LED STUDENTS ORGANISATION defeat by SA Students Congress Organisation
(Member's Statement)
Ms M L DUNJWA (ANC): The ANC congratulates the SA Students Congress Organisation, Sasco, for their recent decisive win at the Students Representative Council, the SRC, elections at the University of Port Elizabeth. [Applause.] The SA Student Congress Organisation defeated the DA-led Students Organisation, Daso, by winning 14 out of 22 contested posts in the elections; a clear majority by any standard.
Under the leadership of Daso, for the past 3 years, the students experienced major setbacks in terms of the lack of transformation. And the reluctance by DASO resulted in the setting up and strengthening of democratic structures on the campus.
In spite of DASO bringing in their DA Leader, Madam Helen Zille, their youth leader and many senior leaders of the DA to the campus with the hopes of ensuring votes, it was clear that youth voted for the organisation which has their best interests at heart.
The Sasco's victory is a forerunner for the ANC's decisive and overwhelming victory in the 2010 national and provincial elections. The ANC has the youth vote and this has been clearly demonstrated in these elections. The much vaunted DA youth has clearly been shown the door. [Applause.] Thank you.
Mr F RODGERS(DA)
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Ms M L DUNJWA (ANC)
DEAL SIGNED BY MINISTER EDNA MOLEWA WITH CUBA
(Member's Statement)
Mr F RODGERS (DA): Hon Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, Edna Molewa, has recently signed a deal with Cuba to fill the skills gap of 3 000 engineers in South Africa with 34 Cuban engineers. Any progress and skills development implementation to better the delivery of water in our country, especially for the rural poor who bare the brunt of the lack of infrastructure delivery, is welcomed.
However, Minister Molewa has to tell the millions of South Africans without adequate water infrastructure how their needs will be addressed by the political agreement with the country whose own water and sanitation is in crisis. In fact, it has the highest rate of waterborne disease.
The Minister needs to account to the rural poor why the learning academy with 1 072 interns has not delivered anything since 2007, and tell us how the Cuban connection is nothing more than political payback to the ANC. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms J TSHABALALA (ANC)
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Mr F RODGERS (DA)
COOPERATION WITH SARS A LESSON TO ALL OF US
(Member's Statement)
Ms J TSHABALALA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, after almost a decade, businessman Dave King has confessed to having made a mistake in refusing to co-operate with the tax authorities. He said this after agreeing to pay the Sars R706,7 million to settle his tax debt. In terms of the High Court, Mr King had said that not co-operating with the Sars authorities has been a big mistake. He had 41 counts of contravening sections 62 and 75 of the Income Tax Act of 1958.
In response to the judgement, Mr King said, "Choosing not to co-operate was a big mistake. I regret not to have engaged with the state sooner as I have found them to be extremely firm but fair in their dealings with me once I had fully engaged with them. I accept the fact that I have been noncompliant in the past and will rectify this. The conclusion of this dispute presents valuable lessons to all of us in the event that a taxpayer is approached by Sars and asked to explain their tax affairs; the correct measure of action is to seek an early resolution and co-operate fully with Sars."
Sars is approachable and will be able to assist in settling any dispute a taxpayer might have in a manner that is consistent with the applicable legislation. Any concerted effort not to unlawfully shift tax obligation offshore through a design of complex tax avoidance structures will ultimately be uncovered and result in punitive measures against the taxpayer.
Undertaking protracted litigation in defence of disputes raised by the Sars is indeed a constitutional right. However, it should be noted that should such a course of action be mala fide, it is likely to exacerbate both the state and the defendant's financial costs as well. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]
MINISTERS' RESPONSES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
MEMBERS' STATEMENTS
POLITICAL AGREEMENT WITH CUBA ON WATER AFFAIRS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak on the statement around the so-called "political agreement" with Cuba. The agreement that we signed last week with my Cuban counterpart was not the first one to be signed in this country. It was also not the first time that we brought in engineers who are water specialist in this country.
We have made it known and clear in the statement that we issued as to how many of such specialists - not in the health sector but in this sector of water - were brought into this country way before my arrival in this department. They have helped a great deal wherever they have. [Interjections.]
We would like to also remind you that no statement has ever been made that there are 34 Cubans who are coming. If you listen and read carefully, you will understand. We said that we were still going to go on a recruitment process to find those specialists that we needed in this country [Interjections.] "We will tell you" that is what I said. In case you ask the question: How much it will cost? Even that amount, we will tell you at that time.
Another thing that I really want to indicate is that in this country we expect even the DA to at least be saying to us: This is what we think should be done in order for companies that are linked to you - which you are also in charge of- to absorb some of the young professionals who are suffering; those who are certificated but are able to be trained as professional engineers because those companies are not able to take them in, train and mentor them.
Minister Blade Ndzimande is currently working on a programme to ensure that there is practical training that must happen within the sector of training, not only in universities, but also in FET colleges. Those are some of the measures that we are taking. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS
SA AIRWAYS TURNAROUND STRATEGY
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Deputy Speaker, with regard to the SA Airways' turnaround strategy, firstly, we would like to inform the House that there are elements of the strategy which cannot be disclosed here precisely because they constitute commercially sensitive information which would be detrimental to the interest of the airline if they were to be made public, and thus fall in the hands of the competitors of the airline. [Interjections.]
Secondly, the plan is currently being embedded into the shareholder compact of the SA Airways by the department, together with the co-operate plan for 2013-14. However, the interesting part is that the people who are complaining the most about the SA Airways do not fly with the SA Airways. [Interjections.] They do not understand the public mandate that they are talking about because they do not use SA Airways. They do not have confidence in the SA Airways. In actual fact, if you were to place the SA Airways in their hands ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members, please, order!
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: ... they would long have disposed of it, destroyed jobs, and disposed of critical capabilities that are owned by the state via the SA Airways. [Interjections.]
Finally, the people of South Africa have faith in the SA Airways. [Interjections.] That is why they expect us to undertake the measure that we are undertaking in order to turn the airline around. Hence, they have supported us in the measures that we have taken to protect 11 000 jobs and to ensure that this airline continues to bring the world into Africa and take Africa out to the world. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
MISINTERPRETATION OF REPORT ON GOVERNMENT JOB TARGETS
(Minister's Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Deputy Speaker, the statement that was made by the hon member of the ACDP misinterprets the report by the President on our government's job targets. First and foremost, the hon member should appreciate the economic challenges that are imminent the world over.
Secondly, the hon member should appreciate, again, the intervention that the government is making on youth employment. A few months ago, all stakeholders met in Soweto and signed the Youth Employment Accord, committing themselves to playing a role in youth economic development. The ACDP was absent!
Thirdly, we are already addressing the issue raised on the rural youth as I am rolling out economic outreach programmes in all provinces, particularly in rural areas, to help the youth to access the Department of Trade and Industry, the DTI, products. For small enterprise, we are also concentrating on the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, the BBBEE. The BBBEE is not only rolled out in cities, but it is also rolled out in rural areas.
Finally, I will therefore appreciate it if the hon member can join me when I go to Koffiefontein, Mogwase and Sisonke in order to experience the DTI's outreach programmes. The ANC-led government is hard at work and no efforts by those who are gunning for votes will erase the work of the ANC. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
RELEASE OF CRIME STATISTICS
(Minister's Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, to the member of the ANC ...
Sesotho:
... Mme Molebatsi, re leboha haholo ka dipalopalo tseo tsa botlokotsebe tseo re utlwileng ha Letona le di hlahisa moyeng maobane le kajeno lena. Re batla ho bontsha hore ha e ne e se ka tshebedisano-mmoho ya rona le setjhaba, ho ne ho se na tsela ya hore bo bong ba botlokotsebe re ka bo hlola. Empa, re a dumela hore ho na le bongata boo re tlamehileng ho bo etsa jwalokaha o bone hore ha re sekaseka taba ya polao, teko ya polao, ho tjhwatlelwa matlo le ho tjhwatlelwa dikgwebo re ntse re tshwanetse hore re sebetse ka matla hobane ho ntse ho e na le bofokodi. Le ha ho le jwalo, re lebohela tshebedisano-mmoho ya rona le setjhaba. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.]
The MINISTER OF LABOUR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
DA'S DELIVERING TO EVERYONE
(Minister's Response)
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZABASEBENZI: Sekela Somlomo, umhlonishwa we-DA ohleli ngaphesheya uthe, "i-DA ihlinzekela bonke abantu." Ngiyafisa ukwazi ukuthi ngabe abantu baseMbekweni nabase-Mitchell's Plein bangakusho yini ukuthi i-DA iyahlinzeka ngezidingo la eNtshonalanga Kapa. Lokhu ngikusho ngoba ngoMgqibelo nangeSonto bengiseMbekweni ngaphinde ngaya nase-Sir Lowry's Pass, abantu bakhona bahlala emijondolo enethayo.
I-DA ngesikhathi ikhankasa e-Ward 6 beyinika abantu amaphakethe okudla kanye nezikipa. Abantu bathe bafuna izikipa zikaKhongolose ngoba bayazi ukuthi uKhongolose ngumbutho wabantu. Ngakho-ke, i-DA mayingezi la ukuzokhohlisa umphakathi waseNingizimu Afrika ngokuthi ihlinzeka ngezidingo kanti yehlulwa yizindawo ezingaphansi
komasipala baseNtshonalanga Kapa. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 311
The MINISTER OF LABOUR
INVESTIGATION INTO HOME AFFAIRS' OFFICIAL'S CONDUCT
(Minister's Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise to comment on the statement by the hon Hlengwa. My understanding of the matter is that the official in question has been suspended and we are assured that investigations are underway. We wish to thank the IEC for the swift manner in which they have responded in this regard.
I also want to take this opportunity to remind members of this august House that, indeed, the IEC employs thousands and thousands of people; "one swallow does not make a summer"! I think we must urge members and leaders to be tempered when we cast aspersions on a body as important as the IEC.
Likewise, I also wish to assure the hon member McIntosh that only once our investigations in relation to the matter that he raised are complete, we will communicate both our findings and any possible action that we intend to take against any of our officials. We wish to reassure the hon member that if any of our officials is found to have acted improperly, we shall not hesitate to "throw the proverbial book" at him or her. Thank you. [Applause.]
ANNOUNCEMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
MEMBER'S STATEMENT MISTAKEN FOR MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to go back to the last item on the Motions Without Notice. It has since been confirmed that the statement that was made by the hon member was not meant to constitute a Motion Without Notice and will therefore not be captured in the minutes of the House.
FIRST ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATION FOR APPOINTMENT OF 12 NONEXECUTIVE MEMBERS OF THE SA BROADCASTING CORPORATION BOARD
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, my colleagues and our guests, it is with great and utmost humility that I present to this House, for consideration, the report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications, which was adopted on 17 September. This report includes, amongst other things, the finalised list of candidates to serve on the SABC's Board. Indeed, with the appointment of the SABC Board, the process to rebuild the public broadcaster has begun in earnest. It is therefore safe to say that the ANC's resolution in relation to the SABC is on track. This is but a foundation block towards ensuring that we achieve the objectives of the public broadcaster as articulated in the charter of the corporation and later in the ANC's 53rd National Conference resolutions.
I am convinced that the calibre of candidates that we interviewed bears testament to the quality and depth that our country is blessed with. More importantly, it reflects the kind of patriotism that is needed to drive our country forward. It is indeed unfortunate that, because of the limited number of candidates, all the candidates could not be accommodated. [Interjections.]
From a procedural point of view, the committee advertised and called for nominations. A total of 147 nominations were received and 37 were short-listed. Unfortunately, there was one withdrawal and only 36 candidates were interviewed. Following the interview of the 36 candidates, from 20 to 22 August and later from 27 to 28 August in Johannesburg, the committee resolved that this House, in accordance with section 13 of the Broadcasting Act, recommend the following candidates to the President, to be appointed as nonexecutive members to the SABC Board. Are you ready for the names?
The names are: Ms Rachel Kalidaas, Ms Ellen Zandile Tshabalala, Mr King Bonakele, Mr Vusumusi Mavuso, Ms Nomvuyo Mhlakaza, Mr Ronnie Lubisi, Prof Bongani Khumalo, Prof Obert Maguvhe, Mr Krish Naidoo, Dr Aaron Tshidzumba, Ms Noluthando Gosa and Ms Hope Zinde. [Interjections.]
Say it loud; say it loud! We are the ruling party and we should be proud of that. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Say it loud!
In an article written by Thabo Mokone on 18 September 2013, which appeared in the Times Live, it seems that there is consensus about this board within the labour movement and also the Save Our SABC, the SOS, Coalition. He wrote that, according to the Communications Workers Union, the CWU:
The board members are the right people for the job. They are experienced enough, well equipped and skilled. This is a very strong team.
He also wrote that, according to the SOS Coalition:
Many of those recommended are extremely experienced in the turnaround of institutions. The SABC's problems are structural and historical, and the new board would only be part of the solution. [Interjections.]
That was not us, so what more do you want? As the ruling party we deliver. That is why the labour and the coalition are supporting this board. [Interjections.]
Indeed, I must once again express my sincere gratitude to the committee members and the support staff of the committee for their commitment, diligence and sterling work during the entire process. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: For putting up with you!
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Indeed, all parties have internal political processes for mandates, so what is your problem? We have ours in the ANC and you have yours in the DA, Cope and so on. What is your problem?
Lastly, I appreciate the given opportunity to present to this House the outcome of the SABC board interviewing process and its outcomes for consideration by this House. Are you ready? Are you ready to support the ANC? I thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Question put: That the recommendation for appointment of Ms R Kalidaas, Ms E Z Tshabalala, Mr K T Bonakele, Mr V Mavuso, Ms N Mhlakaza, Mr R Lubisi, Prof B Khumalo, Prof M O Maguvhe, Mr K Naidoo, Dr A Tshidzumba, Ms N Gosa and Ms H Zinde as nonexecutive members of the SABC Board be approved.
DECLARATIONS OF VOTE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
Mr S E KHOLWANE
Declarations of Vote:
Ms M R SHINN (DA): Hon colleagues, today this House is poised to betray South African's right to freedom of expression, journalistic and creative independence through our public broadcaster. They are rights that are fundamental to the SABC Charter and enshrined in the Constitution. We are about to endorse the ANC's choice for the SABC Board. The ANC would not compromise on the list presented to the Portfolio Committee on Communications. It refused to consider any names offered by the opposition parties.
While the ANC list includes people who are competent and whom the opposition parties supported in the spirit of democratic negotiations, it does not represent the best choice of appropriate skills and experience that was available. Many experienced, appropriately skilled, vibrant and young South Africans offered to use their talents and commitment to good corporate governance to salvage the SABC. These people, for whom the opposition parties lobbied long and hard, were totally ignored by the ANC because they did not come with the nomination or endorsement of the leading faction in the ANC or its allies. Instead of acting in the best interest of our public broadcaster and the millions of people who listen to and watch the SABC's channels, the ANC has chosen people who will submit to the dictates of the skills-bereft executive management of the SABC and Luthuli House.
The new board, viewed as a collective, will not have the necessary political independence, knowledge and experience to confidently honour the obligations under the Companies Act, other laws and regulations under which the SABC operates. We doubt that they have the necessary experience to challenge the dictates of the SABC's management, should it embark on initiatives that threaten the broadcaster's financial sustainability, erode its asset base and compromise its integrity in news and programming.
Our argument does not concern the individuals on this list, but it concerns the ANC. It has put party affiliation above the requirements of the Broadcasting Act for the board to comprise a broad cross-section of South Africa's population and collectively to have qualifications and experience in the required fields. Most of the best available, appropriately skilled and experienced people that represent a broad range of committed South Africans are not on the ANC's list.
Today, this House is about to be party to abandoning the principles and values of the SABC Charter as a public broadcaster. We are about to hand over control of the SABC to the ANC. The SABC will become a state broadcaster, subject to the whims of a ruling faction of the ANC. The political interference that has increasingly brought the SABC into disrepute and disarray during the past 20 years is set to continue. The DA rejects the ANC's list for the SABC Board. [Applause.]
Ms D O CHILI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
Ms M R SHINN
Ms D O CHILI (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the nomination of the names presented to this House today in terms of complying with section 13(4)(a)(b)(c) and (d) of the Broadcasting Act. The above-mentioned names of candidates, whom we are recommending to this House today for appointment by the President, when viewed collectively, are persons who are suited to serve on the board by virtue of their qualifications, expertise and experience in broadcasting policy and technology; broadcasting regulations; media law; business practice and finance; marketing; journalism; entertainment; education; and social and labour issues. They are persons who are committed to fairness, freedom of expression, the right of the public to be informed, openness and accountability on the part of those holding public office. They represent a broad cross-section of the population of the Republic and are persons who are committed to the objects and principles as enunciated in the charter of the corporation.
Therefore, it is clear from the above that, in terms of the skills diversity needed from board members, the committee had a clear mandate to ensure that the above-mentioned criteria were met to the letter, and all political parties were in agreement to comply with the Broadcasting Act. I am surprised as to what they are saying today. I am confident that the nominated candidates cover all the skills and requisites that are spelt out in the Act. Unless the opposing parties identify a particular skills gap, the nominated candidates complement one another and will diversify the board as mandated. [Interjections.]
Like all other political parties, the ANC has the right to have internal processes that enable it to take consensual decisions based on the party position. In fact, on numerous occasions, the opposition parties requested to consult with party caucuses for the sake of clarity. I do not see why the ANC cannot be afforded the same privilege. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
Ms D O CHILI
Mrs J D KILIAN (COPE): Hon Deputy Speaker, just like before, the ANC in the portfolio committee showed that they cannot be trusted. They reneged on agreements. The difference this time was that they did not buckle under pressure from Luthuli House, but apparently received their orders from hon Blade Nzimande or Mr Jeremy Cronin. [Interjections.] The whole process of advertising, short-listing and interviewing of candidates for appointment to the SABC Board was a sham, with hundreds of thousands of rand in tax wasted on trooping the committee and eight staff members to Johannesburg.
Notwithstanding a decision to depoliticise the board and the selection process, the ANC again resorted to cadre deployment. The committee chair was extremely economical with the truth, accusing the opposition of throwing tantrums about a singular candidate. The truth is far from that. We reached an agreement on candidates, including proposed ANC candidates. But this past week they made a sudden about-turn and refused to accept their earlier nominations, replacing them with a rigid slate of politically aligned comrades. They refused point-blank to accept even one candidate supported exclusively by the opposition. [Interjections.]
There is no doubt that this list before us contains some good names, but the board lacks the collective skills, balance and independence to restore the credibility of the public broadcaster. Excellent candidates were rejected by the ANC. Blind loyalty and service in the ANC's higher echelons became the determining factor. The SABC will continue to remain in crisis. The truth is that the board and the management could not escape the factionalism prevalent in the ruling alliance during past years. If the Special Investigations Unit's latest audit disclaimer and scandals of news manipulation and governance irregularities under the Ngubane board did not shake the ANC into action to remove politics from the business of the SABC, then nothing will.
It is to be doubted whether the SABC could be salvaged as spectacularly as the Costa Concordia earlier this week. Treasury gave the previous SABC Board an initial lifeline and dictated the terms of the salvage operation, but the board did not control the salvage operation and it slipped back into deep water. The Costa Concordia, although damaged, will soon be ready to sail, but can the SABC be salvaged without the equivalent of a Nick Sloane engineering team? [Interjections.]
Cope wishes the board everything of the best. However, we believe their task will be much more difficult than the hauling of a stranded ship from the rocks. We do not need manipulated news bulletins, but we need an independent public broadcaster. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 313
Mrs J D KILIAN
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE (IFP): Hon Deputy Speaker, when we embarked on the process of appointing a new board, we had the opportunity of appointing a fully nonpartisan board. A new dawn seemed possible for the SABC. This is sorely needed, for another damning report by the Auditor-General had shown that the rot runs deep in our public broadcaster. To stop the rot, we had to find the very best talent for the board. Many of the people nominated today fit these criteria, but the fact remains that stronger candidates were left out in favour of weaker ones.
On this principle alone, I raise the IFP's objection with the board before us today. Sadly, at the last minute, the ruling party seemingly bowed to pressure to advance specific candidates and expertise took a back seat. How else does one explain the appointment of a senior manager in the office of the National Youth Development Agency? What exceptional skills made her the best in the pool? Is the fact that she is an ANC Youth League stalwart and married to an ANC Member of Parliament, over there, the overriding factor? [Interjections.] Only time will tell. More importantly, since we did not fully adhere to the sections of the Broadcasting Act which compels us to pick South Africans of a broad cross-section of the population, and we did not tick all the boxes ...
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, may I ask the hon member a question?
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: No, I'm not going to take your question.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I want to ask the hon member, how many ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She said that she is not going to take the question. That is what she said. Continue hon member.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: ... and more importantly, since we did not fully adhere to the sections of the Broadcasting Act which compels us to pick South Africans of a broad cross-section of the population and we did not tick all the boxes with regards to the fields from where they should be drawn, this possibly leaves the composition of this board open to legal scrutiny.
Let us at least thank the entire SABC parliamentary team. I am sorry that I cannot mention all of them today, but they are led by senior journalists such as Ms Isabelle de Taillefer, Ms Abra Barbier, Ms Mercedes Besent, Mr Lukhanyo Calata, Ms Lulama Matya, Ms Asanda Mbetshe, and others. These individuals do not comprise the new board, but they and their colleagues are the unsung heroes of the SABC. Theirs is a labour of love for an institution that is routinely labelled as a national embarrassment. They deserve better.
The IFP did not support all the names on the board, but their appointment is now a fait accompli. Therefore, in the spirit of how the IFP conducts its business, I would like to wish the board all the best. May they deliver to us an SABC that can deliver a service that would compel South Africans to pay their TV licences, and not leave them feeling that it is not the right thing to do. We urge them to put aside any personal and political preferences and dedicate themselves to rebuilding one of South Africa's national assets. It is now uncertain whether the SABC's sinking ship can be rescued, but on the basis of those members who hold South Africa's best interests at heart, may we live in hope. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N T GODI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 314
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
Mr N T GODI (APC): Deputy Speaker, comrades and hon members, out of more than 140 applicants, it is clear that if the APC had its preference it would have a different list. Therefore, to quibble about this or that name may not be a strategic issue at this point in time. Our main concern however is that those who are going to be recommended and appointed to the board must live up to their responsibility.
We are aware that the previous two boards did not finish their terms and it cannot be right that a third board equally not finish its term. They need to appreciate that they are getting to the SABC that had problems for quiet sometime and it is a process of trying to turn itself around. Their job should be to consolidate the momentum that is there and actually take the SABC to high levels. They are getting to the SABC that has just received a negative audit outcome from the Auditor-General. Their work is therefore shortened.
Therefore, the call of the APC is that members of the board must live up to their public responsibility and duty. The Minister of Communications and Parliament as well need to exercise their oversight over the board much rigorously than we have done before. With the slightest indication of problems in the board, Parliament and the Ministry must be able to step in to assist it avert a spectacle of disintegrating like the previous two boards. I thank you. [Applause.]
Question put: That the recommendation for appointment of Ms R Kalidaas, Ms E Z Tshabalala, Mr K T Bonakele, Mr V Mavuso, Ms N Mhlakaza, Mr R Lubisi, Prof B Khumalo, Prof M O Maguvhe, Mr K Naidoo, Dr A Tshidzumba, Ms N Gosa and Ms H Zinde as nonexecutive members of the SABC Board be approved.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[Take in from minutes.]
Question agreed to.
Ms R Kalidaas, Ms E Z Tshabalala, Mr K T Bonakele, Mr V Mavuso, Ms N Mhlakaza, Mr R Lubisi, Prof B Khumalo, Prof M O Maguvhe, Mr K Naidoo, Dr A Tshidzumba, Ms N Gosa and Ms H Zinde accordingly recommended for appointment as nonexecutive members of the SABC Board.
SECOND ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 315
FIRST ORDER
ELECTORAL AMENDMEND BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker and hon members, this Act gives effect to two Constitutional Court judgments, which are aimed at extending the opportunity to vote to categories of citizens who were previously excluded from casting their ballots. The two judgments are: The Minister of Home Affairs v National Institute for Crime Prevention and the Reintegration of Offenders, Nicro, and Others, a 2004 judgment, and Richter v Minister of Home Affairs and Others in 2009.
This Bill proposes a special voting dispensation for registered voters who will not be in their voting districts on the elections day. In terms of this Act, voters will be able to apply and cast a special vote prior to the elections day due to the usual reasons of physical infirmity. It also provides for security and election officials who will have a similar opportunity. Importantly, any voters who will be outside the voting district on the elections day will be in a position to apply and cast a special vote at their voting station on the special voting day.
In the 2009 case of Richter, the court held that all citizens who are outside of the republic must be given an opportunity to vote if they notify the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC, of their intention to vote at a mission where they intend to be on the voting day. Therefore, this Bill proposes a dispensation that will allow all South African citizens, regardless of where they reside, to vote. As I indicated, this extends and expands the opportunities for voters to participate in the political processes in South Africa.
In the last national and provincial elections, although approximately 20 000 voters notified the IEC of their intention to vote outside the republic, just over 9 000 actually availed themselves for this opportunity. The daily movement of South Africans in and out of the country for the period 1 September 2012 to 31 August 2013 was around 2,5 million for that entire period. If you were to divide that, you are looking at around 20 000 people on average per day.
It is evident that a substantial number of South Africans do go outside the country for a range of reasons and, certainly, this opportunity that is being created in terms of the legislation will assist these citizens who are going to be away from their voting districts on. Such persons can now either apply to cast a special vote on the special voting day before they leave South Africa or apply to cast a vote at a South African mission abroad on voting day. In order to give concrete meaning to the political space created by the Bill, the Electoral Commission is establishing an international segment to the voters' roll. This means that South Africans who live abroad do not need to travel home for the purposes of voter registration. It will now be possible to register as a voter at a mission of the republic.
This Bill provides that such citizens must present an identity document or card as part of the registration requirements but, in addition, they will also have to produce a South African passport. There are 125 missions of the republic across the world, and these missions employ around 800 officials who will be responsible for implementing the proposals in this Bill.
In 1999, the National Institute for Crime Prevention and the Reintegration of Offenders secured clarity from the Constitutional Court on the political rights of those who are incarcerated in correctional facilities for sentences that do not have the option of a fine. The IEC has since implemented the decision of the court by facilitating the voting processes for all offenders.
The process of amending the Electoral Act presented an opportunity to align the Act with the order of the Constitutional Court in that matter. It is perhaps opportune at this moment to remind the families and friends of those who are in our correctional centres to ensure that these persons, Minister Ndebele, have their identity documents in their possession as the IEC will undertake voter registration in prisons on a date which the commission is yet to announce. I am pleased to announce that our department is in dynamic contact with the Department of Correctional Services to ensure that inmates who qualify for citizenship are indeed issued with their identity documents.
In order to secure the credibility of the elections, it is exceedingly important that the voting process be open and transparent. In this respect, where voting or counting occurs in more than one room, each political party participating in the election will be entitled to two party agents for each room or a separate enclosed area. Win or lose, all participating political parties must be comfortable that the voting process was administered in terms of the law and the Constitution. The increase in the number of party agents is yet another opportunity to open the space for political parties to fully participate in the electoral process.
May I also add that the report of Census 2011 indicated that there were 31,4 million South Africans who are 18 years and above and thus eligible to participate in the electoral process by way of registering as voters and voting when elections are called. The national common voters' roll presently has only 23 million voters registered on it.
This House must surely be motivated to ensure that the registration percentage is increased significantly ahead of the next election. It is our collective and historic duty to ensure that the approximately eight million unregistered South Africans are sufficiently motivated to participate in the electoral process.
May I take the opportunity to thank the chairperson and all the commissioners of the IEC and members of staff for their excellent work and their continued dedication to the task of ensuring that our country is and remains an excellent example of a democracy at work. Thank you so much. [Applause.]
Mrs M M MAUNYE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 316
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mrs M M MAUNYE: House Chaiprerson, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, comrades and Members of Parliament, once again the two arms of our government, namely the legislature and the executive, are demonstrating the caring nature of our government. Allow me, therefore, to prompt you to recall that section 19(3) (a) of the 1996 Constitution of the Republic of South Africa states that, and I quote: "Every adult citizen has the right to vote in elections for any legislative body established in terms of the Constitution, and to do so in secret."
Through the Electoral Amendment Bill, we are sending a clear message to our people that we shall spare no effort in our endeavour to protect their rights to dignity and equality as entrenched in sections 10 and 19 of the Constitution.
In the same vein, we take notice of the wise words of the Constitutional Court in the 1999 case of August and Another v the Electoral Commission and Others when it said, and I quote: "The universality of the franchise is important not only for nationhood and democracy. The vote of each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of personhood."
Quite literally, it says that everybody counts. Our message today is that every South African counts and because of that it is our duty to ensure that as far as it is reasonably practical, all citizens are afforded the opportunity to wear their badges of dignity and personhood.
The Electoral Laws Amendment Act, Act 34 of 2003, which amended the Electoral Act 73 of 1998, had the effect of disenfranchising persons, sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a fine, by preventing them from registering as voters and also preventing them from voting whilst in correctional centres. However, unsentenced detainees and detainees incarcerated because of their failure to pay fines imposed on them retained their rights to register and vote.
In the 2003 case of Minister of Home Affairs v National Institute for Crime Prevention and the Rehabilitation of Offenders, Nigro, the Constitutional Court declared the provisions of the amendment Act of 2003 to be inconsistent with the Constitution and therefore invalid. In other words, the court found no justification in denying persons, sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a fine, the right to register and vote. The decision to extend the franchise to persons sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a fine is given effect by clause 4 of the Bill we are now commending to this august House.
Clause 4 amends section 8 of the principal Act to provide for the substitution of the provision that the chief electoral officer may not register a person as a voter if that person is serving a sentence of imprisonment without an option of a fine. Every citizen does indeed count and his or her perceived or real offending conduct is insufficient as a justification to deny him or her badge of dignity and personhood. The right to vote imposes an obligation upon the state not merely to refrain from interfering with the exercise of the right, but to take positive steps to ensure that it can be exercised.
The principal Act is based on the principle that voters must vote in the voting districts for which they are registered. I, however, would like to draw your attention to two exceptions to this general rule. The first is the procedure provided for in section 24(a) whereby a voter who cannot vote in his or her voting district on the polling day may, on that day, apply to the presiding officer at a voting station in another district for permission to vote in that district. If the person is seeking to vote outside the province in which he or she is registered, the presiding officer may permit the voter to vote in the national elections only. The second exception permits voters in circumstances where they will not be able to vote at a voting station in the voting district for which they are registered on the polling day, to apply for a special vote within the stipulated time which will permit them to vote before the polling day.
In the same vein, section 33 of the principal Act provides that a registered voter who is unable to vote in his or her district on the polling day, must be allowed a special vote if the inability to vote is due to temporary absence from the republic for purposes of a holiday, a business trip, attendance at a tertiary institution, an educational visit or participating in an international sports event.
In the 2009 case of Richter v the Minister of Home Affairs, the Constitutional Court found that section 33 excluded other voters, who were absent from the republic on the voting day, from participating in the elections. The court said, and I quote:
"It cannot be said, however, that requiring a voter to travel thousands of kilometers across the globe to be in their voting district on the voting day is exacting reasonable compliance from a voter."
The court concluded that the section is inconsistent with the Constitution and as a result ordered that the language of the section should be amended to make clear that special votes should be extend to any registered voter who will be absent from the Republic on the polling day and who gives notice within the prescribed time to the chief electoral officer.
It is from this background that I commend clause 6 of the Bill before the House, which substitutes section 33 of the Act, to provide for the commission to allow a person to apply for and cast a special vote prior to the election day, if that person cannot vote at a voting station in the voting district in which he or she is registered as a voter due to, amongst others, being absent from the republic.
It should be apparent to the hon members that the general principle that voters must vote in the voting district for which they are registered remains. It is also clear that the second exception now covers all registered voters who are absent from the country on the voting day. However, those who are absent from the country and those that are absent from their provinces, may not cast a provincial vote. Indeed every citizen counts.
We should bear in mind that the obligation of the government to take steps to ensure that the right to vote is exercised, should not be unreasonably burdensome on the government. I submit to you that since provincial votes would have to be counted in the voting stations where the voter was registered, transporting provincial votes casted abroad to more than 20 000 voting districts throughout the country would constitute a logistical burden on the commission.
I take this opportunity to encourage all South Africans to register to vote and to vote as provided for by the law. It remains our unshaken conviction that the vote of every citizen is a badge of dignity and personhood and we shall always endeavour to protect the rights to dignity and equality of all South Africans. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 317
Mrs M M MAUNYE
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chair, the right of every citizen to vote is one of the foremost rights for which the struggle against apartheid was fought. It is a right, which we believe is essential to uphold in its entirety.
Section 19 of the Constitution ensures that all citizens have the right to vote in elections for every and any legislative body. Presently, the Bill restricts the rights of some citizens to vote only on the National Assembly ballot. This unfairly limits the ability of citizens to exercise their rights. As such, this Bill is unconstitutional and cannot be supported.
Firstly, according to the Bill, South African citizens that are abroad are restricted from voting on the ballot for provincial legislatures. This is an unacceptable restriction on the rights accorded to them by the Constitution as citizens of the Republic. During committee deliberations, the DA argument was not accepted on the grounds that it was impractical, despite the fact that we offered very practical solutions to allow citizens abroad to register and vote on the provincial ballot.
Secondly, the current system and Electoral Amendment Bill restrict the ability of South African citizens who reside in the Republic from fully exercising their right to vote. While the Bill now provides for a special vote for citizens who will be absent from their voting districts on the day of elections, it still restricts citizens from casting their vote outside their province. The DA believes that there should be no restriction whatsoever on the ability of citizens to exercise their rights to vote, including voting from outside one's province. The DA thus believes that this is a major restriction on every citizen's Constitutional rights
In order to ensure that these rights were upheld in legislation, the DA's hon James Selfe introduced a Private Members Bill which, amongst others, aimed to ensure that all citizens, abroad and within the Republic would vote in both the National Assembly and provincial legislature elections, regardless of provincial boundaries. This Bill was rejected by the committee.
Undeterred, the DA attempted to uphold the rights of all South Africans by proposing amendments in the committee on the current Electoral Amendment Bill to ensure that all the citizens can fully exercise their right to vote. Again, these amendments were rejected.
The DA will now continue to fight in the courts to ensure that South Africa's elections are free, fair and allow all citizens full access to voting.
During the committee process, the commission itself conceded that this restriction on the rights of citizens is a problem, but described the issue as minute. As such, the ANC chose to ignore what everyone confesses as indeed being a problem. The Bill in its current form will not pass the test of constitutional muster.
The IEC and the ANC argue that with the low numbers of people who vote abroad and outside their home provinces, such a problem immaterial. This is simply not true. More importantly, this belies the very intention on which the Constitution was founded. It undermines the lives lost in the struggle to ensure that the right to vote was never again restricted. The DA will not stand back and allow our democracy to be weakened by this Bill. Therefore, the DA cannot support this Bill.
We urge the House to do the right thing and reject this Bill as unconstitutional and unacceptable in our democracy. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Mr G B D MC INTOSH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 317
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Mr Chairperson, this Bill is not perfect, but it has made changes which our courts have asked us to make through the famous Richter case. It is unfortunate that the DA seems to think that it can hold pistols to the heads of the committee in this Parliament, by threatening it with legal action. [Interjections.]
There are huge problems about provincial votes. You would probably want to go and observe what happens to people who vote internationally from other countries in the world; it is essential voting for the national vote. And the problems and the practicalities of giving people provincial votes at this stage are extremely difficult.
The DA does have to come and try to say that it will go to court. The hon Selfe's Bill was brought to this House. He would not even sit here during the debate on the Bill because he was so embarrassed by the hon De Freitas and his caucus's unhappiness with that Bill. Now does he come and holds it out as the law of the myths and the peasants. [Interjections.]
The politicians are already getting ready for the elections. I do not know what meetings the ANC in this Parliament had yesterday and today. But one can see that they are quite excited because one gets the mood of it. I suspect that they are busy working out their lists about who is going to stay and who is going to leave this Parliament. [Laughter.] That is what politics is about and you know that is why we pushed this Bill through so quickly.
I must complement Mrs Maggie Maunye, our chairlady and also our select committee because we want this Bill. The commission needs to pass regulations and it has to go through the National Council of Provinces. Politicians know that there are elections in April or May next year. So, we are very keen to get this Bill.
People have already mentioned the important parts of the Bill and why it is here. It is a short Bill; it is a technical Bill. I want to make one plea and it concerns section 2 where it says if you vote overseas, you must have your passport and your ID document. You know Mr Chairperson, often when people go overseas, they do not take their ID documents with, but always take their passports with. The passport has their ID number on it. So, it is very easy in our mission to simply check the website of the IEC; it can be picked up if the person is registered, etc.
I would like to suggest that having an ID is not mandatory, but having a South African passport is mandatory. You know the electoral commission as we would say in IsiZulu ...
IsiZulu:
Igugu lethu.
English:
It is our darling; it is our sweetheart. It is our favourite organisation for us as politicians. I do not think we should do anything to undermine it.
I want to express my concern at hon Hlengwa's statements, which he made earlier this afternoon. I do not think we must do things to undermine the IEC. We also need ... [Applause.] ... to recognise it; in fact it is recognised in this Bill.
I think all of us have been at hot, excited polling stations. Sometimes in rural schools, more than one classroom is used and it all gets very exciting and pressured. If you come from KwaZulu-Natal where I come from, my experience is that during elections, things can get quite hot. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Sihlalo, ngicela ukubuza ukuthi umhlonishwa lo okhulumayo uyawazi yini amaganu? [Uhleko.]
Mr G B D MC INTOSH: Mr Chairperson, I expected to continue. [Laughter.] The point is that in clause 10 of this Bill, the right is created to appoint party political observers at the polling station, not simply in one of the classrooms or tents, or whatever it is. You can appoint more party agents to keep an eye on what is going on. I think that reflects the sensitivity about the areas which can have areas of conflict. On behalf of Cope, I would like to say we will support this legislation. [Applause.]
Ms H N MAKHUBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 319
Mr G B D MC INTOSH
Ms H N MAKHUBA: Hon Chair, Deputy President, the IFP welcomes and supports the Electoral Amendment Bill. [Applause.]
Given the great importance of the upcoming 2014 national elections, the current fluid geopolitical landscape and the entry into the political arena of certain new political parties, it is of utmost importance that we have the necessary legislation in place to ensure a smooth transit to our fifth political dispensation.
The IFP supports the right of South Africans residing outside the country to vote, given that they are able to produce both an identity document and a valid passport. Registration to vote must, however, be in person not by proxy, and these voters should only vote nationally as voting on a provincial basis would, at this state, be logistically unfeasible.
We further agree that prisoners serving sentences be taken as registered in whichever areas their remand detention facilities are situated as it will be logistically impossible to attempt to register such prisoners in each of their respective residential areas.
We have also noted other clauses included in these amendments, which are to effect technical amendments to the Bill.
IsiZulu:
Ngithanda ukuthi kuyilungelo lawo wonke umuntu ongowokuzalwa eNingizimu Afrika ukuba alisebenzisa ithuba alinikwayo lokuvota ngoba lokho kusho ukuba nezwi kukho konke okwenzekayo eNingizimu Afrika.
Ukuze uhlelo lokhetho luqhubeke kahle kufanele kube khona imthetho ebekwayo ezoqiniseka ukuthi konke kuhamba kahle. Siyakweseka ukuthi laba abazoba nezindlela abazozithatha ngalolu suku bakwazi ukufaka isicelo sokuthi bakwazi ukuvota lapho bebhalise khona ngaphambi kokuthatha uhambo. Lokhu kuzokwenzelwa abakhubazekile, abadala abagulayo, abakhulelwe kanti kuzokwenziwa ngevoti eliyisipesheli elicelwa kwikhomishini.
Okunye, siyakwamukela ukubhekelwa kwalezo zikhungo ezisebenzisa izikole lapho kwenzeka khona ukuthi kusetshenziswe amagumbi okufundela amabili ngenxa yobuningi babavoti esikoleni esisodwa.
Siyakwamukela ukuthi kube khona ama-ejenti amele iqembu [party agents] amabili egumbini lokusebenza ngalinye.
English:
The IFP supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr C P MULDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 319
Ms H N MAKHUBA
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, colleagues, today is a rather historical day and I hope that the former member, the hon Patrick Chauke, who is out there in North West is watching the parliamentary channel today because he was the chairperson of the Home Affairs Committee when the ANC very strongly opposed the contents of the Bill that is before us today. So, we have been campaigning for this for quite some time and, in the end, we are back here today where Parliament is now going to agree to the proposals in this Bill.
There is a young man called Henri Le Riche, working abroad, in London, who started the campaign to allow South Africans abroad to vote. Obviously, many others also supported this cause, but in the end, here we are and are going to amend the Electoral Bill to make this possible. I think it is very possible and a very good step in the interest of all South African citizens who are abroad and cannot vote.
I am not going into the technical issues of this Bill because they has been stipulated by the other members and the chairperson of the committee.
However, I find it rather strange that the DA is opposing this Bill. The first point is that the members of the DA in that committee did not oppose this when we voted on this Bill in the committee; they did not do that! So here today, I understand the DA is now going to oppose this Bill. The problem is this ... read the Richter case; the Constitutional Court case!
I want to say to the DA that you know very well that it is not going to happen that people will also have a provincial vote when they are abroad. You know this! But what you are doing is being absolutely, extremely opportunistic! [Interjections.] [Applause.] You want to play for votes to try and create an impression out there for South Africa that the DA is the only party fighting for their rights. But you know that you are not going to succeed. Once in your lives, be responsible and tell the electorate out there the truth. [Applause.] And, you know that it is not going to happen.
Last but not least, I want to say to the chairperson of the committee, thank you very much for the way in which you have conducted the business of the committee. I think we have done well for the South Africans abroad in this respect today. I only hope that the DA will come to its senses. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M W THRING
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 320
Dr C P MULDER
Mr M W THRING: Hon Chair, the ACDP commends the IEC, which has run both the general and municipal elections with fairly great competence, resulting in worldwide acclaim and requests for assistance from other countries. The ACDP believes that the IEC will certainly be able to provide similar high standards of national and provincial elections in 2014, notwithstanding the issues highlighted in the Public Protector's report on certain procurements issues within the IEC which are subjects of deliberations by an ad hoc committee of this House.
The Electoral Amendment Bill seeks largely to improve inclusivity and legitimacy in the electoral process. The ACDP supports the amendments to section 33 that will enable all registered voters who are outside the country to exercise their voting rights. A more contentious issue relates to allowing registered citizens abroad the right to vote for provincial legislatures. The Constitutional Court in the Richter v Minister of Home Affairs and Others decision, did not pronounce that registered voters abroad may vote for provincial legislatures. If one, however, accepts the principle that we are allowing citizens living abroad the right to influence the balance of representation in the National Assembly, then surely they should be able to exert the same influence in provincial legislatures, because such voters must be registered first. It would be a relatively simple matter to establish in which provinces they were resident before they left the country. [Interjections.]
The ACDP believes that there is more than sufficient time between now and the 2014 general election for the appropriate arrangements to be made to enable voters outside the country to vote for provincial legislatures. The ACDP appreciates that this issue is now before the Western Cape High Court for decision, but the ACDP believes that it should first have been decided on in the portfolio committee and Parliament before the court route was chosen.
According to the ACDP, the court challenge brought by the DA appears to be premature, as Parliament has not yet concluded its legislature function on the Bill. It may have been preferable to have had these proposals tabled first and then debated in the portfolio committee and Parliament before launching the High Court application. The ACDP also appreciates the amendments relating to the prisoners' voting rights as a result of the Constitutional Court's decision in the Minister of Home Affairs v National Institute for Crime Prevention and the Re-Integration of Offenders and Others. While we have our reservations about the convicted prisoners having the right to vote, the ACDP respects the decision of the Constitutional Court in this regard. While the ACDP has its reservations on the noninclusion of the provision for ballot for expatriates, we will however support the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M MNQASELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 320
Mr M W THRING
Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, the Leader of the Official Opposition, this is an important piece of legislation ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M MNQASELA: This is a piece of legislation that puts before us the responsibility to ensure that all citizens of our country – black and white, young and old, local and abroad – participate in strengthening our hard-fought democracy. This Bill falls short in addressing the crucial issue of the principle of one person, one vote, because South Africans who will find themselves elsewhere outside their voting districts will not enjoy their right to free franchise. This undermines democracy and puts our country on the back foot.
We need the votes to ensure that everybody enjoys one provincial vote and one national vote. What is difficult in ensuring that this happens? [Applause.] We have explored every way possible to ensure that ...
IsiXhosa:
... siyaxoxa ngale nto kwikomiti kwaye i-ANC ibivumelana nathi ekomitini. [Uwele-wele.] Eminye imibutho ayiyi nokuya ekomitini kodwa ilapha ize kuxoxa apha. Abanye bafika mva kwexesha ekomitini, bahlala nje imizuzu emibini baphinde babaleke, kodwa namhlanje baxoxa nathi apha. Sifuna ukuqinisekisa ukuba la majoni siwathumela kula mazwe ayakwazi ukuvotela iphondo kunye nozwelonke. Kukwafuneka nokuba siqinisekise ukuba aba bantwana nibathumela ukuba bafunde emazweni, kwiindawo ngeendawo nabantu abaya kusebenza bengoosomashishini nabo bayakwazi ukuvotela iphondo nozwelonke. [Uwele-wele.] Abongikazi abajikeleza lonke eli lizwe kuba i-ANC ingakwazi ukuza neemeko zengqesho ezisisiseko nezifanelekileyo nabo kufuneka bakwazi ukuvotela iphondo nozwelonke. [Uwele-wele.]
English:
Now, where is the nation-building of the ANC? Where is the patriotism of the ANC? [Interjections.] It is clear that this is another ANC. It is not the same ANC that fought for freedom in this country. We need a different regime in South Africa. [Interjections.] We need a new government; and you will see it next year. [Interjections.] You will see that government in Tlokwe Local Municipality, Madam Minister of Social Development. [Interjections.] That government is already in the Western Cape. That government will be in Gauteng in 2014. [Interjections.] It is clear that the ANC does not want this country to grow; hence, today we say that South Africa deserves better, and we cannot and we will not accept this Bill.
IsiXhosa:
Sithi thina abantu kuqala. Kuqala abantu. Qina mhlali, qina! Qina mhlali, qina! Uza kuthi shuuu, Sunduza! [Uwele-wele.] Into esiyifunayo kukuqinisekisa ukuba wonke umntu okweli lizwe ufumana ilungelo lakhe lokuvota engangcikivwa ngokuba esuke wandwendwela eSomalia, China okanye eNgilane.
English:
They must enjoy the right to vote, Minister. In conclusion, I need to say that the DA will prove you wrong next year. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Adv A H GAUM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 321
Mr M MNQASELA
Adv A H GAUM: Chairperson, I just heard the hon Mnqasela saying the DA will be the new government. Sir, it will be the new government in your dreams. [Applause.] I just want to point out that a small error has been made on the cover of this Bill. As agreed to by the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs in the National Assembly, the words should read as amended by that portfolio committee. The committee section has corrected this error and the corrected version of the Bill has already been distributed.
The Electoral Amendment Bill captures judgements of the Constitutional Court and legislation. In the Richter case, the Constitutional Court decided that South African citizens, who are ordinarily residents outside South Africa, should be allowed to vote. The court did not rule that this right to vote should include a provincial vote.
In the National Institute for Crime Prevention and Re-Integration of Offenders, Nicro, case, the court ruled that all prisoners have the right to vote, independent of the nature of their sentences. As it could be seen today, all political parties, except the DA, support this Bill. Not long ago, the DA's hon James Selfe, I am glad to see him here today, tabled the Private Member's Bill that mirrored the DA's position today, arguing that citizens living abroad and those who are absent from their provinces on the voting day, be allowed to vote in both the national and provincial elections.
After thanking the hon member for his initiative, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, including the DA, rejected this Bill unanimously - a Bill sponsored by the DA's own national chairperson. Maybe today the hon Selfe can tell us why he was absent from this House when the committee's report in this regard was considered. When the committee approved the Bill before this House two days ago, as hon Mulder has pointed out, the DA did not object to any clause contained in the Bill.
It does appear to me that the DA is in disarray, at least its home affairs component. Whilst its voting patterns in the committee are confusing when compared to its positions or those of some of them at least, they simultaneously lodged a court challenge against the Bill of Parliament at the time when we have not even considered public submissions.
In lodging this application so prematurely, the DA did not only undermine Parliament and its processes, but also one of the cornerstones of our democracy - the separation of powers. Effectively, they are asking the court to ignore Parliament and its constitutional mandate by making a law on behalf of Parliament. That is untenable and unacceptable.
Parliament reflects the democratic will of the people. Its constitutional mandate, and manifestly not that of the courts, is to make the laws of the land. To appeal to the courts to usurp this role of Parliament is inherently unconstitutional and undemocratic. Maybe a true democrat such as the hon Dean Smuts, whom I am seeing here today, can explain to us whether she is prepared to justify this conduct from some of her party members.
Section 19 of the Constitution affords the right to vote and the right to free and fair elections to every South African citizen. The hon De Freitas seems to ignore the second very important right included in section 19 of the Constitution – the right to free and fair elections. Both of these rights are sacred rights; so much more given our troubled history when the majority of South Africans were denied this basic right to vote. We have the duty to advance, protect and defend both these rights.
Every citizen's right to vote goes hand in glove with every citizen's right to free and fair elections. The Constitutional Court found that the right to vote is indispensable and empty without the right to free and fair elections. Hon De Freitas, to overemphasise the right to vote, and underemphasise the credibility, integrity, freeness and fairness of our overall electoral process would be wrong and unconstitutional.
Why are we denying a provincial vote for citizens and ordinarily residents who are abroad and those who are outside of their provinces on voting day. Central to our electoral scheme, for purposes of municipal and provincial elections, is the ordinary residence. One registers in a voting district where one is an ordinary resident. This determines the municipal ward elections that you may participate in and the provincial election that you may participate in.
Put differently, the voting district connects a voter to a ward, municipality, province and country. In the elections, you participate by voting at the voting station in the voting district where you are registered. It is also here in the voting district where votes are counted. Provincial ballot papers are counted in the province where the votes have been cast, in line with the principle that voters in the province must elect their provincial representatives and not those voting in a different province.
Central to voting outside one's province, whether in another province or abroad, is a principle of citizenship. You are allowed to cast a vote in elections for the NA on the basis of your South African citizenship.
In the case of citizens ordinarily resident abroad, there is no direct nexus or connection with the specific province. To suggest that the last address in South Africa, for a citizen living abroad, constitutes a nexus between that citizen and a particular province, as the DA has suggested in the portfolio committee, is somewhat far fetched. Without the proper connection or nexus between a citizen living abroad and a province, there is no basis to allow such a person to vote in the provincial elections.
In addition, hon De Freitas and hon Mnqasela, it would constitute a logistical nightmare having to transport provincial ballot papers from abroad or elsewhere in Africa, to the provinces where they would be counted. For this purpose, the IEC will have to rely on external institutions such as courier and postal services to put the transportation of ballot papers that are beyond the its control. This is a very important point – beyond their control. This may place the integrity of the voter's roll, the creditability, legitimacy, freeness and fairness of our elections in jeopardy. Is that what you want? Some of you seem to want that.
In an endeavour to further the citizen's right to vote in provincial elections, even though they are outside the province on the election day, we have included the right to exercise a special vote in the Bill - in the voting district - before leaving their provinces or for abroad. This will happen on a special voting day. We have indeed walked an extra mile on this matter.
The DA or some of them, because I am not sure what the positions for all of them are these days, seem to want us to run the real risks that have been outlined - those that may undermine citizens' constitutional rights to free and fair elections, which may in turn leave their right to vote empty, as highlighted by the Constitutional Court.
We have more than 22 000 voting stations in South Africa. In 2009, more than 1,5 million citizens casted national votes in provinces other than those of their ordinary residence. If we were now to allow this, most likely more than 1,5 million of them this time around, to also cast provincial votes and have these ballot papers transported back to their provinces to be counted, the IEC will loose control over potentially millions of ballot papers when they are transported.
As the ANC and other political parties here today, do we want to put our elections at risk like the DA? Certainly not! Do we want to jeopardise our excellent record of free and fair elections that the DA seem to be totally carefree about? No! [Laughter.]
The hon De Freitas pretended to have easy solutions on these matters. He indicated earlier that he offered some practical and easy solutions. He told the committee that his solutions were old news in other countries. However, he did not tell us that in Australia, one is not allowed to vote in state election if one is outside Australia on a voting day; or if you are a citizen living abroad for precisely the same reasons we are advancing. Hon Leader of the Opposition, he did not tell us about Angola, Belgium, Botswana, Germany, India, United Kingdom, Canada and many other countries with similar arrangements; where only national votes are allowed.
Hon Leader of the Opposition, I can provide you with a list. He offered no solution pertaining to the risky transportation of ballot papers from other provinces to a person's home province to be counted. He offered no solution because he has none. He placed what he perceived to be the DA's interest before those of South Africa.
The ANC is determined to advance the citizens' right to vote within the framework of what is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society. However, we will also protect and advance the right of every citizen to free and fair elections, protecting the legitimacy of the electoral process and the integrity of its cornerstone – the voters' roll. As the South African government, that is our patriotic duty and responsibility. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 322
Mr A H GAUM
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I see there is no time for me on the clock.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You have two minutes.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. I just have a few brief responses. Firstly, I just want to explain to the hon Mc Intosh that the voters' roll will have two segments. The first would be for South Africans who reside in South Africa and the second segment would be for those South African citizens who ordinarily do not reside in South Africa.
It is the citizens who live abroad who will be able to register for the elections at the missions of the South African Republic abroad. It is only this category that would be required to have an identity document and a passport to register. It is not the situation as the hon member has alluded to where people travel abroad, but are ordinarily residents in the Republic.
Just to repeat the point that the hon Guam and others have made. We have approximately 22 000 polling stations in and around the country with about 23 million voters. Clearly, if one allows every voter who is outside their province to vote on the provincial ballot, the logistics of this exercise is absolutely a nightmare. There will be huge prospects for mistakes of having ballots getting lost in the post. Why on earth would we take something which is not broken and try to break it? [Interjections.]
For your information hon member, we are in the business of running legitimate elections. If you would allow citizens who live abroad and have not lived here for many years to vote and to choose a provincial legislature that they wish to vote in, this could create huge opportunities for political parties to fiddle the outcomes of provincial elections. Let us be honest about it. [Applause.]
It is an open secret that the DA intends asking all of its supporters who reside overseas to vote on the Gauteng ballot. Plainy speaking; this is called vote rigging! Not in this country! [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time. (Democratic Alliance dissenting.).
Bill accordingly read second time.
THIRD ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 322
SECOND ORDER
DEEDS REGISTRIES AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson and hon members, the introduction of this amending Bill must be seen against the broader transformation programme that the ANC envisages in dealing with land and its registration, and the application of property rights. How these lands are administered and what legislative prescripts should be in place to deal with disputes, is addressed in the amendment before us today. What is required is a consistent and coherent legislation transformation tool that will both address the constitutional requirements and the policy objective of the ANC-led government.
In doing this, the need to transform historical systems that were designed under the previous political regime, whose ideological and philosophical orientation does not reflect the building of a national democratic society, means that there is a range of structural systematic and process matters that require major transformation. This is the truth of the amending Bill.
The process of administering systems, whose designs do not reflect the values of the new South Africa, has brought with it the need for specific changes to existing legislation. Coupled with this, is the campaign of the ANC to rule out corruption where we find it within any given system of government. This means in particular that, when dealing with matters of property, property rights and its regulation, we have to ensure that we have the requisite legislation and regulations that will inculcate the values that we are trying to espouse in our society.
This means that legislation will become one of the first areas we need to visit in order to strengthen our systems and instil a culture that is commensurate with the national democratic society that we are building. The need to transform historical systems that were designed under the previous political regimes, whose ideological and philosophical orientation do not reflect the building of a national democratic society, means that there is a range of structural, systematic and process matters that require major transformation.
The Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 10B – 2013] thus proposes certain amendments to the Deeds Registries Act 47 of 1937, to improve the application and implementation of the Act. Section 4(1) (b) of the Act provides for the rectification of an error in the name of a person or description of a property mentioned in this document. The proposed amendment aims to afford the registrar of deeds to use discretion with regard to the lodgement, or not, of all the relevant deeds documents.
Section 38 of the Act provides for the issuing of certificates for registered titles to substitute lost or destroyed title deeds. The proposed amendment also seeks to also provide for the issuing of the certificates of registered titles in instances where title deeds become incomplete or unserviceable.
Section 44(1) of the Act refers the Land Survey Act 9 of 1927 which was repealed by the Land Survey Act 8 of 1997. A proposed amendment seeks to reflect a reference to the correct Land Survey Act.
The heading to section 48 of the Act still refers to Rand Township and is outdated. The substitution of the heading is necessary to provide legal certainty with regard to which deeds registry has jurisdiction for the purpose of section 48. This is especially necessary since there are two deeds registries located within the Gauteng province.
A section of the Act makes reference to liquidators or trustees appointed under the Agricultural Credit Act 28 of 1966 which has repealed the Agricultural Debt Management Act 45 of 2001. The proposed amendment aims to rectify the situation.
Section 93(1)(c) deals with the upgrading of title deeds in respect of the change of surnames of women. The proposed amendment which provides for double-barrel surnames is necessary in order to bring it in line with section 26 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 51 of 1992.
The amendment of the definition of Deeds Registry, proposed in clause 7 of the Bill, is consequential to the promulgation of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act 28 of 2002, which provides for the discontinuation of the registration of mineral rights in a deeds registry.
In conclusion, the amendment assists in addressing the broader transformation programme of the ANC government, what it envisages in dealing with fixed property, its registration and property rights, and how this is administered. Thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
FOURTH ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 323
THIRD ORDER
SECTIONAL TITLES AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading Debate)
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, as the legislative arm of the state, we have the responsibility to ensure that the deepening of economic transformation results in tangible changes in ordinary working people's lives. An integral part of the second phase of our transition from apartheid to a national democratic society, is a need to accelerate growth and intensify our programme of economic transformation.
Therefore, in passing legislations, we have the responsibility to present before this House the contents of a draft legislation that addresses the spirit and intention of economic transformation. The historic task of dealing with the economy, poverty and inequality means that each opportunity of bringing amendments to principal Acts offers us the opportunity to change people's lives through the amendments that we are tabling.
The national democratic society that we are busy constructing must be a reflection of the quality of content of the legislation we pass. Home ownership reflects an improved standard of living for ordinary people and the improvement of the people through the economic and social strata. The home, culturally and traditionally, holds a very significant value to a family. It is more than just an asset which cannot be determined in monetary terms.
Sectional title ownership has emerged globally as one of the solutions to an increased need for urban housing against the backdrop of population growth and the demographic trends towards urbanisation. One of the main advantages of the sectional title format of home-ownership is the provision of true ownership of housing with all its social and economic benefits to more people at an affordable cost.
Where the suitability of the sectional title format to provide housing in an urban environment has been proven, there are certain requirements which, if not met, will inevitably result in the loss of value for homeowners. Sectional title schemes require proper management. Appropriate legislation is necessary to prevent the failure of schemes which will inevitably lead to owners losing everything. The principal Act has historically addressed these matters, but changing circumstances dictate that legislation be updated and amended. That is the purpose of the sectional titles amending Bill.
There has been uncertainty with respect to architects that are qualified to sign certificates that state a proposed division into sections and common property is not contrary to any operative town planning scheme or statutory plans that may affect the development. The proposed amendment provides clarity in this regard. It also amends the definition of land surveyor in clause 1(c) of the Bill which seeks to clarify which land surveyors may sign a section 7(2)(a) certificate, and intends to reflect the correct short title of the Professional and Technical Surveyors' Act, Act 40 of 1984.
The current definition of a developer provides for the inclusion of an agent or his or her successor in title to act on behalf of a developer. However, the definition does not include the developer's agent or his or her successor in title in respect of the approval of development schemes as contemplated in the Act. The proposed amendment provides for such inclusions.
Section 15(b) of the Act provides for issuing of a certificate of registered sectional title in respect of a fraction of an undivided share of a section. The need has been identified to also include provisions in respect of the application by the owner of a section, and the lodgement and endorsement of the relevant bonds and title deeds. Therefore, clause 4 of the Bill proposes the addition of new subsections to section 15(b).
In conclusion, the amending Bill assists those who are committed and those who will be becoming sectional titles owners. I thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
FIFTH ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 323
FOURTH ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY ON NATIONAL CREDIT AMENDMENT BILL
Ms J L FUBBS: Mr Chairman, hon members of this House, this is a Bill which I think made history here, because it was the first Private Member's Bill to be treated in a different manner. Of course, we accorded it that interest and focus ensuring, in fact, that all the stakeholders were contacted. In fact, we leaned so far backwards to ensure that it was accorded the same, if not better, treatment of process and procedure that other Bills brought to Parliament were from a committee or a Minister. Despite the hon Oriani-Ambrosini being an hour late due to forgetting that his Bill was due to be before the committee after the two weeks' notice and reminders, we nevertheless accorded him the time to brief us.
On 31 January this year, he was of course profusely grateful on the matter. We treated him and the Bill with all the processes and procedures that would be demanded of a portfolio committee.
You may now ask why it took us so long to bring it here. Well, the ANC is, of course, a caring government. [Laughter.] It is a very caring government, and that is an acknowledgement from the hon Oriani-Ambrosini. That is why I am saying that.
When he did not return for the final process one day, we heard that he had flu. We rescheduled the Bill and learnt that he was in hospital. We rescheduled it when we learnt that he was coming out of hospital, but it was unfortunate that only in a letter to me, I learnt from him that his was a terminal illness. And I am sure the House and everyone else wished him well during this particular part of his life.
Having said that, the main issues within the Bill, which were later rejected by the committee, were that there were two clauses and, on his own acknowledgment, the first clause was not the clause that needed to be focused on. In fact, he conceded that he would give way on that one. A number of stakeholders pointed out that they had challenges. I am not talking about, if you like, those within the fraternity that are card carrying members of the ANC, but the financial community, the business community and many others. He also said that the second one, the suspension of interest, which incidentally already existed and that some credit providers were already offering, would, in fact, lead to prolonged debt review. So, you would suspend the interest and have the prolonged debt review, but in the end, after five years, you would still have to pay it. You were merely putting off that final day. Another is that the relationship and the point made in terms of the accumulation of interest, credit fees and charges beyond the balance of the unpaid debt is already in the National Credit Act, Act 34 of 2005.
Having said that, in 2010, the committee had communicated with the Minister with the concern that the National Credit Act was not where we wanted it to be and that the National Credit Regulator needed to be reviewed, and this Act amended, so that we could seriously tackle some of the flaws. This has been done. Yes, it was done this year. The Act is now here, and we are going to be dealing with it. May I add that it was unanimous in the committee, although people in this House will say it was not? We do not want piecemeal; we want a comprehensive piece of legislation that will deal effectively with a very serious issue and not something that would just single out one point which would address ... [Interjections.] No! May I say that the ANC, amongst others, totally supports the refusal or the rejection of the Private Members' Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Congress of the People and African National Congress.
DECLARATIONS OF VOTE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 323
FIFTH ORDER
Declarations of vote:
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS (DA): House Chairperson, this Private Member's Bill is PMB 1 – 2012, and that stands as a testament to the invaluable efforts of hon Oriani-Ambosini to assert the constitutional rights of all members to introduce legislation in this House and to have that legislation properly and seriously considered. Our thoughts continue to be with the hon Oriani-Ambrosini in the struggle he is currently waging.
In the past, Private Members' Bills were cut off at the pass by an intransigent ANC majority not interested in seeing any good ideas emanating from outside its own ranks. Whenever a Private Member's Bill was too obviously sensible and positive that it could not be simply blocked, the argument was usually made that similar and more comprehensive legislation was imminent from the executive and so, therefore, we should rather wait for that legislation. Sometimes it could be years before that legislation could come to the House, as with the National Lotteries legislation which the DA proposed in 2009 and came to this House earlier this year.
However, the courts have now underscored the constitutional principle that all members can and should influence a legislative agenda at any time they like and irrespective of what other legislation is being prepared elsewhere in the government, hence, this very first Private Member's Bill submitted by the hon Oriani- Ambrosini under the new rules.
At the time that this Bill was submitted, there was no comprehensive amendment to the National Credit Act on the table from the Department of Trade and Industry. Indeed, the department told us in the committee that such legislation would still take several months before they could present it. Therefore, it is a victory for opposition oversight that after seeing this Bill, the department was able to produce a broader Amendment Bill in a matter of weeks, not months. But the argument must never be used, as it was by the ANC in this committee and in the case of this Bill, that we should not proceed with piecemeal improvements to legislation, because compressive legislation from the executive is imminent. This was the argument that was used to block Private Members' Bills under the old rules, and it seems that it is being used anew to block Private Members' Bills under the new rules. We will not stand for that. The fact is that piecemeal improvements to legislation are perfectly acceptable, and we do not need to have comprehensive legislation from the executive before this House can move. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M HLENGWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 324
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS
Mr M HLENGWA (IFP): House Chairperson, hon Deputy President and hon members, this report marks a huge missed opportunity for our Parliament in our democracy. After two years of intense litigation, the hon Mario Oriani-Ambrosini regained for all of us our constitutional right to introduce legislation. At the court, the legislation was the very Bill which this report rejects as being undesirable, to the simple Bill with two simple provisions, which the report itself indicates to be in fact desirable.
The argument for rejecting the Bill is that of waiting for government to propose to Parliament a comprehensive overhaul of the principal Act, which will incorporate the amendments proposed by the hon Mario Oriani-Ambrosini. The report explicitly states that the Minister will introduce such Bill by the end of this year and makes this the sole reason for rejecting Ambrosini's Bill.
This is tantamount to Parliament rejecting its own power of legislative initiative. We have missed the opportunity to fix a few aspect of the Principal Act, of which all submissions received by the committee indicated that it had to be fixed. Throughout the deliberations in the committee, it was very clear that the hon Ambrosini's Bill was desirable, necessary and timely. Yet, today, we are called upon to resolve that it is undesirable because we believe that the executive should do the work of Parliament.
In what was a historic occasion, Parliament relinquished the opportunity to do the job it is called upon to perform by the Constitution, which is that of legislating. Today, we are making the point that this Parliament is not willing or competent or capable of fixing problems with legislation where it seems to be, unless it receives the green light to do so from the executive.
The Ambrosini Bill should have been an opportunity to reverse the decades of parliamentary impotence, intolerance, and subordination to assert the centrality and primacy of Parliament in lawmaking. We have lost this opportunity because the ANC has yet again given proof that it does not understand parliamentary democracy, and will not allow Members of this Parliament to bring democracy to life. Instead, it wishes Members of this Parliament to wait for the dictates of their leaders, Cabinet and party structures, which keep our democracy at the stage of poor form of exercise far distant from what our Constitution has envisaged.
On that note, I think I speak for everybody when I once again wish the hon Ambrosini a speedy recovery, and we pray that the good Lord will indeed grant him that. I am sure that the hon Minister Molewa as she howls also agrees.
Mr G B D MC INTOSH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 324
Mr M HLENGWA
Mr G B D MC INTOSH (COPE): Chairperson, you know the point has been made about the Private Members' Bill. I think one thing that we have learnt in this first Bill that has come through is that people at the Table, the committee and the legal advisors of Parliament are all on a learning curve. I think it is to their credit that they have enabled this first Bill to reach its final conclusion.
The other points around the Bill regarding the new National Credit Act that has come through have all been made by colleagues in previous speeches. However, what I think one must recall is that after Dr Mario Oriani-Ambrosini overslept or missed his meeting for one hour, he was so embarrassed and he apologised that he stood and offered all the members of the committee lunch at the Mount Nelson Hotel. I then said well, I think he should use his Cadillac to drive the chairlady of the Portfolio Committee of Trade and Industry. I must say, as a good communist, she looked very comfortable in that Cadillac. [Laughter.] So, we had that interesting human side before us.
However, we have two other Bills, one of which has also gone through and the one that the hon James Selfe proposed on the Electoral Amendment Act. Of course, there is a very important Bill coming from the hon James on indigenous knowledge and intellectual property - a sui generis Bill. Now, we would have dealt with three Members' Bills. However, I do believe that this has been an important Bill. Our whole parliamentary system owes a debt of gratitude to Dr Oriani-Ambrosini.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order, hon member?
Mrs S V KALYAN: My point of order is the uncharitable comment made by Minister Molewa in which when the member from the IFP wished the hon Ambrosini recovery, hon Molewa said he should not recover. I think that we should all maintain decorum and be charitable towards each other in this House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member that is not a point of order. However, we will request all the hon members to maintain the decorum of the House. Hon member, you may proceed. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr B A RADEBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 19 September 2013 Take: 324
Mr G B D MC INTOSH
Mr B A RADEBE (ANC): Chairperson, Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, members of the executive and members of this august House, the ANC joins all the people of South Africa in wishing the hon Oriani-Ambrosini a speedy recovery from his health challenges. [Interjections.] That is the position of the ANC. That is why the chairperson also wished him a speedy recovery.
The National Credit Act is the best shield which protects the vulnerable consumers of South Africa against the reckless lenders who are out there in the country. That is why, during the financial meltdown of 2008 to 2010, all the countries of the West regarded this Act with high esteem. That is why, as this august House, we must be very careful when dealing with the tools which are respected internationally.
Yes, the hon Oriani-Ambrosini came with this amendment, which would not have effected a qualitative change to the lenders of this country. That is why the issue of the comprehensive Bill was necessary because the new Bill, which is now before Parliament, is going to cover all the aspects which were going to arise from it and will go beyond that.
We know very well that one of the challenges of our creditors is that once their debtors have settled their iills, they will remain in the credit bureaus for five years. The next forthcoming Bill is going to remove their names from the credit bureaus within seven days after they have settled their bills. That is the type of revolutionary amendment we wanted. [Applause.]
This Bill will also regulate the debt counsellors. We know that part of the weak implementation of this Bill was that the debt counsellors were able to dump the people they were counselling at their whim but now the Bill is going to provide a framework for them to exit the system. So, this issue of a comprehensive approach is very critical.
This issue of a comprehensive approach of amending this Bill was not only coming from the ANC. All the financial institutions of this country were in support of that. That is why the Banking Association of SA rejected this Bill. That is why the Business Unit of SA, Busa, rejected the Bill in its current form and said that a more comprehensive Bill, which will have been negotiated even at Nedlac, would be the best way of moving forward. That is why I call upon all the members of this House to support the report of the portfolio committee. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question put: That the report be adopted.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, do not ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I've noted you, hon member.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: But, it must be recorded that I did object.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It is on the record, but you were a bit slow in responding.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 16:50.
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