Hansard: Debate on Budget Vote No 18 – Labour

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 22 May 2013

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 95

"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 Jun 2013,"Take 95 [Old Assembly Main].doc"

START OF DAY

Wednesday, 22 may 2013

Proceedings of the extended public committee – chamber of the old assembly

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Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the Old Assembly at 10:01.

Mr G T Snell, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested Members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

FIRST ORDER

START OF DAY

Appropriation bill

Debate on Budget Vote No 18 – Labour:

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chairperson, hon members, distinguished guests on the gallery, comrades and friends, fellow South Africans, firstly, allow me to join millions of our compatriots in paying tribute to one of our best broadcasters, Vuyo Mbuli, who passed on last weekend; and may his soul rest in peace.

Let me remind this House about the clarion call made by the real Congress of the People that met in 1955:

Peace and friendship amongst all our people shall be secured by upholding the equal rights, opportunities and status of all; South Africans shall strive to maintain world peace and the settlement of all international disputes by negotiation - not war.

This Budget Vote takes place at a time when South Africa enters the critical moment of the collective bargaining season. It is also true that we have experienced greater turbulence in industrial relations in our young nation.

These challenges in the area of labour relations and collective bargaining in the year under review have also provided vital insight and lessons going forward, and will be noted in history as necessary painful steps in building our young nation.

Precisely because mining has been and remains a key pillar of our economy, its troubles echo all over the country and affect many industries in its wake. So, it was that when ructions occurred recently in the mining sector, especially in the platinum belt, it left in its wake not only dead or maimed compatriots but a changed collective bargaining framework and a considerable dent in the economy – the effects of which will be felt well into the future.

Added to this, the strikes in the road freight sector and the protest action by farmworkers in the Western Cape reminded us of just how important the responsible exercise of labour relations is to the country and to the economy.

We do want to appeal to citizens not to despair and throw hands in the air on the basis of the challenges we are facing. After all, the very foundation of this nation is based on significantly worse challenges that we overcame. We rise with the morning sun, time and time again, and rededicate ourselves to the ideal of a better life for all. We do so as part of the human effort and endeavour to create a society on the basis of equality, fairness and justice.

Our country is steeped in the art of negotiations and dispute resolution, and for this reason the Department of Labour, in consultation with other affected departments, has engaged organised labour and organised business in concluding a peaceful and stability framework for the mining sector. Talks are also continuing about the character of a new centralised bargaining arrangement in the platinum sector.

In the light of the challenges in the collective bargaining front, and attendant developments, the department will host a labour relations indaba, an event that will see stakeholders and role-players engaged in a conversation on the future of collective bargaining and social dialogue. We want to generate greater interests and concerns of social partners in respect of labour relations conflict, and identify measures to strengthen labour relations and dialogue in order to achieve labour market stability and peace.

To achieve this, the Department of Labour is working closely with Nedlac and the Commission for Conciliation Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA). Out of the pain of Marikana and other hotspots, a nation united in the view of how it wants to deal with challenges of industrial relations will rise.

As part of learning from our troubled year, we have also tabled for discussion the Bureau for Food and Agricultural Policy report that guided us in the setting of the sectoral determination for farmworkers earlier this year at Nedlac. This is to help us see how some of its recommendations can be incorporated into other policy considerations going forward.

The Minister will be engaging the leadership of the Labour Movement to discuss the adversarial nature of our industrial relations and to explore various ways of arresting the potential threat to our system of collective bargaining. The department will also explore areas that present partnership possibilities such as capacity-building and communication. For the collective bargaining institutions to work, we need strong and sophisticated union organisations and strong employer bodies. The bulk of the troubles in the collective bargaining processes mirror the state of organisation in the parties that are involved.

As you may well be aware, the department has always deployed either my office or the institutions under my watch to assist parties in disputes, and so far this has worked well. But this defeats the purpose of collective bargaining institutions that were created in order to free government from becoming involved in workplace issues. You will agree with me that to expect the Minister to become involved in every dispute, carries the risk of undermining the very institutions that were set up to do this work and besides, it is not sustainable nor feasible.

House chair, it is worth repeating that the Department of Labour is alive to its mandate of ensuring that there is decent work pursued under conditions of freedom, equity, security and human dignity – the ideals that drove our people to create a blueprint document called the Freedom Charter.

Our mandate directs us to regulate the labour market through policies and programmes developed in consultation with social partners, which are aimed at the following: improved economic efficiency and productivity; employment creation; sound labour relations; eliminating inequality and discrimination in the workplace; alleviating poverty in employment; enhancing occupational health and safety awareness and compliance in the workplace; as well as nurturing the culture of acceptance that workers' rights are human rights.

As hon members are well aware, there are Bills before Parliament in which we seek to address all of the above. I would like to urge hon members to ensure that these Bills are passed into law as speedily as possible so that workers can benefit from an improved legislative platform and protection in line with International Labour Organisation Standards. The amendments will see an enhanced regime of legal and social protection to deal with current realities in our labour market.

This is in keeping with the promises made in the ANC election manifesto in 2009, which promised that:

In order to avoid exploitation of workers and ensure decent work for all workers as well as to protect the employment relationship, introduce laws to regulate contract work, subcontracting and outsourcing, address the problem of labour broking and prohibit certain abusive practices. Provisions will be introduced to facilitate unionisation of workers and conclusion of sectoral collective agreements to cover vulnerable workers in these different legal relationships and ensure the right to permanent employment for affected workers.

These commitments have the genesis in the Freedom Charter, which committed the state to ensure that; all who work shall be free to form trade unions, to elect their officers and to make wage agreements with their employers; the state shall recognise the right and duty of all to work, and to draw full unemployment benefits; men and women of all races shall receive equal pay for equal work; there shall be a 40-hour working week; a national minimum wage; paid annual leave; sick leave for all workers; and maternity leave on full pay for all working mothers; miners, domestic workers, farmworkers and public servants shall have the same rights as all others who work; child labour, compound labour, the top system and contract labour shall be abolished.

Allow me House Chair to acknowledge in our presence one of the stalwarts that took part in that historic gathering in Kliptown in 1955, Leon Levy, who continues in the effort of attaining a peaceful environment in labour relations as a senior CCMA Commissioner. Mr Levy, has, in the 1950s and 60s served as President of the SA Congress of Trade Unions, Sactu. That was the first nonracial trade union federation in South Africa, which advocated for unionisation of workers across the colour bar under the theme; "Organise or Starve," [Applause.] as well as promotion of one industry, one union, one country, one federation principle.

Let me also pay tribute to another stalwart in her absence, who was also present at the real Congress of the People in Kliptown, umama Emma Mashinini, who was one of the founding members of the Garment Workers Union and later went on to be elected General Secretary of the Commercial, Catering and Allied Workers Union of South Africa. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon Minister, just a minute. Hon members, yesterday I said there is tolerance in heckling without shouting.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Here in the hallowed corridors is hon Eric Mtshali, popularly known as Stalin, who also served with great integrity, especially with Sactu and continues to inspire and lead. It is stalwarts such as these that showed ... [Applause.] ... extraordinary courage and determination, thus contributing to the improvement of the working conditions and the formation of strong trade unions for South Africa's workers.

House Chair, the democratic state post 1994 sought to translate these wishes of thousands that gathered in Kliptown into a reality. Bringing change to a system so pervasive and systemic like the state-sanctioned discrimination is not an event but a process.

We continue, therefore, to fine-tune the process and evolving our jurisprudence to keep up with changing conditions. We reported to this Chamber last year that we had instituted wide-ranging legislative reforms. These reforms include the very effort of curbing the abusive practices visited on workers everyday by the system of labour broking. The fact that both business and labour are up in arms with regard to some of the proposed changes, tells us that we are doing something right.

We promised to continue protecting vulnerable workers as enjoined in the Freedom Charter where it says miners, domestic workers, farmworkers and public servants shall have the same rights as all other workers.

One of the most effective tools the department employs in protecting the vulnerable sectors of our society are sectoral determinations, which regulate the minimum wage that workers can earn in a given industry. Let me repeat, sectoral determinations regulate the bare minimum wage. To this end, in the past financial year, the department has amended and reviewed the determinations in the hospitality, contract cleaning, civil engineering, private security; taxi, wholesale and retail and farmworkers sectors.

We are proposing the following changes to the Unemployment Insurance Act. Firstly, increased benefits to beneficiary's benefits period from eight months to 12 months, which means workers, will be paid over a longer period without additional contributions. [Applause.] The inclusion of domestic workers on maternity benefits; in addition, a woman who goes on maternity leave will be paid at an income replacement rate from 38% to 66%. [Applause.]

Secondly, workers will be given adequate time to claim UIF up from six months to 18 months for death benefits and 12 months for other benefits. Thirdly, this is an attestation, ladies and gentlemen, to a prudent and correct management of the funds by the Unemployment Insurance Fund, which has made it possible for the state of affairs where we add to the benefits possible.

After all, bringing those in need under the protective blanket is a function and purpose of developing our young state, as Amartya Sen, in his seminal book Development as Freedom asserts that:

Protective security is needed to provide a social safety net for preventing the affected population from being reduced to abject misery, and in some cases, even starvation and death. The domain of protective security includes fixed institutional arrangements such as unemployment benefits and statutory income supplements to the indigent as well as ad hoc arrangements such as famine relief or emergency public employment to generate income for destitute.

The proposed changes to the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, Coida, will see domestic workers and farmworkers covered by these protective measures. We continue fighting the scourge of child labour, compound labour, the top system and contract labour as stated in the Freedom Charter.

In June, we will be hosting the Child Labour Day in Mpumalanga after successfully doing so in Limpopo last year. We are all aware that children are made to do work not suitable for their age, especially in the agricultural sector. Alongside our sister departments, we realise the shortage of skills in our economy and are working to make a difference in this field.

To this end, we have partnered with the SA Maritime Safety Association to enable them to tap into our system for the cadets they want to put through the paces of training. We have also agreed to work with the Department of Higher Education and Training to have these cadets placed at FET colleges. As you will hear later, we have also partnered with Setas to provide training for youth and unemployed people.

I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the 2013 class of the Workers College Natal who were awarded diplomas by the University of KwaZulu-Natal in fields like labour studies and labour economics. This college, which is partly funded by the Department of Labour, provides capacity-building for union officials of these federations' affiliates to obtain a national academic qualification.

It may very well be that we would be approaching the fiscus in the next Medium-Term Budgetary Framework to explore whether this noble concept could be replicated to other provinces.

But we also continue lending weight to other efforts to build capacity through our support of Ditsela, which is involved in building capacity by training union officials. The funding for this has been in place since 1996. For the next three years, R30,4 million has been allocated for this purpose.

Colleagues and compatriots, as you know fully well, the Department of Labour is comprised of critical branches and allow me to give an update on the different entities: The Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, continues to play a pivotal role in the area of job creation, ably guided by its board. During the 2012-13 financial year, the UIF and Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, continued their collaboration through the issuance of an additional bond of R2 billion, which has increased the total bond to R4 billion. The IDC utilises these funds to lend out to businesses that aim to create or save jobs. Through this partnership, 21 234 new jobs were created and 20 161 saved for the period up to 31 March 2013.

For the 2013-14 financial year, this investment has increased from 5% to 10% of the total investment portfolio. That means over R8 billion will be made available for investment in manufacturing, mining beneficiation, agriculture and tourism. We have allocated R3,2 billion to the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, to plough into job creation projects, over and above the amount allocated to Industrial Development Corporation.

In addition, the UIF will continue funding Productivity South Africa's Turnaround Solutions. A three-year R39 million per year agreement to assist companies in distress to save jobs and keep people in employment.

The department will also continue with reskilling beneficiaries who lost their jobs for reintegration into the labour market through its training of the unemployed initiative in collaboration with various government training institutions.

Chairperson, let me say that last year, we trained 1 000 UIF beneficiaries and unemployed youth on various ICT related programmes in collaboration with the Media Information and Communication Technologies, Mict, Seta, 1 000 on mining related artisan programmes, and 1 500 in various artisan trades in collaboration with the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority, Merseta. [Applause.]

The UIF has maintained its commitment of R1,2 billion made towards the funding of the Training Lay-off Scheme. A total of R105 million has been budgeted for the 2013-14 financial year.

In all this the UIF has remained true to its core mandate of collecting contributions from employers and paying benefits. During the 2012-13 financial year, the collection of revenue increased by 9,8%.

Regarding the inspection and enforcement services, in the last financial year, we lost one of our members, the Deputy Director-General, Siyanda Zondeki. And may her soul rest in peace.

In terms of the work of this branch, during the past year, the department adopted a more targeted approach to inspection and enforcement. It did so by adopting a targeted approach to deal with the most problematic sectors as well as the high risk sectors where levels of noncompliance and injuries on duty are more pronounced as evidenced by our claim history at the Compensation fund.

In the 2012-13 financial year, we have conducted 141 744 inspections in these sectors alone. Of these, 112 672 were in what we term the problematic sectors and 28 803 in high risk sectors.

Hon House Chair, sometimes we were disturbed by some of the companies that were not complying with the laws of this country. Given this level of compliance, it is necessary for me to remind our social partners that they share a responsibility for ensuring that employers and employees comply with the labour laws of this country. We have jointly formulated our legal framework through social dialogue, and we need to work together to ensure an improved level of compliance in our labour market.

The Employment Equity Team for the year under review has completed 269 Director-General's review in terms of the Employment Equity Act. The overwhelming majority of companies reviewed, 254 to be exact, were found to be noncompliant. We will vigorously pursue compliance going forward.

At a policy level we have completed the work in preparation for our ratification of the International Labour Organisation, convention 81 on labour inspection. It is our aim to register our ratification of convention 81 at the ILO during the course of this year.

We will also seek to amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act to ensure that it does not only respond to the needs of a changing economy but also strengthen powers of our occupational health and safety inspectors.

With regard to Public Employment Services, in June 2012, the department officially launched the jobs fair and summits that were conducted in all the nine provinces.

The immediate effect of the jobs fair was as follows: 23 726 workseekers were registered; 14 253 workseekers received employment counselling to assist them in career choices; 8 051 job opportunities were registered by employers accompanied by pledges of real and immediate job opportunities from employers. The jobs fair were an important start in the processing of awareness of the public employment services.

Hon House Chairperson, it is a pleasure to welcome to the House today a number of employers who participated in our jobs fair and have made use of the department's employment services. With them are young, first-time entrants to the labour market who have been placed in jobs through our services. They are there in the gallery.

During the last financial year, our employment services managed to register a total of 600 259 workseekers and the service managed career counselling to 26 468 workseekers whilst 16 171 were placed in job opportunities

Last year, I reported that the Sheltered Employment Factories that fall under the department and employ more than 1 000 persons with disabilities had started a turnaround strategy.

The Compensation Fund is responsible for managing the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, Coida, which deals with compensation for injuries and diseases contracted in the work environment. The fund has experienced challenges in the last financial year. The challenges experienced have been brought to the attention of the portfolio committee. In our last budget we also made a commitment to the implemented turnaround strategy. This has been partly implemented.

Let me say that we indicated last year that the fund will launch an online submission of return of earnings and this system was launched in May 2012. To date close to 200 000 employers switched from manual to an online submission system and the fund was also able to collect over R7,3 billion in revenue as a result thereof.

In the period under review, the Compensation Fund paid out over R775 million in pensions to over 295 000 beneficiaries. We also indicated last year that special attention will be given to improving claims management, and I am glad to say that there have been some improvements on this front, but more still needs to be done. We have managed to process 934 000 invoices in medical payments amounting to R1,5 billion, a remarkable improvement indeed.

I have directed the commissioner and the director-general to initiate a process of piloting the Rand Mutual Assurance, RMA, claim system as a matter of urgency and provide me with regular feedback. We will also be amending the Compensation Fund Act to introduce an enabling provision for rehabilitation and early return to work for the injured and diseased workers. The draft amendment Bill has been signed off by the board and it is going through the internal legal processes.

The fund has funded a total of 21 social civil society job creation projects and the discussions with the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, to allocate R3,5 billion investible income for job creation and infrastructure development process.

In the area of labour relations, the past year has raised a number of challenges. The department will continue to work with our social partners to stabilise areas where there is conflict in labour relations. I also want to acknowledge the important work that is being carried out by the CCMA in mediating and conciliating disputes and providing other support, including to platinum mining companies. It is crucial that employers and trade unions do whatever they can to stabilise incidents of unrest wherever they occur.

Regarding our obligations to the International Labour Organisation, ILO, South Africa has been in the forefront of ratifying the different conventions. Recently, Parliament has ratified Maritime Labour Convention of 2006 to provide a modern system of improved conditions of decent work in the maritime sector together with an enforcement regime.

Convention concerning work in the fishing sector of 2007 to ensure that employees on fishing vessels will have decent conditions of work, including food and accommodation, occupational safety and health, medical care and social security.

Labour Inspection Convention, 1947, No 81: To provide useful guidance for designing and monitoring an improved labour inspection system. Domestic Worker Convention, 2011, No 189: To enhance protection of domestic workers worldwide. In any event, nearly all issues in this convention are already entrenched in the sectoral determination for domestic workers. There are, however, a few issues that still need to be addressed, such as the coverage of domestic workers under the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, Coida.

We have also ratified the Technical Assistance Guidelines on HIV and Aids Code, and have been reviewed and aligned with the ILO's recommendation 200, concerning HIV and Aids work that has also been adopted. I just want to edge this hon House that if you are an employer of a domestic worker, you must register that domestic worker, because if you don't do that you will get the consequences thereof. [Applause.]

The Commission for Employment Equity's latest report shows that there is still a long way to go. Employment Equity is not a compliance issue. It is not about ticking boxes. It is a moral and human rights imperative; it is a precondition for the achievement of sustainable development, economic growth and equality in the country, which should be supported by decent work initiatives. Proactive measures are required by organisations to develop and harness an inclusive and diverse workforce that is free from unfair discrimination and is reasonably demographically represented.

Earlier in the year we reviewed the sectoral determination of farmworkers. A number of farmers indicated that they could not meet the determination R105 a day. We made it clear that subject to certain conditions, it was possible for temporary exemptions to be granted.

With regards to the Department of Labour strategic priorities, I will just highlight the others, based on the appropriation; R23,2 million in respect of salary adjustment; R50 million in respect of the Sheltered Employment Factories, and R85 million in respect of the CCMA roll-out.

This spending focus over the medium term will continue to be on protecting vulnerable workers, reintegrating workseekers into the labour market and ensuring the decent work agenda. Also in this financial year the department will have an opportunity to manage, for the first time in 10 years, its own IT services; improve and effect, particularly the functioning of the Compensation Fund; substantially reduce the claims backlog and turnaround times on claims and employer services.

In relation to our legislation we will be focussing on amendment of the Unemployment Insurance Act, amendment of the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, amendment of Occupational Health and Safety Act; amendments to other labour legislation, including the promulgation of Employment Services Bill that are currently before Parliament.

In this financial year, we are going to upskill 1 000 domestic workers as well as train farmworkers in terms of the Black Economic Empowerment Act, BEEA, Labour Relation Act, LRA, and sectoral determination.

The current year should be one in which the department can focus on promulgation and implementation to improve worker protection and employment security.

Hon House Chair, allow me to finally thank all the members that helped us, particularly advisory boards, for different entities. I also want to thank the department official led by the director-general for their support; and I will particularly like to thank the staff in the Ministry, whom I sometime give a hard time.

I would like to finally commend the budget of labour to the hon members of this House. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr E M NCHABELENG / MALUTA ///tfm/// END OF TAKE

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The MINISTER OF LABOUR

Mr M E NCHABELENG: Hon Minister, hon Members of Parliament, the director-general, DG, and officials of the department, social partners, business, community and labour, captains of industry and commerce, distinguished guests, members of the media and ladies and gentlemen, the ANC-led government inherited a terminally ill economy in 1994, characterised by unemployment, economic stagnation and repressive labour laws.

The pre-1994 labour laws of this country were used by the apartheid regime not only to suppress workers in the workplace but as part of social engineering on a bigger scale. Wages that were paid to workers dictated the societal patterns that we see in this country. The low level of wages determined, amongst others, who would qualify for a housing loan, which hospital to go to, and if you die, which mortuary to be taken to and which cemetery to be buried in ... [Interjections.] ... which schools to send your children to, where to buy your groceries and essentials and lastly, what food to eat. The entire socialisation of society was, to a large extent, dictated to by the labour market policies of the day.

The advent of the new labour relations regime in 1996 changed the labour policy and industrial relations landscape dramatically and the ANC is proud of that. The new labour dispensation attracted accolades beyond our borders and the world over. Having said that, it would be naive to forget that, historically, the labour laws regime in South Africa has always been a contested terrain and it

will be for some time to come. The difference today though, is that we have put institutions in place to deal with and manage the inherent conflict in our labour sector. Despite varied outcomes, our institutions remain the best that we have.

South Africa's response to the 2008-09 global economic crisis was facilitated by the labour market institutions. While the South African economy is advancing, it has not fully recovered from the devastating 2008-09 global economic recession. While South Africa dragged itself out of recession quicker than most countries could, there are still many countries that remain trapped in the aftermath of the 2008 global economic recession. The undeniable truth is that some of these countries are major trading partners of South Africa. Therefore, their challenges will have an unavoidable impact on our economic growth patterns.

The Minister of Labour has, in pursuit of the ruling party's vision, tabled four Bills in Parliament. In our view, the Bills seek to address the gaps that have emerged since the last amendments, alignment with the country's international obligations, alignment with the relevant jurisprudence and, most importantly, strengthen the protection of vulnerable workers. There is agreement among all social partners that these are the right things to do. Where parties differ, is on the how. As the old saying goes; angels lurk in the periphery, but the devil is in the detail. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Government cannot abdicate its responsibility to protect its citizens. Likewise, it cannot turn a blind eye to rampant abuse of vulnerable workers. The United Nations is resolute that workers' rights are human rights too. They are human beings and are entitled to protection by the law. [Applause.]

The sectoral determination dispensation is one of the instruments at government's disposal to deal with the protection of vulnerable workers. The recent farmworkers' strike in the Western Cape has surfaced a new and growing trend in the farming sector, that is, anecdotally, the make-up of the workforce is dominated by foreign nationals. Our Constitution and our labour laws extend protection to all workers, including documented and nondocumented foreign workers, that is, those legal and illegal in South Africa. They are protected by the labour laws of this country.

The challenge in the farming sector is the rampant exploitation of foreign nationals, and in some cases, they are preferred to locals and are often paid far below the prescribed minimum wages. When the Minister of Labour gazetted the new sectoral determination for farmworkers, two trends happened;

Firstly, an unprecedented large number of employers applied for exemptions; and secondly, employers started recruiting large numbers of foreign nationals. Home Affairs has evidence of this.

If it is true that our labour laws are inflexible, close to a million workers would not have lost their jobs as a result of the global economic recession in 2008. If our laws are that rigid, the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, wouldn't be inundated with notices for retrenchments, the mining sector wouldn't even be talking about possible retrenchments and employers would not be able to apply for exemptions. For this reason, I want to argue that our labour laws are relatively flexible. If you give a four-year-old a hammer, everything in front of him would look like a nail to be hammered. [Laughter.] It seems that in the eyes of employers, the labour laws of this country look like a nail that needs to be hammered at every opportunity.

Protecting workers' rights is a constitutional ... [Interjections.] ... obligation, and the ANC has done an excellent job in ensuring that there are institutions to advance this noble and human rights objective. It can only be the liberators who will push this. [Interjections.] I am sure that you will agree with me that there is no labour market system that is perfect, and the ANC does not, for one moment, profess that our labour market policy framework is perfect. However, it is a compromise that was negotiated by the social partners at the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, as far back as 1996. If we had done it our own way, we would have done it differently.

Last week I watched a television debate about wage negotiation season, or as some call it, strike season. It depends on where you stand. What surprised me was the notion that the decline in union membership in the country must be celebrated. Somebody said that. Comrades, this is absurd! The empirical evidence points to the fact that nonunionised workers are the most vulnerable and this can never be a cause for celebration.

Some of these challenges are shaking the very foundation laid to transform the economy and social conditions of the majority of South Africans. The current picture contradicts what we envisaged the postapartheid South Africa to be.

In light of these challenges, we welcome the 2013-14 budget increase to R2,4 billion, especially given the resource challenges that the department faces. We welcome efforts to increase the budget in order to improve the inspectors' remuneration to ensure their retention and creating new specialist labour inspector posts. This goes a long way in addressing some of the challenges that were raised by the labour inspectors during our oversight visits. Some of these challenges include understaffing and insufficient tools of trade such as laptops and vehicles to travel with to inspection sites.

The budget allocation for the current financial year is expected to

increase the number of personnel in the Ccmpliance, Monitoring and

Enforcement subprogramme, from 1 434 posts in 2011-12 to 1 457 in

2015-16. In the current financial year, the department is going to

increase the capacity of the inspectorate with an additional 90

inspector posts. This will increase the number of inspections

conducted per annum.

The larger portion of the Compliance, Monitoring and Enforcement subprogramme's goods and services budget goes to travelling and fleet services costs for inspectors. We hope that this will contribute towards the alleviation of transport-related challenges raised by inspectors during oversight visits.

Hon Minister, we hope that this budget will also address some of the challenges that have been raised by Prof L F Geminiani and Prof John Smallwood's research outcomes when they investigated the effectiveness of the Department of Labour's occupational health and safety inspections service in the construction sector. Their research concluded that there is a need for the South African inspectorate services to improve the manner in which inspections are conducted in this sector. However, voluntary compliance by companies is also encouraged. It takes two to tango but actually, it takes many to do that.

We also welcome additional budget allocations of R80 million in 2013-14, R140 million in 2014-15 and R160 million in 2015-16 financial years to the CCMA, to deal with additional caseloads arising from amendments to labour legislation and the roll out of the web-based management system, a new office in the Vaal and Welkom areas, and a dedicated job-saving unit for the training lay off schemes. We commend the department for the role it had played, through the CCMA, in the resolution of disputes of national importance, such as at the Lonmin Mine in Marikana and the De Doorns farm disputes. We all know that.

This budget is most welcome, especially considering the challenges

that we face. Somehow, while we acknowledge the validity of these

challenges, there are times when some of the comments and actions

could be interpreted as a direct attack to the 1994 gains.

Labour market institutions such as the CCMA and Nedlac continue to play a role in stabilising the labour market through negotiations and finding consensus among labour market role-players. Strengthening labour market

institutions is critical to finding

social compact, as proposed in the National Development Plan, NDP, to find solutions to deal with unemployment, poverty and inequality. Without such consensus, we all know there will be anarchy.

Every person and family needs protection from the risks and the resulting insecurities. Some sectors are more prone to these insecurities than others. For example, the agricultural sector is vulnerable to shocks of any kind. In addition to occupational hazards in this sector, risks of unemployment, irregularity and instability of income are significant. Hence, there is a need to build comprehensive social security funds to cushion workers during difficult periods.

During the 2011-12 financial year, the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, paid benefits of R5,6 billion to 706 000 people. The UIF's administration has considerably improved over the years.

As the committee, we also acknowledge that today there are still numerous challenges facing the Compensation Fund. At present, effective compensation services are compromised by administrative difficulties with the Compensation Fund and the Compensation Commissioner for Occupational Diseases. On 13 February this year, the committee met with the commission to discuss its challenges. While there is improvement in some areas, it is relatively slow, given the significance of the type of services the fund has to provide to the workers of this country. Compared with the previous consecutive disclaimers, the fund has now received a qualified audit report.

However, poor human resource performances, information technology, IT, challenges and fraud have all led to the nonpayment of medical practitioners. In some instances, these practitioners have refused to work with cases of injury on duty. Unfortunately, these challenges have a direct and adverse impact on the health and lives of workers who have to endure pain from untreated injuries and illnesses. Due to the serious nature of this very issue, my office has been receiving calls regarding compensation cases, and from numerous stakeholders reporting shocking stories of clients who had to suffer numerous amputation procedures as a result of the nonpayment of doctors and medical equipment for these workers. This is absurd! Therefore, the committee undertakes to closely monitor the Compensation Fund, particularly through regular meetings with the Auditor-General's office.

We have also requested that the turnaround strategy project team should report regularly to the committee. Hon Minister, in order to improve the fund's administrative challenges, we request a hands-on approach from the DG and your office.

Furthermore, the Public Employment Services programme received a total of R401 million during the 2013-14 financial year, compared with the previous year's R334,3 million. The programme includes subprogrammes, namely Management and Support Services; Workseeker Services; Employer Services; Designated Groups Special Services; Sheltered Employment Factories, SEF, and Subsidies to Designated Workshops; Productivity SA; UIF; and the Compensation Fund.

The department's expenditure focus will be on enhancing its capacity to implement the Employment Services Bill and the huge employment service projects once the Bill is promulgated, and on managing the implementation of the turnaround strategy of the SEF. Ultimately, the SEF seek to provide on-the-job training for employees, increase the number of workers, partnerships with government departments and private manufacturers for open-employment opportunities, as well as assist private employers to provide conditions conducive to absorbing workers trained in the SEF.

High unemployment is one of the most pressing challenges facing our country. The Budget Review reported that there are 4,5 million jobless South Africans. Another 2,3 million people are categorised as discouraged, and are no longer actively seeking employment. This raises the broad unemployment rate to 33,2%. The government's response to this challenge, as contained in the NDP, includes training; skills development; labour market activation and short-term public employment.

The challenges we face force us to introspectively address weaknesses in our statutes and policies, and to find new solutions to new challenges posed by globalisation and the unique nature of our society. At the core of such introspective exercises, is the need to address leadership challenges to deal with these disparities in the labour market. One such example is the need for companies to address poor managerial practices, which in turn lead to tensions in the workplace. Hence there is a need for companies to invest in skills training, for labour relations managers to acquire negotiation skills and a general understanding of the South African labour relations economy.

We call on the hon Minister to do whatever she can to ensure that poor workers' lives in South Africa improve. Our main worry has been poverty amongst employed workers. It is sad that people would work but still go home with nothing, are hungry and cannot even afford to buy shoes for their children. Minister, we are employing the Second World War cry by the Red Army, when Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa. They said, Tolko vpered, nazad nyet, which means, forward ever, backward never! We are behind you, Comrade Minister. Amandla! [Applause.]

Mr S C MOTAU /AZM MNGUNI//TH / END OF TAKE

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Mr M E NCHABELENG

Mr S C MOTAU: Minister and hon House Chair, as we remember those who have perished during the recent labour related violence, the DA would like to start by pleading for a strike and violence-free environment during the coming wage negotiations period in the mining and other sectors of the economy. We must also ensure that this period does not result in any further job losses similar to those announced by Anglo American Platinum, Amplats, last week. The Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan, warned yesterday that rising tensions in the platinum belt require leadership and urgent attention.

Noting what the Minister had just said this morning, we would like him to inform us as to what the exact plans government has, in order to create a calm environment in which peaceful negotiations will take place this year. The DA believes that no worker should die for belonging to a labour union or for taking part in legitimate collective bargaining processes. Moments are very rare and far between when South Africans across the political spectrums seem to agree on anything. Unemployment, particularly youth unemployment and its debilitating impacts on the economy of the country, is one such issue. From President Jacob Zuma to the National Planning Commission, NPC, there is absolute agreement that unemployment is the greatest challenge threatening the stability of our young democracy.

In its 2012-17 strategic plan, the Department of Labour declared and I quote: "The first challenge facing us is unemployment and underemployment". The statement remains valid today. In his state of the nation address on 14 February, President Jacob Zuma described youth unemployment as a crisis, and the DA agrees. The NPC's diagnostic report states the problem bluntly, and I quote: "Too few people work in the country".

The DA agrees with the National Development Plan, NDP, that sustainable economic growth is the only answer to tackling and beating unemployment. The commission says that for the NDP to succeed, business and labour need to endorse a shared vision. The DA agrees. We also agree with the NDP that, I quote:

Difficult choices will have to be made and that to promote large scale job creations, the functioning of the labour market will have to improve.

Indeed, while we may argue about the degree of flexibility or rigidity of the South African labour market and the impact on job creation, there can be no argument to the fact that our sluggish job creation and high unemployment rate can be attributed to the consequences of some of the country's labour laws that generally protect the employed at the expense of the growing number of unemployed citizens.

The DA is thus very disappointed and remains deeply concerned that the Department of Labour has stubbornly refused to heed our appeals to commission an updated Regulatory Impact Assessment, Ria, of the three Labour Law Amendment Bills and the new Public Services Bill currently going through the parliamentary process.

A Regulatory Impact Assessment conducted in 2010 suggested that jobs of 2,13 million temporary employed South Africans would be jeopardised if the Bills would be implemented in their original form. Important changes were made but the current Bills are yet to be subjected to Ria. Without an updated Ria, we have no idea what the potential negative impacts of the amendments, if passed, are likely to have on job creation and unemployment. This is a risk we should not be taking.

Talking about labour laws, during his department's Budget Vote debate, The Minister of Higher Education and Training, Blade Nzimande, made a blatantly untrue statement that the DA opposes Affirmative Action. I challenge the hon Minister to produce a DA policy document stating that the DA opposes affirmative action. For the edification of the hon Minister, the DA supports constitutional provision for affirmation action and the objective of the Employment Equity Act to promote redress in the South African labour market. [Applause.]

In his speech on 11 February 2010, President Zuma told the nation that, and I quote:

The most urgent focus of policy change must be interventions to create jobs for young people. Unemployment rates for young people are substantially higher than the average. Proposals will be tabled to subsidise the cost of hiring younger workers to encourage firms to take on inexperienced staff.

Subsequently, Minister Ghordan informed the nation that government has set aside R50 billion for the implementation of a huge wage subsidy to encourage employers to take on inexperienced first time job seekers aged between 18 and 29. Regrettably implementation has been blocked by the ANC alliance partner, the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu. The DA calls for the immediate implementation of the youth wage subsidy through the youth employment tax incentives, as once again, announced by the Minister of Finance during his Budget speech earlier this year.

Sepedi:

Bana ba rena ba nyaka mesomo; ba nyaka go bereka!

English:

In this regard, despite our strong reservations, the DA accepts the Social Accord on Youth Employment as a fait accompli and calls on the Minister of Labour and government to ensure that the projects that will be launched are administered fairly and on a non-partisan basis. Poverty and unemployment do not carry a political party membership card. We have noted the remarks by Minister Patel during a radio talk show on Monday that the thrust of some of the projects will be ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T SNELL): Hon members, please stop shouting across the benches. [Interjections.]

Mr S C MOTAU: ... to develop entrepreneurship among the young people and to assist them in starting their own businesses. If this is indeed the case, the Minister will find the DA to be an ardent supporter of the programmes. However, we do have a valid course for our doubts on this commitment from the Minister. Only if the interventions are aligned to the NDP are they likely to succeed in creating an environment wherein it is easier, cheaper, and faster for small businesses to setup, grow, and create employment opportunities.

While the department maintained an unqualified audit opinion for 2011-12 financial year, the Auditor-General was not happy with the department's performance on several important fronts. I will just highlight one. With regard to reliability of information, the Auditor-General, AG, found that a total of 47% of the actual reported performance relevant to the selected programmes was not valid, accurate and complete when compared to the source information. This was due to lack of monitoring, review, standard operating procedures and information system for the recording of actual achievements by senior management.

We hope that the Minister will ensure that this and other concerns by the AG are rectified and will not recur in the AG's annual report this year. Minister, I would now like to turn to one of the problematic entities in your portfolio - the compensations fund, the CF. You have referred to it yourself. Earlier in the year, we were appalled by the dismal performance of compensations fund; we requested that you put the entity under the administration of Treasury. Thank you for responding to my request, Minister.

In denying my proposal, you indicated that you have recently initiated an action plan to address the core of my concerns and that you were confident that the plan was capable of delivering the desired results within a very short space of time. Minister, we do not feel as confident as you do that things will improve soon at the fund. I believe you need to personally intervene if you are not to be disappointed, and I am glad the Chair of the committee has made that point. I believe that you will be disappointed if you do not intervene.

The DA is convinced that things will continue to deteriorate at the fund until the information technology, IT, system has been modernised and the place is staffed with appropriately qualified officials, particularly, in the financial section. [Applause.] Furthermore, during the 2011-12 financial year, the compensation fund logged R 12,9 million in fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Minister, you and the Chair referred to it.

A quick calculation shows that the department could have employed 65 highly needed specialist labour inspectors at a salary of R200 000 per year and for a year, with money wasted purely because certain officials did not or cannot do their jobs. The department cannot afford to keep such people. Scores of frustrated people who were angered by the department's poor or lack of services at the compensation fund turned to the DA for help out of desperation.

The DA has now employed a fulltime staffer, Ms Gail Lucas; and I want to thank you, young lady, if you are up there; who assists me and my colleague, hon van der Westhusen, to field and facilitate labour related complaints, mostly concerning the compensation fund. This is a service our office would not have to provide if compensation fund was doing its job.

Minister, I would like to draw your attention to certain concerns regarding labour centres. In Gauteng, the Sebokeng Labour Centre was closed earlier this year, allegedly for not paying the rent. [Time Expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D A KGANARE / LMM/ .../TM / END OF TAKE

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Mr S C MOTAU

Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Labour, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers who are here - I only see one Minister, so you will automatically have Deputy Ministers - hon members and invited guests, 2013 is the 40th anniversary of the 1973 strikes which started in Durban. As a result, I dedicate this Budget speech to ordinary workers who are never mentioned by names when we talk about these strikes. This unnamed heroes' and heroines' actions catapulted us into the present industrial relations regime.

Their demand was for an increase in their minimum wages. The wages of the textile workers were the worst, and you might ask a question, what has changed? Nothing much, but the colour of the exploiter has changed drastically.

During this period, the Trade Union Council of South Africa, Tucsa, was the mouthpiece of the National Party and apologists of apartheid. They agreed to the then legislation that blacks were not workers and could be paid four times less than white workers. These workers, who challenged the status quo, did not do so under the direction or support of any union. They had no confidence in the formal trade unions affiliated to Tucsa.

Hon Minister, you will be forgiven if you are asking yourself about where I am going with this historic nostalgia. The only reason why I am referring to these strikes is because, as Salman Rushdie wrote in 1995:

History is natural selection. Mutant versions of the past struggle for dominance; new species of fact arise, and old, saurian truth go to the wall, blindfolded and smoking the last cigarette. The weak, the anonymous, the defeated, leave few marks: field patterns, acts-heads, folk tales, broken pitches, burial mounds, fading memory of their youthful beauty. History loves only those who dominate her. It is a relationship of mutual enslavement.

If you do not believe what Rushdie wrote, ask TUCSA and former National Party members. What happened in 1973 is repeating itself right in front of us. Last year's strikes were a challenge to Cosatu, which is referred to by comrade Willie Madisha, former Cosatu President, as: "the workers league of the ANC."

The attitude of the sweetheart or shareholder unions to workers' plight was given a rude awakening by workers in the mining sector. The fact that employers agreed with the National Union of Mineworkers, Num, concerning wage settlements and later produced more money, when the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union, Amcu, members went on strike, is indicative of the fact that sweetheart unions can also wear red t-shirts.

Hon Minister, Fikile Mbalula, [Interjections.]

Members: Minister, Minister.

Mr D A KGANARE: I said hon Minister, listen! I said hon Minister, Fikile Mbalula warned about these unions a long time ago when he was the President of the ANC Youth League and genuinely believed that disrespect and militancy were synonymous. He said: "Cosatu speaks left and acts right." [Laughter.] These days when you enter the board room where union leaders are meeting employers, it becomes difficult to discern whether it is a collective bargaining discussion taking place or a shareholders' meeting.

All sweetheart unions are bound to be exposed and no amount of political rhetoric can hide it. As it happened in the 70s to Tucsa, history is bound to repeat itself. It was a long road from 1973 to 1994. The struggle for independent and progressive labour movement continues, Aluta Continua!

Cope believes that public sector unions should not affiliate to any political party or a federation which is affiliated or aligned to any political party. [Applause.] Cope believes that civil servants should not be biased towards South Africans who do not agree with their political party affiliation or preference. All South Africans pay their taxes and deserve to be served equally without their political affiliation deciding on how they should be treated. Just imagine if you go to a police station and meet a police official from the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, Popcru, and you go to a hospital you meet National Education, Health and Allied Workers' Union, Nehawu, nurse, how do you expect them to treat Cope members if they refer to Cope as cockroaches? [Laughter.] They can't be objective.

South Africa can only have labour stability if the labour market players act in good faith towards each other. Those who opportunistically attack the collective bargaining regime which was sacrificed for, in blood and sweat, must understand that what will happen after the collapse of collective bargaining will be labour unrest and instability in the labour market. Vulnerable workers deserve an assurance of a minimum wage as negotiated by industry players. When vulnerable workers do not benefit from collective bargaining, expect them to continuously move from one company to another looking for better wages.

These super-exploiting companies will never have loyal, experienced and skilled labour. What follows is that they will produce inferior goods and services which will make customers to move away from them and will become bankrupt. The behaviour and conduct of the stock exchange monitoring trade unionists have given the reactionary forces within our country an opportunity to attack the collective bargaining regime. Hon members, what you saw in Marikana and in the Western Cape will be like a Sunday picnic if the collective bargaining regime is allowed to collapse.

An attempt by Num to be seen to be more militant in demanding 60% wage increase is short-sighted and dangerous. Num's labour aristocracy which calls itself leadership, know that this demand is not achievable and it will be followed by a strike which in turn will be followed by retrenchments. This aristocracy have access to all information and skills that will enable them to be realistic. They must not go to negotiation as merely a process towards a strike.

They must learn from their Cosatu eh ... I nearly said comrades –colleagues ... [Laughter.] ... about the effect of trying to take over people's genuine struggle. In its desire to highjack the farm workers' strike in the Western Cape they made pronouncements about the end of the strike. When they tried to get workers back to work without a mandate, Jurie Scheepers, who was one of the strikers, told them: "Cosatu is not our boss, we are the people who suffer, not Cosatu."

The strike in the Western Cape might have been financed by the alliance through the Minister of Agriculture but the alliance was never allowed to be in charge and I hope that Cosatu learnt a lesson from that strike. That is why, hon Minister, Cope believes that the Inspectorate should be properly equipped and staffed. They should also be supplied with the necessary tools of trade, like vehicles and laptops. It is important that the laws of the country should be respected by all employers irrespective of their origin and influence.

Last year in the 2011-12 budget, the Inspectorate was allocated R60 million in order to promote professionalisation of the service. Hon Minister, can you tell the House where professionalisation of the Inspectorate is? In addition, how were these funds utilised? The fact that the Guptas did not want to be served by African workers at Sun City is both racist and unconditional. The Minister's silence in this regard was deafening.

The fact that the budget of the department - hon Makhubela-Mashele - the Guptas will never invite you to their wedding... [Laughter.] - has been increased in real terms should be welcomed. It is the contribution of the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, in being proactive which should be ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO /sam // JN – checked / END OF TAKE

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Mr D A KGANARE

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, the Inkatha Freedom Party wishes to acknowledge the fact that this department is generally running in a satisfactory manner.[Applause.] Against the current sporadic unrest, this is commendable.

However, there are issues that require additional impetus and redress and then I would like to draw the Minister's attention to them today, as well as solicit her focus towards the immediate rectification of same.

The wild-cat strikes are fast becoming the norm on the South African labour landscape with such strike action inevitably leading to violence, unrest and injury to persons and property. They are also crippling to our economy and occurring with greater regularity. There is a grave danger that they will become the standard operating procedure of labour unions, which is already being evidence. This lawlessness must be stopped dead in its tracks. Failure to address the issues immediately, will lead to unruly labour force with dire socioeconomic results. This, we can ill afford much less during the current economic downturn.

These strikes regularly lead to the unnecessary and tragic loss of life which blame must once again be placed on the unions. They are clearly either unable or unwilling to control their members. Our current labour unions hold this country hostage upon the slightest whim of their leadership. We now have an official strike season within our labour psyche. This must be condemned in the strongest possible terms as it is emotionally based and not rationalised through the manipulation of the mob mentality by unscrupulous union leadership. Union appear to be creating problems and issues where there are none. This is perhaps because they are trying to show value to their members who pay monthly premiums for their services and because of union rivalry in trying to attract membership.

Our currency has already weakened directly due to ongoing labour tensions in the mining industry and our foreign investment is hurting.

IsiZulu:

Mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ngesikhathi sihambele KwaZulu-Natali njengekomidi...

English:

...we actually discovered some serious problems in some of the labour service centres. One of the issues that were of

grave concern to us was the issue of the labour inspectorate services.

IsiZulu:

Abanazo izinto zokusebenza, Ngqongqoshe. Sathola bengenazo ngisho izimoto

English:

In some instances, we discovered that 18 inspectors were actually sharing one vehicle. That is not a conducive working environment. In another place, we found that they did not actually have uniforms. Sometimes they are being supplied with uniforms that do no even fit them.

IsiZulu:

Akusona-ke isimo esihle leso sokusebenza.

English:

I am just hoping that the Minister will be able to attend to those issues. The current critical skills list is not accurate nor is it up to date. How do we expect to attract the right people for the necessary positions if we do not know what is required? There is also lack of leadership at provincial departmental level which actually exacerbates this problem. Local leaders are more interested in their own positions and financial interest than in finding solutions to labour issues which confront them within the local sphere. So, it is my plea, Madam Minister, that a labour centre be established in an area like KwaNongoma to service farm workers around eNgome, eMagudu and so on.

Labour needs to step up and become part of the solution of our economic crisis and not a ball and chain hindrance to it. One wonders, how long we will continue to perpetually plan and workshop without action unless such is sadly the aim of the department. Someone actually alluded to the problems around the compensation fund. The IFP also submits that the management of these funds should be taken over by the Treasury because as things stand now, it is underperforming. I thank you. [Applause.]

Adv A de W ALBERTS / GG//LIM CHECKED ZLU// END OF TAKE

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Mr M A MNCWANGO

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Chairperson, Minister, I cannot imagine a more impossible job than yours where the same policies and laws designed to bring about equity, actually undermines its very purpose. I know that you are sincere in trying to create a better working environment for this country's people, but there are fundamental defects that deserve your attention as well.

Afrikaans:

Alles is darem nie slegte nuus nie. Die verandering in die Wet op Basiese Diensvoorwaardes wat bepaal dat persone wat gelyke werk doen gelyk vergoed moet word, verdien wel 'n pluimpie. Ongelyke behandeling van gelyke werknemers op grond van ras en geslag is verkeerd.

English:

However, we still see the need for a Regulatory Impact Analysis, RIA, report on the Labour Law amendments as a whole.

Afrikaans:

Minister, daar is verdere probleme.

English:

While the labour regime has done much to protect individuals from exploitation, it increasingly has a negative effect on our economy due to its inflexibility. Minister Previn Gordhan acknowledges this as well. We must thus find a balance between protecting those with jobs and those without jobs. While the unions are fighting for their working members, we are left to wonder who is fighting for the jobless.

Afrikaans:

Suid-Afrika se arbeidsuitdagings is natuurlik ook gekoppel aan die groot werkloosheidsprobleem. Terwyl die ANC praat van 'n inklusiewe ekonomie, het ons nie een nie. Daar is baie werklose mense wat nie 'n bydra kan lewer nie en daardie komponent van mense bestaan uit alle kleure. Dit is egter kommerwekkend dat al hoe meer wittes en bruinmense nie meer werk kan kry nie, want hulle is nie swart genoeg volgens die ANC-beleid nie.

English:

Minister, with regard to equity, even if the ANC fires all of the white and coloured people in South Africa from their jobs, as they are defined by ANC laws, there will still not be enough jobs for the black community. So, what does that mean? We are on dangerous ground when existing jobs are merely redistributed. We need to grow the economy to create an inclusive one where poverty is completely eradicated. It is dangerous to exclude minorities in a democracy. Just ask the National Union of Mineworkers, NUM, who has become a minority union.

Afrikaans:

Daarom wil ek graag twee voorstelle aan die Minister maak. Eerstens, beskerm wit vrouens en wit gestremde persone deur te sorg dat hulle deel van die aangewese groep bly in terme van indiensneming, maar ook by bemagting.

English:

Secondly, when implementing affirmative action, change the law so that positions cannot remain unfilled when an appropriate AA-candidate can't be found. This is one of the fundamental reasons why so many state positions remain open, which results in poor service delivery. Make use of the new state employment agency to recruit qualified white and coloured persons to fill key positions that impact on service delivery, otherwise the poorest of the poor will suffer the most.

Lastly, to grow the economy, we suggest the following implementation of the special economic zones contemplated by Minister Davies. These zones should suspend race-based and minimum wage policies to ensure a free-market area that can grow without these structural hurdles. Anyone who seeks out a job can decide to work there as many will be created. Those who wish to seek out a safe, yet scarce job can decide to stay outside of the zone.

Afrikaans:

Minister, daar is antwoorde vir ons probleme en die VF Plus sal graag in die verband met u verder wil gesels. Dankie.

Mr E NYEKEMBA

Adv A de W ALBERTS

Mr E NYEKEMBA: Hon Chairperson, the Minister of Labour, the Department of Labour and its branches, led by its director-general, Members of Parliament and guests in the gallery, the ANC requested me to speak on collective bargaining. Collective bargaining, as everybody knows, is without doubt, enshrined in the Constitution. Look in section 23 of the Constitution and you will find bargaining council. Look at the labour Relations Act and you will find bargaining council. Once collective bargaining is enshrined in any legislation or even in the Constitution, it means that employers will be represented by employer organisations and employees will be represented by trade unions and the rights of either party are equal in terms of the Constitution.

Wage and other conditions of employment are negotiated in bargaining councils, where workers are represented by their trade unions and employers by their employer organisations. This needs to be traced back.

The Industrial Conciliation Act of 1955 provided improved conditions for the resolution of industrial disputes for white workers and this legislation applaud racially mixed trade unions that included African workers and the white workers co-opted by these devices. The majority of white unionists in the South African Trades and Labour Council embraced this racist measure, compelling the majority of unions in which African workers were well represented, to organise themselves in a separate federation which the Minister spoke about earlier. That federation that was formed in 1955 is the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu. This is a federation of trade unions that fought side-by-side with the ANC until it was banned in 1960.

The legislations which came as a result of the ANC being the leading party in government, provides for trade unions to bargain on behalf of its members without discrimination on the basis of colour, as it used to be in 1955, as indicated. Thank you to our oldest liberation movement, the ANC.

Collective bargaining is a collective tool for workers through their trade unions to engage another organised partner who owns the means of production - the employer. Individual workers who have a contract of employment with their employer are much weaker individually in dealing with the employer and their counter - the power of the employer. Through trade unions workers can have a collective voice in bargaining processes.

Through collective bargaining parties reach a collective agreement which binds parties for the duration of that agreement, which set wages and other working conditions. This is also protected in terms of section 23 of the Labour Relations Act which makes a collective agreement, which has been reached and signed by parties, a law. The ANC-led government extends bargaining council collective agreements to cover nonparties, as a means to eliminate inequalities, poverty wage and exploitation, in particular.

Through collective bargaining the ANC supports and encourages employee share schemes that come as a result of collective bargaining and through workplace forums. I will mention a few examples: Kumba Iron Ore, the employee share scheme exists there as a result of collective bargaining; Sasol, the scheme is also as a result of collective bargaining. Even in Eskom there is what is called gain-sharing, where workers will get a share if the profits reach a particular percentage. [Interjections.] Don't you know? It is gain-sharing. [Laughter.]

With regard to challenges of collective bargaining, the Minister has alluded to the fact that 2012 has been a challenging year. Anarchy and lawlessness are fast taking root in the collective bargaining. This kind of anarchy causes South Africa to be ranked number 144 out of 144 in the Global Competitive Index.

The case in point related to anarchy and lawlessness is in the platinum mines, De Doorns, roads freight workers and bus drivers, to mention the few. Let everybody join the ANC in congratulating the Commission for the Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, on the role it has played in resolving these industrial actions. [Applause.] Some of these actions were unprotected industrial actions, especially in the mining sector. CCMA, you have made the ANC proud, hence we support your interventions without consent of parties involved in an industrial action.

An HONOURABLE MEMBER: They made the country proud, not you.

Mr E NYEKEMBA: Through collective bargaining, wage increases can help to create jobs by putting more money into pockets and increasing spending on goods and services. They have to employ more workers to meet the increased demand which leads to faster growth in the GDP.

The issue of unemployment cannot only be addressed by nonincreases in wages that comes as a result of collective bargaining because there will be no buying power to those few who are working as we speak. So, to say that the few employed have to be paid less in order for the unemployed to be employed, is not true. [Interjection.]

The ANC congratulate the Minister on the announcement made regarding the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, amendment to extend more benefits to vulnerable workers, in the main, in the agriculture and domestic sector.

Peaceful negotiations come as a result of the procedures that are set in terms of the legislations. We have seen those industrial actions that happened as a result of a dispute that could not be resolved between employers and employees. Those are strikes that happen as a result of following the procedures, notwithstanding the fact that there are unprotected industrial actions. At the same time we look at what causes an unprotected industrial action. We must not only look at the fact that it is an unprotected industrial action without looking at what caused it and who provoked those workers to embark on an unprotected industrial action. [Interjections.]

An HONOURABLE MEMBER: Poor leadership.

Mr E NYEKEMBA: Poor leadership in the DA. The DA whose madam was crying on 9 May when there was a debate in the legislature in the Western Cape in relation to the employment equity.

An HONOURABLE MEMBER: She was not crying.

Mr E NYEKEMBA: She cried and closed her eyes. If you haven't seen that, I will show you the Mail and Guardian of last week where she is crying, closing her eyes.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Members, you know it is the standing rule of this Assembly. You may object to what a speaker is saying. If you do, please don't make a noise. Just listen to the speaker, so that when your turn comes to speak in this House, you can then point out where you differ with the other speaker. You are shouting like school boys. Comrades, I don't accept it.

Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The speaker is misleading the House. It has been publicly corrected that the Premier of the Western Cape was not crying in the House. Newspapers have carried it; they have corrected it ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Members, I can't hear what the speaker is saying. You are making a noise this side. Please, don't do it again.

Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, I have made the point of order that it is a matter of public record. The newspapers themselves will have to carry the corrections. The Premier of the Western Cape was not crying in the provincial legislature. The member is misleading the House.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Hon member, it is not a point of order.

Mr E NYEKEMBA: Hon Kganare made reference to the strikes of 1973. I think that the member, at the time, was still with progressive trade unions, which led to the formation of Cosatu in 1985. I think the important point that he left out regarding 1973 is the establishment of the Nchabeleng detachment which was linked to those strikes in order to revive the struggle at that particular time. [Interjections.]

On 12 to 15 March 2013 Cosatu realised its challenges. Informed by the resolution that was taken in the 11th Congress, Cosatu realised they need to have a conference on collective bargaining and organising. And that did take place. So, Cosatu didn't wait for the opposition to decide it. They sat down and analysed and then came up with a way on how to address that. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applasue.]

Mrs C DUDLEY / Src / END OF TAKE

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The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI)

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, it is my time now, last year at about this time the ACDP was saying that to boost employment and raise the economic growth rate, South Africa requires changes to labour laws regulations that will provide for high labour productivity as well as a link between productivity and remuneration. I remember saying that when most people are employed, exploitation becomes less of an issue because workers can be bad employees without the risk of unemployment.

All that may be true and I am sure that it is, however, let us face it. It is simply not going to happen. Therefore, to be practical and considering that the ruling party and its alliance partners are extremely unlikely to consider relaxing our labour laws. Our focus as a result is to make sure that we do not decide to tighten them unnecessarily. Our labour laws are strict and also well structured and to a large degree probably functional.

The problem we have is that our labour laws are not manned. We need therefore to spend more money on compliance and less on talking about amendments and changes. This year the ACDP is calling for the department to simply implement the laws we have. We have a Department of Labour and an inspectorate in the department – this inspectorate is under resourced, has few employees who are mostly inadequately trained. This is where we must start and the Budget must enable the Minister to fix this.

Most of us would at least agree that our strong point is that the Basic Conditions of Employment Act regards health and safety, maternity leave, sick leave, etc, as the basics. When we go back to the basics and concentrate on what people really need and not on the agenda of unions trying to buy loyalties with ridiculous demands for more money, we will be closer to the mark.

One thing we can be proud ourselves about regarding our labour laws is that we do not have sweat shops. We no longer have slave-type conditions but we must make sure that we hold on to this achievement. We must strengthen the inspectorate and everything to do with compliance. In yesterday's Finance debate the ACDP pointed out that the key challenge will be to control growth in the public sector wage bill which has grown over the past five years from R156 billion to R314 billion. The biggest employer as well as the highest paying employer in South Africa today is the government.

There have been two watershed strikes in South Africa over the last six months in the platinum mines and in agriculture. Two things stood out as similar about these strikes. Firstly, no one saw them coming, at least no one who should have seen it coming, like the department. Why is it that there was no one at the ground to monitor compliance? Secondly, hon Minister, you were absent. I think that you were on a holiday and with regards to the agricultural strike you were at a seminar abroad.

Am I right to say that trade unions called to speak to you and they got no response? Institutions like the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, and the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, were also not activated quickly enough. Our country cannot afford damaging industrial action, especially... [Time expired.] the ACDP supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Mrs L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE

Mrs C DUDLEY

Mrs L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE: Hon Minister, Deputy Ministers in the House, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I must point out that the only tool that workers have in order for them to get their demands is through a strike. [Interjections.] A strike becomes a concern when it becomes violent. However, the only tool they have is through strikes. [Interjections.]

Central to building the economy is the question of worker rights. Past policies of labour exploitation and repression must be redressed if the imbalances of power between employers and workers are to be corrected in the country. The basic rights to organise and to strike must be entrenched. Negotiations and participative structures at national, industry and workplace level must be created to ensure that labour plays an effective role in the reconstruction and development of the country.

South Africa operates in a mixed economy which is well regulated and fosters and promotes economic growth and further protects the worker, most importantly the most vulnerable worker. This regulation does not only protect the workers but it creates an environment which is conducive for businesses to grow and expand. The National Economic Development and Labour Council Act allows social partners who are represented by business, labour, civic organisation and government to come together at Nedlac and decide on economic growth, participation in the economy, decision-making and social security.

It is standard practice in the department that each time a new labour law is introduced or in an event of amending an existing law, a comprehensive awareness campaign is launched immediately after the Bill becomes law. The department must support a number of initiatives to build capacity of the workers to understand their rights. Some of these initiatives include support for the Ditsela Workers' Education Institute which is set up specifically to train workers and their respective trade unions and the outreach programmes which focus on labour rights awareness by the labour centres.

The department runs awareness campaigns on various aspects of the labour legislations alongside the historical and symbolic public holidays. We welcome the work of the department on rolling out a programme to clean up the trade union registry of all bogus unions and the criteria to register trade unions has been tightened up. We are also pleased with the work on engaging the leadership of the South African Domestic Workers Union and the agreement that the department will facilitate the participation of its members on trade union training programmes.

The Minister has also developed a national programme that focuses on know-your-rights for farm workers and domestic workers for the 2013-14 year. It is good work that should be acknowledged. When a worker knows his or her rights they become empowered to bargain for progress and benefits in their employment. We in the ANC will make sure that the gains of the workers in their majority are protected and defended at all cost. Workers had to fight and protest to have labour legislations that recognise that workers' rights are human rights.

In driving and promoting the decent work agenda, our labour laws play a pivotal and important role. It is therefore of paramount importance for the Labour Amendment Bills before our committee to speak to this agenda of decent work. Decent work is the foundation to fight against poverty and inequality and its promotion should be the cornerstone of all our efforts. At least we are doing that in the ANC.

Decent work embraces both the need for more jobs and for better quality jobs. [Interjections.] The creation of decent work and sustainable livelihoods will be central to the ANC-led government's agenda. The ANC government will make the creation of decent work opportunities and sustainable livelihoods the primary focus of our economic policies.

At the dawn of our democracy we committed ourselves to the eradication of social and economic inequalities, especially those that are systemic in nature and which were generated in our history by colonialism, apartheid and patriarchy, and which brought pain and suffering to the great majority of our people. You on the left will know that. South Africa has international obligations under binding treaties and customary international law, especially human rights, which promote equality and prohibit unfair discrimination. Among those obligations are the ones specified in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The country is also obliged to comply with international labour standards for the ratification of these conventions.

Recently in the National Assembly we recommended a report of the International Labour Organisation, ILO, that talks about HIV and Aids in the workplace. The International Labour Organisation's Report 200 establishes principles concerning HIV and Aids in the workplace. It further recognises that the majority of people living with HIV are in their most productive years. It is critical to strengthen efforts to prevent HIV infections in the working population.

Workplaces can also enhance access to treatment, care and support to enable workers living with HIV a dignified productive life. We are also pleased that the Convention on Domestic Workers also went through the House. The convention clearly talks about radically ensuring that domestic workers, the vast majority of whom are women, their work inside the home are valued, recognised and protected. It was desperately needed and long overdue.

According to the latest Quarterly Labour Force Survey, there is a total of 1,1 million domestic workers in South Africa. In South Africa, domestic workers already enjoy legislative protection such as regulated working hours, minimum wages, overtime payment, daily and weekly rest periods, social security and maternity leave as the Minister has just announced.

In conclusion, I would like us to remember what the Convention on Domestic Workers entails. Most of us here have workers or assistants in our homes, we call them domestic workers. The Domestic Workers Convention talks about: reasonable hours of work; weekly rest; limit of payment in-kind and clear information on terms of employment. On this note I would like us to support the department's budget and I would like to quote from our icon, Nelson Mandela. Hon Papi, listen:

Overcoming poverty is not a task of charity. It is an act of justice. Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural it is manmade and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings. Sometimes it falls upon a generation to be great. You can be that great generation. Let your greatness blossom. You and I can be that generation of strength. Let your greatness blossom. We can overcome poverty if we put all our efforts to it.

On that note we support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A J WILLIAMS / JN/ END OF TAKE

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Mrs L S MAKHUBELA-MASHELE

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Ministers here present, hon members, and most importantly, the South African people, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge my fiancée, my sister and my friends that are here in the gallery with us today. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I feel very privileged to be standing here delivering a speech about workers during this 2013 Labour Month. I say a speech about workers, because all politics is about service delivery, and all service delivery is about the people – and workers are the people.

The motto of the South African Parliament is "We, the People". We, the people, will no longer stand idly by when circumstances arise where humanity is driven to take to the streets in violent protest against their employer. We, the people, we, as society, must take responsibility for this situation.

An HON MEMBER: Where were you in Marikana?

Mr A J WILLIAMS: When employers undermine the collective bargaining processes in order to make more profits, we, as society, must take responsibility. It is our collective fault, South Africa. It is on our watch that people living in our country take life-threatening action as the only way to improve their conditions of employment. It is the vulnerable workers, such as domestic workers, farm workers, maritime workers and disabled workers that bear the brunt of noncompliance with labour legislation.

We, all of us here and at home, are currently living within the South African class struggle. These engagements are getting more violent, and this will continue until we, as South African people, fully engage in the creation of a nonracist, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa. We, as South African people, must fully engage in the national democratic revolution.

If we take a serious look at the relationship between the employer and the worker today, we will see a growing trend that is emerging. This trend is one of tit for tat: the minimum wage is increased and the employer applies for a permit for foreign workers – as if foreign workers are easier to exploit. The workers win better packages, and the employer reacts by retrenching. This trend is growing throughout the country in every sector. We, as South Africans, should not allow this trend to become the norm. This trend is detrimental to the development of our country and of our future.

In South Africa today, the former apartheid collaborators, the DA, are attempting to assert the notion that the cause of worker unrest is the fault of a few individuals in the same way that the apartheid government attempted to assert that the South African freedom struggle, led by the ANC, was initiated by outside forces. [Interjections.] The DA's assertion is racist in character ... [Interjections.] ... as if the poor and oppressed black workers do not have the capacity to liberate themselves. [Interjections.]

When workers are forced to live in squalor, when they are treated with no respect, they are forced to struggle against their oppressor. [Interjections.] Within the South African labour market, the oppressor is the unscrupulous and inhumane group of greedy individual employers. We, as South Africa, have watched these greedy people undermine the collective bargaining agreements, resulting in loss of life, as we have seen in the mining sector. We, as South Africa, have watched while they employ expensive private security companies to assault, intimidate and harass our fellow South Africans, as witnessed in the farming sector. [Interjections.] We continue to watch ...

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order! Order, please. Order!

An HON MEMBER: He is talking rubbish. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Hang on, hang on, speaker. Order! [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Order, please! I just want to remind everybody here that you are all lawmakers. [Interjections.] You are making laws for the people of South Africa. [Interjections.] Some of them are looking ... There is some frightening behaviour – our behaviour – here. Don't you respect the people there in the gallery? [Interjections.] Are they saying to themselves, Is this how our lawmakers behave? [Interjections.] It is shocking!

An HON MEMBER: You are quite right. Tell them! [Interjections.] He is shocking.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Look at that! Look at that! [Interjections.] I am talking and you are already shouting at somebody else. [Interjections.] I cannot allow that. Please!

An HON MEMBER: Well, we will not allow him to lie. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): I am giving you a last warning, otherwise I will chuck you out of this House.

Mr L SUKA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like the members to observe the Chairperson when he is chairing and not to ... [Inaudible.] ...

An HON MEMBER: That is not a point of order. That is not a point of order! [Interjections.]

Mr L SUKA: They must observe the decorum of this House. Thank you, Chair.

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Chairperson, as South Africans, we continue watching the exploitation of our society perpetrated on a daily basis by those whose lust for wealth is greater than our love of humanity. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Ah, the Guptas! You were right. The Guptas, and the President. And Zuma!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: The DA obviously support those people whose lust for wealth is greater than their love for humanity, but that is true democracy. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order, please! Order! [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Get off your bandwagon.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Let us avoid making provocative statements. Get on, member! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Chairperson, I do not want to see any members bursting into tears, so I will try to avoid any provocative statements.

HON MEMBERS: Aah! [Interjections.]

Mr A J WILLIAMS: It is time that we, as South Africans, join hands to stop this madness. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: You are quite right!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: It is time to measure business success on its social impact and not on how much profit a business can make. [Interjections.] The path that we are currently on is unsustainable and will end in class conflict. [Interjections.] The South African working landscape has changed to such an extent that it is hardly recognisable. The days of certainty about being employed in the same job for a long period are over. Today, most workers are either temporary fulltime employees or casualised labour-brokered staff. This uncertainty causes undue stress on an overstressed workforce.

Some sectors of our society feel that our labour laws are restrictive to business growth. This perception is based purely on accumulation of profit as the objective. In other words, then, let's make profit regardless of the consequences on the people of South Africa. [Interjections.] These money-hungry exploiters of our people need to begin changing their behaviour and putting the interests of our nation first. [Interjections.] It is unpatriotic to exploit South African workers, or any worker.

An HON MEMBER: Quite right. Quite right! Tell Zuma! Tell Gupta!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: It is an unpatriotic thing to do. We must build our nation. [Applause.] We cannot just go after money at the cost of human suffering. [Interjections.]

For those of you who do not know – and I am sure there are many in this House – I will repeat ...

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order, please! Order!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: ... the ANC ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order, please! Order! [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Yes, the Guptas!

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): I am referring to you, hon member, in particular. You are shouting. [Interjections.] Carry on, member.

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Thank you. I have to repeat, again. The ANC is unapologetically worker biased. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Corrupt! You are unapologetically corrupt!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: For those of you who do not know, that is a fact. [Interjections.] This is why labour legislation that is passed by this ANC government will take into account the needs of a vibrant economy as well as the needs of the workers, so as to end worker exploitation and also to encourage economic growth and development. [Interjections.]

Our labour laws are some of the most progressive labour laws in the world. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Is this perhaps the reason that some dodgy employers fail to comply with our labour legislation as they long for the days of slavery and come up with slogans like, Half a loaf is better than none. [Interjections.] These same shrewd exploiters of humanity increase their profits by saving the money they should have spent on workplace safety equipment and other workplace legal requirements. The Department of Labour Inspectorate are overworked because many employers refuse to comply with labour legislation. These employers are like naughty children who have to be supervised constantly, yet they blame unions for low productivity in South Africa and at the same time they cannot even comply with South African legislation. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The time has come to criminalise noncompliance with labour law. We cannot continue along a path where some employers disregard labour law in order to exploit people, and when they are caught, they only pay a fine. [Interjections.] It is time for those who are convicted of serious labour law noncompliance to go to prison.

An HON MEMBER: Lock up the Guptas.

An HON MEMBER: The Guptas must be first!

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Workers' rights are human rights. [Interjections.] If one violates human rights, the penalties are harsh. It is time for workers' rights to be protected and defended with the same emphasis as human rights.

An HON MEMBER: What about Sun City?

Mr A J WILLIAMS: Our country is gripped by the fallout of the world economic meltdown. Now is the time for us, as South Africans, to join as one nation, as a nation united in our diversity, because it is only through working together that we can do more. I thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order!

An HON MEMBER: Have a kiss to your fiancée. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A MLANGENI): Order, please! [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Order!

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN/Robyn/ END OF TAKE

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The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni)

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, I want to thank the Minister for the positive announcements she has made today. I am particularly pleased about your announcement of improved benefits for those on maternity leave. At last, our questions and prodding have paid off. I believe, however, that this announcement is too little, too late.

Hon Makhubela-Mashele has today illustrated why we have such serious labour challenges. To state that workers can only exercise their rights through strike action is absolutely shocking. Hon Williams, by using these bags, I will illustrate the strange kind of patriotism shown by the Department of Labour. I will return to these issues later.

In the hon Minister's budget speech last year, she stated: "Our government has worked tirelessly to give expression to the old injunction of the Freedom Charter that there shall be work and security." Hon Minister, if government has indeed been working hard, it is now certainly the time to work smarter. The Department of Labour quite brashly states that it aims to reduce unemployment, poverty and inequality. Measured against this objective, the department is failing dismally. It cost the department a shocking R163 000 to place just one job seeker. Unemployment is growing fast and, if we include discouraged work seekers, stands at a staggering 38%. With only 13,6 million employed, far fewer people are currently employed than when this government took power in 2009. Government, as represented by this and other departments and its trade union partners or, as the Minister calls them, your "social partners" are destroying jobs fast. Yet, with the right leadership, this department can work much smarter and contribute to the creation of jobs.

Minister, within my limited time, I propose five steps which the DA with its open-opportunity policy would take to reduce unemployment fast. The first step is to stop siding with the big role-players, many with political motives, who only want to push out competition in our markets. Half of our textile workers have lost their jobs since the ANC came to power, most of them in the last 10 years. Most rural textile factories could not cope with the higher wages that big unions and urban factories agreed to. The number of farm workers affected by sectoral determination has already declined from 800 000 in 2009 to 610 000 in 2012 - this while the National Development Plan intended for agriculture to employ a further one million workers. This trend can be turned around, but only if you co-ordinate the actions of various government departments to lower the cost of employment and to attract investment.

Afrikaans:

Agb Minister, die ANC is trots op sy verhouding met Cosatu. My tweede versoek is dat u u invloed sal gebruik op u vennote om met groter verantwoordelikheid op te tree en langtermyn te dink. Slim vakverbonde weet hoe ver hulle werkgewers kan druk en pas hul salaris-eise daarby aan. Onredelike vakverbonde stel eise wat lei tot werksverliese. Ons het juis hierdie week gesien hoedat onredelike salaris-eise die ekonomie kan knou en hoe die waarde van die rand daal.

Verder, hierdie regering het 'n wet aanvaar wat die organiseerders van sportbyeenkomste aanspreeklik hou vir enige wangedrag van toeskouers. Waarom dan die teenstand om vakverbonde aanspreeklik te hou vir skade wat tydens stakings aangerig word? Waarom word hulle toegelaat om wetsgehoorsame mede-Suid-Afrikaners te intimideer? Hoe lank moet ons nog hoor van sterftes wat die direkte gevolg is van intimidasie en kompetisie tussen vakverbonde?

Agb Minister, die beelde van onskuldige straathandelaars wie se stalletjies geplunder word deur mense wat verseker is van 'n maandelikse salaris gee sommige vakverbonde – en veral u sogenaamde vennote – 'n slegte naam. U departement se begroting bied finansiële steun aan vir sommige vakverbondfederasies. Ek glo dit is raadsaam om in die toekoms kontrakte te sluit wat bepaal dat u die geld sal oorbetaal as die betrokke federasie se lede hulle van geweld en intimidasie sal weerhou.

My derde beroep is dat u u kollegas sal versoek om nie politieke uitsprake te maak wat werksgeleenthede in gevaar stel nie. Die mededingendheid van ons arbeidsmark het verswak van die 123ste posisie in 2008 tot die 133ste posisie uit 139 lande in 2011. Ons moet ons entrepreneurs koester en die rooi tapyt vir hulle uitrol, maar wat sien ons van regeringsleiers soos Adjunkminister Marius Fransman en Minister Joemat-Pettersson? Ons entrepreneurs is uitgeskel as slawemeesters en allerhande vloekwoorde toegevoeg. Dit skroom ANC-raadslid Tony Ehrenreich min om oproepe te herhaal dat Suid-Afrikaanse produkte geboikot moet word. Tussen hom en die staatsbefondsde mnr Nosey Pietersen wat beide beweer dat hulle hul vir die belange van die armes beywer, het hulle reeds duisende werksverliese veroorsaak.

English:

The fourth step that the Minister of Labour can take to support economic growth is to further the benefits payable under the Unemployment Insurance Fund. This fund is currently sitting with investments of R80 billion, which is ten times the amount paid out in claims last year. Can you imagine the economic injection and the number of jobs that can be created when this fund and the Compensation Fund start catching up with the backlog of billions in claims? There are huge opportunities for the Compensation Fund to further improve benefits to domestic workers, something which they don't currently enjoy at all.

Minister, each unnecessary import of foreign-produced goods contributes to unemployment. My fifth request therefore is to support local enterprises. Hon Mabasa recently showcased this bag, which was apparently manufactured in Soweto. This bag – and the hon chairperson of the committee referred to the Sheltered Employment Factories – was manufactured in such a factory. However, do you know where this bag, with the logo of the Department of Labour which was handed out at the Employment Equity and Transformation Indaba earlier, was manufactured? It was manufactured in India. [Interjections.] It was probably imported via Waterkloof! I wonder whether this was manufactured in a factory belonging to the Guptas. This, hon Williams, is not patriotism!

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Order, hon members! I am sure you would like to hear the member of your own party speak. Continue.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Whilst this government closes down textile factories that cannot afford to pay minimum wages, it has no scruples to import from countries where employees are earning far less than here.

Mr I M OLLIS: Shocking!

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How can this then be a government that claims that it really cares?

Mr I M OLLIS: It is shocking! You are not very patriotic now!

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Minister, to work, as you put it, tirelessly to ensure work and security, is a non-negotiable. It carries with it so many other benefits. Job creation will open up vast opportunities to achieve employment equity. I therefore call on you to please consider taking these five steps which I have put to you today. Unemployment at 38% is a national crisis. If you ignore this, you may in future not be known as the Minister of Labour, but this department may become the "Department of Unemployment". I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K B MANAMELA /Mia / END OF TAKE

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Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN:

Mr K B MANAMELA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister of Labour, fellow colleagues, Members of Parliament, members of the ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T SNELL): Hon Member, I spoke to you earlier about shouting. I am not going to ask you again. Thank you. You may continue.

Mr K B MANAMELA: Ministers and Deputy Ministers, as we deliberate on this budget of the Department of Labour for the current financial year, we should pause and ponder the significance and role of the department in the current political, economic and social conditions that millions of workers; business; and civil society in general are faced with.

This budget should therefore, in our view, be seen in context. It must be a budget that will locate the Department of Labour as an important role player in social cohesion; economic stability; promoting and supporting entrepreneurs; saving existing jobs and helping in creating new ones; conciliating and arbitrating in labour relations disputes; and profiling workers' rights as human rights, as both the Minister and the chairperson of the committee have indicated.

In that context, thus, the ANC remembers Marikana and hopes that the current chapter of that tragedy will be concluded; justice will be done for them; and that the lives of the 54 people who died then will not be in vain. The farm workers in the Western Cape, in particular De Doorns, did what this committee had anticipated when we went on oversight and witnessed their appalling working and living conditions. They took to the streets in demand for a better life and better wages.

Due to the ripple effects of the global economic crises, and what has been referred to as a double deep recession and depression, we have also witnessed more strikes in support of wage demands, but also we have witnessed lockouts, as workers and bosses deadlocked in negotiations.

This year, various sectors of the economy, including the mining and manufacturing sectors, will be engaged in wage negotiations and unions have already submitted their wage demands. As some have already hastened to condemn the trade union movement for what they referred to as unreasonable demands, we hope that they will also remember and join in condemnation of the massive pays in bonuses and shares pocketed by chief executive officers, CEOs, and shareholders of those companies. Any partisan intervention and commentary which is intended to be framed as antiworkers and antiunions, as if it is illegal to be part or members of the trade union in this country, will not be tolerated.

Rising unemployment, especially youth unemployment, has dominated the social discourse and is regarded as a ticking time bomb. As members of the portfolio committee, we are in unison that the role of the department is very critical in ensuring that it facilitates conditions for people to be employed.

Again, with the Quarterly Labour Force Survey reporting a decline in real employment with the rate of unemployment having risen from 24,9% to 25,2%, every government department, including this one, has to be united in action to restore the hopes of millions that democracy can only work if they also are at work.

Hon Chairperson, in our engagement as political parties in the Portfolio Committee of Labour, we were in unison in our recommendation that the challenges facing our country of inequality, poverty and unemployment, and the role that the department and its agencies have to play, requires an injection of more resources in the coming Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. We will be using our powers as Members of Parliament through the budgetary review process and the newly established Budget Office, to ensure that the department is further resourced in order to fulfil its role in the challenges that face our country.

To be specific, we have recommended that the labour centres of the department need to add, as part of their responsibilities, connecting the unemployed with available jobs. In many cases, people with the requisite skills are not placed in proper jobs because they do not have information about the availability of those jobs. Many entrepreneurs disinvest from the productive sector, arguing that there is a skills shortage, whilst thousands of young and old hold qualifications from sector education and training authority, Setas, further education and training, FET, colleges and universities, and cannot be connected with these entrepreneurs.

During an oversight visit in KwaZulu-Natal, at one of the labour centres, we asked the young people who were there to fill in a form that captures information about their skills, as to what is it that we can do as Members of Parliament, to help facilitate their employment. One of the things which the young person strikingly mentioned is the cost of looking for a job, which starts with buying newspapers daily to search in the jobs section; the travel to get the application forms; the postal costs for these forms; the travel costs to interviews; and the stress they go through waiting to hear whether they have been employed or not. These are some of the challenges that skilled and unemployed people face.

These may be meagre resources for some of us who are sitting here in the House, but these are the real challenges that the young people, in particular out there, are faced with. These are the real challenges that face unemployed young people and require that we expand the responsibilities and tasks allocated to labour centres. I agree with the IFP that we need to have more labour centres in communities where more unemployed people and people who need the services of the labour centres are.

We also have to ensure that we resource these centres with proper information technology, IT, to enable jobs search; distribution of information regarding available jobs; facilities for them to be able to post, fax or email their job applications so that they help the unemployed in their quest to get jobs. Already, more employers and employees are relying on the department so as to connect with each other. There is a cost - which I suppose we have to verify - which was mentioned by the DA, in locating unemployed workers with jobs and connecting them with permanent jobs. This is something that we will have to look into. [Applause.]

There has been a lot of talk around the transformation of the South African labour market. When I say we have to look into that, I meant that we have to check its veracity, because I doubt if government can spend - before you clap hands ... [Laughter.]

There has been a lot of talk around the transformation of the South African labour market, and the need to ensure its flexibility as a means to create more jobs and absorb first time entrants into the labour market. This issue was raised by the hon member from the ACDP. The essence of the submissions made has been that we need to make it easier to hire and fire new entrants into the labour market. If our logic is to create more jobs and ensure that we absorb more young people into the labour market, why should we legislate exploitation and super exploitation by making it easier to fire people?

Our mandate as legislators is to make it easier for employers to hire new entrants into the labour market, not to fire them. Our Constitution, which is the cornerstone of our labour laws, serves as a guarantor for all South Africans to enjoy fair labour practice, and despite its defects, has been hailed as one of the best in the world. To suggest that our role must be to facilitate the firing of workers is basically ridiculous. As the ANC, we have no intention to deviate from the spirit and latter that inspired those who worked tirelessly to ensure that we have a transformed labour market system and labour relations. [Applause.]

Hon Chairperson, there has been widespread criticism on the role played by the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, in building social cohesion and facilitating dialogue amongst major stakeholders in society. We are happy that those who are active at Nedlac have listened to some of these criticisms. Our view is that Nedlac remains a critical institution for social dialogue between civil society, business, labour and government. In the past, major legislation and negotiations on various policies and socioeconomic issues were dealt with at Nedlac, and that function continues to be performed in that institution.

These labour laws that many have subjected to undue criticism, were as a result of the sterling work that Nedlac has done in ensuring that all chambers are agreed on the basic tenets of the protection of worker rights, and the regulation of the labour market. There have been calls from various quarters for an inclusive economic Convention for a Democratic SA, Codesa, which will assess our progress in transforming economic ownership and control since 1994. What better place for such an economic Codesa than at Nedlac?

It is therefore important that all stakeholders do take their legislated responsibilities at Nedlac more seriously and commit to deal with in as much detail, where there are differences, as possible. The manner in which labour disputes have turned violent, and somewhat displayed lack of interest in engagement by social partners, is indicative of the need to revive dialogue amongst major stakeholders in society, with Nedlac playing a central role.

We want to submit, as the ANC, that Nedlac cannot be able to fulfil its founding mandate with the meagre resources that it has been allocated; and thus, we need to review this budget element through further allocation by National Treasury and the adjustment of allocated resources from other agencies.

One of the things that have come out from this debate has been the old issue of the Regulatory Impact Assessment, to be conducted by government, in relation to the labour law. This issue has been raised in the portfolio committee and unfortunately when some of the Members of Parliament were sleeping, we agreed that if either or even the DA wants to conduct a Regulatory Impact Assessment on the labour law, they should do that. The reality is that government has done the Regulatory Impact Assessment report. [Interjections.] On the basis of that Regulatory Impact Assessment report, the Bills which were initially presented at Nedlac were changed in order to suit that Regulatory Impact Assessment. Our continued contribution, at least as the ANC, is mandated not by some bureaucrats locked into an office making Regulatory Impact Assessment, but on the basis of submissions which were made by various stakeholders to the portfolio committee. Those are the people who mandate us and they are going to inform our policy.

Hon members, to come here and complain that the DA is said to be opposing affirmative action and to try and come up with a flimsy defence, it is not about what the policy positions of the DA are; it is about what is happening in practice. Part of the things that the DA has been saying, for some time now, is that there is a created history of the DA and they want to come out of that created history and tell its own story. The reason why you want to tell your own story is because people generally believe that the DA will bring back apartheid. It is not because people dream about that, but it is because of what has been happening in the Western Cape. The composition of the senior management in the Western Cape is still white male dominated. The people have got no choice but to conclude that what is happening in the Western Cape will be replicated throughout the whole country. [Applause.]

If the executive of the DA is a reflection of what was happening in the executive of the apartheid system, pale white male, people have got no choice but to conclude that the DA will bring back apartheid. If in its policy interventions, people are forced to go into the freeway and dump their faeces in protest, because the DA is failing in service delivery in Gugulethu and Khayelitsha, but yet they provide the best of services in Camps Bay and everywhere else, the people have got no choice because that is how the apartheid system has treated them. [Applause.] People will therefore believe that the DA will bring back apartheid.

It is quite funny and I'm quite happy that the DA today has said that they are in support, grudgingly, of the Youth Employment Accord, because we were shocked when the DA issued a statement saying that they oppose the Youth Employment Accord and that they are in favour of the Youth Wage Subsidy. At the same time, when that statement was issued, I was with the leader of the DA youth, who knows what the needs, interests and aspirations of young people are and who appended his signature on the Youth Employment Accord. Because the seniors in the DA want to oppose that which the youth in the DA want, they issued a statement - but also because of this permanent oppositionist character – that says that they don't agree with the Youth Employment Accord, when their youth leader was there with us enjoying the music; singing umshini wam; and also signing the Youth Employment Accord. [Laughter.]

In the portfolio committee, we have received, as part of the recommendations, a turnaround strategy. As members of portfolio committee, with the Minister, and also the director-general, DG, we are in unison that things need to change at the compensation fund. Things cannot go the way in which they are going. We were quite happy and we were not deaf when we received a report that there is a pilot IT project which is in place. On the basis of that pilot project, things are beginning to turn around and we are happy to hear that. We hope that all of these things will lead to change in the lives of the millions of workers who have pinned their hope on the compensation fund.

Hon Kganare, it is one thing to label the National Union of Mineworkers, NUM, as sweetheart unions, and inadvertently embrace in your assertions, illegal ways and means to force employers into a bargaining process. There is a suggestion that the NUM could not get the extra money which Lonmin ultimately offered because lives were being lost and the economy was going down. If you suggest that that is what the NUM and any of the Cosatu unions need to do, and then turn around and say that we cannot be held hostage by populist demands by the NUM, that is actually a contradiction in terms.

Do you support the fact that the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union, Amcu, which advocated privately and publicly, as it is coming out from the commission, for violence targeted at NUM members? Do you advocate that that should be the way in which bargaining processes should be done, on the one hand? You cannot have the one over the other. I think that it is quite unfortunate that we have that kind of a situation.

I hope that when you go to hospital and get treatment from nurses who belong to National Education, Health and Allied Workers' Union, Nehawu, they will give you a good injection that is in line with the sickness that you may be suffering from. [Laughter.] If we begin to narrow down and we want to regulate the political options of each and every South African, including public workers, we have to be very careful about that. In the past, we had a situation wherein political rights of all individuals were being questioned. If you are saying that we need to go back to those days, where we regulate which political parties public officials belong to or which trade unions affiliate or have an alliance with which political party, I think that is quite unfortunate. I think that it is also informed by not only bitterness, but also by jealousy. Jealousy because the same person that you are quoting, hon Willy Madisha, tried - when Cope was beginning to toddle and giving hope to sell-outs and everybody - to form a federation and unions. That thing has failed, and has even reflected in his failure as a Member of Parliament. I think that it is based on that.

More importantly, a lot of workers, employers and businesses have pinned their hopes on the process that is under way between the portfolio committee and that of the various amendments of labour laws. We agree with what hon Minister Pravin Gordhan said yesterday that we need leadership. However, leadership that is underpinned by opportunism; cheap political point scoring; nothing else, but looking at the forthcoming general elections, will never ever take this country anywhere. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR / KC/A N N(ed)/ END OF TAKE

"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,24 Jun 2013,"Take 105 [Old Assembly Main].doc"

"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-105] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"

Mr K B MANAMELA

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chair, firstly, let me thank the hon members for participating in this debate, but it is unfortunate that some of the members do not listen and do not even read the strategic plan of the department. [Interjection.] I think you rather shut up.

Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for a Minister to tell the hon member to shut up, if not, can she please withdraw it?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T SNELL): Hon Minister, could you please withdraw the statement.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I withdraw, House Chair.

IsiZulu:

Thula! [Uhleko.]

English:

House Chairperson, there were issues that were raised particularly by the DA on the closure of the Gauteng labour centres. We will need to gather that information and find out which are those labour centres so that we can follow that up. On the issue raised by hon Mncwango pertaining new labour centres in KwaNongoma, we hope the members of the portfolio committee will support us when we request the Treasury to give us more funding so that we can establish more labour centres.[Applause.]

Hon Chairperson, on the Regulatory Impact Assessment, RIA on the four bills, plus one that are before Parliament, I think, hon members, I am not sure whether you really want the Minister to come and say this is what happening in terms of the RIA report when you tabled those amendments. RIA report was also there. I don't know which RIA report you want. In fact, I hope you are not being misled by the businesses in particular who were always saying we need to start afresh to do RIA but they were part and parcel of those discussions at Nedlac and they did not even raise those issues. I will appeal to the members not to allow themselves to be misled.

Chair, regarding the issue of collective bargaining, I have said we are going to have a collective bargaining indaba. Now, I want to appeal to the members to avail themselves so that they must go and participate there.

Chairperson, to hon Motau, hon Kganare including the hon Van der Westhuizen, it is very problematic when you are not always being told that you are a Shadow Minister, because in terms of being a Shadow Minister you just look like...

IsiZulu:

...isithunzela, into engathi ayinangqondo ebekwa nje laphaya ilokhu ijika ishona le nale ihamba nesithunzi. [Uhleko.]

English:

I think that is the reason why you come here and raise those issues. I am not talking to both of you. I am just talking to these hon members.[Interjections.] In your dreams...[Interjections.]... I therefore request the hon members that maybe we need to continue...

IsiZulu:

...siyophuza ikhofi mhlawumbe ngizokhuluma nani kahle njengoba nicela njalo. Manje sengizovuma-ke ngoba angikaze ngavuma ngaphambilini...

English:

...so that I can guide you. I also appeal to the chairperson of the portfolio committee to co-ordinate or convene a workshop so that the members can be taught about the laws of this country, including the Constitution itself. It is unfortunate that hon Kganare talks about the unions, particularly the federation Cosatu. As hon Manamela has said that when you launched Cope, you said you would...

IsiZulu:

...nizokwenza ukuthi kube nenyunyana yabasebenzi ezoba ngaphansi kukaMhlonishwa u-William Madisha noMhloshishwa u-Sam Shilowa.

English:

It is unfortunate that you do not recognise that you are where you are because the ANC together with its own alliance partners recommended that your skills should be recognised. For example, the former member, Mr Shilowa was just a security person but he ended up being a Cosatu general secretary. Therefore, maybe you are in a better position to say what was happening during those days. Then, it is precisely clear that we were doing the work on your behalf without you having an understanding of what you were doing.

Hon Dudley, unfortunately, it is for the first time to know that you are a member of this committee but I can't even remember you attending the committee meeting. You come here and say I was on holiday during the strike that took place in November in the Western Cape. It is clear that some of you don't understand the international participation of South Africa, particularly International Labour Organisation, ILO, where the Department of Labour is a member state. By then I was attending the ILO governing body and also the round table discussion on social protection and youth employment conference which was held in Paris under the G20 countries. South Africa is the only country that sits there. Unfortunately, if I attend these conferences, I don't go for shopping - maybe you do. You must ask one of your members, who is a former member of the Portfolio Committee of Labour, who participated from day one with all the members who were in Geneva until the last day. Unfortunately, you are not a member of that committee. By the way, you are the ones who support the budget of the Department of Labour and that department also indicates how much we are going to spend in our international programme.

Hon Motau, as well raised the issues related to Minister Nzimande, Minister Pravin Gordhan and Minister Davies; I think he was in the wrong platform at a wrong time. He raised the issue of the compensation fund to be administered by the Treasury. It is clear that you don't even have an understanding that the compensation fund does not come from the MTEF but it is a contribution by the employers specifically for those workers who are injured at work. Those are the things that we have to take you through so that you can have an understanding. It is only the organised labour that can decide who should administer those funds.

Regarding the issue of Marikana, firstly, you must understand the situation in that particular area and what the cause of the unrest was. The unrests were not caused by the organised labour but they were caused by the company itself. By identifying eight workers and promising them that they were going to increase their salaries to R12 500. That is why they were demanding that particular amount. It is very said, hon members, I think you must listen and listen very carefully.[ Interjections.] Hon members, you must be well aware that at Lonmin in particular the CEO is earning R854 000 a month and the rock driller is earning R6 000 [Interjections.] other people that were employed by the subcontractors were even earning less than R5000. That is why we have proposed that we need to deal with the issue of the abusive labour brokers.

IsiZulu:

Okunye Sihlalo weNdlu wukuthi kunezingxoxo eziqhubekayo phakathi kwezinyunyana zemboni yezimayini kanye nazo zonke izinkampani zezimayini...

English:

...in particular when it comes to the stability in the mining sector, the issue of wages ...[Interjection.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T SNELL): Hon Minster, can you kindly wrap up with the next minute or so. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: ...and the living conditions of the mine workers which falls under the Mining Charter that is administered by the hon Minister Suzan Shabangu.

On the issue of De Doorns, I think the members of the DA must have an understanding of the call that was made by the Premier Helen Zille when she said she was unable to even assist those workers when they were protesting. She was calling upon the Minister of Labour to come and assist [Interjections]...But in terms of the living conditions the MEC is responsible and therefore this country must have an understanding that Helen Zille and the MEC for Agriculture don't have a capacity to lead in this particular province.[Applause.]

Finally, I want to say to the workers of this country. When they start with the negotiations they must negotiate peacefully. This includes the employers; they must be honest to each other. They must finalise the negotiations peacefully and we don't expect any course that will lead to strikes by the workers. I also want to appeal to the workers that even if they go on strike they must do it peacefully.

Lastly, let me thank my husband and my family as a whole for their support and also to thank the chairperson and the members of the portfolio committee for making sure that as the department we are always on our toes, including the two members from the DA because they are always there during our strategic planning where we take decisions. But we don't want to say anything about how they behave here because maybe there might be consequences on that. I thank you, House Chairperson.[Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T SNELL): Thank you, hon Minister. Members are reminded that the Assembly will meet at two o'clock and the EPCs on Public Service and Administration and Human Settlements will meet at 15:30 in the Old Assembly Chamber and in the E249 respectively.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 12:12.

GG//LIM CHECKED ZLU// END OF TAKE


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