Hansard: NA: Questions for Oral Reply: Question 5
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 24 Apr 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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WEDNESDAY, 24 APRIL 2013
PROCEEDING OF THE NATIONAL ASSEBLY
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The House met at 15:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
QUESTIONS 5
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, the National Council Against Gender-Based Violence is being fully constituted by the Minister of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities. I have been requested by the Minister, in my capacity as the chairperson of the SA National Aids Council, to serve as a patron of this council, and I have agreed to do so.
As a patron, my responsibility will be to spread the word, mobilise and endorse decisions of the council and the work that the council will be doing. This responsibility is still being fine-tuned as we speak. Thank you.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I thank the hon Deputy President for his answer. We all agree that violence against women and children is perhaps the most disturbing and appalling human rights violation and perhaps the most pervasive in our country. We therefore welcome government's initiative. And thank you for outlining your responsibilities in this regard.
However, hon Deputy President, one does not have to fear that the council will become yet another talk shop considering that it has no powers of implementation. It is not clear whether the council has any new strategies to fight gender-based violence or even adequate resources to execute them. Without dedicated financial and human resources, it will just be another great idea yet another proverbial white elephant. Are we therefore not pinning our hopes on something that will never get off the ground?
In the light of this, hon Deputy President, how will you, as a key role-player, ensure that these challenges are addressed so that the council lives up to its mandate of being a government solution to the pervasive epidemic of rape and gender-based violence in our country? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Through you Speaker, hon Van der Merwe, the council is not meant to be a silver bullet to this problem. We have to deal with it as a societal problem and therefore mobilise all sections of the South African population. For instance, within the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, we have the men's sector which pays particular attention to this challenge. It's already mobilising the men folk to say, "not in our name" and "no violence against women and children." That's the attitude. I suppose we need to mobilise sports people, traditional leaders, religious leaders and everybody to take a stance against violence perpetrated on women and children.
Most of it takes place in the home setting. We have had discussions with my colleague, Minister Mthethwa that from the investigation angle, the SA Police Service, the SAPS, should also up their game with regard to these cases. Of course, the justice system as well will have to treat these cases as the most serious offences. Thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE
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THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Rev K R J MESHOE: Through you Speaker, thank you Deputy President for your reply. When one looks at the responsibilities given to the National Council Against Gender-Based Violence, one is met by a glaring omission of the role of the family in the fight against gender-based violence. The Green Paper on Families: Promoting Family Life and Strengthening Families in South Africa states that, and I quote: "Government recognises that many social ills in South Africa are the result of either weak family systems or non-existent families, altogether."
Since the government has recognised that many social ills including gender-based violence are the results of either weak family system or nonexistence families together, what is the Deputy President, the council and the government planning to do to strengthen the weak family systems that have been identified as one way of combating the gender-based violence? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Meshoe, as I've indicated, the council is really still being constituted, and that I'm going to serve as a patron to the council. It is not meant to develop a detailed programme of work that it will undertake. So, that is work in progress as it is. We don't know yet if the role of the family as a unit in society would not receive prominence in the plan. I have taken note of what you have raised and I am sure that it can be factored into the programme of action. Thank you.
Mrs H LAMOELA
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THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs H LAMOELA: Speaker, hon Deputy President, considering that the National Council Against Gender-Based Violence is located within the budget and administration of the Department of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities whose budget is already overstretched and known for its skewed spending patterns, are we not setting it up for a failure? Rather, why can't we combine the council with the existing structures such as the task team for Hate Crimes or the Intersectoral Committee on Sexual Offences which are both placed within the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, and spend the extra funds on the implementation of existing legislation and policies relating to gender-based violence?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, once again hon members, as I have said, the council is being constituted under the leadership of the Minister of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities and that the focus is really to co-ordinate all the work that is aimed at reducing or eliminating all the perpetrations of violence against women and children.
The suggestion that you have made is well taken. As I said this is work in progress and it could be factored into the programme of action. The Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Development may, for instance, have a budget but would not have the capacity to mobilise because the learned members of that fraternity would not be known for mobilising but known for making submissions about the interpretation of legislations and that kind of work. They would also be monitoring whether the enforcement is in accordance with the law and so on. So, this council will have the role of mobilising all of these instruments to address this challenge which is really of great, great concern to many, many people in our country today. Thank you.
Mrs D M RAMODIBE
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THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs D M RAMODIBE: Hon Speaker, I would like to applaud Mr Deputy President for having accepted to be the patron of the council because this is a direct response to issues raised at the Small Industries Development Organisation, Sido, during the 2011 country report. We believe that by having this council in place, which actually brought together the departments, provinces, civil society, nongovernment organisations, faith-based organisations, traditional leadership and government agencies, it will be able to talk to the people on the ground. Mr Deputy President, would you kindly share with this House your view on how you would make a difference with regard to violence.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, my view is that we should, firstly, strive to ensure that a home becomes a very safe sanctuary for women and children. Also, we must ensure that we eliminate the violation of the safety and rights of women and children because when you look at the statistics, it is very clear that most of the violence takes place within the confines of homes. That should be our first target.
In order to win this battle, we need to mobilise and sensitise everybody to ensure that we educate the younger ones, for instance, we should socialise the boy-child differently. By so doing we may be able to lay down a foundation for a future that will be free of these kinds of activities. That is why concerned men have decided to take a stance by going out to mobilise against the scourge of violence against women and children. Thank you.
QUESTION 6
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QUESTION 5
Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker and hon members, the 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties regulates various aspects of treaties, including conclusion, interpretation and termination. The Convention is regarded by many states, including our country, as forming part of customary international law, that is, its provisions are also binding on states that have not ratified the Convention.
Section 232 of the Constitution of our country provides that: Customary international law is law in the Republic unless it is inconsistent with the Constitution or an Act of Parliament.
The Vienna Convention, to the extent that it is part of customary international law, is therefore law in South Africa and South African treaty practice conforms to its provisions. It is thus unnecessary to accede to the Vienna Convention. It has been acceded to by about 45 countries in the world, but it applies across the board to all countries that are signatories and those that are not. Thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, the Deputy President has failed to give a full and accurate picture of our international obligations. Article 80(1) of the Vienna Convention states that: All treaties signed after 1969 must be submitted to the Secretariat of the United Nations. Article 102 of the UN Charter states exactly the same. This means that South Africa cannot invoke the treaty in front of the United Nations in order to sanction its presence in the Central African Republic.
Further, the treaty is frowned upon for not being open and transparent. The Department of International Relations and Co-operation has confirmed that the extension of the 2007 memorandum of understanding cannot be considered valid. The department also confirmed that the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans did not receive full powers from the President to enter into international relations on behalf of South Africa. Therefore, does the Deputy President not think that it was irresponsible to send the SA National Defence Force to the Central African Republic, CAR, on a memorandum of understanding that did not fully comply with the procedures of the international law that are meant to safeguard against secretive, illegitimate and poorly drafted treaties? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, there is a question asked specifically on the Central African Republic. Therefore, this follow up question may actually be in anticipation of the response that I'm going to give with regards to that question. But nonetheless, article 80 of this treaty under the heading "Registration and publication of treaties" reads as follows:
Treaties shall, after their entry into force, be transmitted to the Secretariat of the United Nations for registration or filing and recording, as the case may be, and for publication. The designation of a depository shall constitute authorisation for it to perform the acts specified in the preceding paragraph.
Hon member Greyling has read this Convention eclectically because he zoomed into one section. It is very dangerous to read any law in that fashion. So, I would leave that to my colleague, Minister Radebe, to try and explain that this Convention, as I said, applies across the board. That is why it has only been acceded to by 45 countries. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, my understanding is that this treaty carries within it the principle of continuity. In other words, the past South African regime, which it was declared to be practicing crime against humanity through its apartheid philosophy that it followed, signed the treaty. Therefore, through this principle of continuity it is necessary for the present government to either ratify the treaty or object to its content or the material areas it contains, depending on whether it complies with the spirit and the content of the 1996 Constitution.
According to my understanding, the question concerns the point whether we have signed it to comply with the principle of continuity or not? To me it's very fundamental. I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Ngonyama, we have not signed this Convention because the need for acceding to it is immaterial. If there is a feeling that perhaps we should accede to it, I would suggest that perhaps the portfolio committee which deals with international relations should mull over that issue. Of course, as the executive, our International Relations and Co-operation Ministry would no doubt be able to benefit from those discussions. As the executive the matter can be considered whether we should really accede to it or not. At the moment, the position is very clear that there is no need for us to accede to it.
Mr M S BOOI
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M S BOOI: Speaker, hon Deputy President, given that there is education being provided about this particular law, I think it is quiet vital that we should continue doing that because it helps us to be able to reflect.
According to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, South Africa is a third state – a state which is not a party to the treaty. Articles 34 to 38 of the Convention do not obligate or illustrate any reasons why South Africa as a third state should be a signatory to the Convention. Noting the above, what would the advantages be for South Africa to become a signatory to the Convention?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There was no question, hon Speaker. Thank you. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
QUESTION 7
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QUESTION 6
Question 7:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as you would no doubt know, HIV and tuberculosis epidemics have been some of the most profound challenges we have faced as a country. Our strategies and programmes continue to improve due to a better grasp of the scientific and social aspects of these diseases.
Over the last three years, a series of comprehensive studies and reviews have been conducted across the entire country and the findings have enabled us to develop a comprehensive, robust evidence-based programme as elaborated in our National Strategic Plan for HIV, TB and sexually transmitted infections for the period 2012-16.
Over the same period, a number of highly impactful policies have been implemented to address the dual epidemics, including the social determinants thereof. These include the introduction of provider-initiated HIV counselling and testing culminating from the roll-out of the worlds' largest HIV Counselling and Testing campaign. This campaign also helped us to identify people who are infected with TB, so enabling us to expand our interventions appropriately. Whilst providing treatment to those who are eligible, the new policies prioritised pregnant women and infants who have been exposed to HIV, as well as those co-infected with both HIV and TB.
Efforts to strengthen our health system include the introduction of new technology such as the GeneExpert machines, which make it possible to diagnose TB infection within two hours, thus improving cure rates. Most notably, we have increased resource allocation to the health sector across all three spheres of government to enable us to achieve our vision of a long and healthy life for all South Africans.
All these investments have moved us closer to our goals and, to date, some of the outcomes we have recorded include the following: over 20 million people have been tested for HIV since April 2010; over 10 million people have been screened for TB; the total number of people on treatment now stands at 1,9 million, which makes our programme the largest in the world; we have noted a decline in HIV and Aids-related mortality, especially among the 25- to 35-years age group; and the transmission of HIV from mother-to-child has decreased significantly over the last three years, from 8% in 2010 to 2,7% nationally.
Our programmes now include the School Health Programme which was launched by the President last year, and we have begun screening and treating inmates for HIV and TB.
At the beginning of this month, the Minister of Health launched the introduction of the fixed-dose drug combination. This means that people on treatment will now receive one pill a day, instead of the three or more tablets they have had to take on a daily basis. This will improve adherence to treatment and reduce the costs of providing treatment to the large number of people who are eligible.
These achievements have not made us complacent. We continue to review our programmes and to introduce new and innovative approaches in line with international guidelines and protocols. In this regard, we will escalate the HIV Counselling and Testing campaign, by urging all South Africans to test at least once every year.
There will also be an activity in this regard here in Parliament. The Minister has been eager to have a public testing and counselling launched for hon Members of Parliament, because, once the population has witnessed the leaders of institutions such as this House participating in campaigns such as this, it will encourage them and will go a long way towards reducing the stigma.
Prevention is the cornerstone of our response, and our National Strategic Plan emphasises the importance of scaling up prevention programmes across the length and breadth of our country. We have come a long way, and we recognise and acknowledge that more needs to be done. And, through multisectoral structures such as the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, the development community and many other community-based organisations, we will realise our dream of an Aids-free South Africa. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms B T NGCOBO
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms B T NGCOBO: Hon Speaker, the Deputy President's response was very detailed and elaborative. However, I would like to know if the Provincial Councils on Aids are just as active and are also working towards the same goal in all the provinces. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, in a number of provinces, we have very effective provincial Aids councils. Of course, the situations are not the same; the best among them is the province of KwaZulu-Natal, followed by Gauteng and the Eastern Cape. In some of the provinces, structures still need to be stimulated. In the past week, we went to Mpumalanga province to hold a plenary session for Sanac, and it was clear to us that that province could do with a bit of assistance. We have, however, developed a programme which the Premier of the province, together with the secretariat of Sanac, will lead to ensure that all the structures in the province are resuscitated and invigorated. We will, as a practice, ensure that we convene the plenary sessions for Sanac in the provinces that are weak or that are trailing behind the other provinces, to ensure that we give them a bit of energy. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, Strategic Objective 3 of the National Strategic Plan on HIV, TB and STIs 2012-16 makes provision for and refers to provisioning of ward-based primary health care teams to assist communities and key participants. Will they be working together with ward committees and community development workers in their respective wards and, if so, how are these activities going to be financed?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes indeed, the answer is in the affirmative; they will be working within the wards. We already have examples of this and have invited the premiers of all provinces and MECs for Health to KwaZulu-Natal because, in KwaZulu-Natal, they have succeeded right down to local ward level. They have created what they call a "war room". This structure brings together all the key participants, from traditional leaders in rural areas to caregivers, community development workers, religious leaders and educationists. Everybody meets in the war room to co-ordinate their responses. The referrals are therefore very informed. In certain cases, for example, they come to the realisation ... they profile families, if one can put it that way. They know the situation of each household and the people who are on treatment. Such families are monitored and supported and where there are referrals that are needed to garner support from, say, the Department of Social Development or any of the Ministries, they do that from the war room itself. So, indeed, it is a model that is already available and is working. It is co-ordinated as a response to HIV/Aids and TB, and the funding comes through Sanac itself. That is why we raise funds from the President's Emergency Fund for Aids Relief, Pepfar, and from other international donors such as the Global Fund to Fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria to support NGOs because this is a response which requires full participation of community-based organisations, and all manner of civil society organisations. Thank you.
Mrs D ROBINSON
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs D ROBINSON: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, we acknowledge that there have been some improvements. However, I would like to know if there is an attempt to ensure that pregnant and other women have broader access to antiretrovirals, ARVs. Also, is the Department of Health intending to reduce the current 400 CD4 count requirement to qualify for ARVs and perhaps bring it down to 350 or less? As we know, the sooner you start treatment the sooner you have a good result. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes indeed, the Department of Health is ensuring that people are put on treatment early enough to prevent mother-to-child transmission and to ensure that babies that are born to HIV-positive mothers are born HIV-negative. So, yes indeed, that is the thrust of the approaches. Thank you.
Mrs H S MSWELI
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs H S MSWELI: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, how do we expect to attain zero new HIV infections when the state of hospitals and clinics is so dismal that they become places that breed infections instead of stopping them, and messages of safe sex and better health have not succeeded in changing people's attitudes towards these diseases? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, the approach of Sanac together with the Department of Health is to ensure that we emphasise prevention. Minister Motsoaledi has always been at pain to explain that we don't have to allow these deceases to spread and then wait at clinics and hospitals for people who are already infected. So our key message is prevention and more prevention.
Research has now indicated that there is a problem if the message is getting across and is well received, but when we look at both boys and girls, we find that there are more girls infected than boys. This means that we have a situation of older men having sex with young girls. That is a problem which requires a much targeted response that tries to discourage these sugar daddies from taking advantage of young girls because they are spreading the disease among young girls.
Otherwise, we are winning the battle where young boys are concerned as there are fewer new infections among young boys than there are among young girls. So, we have got to continue learning and innovating and also targeting our efforts to ensure that we eventually win this battle and attain zero new HIV infections. That is our strategic goal here. Thank you.
QUESTION 8
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QUESTION 7
Question 8:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, since the overthrow of President Francois Bozize's government, in March 2013, the Economic Community of Central African States, Eccas, convened two extraordinary summits of heads of state and government to discuss the situation in the Central African Republic.
President Jacob Zuma participated in both summits at the invitation of President Idriss Déby Itno of the Republic of Chad. At the first meeting held on 3 April 2013, the Eccas heads of state and government condemned the unconstitutional change of power and recommended the establishment of a national transitional council in line with the agreement reached in Libreville in January 2013.
At the next summit held on 18 April 2013, the Eccas heads of state and government noted the establishment of the national transitional council and the appointment of the head of that council. The Eccas heads of state and government reminded the national transitional council that it must prioritise the restoration of peace and security, the revival of administration, economic activities and the preparation for regular elections during the transition period.
South Africa's position, therefore, in relation to the situation currently prevailing in the Central African Republic, takes cognisance of these developments and that, in fact, there is no elected government in that country but a transitional council. Our position is consistent with that of the African Union. Of course, we underscore that in order to achieve lasting peace, prosperity and normality, the Central African Republic will need Africa's co-operation and the contribution from the international community. I thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, yesterday was an opportunity for the hon Minister of Defence to come before this House and provide us with clarity about what happened in the Central African Republic. We are, as many South Africans, deeply, deeply disappointed that the hon Minister opted instead to engage in a politicking exercise instead of accountability on this serious matter.
There is still massive controversy surrounding the reasons for the government's initial deployment of the SA National Defence Force, the SANDF, to the Central African Republic. The memorandum of understanding purporting to sanction our involvement lapsed on 11 February 2007. More fundamentally, it is still unclear why we found it necessary; in the first place, to support a dubious character such as President Francois Bozize, who it seems had a mysteriously excellent relationship with this government.
Mr Speaker, the time has come once and for all to take Parliament into its confidence and end the continued speculation about what the next steps are regarding the Central African Republic. What form is this support going to take? Will the Deputy President, with absolute clarity here today, confirm or deny reports that the government is planning to redeploy troops to the Central African Republic? I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: With a very straight face and a clear conscience, I deny that the government is planning to send troops to the Central African Republic. Thank you. [ Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr D J MAYNIER: Hon Speaker, will the Deputy President tell us whether, given the facts that Parliament was informed that the SANDF was deployed to the Central African Republic, the CAR, in order to provide training and that the Minister has subsequently admitted that the SANDF had in fact been deployed to the CAR as the protection force, he agrees that President Jacob Zuma did not inform Parliament in appropriate detail about the reasons for the deployment of the SANDF to the CAR? The Deputy President has shown himself here today to be a master in the most gentlemanly manner of zigzagging his way around follow-up questions. I would therefore ask him to provide us with the simple yes or no. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, firstly, that is not a follow-up question. It is a different question because the question put to me was: Who does the government currently recognise as the legitimate government of the Central African Republic? That was the question.
However, having said that there is a laid-out procedure of how troops are to be deployed beyond our borders, that procedure is well known to leaders of all political parties in this House. The President will speak to each leader of each party and also inform the Speaker of this august House in writing. That is the procedure, and that is the procedure that the President followed in this case. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: May I remind Members of this House that supplementary questions must relate to the original question.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
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The SPEAKER
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, you have referred to the issue of the interim transitional council, which is currently being recognised by the government and the AU as, perhaps, the legitimate structure. The point that I want to invoke myself is the issue of the necessity for public diplomacy. When we take positions as a democratic country that prides itself on the processes that have unfolded in South Africa, which negate the voice of the people here in South Africa and in the CAR, do we have the endorsement by the civil society and by the people of that country? The reason why I'm asking this question is because we had President Bozize yesterday, and he had won elections, though it was through spurious means. He failed to sign the unity accord out of the elections of 2008. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Ngonyama. This country that we are discussing now has no experience of a government being changed through democratic elections. From 1960, its first President was a gentleman called David Dacko, who was couped by Jean-Bédel Bokassa who later styled himself as an emperor. David Dacko came back in 1981 to stage a coup. He was later also couped by André-Dieudonné Kolingba. André-Dieudonné Kolingba was also couped by Bozize in 2003. Now, Bozize has been couped by the current leader of the transitional council. [Interjections.][Laughter.]
So, the United Nations, the African Union are tired of coupes in that country and are pleading and calling upon everybody to support processes that can stabilise it and lay down a foundation for democracy. The tasks of this transitional council, according to the communiqué are as follows: they must restore order and that the Central African Multinational Force, Fomac armed forces - Fomac yes, not focac, leave the latter part out of it, it's unparliamentary [Laughter.] - have committed to provide about 2000 soldiers to assist in the process of stabilising the country and establishing an armed force as well as the police force.
There is also a monitoring committee - chaired by the President of the Republic of Congo, or Congo-Brazzaville, to monitor the implementation of this agreement. The members of this national transitional council will not be eligible for election. The time line for their work is 18 months. It is hoped that they will be able to craft a constitution and put it to a referendum and prepare for the elections of parliamentarians as well as the president. That is the function of this transitional council. It is in that context that the chair of Eccas is pleading with the AU and the United Nations to support this.
The United Nations was present during the summit, so was the AU, the European Union, the United States of America and the government of France as well as the organisation called the International French-Speaking Organisation. They were all represented, and our President was also invited by the President of the Republic of Chad to observe these deliberations. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr H T MAGAMA
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr H T MAGAMA: Mr Deputy President, yesterday we were told here by the DA that South Africa has no business in, and that it was not in South Africa's national interest to be in a poor African country. Now, we are here to tell you, sir, that Africa is our home, in fact, it's our only home. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order! Proceed, hon member.
Mr H T MAGAMA: Africa is our home, if fact, it is our only home, unlike others, who have a second home outside of the continent, it is our only home. We remain committed to achieving peace, stability and development in Africa, which we view as both the moral responsibility and an extension of our national interest. We understand that there is self-reinforcing and parasitic relationship between conflict and instability on the one hand, and underdevelopment and poverty on the other; such that where there is conflict, strife and instability there is inevitably underdevelopment and poverty marked by huge internal displacement and large numbers of refugees. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Unfortunately, the hon member had not completed his question. Therefore, could you give him an extension of two minutes or so? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: There will be no extension hon Deputy President. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
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QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
role of salga women's commission
Question 106:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Speaker, hon members, the department has engaged with the SA Local Government Association, Salga, in identifying and agreeing on measures to increase women's participation and representation in decision-making positions in local government, in various provinces. The Salga has established the Salga Women's Commissions with a mandate to co-ordinate, promote and advocate for gender appropriate strategies and practices.
The strategic objective of the Salga Women's Commission is to increase the representation and participation of women in local government. The role of these commissions are as follows: to evaluate representation of women by identifying and assessing the relevance of policies and legislation designed to address and promote increased women's participation and gender inequality; identify gender specific social, economic, political, legal and cultural issues that hinder women empowerment; advocate for access to training and capacity-building; make recommendations on appropriate programmes and on remedies of improving the status of women; and contribute towards the achievement of gender equality at local government level.
The commission provides the vehicle for deepening commitment towards substantive representation of women within the local governance structures through increased promotion of women participation. This will ensure that policies and strategies address social, economic, political, legal and cultural constraints that hinder the full participation of women.
During the 2012 Salga Women's Commission Lekgotla, in which the department participated, the objectives that were set out included the following: to induct commissioners on the roles and responsibilities of the Salga Women's Commission; to assess the progress made with regard to gender equality in local government; deliberate on current policy issues pertinent to gender equality debate; and develop a programme of action to guide the functioning and operations of the Salga Women's Commission.
Interventions and measures agreed upon to increase women's representation and participation in local government were decided upon cognisant of also ensuring that we achieve the 50-50 representation of women. The programmes that were agreed to were as follows: leadership training; mentorship and financial management training; gender responsive workplace policies, including sexual harassment policy implementation; institutional transformation to ensure an environment that will allow women to participate and to lead; capacity-building programmes that challenge the patriarchal system within local government; programmes that are transformational rather than event driven; and access to funding so that women can be empowered to realise their goals.
Lastly, hon Speaker, we also deliberated on the Women's Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill and how it will assist in ensuring that women in the local government sphere are empowered, and also that the 50-50 representation reaches the local government sphere. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
Mrs D M RAMODIBE
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The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs D M RAMODIBE: Hon Speaker, let me thank the hon Minister for her elaborate response, however, I want to ask the hon Minister if she has thought of steps that she would take, in case these good practices are not implemented.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Speaker, we are currently working on the Women's Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill, which will enforce the implementation of equal representation of men and women in the public and private sectors. This Bill has been approved by Cabinet and is now open for public comments. We believe in that Bill, and we are looking at measures such as penalties and sanctions for whoever does not implement the prescriptions of the Bill. And I believe that through this Bill, we will be able to enforce these measures. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Ms C K K MOSIMANE
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The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Ms C K K MOSIMANE: Hon Speaker, hon Minister, it is important that women are empowered and participate in decision-making positions. How is the legislation going to educate and empower women in order to participate meaningful and not rubberstamp the decisions that have already been made like in Central African Republic.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not aware that women in the Central African Republic are rubberstamping anything. However, I would like to say to the hon member, we have committed that we are going to go on road shows, go and visit all our provinces and have women's forums, seminars and summits where we are going to educate women and communities about the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill. We are also going to educate them about women's rights, starting with the Constitution and the laws that have been enacted since 1994, which have empowered the women of this country and ensured that their rights are protected. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms C K K MOSIMANE: I have already asked my question, hon Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, thank you. There is space for one. Is there someone?
QUESTION 131
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QUESTION 106
QUESTION 106
Question 131:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, the total cost that was incurred by the department for its participation at the 57th Session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women in 2013 is R1,072 million. The South African delegation comprised of the Minister of Social Development, the Deputy Minister of Police, the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services, senior government officials and I.
The theme of the 57th Session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women was: Elimination and prevention of all forms of violence against women and girls. Therefore, we had mostly the Justice, Crime Prevention, Safety and Security Cluster participating. The role and responsibilities included the following: the Department for Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities was the lead department on content negotiations; the Department of International Relations and Cooperation, represented by the UN Embassy in New York and headed by Ambassador Mamabolo, focused on UN protocol and negotiations; the Department of Social Development focused on victim empowerment, support, prevention, and negotiations, and also participated in a number of side events; the SA Police Service focused on the prevention of gender-based violence, the role of law enforcement agencies in the war against violence against women and children, and the protection of victims, and also participated in side events; and the Department of Correctional Services, led by the Deputy Minister, focused on programmes for men and boys and also the rehabilitation of offenders. The Ministers stayed for the high-level panel sessions only.
There was also a delegation from the human rights institutions, represented by the Commission for Gender Equality. There was also the Film and Publication Board which participated on issues of cybercrime and electronic pornography, particularly child pornography, and Members of Parliament as well as the chairs of the portfolio and select committees. [Time expired.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE
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The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for her response, and I recognise that South Africa needs to go to these UN sessions to report on our country's progress, especially at a time when South Africa faces a real crisis of violence against women and children.
However, opportunities for individuals in our delegations to participate in events there are normally very limited, and the real work that has to be done is here on the ground in South Africa - in affected households in communities. Would it therefore not be more prudent in this current economic climate to use the R1,7 million that was allocated for this trip in areas such as the programmes that you have which are critically underfunded and also to channel it to the nongovernmental organisations - the real people doing the hard work on the ground and who also face real funding problems? Hon Minister, would you in future consider to rather take this approach?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Deputy Speaker, well, the IFP is not ruling South Africa. The IFP has no obligations internationally. This country is highly respected in the international community. It has signed and ratified international instruments and therefore has a responsibility to go every year and report on the progress made by the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, Cedaw, on the optional protocol, and also on the Beijing Platform for Action. We were there with NGOs that were also using their money to go and report, and share experiences and best practices.
I would like to say that the delegation represented South Africa so well that we were highly commended by the Under-Secretary-General of the UN Women, Dr Michelle Bachelet, for the work that we have done. We were highly commended for the launch of the National Council Against Gender-Based Violence on 10 December 2012 - the International Human Rights Day. We were highly commended for the laws we have passed since 1994 to empower women and protect them from violence and abuse. We were highly commended for the role that we are playing in ensuring that lesbians and gays are protected in our Constitution. We were an example for the entire continent, even in the negotiations, in fighting for the rights of lesbians and gay people, and women to be protected from abuse, violence and rape. Also, we were commended for the work we have done with rural women in South Africa in ensuring that they are given the opportunity to come to Parliament to raise their concerns on the Traditional Courts Bill and to ensure that their voices are heard. [Time expired.] Thank you very much.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, I didn't want to disturb the hon Minister whilst she was responding to our question. I just want to object very strongly against the Minister's statement that the IFP is not in government.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: It implies, Deputy Speaker, that the IFP has no rights to ask questions.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, sit down. Hon member, take your seat. [Interjections.]
Ms C K K MOSIMANE
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Ms C K K MOSIMANE: Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister about the criteria used by the Department of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities to appoint delegations to attend events of national importance like the UN gender summits? Did the Minister find the delegation to the 57th Session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women to represent the parliamentary women multiparty caucus? If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Deputy Speaker, as I said, the delegation depended on the theme of that particular year's session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women. As I said, the theme was: The elimination and prevention of all forms of violence against women and girls. This is why we prioritise the Justice, Crime Prevention, Safety and Security Cluster and ensure that those departments that work in the specific area are there. We do inform Parliament every year when the UN Commission on the Status of Women, the CSW, would be sitting. I don't have the powers to tell the Speaker who should be in the delegation of Parliament. I believe the Speaker is actually my boss. I cannot dictate to him. Thank you.
Mrs H LAMOELA
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The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs H LAMOELA: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the answers. Hon Minister, the then acting director-general of your department accompanied you to New York to attend the 57th CSW session. During the past financial year, she was sent back on two occasions as she could not do a proper presentation to the committee on the implementation of the department's turnaround strategy.
Seeing that the department is not where it should be in implementing the turnaround strategy and doesn't seem to have prioritised the implementation thereof, why did you allow her to accompany you? I am asking this question, Minister, because I believe that "charity begins at home." Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Deputy Speaker, the acting director-general was there to help lead the negotiations. She did not stay throughout the session; she came back on time to complete her work. She has presented the turnaround strategy to the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities, and that turnaround strategy was accepted and applauded by the committee. I thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon McIntosh, I think, pressed hon George's thing. [Interjections.]
Mr G B D MCINTOSH
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Deputy Speaker, I am sorry. I was in hon George's seat, because I have a sore leg. My question to the hon Minister is: Before she went to New York, did she or her delegation acquainted themselves with the oldest memorial to women, which records the enormous suffering and heroism of an African group of women, the Women's Memorial in Bloemfontein. If she hasn't visited it, is she planning to visit that memorial?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Deputy Speaker, I have visited Bloemfontein on several occasions. I have also seen the memorial the hon member referred to. I have also attended the memorial lecture, by President Jacob Zuma, of Charlotte Maxeke who led the women of South Africa in 1913 – a century ago - and on whose behalf and that of the other women we are commemorating and celebrating 100 years of the women's struggle in South Africa. We are talking about women who were fighting for a nonracial and nonracist democratic South Africa against the bastion of colonialism at that time. [Applause.]
QUESTION 99
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QUESTION 131
Question 99:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, this is one of the questions which solicit a multiple-choice answer. So, I will give three answers and the hon member will choose which one he prefers. The first answer is no.
The second answer is that the National Youth Development Agency, the NYDA, is established in terms of a legislation passed by this Parliament. This Parliament appoints the board to the NYDA and therefore, if you want to abolish the NYDA, you must repeal the Act. [Interjections.]
The third answer is that according to Census 2011, the young people in our country between the ages of 14 and 35 constitute about 42% which are about 21,7 million of the estimated 51,8 million South Africans. The average age of the South African population is said to be 25 years, which is the youth.
The Quarterly Labour Force Survey, Quarter 4, 2012, estimated that unemployment for the general population is at 24,9%. Young people between the ages of 14 and 35 are estimated to constitute about 72% of the total unemployed. These realities facing our country strengthen the case for a well-co-ordinated and mainstreamed youth development across our society.
South Africa has just witnessed the signing of a youth accord led by the Deputy President. This is a commitment from government, organised business, labour, community structures and young people themselves to collectively tackle the unemployment of our people. This is a demonstration of a country united to deal with challenges facing our young people today.
Unemployment is but one of the many challenges facing our young people in the modern day South Africa. The NYDA is responsible for mainstreaming youth development across the board in our country. It has offices in all provinces and provides services to needy young people of our country which range from career guidance, mentorship, entrepreneurship training, microfinance, business support and the national youth service to access information in order for them to take part in their development.
The NYDA has made great strides in providing youth development opportunities despite its limited resources and the youth development backlogs in South Africa. Therefore, despite the challenges the agency has faced, it remains necessary and critical in our society. The NYDA has new leadership, with energy and expertise, appointed through this Parliament, which is committed to putting the interests of the young people first.
Government is of the view that given the NYDA's three years of existence, it has made great strides and equally has its challenges. Therefore, it still remains a necessary vehicle to assist the youth to realise their goals. And Parliament has appropriated its budget under scrutiny and should continue to hold the agency accountable. I thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING
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Mr L W GREYLING: Deputy Speaker, the hon Minister gave a number of facts and statistics here but failed to disclose that in 2011-12, the NYDA, in fact, missed its targets for projects initiated by the youth, by a staggering 95,9%. This is clearly not a functioning institution. Therefore, how can he continue in all good conscience to inject public money into such a clearly dysfunctional entity when its budget could in fact be far better used in implementing a youth wage subsidy, which could in fact lead to tangible jobs for those millions of the unemployed youth that you in fact mentioned in your response?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, that supplementary question confirmed my response when I said that there are three options from which you can choose. [Interjections.]
Parliament appropriates money to the NYDA directly. Once Parliament has appropriated that money, we have reason not to proceed to give the NYDA the money. If Parliament has not appropriated the money, then you could ask us why we were giving the money to the NYDA. Parliament appropriated the money to the NYDA because Parliament understands that the NYDA has a role to play. It can meet some targets at some point, but Parliament has the responsibility to hold the NYDA accountable through its committees and to make the NYDA account for the funds and the functioning of the NYDA itself. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mrs N W A MICHAEL
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Mrs N W A MICHAEL: Minister, there is a list of one disastrous youth event after the other useless and disastrous youth event, not to mention the spectacular failure of the Youth Parliament that was attempted to be held in this very House last year. What exactly has the NYDA offered in terms of real youth development and the enhancement of the lives of young South Africans, as the mere offering of services to media agencies doesn't positively affect the lives of millions of the unemployed youth?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, every year the NYDA presents its annual report. We detail its activities and what it has done. We could at this forum share with you a part of that annual report which you have in your possession, which I thought you would have pointed out what did not happen in terms of the annual report.
However, the number of active young people in the mentorship programme of the NYDA for the 2010-11 financial year was 1 000, for 2009-10 it was 1 354 and for 2011-12 it was 1 578, which makes it 3 932 in total. That is part of the work of the NYDA which is contained in the annual report.
The number of youth that underwent entrepreneurship training for the past three years totals about 71 922. The value of the loans disbursed through the microfinance group and small and medium-sized enterprises, the SMEs, lending is about R97 million for the past three years. The number of loans issued to microenterprises groups and SMEs is over R33 000. The number of jobs created through the projects which the NYDA is responsible for, is over 73 000. The number of business-support consultancy vouchers issued to young people in terms of the strategic plan of the NYDA is over 7 000. The value of business opportunities which have been sourced through the NYDA by young people is over 145 million. The value of business opportunities accessed by young people through the NYDA is over 51 million. The number of young people provided with job preparedness training is over 30 000. The number of youth enrolled in the National Youth Service programme is over 138 000. The number of young people accessing information through the NYDA's service delivery access points is over two million. The number of NYDA information dissemination and access points is over 470 000.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member that is a long list.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND
EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, it is. That is why I was referring them to the report which they have. [Applause.]
Mr B M BHANGA
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Mr B M BHANGA: Deputy Speaker, Minister, it might sound true, but the ordinary youth of uMqanduli cannot be part of what you are said. The current legal framework of the NYDA does not compel the Ministers who are sitting here to account, and to develop a programme that relates to the NYSD programme. That is why they cannot tell us exactly what each and every department of these Ministers sitting here is doing for the National Development Youth Agency.
The amount of money to the disposal of the NYDA is not even enough to respond to the things you mentioned. Why can't we create a youth ministry that will be budgeted for by this Parliament, accountable to this Parliament, and implement the programmes that are not only for the youth of the ANC? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, Hon Members!
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND
EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, in its report, the NYDA continues to express the view that given the minimum resources it has, it is not able to spread itself throughout the country. The NYDA is partnering with municipalities to ensure that it establishes offices in municipalities. It has not been able to go to that level because of resources.
However, departments, state entities and other institutions have been encouraged, on their own, to include in their programmes, youth development programmes which will contribute towards dealing with youth problems in the country. We have been calling on everybody in society, both the private sector and the public sector, to ensure that they have programmes which are not dependent on the NYDA alone, but programmes which they have to champion, to ensure that it happens. We hope that during the Budget Vote debates, Ministries, departments and institutions will elaborate on their programmes which include youth development and empowerment, so that all of us contribute towards dealing with the scourge of problems that our youth is facing in the country.
Mr E M SOGONI
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Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker, we are not use to this technology. My understanding is that the NYDA accounts to this House through the committee on which all members of the parties are represented. Can the hon Minister explain to the House: Is it the responsibility of the Minister to invite members - who don't want to participate and don't read those annual reports which are easily available to this House - to the NYDA's meetings when it is reporting on the annual performance plans and the strategic plans?.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, they are still being invited.
QUESTION 111
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QUESTION 99
Question 111:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, I had wanted to rise on this point of order earlier but I'd like to use this opportunity. I ask you to please prevail on the hon Leader of the Opposition to refrain from blowing kisses to Minister Blade Nzimande. He has had to flee from this unwarranted attention. It is unparliamentary and the hon member should stop IT, please! [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that why he disappeared from his seat?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: That is exactly why he had disappeared from his seat!
This is to hon Ximbi. Nothing could have made my job easier than when the National Development Plan was universally adopted by all spheres of government, and to quote the hon Trevor Manuel: "At the nub of the plan is that we must find a way in which the engine can work. The grand schemes that we have - the grand plan we have – will not fly until the engine is working." This has allowed us to focus our attention on this immediate matter of fixing the engine which is the public service. Here are some of the measures that we have prioritised to deal with how we fix this particular engine: Firstly, we want to emphasise the professionalisation of the public service over and over again; secondly, the creation of an environment that is conducive to work and one that will result in greater efficiency; thirdly, the rewarding of outstanding work done by our public servants; fourthly, the responsiveness of the public service to problems in our communities; fifthly, compulsory training to instil a culture and ethos of accountability and responsibility in the public service; sixthly, tough action to be taken against corruption; seventhly, centralisation of certain disciplinary cases, especially cases involving corruption to send a swift message that we will not tolerate corruption; eighthly, to emphasise the use of technology to harness our efficiency; ninthly, to make sure that we can built partnerships with labour and the private sector; and finally, to make sure that we can make savings in this particular current year on funded posts that are unoccupied. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu D L XIMBI: Hayi, andinawo umbuzo olandelayo. Ndonelisekile yimpendulo kaMphathiswa.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
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Mnu D L XIMBI
English:
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L RAMATLAKANE: Mphathiswa, andonelisekanga. Ndifuna ukubuza lo mbuzo, njengoba sele utshilo okokuba unamanyathelo asixhenxe oza kuwathatha. Ngaphambili ukhe wachaphazela into yokuba kubekho isikolo esiza kufundisa amagosa oluntu ukwenzela ukuba akwazi ukwenza umsebenzi ngendlela eyiyo. Khange uyithethe ke loo nto kwimpendulo yakho ngoku. Ndifuna ukuqonda ukuba ingaba, njengokuba namhlanje iPublic Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, isenza lo msebenzi wokufundisa amagosa oluntu, kwaye ifundisa inani eliphantsi lamagosa minyaka le, uza kukwazi kusini na ukuyilwela into yokuba ingxowa-mali yokufundisa amagosa oluntu inyuke kancinci ukuze bakwazi ukuwenza lo msebenzi bafanele ukuwenza, lo sele uphawulwe kwisiCwangciso soPhuhliso seSizwe, NDP?
Sesotho:
LETONA BAKENG SA TSHEBELETSO LE TSAMAISO YA SETJHABA: Mohlomphehi Ramatlakane, ke o rata ha o bua Sesotho hobane ka nnete ho a ipontshahatsa hore Xhamela ha a o ruta qapodiso ya SeXhosa. [Ditsheho.]
English:
Allow me, however, to respond to this very important question of yours in English and to paraphrase what hon Ramatlakane has put across to me. He would like to find out if, in fact, we are continuing with the Palama programme because he had hoped that I would deal with the issue of the school of government in my response.
I am very glad, hon Ramatlakane, that you have asked this question because I did want to put it across. One of the central foundations of what we are doing in professionalising the public service and ensuring that all public servants immediately go to school, is to change the position that we had placed ourselves in, that of having the Palama institution, which served as a conduit on a very small scale to take public servants and make sure that they are enrolled in universities. What we are doing now is creating our own capacity in the school of government. We hope to unveil this in October, in honour of our hero of the struggle, Oliver Tambo, who was born in October. This will take place this year in October where we will launch the school of government.
We want to make sure that there are compulsory induction courses which are already underway, and will be part of the school. We have in place a team of people who are assisting me to make sure that we have the necessary coursework, infrastructure and support from the private sector to make the programmes that we are putting together a success.
We would like to make use of this opportunity to congratulate all those Members of Parliament who passed and graduated recently from a programme we jointly have between ourselves and the University of the Witwatersrand. We hope that the public servants will take cue from this and take the leadership from you to ensure that they use the opportunity that we are providing them. Thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, both the National Development Plan and the Public Service Commission have reported that cadre deployment has, for all practical purposes, boomeranged on the ANC government. What are your plans and timelines to either upskill these cadres adequately or replace them with competent and capable persons to deliver on the NDP outcomes? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Marais, when I was the Minister of Housing, I worked very closely with the City of Cape Town. At that time it was led by the ANC. We then had a change of government, and the DA-led government came into place in the City of Cape Town. Almost overnight, everybody who was in that Department of Housing was changed. The DA took the opportunity to put their own people in place - in government. That was never called cadre deployment. It is only called cadre deployment when the ANC uses it. [Applause.]
Right from the outset, we had the responsibility of ensuring that there is sufficient representativity in the public sector in line with the Constitution. We wanted to make sure there are enough people who understand the policies of the ANC in the public sector. Therefore, we wanted to make sure that we can put our people to take up positions of responsibility to drive the programmes of the ANC. It is acceptable worldwide and this is what we are doing. The reason why we have now instituted compulsory training is to ensure that anybody – not only those that are deployed by the ANC – who enters the public sector has sufficient training and education to be able to give the necessary services to our people. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 100
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QUESTION 111
Question 100:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Marais, yes, I am glad you are very keen to understand what we're doing in relation to the legislation that prohibits public servants from entering into business with government. What we have done is to amend the current Public Service Act and add a clause that will allow us to ensure that we can put the necessary prohibition of any practice that we find unethical and being of a corrupt nature in it. We have done this; and we hope that by the end of the month of June 2013, we will place the Bill before Parliament. Hon Marias, we also hope that you will fast track this so that it can come into force before the end of the financial year next year.
The Bill is currently before the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, and when we will be done with the amendment, we will put it through the Parliamentary processes. Thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr S J F MARAIS: Deputy Speaker, does the Minister agree that had she supported the DA's Private Member's Bill on this matter, South Africa would have been much closer to a resolution by now and that these relevant public servants wouldn't be benefiting further from tax payers' hard-earned money? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: No, by the time the DA brought their Private Member's Bill, we were well done with our own amendment. The process of amending a Bill is quite involved and we had already done all the necessary footwork. So, the work that the DA did was really not necessary. Thank you very much for all your efforts; next time we will consider them. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N D DU TOIT
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr N D DU TOIT: Deputy Speaker and Minister, public servants stand to make millions of rands from doing business with the state. Even if legislation imposes a stiff fine or incarceration or suspended sentences, the fines and can be offset by the profits or the proceeds made. Minister, what is your view? Under the law, should transgressing public servants be forced to pay back these proceeds into state coffers?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Du Toit, we will be bringing the Bill before Parliament, and I am certain that we will engage with you, and that kind of recommendation will be very welcome and we will consider it. Thank you.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for her reply. Following your reply Minister, I just want to find out about the clause, that you are suggesting will be inserted in the current law, if it will make a provision for the money that has been milked out of the public coffers by the officials, as reported by the attorney-general, to be returned to the coffers of the state in terms of the legislation that you are going to amend?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: No, the amendment will be to prohibit conduct by a member of having business links with the state. Beyond that, we have not reached that point. It would be a point of what we would do when there is an offence. As I indicated to hon Du Toit, the Bill will be before Parliament, and should you want to have this clause inserted in the Bill, we will be more than welcome to accommodate that. Thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Deputy Speaker, I used Mr Singh's thing, but I am not Mr Singh. [Laughter.] While I appreciate that this Bill will come before Parliament as soon as June this year, we often find that we have enough legislation, but fall short in implementation. My question to the hon Minister is: Will this Bill have enough checks and balances to ensure that it is implementable?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Should I answer the hon member or hon Singh on the thing that you referred to? [Interjections.] Please protect me from the howling. As you said, in government we already had measures in place to ensure that our public servants behave in a particular way. I quite agree with you. If we don't use those measures, very little comes out of it.
We have put in place additional measures now which I will be discussing with Cabinet very soon. We are assisted by technological advances to ensure that we can monitor this process. Over and above that, we have created an office for standards and compliance which is responsible for ensuring that public servants comply with the laws that are put in place to ensure that there is good governance. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I just hope that you've noticed the attraction of the hon Maynier as sharp as you've noticed the interest of the hon Mazibuko to Blade. [Laughter.] He can't stop smiling when you talk. [Laughter.]
QUESTION 126
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 269
QUESTION 100
Question 126:
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, we appointed a ministerial task team last year and mandated it to address some of the issues we identified as needing attention in the demarcation process in areas such as the following: Firstly, the reasons for considering changes or possible changes of municipal boundaries every time we go for local government elections; secondly, whether the public participation process is managed in an environment where all the people have an equal say in influencing possible changes in the municipal boundary situations; thirdly, whether the system is not open to manipulation where the changes may only suit certain individuals who may be more vocal or advantaged by whatever factors; and fourthly, whether all changes to municipal boundaries will lead to a better state for a municipality to deliver the services required by the people.
Having dealt with this, the task team will report to us with a view to provide the necessary remedies in case there are challenges.
According to the original mandate, the target date for the task team to report was the end of July 2013. This target date has since been adjusted due to the consideration of pressing issues at the public discourse. The task team was instructed to wind up and report as a matter of urgency. It will be presenting its report tomorrow after which we will chart a way forward on the issues that the team was working on.
Yes; the task team engaged with the Municipal Demarcation Board on an issue-by-issue basis, related to their respective mandates. It has consulted with the board to introduce its programmes as part of multistakeholder engagement sessions and also on one-by-one engagements. We engaged the board at the conceptualisation stage by taking it on board. In fact, the chairperson of the demarcation board is part of this task team. I thank you.
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 269
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA: Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister arising from your response, after the intervention in Zamdela, Sasolberg, there was a joint statement made between yourself and the demarcation board. In the statement, the Minister promised to identify areas that have a potential or a spark to demarcation-related protests. How far are you with that investigation in this regard?
Also, in your response you further mentioned that the mandate of the task team is supposed to end in July 2013. The target date has since been revised. I want to find out from the Minister, when is the work of the task team envisaged to be finalised? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, yes indeed the Minister and the chairperson of the demarcation board made a joint statement that we are working together through the task team and the demarcation board to identify areas where people raised issues related to the demarcation processes that may need attention.
Inasfaras progress in this regard is concerned in this regard; we are attending to these issues on an issue-by-issue basis. The Zamdela case as raised by the hon member is one of those cases, and we will continue to deal with the issues as we get ourselves involved through the task team and the board.
The revised target was that instead of us sticking to July when there are questions that appeal for urgent attention and where we would need to take decisions soon, we requested the task team to wind up its work and they have done so. That is why I indicated that we will receive a report from the team tomorrow. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I do not have any question on this topic. Are you all satisfied? Can you press your thing again? [Laughter.]
Mr P F SMITH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 269
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr P F SMITH: Madam Deputy Speaker, I have pressed repeatedly. Your system is not working. [Laughter.] If I may chairperson, after the Sasolberg disaster, I can understand the Minister's desire to intervene and get things right. I think that it is important that he does not give the impression that he conflates his role as a Minister and the role of the board which is meant to be independent. Sometimes the words that the Minister uses give the impression that he is the tail wagging the dog instead of the other way around when it comes to demarcation. For an example, it was widely reported that the Minister stopped the demarcation process – he stopped it. His chief of staff denied this and said it was a joint decision, but on radio he was quoted as saying, "I took the decision, let us stop the process." That is the kind of a thing which creates a problem. And the Minister also said that this task team is there to babysit the process. If you babysit the process, who is in charge, the baby or the babysitter? It seems to me that we have an independent board and a Minister who has responsibilities. I think that it is important, and the Minister agrees, but the words he uses undermine the independence of the board.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, we indicated clearly to the nation that we have a responsibility to make sure that there is stability in the local government area. We indicated to the nation very clearly and we addressed the portfolio committee - the hon member was there - that in a situation where there is total chaos, where there is a collapse of order because of issues related to us having executive responsibility, we will not be folding our arms. We are not going to get ourselves deep into semantic questions.
However, the fact here is that in consultation with the demarcation board and all the parties involved, we had to create a conducive environment where the board, the municipality, the provincial government and the community, in the absence of intimidation and violence, could engage on these issues to find a solution to the challenges. That is why we acted and we will continue to do so. There is nothing like conflating our powers. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr J R B LORIMER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 269
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr J R B LORIMER: In light of the appointment of this task team which amounts to the acceptance of the fact that the Municipal Demarcation Board may have done its work improperly, are there other specific instances where the Minister will re-examine the past work of the demarcation board, and what criteria will have to be met for the investigation in order for the work of the demarcation board to take place?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, the demarcation board has not done its work improperly. We have to indicate that it is clearly and expressly stated in the Act passed by this august House that every time we dealt with the preparations for local government elections, we also have to consider whether we want to redetermine the municipal boundaries. What the board is doing is in compliance with the Act. In complying with the Act, as you know, issues of possible redetermination of boundaries become emotive themselves.
People have interest and identify with these issues; so what we are doing is not to suggest that the board has failed. The board is doing its work. What we are saying is that we need to revisit how we do things in terms of the dispensation that we have created. It is more about the dispensation than about specific actors in the process. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 269
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr D A KGANARE: Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister will you just "call a spade a spade". The truth of the matter is that your appointment of this task team is indicative of your attitude towards the demarcation board; that it is nothing else but a toy telephone of the ANC. [Laughter.] Will you confirm that this demarcation board has not done its job; it is failing to do its job and that is the reason why you have appointed the task team? Stop "beating about the bush" because the truth of the matter is that you have no confidence in this demarcation board and that is why you appointed the task team.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, a spade will remain a spade and we will call it as such. We have confidence in the demarcation board - no question about that. The mandate here is never to look at the activities of the demarcation board but to address the process as defined in terms of the law; to address some of the issues where you will find a situation where, when it comes to public participation; the issue would be straight forward that we need to manage those issues.
At the moment, the Act allows anyone to come out with a proposal to move the demarcation line from one side to the other. When the board deals with those issues, in certain instances, it rejects them and when it does so, it becomes an issue. Therefore we are strengthening the board, but we are also strengthening the process itself instead of saying which areas to demarcate after every five years, which actually is a factor that is working against our ability to plan, how do you plan for a period of more than five years when you are not sure whether the boundary of this municipality will change in five years time or not. It is just to strengthen the process, there is nothing like no confidence in the board.
I would not have appointed the chairperson of the demarcation board to be a member of the very same task team if I did not have confidence in him. So, we have to get the point very clear. "Call a spade a spade" but even those who are listening to you calling things by their real names must come to the party and understand that yes it is true, it is a spade. It is our demarcation board. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.
NOTICES OF MOTION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr S J NJIKELANA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that, in its next sitting, the House debates the significance and impact of energy prices on the socioeconomic wellbeing of the citizens and the role parliamentarians can play to manage such.
Mr M MNQASELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mr S J NJIKELANA
Mr M MNQASELA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the DA that, in its next sitting, the House debates the accessibility of the government services to citizens, especially those in rural communities and find solutions to the challenges.
Mrs R E NYALUNGU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mr M MNQASELA
Mrs R E NYALUNGU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that, in its next sitting, the House debates the strengthening of institutions to support innovation, research and development in agricultural activities.
Mr E J MARAIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mrs R E NYALUNGU
Mr E J MARAIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the DA that, in its next sitting, the House debates the Saldanha Bay Industrial Development Zone and its contribution to stimulating the local economy.
Mr S ABRAM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mr E J MARAIS
Mr S ABRAM: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that, in its next sitting, the House debates the violation of slaughtering practices, processing of meat products and food labelling regulations and the resultant impact thereof on our economy, ethics, religious beliefs and the health of our people. [Applause.]
Mrs D R TSOTETSI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mr S ABRAM
Mrs D R TSOTETSI: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that, in its next sitting, the House debates addressing the rights and vulnerability of migrants.
Ms A C MASHISHI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 270
Mrs D R TSOTETSI
Ms A C MASHISHI: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the ANC that, in its next sitting, the House debates measures to prevent the further development of housing in marginal places.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 271
NOTICES OF MOTION
DR NKOSAZANA DLAMINI-ZUMA TO BE AWARDED ORDER OF LUTHULI IN GOLD
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without:
That the House-
(1) notes that Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma will be awarded the order of Luthuli in Gold by President Zuma on Saturday, 27 April 2013;
(2) further notes that this award recognises South African citizens who have contributed to the struggle for democracy, nation-building, building democracy and human rights, justice and peace, as well as for the resolution of conflict;
(3) believes that Dr Dlamini-Zuma is a deserving recipient for her exceptional life's work to the cause of freedom for the people of South Africa and the development and consolidation of our democracy in the quest to create a better life for all;
(4) acknowledges that, as a veteran of the fight against apartheid, Dr Dlamini-Zuma has served in the Cabinet of every South African President since Nelson Mandela;
(5) remembers that her commitment and dedication to uplifting the lives of the masses saw her introducing legislation that overhauled a highly unequal system and gave poor people access to free basic care; and
(6) congratulates Dr Dlamini-Zuma, thanks her for the inspiring role she continues to play and wishes her well in her future endeavours.
Agreed to.
Mrs S V KALYAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 271
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
PROF VALERIE MIZRAHI OF UCT RECOGNISED FOR EXTENSIVE RESEARCH INTO TUBERCULOSIS
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without:
That the House-
(1) notes that Prof Valerie Mizrahi, Director of the Institute of Infectious Disease and Molecular Medicine at the University of Cape Town, has been awarded the Grand Prix Christophe Mérieux by the Institute de France in Paris, for her extensive research into tuberculosis;
(2) further notes that Prof Mizrahi will receive a €500 000 prize – the equivalent of R6 million – from the Institute de France in recognition of her work and that the prize money will be used to further fund her institute;
(3) acknowledges that Prof Mizrahi will be presented with her award by the Institute de France's Academy of Sciences at a ceremony in Paris on 5 June 2013;
(4) further acknowledges Prof Mizrahi's active involvement within the tuberculosis community in South Africa, on the African continent and internationally to combat the stigma and marginalisation that comes with tuberculosis and advance effective treatment;
(5) recognises the importance of extensive research into mycobacterium tuberculosis and tuberculosis in order to combat and eradicate the disease from our communities; and
(6) congratulates Prof Mizrahi on being given this prestigious award and commends her for her efforts in combating tuberculosis.
Agreed to.
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 271
Mrs S V KALYAN
ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS DESMOND TUTU AWARDED TEMPLETON PRIZE
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without:
That the House-
(1) notes that on Thursday, 4 April 2013, the US-based Templeton Foundation awarded the $1,7 million Templeton Prize to Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu for his lifelong work to promote love and forgiveness;
(2) further notes that the 81-year-old Nobel Peace Prize laureate, who rose to fame in the 1980s as a vocal opponent of South Africa's apartheid regime, will be presented with the award at a ceremony in London on 21 May;
(3) recalls that the Templeton Prize, one of the world's largest annual awards, is given each year to "a living person who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension";
(4) further recalls that the first winner of the Templeton Prize was Mother Teresa, in 1973, and that last year's winner was the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader, who gave the money to charity; and
(5) congratulates the anti-apartheid icon Archbishop Tutu on this great achievement.
Agreed to.
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 April 2013 Take: 271
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
FLORENCE MASEBE WINS BEST ACTRESS AWARD AT AFRICA MOVIE ACADEMY AWARDS
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without:
That the House-
(1) notes that on Saturday, 20 April 2013, a local TV star, Ms Florence Masebe, won the award of Best Actress in a Leading Role at the Africa Movie Academy Awards in a ceremony at Yenagoa, Nigeria;
(2) further notes that she won the award for her role in a short Venda film, Elelwani, in a difficult category against famous names such as Nollywood royalty Rita Dominic;
(3) remembers that the film, written and directed by Ntshavheni wa Luruli, tells the story of a young woman who has to negotiate the tension between her Venda traditions and her modern aspirations;
(4) acknowledges the great impact this movie is making in Africa and the international arena in brilliantly telling South African stories and exposing the world-class talent within our film industry; and
(5) congratulates Ms Masebe and all those involved in the making of this movie on receiving the award and wishes them success in their future endeavours.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:13.
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