Hansard: NA: Debate on Use of Air Force Base Waterkloof by GUPTA Family: Matters of Public Importance
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 21 May 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 375
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-375] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
START OF DAY
WEDNESDAY, 22 MAY 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
___________
The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 375
START OF DAY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY moved: That the House, notwithstanding Rule 29 which provides for the sequence of proceedings, limits the business for today's sitting to the debate on the matter of public importance in terms of Rule 103.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 375
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
USE OF SA AIR-FORCE BASE WATERKLOOF BY GUPTA FAMILY
(Matter of Public Importance)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, at the outset, I wish to convey my sincere gratitude to you for acceding to my request for the debate on this important issue.
This is the first debate of public importance since the year 2000. So, it is chilling to think that in the 19 years of our young democracy, the people of South Africa, who we all collectively represent, were denied such debates for 13 years.
I know the ANC did not want this debate ... [Interjections.] ... and tried to delay it. However, Parliament cannot only debate what the ANC wants to debate, which, as we all know, is consistently dedicated to commemorations, celebrations, congratulations and ceremonies. Those are issues that do not touch the everyday lives of South Africans, while steering clear of the most important things of all, namely, scandals and controversies.
I ask you, Sir, is this the democracy that was envisaged for the new South Africa, where debate is now suppressed rather than encouraged; and where senior politicians use the country ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... as their own personal fiefdom?
A true democracy does not only benefit the chosen few, but all those who live in it, and the misuse of power is the very essence of tyranny, I say. Consider, if you will, the implications of that for a free society.
By the Cabinet using officials as scapegoats in this appalling incident which has become known as "Guptagate", this ANC government has made a mockery of the concept of accountability. It has made a mockery of our police service; a mockery of our defence force;
a mockery of our diplomacy; a mockery of our immigration controls; a mockery of democratic systems; a mockery of and our hard fought Constitution; and indeed, sir, it has made a mockery of all we hold dear as a nation.
Mr Speaker, the President's absence from the House is also noticeable this afternoon. [Interjections.] This is much like his absence of leadership ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... the lack of which resulted in officials being blamed, rather than the Cabinet taking responsibility.
The President is our commander in chief, yet he forgets that the buck stops with him. What sort of leader is this? A leader who answers tough questions by laughing? A leader who ignores High Court orders to produce tapes that could bring justice to the arms deal scandal? A leader who spends over R200 million on his house rather than the poor? A leader whose very name results in questionable access to a military airbase, which brought the entire country into disrepute?
This, Mr Speaker, is a leader who inspires no confidence. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT / A N N
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 376
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-376] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, members of this House, for the past 22 days our country has been inundated with the landing of a Jet Airways Airbus A330-200 at the Air Base Waterkloof ferrying international guests to a wedding celebration which was held at Sun City.
On behalf of the Justice Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster I wish to address this House and highlight the various actions which were taken by the government to investigate this matter and to bring certainty that an action of this nature does not take place again.
There have been a number of misinterpretations of facts and we are accustomed to the approach of opposition parties who choose to appoint themselves as prosecutor, judge and jury. We have become used to opposition parties reaching a verdict while lacking any of the facts and opposition parties responding hysterically when facts of the matter do not fit their own fabricated conclusions. [Interjections.]
In the spirit of transparency and our desire to bring this matter to a satisfactory closure, I wish to inform this House that I have acceded to the request of the Public Protector by furnishing her with a copy of this report.
There is only one report, this report, coming from the investigating team and it has been released to the public today. Criticising the report without having had the benefit of reading it would be informed by a much more sinister motive than the official report. It will be informed in my view by the accusations of a cover up even before the report was presented to the JCPS cluster of Ministers. Other than speculation, it is inconceivable that persons other than the ones who had commissioned the report would have access to it before it is presented to the cluster of Ministers.
The Ministers in the JCPS cluster applied their minds to the report and resolved to accept its contents. We are aware that there are some within this House who may want a new route to the one we have taken. We will not dictate to the House what decision to take on this new route. We can only reiterate that having applied our minds to this report, we are convinced that it has satisfied the mandate given to the investigating team.
There was full co-operation of all Departments and role players. Included in the methodology was the collection of sworn statements, affidavits, and in loco visits. We are convinced that there exists no other methodology other than the one deployed to arrive at conclusions of this nature.
The investigating team had already started with their investigations as from 1 May 2013. Based on preliminary investigations which were undertaken by government, swift action was immediately taken against implicated individuals. On 2 May 2013 the Ministers gave the Committee of Director-Generals seven working days to conduct the investigations.
The investigating team of four highest ranking officials comprised of one black woman director-general, one African male director-general, one African male acting director-general and one white male acting co-ordinator of the Intelligence Services. This excluded the directors-general of the departments whose officials were directly involved on the collusion. We are confident that the investigating team carried its tasks in a professional and diligent manner. They met all deadlines set by the JCPS cluster of Ministers.
What are the facts, not fiction?
In February 2013 the Gupta family approaches the Airports Company of South Africa and requested landing rights and an elaborate reception of the wedding party. This would have disrupted the functioning of O R Tambo International Airport at the time of landing, particularly the operations of the National Immigration Branch at the airport. [Interjections.] As a result, the Airports Company SA and the Minister of Transport turned down this request.
In March 2013 the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans and her political advisor were approached by the Gupta family on different occasions. On 3 April 2013 this request was also turned down by the Minster of Defence and Military Veterans. The Gupta family then resorted to the use of the diplomatic channel with the support of an individual in the Indian High Commission who redesignated the wedding entourage as an official delegation in order to enable them to use the Air Force Base Waterkloof under cover of diplomatic privilege.
It is an undisputed fact that there was no official note verbale from the Indian High Commission to the Department of Internal Relations and Co-operation, and therefore due process was not followed. An individual in the Indian High Commission communicated directly with individuals at the air force command post. The collusion of officials resulted in the irregular approval of the flight clearance.
The aircraft in question was therefore cleared for landing and the correct clearance procedures were followed, but based on false pretences, as a result of this manipulation of the process by the Gupta family, individuals in the Indian High Commission, the Chief of State Protocol, Ambassador V B Koloane and officer commanding movement control at the base, Lieutenant-Colonel C Anderson, who shared a common purpose and acted in concert. This had the potential of damaging the good diplomatic and deep historical relations South Africa enjoys with India on the bilateral, multilateral, international and Brics level.
Ambassador Koloane admitted under investigation that the request as for the Gupta family wedding, an admission that the status of the visit, was clearly not official, diplomatic or military and that the incoming party was not a delegation in the official understanding of the term.
The Director-General in the Presidency made it clear that no one in the Presidency ever gave any instruction in the conduct of ambassador Koloane. This included the private office of the President.
The reference to an invitation of the Indian delegation to the Free State Provincial Government was opaque, as no member of this party travelled to the Free State for such a meeting. However, an Indian State Minister, an equivalent of an MEC was received by the Free State MEC for Agriculture three days prior to the arrival of the Gupta wedding party. This Indian State Minister therefore arrived in, and departed from South Africa completely separate from the Gupta wedding party, despite attending the wedding at Sun City.
As government, we reiterate that those who are found by the continuing investigation to have colluded will be dealt with in a decisive manner with the requirement of the labour processes attached thereto.
Six cases have been opened at the Sun City Police Station and the report reflects the pieces of legislation that were infringed and the relevant case numbers. In spite of one media report this morning, no decision has been taken to withdraw the case relating to this incident. The National Prosecuting Authority, as we speak, is dealing with these matters.
Members of the executive were not required to issue any instruction, did not issue any instruction and did not create the impression that they ought to have issued any instructions. There is factual and incontrovertible evidence, both real and direct, that would stand even in a court of law. This evidence clearly shows that the two officials are not fall guys or scapegoats, as we are made to believe, but masters of this manipulation of process. We therefore say that the only logical conclusion is that they were on a frolic of their own. We dispel any notion that the plane just landed as it was authorised by and cleared albeit through the manipulation of the process. [Interjections.]
Any insinuation of a cover up as alluded to by opposition party leaders and some commentators are clearly misplaced. Their stance is informed by their viewing of a legal issue from a political, uninformed and emotional perspective.
In conclusion, Mr Speaker, we are aware that with the next elections being just around the corner, every effort will be made to use the report, in spite of its comprehensiveness, as a tool to garner support for certain political parties and individuals within them. [Applause.] It would be wrong for us to decide on the elections strategies and tactics of other political parties and individuals, but to caution against unnecessary overexaggeration of facts without corroborative and incontrovertible evidence being brought forward.
If there are individuals in both this House and the general public who have information that would strengthen further investigations into this matter, they are at liberty to submit this to the police and investigating officers.
We have demonstrated our transparency and responsiveness in addressing this incident. We will continue to work even harder and better to secure our country and ensure that our people are and feel save. In doing so, we will not fall prey to the small-mindedness and copping that the opposition makes itself guilty of every time a matter of national importance arises. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER / src / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 377
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-377] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, President Jacob Zuma told us during the state of the nation address on 14 February 2013 that government was waging war against corruption. But, just minutes before, he had welcomed special and distinguished guests, which included none other than Atul Gupta, who was sitting, of all places, in the presidential box.
The President did not hesitate to flaunt his close relationship with the Guptas, right here under our noses, in Parliament. That neatly illustrates, as the President likes to say, "Where the problem comes". Because, the root cause of the problem, which led to Guptagate, is President Jacob Zuma. He is responsible for creating the culture of undue influence referred to in the investigation report. That is why the President should have been here today to account to Parliament rather than hiding away from us in the Union Buildings.
When the Jet Airways Airbus landed at Waterkloof Air Force Base on 30 April 2013, it triggered massive political fallout. Years of frustration with President Zuma's sugar daddies, which includes the Shaiks, the Reddys and the Guptas, who make up Zuma Incorporate, Inc, exploded. Something snapped inside the ruling party and even Gwede "Don't upset Ministers" Mantashe was moved to issue a public statement condemning Guptagate. With the situation spinning out of control, the hon Jeff Radebe, the damage control officer in chief, was brought in to contain the political fallout.
It came as no surprise therefore that the investigation effectively exonerated President Zuma and members of his Cabinet. The Minister was at pains to point out that Ministers were not involved in this matter. Well, the fact is nobody believes that not one Minister knew anything about the three-fixed wing aircraft, seven helicopters, 88 vehicles and 490 personnel supporting a private function from Waterkloof Air force Base.
The Minister went on to make an extraordinary statement that
Ministers were not required to issue any instruction, and indeed did not issue any instruction. But, had clear instructions been issued, there would have been no Guptagate
The Minister of Defence and Military Veterans received a request from the Gupta family to use Waterkloof Air Force Base. To her credit Minister turned down the request. But, the Minister then failed to inform the Secretary of Defence and the Chief of the Defence Force of her decision. We have to ask, in what kind of country does a private individual telephone a Minister and request landing rights at a strategic military base. We also have to ask ourselves in what kind of country does a Minister turn down such a request and then not officially communicate the decision to senior officials in her depatment. The Minister, evidently, needs to be reminded that she runs a state department which is responsible for the defence of this country, not a spaza shop. Had the Minister taken action and issued clear instructions, the Jet Airways Airbus would never have landed at Waterkloof Air Force Base, and there would have been no Guptagate scandal.
There is a widely held perception that when the Guptas say, jump, the President says, how high? So, why are we surprised that when the Guptas said, jump, some senior officials said, how high?
We cannot sit back and allow Ministers to get off the hook by hanging out a few rogue officials out to dry. Ministerial heads must roll. That is why we have requested the Public Protector to conduct an independent investigation into Guptagate. We need to know what the President knew, when the President knew it and what he did about it. And, we need to know what Ministers knew, when they knew it and what they did about it. Because, in the end Ministers are responsible and they must be held accountable.
If the Minister was really serious about ensuring that such a situation never happens again, then the final report of the investigation should have read something like this: Name: Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula; Position: Minister of Defence and Military Veterans; Charge: Incompetence; Finding: The Minister was negligent in not communicating her decision, to deny a request from the Gupta family to use Waterkloof Air Force Base; and Recommendation: Fire.
But, in the end, if we really want to ensure that something like this never happens again, then we have to come together in our thousands, we have to come together in our tens of thousands, we have to come together in our millions and together we have to fire President Jacob Zuma on election day in 2014. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA /GC / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 378
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-378] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Mr D J MAYNIER
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, Deputy Speaker, fellow members of the House, on Sunday, the cluster of Security Ministers made an astounding confession to the nation. They told us that the President is not in daily management of the affairs of our nation. They said that they do not know what or direct the daily happenings in this country. In fact, they announced that only appointed staff members, without their direction, are running the affairs of our nation – completely without direction of any one single member of the executive. [Applause.]
They didn't end there. They went further and told us that they do not know anything and are unable to enforce the law. The Immigration Act, Act 13 of 2002 explicitly states that no one may enter into the Republic other than at a port of entry. If any person was to enter anywhere, where it is not an authorised point of entry, then he or she must have a written and signed document from the director-general. That would be a document that would let them into the country.
If not, members of the Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster and their departments should have made sure that they people got arrested. But on Sunday, the cluster of Ministers responsible for these functions, quite bracingly walked before the nation to announce that they know nothing, they are responsible for nothing, and that nobody in the executive, starting with the President, know nothing of what happened. When they were asked who did all of those things; they said that it was some of the appointed staff members - not even a director-general. They said that it was some unknown characters whom we as voters, have never voted for, who exposed the security of the nation to this situation.
Astonishingly, the Minister of Justice asserted that name dropping was solely to blame. This seems to suggest that our country is run by rumour-mongering. [Interjections.] Somebody comes and tells them that this is what was said, and then they act in this way.
This is not the democracy which Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in jail for. [Applause.] It is not the democracy for which so many amongst the ruling party spent years in prison and in exile. This is not the democracy that so many of our people died in order to achieve. For this rumour-mongering ... Imagine an executive of the country saying that it was rumours. These people were following rumours and not the direction of any authorised executive, set out in the Constitution of our nation.
We were supposed to sit there and be grateful for this whitewash, in which we were fed hogwash. [Laughter.] To show further how farcical the situation is, the Times reported today that 48 hours after Justice Minister Jeff Radebe announced that criminal charges were to be pursued against high-ranking officers, the numerous charges have been dropped and the suspensions lifted.
This is an executive that runs this country as if South Africans have chicken memory. You say this today, three days down the line you do something different and expect them to be already forgotten about what you said on Sunday. [Applause.] The contempt with which the people of South Africa are being treated by this executive surpasses that of the contempt in a banana republic.
The barefaced disregard for law and authority, the basic law Constitution, together with other legislations within government, flowing from there, is astonishing, although it is not surprising. It has been happening for so long now. Mostly the voters are lulled into indifference. In fact, these things, including what happened in happened in the Central African Republic, Car, ... [Time Expired.] It is time for the voters to vote them out. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO.../TM END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 379
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-379] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Speaker, hon Ministers, colleagues, since the controversial landing of a plane-load of passengers at one of our country's most secure national key-points, government has taken great pains to publically exonerate the President and his Cabinet from any involvement or culpability.
This had to be done because, in the mind of the public, the Gupta family's personal connection with President Jacob Zuma is somehow tainted with impropriety. Thus, the average South African assumed, whether true or not, that the so-called Guptagate scandal somehow involved the President.
In this debate, the IFP is less interested in what the President did or did not do. We are not looking for evidence that the President involved himself in the granting of permission for the plane to land at Waterkloof Air Force Base. Our concern is whether this is the kind of leadership we want for our country: the kind of leadership under which South Africa limps from scandal to scandal. [Applause.]
Even with all the revelations, investigations and an engagement with the press, this compromising of a national key point has left us with more questions than answers. But one aspect that has emerged quite clearly is that the implicated officials engaged in name-dropping to ensure that the plane landed and the guests were escorted to Sun City. In response there have been calls for name-dropping to become a prosecutable offence.
However, there is another angle to this debate that should not be overlooked. The reality is that the people who used President Zuma's name, and the people who reacted to the use of President Zuma's name, were all operating on the assumption that President Zuma would sanction such a gross violation of national security when it comes to his friends. [Applause.]
This debate should really be about perceptions on the integrity of the President. Because whether or not our President's integrity is compromised, the perception that our President lacks integrity, particularly when that perception emanates from within government structures, speaks of an ailing national leadership.
The IFP knows what leadership should look like. [Interjections.] We understand integrity and the importance of doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing. [Interjections.] We have an unparalleled example in our leader, Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, who often points out that corruption is not an inevitable part of leadership or governance, but an evil that enters where integrity fails.
Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi administered the erstwhile KwaZulu-Natal government for almost 19 years, and never once, was a single allegation of corruption ever levelled against his administration. [Interjections.] That is the kind of leadership that South Africa needs.
When a leader walks uprightly people need have no fear for their reputation. The fact that President Zuma felt the need to avoid his friends' wedding speaks of a leader whose reputation is already compromised. The question we are left with is whether this is the kind of leadership that we want for South Africa.
We are on dangerous ground when our citizens are already asking, who really runs this country? Is it the representatives of all the people, or a handful of puppet-masters pulling the strings? The President's silence on this matter is deafening, as it was on the debacle over the Central African Republic. As the Commander in Chief of our armed forces, let alone the executive head of the country, he should have provided the nation with answers. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr J J MCGLUWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 379
Mr M A MNCWANGO
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Mr Speaker, I have never ever in my entire life seen the ANC so embarrassed like today. [Applause.] Look at the hon members on this side. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, the hon Minister of Home Affairs, Naledi Pando has said much on this matter but she knew that 207 wedding guests would be landing at Waterkloof Air Force Base in a matter of hours. Her voice should be the first to be heard here in Parliament, and correct me if I am wrong; hon Minister, South Africa has an advanced passenger information systems that informs you which plane is coming when, who is sitting where and what is going on.
The Minister must inform Parliament, through the advanced passenger information system, who boarded the flight and what their purpose was for coming here. The advanced passenger processing is an additional layer of security that enables us to perform preclearance on travellers. This system is operational in several countries, including India. All international airlines are required to provide information about passengers and the crew within 15 minutes of taking off of the flight.
Let me list the departments which have access to this system: It is the Home Affairs; the State Security Agency; the SA Revenue Service; and the SA police Services. It is therefore hard to believe that the Minister was not aware of what was about to happen. Home Affairs personnel were ready there and waiting at the Waterkloof to process all the guests. Didn't any one of the department raise the warning flag then?
Our Home Affairs website states that the Waterkloof Air force Base is not an official port of entry. The Immigration Act further states that no one may enter at the said port of entry, unless a letter by the Director-General is issued and a certificate from the Minister of Home Affairs that has the power to exempt an individual.
Minister Radebe indicated at the media briefing on 3 May that the Department of Home Affairs immigration officers process all passengers who landed at Waterkloof. The question remains who summoned Home Affairs to Waterkloof? Who cares – the Minister herself attended the wedding! [Applause.]
Minister Gordhan, what happened to the customs officials? Was there no communication between Home Affairs and SARS that over the 200 people were arriving at the Waterkloof Air Force Base to attend a wedding? Weddings guests bring with them luggage that could contain anything and everything. Gifts have monetary value. How much money did we lose from this little hiccup in your department?
Minister Cwele, what astonished me about you is that the state security in South Africa has become a laughing stock under your leadership. [Applause.] Judgement given by the learned judge in the case of Cheryl Cwele v the state emphasised the need to step up the security where people move in and out of this country. But what did you do? All of this happens right under your nose and you have done absolutely nothing. Which Minister should take the responsibility for this? All of you. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA .. \\\tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 380
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,23 May 2013,"Take 380 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mr J J MC GLUWA
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Speaker, hon Deputy President, and hon members, Comrade Lekota, it is called neocolonialism of a special kind. One would have expected government to furnish us with a copy of the report in order to enhance this debate.
However, we are not surprised by this because here we are dealing with a government that took a dubious decision to investigate itself. This must have been the easiest investigation for government to conduct, considering the close proximity of the Guptas to the Cabinet and the directors-general. This generally corrupt relationship between the Cabinet and the Guptas has allowed the Guptas to use state-owned enterprises as their cash cow in their controversial free-of-charge breakfast shows with the national broadcaster.
Mr Speaker, it is a blatant lie to assert that the Gupta planes did not obtain authorisation to land at Air Force Base Waterkloof. Without authorisation, none of these planes would have entered our airspace. The fact that they obtained authorisation proves beyond reasonable doubt that the Guptas have been getting away with using Waterkloof as their parking bay each time they host important visitors from abroad. They just happened to be caught red-handed this time around. [Interjections.]
There are a lot of things that do not add up about government's Guptagate report. Firstly, if the Waterkloof base is not a national key point, why waste our time by lining up and parading Ministers from the security cluster to address the nation on the matter? The SA Revenue Service, Sars, complained that it was not informed about this matter, whilst other departments such as Home Affairs confirmed that they were informed in advance. This led to a situation where some of the gifts the visitors brought to them were not declared when they entered the country. I am aware that many of these gifts were given to current and former Cabinet Ministers. [Interjections.] In the interest of good governance, should they not return the gifts?
In conclusion, given the fact that the planes did not obtain authorisation, how and by whom were these planes refuelled? The only deduction that one can make from this fiasco is that the mere mention of the Gupta name is enough to send the entire Cabinet into a tailspin. In addition to the inconsistencies I have mentioned above, if the Air Force Base Waterkloof is not a national key point, why have the senior officials who allegedly authorised the landing been suspended? In light of the fact that these officials should get the powers to authorise ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 380
Mr B H HOLOMISA
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, ek wil begin deur vir die ANC te sê dat hierdie hele Gupta-aangeleentheid nie net 'n verleentheid vir die ANC is nie; dis 'n verleentheid vir elke Suid-Afrikaanse burger.
Agb Minister, as u sê die verslag sê dat nie een Minister geweet het van die landing van die Guptas nie, sê die verslag eintlik dat hierdie vyf Ministers wie se departemente betrokke was 'n sekerheidsbreuk veroorsaak het in Suid-Afrika en dat hulle aanspreeklik en verantwoordelik is. Dit beteken dat vyf Ministers van Suid-Afrika nie genoegsame prosedures in plek het om te verseker dat 'n sekerheidsbreuk nie plaasvind nie. Dit lyk vir my Suid-Afrika het bewustelose Ministers, agb Minister. Dit is tyd dat daar objektief wakkergeskrik word.
Dan wil ek vir u vra: Dink u regtig dat 'n direkteur-generaal wat deur 'n Minister aangestel word en wat dan die ondersoek doen, sal verklaar dat sy of haar Minister eintlik betrokke was en van hierdie ding geweet het? [Tussenwerpsels.] U is naïef as u dink die mense van Suid-Afrika moet dit glo. U sê dat u sekerheid wil hê. Ek wil vir die agb Minister – en al die ander Ministers – sê dat as hulle sekerheid oor hierdie aangeleentheid wil hê, hulle 'n regterlike kommissie van ondersoek moet aanstel wat objektief kan kyk of Ministers daarvoor aanspreeklik gehou kan word of nie. Ek is oortuig hulle sal.
Ek wil 'n ander aspek aanraak. Dit is die aspek van vriendskappe met mense en groepe wat geld het in Suid-Afrika. Almal weet die Guptas het baie geld. Inteendeel, die Guptas kom na Suid-Afrika toe na die hele debakel en sê dat Suid-Afrika moet bly wees dat hulle mense na Suid-Afrika gebring het. Hoe arrogant kan jy wees? Wie is die Guptas om met soveel geld te kan kry wat hulle wil hê wanneer hulle wil en soos hulle wil? Ek wil vir u sê dat u vuil is. Die ANC en die President bevuil homself om met sulke mense bevriend te wees, want hulle is misdadigers. Hulle koop mense om. Dit is niks anders as bedrog wat hulle gebruik om toegang te verkry nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Dan wil ek sê dat die DA nie skoon is nie. Hulle hande is ook vuil. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil vandag vir u sê as die leier, Me Helen Zille, sê sy gaan eet by Saxonwold die beste kos wat sy nog ooit geëet het, maar sy weet nie sy kry geld van die Guptas nie, is u hande nie skoon nie. U moet kyk daarna. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Ek wil terugkom na u, dames en here. Mnr die Speaker, ek wil vir die ANC – en ek het 'n boodskap vir die President van Suid-Afrika – sê: Leer uit die verlede. Jackie Selebi het gesê dat die bedrieër en dwelmbaas Glenn Agliotti sy vriend is, "finish en klaar." Ek wil vir die ANC sê, sê vir die President as hy gaan voortgaan met sy vriendskap met die Guptas, hy "finish en klaar" is. Ek dank u. [Applous.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 380
Mnr P J GROENEWALD
English:
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, Minister Radebe reiterated again this afternoon that President Jacob Zuma and his Cabinet were not involved in the landing of flight JAI 9900 at the military base. This contradicts claims by the Gupta family spokesperson that was adamant that permission to land the private jet at the Air Force Base Waterkloof was given by the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, beforehand.
If Cabinet Ministers were not involved in authorising the landing of the Gupta jet at the military airport, we want to know who authorised the deployment of the 194 government personnel and the 88 government vehicles that offered convoy protection from the military base. Why would such personnel and vehicles be authorised to offer protection to people who were not authorised to land at Air Force Base Waterkloof in the first place? We further wish to know why arrangements for immigration and customs officials to be present at the airport were not made. No-one knows what may have been brought into the country as a result of such negligence.
Because of these contradictions, the ACDP has further questions that need to be answered. We want to know why blame for this embarrassing saga of a lack in security is placed mainly on two officials: Chief of State Protocol Ambassador Koloane and the officer in charge of movement control at Air Force Base Waterkloof Lt Col Anderson, who, we are told, does not have executive authority for landing clearances or flight plans. She could not have given permission. We want to know further why Ambassador Koloane is accused of granting permission illegally, when the Gupta family spokesperson is adamant that permission to land the aircraft was granted by the SANDF. Are the Guptas lying, or is the report full of blatant lies?
If indeed the Gupta family approached Airports Company South Africa, Acsa, as we have been told, to request landing rights which were refused, and then approached the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans and her advisors for permission, which was again refused, and again resorted to the use of the diplomatic channels, we want to know why the Gupta family then is not investigated or charged for bringing government departments into disrepute? Was the favour of using the military airport done for them free of charge, or were there any payments made for such favours? We want to know. We further want to know whether we are expected to believe that it was Ambassador Koloane who gave flight JAI 9900 the right to land, knowing that the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans has allegedly refused to give permission. Or didn't he know? If he didn't know, why did the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans not communicate her refusal to grant permission for landing rights for this aircraft in question? Why would Ambassador Koloane risk his career and future by overruling the Minister's decision? Could he have done it without some form of compensation?
There are too many contradictions and improbabilities in this scandal that make it impossible for the ACDP to believe. The ACDP therefore calls for an independent commission of inquiry to get to the bottom of what really happened and to confirm whether the accused and suspended officials indeed acted on their own and that without the knowledge or approval of any Cabinet Minister? Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK /Mia / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 381
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-381] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Rev K R J MESHOE
Ms A VAN WYK: Hon Speaker, South Africa is a sovereign and democratic state. We have a territory with internationally recognised boundaries. We enjoy international recognition and have a democratically elected government exercising its power over our country's territory. [Interjections.] It was therefore not a surprise that the nation responded in anger when it was found that the guests for a wedding of a private individual had landed at a military installation on the morning of 30 April 2013.
An HON MEMBER: Who is accountable?
Ms A VAN WYK: This anger was justified and our people demanded answers. [Interjections.] The ANC, through our secretary-general, Comrade Gwede Mantashe, issued a statement later the same day expressing our shared concern.
An HON MEMBER: Who is accountable?
The SPEAKER: Order, hon member!
Ms A VAN WYK: I quote from that statement;
The ANC waited patiently for the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, the body delegated with authority over the Waterkloof Airforce Base, to explain to the nation how these private individuals managed to land an aircraft at Waterkloof. [Interjections.] Up until now, no explanation has been forthcoming. The ANC, driven by the concern for the safety and sovereignty of South Africa, shall never allow a situation where our ports of entry and National Key Points are penetrated with impunity. [Interjections.]
We, the ANC, demand that those who are responsible for granting access to land the aircraft in our country also explain the basis upon which such permission was granted ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms A VAN WYK: ... particularly to land at Waterkloof Airforce Base. Those who cannot account must be brought to book.
An HON MEMBER: The Minister!
Ms A VAN WYK: The ANC will never rest where there is any indication that all and sundry may be permitted to undermine the Republic ... [Interjections.] ... its citizens and its borders. ...
Did you enjoy the curry?
An HON MEMBER: Fire the Minister! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms A VAN WYK: ... We again make the call, even at this late hour, to the SANDF to explain how this private aircraft landed at Waterkloof Airforce Base, our National Key Point. I end the quote.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon member asked, did you enjoy the curry. I would like to know who she directed the question to. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Ms A VAN WYK: Your leader! [Interjections.] The alliance partners, the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, and the SA Communist Party, SACP, also issued statements demanding answers and expressing their concern. Cosatu called for an urgent investigation into who had authorised the landing, and called for them to be disciplined. In its statement, the SACP called on government to investigate how it had happened and for those responsible to be brought to book. [Interjections.]
On 2 May 2013, the Ministers of Justice, crime prevention and the security cluster, instructed a team of directors-general, DGs, to investigate the matter, giving them seven working days to complete the investigation. In doing this, the Ministers communicated that the buck stops with them. [Interjections.] They demanded answers and action. It is also important to note that at this point, the Minister of Transport, hon Martins, and the Minister of Defence, hon Mapisa Nquakula, had said no to the exclusive use of OR Tambo International Airport, and no to the use of Waterkloof Airforce Base. [Interjections.] At that point the executive had already fulfilled its responsibilities.
Even before the findings of the report were communicated, it was rubbished by the Opposition and the detractors of government. The Opposition participates in this Parliament. Well, at least they collect their cheques every month, and by that I gather that they accept that this government is a legitimate, democratically elected government. [Applause.] Yet, they will leave no stone unturned to illegitimise government and taint the image of South Africa, no matter the consequences. [Interjections.] Why are we surprised? Why are we surprised?
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms A VAN WYK: It is the same Opposition whose Mayor in the City of Cape Town, said that the people of Khayelitsha prefer bucket toilets. [Interjections.] The fact that government reacted immediately and decisively is an indication of a maturing democracy.
An NON MEMBER: Fire the Minister!
Ms A VAN WYK: There was no effort to sweep the incident under the carpet. {Applause.] We welcomed the criminal cases that were already opened and encourage the various departments that as they finalise their investigations, to open more cases if they find that there are more people who should answer to the laws of our country.
As parliamentarians, we need to take cognisance of the weaknesses within the system that were identified through this report. [Interjections.] We should engage with the relevant departments and the members of the executive, to report on how they have corrected those weaknesses in the system, in order to prevent the reoccurrence of such an incident. [Applause.]
The use of Metro police officers by a private-security company again highlights the need for a single police service ... [Interjections.] ... in the country, as the ANC has voiced over a period of time. [Applause.] The behaviour of the private-security company emphasises and demonstrates the need for stronger and more effective regulating of the private-security industry. [Interjections.]
There is a need and a responsibility on us to put measures in place that will ensure that individuals in the public service cannot manipulate the system, and collude in the way that we have seen it happening here. [Interjections.] Society should engage itself with the abuse of power, and confront and address that which we see throughout our daily lives by those with money, who believe that they can bend the rules or that rules do not apply to them. [Interjections.] It embodies itself in various forms within society. [Interjections.] Look at our roads and see how many vehicles are being driven without number plates and speeding recklessly. It is not your average vehicles, but top of the range luxury vehicles. [Interjections.] These people act with impunity and they believe that the same rules do not apply to them.
An HON MEMBER: Who is responsible?
Ms A VAN WYK: This culture aids and abets corruption ... Well, I stay in the Western Cape, so I guess it's the Western Cape government ... We need to deal with it where and when it happens. We also need to remind ourselves of what Chapter 10 of our Constitution says about the basic values and principles that must govern our public administration and service. As a country, the executive and Parliament, this is what we should demand from our public administration at all levels. [Interjections.] This is how we expect their leadership to behave and to lead. We must demand public servants with a high standard of professional ethics, who provide service impartially, fairly, equitably, without bias and who are accountable to the people, the executive and Parliament. [Interjections.]
We welcome Minister Radebe's announcement that the report was given to the Public Protector. Once the Public Protector comes to the same finding as the DGs, I will personally request the Chief Whip of the Majority Party to ask for a debate, to provide the Opposition with an opportunity to apologise to the President, the executive, the ANC and the people of South Africa. [Interjections.]
We have clearly seen, demonstrated by speakers before me, what this debate is actually about. Hon Maynier indicated that it's about election fever. Hon Lekota demonstrated rumour-mongering, because he quotes newspapers concerning the report. Let's be honest, it is a general hatred of the President. [Interjections.] I wonder how much the hon Lekota actually knows about constitutions, since he cannot follow his own party's constitution ... [Applause.] ... and a court has to tell him to reinstate the hon Ndude. The hon Holomisa must sometimes listen when people speak. The report was released prior to this debate. [Interjections.] The ANC argued that the debate ... The Minister announced it ...
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms A VAN WYK: The ANC argued that the debate should take place after the release of the report. Your political partners could not wait. Choose your partners wisely. [Interjections.] We accept that the Opposition is suffering ... [Interjections.] ... from a serious case of election fever and government envy. [Interjections.] There is nothing that can be done about it. [Interjections.] I want to say to the millions of South Africans out there, again in the words of the secretary-general of the ANC;
The ANC is not for sale. [Applause.] Our country is not for sale ... [Applause.] ... not to big business nor to any other country's interests. [Interjections.] As a collective leadership ...
Dr C P Mulder: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon speaker at the podium indicated that the report of the Minister had been released. I would like to enquire if that report has been tabled in the House or not. [Interjections.]
Ms A VAN WYK: You can ask the Speaker, but not in my time.
Dr C P MULDER: I am asking the Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. I will look at that and come back to the House. Continue, hon member.
An HON MEMBER: You are misleading the House!
Ms A VAN WYK: Our country is not for sale, not to big business nor to any other country's interests. [Interjections.] As a collective leadership in the ANC – but you need to understand the culture of the ANC – we will guard over our hard-won freedom, our sovereignty and our standing in the international community. I thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Once the Speaker's office receives the report it will be tabled in Parliament. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! It's difficult to listen when your mouths are open! I mean really! [Laughter.] I invite hon Mfundisi to the podium.
Mr I S MFUNDISI / TH / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 382
The SPEAKER
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Speaker and hon members, it is very strange that the Waterkloof Airforce Base...
Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes sir.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Excuse me sir. Did you say that when the report is being tabled? Did you say that? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Sir, please take your seat. I will repeat what I said earlier on. For now please take your seat. Hon Mfundisi, please continue.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: It is very strange that the Waterkloof Airforce Base could be trivialised and dismissed as a simple party committee meeting while the home of an individual is ascribed a status of a national key point with a fortune in public funds being spent thereon. The day will come when these parliamentary precincts will be devoid of their national key point status.
The ANC government has consistently taken exception when opposition Members of Parliament point out their shortcomings in governance but ceded their political and executive responsibilities to government officials. If it was not so, there is no way that Ministers of the affected departments could be absolved from the Gupta plane debacle while officials are made to carry the can. This is as good as saying that those officials are in charge and there are no Ministers.
In real democracies when an event like this occurs, Ministers would resign or be fired by the President because they lowered their gut where and when it mattered most. In a real democracy, the President himself would have quit and not pleaded with the public not to conflate relations between this country and India because a plane landed at a particular airbase. It is up to Parliament to deal with him as they elected him.
When in the year 2003 Bulelani Ngcuka, the then director of Public Prosecutions said that, "Zuma was in trouble because he had surrounded himself with Indians." This sounded like a far fetched and xenophobic statement but now look at what is happening to the country because of that type of association. We note that three securocrats: Njenje, Maqethuka and Mo Shaik lost their jobs because they were concerned about the activities of the Guptas.
The buck stops with the President and his executive. There is no way that they can pass the buck. Besides, no one in their wildest dream will think that directors-general would and could lay fault at the doors of the President or Ministers without them risking being charged with misconduct in terms of the Public Service Act. Only an independent institution can dig out the truth and make sense in this rigmarole.
Political accountability has been consigned to the dustbin of expediency and sacrificed on the altar of supposed friendship. The Guptas did what they did in sheer impunity to illustrate to their compatriots the muscle they have over the leaders of this country. After all there has been no rebutting to the assertion that some Ministers learned of their appointment to Cabinet from the Guptas before the President could tell them.
While someone may believe that none of the members of Cabinet knew of the plane landing at this particular airport, a thousand would not believe. The report so presented must be rejected with the contempt it deserves. In conclusion, I plead with President Zuma and his government to heed the following words, I quote, "beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L M MPHAHLELE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 382
Mr I S MFUNDISI
Mr L M MPHAHLELE: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the recent landing of a private jet at the Waterkloof Airforce Base ripped off the mask of safety and security which we wear as a nation. Today the whole world knows that we are as secured as a lamb in the wolves' den. The source of insecurity, however, is not the wolves but the truant shepherds who fail to do their duty of protecting the flock.
Azania is at the receiving end of a toxic mixture of guptocracy and ineptocracy, the latter advertises itself as a democracy. Our national security is in danger if the state processes can be so easily manipulated by the notorious Gupta name-droppers. Next time, our enemies will first drop names and later drop lethal bombs. If at all the Indian airliner carrying wedding guests was not properly cleared, it should have been impounded. This is a standard international practice. However, one does not expect this practice to be implemented by a republic gone bananas.
There are profound lessons to be learned from the Waterkloof saga. Firstly, the Gupta family's influence on the powers that be has a corrosive effect on how South Africa is governed. The outcry of one Minister is still green in our collective memory. He publicly complained that he was told by Mr Gupta about his appointment as a Minister, long before the President of the Republic informed him. [Interjections.] If we want to restore our reputation as a self-respecting nation, we must place state affairs beyond the reach of the Gupta's corrupting influence.
Secondly, the Gupta factor goes straight to the core of our political morality of absence of it. If we are serious in curtailing the bad influence of money on politics, all politicians and political parties must be obliged by law to reveal the source of their funding. It does not help much to damn and condemn the Guptas in broad daylight and thereafter tiptoe to their house after sunset. I am convinced that some political parties are receiving money stained with blood and cocaine.
Finally, President Zuma will do this nation a great service by saying four words: not in my name. This will clear the air and most importantly serve as a powerful deterrent to prospective name-droppers. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr R B BHOOLA / JN / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 383
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-383] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Mr MPHAHLELE
Mr R B BHOOLA: Mr Speaker, India and South Africa's relationship is a long and powerful one. Communication and information management systems' conduct of getting involved is totally unacceptable and must be dealt with. Government has responded strongly, decisively and correctly. [Interjections.]
I don't think we must pass judgment. [Interjections.] Name-dropping... people do it all the time! You cannot just jump to conclusions! [Interjections.] The MF rejects any attempt to stereotype this kind of thing. This is wrong behaviour by individuals that exists in all kinds of communities and they must be dealt with accordingly.
The DA is so stuck in a mindset. Not a shred of evidence, yet you can't accept the decision. The President must have had something to do with this! What kind of nonsense is this? [Interjections.] It seems that the DA is pathetic in their desperate attempts. Really, does it mean that, if it starts snowing in eThekwini, Durban, today, it becomes the President's fault?
All over the world there is this kind of attempt to garner influence, to try to say you have contacts. People must not be hypocritical. Why political parties... [Interjection.]
Mr J J MC GLUWA: Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon Rajbansi was very angry about what had happened. This is not about Indians. It is about this country. So I don't know what the hon member is speaking about.
THE SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon member. That is not a point of order. Continue, sir.
Mr R B BHOOLA: The ID is lost and found.
People must not be hypocritical. Why have political parties not denied taking money from the Guptas and how much? Politicians have also gone to the Guptas' residence and had dinner, I believe. Well, that's the nature of business. People all over the world try to develop contacts.
The DA leader also went there and had dinner. And do you know what? She had a delicious meal, she said. That does not mean anything. Parties raise money and parties do things to raise money. That does not automatically mean something is happening.
If there is evidence, that is another matter. No-one ever suggested that the President picked up the phone, took a telephone call, or whispered to somebody. There is not a shred of evidence of that. This matter must be dealt with according to its merits and the merits are that this kind of conduct is unacceptable and must be dealt with.
There are political parties that are here seated who made worse utterances about the hon President's name, but they are exonerated. Yes, quite interestingly to note, that will never come to Parliament for debate.
The MF supports the view of Gwede Mantashe that the President's personal relations with any persons outside of Parliament are not for consumption in Parliament. That must be respected. [Applause.]
There has been far greater abuse of state power during the apartheid era by white supremacists that really put the peace, security, stability and lives of our people in the intensive care unit.
Mahatma Ghandi once said he will leave the windows of his home open for the breeze of all different cultures and religions to flow through, but he will never be blown off his feet.
No form of negativity can bring a good man down. The fact is that the President did not exercise undue power. [Interjections.] True leaders are those who add value to... [Interjection.] Can the DA sit down, please!
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Speaker, I would like to know if the hon Bhoola would like to take a question about Rajbansi serving in P W Botha's Cabinet.
THE SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. Please take your seat.
Mr R B BHOOLA: True leaders are those who add value to society and, undoubtedly, President Zuma will never let South Africa down. [Applause.]
Mr K J DIKOBO / nvs / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 385
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-385] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Mr R B BHOOLA
Mr K J DIKOBO: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, the landing of the "heliGupta" at the Waterkloof Airbase, represents a violation of our country's sovereignty. Had South Africa been a woman, Azapo would be saying that South Africa had been raped. [Interjections.]
The question that needs to be asked is whether the Guptas would have landed at an air force base in their own country or an air force base of any country. The answer is a definite, no.
Why have the Guptas become so important in South Africa. They telephone numbers of Ministers. We hear that they are able to summon Ministers and officials to their compound.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, there's a point of order. Yes, hon member.
Mrs M T KUBAYI: Hon Speaker, rise on a point of order. My point of order pertains to Rule 63, which deals language. I find it very offensive for the hon member to use the word "rape" as an example in the debate, especially taking into consideration the seriousness of rape within the country ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order! Continue, Ma'm
Mrs M T KUBAYI: I'm saying, I regard it a serious concern, especially in light of the rise of rape within South African women. And I would like you to make a ruling on the issue. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, order, hon members, order! Hon members, please mind your language, especially when you are at the podium. But mind your language in the Chamber also!
Mr K J DIKOBO: How do we expect South Africans to believe that the
Defence Minister is the only person in her department who knew hat permission for the "heliGupta" to land at the Waterkloof Air Base had been denied?
We now a have a peculiar situation where officials have overruled a
Ministerial decision. There is a Sepedi proverb which says ...
Sepedi:
... tšhwene ge e re: Hoom! e botile lewa.
English:
The Guptas knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they went
on to do it. They knew that nothing would happen to them, and they were right.
The officials did what they did because they were doing a favour to
the President's friends. They were humouring the President.
Alternatively, they did so fearing the consequences, should they
have disappointed the Guptas.
Ambassador Kholoane had possibly heard of reports of what happened
to James Maseko, when he refused to redirect government's adverts to
The New Age. He lost his job, and he still unemployed.
[Interjections.]
Every South African should be angry about what had happened at the
Waterkloof Air Base. Our country has been undermined. Hon Minister
Radebe and indeed the whole executive should be angry.
The ruling party should be concerned about how individuals seem to
have influence over the executive.
Indeed, here we are wasting our precious time, talking about a family wedding of a non-national. [Laughter.]
Our country has been mortgaged, and it is a disgrace. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 385
Mr K J DIKOBO
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Speaker, a wedding of that magnitude at Sun City was not tasked together overnight; every aspect of it was meticulously planned like a military operation - from the flying-in of the 200+ guests to the VIP blue light cavalcade to the venue, along with the President and his relatives who partnered with the Guptas in business ventures, with the invitations to many Cabinet members, some attended, but most wisely developed "Guptaitis", a flu-like symptom brought on by media heat.
The claim that Members of the Cabinet didn't know is as flimsy and see-through as a bridal veil. In fact, the report is so transparent – it's invisible. It simply doesn't ring through, especially if the claim is made by a raft of hand-picked directors-general, DGs. If it were true, it would mean that, for example, the Minister of Police and his R2,7 billion Crime Intelligence Unit, knew nothing about the foreign plane landing at a SA National Defence Force Base carrying unknown passengers, not on an official business or for an official government event and with the VIP cavalcade transporting said passengers and unknown crates.
They could have been an entire terrorist contingent taking over the country. Ask the SA Revenue Services, Sars, that sat at home like Cinderella, unable to peak into the huge crates that were VIPd to the wedding.
The SANDF spokesperson called Waterkloof a national key point, and no one challenged him because the Minister of Police won't release the list. Of course, we already know about Parliament, the airport, harbours, nuclear power stations, and the private home in Nkandla.
Dogging and a stampede by Cabinet Members to distance themselves from this debacle – most of whom are absent from this debate today – the Minister of Police said he new nothing of an operation of this magnitude. Charges were laid, but we hear today that those cases are falling apart against the 194 SA Police Services, the SAPS, members, Metro and the VIP Unit members, 20 Flying Squad members, 40 counter-assault members with armed and special surveillance vehicles, and the 296 private security members. All role-players met in advance to identify their respective role. Minutes are kept at these meetings, and an operational plan drawn up accordingly. I trust that those minutes were conveniently as confetti.
Fair enough, we accept deniability from the Minister of State Security, as he's the man who did not notice that his wife was a drug lord. And we didn't expect to read a word about it in the Guptas The New Age newspaper, but from the Minister of Police as the man on the guest list, bring on the scapegoats. They are trying everyone - the Head of Protocol, the Air Force Colonel, the Police, everyone acted alone without permission from a single identifiable source.
It was confirmed for me by a senior ANC member that for every conceivable regulation in the book, to be flouted, in the manner it was, it would have had to be an instruction from the very top. After that, all other Ministries and officials simply fell into line. Now that, I believe, police obey orders; when they are told to jump, they ask how high.
And today we are branded as a nation that elected an entire Cabinet of empty suites.
The Auditor-General has agreed to my request to uncover how much this debacle has cost us in terms of reputation, as a sort of banana republic abuse of public money that would lead us to being down-graded yet again just as our reputation has been down-graded in the eyes of the rest of the world. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, can I please just ask you to make a ruling.
The SPEAKER: What point are you rising on Ma'm?
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, I'm rising on the fact that hon Van Wyk misled this House about the report that has been submitted to Parliament. I want to place it on record that neither the office of Mr Xaso nor your office has received a report. And I believe that is misrepresentation to Parliament. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr J H JEFFREY: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat, that's not a point of order. Order, order, hon members! Take your seat, hon member. What point of order are you rising on?
Mr J H JEFFREY: Hon Speaker, it's the hon Kilian who is misleading. It was never said that the report was tabled in Parliament. It was said that the report was released. There's a difference, which the hon Kilian doesn't seem to understand. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order! Maybe at this point, let me reiterate and state what I said earlier; I'm quoting myself here... [Laughter.] and that is, when the report would be received by the Office of the Speaker, it will be tabled. I repeat that I said that and I'm repeating it again. I really don't want us to go back to that issue. When the report would be released to the Office of the Speaker, my office, it will be tabled in Parliament as it has been the case with previous reports. [Interjections.]
Take your seat hon member. What point are you rising on? Minister, proceed.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS / ARM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 386
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2013,"[Take-386] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][mm].doc"
Mr J H JEFFERY
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Order! Hon members, perhaps at this point allow me to reiterate and state what I said earlier. I am quoting myself here. [Laughter.] That is, when the report is received by the Office of the Speaker, it will be tabled. I repeat that. I said it and I am repeating it again. I really do not want us to go back to that. When the report is released to the Office of the Speaker – my Office – it will be tabled in Parliament, as has been the case with previous reports. [Interjections.] Take your seat, hon member. Minister, proceed.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Speaker, I, as a speaker of English, was going to correct the hon member and indicate that the hon Van Wyk said the report has been made public. She did not mention Parliament. The p-word was "public", and so, I think she misunderstood. [Laughter.]
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. Is it on this point or on another point? What point are you rising on?
Dr C P MULDER: I am not rising on a point of order, hon Speaker, but it deals with this point: In terms of the Rules, I would enquire from the Minister, on this specific point, whether she is prepared to answer a question.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: No, I am not! You are wasting ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. Continue, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Please, take your seat. I am sure, Speaker, he is not the last of those who will stand up, because those who speak the truth are always feared, and here is the truth. [Interjections.] Here is the truth!
All that this debate has been called for is to allow the loud opposition to attack the ANC and the President. They do not want the truth. They will not listen to the truth. They will not allow speakers of the majority party to talk. [Interjections.] All they will do while we speak is shout, carp and insult because they are afraid of the truth. [Interjections.] They are afraid of it because it does not suit their intention. They do not even want the public to hear what we are saying, so they will scream, they will shout. They have no interest in the truth, and eventually, the public will come to know who the opposition is, what they are, and what they are really interested in – and it is definitely not the truth.
Everybody knows in this House that the hon Maynier has been on a fishing expedition since he joined this House, and as the election approaches, he is desperately desperate to catch a big fish before the elections, because he has failed to do so up to now. [Interjections.]
We all know that the hon Lekota has been angry since 2007. [Interjections.] [Applause.] He did not enjoy the weather in Polokwane, and he spends so much time in court that he has lost touch with reality. [Laughter.] [Applause.] He knows full well, and in their opposition caucuses he would have been able to tell his opposition colleagues, since they are now one, led by the DA, as he has now accepted, strangely ... [Laughter.] ... he would have been able to tell them that the Waterkloof Air Force Base is, in fact, a declared international port of entry. He would have been able to tell them ... [Interjections.] ... yes! I told you, hon members, the minute the truth comes out, they cannot take it. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
He would have been able to tell them that the Waterkloof Air Force Base is a strategic military base under the Defence Act. It is not a National Key Point under the Police Act, but because he spends his time in court and not in caucus educating his opposition friends, he could not share those truths with them. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We all know that, in fact, this gentleman leads nothing. We know he is not a President, we know he sacks MPs, he readmits MPs, and he just continues to be an angry person. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Now, Minister Radebe has provided the House and the public with a report on the findings of the investigation into the landing of a commercial aircraft at a military air force base in April this year. It is clear from the report the Minister has provided, as well as the various media statements he has released, that this landing fell outside established norms for the use of the Waterkloof Air Force Base. It is clear rules were broken and positions of authority were breached.
We will consider the recommendations of the report and the proposed interventions. One of the startling findings of the report is the abuse of position and trust by senior officials in government. [Interjections.] All in this House have agreed previously that one of the objectives South Africa should pursue vigorously is creating a capable, development-oriented public servant. The National Development Plan, NDP, suggests that this public servant will be one fully able to execute her job, committed to working in the interest of the people of South Africa, patriotic, ethical and reflective of the principles and values of our Constitution. [Interjections.]
A democracy in formation, such as our own, relies heavily on success and support that can result from high-calibre public values of the kind described in the NDP. These would be teachers committed to quality education and youth development; doctors who uphold the full meaning of the Hippocratic Oath; nurses who serve to heal; and local government workers who are honest, hard-working and results-oriented. [Interjections.]
These qualities are vital for what we term service delivery, but they are even more critical for advancing and protecting the national interests of our nation in the continental and global spheres. No country can thrive if it has senior public servants ready to sell their country to the highest bidder. [Interjections.] This is true, whatever the effects of such disloyalty. In this case, our strategic military air base was infringed through misrepresentation and the brazen abuse of authority. [Interjections.] As Minister Radebe has said, we must be grateful that the majority of our public servants are hard at work doing what should be done. The minority of bad apples should not cause us to tarnish all of them.
Our success in the past 19 years has been firmly supported by thousands of good public servants who ensured hundreds of schools were built, millions of homes electrified, millions provided with water services, and many other positive changes. [Interjections.] When some public servants behave in an errant fashion, we should not forget these thousands. We should not find everyone guilty in our rush to pursue our narrow political agenda. It is especially important that we, as Members of Parliament, take the lead in assisting our new nation to understand due process, to appreciate the value of proper investigation, and to come to an appreciation of the importance of reaching conclusions on the basis of facts and not on speculation, not on the hatred of certain politicians, or on the narrow pursuit of votes by any means necessary.
All that we, as the ANC, can see is that the opposition is consumed by their hatred of President Zuma, and they are unable to look at an issue objectively and rationally if it involves an opportunity to throw stones at our President. It is tragic that Members of Parliament, who have the unique opportunity to build a new, rules-based society, generally fail to rise above their political interests and tend to be so ready to pronounce guilt that, where it does not exist, they are actually heartily, heartily sore, and they just want this guilt due to their deep-seated desire to besmirch the reputation of the ANC and its leadership.
There is no one in the ANC who has suggested that the landing of this commercial aircraft was correct. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: You knew!
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The secretary general raised the alarm. The President raised concerns. The alliance leadership raised concerns. [Interjections.] The executive ensured a senior-level investigation ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, order!
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: ... and kept the public informed. [Interjections.] I am absolutely not surprised. What we have seen ...
Mr B M BHANGA: Speaker, Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: What point are you rising on, sir? [Interjections.]
Mr B M BHANGA: Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, I can hear you. What point are you rising on, hon member? [Interjections.]
Mr B M BHANGA: Speaker, I want to check ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: There is no Rule for checking.
The SPEAKER: What point are you rising on, sir?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: He should sit down. [Interjections.]
Mr B M BHANGA: On a point of order, Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: On a point of what?
Mr B M BHANGA: What happened to the truthful Naledi Pandor? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Just take your seat, sir. Please. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Speaker, the hon member did not refer to me in the way that he often insists other members should be referred to ... [Interjections.] ... and I would ask that the Speaker asks him to do so.
The SPEAKER: Yes, sir.
An HON MEMBER: You knew!
Mr B M BHANGA: What happened to the honourable, truthful Naledi Pandor? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: That is not a point of anything!
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The honourable, truthful Naledi Pandor stands right here before you and she causes you to stand on a point of order because in your entire physical make-up, you are unable to accept or see the truth. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot insinuate that an hon member is untruthful. It is not parliamentary. [Interjections.] Hon Minister Naledi, proceed.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Speaker. As we say, sticks and stones ...
The opposition has claimed the report and the investigation are a cover-up. This is their normal response to a truth they do not like. Their deep-seated disdain for the ANC means whether or not a report is accurate and complete with all the facts, if it does not implicate President Zuma and the majority party, they will not accept it. [Applause.]
It is sad that the opposition is sullying the positive contribution of the Public Protector and other Chapter 9 institutions by attempting to make the Public Protector a detective-inspector of the DA, rather than an institution promoting democracy. [Interjections.] Whenever the DA does not like an issue or an outcome, even if it be true, they rush to the Public Protector, and all they are doing is harming the reputation of this vital and important democratic institution. [Applause.] They cannot claim in this House that their constant approaches to ...
Mrs S V KALYAN: Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I submit that the hon Minister is maligning the Office of the Public Protector. [Interjections.] It is a Chapter 9 institution, and I ask that you ask her to withdraw her remarks.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I submit, hon Speaker, that the hon member and her party are maligning the Office of the Public Protector, and I ask her and her party to desist, from today.
The SPEAKER: I will look at the Hansard and come back with a ruling on this matter. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: That would be my submission, and Speaker, you will find I am absolutely correct. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: It is sad, hon Speaker, that this party that was elected following our democracy, this party here that claims it fought apartheid, when it was formed after apartheid was gone, is unable to accept the truth. [Interjections.] It is unable to accept that officials actually breached their authority and granted landing rights when they should not have done so. This party is unable to accept that no Minister did anything wrong! [Interjections.] They have failed to do so. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Where were you? Where were you?
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please behave yourself in the House! Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The debate, sadly, is on the subject introduced by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. The debate is not on me.
An HON MEMBER: You should resign! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: You, hon member, can certainly take a decision and you are free to resign, but you will never fool the South African public into believing that your interests are in the interests of our country or in the interests of a service-oriented Public Service. Your pure interest is to peddle your hatred for President Jacob Zuma and your hatred for the ANC. You will never succeed in convincing our people that you deserve to enjoy any position of leadership in our country! [Applause.]
We have investigated the matter. There is a report. [Interjections.] The report is now public. [Interjections.] Those who wish to read it will read it. They will consider it and they will see that the Directors-General Task Team did an excellent job and have reported, and that there are officials who went well beyond their authorised positions, who have embarrassed our country. They will also find, however, that our President did nothing that could be considered wrong. [Interjections.] Thus, they will be disappointed. They will continue to believe the report is not true, because if the report does not find Zuma guilty, they are unable to accept it. [Applause.] [Interjections.] That is the kind of opposition we have in our Parliament. Thank you.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to say, "If Zuma ..."? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: What point are you rising on, sir?
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Speaker, I am asking if it is parliamentary for an hon Minister to say, "If Zuma ..."? [Interjections.] She must address the President as "the hon President". [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Speaker, all I can call that is the manner in which Orlando Pirates felt when they were in the Free State a few weeks ago. That is what the hon member of the ID is illustrating: defeat! Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs M T KUBAYI: Hon Speaker, may I address you? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Please do.
Mrs M T KUBAYI: I want to raise ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Let the speaker be heard.
Mrs M T KUBAYI: Hon Speaker, I did not want to interrupt the hon Minister while she was speaking. However, I would like to raise the point that was raised by the hon Bhanga. Now, I know you made a ruling, but in terms of the Rules, the hon Bhanga needs to withdraw his statement, and I would like to request that you allow him to withdraw, because he has cast aspersions on the hon Naledi Pandor.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please withdraw. [Interjections.] Order, hon members, order!
Mr B M BHANGA: Speaker, I do not remember what it is I should withdraw. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I will study the Hansard and come back with a ruling on this matter. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] [Applause.] Hon member, what point are you rising on?
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, I am also rising on a point of order: I wanted to ask you ... earlier, I requested a ruling on the matter of the submission of the report to this House. [Interjections.] Now, I think we need to check the Hansard about what the hon Van Wyk said, but secondly, now that the hon Pandor has clarified ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have ruled on the matter! I am not going to rule twice or thrice. [Interjections.] Ruling on the matter once is enough. I have ruled on the matter. Please take your seat. [Interjections.] Order! Order!
Mrs J D KILIAN: Mr Speaker, I would like to submit that the admission by the hon Pandor that the report was released in public is demonstrating the disrespect that the ANC government has for this House. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: What point are you rising on? That is a statement! Hon member, we have come to the end of the speakers' list. Do not make another statement.
Adv T M MASUTHA: Speaker, may I rise on a further point of order: A point of order in terms of the Rules can only be raised whilst the member concerned is still at the podium. These spurious points of order that get raised two or three speakers after a speaker has spoken are completely out of order and should not be entertained at any point. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon members.
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 15:41.
/Robyn/ END OF TAKE
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