Hansard: NA: Motion
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 25 Apr 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
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THURSDAY, 25 APRIL 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
__________________________________
The House met at 14:05
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
NOTICES OF MOTION
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START OF DAY
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms D A SCHÄFER: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the abuse of state resources for party-political agendas.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
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Ms D A SCHAFER
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the poor service culture and arrogant attitude of many frontline officers in the immigration and other government departments, as well as SA Airways, SAA, and the implications thereof for foreign and local economic investment in our country. A case in point is the incident involving Mrs Sunduza and many others, including myself.
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
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Mr L S NGONYAMA
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House discusses Transfrontier Park's initiative, assess it and make proposals to improve it in the light of cross border poaching and hunting activities.
Ms P BHENGU
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Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
Ms P BHENGU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates promoting women's access to vital resources such as safe and affordable energy, water and land.
Mr S HUANG
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Ms P BHENGU
Mr S HUANG: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates assessing water allocation to the previously disadvantaged and ensuring that this scarce resource is used equitably and sustainably in order to support the developmental objectives of the country.
Mrs M T KUBAYI
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Mr S HUANG
Mrs M T KUBAYI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates building consensus on how to deal with race, class and gender by reflecting on our development path and our socioeconomic system as a whole.
Mr L W GREYLING
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Mrs M T KUBAYI
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ID:
That the House debates the construction of 9 600 megawatts of new nuclear energy plants as proposed in South Africa's energy plan.
Mr S M MAYATULA
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Mr L W GREYLING
Mr S M MAYATULA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates restructuring the country's science and technology infrastructure to benefit the poor and rural areas.
Adv L H MAX
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Mr S M MAYATULA
Adv L H MAX: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the application of section 42(a)(1) of the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 by the Department of Correctional Services in the Western Cape and how it affects service delivery.
Dr S M VAN DYK
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Adv L H MAX
Dr S M VAN DYK: Geagte Adjunkspeaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat op die volgende sitting van die Huis ek 'n mosie sal voorstel namens die DA:
Dat die Huis 'n debat voer oor die 41% huishoudings in plattelandse munisipale gebiede wat nie toegang tot skoon water het nie.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE / TH (Eng and Afr) / END OF TAKE
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D
VAN DYK
PROFESSOR BERNARD MAKHOSEZWE MAGUBANE'S PASSING ON
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I moved without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes with sadness a great loss in the passing on of one of South Africa's greatest social scientists, Professor Bernard Makhosezwe Magubane, a prominent author, activist and anthropologist, on Friday, 12 April 2013, at the age of 83, at his home in Johannesburg;
(2) further notes that Professor Magubane was a teacher by profession, and due to his passion for education, he progressed in his studies leading him on to the University of Natal and eventually to the United States of America, in 1961 for postgraduate studies in the social sciences;
(3) remembers that Professor Magubane spent his years in exile, where, as a member of the ANC, he played a vital role in the struggle against apartheid, leading the anti-apartheid movement in the USA and beyond;
(4) further remembers that he was an outstanding academic and a leading Marxist intellectual, who had an understanding of and pursued a South African and African history and sociology through Marxism, a journey that shaped him as a leading African intellectual;
(5) recalls that as a result of his outstanding contribution to social science, Professor Magubane was honoured in 1999 by former President Nelson Mandela;
(6) believes that South Africa has lost a true inspirational leader and a great intellectual, and his contribution to the intellectual discourse in South Africa and the world will be felt in many generations to come; and
(7) conveys its deepest condolences to the Magubane family, friends and the ANC and the people of South Africa.
Thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CAPE TOWN OPERA WINS WORLD OPERA AWARD IN LONDON
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that the Cape Town Opera won the chorus category at the inaugural World Opera Awards in London on 22 April 2013, beating the Helikon Opera from Moscow, the Netherlands Opera and Germany's Bayreuth Festival chorus;
(2) also notes that an independent panel of industry experts judged the inaugural awards and that it is the first international platform to recognise the achievements of performers, producers and teams that work in opera;
(3) acknowledges the importance of the arts in promoting the cultures and heritage of South Africa and showcasing our talent to international audiences; and
(4) congratulates the Cape Town Opera for their remarkable achievements and wish them well for the future.
Agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
PARLIAMENT TO ESTABLISH GLOBE CHAPTER
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that Parliament agreed to the establishment of a Globe Chapter in Parliament in June 2011 upon the adoption of the report of the parliamentary delegation to the 16th Conference of the Parties, Cop16, meeting held in Cancun, Mexico, from 29 November to 10 December 2010;
(2) recalls that Parliament hosted the National Consultative Seminar on Climate Change from 28 until 29 October 2011, and later hosted the Globe Legislatures Forum meeting on 3 December 2011, prior to Cop17 and both reports were considered and adopted by the House;
(3) further recognises that the Globe Chapter will play a critical role in strengthening legislative action on climate change by developing a set of legislative principles and supporting Globe International members in advancing such principles; and
(4) resolves that, subject to the concurrence of the NCOP, the Globe Chapter be recognised as a focus group of the Parliamentary Group on International Relations, PGIR.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SUSPENSION OF RULE 23(2):SITTING OF THE HOUSE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That, notwithstanding the hours of sitting of the House as provided for in Rule 23(2), the House may sit in plenary or extended public committees, at times agreed to by the National Assembly Programme Committee for the period 25 April to 21 June 2013.
I thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Agreed to.
Ms M N PHALISO / GC / END OF TAKE
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE KHOI AND THE SAN
(Member Statement)
Me M N PHALISO (ANC): Adjunkspeaker, ek is vandag trots om te praat oor die Khoi en San gesprekke, 'n geskiedkundige oomblik. Die ANC is trots op die sukses van die tweedaagse dialoog wat deur omtrent 1 000 Khoi en San verteenwoordiges en belanghebbendes onlangs in Kimberley in die Noord-Kaap bygewoon is. Hierdie dialoog is die eerste praktiese stap in die uitvoering van President Zuma se aankondiging tydens sy staatsrede vanjaar, dat die regering die heropening van die eisprosesse vir diegene wat nie eise teen 31 Desember 1998 ingedien het nie, oorweeg.
President Zuma het gesê dat die regering ook oorweeg om uitsonderings te maak ten opsigte van die 19 Junie 1913-afsnypunt, ten einde voorsiening te maak vir afstammelinge van Khoi en San se eise ten opsigte van erfenisgebiede en geskiedkundige landmerke.
Die ANC glo dat die onlangse gesprekke tussen die Khoi en die San in Kimberley 'n epiese geskiedkundige oomblik is. Dit herbevestig die regering se verbintenis om die Khoi en San gemeenskappe se belange en behoeftes aan te spreek en nasiebou te bevorder. Deelname aan die samesprekings sal bydra tot die regering se verwerking van die Khoi en San-afstammelinge se grondeise. Baie dankie. [Applous.]
Dr W G JAMES (DA)
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Mr M N PHALISO (ANC)
SIGNIFICANT GROWTH SHOWN BY THE DA IN BY-ELECTIONS
(Member Statement)
Dr W G JAMES (DA): Deputy Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to share with you the fact that the DA shows significant growth in by-elections it contested across South Africa yesterday. We retained all five DA wards and made significant inroads in the three ANC-held wards we contested. During the last month our structures in these ANC wards have been campaigning with material related to the Know Your DA campaign. This campaign tells the story of how DA leaders, past and present, opposed apartheid. [Interjections.]
The results show that the Know Your DA campaign is being positively received and shifting votes. The following are examples.
In Metsimaholo ward 10, Free State, the DA grew its support by 17 percentage points, from 11% in 2011 to 28%. [Applause.]
In Greater Tzaneen ward 24, Limpopo, the DA grew its support by nine percentage points, from 5% in 2011 to 14%. [Applause.]
In Makhuduthamaga ward 27, Limpopo, the DA grew its support by 24 percentage points, from 2% in 2011 to 26%.
This growth in former ANC strongholds bodes well for the DA's prospects at the national and provincial elections to be held next year, as more and more people come to believe in the DA's philosophy of the open-opportunity society for all. We await congratulations from the ANC. Thank you. [Time has expired.].
Mr B M BHANGA (Cope)
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Dr W G JAMES (DA)
THE GOVERNMENT'S LACK OF VISION AND SERIOUSNESS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
(Member Statement)
Mr B M BHANGA (Cope): Deputy Speaker, Cope is appalled at the government's lack of vision and seriousness in the Department of Education because it had run out of ideas to turn around the department. This has rubbed off on the alliance unions leading to what has now become a state of confusionist avatars.
The behaviour of Sadtu has shown total undermining of the rights of the child to be educated. As the Sadtu strike was going on, former model C schools remained unaffected.
South African children, mostly township children in poor areas who already suffer from high teacher absenteeism and sexual harassment in their schools, remain at the receiving end.
We call upon the union federations who lead a large majority of their members who are from these constituencies to show maturity and leadership.
Cope has observed the worrying trend which began as far back as Naledi Pando's leadership. [Interjections.]. Together with its alliance partners in the ANC, the union movement has become politicised and has lost the plot.
Out of desperation Sadtu has resorted to using unsuspecting school children as cannon fodder and human shields...
Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member has no respect for the hon Pando. He calls her as if she is a friend.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We want to submit that it is not a point of order. The ANC should stop disrupting member statements.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what do you call members in this House?
Mr B M BHANGA: Deputy Speaker, hon member.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you just do that to hon Pando.
Mr B M BHANGA: Hon Pando.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you very much. [Laughter.]
Mr B M BHANGA: Out of desperation Sadtu has resorted to using unsuspecting school children as cannon fodder and human shields to cover for their ineptitude and the blatant politicking. This is how confusionist avatars work.
If Sadtu, like we have discovered, coming out of the tragedy at Marikana, De Doorns, the gold mines, are no longer focused on its core business and instead has made battle grounds out of its offices to fight for political recognition and influence, then we are on dangerous grounds. [Time has expired.]
Ms H C MGABADELI / src / END OF TAKE
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Mr B M BHANGA
THE SHOOTING OF AN ELDERLY WOMAN IN LINDELANI
(Member's Statement)
Ms H C MGABADELI (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC condemns the recent killing of an elderly woman and two Fidelity security guards during a robbery at the Lindelani community hall pension pay point near Ntuzuma, in Durban. The elderly woman queuing for her monthly grant unwittingly ran into a hail of bullets during an armed robbery because she was partially blind and became a victim of the ruthless criminals. This shocking conduct of criminality can only be carried out by elements that do not deserve to be in the midst of civilised people. We call on all citizens of Lindelani to join hands with the police to bring the criminals to book.
It is important to highlight the need to tighten judicial penalties for people who are bent on undermining public safety and do not value the lives of others. We are convinced that structures like community policing forums need to be strengthened and resourced to ensure that such acts are detected beforehand. Let us in the tradition of street committees ensure that each community has a visible and effective forum.
The ANC conveys condolences to the bereaved and wishes a speedy recovery to those injured during the shooting. [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
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Ms H C MGABADELI
WASTEFUL EXPENDITURE BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS' ON BUDGET ALLOCATIONS
(Member's Statement)
Mr A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Deputy Speaker, in just over a week, departments will be trying to justify what they have done with the budgets allocated to them in the previous financial year, with passionate pleas for increases in this year's budgets.
One wonders how departments can request more money when RDP houses, built and ready for use are constantly being demolished due to the shoddiness of the work done. We have seen this happening in the Free State and KwaZulu-Natal. This is an example of wastefulness which has come to characterise all the three spheres of government.
Government departments seem to have lost touch with reality when it comes to understanding the true impact that wasted expenditure has on service delivery. I thank you.
Mr S Z NTAPANE
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Mr A M MPONTSHANE
SADTU'S DECEITFUL ACT
(Member's Statement)
Mr S Z NTAPANE (UDM): Hon Deputy Speaker, yesterday witnessed deceitful sins where the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, encouraged learners to participate in their march to Parliament, demanding the resignation of Minister Angie Motshekga. This shameful act showed once more that Sadtu has no regard for the interests of black pupils in particular. The majority of the pupils who participated in the march were from the township schools. This means that our children, whose schooling is already poor, will even be worse off.
In the past, Sadtu had many opportunities to genuinely march and mobilise society against the poor state of our education system; for example, the Limpopo textbooks debacle, but it did not do so. Now that the dysfunction in the Department of Education affects their pockets due to its unitary decision to withdraw from a collective bargaining agreement that sets out tariffs for the setting and marking of matric examinations, it mobilises against the system; and in the process using our children as pawns in the ruling alliance's internal power struggles. The UDM condemns this deceitful act in the strongest possible terms. Thank you.
Ms P MADUNA-PETERSON
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Mr S Z NTAPANE
THE NEWLY BUILT TSAKANE FIRE STATION
(Member's Statement)
Ms P MADUNA-PETERSON (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the newly built fire station at Tsakane, which is staffed with two fire engines and two ambulances. The station will also serve places like Kwathema, Duduza and other surrounding places.
The residents of Tsakane had difficulty accessing these services prior to the completion of the new fire station, and used to access such services from Kempton Park. However, the completion of a fully-fledged fire station has reduced the response time to attend to fire and other disaster incidences which plagued the community in Tsakane.
This initiative is an indication that the ANC is committed to ensuring that local government understands the fundamentals of serving communities, and that it is able to address the challenges facing them more effectively and efficiently. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY / Mpho/.../TM / END OF TAKE
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MS P MADUNA
BENEFITS OF TERTIARY EDUCATION
(Member's Statement)
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Hon Deputy Speaker, the popular view that possession of a university degree no longer guarantees success in the job market, it turns out, is quite untrue. A recent study commissioned by the Centre for Development and Enterprise, CDE, found that very few people with university degrees are unemployed and that any post-school qualification increases job prospects.
The number of degreed graduates in the labour force has more than doubled in the last 15 years and most of the growth has been in the private sector. South Africa's employers are still desperate for skills, and business is not reluctant to hire graduates. Economic growth in South Africa will necessitate employment of additional large numbers of skilled immigrants to meet the country's skills shortage. The ACDP notes the CDE recommendation that private university education be expanded. This would follow the example of Brazil, where hundreds of private institutes have been opened for tertiary-level education and training. The ACDP urges government to seriously consider the possibilities for positive growth contained in these findings, and encourages learners to strive for that university degree. Thank you.
MRS A STEYN
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MRS C DUDLEY
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'S ROLE IN WESTERN CAPE FARM UNREST
(Member's Statement)
Mrs A STEYN (DA): Hon Deputy Speaker, in a reply to a DA parliamentary question yesterday, the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the hon Tina Joemat-Pettersson, unashamedly revealed that her department paid R4,1 million to Nosey Pieterse's the Black Association of the Wine and Spirits Industry. Nosey Pieterse was at the forefront of the Western Cape farm unrest.
In another reply yesterday, the Minister refused to reveal what was in the R10 million's worth of food parcels her department distributed during the unrest, or whether they were actually delivered to the respective parties. As more information on the devastating farm unrest in the Western Cape comes to light, it is evident that this unrest was politically motivated by the ANC and its union partners in an attempt to undermine the excellent work done by the DA-led provincial and local governments. [Interjections.]
How many scandals and how many millions of rand does it take for a Minister to be held accountable? The DA has approached the Public Protector and the Auditor-General to investigate the conduct of Minister Joemat-Pettersson and her department, adding another investigation to a long list of investigations. [Applause.]
MRS W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN
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MRS A STEYN
GOLDEN JUBILEE OF THE ORGANISATION OF AFRICAN UNITY
(Member's Statement)
Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC joins other African leaders in the commencement of the celebrations marking the golden jubilee of the Organisation of African Unity, OAU, on Monday, 8 April 2013, in Addis Ababa.
The year-long plan for the OAU/African Union, AU, 50th anniversary celebrations also coincides with the 10th anniversary of the existence of the AU, which was constituted to promote an integrated, prosperous and peaceful Africa. This will culminate in the main celebratory event which is to be held from 19 to 27 May this year.
The celebrations for each month will focus on various themes addressing specific areas of progress and challenges on the continent. These include priority areas, such as women empowerment, health, education, peace and security, governance and democracy, and food security. Furthermore, the celebrations are geared at mobilising African citizens on the continent and the diaspora to promote an integrated, prosperous and peaceful Africa, driven by its own citizens and representing a dynamic force in the global arena. These celebrations will also assist in determining the extent to which Pan-African values have been promoted.
The ANC, therefore calls upon government, civil society and other stakeholders to join the celebrations, so that all of us in unison, can celebrate the golden jubilee of the OAU/AU. I thank you. [Applause.]
MR L RAMATLAKANE
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MRS W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN
CONCERNS OVER THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PLAN
(Member's Statement)
Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Cope): Deputy Speaker, we are very concerned on this side of the House. During the struggle against apartheid, in terms of the definition of blacks, it was always an inclusive term. Black means African, coloured and Indian. We are worried today that, as this is being implemented, particularly in the Western Cape, it seems to be a matter that goes against the Constitution. In terms of correctional services and the implementation of the affirmative action plan, it is actually taking us back, in terms of implementation and realising the requirement of the Constitution in terms of its provisions. We are asking that the implication of this in the implementation of it has serious consequences on the nation-building project. From this side of the House – I see the Minister is shaking her head – we want to see some action that addresses this particular concern. [Interjections.]
MRS M C MOHALE /Robyn/ END OF TAKE
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MR L RAMATLAKANE
HLUVUKANI KHUBU PIGGERY CO-OPERATIVE IN LIMPOPO
(Member's Statement)
Ms M C MOHALE (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the initiative of the unemployed Nwamitwa villagers who have combined their resources and, with their determination, have set up the Hluvukani Khubu Piggery Co-operative in Limpopo in order to earn an income. With the help and support of the Limpopo Department of Agriculture, they have learned how to construct a pigsty and have improved their knowledge on feedstock, immunisation and other important aspects of pig farming. Currently, there are seven members who farm about 100 large white pigs. Adult pigs are sold to residents and local abattoirs for up to R1 500 per animal. With the money they are making, they are able to buy food and school uniforms for their children.
The ANC is inspired by this project, and is encouraging emerging farmers to form co-operatives, so that they can collectively become major players in the farming business, and can be easily linked as a collective to other farmers and the markets. I thank you.
MR S C MOTAU
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MS M C MOHALE
PROBLEMS AT LABOUR CENTRES
(Member's Statement)
Mr S C MOTAU (DA): Deputy Speaker, decay has infested some labour centres around the country, and the DA calls on the Minister of Labour, Mildred Oliphant, to intervene urgently to correct the ills bedevilling service delivery at the centres to the frustration of many people seeking help there. In Gauteng, the Sebokeng Labour Centre has been closed for some time, allegedly for nonpayment of rent, and I show you here a picture of a line of people in the street. This is unacceptable. If it is true, heads must roll.
Just outside Cape Town, the Bellville Labour Centre is failing to meet its obligations to the public, who have to make repeated trips to the centre without being assisted, due to one failure or the other – if the IT system is not working, then it is something else. In KwaZulu-Natal, the Park Rynie visiting point has been shut for months. When the Portfolio Committee on Labour did an oversight visit there at the end of January this year, the water to the office had been disconnected and the electricity had been disconnected six months earlier due to nonpayment.
The DA is deeply concerned about the plight of the people who go to these centres and depend on them for critical services. These people are being disadvantaged, and they continue to be disadvantaged. We appeal to the Minister to urgently take action to make sure that the situation is redressed. Thank you.
MS P N DANIELS
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MR S C MOTAU
COMMEMORATING 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF CHRIS HANI'S DEATH
(Member's Statement)
Ms P N DANIELS (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, on 10 April this year, the ANC commemorated the 20th anniversary of the death of Chris Hani, who was assassinated on the eve of our first democratic national elections by the right-wingers outside his house in Dawn Park. His death robbed us of a legend who embodied the undying resolve to reverse the injustices of the past. His dedication and commitment to the struggle for freedom, equality, justice, peace and democracy, and his bravery and leadership inspired many to rise up against the apartheid regime to fight for our liberation. He was a disciplined cadre who believed in unity and selflessness.
We call on all South Africans as they pay homage to this son of the South African soil to embrace his ideals and to recommit themselves to a South Africa and an Africa all of us would be proud of. Comrade Chris Hani will remain a source of inspiration to many South Africans and to our cadres, in particular. The ideals he lived for are the ideals that inspire us as we relentlessly pursue the struggle for economic emancipation, nonracialism, and a better life for all South Africans.
We take this moment of remembrance as a moment to dedicate ourselves to advancing the national democratic revolution and to building a better life for all. I thank you. [Applause.]
MR J M MATSHOBA
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MS P N DANIELS
SONATA PRIMARY SCHOOL IN LIBODE, EASTERN CAPE
(Member's Statement)
Mr J M MATSHOBA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the partnership between the government and the private sector, which has resulted in AngloGold Ashanti investing and assisting government's drive to eradicate mud schools and inappropriate and unsafe structures.
The opening of Sonata Primary School in Libode in the Eastern Cape is one such example of the success stories of the public and private sector partnership. The intervention of the mining group, AngloGold Ashanti, has transformed the dilapidated mud structure of Sonata Primary School into a well-developed school with six new classrooms, an administration block, 12 toilets, where there were none, and a soup kitchen, to the value of R2,2 million. The new classrooms, administration block and toilets will improve the quality of life and education of the children and teachers. Sonata Primary School in Libode in the Eastern Cape will no longer have to endure heavy rains and storms with only a leaking roof as protection – a situation which made it almost impossible to learn.
The ANC calls for more partners from the private sector to emulate this initiative and to partner with government in investing in school infrastructure to improve the country's education. I thank you.
MINISTERS' RESPONSES (MINISTER DAVIES)/ /Robyn/END OF TAKE
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MEMBER'S STATEMEMTS
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'S ROLE IN WESTERN CAPE FARM UNREST SIGNIFICANT GROWTH SHOWN BY THE DA IN BY-ELECTIONS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Deputy Speaker, I want to respond to the statement made by the hon member, in my capacity as a constituency Member of Parliament, MP, deployed in the Dedoorens area, about how the strikes that took place there, are politically motivated and are conspiracies to undermine the good governance of the DA in the Western Cape. What I want to say is that, it is exactly that kind of attitude which counts the DA out of any kind of project to try to place the agricultural sector on the footing of the shared prosperous future. It is exactly that kind of attitude which makes it impossible for them to understand that what we are talking about is not a conspiracy.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Davies, there is a point of order.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: It is not really a point of order I suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, however, let him have it. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it a point of order?
Dr C P MULDER: I believe so, yes, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the point of order?
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, firstly, the Minister started by saying that he is addressing the matter as a Member of Parliament in his constituency capacity not as the Minister. Rules of this House do not make provision for MPs to react on statements on behalf of their constituencies. Secondly, hon Deputy Speaker, is that the issue the Minister is referring to is squarely on the terrain of the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and fisheries. That Minister is in the House, she indicated that she would like to respond to member's statements and I think that is what should be done. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Let me then address you in my capacity as part of the Deputy President's team that is looking for solutions to the crisis in the agricultural sector, as the Minister in that regard. [Applause.] Let me say that it is precisely that kind of analysis which I think is preventing the DA from being part of the solution because the fact of the matter is that this was the major wake-up call for us to need to reposition the agricultural sector around the shared future which includes improving the conditions of life and of labour of those workers that have been living in dire conditions. I think that unless you recognise that, that is the reality we are dealing with, you are not part of the solution but part of the problem.
I also want to refer to what the hon Wilmot James said. He told us that the DA was going around with its "Know Your DA" campaign. Now what I want to ask is that, is this campaign informing the public of South Africa about the contribution which the core ward that have been deployed here in Parliament made in the struggle about apartheid? I want to suggest that it seems to me that many of the people who were sitting there when it came to the struggle against apartheid have much to be modest about and several of them have got quite a lot to be embarrassed about. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 278
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'S ROLE IN WESTERN CAPE FARM UNREST
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, no amount of denial or blaming will cover up the fact that the DA does not deliver services to farm workers nor to the rural poor in the Western Cape. The highest incidents of diseases in Dedoorens are malnutrition, kwashiorkor and scurvy. The only place in the world where you still get ...
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, may I address you on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order now?
Mrs S V KALYAN: I would like to know as to which statement is the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries referring to? Because in the ministerial responses the Ministers are suppose to respond to statements made by members. Now, I would like to know as to which member referred to the ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She is responding on agriculture.
Mrs S V KALYAN: ... to which member is she responding to, because there was not a statement on that subject?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Continue Minister.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: ... this confirms the fact that the DA is totally in denial and do not believe that services should be rendered to farm workers and that the strike was not just about salaries, but was about service delivery. If they can start delivering services to farm workers, there will be a better situation in the Western Cape.
The highest incidents of scurvy, malnutrition and kwashiorkor are in your province and amongst farm workers. It is a shame that this country has a disease called scurvy amongst farm workers. The DA and its farm owner population should take a look at themselves and feel proud to have scurvy, which has been eradicated in the world yet it is still prevalent in the Western Cape on the farms. I will not retreat nor keep quite and will continue funding NGOs to help farm workers in the Western Cape. [Applause.] Why? In 2010 we had a Farm Workers Summit in the Western Cape where the plight of farm workers was highlighted in this province. The Premier of the Western Cape spoke there yet the farmers are still in denial. AgriSA walked out of that Farm Workers Summit. From 2010, I have consistently warned your MEC that there is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode amongst farm workers in the Western Cape. You are condescending, demining and you are racist towards farm workers. We have allocated ... please!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, your time is up now.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: In future please ask if we are still allocated ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, your time is up. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 278
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
SIGNIFICANT GROWTH SHOWN BY THE DA IN BY-ELECTION
SADT'S DECEITFUL ACT
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the attempt to claim the anti-apartheid struggle credentials on the part of the DA is increasingly becoming laughable. They know well that their party was established after we had achieved freedom and not before. [Applause.] What they did, was allow us to wage the struggle and then they formed a party and then got into Parliament after we fought hard at the doors of Parliament, and then several years later suddenly attempt to get a mantle of freedom fighter. We understand history and we know that such mantles are not won by rhetoric but won by struggle.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think one would agree with hon members that have referred to the matter of the action by SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, that indeed we are troubled by the impact on learning in our country and all of us should be equally troubled. I know that the Minister of Basic Education is ceased with this matter and working hard to find the solution along with several other colleagues. However, I would say we will have succeeded in showing our commitment to education when it becomes a subject of concern for all of us.
I would like to express my admiration to the children at a high school in Protea North, yesterday who ensured that they studied the whole day and supported each other. [Applause.] Those are young people who understand the meaning of what one derives from education. I also thank the parents who went to some schools and sat with children and helped them with reading. We are beginning to see a commitment and recognition by the nation of South Africa, that all of us together must regard education as the key instrument for achieving transformation in our country. If we could get to a point where we do not make statements in celebration of what happened, but calling on all of us to regard education as an essential service in the context of changing the lives of our people, then I think we would have won a great victory in education. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES / AZM MNGUNI/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 279
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 May 2013,"Take 279 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Apr 2013,"[Take-279] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gs].doc"
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
CONCERNS OVER THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PLAN
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, we would like to invite the hon Ramatlakane to continue being committed to a nonracial, nonsexist and united South Africa. [Interjections.] No where in the Employment Equity Act does it say that there shall be any ethnic group preference area. All people are going to have equal access to promotion everywhere.
To this end, I have established a joint task team made up of the Department of Correctional Services, Popcru and the Public Servants Association, PSA. We asked them to submit their agreed positions by 15 March. They then asked me to postpone that submission to 15 June. That is where this matter stands currently. It doesn't require the hon Ramatlakane, or those six guys who went to court moving away from the PSA's position which is dealing with this matter and instead going to submit the matter in court. That is not going to be rejected; it is a matter that is going to be agreed to by Popcru, PSA and everybody else concerned so that this matter is addressed. Therefore it is not a politicking matter. It is a serious, solid matter and it is going to be addressed as such. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 279
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
WASTEFUL EXPENDITURE BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS ON BUDGET ALLOCATIONS
(Minister's Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Speaker, I would like to respond to the statement made by hon Mpontshane. I would also like to assure the member that the houses that we demolished were of bad quality. We no longer build shoddy houses; we are building quality houses. The programme of demolishing houses is part of the department's ratification programme.
We have mentioned it, in this House, several times that we are going to demolish all the houses that are badly built and ensure that our people get houses of good quality, because we want to bring back the dignity of our people. That is the programme of government. The ANC government is committed in bringing back the dignity of our people by giving them quality homes. It is not a waste of money but it is an assurance to our people that we care for them. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 279
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE KHOI AND THE SAN
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the President of the Republic in his interactions with the Khoi and San leadership, committed to an inclusive process, which will then ensure that they participate in the transformation of our country. In that regard, during the state of the nation address this year, the President announced that government has decided to reopen land claims generally, but specifically he said that government has decided to explore exceptions to the 1913 cut-off date, to accommodate the descendants of the Khoi and San, heritage sites, and historical land marks.
So, in that context, I thank the hon member of the ANC for appreciating this step taken by government. It is a process which we hope will culminate in this House debating those exceptions to the cut-off date of 1913. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: we want to thank you for having allowed the Ministers to respond. I just want to place on record that it was only in the respect of the last two Ministers who kept the time. We would appreciate it if you will also apply the rule of time rigidly as you do with members in the House. Thank you. [Interjections.]
FIRST ORDER OF THE DAY / EKS/LIM CHECKED// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 280
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Apr 2013,"Take 280 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Apr 2013,"[Take-280] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gs].doc"
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
PROTECTION OF STATE INFORMATION BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Ad Hoc Committee on Protection of Information Bill)
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, fellow South Africans, today, as we debate to adopt the Protection of State Information Bill during the week of the Freedom Day, we are confident that it has addressed the concerns of our people as we continue to uphold that the power belongs to them.
The main objectives of the Bill remains, firstly, to protect valuable state information against alteration, loss or destruction which will ensure that our citizens are not denied their rights. The Bill, for example, protects people from being married by people they don't know or that their companies are highjacked. Secondly, is to provide for sensitive information, classification, reclassification and declassification which will protect it while it's sensitive and later enable our people access through a declassification system which we are introducing. Thirdly, it aims to repeal the apartheid's Protection of Information Act of 1982 that remains uncomfortable in our statutes book today. Lastly, is to criminalise espionage and hostile activities and improve the security of the Republic from attempts of making it a banana republic.
Hon members, it bears repeating that the Bill was subjected to public and extensive amendments or even redrafting by the National Assembly committee after listening to the calls and demands of our people. These major changes were supported by all the parties, except for few clauses which were related for a more public interest or public domain defence clauses. Furthermore, the NCOP ad hoc committee innovated and found new ways of bridging this gap. If you look at section 41 of the Bill today, whistle-blowers are even more protected. The acts of corruption are criminalised. So, there is no one who can hide corruption through this Act.
The National Assembly ad hoc committee has again reconsidered the Bill and amendments from the NCOP which were adopted after deliberations. By all standards and accounts, this Bill now fully addresses all legitimate concerns raised by the public. It is an immensely improved Bill despite the protestation you may find today. We did this because we are a caring government as the President has indicated during the state of the nation address this year.
What actually remains at the heart of our differences appears to be more of policy preferences which may, in our view, be portrayed by others as constitutional concerns.
The Protection of State Information Bill seeks to strengthen our democracy while balancing transparency and protecting our national security and national interests. I thus call on all the members of this House to support the Bill. I thank you very much.
Mr C V BURGESS /Arnold/ GC / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 281
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr C V BURGESS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, we may be repeating ourselves here during the course of this debate, but there are some people who are still very confused about this Bill. So, you must forgive us if we repeat ourselves.
Allow me to quickly remind the House of the history and the road that the Bill has followed. In 2008, the first version of the Bill was introduced to Parliament as the Protection of State Information Bill by the then Minister for Intelligence, Mr Ronnie Kasrils. Public hearings were held but the Bill was subsequently withdrawn in October 2008 when Minister Cwele became the Minister.
A new and much improved version of the Protection of State Information Bill was reintroduced to Parliament by the Minister of State Security in March 2010. Public hearings were held in June after the 2010 Fifa World Cup. During this period, the Bill was renamed as the Protection of State Information Bill.
In September 2011, the National Assembly's ad hoc committee finally completed its work on the Bill. In November 2011, the Bill was referred to the NCOP for concurrence and an ad hoc committee was appointed to process it. I must remind the House that the NCOP's ad hoc committee also held public hearings. The Bill, subject to proposed amendments, was passed in the NCOP on 29 November 2012.
On Tuesday, 26 February 2013, this House, by resolution, re-established the ad hoc committee which had originally processed the Bill in order to consider it with the proposed amendments of the NCOP and to report to the House by 20 June 2013. The committee met and considered the Bill and its additional proposed amendments, put forward by the DA. These DA proposed amendments were rejected. The ad hoc committee also considered the NCOP's proposed amendments to the Bill, referred to the committee by the House.
On Monday, 22 April 2013, the committee unanimously accepted the NCOP's proposed amendments to the Bill. Let me add that all parties present, agreed that the NCOP's proposed amendments could be incorporated into the Protection of State Information Bill. However, the DA, ACDP and Cope requested that it should be noted that they were not in favour of the Bill. The committee's report accordingly reflects these objections. This is the short and what may appear to be a lengthy history of the Protection of State Information Bill in more than five years in Parliament.
Please permit me now to briefly remind the hon members of the substance of the Bill. The hon Minister has already touched on this matter. I have said that it is necessary that some of the hon members hear this again.
The Bill focuses on two types of state information and provides for the protection thereof. These are valuable and sensitive information. Sensitive information must be classified as either confidential, secret or top secret, in order to protect it from unlawful disclosure. Furthermore, the Bill creates offences in the event that valuable or sensitive information is not protected or if disclosed, in the manner set out in the Bill. The Bill also repeals the old apartheid Protection of Information Act, Act 84 of 1982.
Let me warn the House that the Protection of State Information Bill has the tendency to seriously affect the emotions and the thinking of reasonable people. They then start to behave incoherently, funny and saying strange things that are inconsistent with the behaviour of ordinary and sane people. It is amazing to observe this transformation - and you will soon see for yourself. I also had to fight to hold back my tears when the committee finally completed its work a few days ago. This is how the Bill has touched some of us. [Interjection.] You see what I've said, hon Deputy Speaker, there it is now. [Laughter.] It will get worse as I go along [Laughter.] It's going to get much worse by the time we finish.
Some of the strange behaviour that we see and which will confuse my comrades in the ANC is that there are people and organisations that claim to speak on behalf of the people of South Africa when they attack the Bill. [Applause.] They say that people don't want this Bill. They say many funny things about the Bill. But they always say the people don't want the Bill. Hon Deputy Speaker, please help the misinformed. You have the records of all the elections held in our country during the democratic era. The results are public. It's not classified.
Is it not the ANC that has won two thirds of the Votes at every election? [Interjection.] Is it not the ANC that represents the majority of the people of the Republic of South Africa in this House? Is it not the ANC that has over a million members and on a day-to-day basis members and people rush to join the organisation? [Interjection.]
The public participations and consultations that were followed when processing the Bill cannot be equated to anything that this Parliament has experienced before. This was driven by the ANC. Let it not be said that we did not listen. Let it not be said that where we had to make meaningful changes, we hesitated. The ANC listened to the people's voices. We made so many changes that the Bill is now like a newborn child. This is what the ANC did.
As I have said earlier, this Bill has driven people to say weird things that are simply not true. They even call the Bill the secrecy bill. They don't know that the name is the Protection of State Information Bill. Most of them have never read the Bill. They always talk on TV and radios. When they talk it is quite clear that they've never read the Bill. They still complain about the old Bill. They appear to be unaware that the Bill that this House is considering today is a born-again Bill. It is a new Bill with many hundreds of changes that were driven by the ANC government. [Applause.]
The ANC accepts that there were many interested individuals, organisations, political parties and nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, who have an interest in testing the constitutionality of the Bill. The threat of a legal challenge to the constitutionality of the Bill is their right. It's a right enshrined in our Constitution. Why must the ANC be scared? You can go to court. We accept that you can go to court and it's your right. There's no need to be scared of the Constitution; but don't use it as a threat. Don't use it as a threat. Don't threaten the ANC and say you will go to court.
What we are saying is that we have consulted extensively in the committees on the legality and constitutionality of the Bill. We have followed each and every step. As a consequence, we are satisfied that the Bill is in line with the Constitution. However, the manner in which the threat to legal action is expressed, is disturbing. It is said that this open democratic process has come to a conclusion. As Parliament, as the ANC and as government, there are still those who will not accept that we have shown bona fides in the manner in which we have dealt with this Bill.
As the ANC, we did and gave so much, but there is simply no appreciation, credit and recognition for what we have done. [Interjection.] You see what I said. The people start to shake. [Interjection.] This thing has a very negative effect. [Interjection.] In the ad hoc committee, we were the first to acknowledge the contributions made by our colleagues in the opposition parties. We have said before that they have worked hard and that they have many valuable inputs that were incorporated into the Bill.
With all due respect, I would like to call on the opposition parties who serve in the committee to be honest and tell the nation the truth. Tell the nation of the goodwill and understanding that the ANC showed while this Bill was being processed through Parliament
There is a story that needs to be told and retold. Listen carefully though, these people are already unstable. [Laughter.] The Bill originally applied to all organs of state. This application clause resulted in much criticism. People became unstable and went mad. You couldn't understand them. It was at this early stage that we noticed that some people were emotionally affected by the Bill. Their reasoning became faulty. We listened, received submissions, consulted and in a responsible manner, the ANC agreed to restrict the application of the Bill to the security forces referred to in Chapter 11 of our Constitution. We changed it, that's how reasonable people behave. [Applause.] That's how the ANC behaves. We changed it. [Interjections.] Listen! The ANC behaves reasonably.
This was a monumental change in the Bill. The hon members here will agree with me. It was monumental. It means that the Bill no longer applies to municipalities and other departments, but only applies to the police, defence force and civilian intelligence and not to any other organs of state. What people are saying on TV is that all the organs of state and the classified organs do not apply to them.
The point is that very little was said. No credit and no acknowledgement of this very important amendment was effected to the Bill. [Interjection.] There they go! You see? [Laughter.] The Protection of State Information Bill taught us something. Instead, I get anonymous phone calls; anonymous short message services, SMSs, and vulgar stuff threatening my life and that of my family. I don't know where it comes from. It shows how unreasonable it is that when you are dealing with legislation and people are threatening your life ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The ANC supports the BilL.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION / MS .../TM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 282
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,29 Apr 2013,"Take 282 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Apr 2013,"[Take-282] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gs].doc"
Mr C V BURGESS
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the fight is not over. I will tell you which fight. Just over one year ago, this House was faced with the piece of legislation that threatened our democracy's foundational values of freedom and openness. In response to that threat, Parliament sprung into life. With unprecedented opposition co-operation, the government was forced into a series of U-turns.
In the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, we refused to back down because we knew the dangers that the Bill presented. I wish to pay tribute to the DA members who have worked tirelessly ever since to improve this Bill - the hon Dene Smuts and hon David Maynier; and in the NCOP, the hon Alf Lees and Darryl Worth.
By working with other members of the committee and opposition parties, we were unflagging in our determination to fight this unconstitutional Bill. Outside Parliament too, a well-organised campaign demonstrated the determination of all our citizens to defend South Africa's hard-won democracy. It showed that our independent media and civic organisations are indeed strong.
I believe that there are two foundational principles which are widely accepted in this House across party political boundaries. The first principle is that democracy cannot work when security exceeds its proper limits. The second principle is that the media cannot function when important information is suppressed. Bad governments thrive under the cloak of darkness. Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. The danger of this Bill was that its provisions could have shielded those who engaged in corruption and shady acts.
It was also tabled within the context of what seemed to be a revived security state. The cover-up of the Presidential Handbook, the secrecy behind the spending of R206 million worth of public money on President Zuma's Nkandla homestead, the circumstances surrounding the Marikana tragedy, and the continued failure to appoint a head of the Special Investigating Unit, SIU. All of these related events and others, pointed to how the government was attempting to closedown the democratic state.
The Bill could have been used to keep the lid on embarrassing information about the government, and could have been deployed to prevent new information from emerging in the future. So, we held the line and the outcome was a greatly improved Bill. But we cannot stop here because this fight is not yet over. The fact remains that this Bill is still flawed because Parliament does not have the power to legislate on matters which are exclusive provincial competences.
From the beginning, the Bill ought to have been tagged as a section 76 Bill to allow for proper provincial scrutiny. Hon members will know that in the past, the Constitutional Court has declared Acts of Parliament null and void because they were not correctly processed as section 76 Bills. This is exactly what happened with the passage of the Communal Land Rights Act, Clara. In our view, this Bill, likewise, does not pass constitutional muster.
I sense that there are hon members in the government benches who know in their hearts that this Bill is still unconstitutional. The question is, will they stand up and be counted? Will members of the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, continue the fight after their leaders' valiant presentation to the ad hoc committee on this Bill? Will you stand on principle and take up the fight with us?
Last year, we know that 35 members of Cosatu, in this House, voted for the secrecy bill even though their organisation opposed it publically. Today, their legacy is at stake. I hope those hon members will do the right thing.
The fight is not yet over. This House has a grave responsibility to ensure that every piece of legislation that we pass is aligned to the Constitution. Therefore, we will be seeking a legal opinion from senior council on the constitutionality of the entire Bill. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, on a point of order: The member standing here is misinforming the public. She says that there are members from Cosatu in the House. As Members of Parliament, as far as we know the parties that are represented here, there is no party called Cosatu.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: This House has a grave responsibility to ensure that every piece of legislation we pass is aligned to the Constitution. Therefore, we will be seeking a legal opinion from senior council on the constitutionality of the entire Bill. If the majority party passes this Bill today, we will petition the hon President to send the Bill back to the National Assembly under section 79 of the Constitution.
This is an opportunity for President Zuma to provide real leadership. Let him demonstrate to South Africa that he will stand by and stand up for the Constitution. In the event that this should fail, I have already begun with the process of lobbying the leaders of other political parties in Parliament to refer the law directly to the Constitutional Court in terms of section 80 of the Constitution.
We have a historic opportunity to stand up, across party political lines, for our Constitution today. Let us do the right thing. Let us get this Bill right. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE / Mpho/ .../TM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 283
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,26 Apr 2013,"Take 283 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, I hope the hon Deputy President is not a member of Cosatu. [Interjections.] Hon members, Cope would like to state upfront that we support the need to have legislation which defends the right of our country to protect certain information. We believe that our country should be able to counter antidemocratic activities by hostile foreign countries. We believe that there should be legislation that enables our constitutional order to be protected.
We agree fully that the Protection of State Information Act, Act 84 of 1982, should be repealed, not only because it is an apartheid law but also because it is outdated. It is unfortunate that the Bill under discussion has been so controversial that it is difficult to separate perception from reality. A lot of posturing and manoeuvring took place during the campaigns for and against the Bill. It is interesting to note that the Department of State Security even ran an advertising campaign in the media to protect the original Bill as good, acceptable and constitutional, when the department knew that was not the case. This activity was amazing and embarrassing, if you look at the Bill as it stands now. This attempt to fool the people of South Africa failed dismally.
The amendments made by the NCOP resulted in a far better Bill which is less controversial. Cope doesn't understand why the ANC made such a hullabaloo and then went to the NCOP and became reasonable. Cope is aware that the compromises made by the ANC were not because, like Saul, they saw the light on the road to Damascus. It is clear that the role of civil society, opposition parties, and leaders like former Minister of Intelligence Comrade Ronnie Kasrils assisted to ensure that the penny dropped in the ANC's head. The NCOP has done a good job in editing and amending the Bill to the point where the Bill is drastically improved with very small areas of disagreement.
In this regard, Cope congratulates the ANC members in the NCOP who, despite pressure from the Minister of State Security and his department, proceeded to include the amendments proposed by the DA and Cope. [Applause.] These amendments are not only a victory for the opposition but also a victory for the people of South Africa, including the members of the ANC whose objective views were suppressed by the party line. It is a victory for mass participation in the law-making process.
Whilst Cope appreciates the progressive amendments, we are still unable to support the Bill. This opposition is not merely to oppose for the sake of opposing. Cope's fundamental commitment to defend the Constitution is at the core of the opposition to this Bill. For the sake of clarity, Cope has problems with clause 34(i)(a) under "Espionage and related offences" which deals with punishment, convicting accused to imprisonment for a period of not less than 15 years but not exceeding 25 year. Cope's problem is not the period of imprisonment. Our problem is that people will be imprisoned for not knowing what they ought reasonably to have known. It is very difficult for anybody to prove that they did know what they reasonably ought to have known. That is what the ANC says people must prove. The second reason is because the public interest defence clause in this Bill is not appropriately captured. We accept that an attempt has been made to accommodate this with the inclusion of clause 41(c) of the Bill. The revelation of criminal activity does not equate to public interest.
If the ANC accepted these two issues and these amendments, Cope would fully support the Bill as it stands. Unfortunately, as things stand, Cope will not support the Bill. Hon Burgess stood up here and told you that this Bill is born again. We disagree. You don't have a clue of what born again means. This one is recycled. It is not born again. Please attend church, and then you will understand what born again means. [Laughter.] The question we have now is not whether Cosatu supports this or not. It is whether hon Borman and hon Turok will now vote for the Bill. That should be the question the ANC asks itself. I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 283
Mr D A KGANARE
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: House Chairman, I have discharged myself from hospital today, and I come to this podium heavily medicated to plead with my friends and colleagues from the ANC to follow the dictates of their conscience. There is much more at stake on this Bill than the Bill itself. It is the very notion of democracy and what we are doing here.
Many of you know that this is a bad Bill. You have been told by the churches, you have been told by the trade unions, you have been told by the nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and you have been told by the people of South Africa that this is a bad Bill. [Interjections.] Many of you have told me in the corridors that this is a bad Bill, and yet you will vote for it. This is where the hard-fought democracy perishes. If we do not have the courage to vote by conscience, this is the end of the First Republic, because then we can just as well send one single person from each political party to come in here with a proxy for all the others. When the day comes that they shut our brains down and our conscience, this Parliament will no longer be what the Constitution wanted it to be.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias): Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member! Hon Ambrosini, will you take your seat, please? Yes, hon Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias): Chair, I was wondering whether it is possible to give the hon member a little water, please. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order! We were informed that the hon member is not well. We have made the necessary provisions, but the member preferred to speak from the podium, so we will provide him with the necessary support, if required. You may continue, sir. [Applause.]
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: This is a serious matter. That is how we treated it. The bottom line is that we do not have a public defence clause and a public domain clause. You will be giving the people of South Africa a lesser measure of freedom and liberty than enjoyed by the people in the United States of America where there is a First Amendment clause. I wish to ask all of you: Why? Why do you do that? Do you feel that the people of South Africa are less deserving of the same freedom and democracy that the Americans have enjoyed for the past 230 years? [Interjections.]
It is a bad Bill! You have forced the hon Turok to recount. That is a crime against the conscience. Today, he had to issue a statement, eating humble pie and committing himself to vote. This is not how this Parliament must operate. [Interjections.] We have fought for the possibility of thinking, for the possibility of assessing, for the possibility of judging.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: When you give that power away to a Minister of State and Security, you will not retrieve it. When you relinquish the power, it is gone, and it is gone forever for your children and grandchildren. [Interjections.]
What the hon Burgess has told you just happens not to be true! This is a concertina Bill. Look at this type of misrepresentation to you, the Members of Parliament. It tells you that this Bill applies only to the organs of the security apparatus. It is true – and this is what it doesn't tell you – that this Bill can expand to apply to each and every organ of state which Cabinet authorises to apply for application of this Bill. It is a Bill the scope of which is potentially unlimited. So, the very problem that we tried to correct continues to persist.
We are not all mad, Mr Burgess. I have read this Bill. The universities have read this Bill. The churches have read this Bill, and many of the members of the ANC have read this Bill. We do know it is a bad, bad, bad Bill. The only question before your conscience is: What will you do about it? Will it be party lines and party dictatorship or the rule of freedom for which we fought? The choice is yours. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES /Mia / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 285
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Apr 2013,"[Take-285] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gs].doc"
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, a foreign journalist recently asked me this question: which country in Africa has the strongest opposition? My answer was: Zimbabwe has the strongest opposition in Africa. The MDC has 100 seats as opposed to the 99 of Mugabe's Zanu-PF and 10 seats of Mr Arthur Mutambara.
To determine how democratic a country is, Robert Dahl asks three questions in his book Political Oppositions and Western Democracies: One, are all people allowed to vote? Two, does the right exist for an opposition to be represented in Parliament? Three, may an opposition and the public speak their minds and be organised against the government?
In Zimbabwe, everybody is allowed to vote; opposition is allowed in Parliament; an opposition party is allowed to be organised. However, the freedom of the press and the other instruments of democracy are gagged and because of this, the European Union has, from time to time, renewed sanctions against Zimbabwe. Why? It is because Zimbabwe, according to them, is totally undemocratic. Why does Zimbabwe have the strongest opposition in Africa, but the country is viewed to be undemocratic? It is because democratic instruments like free media, like the protection – that is the issue here - of whistle-blowers are severely curtailed.
Stated differently, if these instruments do not work or are watered down, one starts on the road to dictatorship. The novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four, Big Brother's principal weapon of choice is the ability to control all forms of information and expression. Today, we have in front of us a Bill that opens a door to the control of information in South African society. We believe that it fundamentally undermines the Constitution and the rights to freedom of expression and information. Therefore, the FF Plus supports opposition co-operation to get a third of the members of this House to refer the Bill to the Constitutional Court for a final say.
Afrikaans:
Die feit dat die wetsontwerp soveel keer gepaneelklop moes word, vanweë die Opposisie se kommer, is juis die getuienis dat die ANC nie die onskuldigste van bedoelings aanvanklik daarmee gehad het nie. Hierdie wetsontwerp het die Opposisie, die burgerlike samelweing en selfs stoere ANC-ondersteuners soos Adv George Bizos en Prof Turok laat saamsnoer teen die ANC. Die arme Prof Turok word vandag deur 'n Adjunkminister en Mnr Landers langs hom gepatroleer om hom in lyn te hou. [Gelag.] Ek glo dat dit hierdie oorweldigende opposisie van binne en buite die Parlement was, wat die ANC laat afsien het van verskeie drakoniese klousules.
Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, on a point of order: ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, will you take your seat, please.
Prof B TUROK ... will the hon member give me his time so that I can reply to him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That is not a point of order, hon Turok. You may continue hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Mr Turok, I read your press statement. I respect what you said there and I understand politics. However, I think it still true who is sitting next to you.
Afrikaans:
Sonder die ongekwalifiseerde verdediging van openbare belang, word demokrasie bedreig. Die wet durf nie 'n gaping laat dat dit die publiek en fluitjieblasers kan uitsluit en diegene in magsposisies help om korrupsie toe te smeer nie. Dit sal die eintlike toets wees.
English:
While many changes to this Bill have been effected due to the hard work of everybody in the committee, we welcome and applaud that...[Interjections.]
The FF Plus is still opposed to the passing of this Bill and will vote against it. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time Expired.]
Mr M R SONTO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 285
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr M R SONTO: Chairperson, I gladly follow a member of this House who claims to have fought for liberation in this country. Ha haaa! [Laughter.]
Chairperson, hon Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, The Protection of State Information Bill, amongst other things, seeks to repeal the old apartheid legislation, the Protection of Information Act, Act 84 of 1982. Whoever is opposed to this piece of legislation, wants us to live in the apartheid era, and that will never happen. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
This Bill provides for a system of classification and declassification of state information, as the Minister has said. It further seeks to protect certain valuable state information against alteration, destruction, loss or unlawful disclosure. Furthermore, it seeks to regulate the manner in which state information may be protected. It criminalises espionage and information peddling. Cope has got a problem with that; I wonder why? I wonder why does the speaker of Cope, who was speaking here, have a problem with this piece of legislation, criminalising espionage and information peddling? I wonder who they are working for. [Applause.]
Opponents of this Bill argue against passing of the Bill on the bases that it does not – in their view - provide for a public interest defence clause. I find it very difficult when laws of the country are processed by the two Houses of Parliament and South Africans are saying, had it not gone to the NCOP, it would not have been the product it is now. I find that very, very strange. Those people are calling themselves South Africans. We, South Africans, have two Houses of Parliament. Bills come from this House and go to the other House. That you should know.
Furthermore, amendments were made to the Bill for exemptions on disclosure and processing of classified information to address the concerns raised around the public interest defence clause. In fact, on Monday, just on Monday - it was not last week, it was this week on Monday - when we passed the Bill as amended, not a single party raised a finger against the Bill - not a single party! I'm wondering now when the leader of the DA is coming to speak here saying that the Bill is still flawed. Yet, her operatives, who were in the committee, never raised a finger against the Bill. [Interjections.] You know how the situation was, when we were in the committee they always sat opposite us.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Sonto, will you take your seat please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The speaker is clearly misleading the House. [Interjections.] This is not what happened in the House. Here I have before me the report of that adhoc committee that clearly says ... - would you want me to read it?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, Chief Whip, will you take your seat please. That is useful information but, hon member, can you continue please. [Interjections.]
Mr M R SONTO: Thank you very much. On this planet Earth, I only know reptiles have got two tongues, and that would speak this today and that tomorrow. Hear what they had to say: I am quoting hon member Swart, after the meeting, "I don't think this Bill can still in good conscience be called a "Secrecy Bill". That is what he said after he agreed with everything.
Now, to the confusion of the crowds that are being rented into all our committees, let me quote a certain Mr Murray Hunter who said:
"I don't understand their position of embracing a Bill but at the same time preparing to challenge it in the Constitutional Court". [Applause.]
IsiXhosa:
Ngabantu benu enibarentileyo.
English :
They are asking questions about you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Sonto, will you take your seat please; yes, Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order. The hon speaker is continuing with his efforts to mislead the House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order, hon members!
UNDENTIFIED MEMBER: Chairperson, on a point of order:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, take a seat hon member and wait until you are recognised. [Interjections.] What is your point of order, hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The point is that the parties in the committee repeatedly say they support the amendments but not the Bill. This member is misleading the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chief Whip, take your seat please. Hon members, this is the reason why we have a debate. There are different views expressed, of course. There will be parties who have certain view points and others and you will have different interpretations about it. All the different parties have an opportunity to participate in the debate. Let's continue with the debate please. [Interjections.]
Mr M R SONTO: Chairperson, the Bill provides a regime through which the public may access information by applying to the relevant head of an organ of state to review the classification status of classified information, declassifying such and grant the request if that state information reveals evidence of the following: Any contravention or failure to comply with the law; an imminent and serious public safety or environmental risk; and if the public interest in the disclosure of state information clearly outweighs the harm that will arise from the disclosure.
The public will, in terms of the provisions of this Bill, also have the right to approach our courts to request such disclosure.
The ANC supports the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Mr S N SWART/ TH (Afr) /nb (Xh& Eng)/ Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 286
Mr S R SONTO
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the reason why this Bill has
been so vociferously opposed is that the opposition parties, civil society and members within the ANC itself were concerned that state departments would use the provisions of this Bill to conceal corrupt or illegal activities under the guise of classification. The ACDP voted against this Bill mainly because of the lack of the public interest defence clause and the fact that this Bill would trump the constitutionally mandated Promotion of Access to Information Act, Paia.
As we know, the Bill was amended significantly by the National Assembly and then again by the NCOP which, significantly, inserted the defence clause in section 41. The clause provides that any person, who discloses or possesses classified information, where such disclosure or possession reveals a criminal activity, will have a full defence. So the question arises whether this is a public interest defence or how far this goes. As the ACDP, we view this as a significant step; some may say it is a stride or a leap in the right direction.
Whistle-blowers, journalists and ordinary citizens who reveal criminal activities as contained in the classified documents, now have a full defence should they be prosecuted. In all good conscience, we need to conceal the significant amendment and improvement to the Bill.
However, our remaining concerns relate firstly to the standard of liability for espionage. Adv George Bizos' submission, which referred to the defence clause that was accepted by the ANC, also expressed grave concerns about the "negligence standard" which is inserted in the espionage clause, "the ought reasonably to have known standard", that introduces a reverse onus on an accused, which is constitutionally unacceptable. The NCOP committee accepted this argument for all the other offences but omitted to accept it for this specific offence. That does not make sense and it is problematic.
We also align ourselves with the DA's hon Dene Smuts' consistent argument about the incorrect tagging of this Bill.
Provincial archives are the exclusive legislative competences of provinces, and National Parliament should not be legislating for such provincial competences prevail. We agree with the view that this Bill could be procedurally unconstitutional for that reason alone.
Together with the opposition parties, we share the view that we will be petitioning President Zuma on these narrow issues. We have come a massive long way, and yes; in all good conscience, we cannot call this a Secrecy Bill anymore.
Mr Sonto, you are right; that is what I said. We still have concerns, and we need to alert the public as well to the significant amendments. Let us however refer this Bill to the Constitutional Court so that it can give its final imprimatur on it to allay the concerns expressed by everyone. We have come a massive – a very long way, we are 99% through the way. Let us not fail the citizens in this last huddle. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr L T LANDERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 286
Mr S N SWART
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, I join other hon members in commending the relevant committee of the National Council of Provinces for the excellent amendments brought to this Bill. Firstly, in response to the hon Oriani-Ambrosini and others, I want to say that reading the Bill on its own, it is quiet clear that this Bill cannot now be used to hide corruption. It is also clear from the provisions of the Bill that municipalities and municipal entities are specifically excluded from the provisions of this Bill.
And when we listened carefully to the hon Oriani-Ambrosini's tirade - sadly he has had to leave because of his medical condition – but the question that arises is: Does the hon Oriani-Ambrosini, who is a citizen of the United States of America and Italy, issue his warnings and threats on behalf of the people of America or the government of Italy? [Interjections.]
We have listened also to the ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Landers, will you take your seat, please.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member is referring to the citizen of South Africa. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: That is why ... [Interjections]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: ... you cannot have a phenomenon where an American citizen is a member of the South African Parliament. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, order hon members!
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: So I request you Chairperson to ask the hon member to withdraw the statement. [Interjections.] I thank you, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon Minister.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, of what relevance is this intervention from the IFP? The point that the hon member is making is that we would not be able to tell what a member, who has three citizenships, would be representing at any given time. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! May I request you to let us continue with the debate. The matter of the citizenship is not up for verification now. Surely, the member is an hon member of the House and participated in proceedings. Hon Landers, will you continue, please. [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, can we just ask the hon Landers to withdraw that component of the speech? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, I do not see any reason why the point should be withdrawn. [Interjections.]
Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): There is nothing to withdraw at this point. I have made a ruling in this regard. Do you want to address me on the same point of order?
Mrs S V KALYAN: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): On what matter of the ruling?
Mrs S V KALYAN: On casting aspersion on the integrity of a member of this House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members let us give an opportunity to hon Landers to continue and we will then look into the ruling if need be. Currently, the hon Landers have started the speech and we must allow him to continue with it. You may continue hon member.
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, our Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic. Law or conduct inconsistent with it is invalid and the obligations imposed by it must be fulfilled. And so, we note the threat of court action.
However, we are somewhat amused by the respective parties' determination – those who are opposed to this Bill - to get to the Constitutional Hill ahead of one another. [Laughter.] The participation of a certain leader of a political party in place of other hon members of her party, who worked the hard yards in helping to shape this Bill, is an interesting development.
An hon member of this House, who is not a member of the ANC, wanted to know from me if this was a vote of no confidence in those members. My response to that member was that I hold those two hon members of the DA in high regard, and I refuse to believe that there could be any untoward reason for their nonparticipation in this debate; but it does raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the hon Mazibuko should have a quiet chat, over a cup of tea, with her new colleague, the hon Mosiuoa Lekota, in that space referred to by the hon Pandor this morning, and she should ask the hon Lekota to tell her about his role in the sorry saga of the Russian satellite. [Interjections.] And please, listen very carefully to his response. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: Please, talk about the Bill.
Mr L T LANDERS: I am talking about the Bill. [Interjections.] I am not being personal, ... [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: This is not a TV show.
Mr L T LANDERS: This is a political forum, and I am raising political issues. If you see it as personal, then you really have a serious problem. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Landers address the Chair and continue with your speech please. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
Mr L T LANDERS: It has been a while since we wanted to tell these hard truths. And I had to consult with the hon Minister of State Security and others because, as a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, I am sworn to secrecy, at least I was, and I still am. So there are things that occurred there that we have knowledge of, and all we are asking from you as a political leader, is to raise that particular matter with your colleague.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: We are asking you to debate the Bill. [Interjections.]
Mr L T LANDERS: We are debating the Bill; it is relevant to the Bill. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Clause 39 is a particularly welcome provision for many of us. Clause 39 of this Rule provides for the registration of foreign intelligence agents. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member what is your point of order? Order, hon members!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I am sitting here patiently hoping perhaps that hon member ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member what is the point of order?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, I want to know what is he insinuating about me? What is he saying? [Interjections]. He can't make insinuations like that and expect me to keep quiet!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member take your seat please. That is not a point of order. Continue hon Landers. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, I go back to clause 39. There are people, that walk freely even through the halls and corridors of this august House, who will now have to declare their statuses as intelligence agents. [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, I rise again on a point of order: If the hon member is suggesting that I am an intelligence agent, he must say so.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon member! Hon Lekota, hon Lekota ...
Mr M G P LEKOTA: No Chair, you cannot allow a situation where the ruling party can say what they like and lie to the public. It has been going on for some time ...
.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member, hon Lekota, hon Lekota, will you take your seat please, will you take your seat please!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: ... and I will not accept it. I will
not accept it because they blame me even for the weather these days.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon Lekota take your seat please!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I am blamed for rain and for the sun by the ruling party and you keep quiet. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Lekota, hon Lekota! Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Kganare take your seat please. I haven't recognised you. Order, hon members! Hon Lekota, let us follow the debate and may I also add that you should know the Rule that you cannot point at a Presiding Officer as you are currently doing. That type of behaviour is unparliamentary. Let us show respect.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chairperson, I withdraw, I apologise for that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member. Continue hon Landers.
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. [Interjections.]
Dr C P Mulder: Voorsitter, op 'n punt van order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mulder, will you take your seat please. Yes, hon Kganare?
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, I just want to ask the hon Landers whether there is ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that's not a point of order, will you take your seat please.
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, you haven't allowed me to speak.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You want to ask the hon member a question. Hon member, hon member ...
Mr D A KGANARE: Yes, whether the information he is trying to tell us is the information he got from the National Party when he was a member? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your seat please. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Mulder, what is your point of order? [Interjections]. Hon members, I cannot hear the hon member if you are continuously interjecting!
Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I would refer you to Rule 63, in terms of which a member in his speech would not use unbecoming language. And what I would like to suggest is that if a member suggests that there are members or hon members of this House walking around in the Chambers of Parliament, who are security agents, then I would suggest ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Dr C P MULDER: ... I would suggest that it creates a certain impression about hon members, and no one can defend themselves on those expressions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your point of order is noted.
Dr C P MULDER: Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I suggest that we allow the hon member to complete his speech. I will revisit Hansard, and if need be, we will come back with a ruling. Hon Landers, you may continue.
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, let me make it very simple and clear. I am not, for a single instance, suggesting that the hon Lekota or any other member of this House is a foreign intelligence agent. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr L T LANDERS: If you want to know what I am saying, listen carefully. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Now, speak properly.
Mr L T LANDERS: No, I do speak properly, unlike you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Landers, you may continue with your speech, sir!
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, I repeat; there are people who walk freely even through the halls and corridors of this House, who will now have to declare their status as intelligence agents. The Bill has drawn interest of many countries because our law thus far did not make such a provision, and now it does. And so, like the hon Burgess, we repeat; the ANC will support this Bill.
And we want to say to the hon Mazibuko and anyone else out there, who are making the threats of referring us to the Constitutional Court, that we will meet you on the hill. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY / Mm/ARM (Edited)/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 287
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,26 Jun 2013,"Take 287 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mr L T LANDERS
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, thank you very much for the debates and views from all the hon members of this House, but my appeal to the opposition is that stop behaving like scratched records and referring even to things which are no longer in the Bill. Secondly, it is worth noting that Cope is concerned about us legislating against the activities of espionage. What is notable Chairperson and hon members, is Cope really here to assist the foreign spies to act against our country and our people? I don't know. You have to judge that. [Interjections.] The hon Mazibuko, of the DA...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Hon Minister, will you take your seat, please.
Mr D A KGANARE: On a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon Minister to deliberately mislead the House by projecting Cope as ...[Interjection.]...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you take your seat. Hon Minister, will you take your seat, please. Hon Kganare, will you withdraw the statement that you just made that the Minister is deliberately misleading this House.
Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Chairperson,
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Hon Kganare, you must withdraw the statement.
Mr D A KGANARE: I withdraw the word deliberate.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Take your seat, please. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thirdly, House Chairperson, the hon Mazibuko, the leader of the DA, has raised concerns about the constitutionality of the Bill but at the same time it is not clear what is unconstitutional. She says that she's still going to look for legal counsel. As the ANC, we've been looking for legal counsel all along, that's why we have been making changes in order to ensure that we comply with the Constitution. She goes on to say probably it is unconstitutional because it encroaches on the provincial exclusive powers or competencies. I think, maybe hon Swart was better explained, it was about provincial archives.
Maybe, let me address this thing very briefly, House Chairperson. The assertion that the Bill encroaches on provincial competencies with regard to mandate of provincial archives is not founded. That is what we know, because that's what they complained about taking off the Bill.
Firstly, the Bill does provide that once the information is declassified by security apparatus or agencies, it will be handed over to the national archives or other established archives, as the case may be for storage. It doesn't say that we'll declassify the information which is with the archives. This is done so that people can have access to this information because information is stored in our archives. I thought I should clarify this thing for hon Mazibuko so that she doesn't waste money with expensive legal counsel. We can offer these legal opinions free to you. [Laughter.]
So, House Chairperson, in conclusion, let me just say I would have liked to quote from one of the leaders of the ANC, particularly this month, but let me quote from a scholar because here we have many people who are doing their own interpretation. This worry about control of intelligence agencies, one of the renowned scholar is Loch Johnson, everyone knows him. He is the best scholar in terms of intelligence and how it should be controlled. I quote: Is it possible to have an effective secret service in an open society? Mr Johnson says that there is everything suggesting that it is possible. According to him and the views, we fully share the world that is full of dangers, threats and risks, and intelligence agencies are there to provide protection by serving as eyes and ears of government.[ Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chairperson, we move that the Bill, as amended be passed.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Hon Chairperson, the DA would like to call for a division.
Division demanded
The House divided.
Ayes – 191: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y l; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Duma, N M; Dunjwa, M L; Fransman, M L; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S - B; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekane, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line, H; Luyenge, Z; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magwanishe, G; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Mangena, M S; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Mathebe, P M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M; Mbalula, F A; Mdakane, M R; Mentor, M P; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Moepeng, J K; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M S; Mthethwa, E M; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndebele, J S; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Ntuli, Z C; Ntuli, B M; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Ramodibe, D M; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sexwale, T M G; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Thobejane, S G; Tlake, M F; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Ximbi, D L; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.
Noes – 74: Adams, L H; Bhanga, B M; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Eloff, E H; Esau, S; Ferguson, B D; Gcume, N P; George, M E; Greyling, L W; Harris, T D; Hoosen, M H; Huang, C; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Banard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackenzie, G P D; Marais, S J F; Max, L H; Mazibuko, L D; Mbhele, P D; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Morgan, G R; Mosimane, C K K; Motau, S C; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Ndlovu, V B; Ngonyama, L S; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Plaatjies, S K; Rabie, P J; Ramatlakane, L; Robinson, D; Rodgers, F; Ross, D C; Sayedali Shah, M R; Schafer, D A; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Skosana, M B; Smalle, J F; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A C; Swart, S N; Swart, M; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van Der Linde, J J; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Watson, A.
Abstain-1: Ntapane, S Z.
Question agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
Mr M B GOQWANA / GG / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 288
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
CONSIDERATION OF NATIONAL HEALTH AMENDMENT BILL
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): May I request those members who are leaving the House to do so quietly.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M B GOQWANA: Chair, hon members, hon Ministers, this piece of legislation passed through this House and, for concurrency, it was sent to the NCOP. The NCOP made some reconsiderations and the mediation committee was set up between the NA and the NCOP. The mediation committee sat yesterday to look at those reconsiderations. All members and all parties agreed on these reconsiderations and they let the legislation pass through.
This piece of legislation is to improve the quality of health care institutions and at the same time to make sure that they are accountable. I am presenting this report for acceptance by this House. Thank you very much Chairperson. [Applause.]
There was no debate
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move that the Bill be passed.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly passed.
THIRD ORDER/ LN/Checked by Nobuntu END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 290
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THIRD ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES ON SOUTH AFRICA'S SECOND, THIRD AND FOURTH PERIODIC STATE PARTY REPORT TO UNITED NATIONS COMMITTEE ON RIGHTS OF THE CHILD FOR PERIOD 1998 TO SEPTEMBER 2012
Mrs D M RAMODIBE: House Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the details of the report before us are contained in the ATCs, and I'm not going to go through the report. But I'm just going to speak to the process, the observation and the recommendations.
After consideration of the content of the South African government second, third and fourth periodic country reports on the implementation of the UN Convention on the rights of the child, the committee met with civil society on 6 March to get their views. Thereafter, on 13 March the portfolio committee engaged with the following government departments; the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the Department of Social Development, the Department of Health, the Department of Home Affairs, the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Labour.
Having met with departments, the committee came up with several observations but, I will only mention few. One of the observations was that the committee was concerned with the lack of co-operation and reports received from 10 departments in the compilation of the draft country report. With that, the committee also noted the importance of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans in providing information on the implementation of the optional protocol on the involvement of children in armed conflict.
Hon Chairperson, I will go to some of the recommendations; the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities should adopt more proactive and creative ways of engaging with sister departments on the necessary reports needed. In this instance, they should seek a common understanding on the importance of departmental reports.
The committee also recommended that the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities have awareness campaigns in which they educate other departments on the need for these reports. One of the recommendations was that the status of the national plan of action for children should be clarified and the Portfolio Committee on Women, Children and People with Disabilities be briefed accordingly in so far as progress with regards to the implementation.
I want to conclude by commending the achievements made in advancing children's rights in South Africa. Notwithstanding the fact that the committee acknowledges the huge challenges faced to give effect to the national fulfilment protection and advancement of children's rights in South Africa.
Madam Chairperson, I therefore table this report before the House for adoption. Thank you.
There was no debate.
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (Mr G D Schneemann): Chairperson, I move that the Report be adopted. [Interjections.]
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam House Chair, the DA does not object to this report. However, we would like to raise our concern that this report is 14,5 years old and it has spent a period from 1998 to September 2012. It's a real indictment on this Parliament that we are today adopting a report which is that old. Thank you.
Question put: That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
FOURTH AND FIFTH ORDERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 290
THIRD ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO NORTHERN CAPE URBAN FET COLLEGE, NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR HIGHER EDUCATION, NORTH WEST UNIVERSITY AND ORBIT FET COLLEGE 28 MARCH 2013.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING ON SITE VISIT TO STELLENBOSCH UNIVERSITY (TYGERBERG CAMPUS) STAG UNIVERSITY LODGE.
Mr M I MALALE: House Chairperson, I would like to present a report of the portfolio committee for consideration and adoption by this House.
We visited four learning sites between January and February this year in the Northern Cape and North West provinces. In regard to Northern Cape Urban Further Education and Training College, FET, and the Orbit FET College, we have noted the following matters; that these colleges have got admission policies that are consonant with the requirements of our legislation and that the National Certificate Vocational, NCV, have got students which are indeed undergoing placements for learnerships and apprenticeships to be able to fulfil their requirements for acquisition of their certificates and diplomas.
These FET Colleges do not have a policy for admission and enrolment of foreign students. We think the department should intervene in this regard so that there is a clear policy that governs these institutions in regard to this aspect.
We have noted that there is an exponential growth in terms of head count enrolments in these institutions. This necessitates expansion of the infrastructure to be able to accommodate this growing need. The student-lecturer ratio is very high in these institutions and lecturers are overloaded in terms of work and we think there is a need for improvement in this aspect. There is a critical shortage of proximate students accommodation in our FET Colleges and this precipitates high absenteeism, dropout and high failure rate.
Our colleges are struggling with attracting qualified and competent lecturers and we think we need to really expedite our efforts to train the lecturers for FET Colleges. There is a delay regarding issuance of certificates to our learners. In this matter, we have been assured by the ministry and the department that they are dealing with it and they will bring it to finality in due course.
We have noted delays regarding transfers by National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, to FET Colleges.It is not going to be very easy to deal with this matter because we are not able to reconcile the academic year and the fiscal year. So our advice is that FET Colleges should improvise and put aside resources to operate until the time Parliament appropriates money for them to be able to run.
We appreciate the improvement of collaboration between FET Colleges and the Setas and other companies. In particular, we would like to appreciate the partnerships between the Northern Cape Urban FET College and Gariep Motors, Oranje Toyota, Mac Steel, B & C Engineering and others and we think these efforts will go a great deal in improving employability of our learners and ensuring that the vocational and training programmes that are being offered are of relevance to the workplace.
We note the request that has been made by the Northern Cape FET College for an amount of R15 million to be able to cater for additional expenses including catering for students and we would like NSFAS to locate resources to assist in this regard.
We would like to appreciate the good management that we observed at Orbit FET College and we think other colleges must emulate this college in terms of the ability to improve performance in Mathematics in regards to the NCV programmes that are notorious for a high failure rate in our institutions.
We also visited the National Institute for Higher Education and Training that is based in the Northern Cape. It's an institution that facilitates the learning of students attached to partner institutions which are universities. In this regard, I'm referring to the University of North West and Unisa.We have noted that these institutions would like the institute to get money for applications from the students yet they do not contribute any money for ensuring that the institute is able to facilitate learning for their learners.
We have urged these institutions to engage with the institute in order to resolve these matters. When we were there in the institute, we noticed that they had not submitted their records for auditing by the Auditor-General and we have recommended that this matter must be dealt with so urgently, so that there is accountability in this institute.
We visited the North West University. This University has got about 56 000 students, 85% of whom are enrolled for undergraduate programmes. This institution experiences a dropout of about 12%.It is amongst the lowest in the country in terms of this percentage of dropouts and the reason for this is, issues of funding and social factors like inaccessibility of material to pursue studies and so on. The graduate rate in this institution is about 26% slightly above the national average of 22%.In this year 2000 prospective students were refused admission because of lack of space and this really calls on us to expedite our efforts to build two universities in Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape.
We also visited the University of Stellenbosch Tygerberg Campus, in order to go and inspect the Stag students lodge. The visit was at the instance of an invitation by the university for us to see a prototype for cost effective housing solution for higher education. This has been suggested as an alternative student housing that is innovative, quick to construct and durable and we would like the department to look at this alternatives as future possibilities for provision of housing for our education system.
I think the issues that we need this House to note, is the importance of adequate funding to the National Institute of Higher Education, the need to expedite transformation in our institutions. Because when we visited the North West Potchefstroom Campus, a majority of the students there are white. The staff complement is 63% white and we think there must be an improvement of reflecting the demographics of our country.
We must fast-track infrastructural development for higher education and training sector. We must improve throughput rates, success rates in order to position ourselves at the level where we can compete with the world in this regard.
I present the report for adoption by the House. Thank you.
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move that the report be adopted
There was no debate.
The ACTING Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report on Oversight visit to Northern Cape Urban FET College, National Institute for Higher Education, North West University and Orbit FET College accordingly adopted.
Report on Site Visit to Stellenbosch University (Tygerberg Campus) Stag student Lodge accordingly adopted.
SIXTH ORDER / Mn/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Mr M I MALALE
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES ON NOMINATION OF CANDIDATES TO SERVE ON AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH COUNCIL, ARC
Mr M JOHNSON: Hon Chairperson, ministers, colleagues, esteemed guests in the gallery, fellow South Africans, on 26 March 2013 our Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries sat and considered a Report on nomination of candidates to serve on the board of Agriculture Research Council, ARC. This Report seeks to recommend to the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Mrs Tina Jeomat-Pettersson, that the following are to serve for another three-year term: Mr J W A Godden, Prof S Vil-Nkomo, Ms A D Aphane, Mr M Dyasi, Mr A D Young, Ms D Msomi, Mr J H MacBain, Mr F W Jansen van Rijssen, Dr J M Chitja, Prof T V Mayekiso, Prof T A Mofokeng, Prof F J C Swanepoel and Prof M J Khann.
Our recommendation is in keeping with section 9(3) of the ARC of 1990. We are convinced that with such a recommendation the team will go a long way in ensuring that the land is, indeed, shared among those who work it and that the state will help them with implements, seeds, tractors and dams in order to save the soil and assist the tillers.
I put this report before the House for adoption. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move-
That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
Mr E NYEKEMBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 291
Mr M JOHNSON
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON LABOUR ON ERRATUM OF THE ANNUAL PERFORMANCE PLAN AND ERRATUM OF STRATEGIC PLAN OF DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
Mr E NYEKEMBA: House Chair, during March 2012 the Department of Labour presented and publicised its Strategic Plan 2012-17 and Annual Performance Plan 2012-13 to Parliament.
Through its internal review the department realised that the Strategic Plan and Annual Performance Plan had misintended shortcomings. In dealing with the misintended shortcomings, the department identified and outlined the misalignments and rectified them. For easy reference, the adjustments were highlighted in red and submitted to the Minister for approval. On March 2013 the Portfolio Committee received the report which had been rectified and approved it. And we are presenting it to the House for adoption. Thank you House Chair.[Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move-
That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to
Report accordingly adopted.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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Mr E NYEKEMBA
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ON CONSIDERATION OF CANDIDATES FOR APPOINTMENT TO BOARD OF TECHNOLOGY INNOVATION AGENCY
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, there will be no input. We move-
That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
Mrs H H MALGAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 291
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON BASIC EDUCATION ON OVERSIGHT VISITS TO LIMPOPO, NORTHERN CAPE, KWAZULU-NATAL AND EASTERN CAPE PROVINCES
Mrs H H MALGAS: Hon House Chair, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers and hon members of the House, the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education conducted its oversight visits to underperforming districts in Limpopo, Northern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape at the beginning of this year.
The committee focused on critical issues such as the state of school environment; the supply and training of teachers; readiness to implement the Curriculum Assessment Policy Statement, CAPS, with emphasis on the intermediated phase; the state of admission and registration of learners; the delivery of textbooks, workbooks and stationery; the functionality of school governance and management bodies; and also the availability of learner transport and school nutrition to qualifying learners.
Despite the good work noted in this report that was done in preparation for the 2013 school year, issues of concern were also observed. The highlighted areas of concern that needed to be strengthened within the department include the lack of necessary CAPS training to some districts and the persistent shortage of textbooks and workbooks, despite major strides being made this year by provinces and the Department of Basic Education, DBE, in the delivery of textbooks. It is highlighted within the report because we have visited the schools and the districts within which the schools are located. We put down all our concern and observations and even our recommendations.
One area that needs attention is post provisioning which include maths and science teachers. We noticed that, at certain schools, post provisioning was not done according to subject needs. Other areas highlighted include the nonimplementation of the Annual National Assessment, ANA, as a diagnostic tool to improve learner performance, the late admission of learners and the nonfuctionality of quality learning and teaching in many schools visited and other challenges.
Our findings and recommendations made will assist in identifying areas that need to be strengthened and will contribute to finding effective solutions to challenges encountered by districts and schools as indicated in this report. We made overall recommendations which are in this report which is being tabled for adoption. Thank you.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY / /sam /nvs/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 292
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON AUDITOR–GENERAL ON STUDY TOUR TO AUSTRIA FROM 6 TO 13 OCTOBER 2012
Mr K A MOLOTO: Hon Chairperson of the House, the Standing Committee on Auditor-General undertook a study tour to Austria from 6 to 13 October 2012 with the objective of understanding the location of the Auditor-General of Austria within the system of Austria. The second objective of the study was to understand the Auditor-General's relationship with the parliament of Austria. The third objective was to understand the system of performance audit and accountability in Austria. The purpose of this study tour should be understood within the context of the role of the National Assembly in the process of appointing the Auditor-General of South Africa.
Section 181(1)(e) of the Constitution of the Republic recognises the Auditor-General as one of the state institutions that strengthens democracy in the Republic. It further states that:
These institutions are independent, and subject only to the Constitution and the law, and they must be impartial and must exercise their powers and perform their functions without fear, favour or prejudice.
The Auditor-General is independent, and subject only to the Constitution and the law and, in this instance it's subject to the Constitution and the Public Audit Act
The Constitution further states that no organ of state may interfere with the functioning of the Auditor-General. The office of the Auditor-General is accountable to the National Assembly on its activities and the performance of its functions. The Auditor-General may be removed from the office only with the adoption of the resolution by the National Assembly calling for Auditor-General's removal from the office on the grounds stipulated in the Constitution.
I'm restating this familiar constitutional provision to put the necessary emphasis on the central role played by Parliament in the work of the Auditor-General and underlies the importance of this study tour. I would be lacking in attention to duty if I omit to remind the members of this House that the term of the office of the current Auditor-General, Mr Terence Nombembe, will expire on 30 November 2013. Section 6(1) of the Public Audit Act states that:
Whenever it becomes necessary to appoint a person as Auditor-General, the Speaker must initiate the process in the National Assembly for the recommendation of a person to the President for appointment as Auditor-General as set out in section 193 of
the Constitution.
It is crucial to state this provision so as to be able to enrich the process that is about to unfold in the appointment process of the new Auditor-General and draw lessons from the work of the Standing Committee on Auditor-General.
Allow me to focus on our interaction with the International Anticorruption Academy as one of the recommendations of the committee and is based on the work of this academy. Evidence from the work of various law enforcement agencies globally attest to the fact that corruption can no longer be fought with traditional methods. The scourge of corruption imitates and takes various forms.
The International Anticorruption Academy's mission is to deliver and facilitate education and training to the law enforcement agencies. This agency was original initiated by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime in collaboration with the Republic of Austria. Other African countries like Nigeria, Kenya, Mozambique, Democratic Republic of Congo, Senegal, Cape Verde and Uganda have already joined the International Anticorruption Academy. It is our considered view that the South African membership of the International Anticorruption Academy, Iaca, will assist enhancing the capacity of South Africa's anticorruption agencies. It will ensure that our agencies are exposed to the experience of other member states in their fight against corruption.
We also recommend that the government intensify the use of performance audit. Such audits, in monitoring performance of government, will assist in service delivery.
Lastly, we recommend that there is a need for the proper establishment of municipal accounts and audit committees. The establishment of these municipal structures will go a long way in ensuring that public funds are put to good use and sufficient accountability systems are put in place. Thank you.
There was no debate
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move: That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA
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Mr K A MOLOTO
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO GERT SIBANDE DISTRICT, MPUMALANGA PROVINCE FROM 28 TO 30 JANUARY 2013
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA: Chairperson and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs undertook an oversight visit to Mpumalanga province's Gert Sibande District Municipality and Msukaligwa Municipality on 28 to 30 January 2013. Among the issues that define the mission of the visit was to ensure that local government systems are effectively implemented and are in line with the ethos of good governance. The provision of water and related infrastructure is one of the key functions of local government. For this reason, municipalities are both water service authorities and service providers.
During the oversight visit there were few issues that warranted investigation. We wanted to find out whether, indeed, there was water crisis in the area as declared by the municipality. We also wanted to know if there were plans in place that cautioned and gave the municipality an early warning that there would be a water crisis; were there interventions that had been put in place so that the municipality could be able to deal with the matter; and did the Msukaligwa Local Municipality receive any support system from the national department, provincial department or district municipality regarding the crisis that they were faced with.
The committee's findings found that Msukaligwa Municipality relies on three principal dams, namely, Jericho Dam, Brummer Dam and Douglas Dam. Investigation into the water supply shortage found that Brummer Dam and Douglas Dam were running dry consequently water extraction was not possible as they are 10% below capacity.
The municipality has Northern Water Treatment which treats and supply water to the community. It has a total of six pumps and two air blowers installed. Four pumps are connected to a 450NB pipeline which pumps drinking water to the airport reservoir which supplies the central business district, CBD.
We found that only one pump was operational and the other five pumps were broken. That shows us that there was no maintenance plan in place. Only two pumps are connected to a 250NB pipeline which is meant to supply water to Wesselton, Longhomes and Everest Park. These areas are in an upland area therefore the pumps have no power or pressure to supply water to these communities. Currently for water supply, these areas rely on water carts supply which is not done everyday.
We found out that 13,5% of households are without adequate water in that area. Also, there is no planning that would accommodate the increase of migration and issues of climate change. These two issues are not taken into consideration. The municipality started its planning eight months after the water crisis had already started.
We found that there was no risk management plan in place to enable them manage the problem they are faced with. The municipality also does not have technical capacity. There are no qualified engineers in the technical departments.
The committee recommended that the district municipality together with the Department of Labour must conduct skills audit to address the issue of capacity in that municipality. The national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, must send technicians and engineers from the municipal infrastructure support agency, Misa, to assist with the technical capacity in that municipality. We also recommended that the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs must also come to assist in that area.
Since the portfolio committee's visit some interventions took place. Water is supplied by trucks, the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs is busy installing a temporary pipeline which will compliment the supply of water to the areas that do not have water at all. Rand Water Board is installing an emergency pipeline in an area serviced by the Northern Water Services Board. By June all the interventions will be completed and people will receive water in that municipality.
We move that the Report be adopted. I thank you. [Time expired.]
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I move: That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
Mrs Y R BOTHA / NN/ GC / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 293
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,26 Jun 2013,"Take 293 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,25 Apr 2013,"[Take-293] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][gs].doc"
16.49.36
ELEVENTH ORDER
TWELFTH ORDER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY 2011-12 ANNUAL REPORT
Mrs Y R BOTHA: Hon House Chairperson, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development considered the annual report of the National Development Agency, NYDA, for the 2011-12 financial year. The NYDA is a schedule 3(a) public entity, established in terms of the National Development Agency Act of 1998 and it strives to leverage the strategic partnerships to eradicate poverty and to enable poor communities to attain sustainable livelihoods.
This entity or agency seeks strategic objectives. The committee is satisfied with the performance of the agency but we just want to reflect on objective four of the agency in terms of mobilising and leveraging resources. The agency sets itself a goal of raising R200 million for the year under review but they only managed to raise R7 million. In terms of our recommendations, the committee recommends that the agency should develop annual targets that are realistic and achievable. The R200 million target was thus not achieved.
Furthermore, the Minister should ensure that the policies that had not been approved by the agency, because of delays by the board, should be approved in this financial year. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move -
That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
ORDERS 13-15
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 25 April 2013 Take: 293
ORDER 12
CONSIDERATION OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON SUSPENSION OF MAGISTRATE C M DUMANI.
CONSIDERATION OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON WITHHOLDING OF REMUNERATION OF MAGISTRATE N E NDAMASE.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON SUSPENSION OF MAGISTRATE L MYLES
Mr L T LANDERS: Hon Chairperson, we present to this House the cases of three magistrates. Firstly, the portfolio committee recommends to this House that the National Assembly confirms the suspension on Magistrate C M Dumani whose suspension will effectively result in his removal from office.
Secondly, the portfolio committee further recommends that the National Assembly confirms the suspension of Magistrate L Myles whose suspension also will effectively result in her removal from office.
Thirdly, the portfolio committee recommends that the National Assembly confirms that the remuneration of Magistrate L Ndamase be withheld from the date of her suspension.
Very briefly by way of background, Magistrate C M Dumani was found guilty on three charges of sexual harassment by the Magistrates' Commission, misconduct inquiry and recommended his removal from office. Mr Dumani then sought to appeal this finding in the courts. Eventually the Supreme Court of Appeal dismissed his appeal with costs on 30 November 2012.
In the case of Magistrate L Myles, who is an additional magistrate in Upington, the ethics committee of the Magistrates' Commission had ordered that there must be an investigation into Mrs Myles' capacity to carry out her duties of office on account of continued ill health. After investigating the matter, the ethics committee of the Magistrates' Commission recommended that Magistrate Myles be removed from office, on account of her continued ill health.
When this matter was brought to the portfolio committee, we requested a legal opinion from state law advisers who stated that the commission's view that Magistrate Myles was incapable of carrying out her duties in an efficient manner due to continued ill health was justified.
In the case of Magistrate N Ndamase, who is an additional magistrate in Pretoria, she was found guilty of 11 charges of misconduct, relating to insubordination, and indolent or negligent execution of duties which resulted in the Magistrates' Commission finding that the conduct for which Ms Ndamase was guilty of was so serious that she be removed from office. The National Assembly confirmed the removal of Magistrate Ndamase on 20 September 2012.
What we are therefore being asked to determine is whether Magistrate Ndamase should be paid for that period during which she was suspended, prior to her removal from office. The portfolio committee concurs with the Magistrates' Commission's determination that there is no reason why a magistrate on suspension should be paid for that period. Accordingly, the portfolio committee recommends that the National Assembly confirms that Magistrate Ndamase's remuneration be withheld.
Finally, we asked this House to adopt the three reports. Thank you.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the report of the committee be adopted and the suspension of Magistrate C M Dumani be confirmed.
Question agreed to.
Report adopted and the suspension of Magistrate C M Dumani accordingly confirmed.
Question put: That the report of the committee be adopted and the withholding of remuneration of Magistrate N E Ndamase be confirmed.
Question agreed to.
Report adopted and withholding of remuneration of Magistrate N E Ndamase accordingly confirmed.
Question put: That the report of the committee be adopted and the suspension of Magistrate L Myles be confirmed.
Question agreed to.
Report adopted and suspension of Magistrate L Myles accordingly confirmed.
The House adjourned at 16:57.
LN / END OF TAKE
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