Hansard: WAIVING OF RULE 75 (Draft Resolution)
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 27 Aug 2012
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 28 August 2012 Take:
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 Sep 2012,"Take 166 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-166] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
START OF DAY
TUESDAY, 28 AUGUST 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____________
The Council met at 14:00.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms T C Memela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
NOTICES OF MOTION
START OF DAY
WAIVING OF RULE 75
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr M P Jacobs): Hon Chairperson, I rise to move:
That the Council-
waives Rule 75 which prohibits members of the Council from discussing any matter that is in substance; and allows political parties represented in the Council an opportunity to read their motions of condolence to the Chief Whip of the Council, hon Ms N D Ntwanambi, who lost her husband yesterday.
Mr H B GROENEWALD
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council-
(1) notes that taxpayers paid more than R33 million to build the Skilpadshek border post between South Africa and Botswana without laying a single brick;
(2) also notes that corrupt officials from the Department of Public Works collected R1,25 million from the contractor for doing them the favour;
(3) acknowledges that taxpayers' money is also being used for four buildings that are not being utilised by the state and they have been empty for more than three years;
(4) further acknowledges that the Minister of Public Works said that all the financial losses and corruption in his department could amount to billions of rands; and
(5) requests the special intervention unit to support the Minister in fighting corruption in his department.
Mr D A WORTH
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council-
notes that the Free State's department of police, roads and transport owes a staggering R2,6 billion to various contractors who had been hired to work on various roads in the province; further notes that the department is currently under administration, and negotiations have started to work out a payment plan to avoid pushing more construction companies, such as the JSE-listed Sanyati Construction, into bankruptcy;
(3) notes that the provincial government has also announced that an investigation would be conducted into allegations that up to R1,9 billion has been spent irregularly on tenders within the department; and
(4) acknowledges that a solution should be found to the challenges surrounding the 26 road projects before there are no roads left in the Free State province.
Mr M W MAKHUBELA
Mr D A WORTH
Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of Cope I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council-
debates the scarcity of water resources in the country; requests the President to establish a task team to investigate the scarcity of water and come up with a comprehensive report indicating the extent of water resources and shortages in the country; and debates a plan to counter the seriousness of water shortages.
Ms M G BOROTO
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Aug 2012,"Take 167 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-167] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Mr M W MAKHUBELA
Ms M G BOROTO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
notes with profound sadness the death yesterday afternoon of Oupa Sigaqa, who was the husband of the Chief Whip of the NCOP, hon N D Ntwanambi; further notes that Mr Sigaqa passed away due to renal failure after a long battle with a kidney disease; and takes this opportunity to convey its heartfelt condolences to hon Ntwanambi and the Sigaqa family, and wishes them strength during these trying times.
Mr D D GAMEDE
Ms M G BOROTO
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
notes with profound sadness the passing of the Ethiopian Prime Minister, Meles Zenawi, on Monday, 20 August 2012, at the age of 57; further notes that Prime Minister Zenawi had been at the helm of both the Tigray People's Liberation Front and the Ethiopian government for more than two decades and made a tremendous contribution in the arena of governance and economic development within Ethiopia, the region and the continent as a whole; and takes this opportunity to convey its condolences to the people of Ethiopia on losing not only a visionary leader, but also an intellectual with passion for leadership development, who had made his mark in the African Union and who stood out as one of the leaders whose views found resonance with the broader thinking on a self-sufficient Africa.
Mr T E CHAANE
Mr D D GAMEDE
Mr T E CHAANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
notes the cruel attack on innocent people of an informal settlement in Fochville, in Gauteng on Saturday night, allegedly by members of a gang identified by the colour of the blankets they wore; further notes that the shooting, which claimed the life of a man and about 10 other people who suffered gunshot wounds, took place at about 10pm on Saturday night when three men entered the tavern and opened fire, assaulted everyone with knobkerries and burnt down five shacks in another section of the township on the same day; and takes this opportunity to condemn this senseless attack and killing of people, and calls upon the investigating officers to work very hard, and to leave no stone unturned in bringing the perpetrators to book.
I so move.
Mr R J TAU
Mr T E CHAANE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chairperson, I hereby ... no, this is a motion without notice.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Sit down! [Interjections.]
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 Aug 2012,"Take 168 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-168] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Mr T E CHAANE
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:
That the Council-
notes that during the state of the nation address in February 2012, President Jacob Zuma emphasised that R313 billion would be spent on infrastructure, led by the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission; further notes that Deputy President Motlanthe recently said that the rot across the board of corruption, nepotism, and mismanagement is not confined to any level or any area of the country; notes the following examples of corruption, nepotism and mismanagement - in 2007 Eskom awarded its largest contract to Hitachi Power Africa and Chancellor House to make a profit of R1 billion from the deal. This project faced an overrun of R60 billion; Cosatu is estimated to have made R24 billion on the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project; and more than R1 billion in public money has been allocated to President Zuma's homestead in Nkandla in KwaZulu-Natal debates infrastructure development and budgeting thereof.
I so move.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
M J R DE VILLIERS
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I wish to give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council
notes the recent ANC policy conference that mandated President Zuma to appoint a commission to deliberate on how provinces need to be demarcated, what number of provinces will be required and what their powers should be; further notes that this commission will only be appointed if it is endorsed at the ANC's national conference in Mangaung in December; acknowledges that it is critical to remember deliberations prior to our constitutional democracy in 1994; notes that consideration should be given to the meltdown of provincial administration in the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, Free State and Gauteng and that it is corruption that should be rooted out; and calls on civil society to secure the role of provinces as envisaged by our constitutional negotiators and ensure that provinces remain central to our constitutional democracy.
I so move.
Mr V M MANZINI
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
Mr V M MANZINI: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council-
debates science as a boon to mankind in remembrance of the late Neil Armstrong, the first astronaut to set foot on the moon; notes that Neil Armstrong died on Sunday, 26 August 2012, at the age of 82; further notes that Armstrong commanded the Apollo 11 spacecraft that landed on the moon on 20 July 1969, capping the most daring of the 20th century's scientific expeditions; acknowledges that Armstrong and Edwin ``Buzz'' Aldrin spent nearly three hours walking on the lunar surface, collecting samples, conducting experiments and taking photographs; realises that Neil Armstrong will be remembered for taking humankind's first small step on a world beyond our own; and recognises that his death is a giant loss for mankind.
I so move.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I want to inform you that I am not going to be asking other people to give motions. We have had quite a long list and, also, when we get to motions without notice, we have to try and spare time. Is that accepted?
Before we start with motions without notice, let me read this. We are all aware as members of the NCOP - and I'm doing this also to alert members who are in this House - that our Chief Whip hon Ntwanambi has lost her husband. We will then allow other people to actually move motions without notice in regard to that. May I have the names of people who will be moving that? The first one will be hon Tau. Are you still going to move a motion?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I must say I am confused Chairperson, because I do have a motion without notice.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): That is what I was saying. Sit down; I will put your name down. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Okay.
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,05 Sep 2012,"Take 169 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you, but let it be clear right from the beginning. Some of you won't get a chance because I am working against time now. Okay?
Mr R J TAU
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
COMMEMMORATION OF DEATH OF GOVAN MBEKI
(Draft Resolution)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
notes that this coming Thursday, 30 August 2012, marks the 11th year since the death of an ANC stalwart, Comrade Govan Archibald Mvuyelwa Mbeki, who passed away on 30 August 2001 at the age of 91; also notes that "Oom Gov", as he was affectionately known, was one of the Rivonia trialists who were imprisoned for terrorism and treason together with Comrade Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Raymond Mhlaba, Andrew Mlangeni, Elias Motsoaledi, Ahmed Kathrada, Billy Nair, Denis Goldberg, Lionel "Rusty" Bernstein, Bob Hepple, Arthur Goldreich, Harold Wolpe, and James "Jimmy" Kantor;
takes this opportunity to pay homage to this great stalwart and selfless leader of our people for his dedication to the fight against apartheid .
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms D Z RANTHO
Mr R J TAU
GROSS MEDICAL NEGLECT AT TSHILIDZINI HOSPITAL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D Z RANTHO: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
notes with shock that the Tshilidzini Hospital in Nngwekhulu Village in Limpopo has supplied a woman with contraceptives and mental illness tablets for more than three years as medication for treatment of her breast cancer; notes that the woman, who cannot read or understand English, at all times believed and thought that she had been given the correct medication for the treatment of her cancer and thought that when she started to feel pains and gained weight, it was a sign of healing; expresses serious concern about this matter and calls on the Minister of Health to institute a thorough investigation, among others to establish: what measures, procedures and controls are in place at the hospital for the dispensing and supplying of medication; why the wrong medication was supplied to the patient over such a long period of time and who was responsible therefore; and what the current status of the cancer patient is; and calls on national and provincial departments of health to implement appropriate measures to ensure that patients are supplied with the correct medication and to ensure that similar incidents do not happen again.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mrs B L ABRAHAMS
Ms D Z RANTHO
CONDOLENCES ON DEATH OF PROFESSOR NEVILLE ALEXANDER
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
conveys its condolences to the family of Professor Emiritus Neville Alexander, who will be remembered for his active role in standing up against the apartheid state and fighting for equal education as well as the work which he did in multilingualism; notes that Professor Alexander was arrested in 1963, along with a number of National Liberation Front members, sentenced to prison on Robben Island from 1964 to 1974 and held under house arrest until 1979; further notes that he worked as the Western Cape Director of the SA Committee for Higher Education, Sached, from 1980 to 1986, which led to the establishment of Khanya College which still assists members of the working class and poor communities; acknowledges that Professor Alexander made an extraordinary and noble academic contribution to liberty in South Africa; and mourns the loss of a great man and asks God to shower His blessings and mercy onto the Alexander family today and in the future. May his soul rest in peace and rise in glory. Hamba kahle, Professor, hamba kahle.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms B V MNCUBE
Ms B L ABRAHAMS
POLICE'S FIGHT ON CRIME IN GAUTENG PROVINCE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B V MNCUBE: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
notes that 85 people were arrested for different crimes in Johannesburg and that 30 of them were arrested for drug-related offences and 55 for other crimes including murder, robbery, hijacking, theft, rape, assault and drunk driving, during roadblocks set up last Friday, 24 August 2012, in Honeydew, Roodepoort, Kagiso, Krugersdorp and other parts of Soweto; further notes that police also discovered three stolen vehicles, drugs, stolen copper cables, counterfeit DVDs and unlicensed firearms and revolvers during the roadblocks, and five premises selling liquor without valid licences were also closed in a stint that the police say is a fight against all forms of criminality in the Gauteng province; and takes the opportunity to congratulate the Provincial Commissioner, General Mzwandile Petros, and MEC Faith Mazibuko for their concerted and resolute fight against crime in the Gauteng province.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
/PIETER//nvs
END OF TAKE
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,29 Aug 2012,"Take 170 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-170] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Ms B V MNCUBE
GOOD WISHES TO SOUTH AFRICAN PARALYMPIC TEAM
(Draft Resolution)
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that the South African Paralympic team left for the United Kingdom last week to participate in the 2012 London Paralympic Games that will start on 29 August 2012;
(2) further notes that the team is determined to be successful and to improve on their achievement at the 2008 Paralympic Games in Beijing when they bagged 21 gold medals, 3 silver medals and 6 bronze medals;
(3) further notes that while some members were part of the team in the past and have represented South Africa with distinction, for others this Olympic Games will be a first and therefore a dream come true; and
(4) wishes the team, the management, the trainers and all support staff well on their participation, on being ambassadors for South Africa and trusts that they will excel to greater heights and successes than ever before.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr S S MAZOSIWE
L P M NZIMANDE
20TH ANNIVERSARY OF BISHO MASSACRE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S S MAZOSIWE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that 7 September 2012 marks the 20th anniversary of the Bisho massacre, which occurred on 7 September 1992 in Bisho, where 28 ANC supporters and one soldier were shot dead and over 200 injured by the Ciskei Defence Force during a protest march when they attempted to enter Bisho to demand its reincorporation into South Africa during the final years of apartheid;
(2) further notes that about 80 000 protesters that were led by senior ANC leaders, including SACP Secretary-General Chris Thembisile Hani, Cyril Ramaphosa, Steve Tshwete and Ronnie Kasrils, gathered outside Bisho on 7 September in 1992 in wide opposition to former Ciskei leader Brig Oupa Gqozo; and
(3) takes this opportunity to pay tribute to the selfless freedom fighters who died during the Bisho massacre, which was one of the watershed events that led to new negotiations between the ANC and the apartheid regime, the signing of the record of understanding and the establishment of an independent body to oversee police operations.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, as I have said, the list is so long that I will only be able to take two more hands. Unfortunately, the others will not be allowed to speak.
Mr R A LEES
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
CALL ON GOVERNMENT TO CEASE PAYMENTS TO SWAZILAND UNTIL CONDITIONS ARE MET
(Draft Resolution)
Mr R A LEES: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with concern reports that South Africa has agreed to start paying Swaziland R1,4 billion as a bailout;
(2) also notes that King Mswati III of Swaziland, the last absolute monarch in the world, continues to refuse to allow a democratic dispensation, lives a lavish lifestyle and has squandered the Swazi people's money on private jets and numerous palaces and wives; and
(3) resolves therefore to call upon the South African government not to pay any monies to Swaziland until strict conditions such as the following are imposed and enforced:
(a) the scrapping of the 39-year-old state of emergency;
(b) the implementation of universal human rights;
(c) that none of the loan funds be spent on the monarchy;
(d) the immediate implementation of a multiparty transitional government; and
(e) the immediate start of multiparty negotiations towards a new democratic constitution for Swaziland.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr B L MASHILE
Mr R A LEES
CONGRATULATIONS TO SOUTH AFRICAN CRICKET TEAM FOR OBTAINING TOP TEST TEAM RANKING
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B L MASHILE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that the South African cricket team, the Proteas, has beaten England 2–0 in the recent Test series in England, with individual achievements such as that of Hashim Amla, who scored a triple century in the first Test with his 311 not out, the highest ever score for a South African in a Test match and the captain, Graeme Smith, who obtained a century in his 100th Test and also holds the world record for captaining a Test side more times than any other Test captain;
(2) further notes that the Proteas are now the number-one Test ranking cricket team in the world and congratulates the team, the players, the coaching staff and the management on this remarkable achievement and on the dedication, superb fitness, sound preparation, excellent discipline and the desire to win of the players;
(3) trusts that this achievement will set the tone for further future greatness and for the team also to become the number-one ranking team in One Day Internationals during the current limited overs series against England; and
(4) wishes the team well for the remaining one-day games against England and trusts that they will once again emerge as world champions.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, we will now proceed. I am sorry about those who I had to cut short. The time has run out.
Mr D V BLOEM: You are sorry. I understand.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you.
Mr A G MATILA
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Aug 2012,"Take 171 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-171] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr A G MATILA: Deputy Chairperson, on 8 August 2012, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development unanimously adopted the South African Police Service Amendment Bill without proposing any amendments.
The Constitutional Court identified the shortcomings in Chapter 6A of the South African Police Service Act, which sets out the structures and functioning of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, and which it was incumbent upon Parliament to remedy.
The Bill addresses the shortcomings of the legislation, as mentioned above, through the following amendments, which relate to, firstly, operational and structural attributes that are to be adequately independent and anticorruption; secondly, the security of tenure and remuneration; and lastly, accountability and oversight by the ministerial committee.
The select committee concurs with the sentiments expressed by the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police on the occasion of the second reading of the Bill in the National Assembly that the South African Police Service Amendment Bill gives effects to the Glenister judgment and will pass constitutional muster.
It therefore recommends that the National Council of Provinces passes the Bill as amended, passed and transmitted by the National Assembly. I so move, Chair. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr A G MATILA
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 Aug 2012,"Take 172 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-172] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
DEBATE ON 15th ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION OF THE NCOP: 15 YEARS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES AND WHAT IT HAS MEANT FOR SOUTH AFRICANS
(Subject for Discussion)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, hon permanent and special delegates, in particular the Premier of Limpopo, thank you very much for being in our midst. I do not see other premiers. [Interjections.] I mean premiers and not their representatives. I also thank the Minister of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs and the Deputy Minister of Education for being present in the House. Hon councillors representing organised local government, distinguished guests and fellow South Africans, today's debate offers us an opportunity to reflect on the 15 years of the existence of the National Council of Provinces.
An important question that we are asking is: What is the meaning to South Africans of the 15 years of the NCOP's journey? The NCOP, which is one of the two Houses in the Parliament of South Africa, came into effect on 06 February 1997. This followed the adoption of South Africa's new Constitution in May, and its signing by President Nelson Mandela on 10 December of the same year.
During the constitution-making process, it took some time to reach the final agreement on the nature and character of the second House of Parliament.
It was not until April 1996, a few weeks before the May deadline for the adoption of the Constitution, that some consensus was reached on the nature of a mandate for the second House of Parliament. Initially, there were different opinions, including whether the second House should be part of Parliament or a unifying structure outside of parliamentary politics.
The breakthrough was achieved after a visit by a panel of experts that was advising the Constitutional Assembly, accompanied by some members of parliament from Germany and Britain, to explore other constitutional models and structures, including the Bundesrat, Germany's second house. It was after this exercise that the chapter on Parliament was significantly improved.
Towards the adoption of the new Constitution, it became clear that the NCOP would have a central role to play in promoting a co-operative government and intergovernmental relations.
Through the new Constitution, the NCOP was mandated to represent provinces and ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It had to do these mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for consideration of issues that are affecting provinces. In addition, the House had to provide for the representation of different categories of municipalities by organised local government.
Consequently, in exercising its legislative power, it was agreed that the NCOP may, firstly, consider, pass, amend, propose amendments to or reject any legislation before it, in accordance with Chapter 4 of the Constitution; and secondly, initiate or prepare legislation that falls within the functional areas that are listed in Schedule 4 of the Constitution or other legislation referred to in section 76(3), but may not initiate or prepare money Bills.
Giving expression to the NCOP's mandate, President Mandela noted when he addressed the House in 1998 that, and I quote:
The NCOP is uniquely placed to reflect the diversity of our society and to synthesise the experience of those spheres of government which are charged with the great bulk of the task of implementing our national programme of fundamental change.
He added that among the other tasks the NCOP is faced with, consensus-building work remained the most vital one.
As was expected, the first five years of the NCOP were formative in nature, given that the House was the first of its kind. The period provided delegates with an opportunity to grapple with and consolidate their understanding of the mandate of the House and how it should be expressed meaningfully.
After the first five years of its existence, delegates to the National Council of Provinces had to give concrete expression to the mandate of the House. It was during this period that certain visible initiatives, such as the launch in 2002 of the institution's flagship programme "Taking Parliament to the People", were taken.
However, in the course of 10 years, the NCOP was still not well understood, and I want to emphasise this. This was in the main as a result of the fact that many people, including some parliamentarians, did not quite understand the role of this House.
Being a consensus builder in the political sphere is difficult, especially when the norm nationally and globally is that of confrontational politics. Delegates to the NCOP are expected to tone down party politics and amplify provincial interests. That is what the Constitution means.
By the end of the first 10 years, the NCOP had registered notable achievements. Among them are the following: It had improved its role in public participation; considered many interventions into municipalities; had not been afraid to disagree where it felt that it was necessary to disagree. An example is the 2004 intervention by the North West government in the Lekwa-Teemane Local Municipality in respect of administration and government issues. The delegates had begun to sharpen their understanding of matters that were central to their provinces. For example, delegates from KwaZulu-Natal and Western Cape were the sharpest when it came to the proposed legislation on public transport, as a result of their experiences.
The 10th anniversary of the NCOP was discussed around this time in 2007, and the discussion highlighted some of the challenges that still faced the institution. The challenges included the following: Improving follow-up mechanisms with regard to the oversight work; ensuring that the NCOP's public participation activities had the desired impact; understanding the impact of the laws that we pass, and the need to focus on areas of concurrent functions such as education, health, social and rural development.
Overall, the view was that the National Council of Provinces needed to focus its work in order to make the necessary impact. It also needed to continue to innovate. Focus in the work of the NCOP may still require critical decisions. For instance, in future, we may need to review the number of our committees. With 54 delegates and 13 select committees, the member-to-committee ratio is 1:4. In the NA, with about 400 members and 35 portfolio committees, the member-to-committee ratio is 1:11. Certainly, there are fewer delegates to a committee in the National Council of Provinces despite the fact that most of the select committees are dealing with a range of portfolios.
The report of the Independent Panel Assessment of Parliament that has been published in the Third Parliament delineates the scope of our oversight. It states that through its oversight role, the National Council of Provinces should be directed by the goal to contribute to an effective government by ensuring that provincial and local concerns are recognised in national policy-making, and that provincial local and national government work is done effectively.
After the 10th anniversary, leading up to the 15th anniversary, the National Council of Provinces has sought to introduce further improvements to ensure that it delivers effectively and efficiently on its mandate. Some of the notable interventions included the following: Firstly, there was a study on the impact of the Taking Parliament to the People programme, which led to the remodelling of the programme to provide for the intensive planning, implementation and follow-up setup of activities. This has seen an increase in the government's commitments and follow-up measures. The 2011 KwaZulu-Natal programme was the biggest beneficiary of this model, with the President committing his government to a number of implementation targets.
Secondly, we have the development of a key focus area to guide the work of the NCOP during the period of the Fourth Parliament. The August 2009 strategic plan session saw the NCOP moving closer and closer to focusing on its work. The need to strengthen oversight at local government level, which has continued to draw the attention of government in general, was raised during this session.
Thirdly, we addressed the ability to assess public interest and to respond accordingly. Over and above the interest of the pressure groups, which have easy access to Parliament and are adequately resourced to lobby parliamentary committees, the NCOP derives public interest from listening to the ordinary citizens who continue to remind us that poverty, inequality and unemployment remain the most serious challenges.
Fourthly, there is the engagement between the NCOP and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, in order to increase the voice of local government. This culminated in the recent Local Government Week, LGW, which placed on the table a number of issues that must be pursued by the National Council of Provinces during this term.
However, in the context of these achievements and challenges, how do we respond to the question: What has the existence of the NCOP meant for South Africans? I am happy to contribute to this debate by stating without equivocation that the NCOP has created a bridge between the Parliament and the people by ensuring that the government engages directly with the people. It has promoted accountability. We have held sessions wherein openness was practised, with ordinary South Africans being able to publicly demand accountability from a public representative. Through this exercise, the NCOP has ensured that transparency and tolerance remained some of the building blocks of our democracy and its expression. It has ensured thoroughness when it comes to such matters.
The Speaker of the National Assembly noted during this year's debate on Parliament's Budget Vote that, and I quote:
More and more legislation is returned to the National Assembly for correction, either section 75 legislation which the NCOP has recommended that the National Assembly amends to make it constitutional, or legislation that was found to be unconstitutional by the courts".
However, while noting the recognition of the work being done by the NCOP on improving legislation, we will still need more and more scrutiny of draft legislation in order to improve the quality of outcomes.
Fellow delegates, in my view, there are three most important things that the NCOP still needs to do in order to contribute further to building our democracy. They are the following: Firstly, we need to focus, focus and focus on our mandate so that we get South Africa to focus on issues that matter such as education, health, social and rural development; and secondly, we need to enhance our expertise in the area of oversight so that we get smarter and smarter as a democracy. For example, given the fact that we now have a national vision for 2030 in the form of the National Development Plan, we need to start now to gear our oversight towards achieving the vision 18 years from now.
We need to continue to minimise the gap between those who are governing and those who are being governed. Following a worldwide opinion poll, the secretary-general of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, noted in 2009 that, and I quote:
Parliament ... must be concerned with the gulf that separates public aspirations for democratic governance and vigorous public debate, and the widely held perception of political life as a closed space where there is little room for dissent and real consideration of alternative policy options.
Interestingly, the NCOP's Taking Parliament to the People programme is one initiative that the IPU itself, the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association have publicly noted as a great concept for enhancing democratic practice.
Nonetheless, the National Council of Provinces needs to continuously re-engineer itself to ensure that we remain relevant to the needs of South Africans. The possible reduction of the number of provinces, an issue which is being debated by the ruling party, may require this House to become more and more focused.
We need to prepare ourselves for the critical role of acting as a synthesiser for service delivery needs and how best the government can meet these needs. To do this, we need to adopt a holistic approach to oversight and the consideration of legislation.
In closing, I would like to thank the current and previous delegates to this House for ensuring that the NCOP fulfilled its mandate. This would not have been possible without the sterling leadership of its previous chairpersons, Mosiuoa Lekota, Naledi Pandor and the late Joyce Kgoali, and the current Deputy Minister of the Department of Basic Education, Enver Surty, who was the Chief Whip in this House. We need to continue to build on their work.
With these words, I would like invite South Africans to deepen the debate about this institution, what it has meant for them over the past 15 years and what it still needs to do.
As part of marking the 15-year anniversary, we have held a seminar on children's rights earlier this year, and held Local Government Week. We are currently working with the University of the Western Cape, UWC, to initiate a lecture series and engagement programmes which we hope will extend other tertiary institutions.
Just as others have done, I would also like to pass on words of condolences to the Chief Whip and her family on the passing of her husband. We say we are really sorry about the occurrence.
I thank you for affording me the opportunity to participate in this debate. I wish you all the best. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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Mr M J MAHLANGU
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you, hon Mahlangu. At this juncture I wish to recognise the women in the gallery from the Bonteheuwel multi-purpose centre and the women from Langa. Welcome and thank you very much for paying us a visit. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP, Premier of Limpopo, our Deputy Ministers present, all permanent and nonpermanent delegates and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, delegate to the NCOP, it is indeed an unfortunate coincidence that we have this celebratory debate when the Chief Whip of this House, uMama Ntwanambi is in the cold, mourning the sad loss of her husband. We pray that the Lord God gives her strength and courage at this difficult time.
This occasion of celebrating 15 years of the NCOP and what it has meant for South Africans presents us with an opportunity to reflect on the activities of this House, mirrored against the defined vision for Parliament, which says:
To build an effective peoples' Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa.
The NCOP is a representative House of Parliament, not merely on a political basis, but as part of national Parliament. The NCOP brings all nine provinces as well as organised local government together into one. Although delegates are drawn on a party-political basis and have to project the views and aspirations of those parties, they all know that in this House, their voices are representative of the voices of their constituencies. For 15 years, this House has been seen to give priority to the preferences of the people.
I can assure hon delegates that we, as South Africans and its people of course, can say "together as one, under the leadership of the NCOP". The House has truly lived up to projecting the character of a Peoples' Parliament, as directed in the vision of Parliament. The project, Taking Parliament to the People, as referred to by the Chairperson, is one flagship programme of the NCOP. It provided a one-stop platform in terms of which the people had access to engage with both Parliament and government at the three spheres.
The people of the Western Cape had an opportunity to participate in the engagement programme organised by the NCOP between 29 October and 2 November in 2007. They focused on themes under the overall theme of "Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi" [Let's deepen the debate]. It encouraged people to debate amongst themselves and with government across all three spheres. I can indicate that that debate, and the deepening of the debate, is still as relevant today as it will always be in this province and other provinces.
The people also discussed issues related to co-operative governance; poverty alleviation; agriculture as a tool for poverty alleviation; structures to address the challenges faced by children, youth and people with disabilities; women empowerment; water supply; the roll-out and impact of the Expanded Public Works Programmes, and other related initiatives. Guided by the same focus areas, the NCOP facilitated oversight visits to projects in the community. It was not just a question of talking for the sake of talking, but a question of saying yes, let's get our brains to sweat as we think about and debate these issues. Let's go out on the ground and see what is happening.
Looking at this interaction, there is no doubt that as a conscience of the nation, the NCOP lived up to what is expected of it: to empower the people of the Western Cape with the knowledge derived from the information they received. When we note that the engagement that took place in October and November 2009 was, in fact, the ninth engagement - which means the NCOP had been to the other eight provinces by that time - we can then recognise the impact nine times. If we look at the different issues that were discussed from province to province, it confirms that for 15 years the NCOP has been known to the people; there is no space between the people and Parliament. There is no space between the people and government. Through the NCOP, we are cemented together as one.
Looking at this interaction, it is a merit-worthy observation that the NCOP provided the necessary practical education to government-people engagements and open debates on issues that affect the people. We can use this, of course, in our constituencies as delegates and also as deployed people with constituency offices all over the country. Looking at this interaction, we can proudly say that the NCOP succeeded in exposing the reality that in a democracy, which we are, it is more about the people in the act of governance and not more about the structures themselves.
The lessons provided through the engagement led by the NCOP in the project of 2007 are still relevant today. We still have to be led in writing further success stories for ways and means to address the triple challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality. We must allow our brains to sweat to accomplish our objective of creating a better life for all the people of South Africa. Nothing can beat engagement.
In these times when we witness public protests from point to point, and we see people so intolerant towards one another and government, and realise the unfortunate spicing of protests with violence, we need such lessons, as provided by the NCOP, through the project of Taking Parliament to the People, to further deepen the debate to find solutions to today's challenges.
It was the NCOP that brought us together during the Local Government Week held from 31 July to 3 August this year to engage on matters with the purpose of strengthening the local government sphere for effective service delivery. Once more, that event cemented the achievements the NCOP has been recording since its inception: to bring the three spheres of government under one roof to discuss issues of common interest.
We had an opportunity to participate in the said event and we made a commitment to work together with all the structures in the areas. This would ensure that the issues raised in the Local Government Week engagements were not in vain. We recited the commitments as punctuated in the manner we resolved in the beginning, to drive an institutionalised and projectised local government turnaround strategy in the areas of accelerated service delivery, enhanced good governance, sound financial management, massified and sustained infrastructure roll-out programmes and an intensified fight against corruption.
We committed and made a call for all of us to work together across the three spheres. This would support the local governance mechanisms to a point where the people will recognise the work we do under the leadership of the NCOP. It couldn't have been any other institution. It couldn't have been any other organisation, any other House, but the NCOP, that could bring us together to talk about those issues.
In that call to work together, we said that, supported by the NCOP, ours is to provide support to the municipalities, to the point where the people refer to all municipalities in the following way: My municipality is my service. My municipal worker is my future. My municipal union is my partner. My Salga is my collective voice. My demarcation board is my reliable compass. My Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa, is our solutions. My traditional institution is my pride. My Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, is my intergovernmental relations facilitator. My community is my call. Of course, my NCOP is my inter-governmental relations authority.
There is a very important role that the NCOP has been playing and continues to play, as duly mandated by the Constitution. This is as an authority in case the executive plays its role in supporting, monitoring and intervening in the activities of municipalities in terms of section 139 of the Constitution. We are taking stock of municipalities that have been placed under administration in terms of section 139. We are taking stock in terms of the reasons that made it possible or that necessitated that such things happen. We are taking stock in terms of whether those who placed those municipalities under section 139 have lived up to what the Constitution dictates to them to do. At the end of the day, we are also looking at whether that intervention resulted in a turnaround strategy. [Interjections.] Our understanding is that it has to be in the spirit of support, support, and nothing but support.
As we celebrate the NCOP, this is one of the issues that we have to give attention to so that we neither take short cuts nor abdicate our responsibilities in this regard. This celebration takes place during the debate on the Auditor-General's report on audit outcomes for municipalities that reflects, of course, that we have more work to do. We don't have more time to reflect on this at this celebration. The commitment we can make is that we are just as readily available should we receive a call from the NCOP to come and address this House.
As I conclude, I want to state that yes, the NCOP has for 15 years carried its weight to promote the values we set for our Parliament. Among other things, we said:
Our values guide the management of Parliament. Our values are formed by that which we treasure and hold dear. It forms the foundation that gives rise to policies.
We also said many other things about ourselves. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, and thanks also go to the House. [Applause.]
Ms EC VAN LINGEN
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The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, please allow me to also convey our condolences, on behalf of the DA, to the Chief Whip, her family, children and grandchildren on the loss of her husband.
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, today is a day of celebration. It is the day where the DA can appreciate and remember the great successes of the NCOP over the last 15 years and to also build on our strengths. The NCOP is a unique House with unique functions. It is different to the other upper Houses in the bicameral systems of the world.
The NCOP is called the National Council of Provinces because it has the mandate, in the Constitution, to be the House of Parliament for the provinces. We need to authentically represent our provinces and drive provincial issues in the NCOP. We must be the provincial experts, attend and participate in community meetings and sittings in the provinces, as provided for in section 113 of the Constitution.
We must build our provinces and take what is good in one province and apply it in another. For instance, there are many excellent achievements in the Western Cape that can be applied, in certain circumstances, in other provinces. There are various DA youth programmes in progress to reconcile and redress injustices of the past. [Interjections.] Similarly, there are other projects of excellence in other provinces and municipalities that can be implemented elsewhere.
It is our leadership responsibility to build all our provinces rather than to destroy and destabilise them. What is happening in the Western Cape at the moment is wrong. It is the duty of the ANC to stop the violence against the Western Cape government. [Interjections.] The unrest is politically-driven and the ANC has to take ownership of these irresponsible actions. We have seen worse outcries for service delivery in other provinces. Andries Tatane died in such a protest in the Free State. Here, in the Western Cape, four people have already paid with their lives. The ANC Youth League is chasing its own agenda and it is not driving the real issues in the province.
The NCOP is the 11th legislature in the country where laws are passed. We have a specific provincial responsibility with our section 76 Bills which we take to public hearings in our provinces and then come back with the provincial mandate to either support or reject them. At the moment, we have the Protection of the State Information Bill and Traditional Courts Bill which are both very controversial. We have to protect our freedom.
We have a unique oversight role in the NCOP with various events where the NCOP takes government to the people. The purpose is to improve governance and service delivery on ground level.
As the DA, it is our aim to take this House forward. We are committed to do so and mobilising it as the NCOP, fulfilling our constitutional mandate to make this House relevant to the provinces by implementing our duties to ensure that provinces remain central to our democracy; promote provincial needs with departments and their budgets; scrutinise annual reports in order to ensure that the money gets to the provinces; participate in our provinces' committee meetings and sittings; drive our provincial and constituency issues in the NCOP; ensure that our rights are not jeopardised by new legislations or amendments; and ensure that our rights and freedoms are maintained as in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, ensure that the oversight functions do serve the purpose of service delivery; ensure that the section 100 and 139 and the softer interventions are implemented to bring the desired outcomes; to hold the governing party accountable for their promises such as the youth wage subsidy to grant opportunities as provided for in the R9-billion budget; and to hold political parties accountable for using critical issues to pursue their agendas at the cost of stability in the provinces, municipalities and job creation institutions like mines.
The DA will ensure that this House becomes the upper House of Parliament and that our provinces, municipalities and people are served with excellence. I thank you. [Applause.]
UMntwana M M M ZULU
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
UMntwana M M M ZULU: Sekela likaSomlomo, Sihlalo weNdlu, uNgqongqoshe okhona neSekela likhe, Ndunankulu waseLimpopo, abahlonishwa abangamalungu eziShayamthetho zonke zaseNingizimu Afrika, abahlonishwa abangamalungu ale Ndlu...[Ubuwelewele.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Use the microphone please!
UMntwana M M M ZULU: Mhlonishwa Sekela likaSihlalo wale Ndlu, kuwumlando ukuthi le ngane esikhule yaze yaba neminyaka eyishumi nanhlanu isebenza kuleli lizwe lakithi. Kodwa-ke, kufanele sibheke ukuthi namanje sisayithatha njengengane yini njengoba sineminyaka eyishumi nanhlanu sisembusweni wentando yeningi.
Kubaluleke kakhulu ukuthi le Ndlu yenze ngokulinganayo kubo bonke abantu baseNingizimu Afrika njengokusebenza kwentando yeningi, ngoba ngesinye isikhathi siyaye sizikhohlise ngokuthi kukhona okungenziwa uMkhandlu kaZwelonke ngaphandle kwale Ndlu. Le Ndlu iphethe umzimba wonke wezwe lakithi nezwi labantu baseNingizimu Afrika uqobo, ngoba la kule Ndlu kuhlala ngisho abahlonishwa bethu abangamakhansela, ukuze kuhlanganiseke yonke imikhakha kahulumeni ibe ngaphansi kwendlu eyodwa ikhulume.
Ngiwashayela ihlombe lawo maqembu epolitiki ayekhona ezingxoxweni zokwakhiwa koMthethosisekelo wezwe ngoba enza izinguquko ezibonakalayo ukuze kufezeke intando yeningi ezweni lakithi, nokuthi izidingo zabantu zifinyelele kubantu. Kodwa-ke, kukhona abanye abantu abayithatha ngenye indlela le Ndlu kuzo izifundazwe uqobo. Ndunankulu, bathatha ngokuthi asikwazi ukuthi uma sibuya kwiSonto leziFundazwe uNdunankulu noSomlomo basibizele oNgqongqoshe beziFundazwe kuxoxwe ukuthi yiziphi izinkinga ezikhona, kepha balindele ukuthi kube yithina okufanele sazi ukuthi siza nani.
Ngibona ukuthi lokho kuphambene nesakhiwo sezwe uqobo lwaso ngoba yibona okufanele basixoxele ukuthi kukhonani, bese siza nakho kule Ndlu sikudingide sisonke ukuthi kusifundazwe engiphuma kuso kushoda lokhu nalokhu, sikhulume noNgqongqoshe ukuze bazi ukuthi ezifundazweni kuhamba kanjani.
Izinto lezi, mhlonishwa Sihlalo neSekela likaSihlalo wale Ndlu, okufanele niziqikelele njengabantu abakhethiwe ukuba bamele ukuthi le Ndlu isebenza kanjani. Le Ndlu, ngokwami njengendoda yakwaZulu, ngiyibona kuyi Ndlu ebalulekile ekufezeni izidingo zabantu kuwo wonke amazinga abantu, ngoba singamalungu ale Ndlu sazi ukuphefumula kwabantu, sihlala nabantu, futhi sazi ukuthi baphila yiphi impilo; yizo zonke izinto okufanele zilungiswe.
Mhlonishwa, emnyangweni wakho kufanele ukubhekisise ukuthi uMthetho wezaKhiwo zoMasipala: koHulumeni baseKhaya [Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, Act 117 of 1998] ayichibiyeleki yini ngoba laphayana kuthiwa kwenziwa iziphakamiso bese ziyesekwa, ayikho inkulumompikiswano. Yingakho kunokuphikisana okuningi kangaka ezweni, kusukela lapho ngoba izindaba zakhona azixoxwa...[Kuphele isikhathi.]
C/W: Mr P PRETORIUS (WESTERN CAPE DEPUTY SPEAKER)
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PRINCE M M M ZULU:
Starts 15:22:05.87
Prince M M M ZULU
Mr P PRETORIUS (Western Cape): Hon Deputy Chair, may I, on behalf of the Western Cape, convey our deepest condolences to hon Ntwanambi and her family on the passing away of her husband and father of her children. May they find strength in this time of bereavement.
Madam Deputy Chairperson, I am particularly honoured to speak in this House for the first time today. I had the privilege, as an official of Parliament, of working at the Table of two former Houses which had their seats in this very Chamber, inter alia, the Senate which preceded the NCOP. The Senate that was introduced in 1994 was never intended to be a permanent or a long-term institution; and almost from its inception there were talks about how it could or should be transformed. Unlike the NCOP, the Senate did not have particularly strong links with the provinces, despite the fact that its members were nominated by the various provincial legislatures.
However, the first President and Deputy President of the Senate, Kobie Coetzee and Govan Mbeki, affectionately known as "Oom Gov", respectively, did their utmost best to forge closer relations with provinces. And they did this, inter alia, by creating a standing committee that would undertake extensive provincial visits and would interact with a wide spectrum of role-players in the various provinces. This committee was called the Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces or better known as SCOLP. And in many respects, this committee could be regarded as the pioneer of provincial oversight.
The first Chairperson of SCOLP was the Leader of the House, Dr Sam Motsuenyane, and together with the then Chief Whip, Bulelani Ngcuka, the three of us planned those first provincial visits as best as we could. I was involved in my capacity as Secretary to the Senate.
May I remind hon members that that was the era when cell phones or even the Internet and e-mails had only just become available, and logistically it was therefore quite a nightmare to finalise programmes. But we, nevertheless, managed to conduct successful visits to a number of provinces and followed that up with detailed reports which were debated in the House. Reports and resolutions of the Senate were then forwarded to the various provinces for action. It would be interesting to see, 16 years later, what the outcomes were.
Deputy Chairperson, the NCOP is now 15 years old, and we congratulate all involved in the House today, members as well as staff. In doing so, of course, one also has to acknowledge the role played by former permanent and special delegates of this House. When one congratulates a 15-year old teenager on his or her birthday, one does so essentially to give recognition to the fact that the person has reached a certain numerical milestone.
It does not mean that you automatically approve of everything that the person did in that period. That person might have been naughty or undisciplined – and I am not implying that this teenager, called the NCOP, has been naughty or undisciplined. But I think one must be honest and acknowledge that there were successes, but there is also the view that this child is not, in all respects, the teenager that we all expected it would turn out to be. Perhaps, the child is not to be blamed alone, but also the parents, our constitutional drafters.
The NCOP was established as a second House of Parliament, specifically to represent the interests of the provinces. And in that respect, it represented an improvement on the Senate that it replaced. Although the NCOP is to some degree based on a European model, particularly the German one, it remains a unique body. As the Chairperson had indicated, our constitutional negotiators at the time also considered the option of creating a body for provincial interests which would not form part of Parliament, but that did not realise.
One of the foremost functions of the NCOP is to promote co-operative governance and consensus-building work. This was highlighted by no other than President Mandela himself, when he addressed the NCOP in 1998. It is, of course, a moot question whether that high ideal has always been realised over the past 15 years.
Although the NCOP's emphasis is on provinces and oversight over service delivery and it has over time attempted to strengthen that role, inter alia, through actions such as "Taking Parliament to the People" programmes and other oversight visits, it shares many functions with the National Assembly, and effectively duplicates certain functions. For example, Questions to the President and Ministers, and motions on provincial matters are equally and perhaps with even more prominence, dealt with in the National Assembly – which really should be the domain of the NCOP. Oversight is done equally extensively by the National Assembly. The NCOP is perhaps not different enough!
In an Internet search of views of academics and scholars it was difficult to find strong support and praise for the institution. Criticisms ranged from it being a rubber stamp of the National Assembly; of not adding real value; of not effectively representing the interests of provinces to criticism of delegates serving their parties first and only thereafter their provinces.
From the perspective of my province, we would argue, apart from the complex constitutional question whether provincial matters are best served by an institution such as this, that one of the most critical problems, at a practical level, has been the lack of proper co-ordination and timeous consultation relating to oversight visits in the province. It is vital that provinces have ample prior warning of intended visits. We all have full programmes, worked out long in advance, and oversight visits arranged in an ad hoc fashion and at short-notice are perhaps not in the spirit of co-operative governance.
Misgivings about the NCOP have also been expressed by prominent academic, Prof Pierre de Vos. I quote from an article titled Don't say goodbye to the NCOP yet:
The NCOP has not been a great success. As the second House of the national Parliament, it is supposed to represent the interests of provinces in the national law-making process. Hence it was envisaged that the NCOP would play a pivotal role in the passing of laws by the national Parliament – making sure that impractical laws that will be impossible to implement properly in provinces are never passed. But for several reasons this has not happened.
And then Prof de Vos mentions some of the reasons, inter alia, that because of the strong influence of political parties, voting effectively takes place strictly in accordance with party political instructions.
But, finally, let me refer to a ray of hope, a positive view expressed by another prominent scholar, Adv Paul Hoffman, SC, from the Institute for Accountability in Southern Africa.
With reference to the NCOP's dealing with the controversial Protection of State Information Bill, and the possibility that the NCOP would amend the draft Bill to satisfy concerns relating to the public interest defence, Adv Hoffman states that:
There are signs that the NCOP does not regard itself as a rubber stamp either for the National Assembly or for the ideas that come out of Luthuli House.
Time will tell whether Adv Hoffman's view was too optimistic or indeed the NCOP has the courage to follow its own conviction and do what is right for the country.
We do not know what the next few years will hold for our democracy and its institutions, whether the NCOP in its current form will survive another 15 years. Perhaps the NCOP needs more time to realise its full potential. However, if changes do occur they should be such that provincial powers are strengthened rather than weakened. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr P Pretorius
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister, hon premier, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates who are present here as well as representatives from the SA Local Government Association, Salga, it's good to see some old colleagues here.
Let me from the outset say that colleagues such as Sogoni, Suka, Loretta Jacobus and many others who are in the National Assembly have asked me to convey their best wishes to the NCOP on its 15th anniversary. Barbara Thompson, who is also a Deputy Minister, has also done so. All of them have indicated quite unequivocally that this institution has shaped them in ways that cannot be explained.
I am also a product of this particular institution at the level of my personal development and also in my understanding of co-operative governance. Therefore, I'm better able to cope with issues of intervention, as the premiers from Limpopo and the Eastern Cape would do understand, because I am sensitive to the boundaries, the need for co-operative governance and the manner and the approach that should be adopted in this regard.
Chairperson, it's also good to see the deputy speaker, Mr Pretorius who was the first Secretary of the Senate who subsequently played a role in the shaping of the institution.
Thank you so much for the kind invitation you extended to me in my capacity as the Deputy Minister, but I think, more importantly, in terms of my former role as the Chief Whip of the NCOP.
There are many perspectives to anything whether it's education, justice, provinces and their roles, NCOP or the National Assembly. Mr Pretorius is quite right that there may be opposing views and diverse views in this regard. I think any institution is as powerful as its members. People do complain from time to time that the National Assembly is nothing like it was in the first five years and the members are less vocal, less robust in terms of the debate and tend to prepare less than their predecessors did. I'm not saying that I agree with that sentiment but these are sentiments that are expressed.
Similar sentiments might be expressed about this institution as it existed in the past and as it will exist in the future.
I think the starting point has to be that this is a unique institution. There is no institution like the NCOP anywhere in the world. Whilst we have borrowed quite significantly from the Bundesrat in Germany, we are not a federal state. In terms of how we conducted and established our Rules, they were quite unique and homemade; they were not designed or imported from anywhere else but they were developed within the context of our institution as a second House of Parliament. I still don't know whether this is a upper house, second house or other house but it is an institution of Parliament.
Nowhere do you have a better opportunity where you will find that there is a hybrid of political debates and discussions, which occur at one level and then, on the other hand, a combination and coalescence of provincial interests. Therefore, in terms of legislative processes, you have the section 75 approach which allows for political participation and political debate along party-political lines. In the same institution you have the`section 76 process where provincial interests occur and then the debates aren't quite robust. But, from a provincial perspective and along provincial lines, the mandate that is given is on the basis of a vote per province.
Interestingly and importantly, the person who bears that particular mandate is the premier of a province and hence the importance of our premier from Limpopo out here because he has the mandate. That means that the highest executive authority in the province carries and passes on the mandate to the delegation from Limpopo in the instance of Limpopo, or in any other province.
People tend to forget about the power of that mandate, which means that it combines both the legislative and the executive authority in terms of assigning a particular mandate to this particular House. It doesn't happen anywhere else.
We have a rare occasion where we can say that, as a permanent member of this House, you can go to the provincial legislature and debate, discuss and try to influence and shape opinion. To what extent do we as members utilise that opportunity? Similarly, to what extent does a special delegate who represents a direct provincial interest come to this House and try to shape and influence thinking in a way that contributes to the development of debate, discussion and the shaping of legislation?
These are the opportunities that present themselves within the constitutional framework. If we do not optimally utilise these opportunities, we cannot say that the institution is weak. We should rather say that the members that represent and make up the institution are not taking seriously enough their roles as members of this institution. These opportunities are quite rare and they don't occur anywhere else. It's something that we should pay particular attention to.
But what is the power? Have we ever reflected seriously on the power of this House? If an intervention occurs in terms of section 139 or section 100, this House has the ultimate authority to say continue, desist or abort. You have that power. It cannot be imposed on you politically or by a single province. It's the collective decision of this House on the basis of its observation, research and reflection. It will decide in the best interest of that particular province whether it is sustainable, whether it should indeed continue or whether it should be aborted. It's a power that has to be carried out with a sense of responsibility. More often than not, we tend to forget about that. More often than not, we tend to forget the importance and the centrality of this institution in the web of intergovernmental relations.
I think that's what the Minister tried to convey to us: If you understand the NCOP, and reflect on and celebrate all other institutions, including the Ministry, reflect and celebrate also this institution because it is the ultimate symbiotic representation of co-operative governance. I think that this power is often forgotten.
Let's take another example of this enormous power you wield. A Bill on health or education is introduced either in this House or in the other House. Let's assume it's introduced in the National Assembly. It then comes to the NCOP. They propose, reflect on it and, in consultation with the provinces, they amend the legislation. Obviously, the Bill has to go back to the National Assembly. They do not accept it, and reject the amendments. What is the next step? Do we know? It's mediation. It means equal numbers determine the future and the destiny of that particular Bill. Most of our significant legislation deals with concurrent powers. Whether we are talking about agriculture, health or education, we talk about concurrent powers. Basically, it means that you represent the ultimate destiny of legislation.
Notwithstanding your limited numbers, particularly as permanent representatives, constitutionally you have this enormous power. Even if, numerically, you're a small group of members, you have the power that you carry with you. Have you recognised the authority that you have as an institution? If you've diminished that in terms of how you manage your affairs, do not say that the institution is weak. Say that we should do better in terms of how we exercise that particular power. That is important and critical for us to understand.
Similarly, I hear the critics. But if we look at the history, it's now 15 years. It's still a teenager and iconoclastic, still shaping our future; sometimes robust; sometimes unsure and making mistakes. That's the character of a nascent democracy and the character of a teenager that is growing.
In the history of our legislative processes, this House has made an impact with regard to section 76 legislation as well as the important section 75 legislation. That means that the voice of the NCOP is heard. Yes, they are reflecting on what is termed the Information Bill and certainly everybody, including the media, is looking to this House. If indeed they were a rubber stamp, they would have taken it for granted and assume, without any regard to its responsibilities, that the legislation is going to go through. I really believe in the Chairperson, Mr Mahlangu. He will tell you about the important role that he and many others have played as chairpersons of various select committees.
I'm saying to you that that power, both in terms of political decisions and provincial decisions, exists not in a vacuum but in reality and it's a question of how you exercise it.
There is another important dimension which the Chairperson of the NCOP has spoken to - the public participatory process. It's quite historical and important that you can have the seat of Parliament, as it were, moved to a province in the locality of people who do not have access and the opportunity to go to Parliament, that Even the President of the country also participates in the debate in plenary, that national and provincial Ministers of government go down to that particular destination that has been chosen by this House to participate and interact with people. I think it's significant, it's huge and it's democratic. Therefore, it's something that we should celebrate, as it's something that gives us a particular instrument.
We had the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs here and I think she was here in solidarity and certainly to affirm the contribution of this House. Also, she was here because she played a significant role in developing the approach for oversight for both the National Assembly and the NCOP. We have these resources, Mr Pretorius included.
Within our midst, there are former members of the NCOP who have reflected on this matter. Instead of having consultants do your work, occasionally invite members who have institutional memory and who would contribute to it without any political bias.
The last point that I would like to make is with reference to the provincial leaders, that is, the premiers. If you want this House to contribute to the power of the province, legislative, executive or otherwise, it is your responsibility and critical to bear in mind that this does not become a dumping ground for people whom you regard as redundant. Carefully consider the representation that you have to the NCOP to say this House represents broad interests of a particular province, and indeed it does that.
It is unusual to those of us who have served here that this House has passed notices of motion, with debates with a common resolution across party-political lines, not once, but many times. From this House we learnt the powers of persuasion across political lines; we learnt about the powers of persuasion across provincial lines, and we learnt about common purpose and the common good of our people. If those lessons have not been learnt from our participation in this institution, then indeed we are a weak institution, then indeed we are a timid institution. We should reflect on where we should go from here.
The debate about provinces, for example - whether it's within the ANC context or anywhere else - is critical and central. We can't ignore that reality. Are they viable, should there be nine, should there be less or should they be retained? It's a debate that should take place here boldly, honestly and audaciously so that we can basically inform the thinking of any political party, including the ruling party, to say that this might be your perspective but, from an institutional perspective, these are the views that we want to express very strongly, irrespective of which party you belong to.
These are the thoughts that I have. As you celebrate 15 years of existence, I'm confident that you can only grow from strength to strength. I would like to certainly commend the leadership of the Chairperson and his remark on the leadership of the former leaders - and they are remarkable people in their own right, each one of them. Certainly he has played an enormous role in terms of taking this House forward. I also commend your role, Deputy Chairperson.
I would like to conclude by expressing my deepest sympathy to the current Chief Whip on the great loss to her family. We have been friends for a very long time. She was my provincial whip when I was the Chief Whip. I do share her grief and suffering. May God give her the strength and power to carry on each day in a much more meaningful way, understanding that God had at least provided her an opportunity to spend many fruitful years with her spouse.
Deputy Chairperson and every member who is here, thank you for the wonderful opportunity and for inviting us from time to time. Thank you also for making our interaction with you possible. To the special delegates, thank you particularly to the premier who has made time to come here. Deputy Speaker, thank you for your presence as well. Thanks, ma'am. [Applause.]
Ms L Shabalala
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 Aug 2012,"Take 177 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): May I make a request to the hon Peter. Could you allow hon Shabalala to speak before you? The reason is that she might be late for her flight. Is that accepted?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
Ms L SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon delegates, before I start my speech ...
IsiZulu:
... ngifisa ukudlulisa ukukhalisana nomndeni waSotswebhu oMkhulu, ikakhulukazi ngoba ngike ngaba nethuba lokubonana nomyeni wakhe ngikwakhe.
English:
We shared a few lighter moments, and ...
IsiZulu:
... ngalawo mazwi, siyazwelana kakhulu naye.
English:
Hon Deputy Chairperson and the hon Council, how we got here and where we come from is historical.
I am reminded of a man who slipped whilst walking on the edge of a dam. Spectators, thinking that he was demonstrating his expertise in swimming, clapped hands. When he emerged from the water on the other side, they asked him how he had managed to do that. He told them that it was by accident and that, in fact, he had slipped.
This is an illustration of us as South Africans. We found our lives under the colonialism of a special type which compelled us to stand up against the apartheid regime. By not allowing ourselves to be bystanders and subscribe to complacency, today we celebrate 15 years of the NCOP since its inception.
IsiZulu:
Sibonga umbutho wabantu, uKhongolose, ngokumela abantu abacindezelekile size sibe nenqubomgomo eyakhe lo Mkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe.
English:
The space that this Council occupies in the public domain, especially in the media, is one of the challenges it experiences. There is much that the NCOP has done through public participation. One of the critical issues and fundamental rights in the Bill of Rights is freedom of association, which you have taught our people, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, how best to do in practice. As a delegation of the NCOP you came as one unit though you represented several parties. You left a mark, a footprint that will leave KwaZulu-Natal as one of the better provinces.
I wish to congratulate this Council. I am convinced that this Council will always respond to the triple challenges as part of advancing the programme of the national democratic revolution, NDR. We cannot afford the consequence of the social distance. Hence I really appreciate your efforts and wish to say to you that the strategy of being out there in the public is one of the ways of showing how the NCOP is the ears and mouthpiece of our people. In the spirit of intergovernmental relations, IGR, I congratulate the NCOP and wish you all luck. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M PETER
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Ms L SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Peter, once again, thank you very much for allowing the other member to speak before you.
Mr M PETER (Eastern Cape): Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, delegates, Minister and Deputy Minister present here, Premier Mathale, our distinguished guests in the gallery and ladies and gentlemen, I bring you greetings from the lovely province of the Eastern Cape, the home of many outstanding leaders of our people, like the first Premier of the Eastern Cape, the late Raymond Mhlaba – "Oom Ray" – Henry Fazi, and others.
Wherever they are today, these leaders are smiling as we celebrate yet another milestone for another democratic institution they set up for us. The sacrifices they made and the commitment they displayed in setting up our constitutional democratic structures have yielded positive results. Today, as we celebrate the 15th anniversary of the NCOP, we need to reflect on how this institution has evolved over the years and reflect on its strengths, so that our future generations can enjoy its benefits.
One of the most outstanding features of the NCOP over the past years has been its consistent visits to all corners of our country. With these visits, members of this House have been able to discover a little about the unacceptable levels of service delivery, the ill treatment of our people by some officials at service points, and the lack of monitoring by those who are charged with the responsibility to oversee departments and municipalities. If the NCOP did not embark on this initiative, gross cases of negligence and "don't care" attitudes by officials would go unnoticed. This is the area of work of the NCOP that we need to intensify.
As members, we should be more enthusiastic to leave the chairs of this House and the lights of Cape Town to go and see how our people live in the cliffs and valleys of Lusikisiki. We should look forward to this work, because in those cliffs and valleys, there might be an old woman who cannot access an old age grant, even though her age permits her to have one. In those cliffs and valleys, there might be children who continue to study under trees, even though a budget has been issued for the construction of a school for them. These are the kind of cases that should drive us every morning to want to change the lives of our people.
The majority of members in this House will know that the triple challenge confronting our society, that of poverty, inequality, and unemployment, is the consequence of centuries of exploitation perpetrated against the majority of our people. This is a fact. This is not natural but was committed against the citizens of this country by the apartheid government. Therefore, the NCOP is regarded...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Sorry, hon member. Hon Van Lingen, can you quickly move back to your seat, please?
Mr M PETER (Eastern Cape): Therefore, the NCOP is regarded as a concrete expression of co-operative governance. This places a high priority on consultation, co-ordination, and communication between the different spheres of government and all organs of state. There is still a lot of work to be done by the NCOP, and some of this work includes the popular participation of our people in the process of passing Bills.
Legislatures need enough time to conduct public hearings and should not be given short notice for such hearings. There has been an outcry from various corners of our society where people claimed that they were not consulted properly, which would have allowed them to make inputs. A case in point is the Traditional Courts Bill, which saw many public hearings being held in townships rather than rural areas where this Bill will have the biggest impact.
Yes, there have been positives, and the Taking Parliament to the People initiative has worked wonders in the most far-flung areas of our country. We need to have more of these, as it gives hope to our people that they are not forgotten by their representatives.
Our country has made tremendous strides in entrenching democratic institutions like the NCOP. The onus is on the current members of this House to ensure that this institution remains relevant. This institution can only maintain its relevance if its members conduct its business with dignity and passion to improve the lives of our people, especially the most vulnerable. Our drive should at all times be about serving the interests of the people, nothing less and nothing more.
If we do that, we will be giving our movement, the ANC, a great centenary present, one which our heroes – our forebears – will be proud of. It cannot be disputed that the democratically elected government has built a good foundation during these first 18 years of freedom. From this foundation, we can and should work together to sustain the momentum that we have achieved in this House over the past 15 years.
IsiXhosa:
Ngaloo mazwi sithi eMpuma Koloni mayikhule ingakhokhobi iNCOP, kuninzi ekulindeleke kuyo. Siyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [With this, from the Eastern Cape, we are saying the NCOP must grow and prosper, as there is a lot that is expected from it. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mr J J GUNDA
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Mr M PETER (Eastern Cape)
Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, premiers, colleagues, it is a golden opportunity to stand here today, celebrating the 15th anniversary of the NCOP. As the House of the provinces, we are indeed married to our provinces. We represent our provinces in this House. We are also the House where local government has representation. This is the House where we bring the issues from our own constituencies and where we are expected to effectively resolve these issues.
The NCOP has achieved a lot in its 15 years of existence. However, the challenge is still there to market this institution so that the ordinary South Africans, especially the rural people, can understand the purpose of this House.
We, as the NCOP, had a workshop on marketing the NCOP through the electronic media and newspapers. But I've got news for us. If one watches the View of the House every morning, 85% is about the NA. What about the NCOP? That is wrong!
The NCOP deals with more direct issues with the local municipalities than the NA. We need to address and solve this issue. That is why I'm standing here today saying to each and every member, it is time for us to speak up for our constituencies because we are responsible for ensuring that they get service. We must bring up the issues. That is why we've got select committees and we have changed our programme. We have two weeks of oversight every term, so that they must understand the issues of our constituencies in our provinces, and people must know this is the upper House. It is very important to understand it.
Let me say this before I close – we are proud to be Members of Parliament in the NCOP. We will drive and strive for our provinces and for the needs of our communities to be heard. Let me quote the words of Charles Lindbergh:
Success is not measured by what a man accomplishes but by the opposition he has encountered and the courage with which he has maintained the struggle against overwhelming odds.
Let me quote another man, Albert Pine. He said:
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J L MAHLANGU (MPUMALANGA)
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Mr J J GUNDA
Mr J L MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the Council, hon colleagues, hon Premier, Minister and Deputy Ministers, comrades and friends, allow me to go down memory lane. Indeed I should start by conveying our sympathies to the Chief Whip of the Council on the passing on of her husband.
As the Chinese philosopher Lao-Tzu says, "a journey of a thousand miles starts with one step." The National Council of Provinces is a living example of an organisation that has embarked on such a journey.
It was and still is not an easy journey. This was a journey never traversed before by anyone or any institution. It was a lonely journey, a dangerous journey and a journey of great uncertainty.
It was a courageous journey by those who were part of its initiation.
I remember several visits that were undertaken to Europe to go and try to find an existing system elsewhere in the world. While some close examples were found in countries like Germany, there wasn't one exactly like this one.
It became incumbent upon the "midwives" of our Constitution to find a niche for this House to occupy. The best example of this concept is found in the Northern Sotho language, and the Premier of Limpopo will forgive me if I say it wrong. There is a saying that says "Re šila re hlatlegile". Its literal translation means that you make a fire, put a pot containing water on it, and while the water is in the process of heating, it is only then that you grind the corn and immediately pour it in the pot when the water is boiling. That is how you cook; you do everything simultaneously. That is what the NCOP had gone through.
After its constitution, because there was no clarity on the journey to be traversed, many opinion-makers were asking whether it was necessary for this House to exist.
Presidents Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela and Thabo Mbeki came into this Chamber and encouraged us to find our way, as they were confident that this House has an important role to play in the political and developmental landscapes of our country - we needed to find a solid ground for our feet because the journey was there to be undertaken.
At that time, as members of this House, we tried very hard to emulate the National Assembly without success. The former member, Mr Motsuenyane, the veteran of this House would say "we were students of hard knocks."
On a day like this we should remember the stalwarts of our democracy, some of whom are now deceased. The first and second Deputy Presidents of the then Senate, Mr Kobie Coetzee and Oom Gov walked their path, and the remaining path is for us to travel on.
During the second term of this House when hon Mbeki was President and the current President uNxamalala was Deputy President, they would both visit this House occasionally to address the country on matters of national importance that were affecting provinces and municipalities, including traditional leadership issues. The then Deputy President uNxamalala loved this House because he used to call it the House of reason and a peaceful House.
The mandate of this House, as already been said by my other colleagues, is a very important one. It is supposed to mobilise reasoning in a co-operative manner, because South Africa converges in this House, as it is constitutionally understood, in a co-operative manner within all spheres of government.
The 1996 Constitution introduced co-operative governance and thus put the NCOP at the centre of co-operative governance in all spheres of government, involving the national, provincial and local governments.
Taking Parliament to the People is one such niche initiative that has put this House at the centre of intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance. We believe that it is a model from which democracies across the world could learn and emulate.
We must also commend the current Presidency, both the President and his Deputy, for continuing to support and attending these outreach oversight initiatives.
There is a need for the NCOP to take this and other related processes to a higher level. The optimal use of technology to engage is one important area that has not been given enough attention between the spheres of government, legislatures and municipalities, including the public.
We also need to take oversight to another level. We are continually confronted with complaints from communities about poor and inadequate service delivery, and from time to time we appear helpless.
Over the past seven years, it has been estimated that there have been close to 400 protests that have taken place. Side by side with the service delivery protests are complaints of corruption. My view is that these complaints are a call for an oversight body like this one to rise to the occasion. I strongly believe that in those municipalities where the separation of powers could be initiated, we have to encourage that so that we can facilitate oversight mechanisms.
The country has set itself a goal for the year 2014 - to achieve clean audits at all levels. The role of the NCOP is at the centre of this responsibility. The Millennium Development Goals targets that are calling on countries to up their performances on reversing the social ills that are facing the world have most targets set for 2015.
The extent to which our country collectively responds to this can best be dealt with in a body like the NCOP. With challenges in education, health, unemployment, crime and corruption, and underdevelopment in rural areas, our journey is cut out for us.
On a day like this we remember those who were part of this institution and have taken a permanent break – they have passed on. Amongst them are Oom Govan Mbeki, Wilton Mkwayi, Ntate [Mr] Makgothi, Joyce Kgoali, Winkie Direko, Prof Mchunu and many others. May their souls rest in peace!
We must, in the same breath, express appreciation of those who have participated in the relay of leading this institution up to date, amongst them, hon Patrick Lekota, madam Naledi Pandor, the late madam Joyce Kgoali, and the current Chairperson, Mr Mninwa Mahlangu and all deputies, premiers of provinces, the Chief Whips of the Council, permanent and special delegates, support staff, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, the media and civil society.
Fifteen years down the line we can recite a poem by Chris, which says:
Happy 15th Anniversary!
Some flowers for you.
A rose for every year,
Many smiles for every tear.
Way more of the first than ever of the latter.
What's deep in our hearts is all that really matters.
We have learned a lot,
Yet still a lot to learn.
For that smile in your eyes my heart still yearns.
Keep giving me a chance to show you my love.
I've always found a way to rise above.
We know what we have and we have made it so far.
We often tell each other just how lucky we are to have what we have.
When we look in their eyes, we both know we have been given the ultimate prize.
A family that cares and can say how they feel;
there is no doubt that such a family is real.
It is a life full of haste that is crazy sometimes,
but I can honestly say that these are the best of times.
I would do it again in a minute, no doubt.
You have in your hearts what I can call "live without".
These 15 years have been so special to me. I now think that I can see what everyone else can see.
Happy anniversary and so be it!
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr K A SINCLAIR
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Aug 2012,"Take 181 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
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Mr J L MAHLANGU
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, there is no doubt about the important role that the NCOP has played since its inception as a very clearly defined second Chamber of the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa. It was and, indeed, is an important tool to assist in the drive to build an effective, sustainable and transparent democracy.
This nexus of national, provincial and local spheres of government is an important and necessary constitutional role-player to enhance co-operative governance and oversight of the three spheres. The current Chairperson, leadership, Secretary and officials must be credited for what has been achieved.
Most important is the fact that the NCOP has not become a rubber stamp for the executive to force through legislation. Recent examples can be quoted - the Protection of State Information Bill and the Traditional Courts Bill.
However, given the time limitations, it's necessary to raise a few important issues. The first one is the cost-effectiveness of oversight. This was referred earlier by a number of speakers and I want to reiterate the importance with which we must manage what I usually call the `stampede of oversight'. National, local and the provincial levels all want to do oversight. I think it's necessary to manage that in terms of outcomes. Linked to that is the impact of the committee reports and the recommendations in terms of section 100 and section 139 interventions.
Many of the disasters that we're experiencing at the moment can also be linked to the fact that there's no clarity about various spheres of government. The hon Deputy Minister referred to the NCOP as sometimes being the dumping ground of political parties.
I don't want to think of this House as an afterthought, but it's necessary to define the roles and responsibilities of the members of this specific House.
Reference was made today to the uniqueness of this House. If one can just relate to the name, the National Council Of Provinces, it clearly indicates that we don't encapsulate all the role-players. In terms of that and given the fact that this House is a combination of the three spheres of government, it is necessary that we must engage on the debate to determine if it is an upper House, lower House or an equal House with the National Assembly.
To this end, I think it's necessary that we must reconsider, in an open and honest debate, the whole issue about the name of this House. In many instances, people refer to this House, the NCOP, as an inferior House. The reasons for that can be uncovered. We can look at the name and reconsider the original name which was used then, the Senate.
There are many other issues and questions that can be raised such as: Is the legislative cycle sufficient?I Is the link between the NCOP, the legislatures and local government clear enough? What institutional and legal reforms are necessary? Do we have enough permanent delegates? What are the roles of the Ministers and members of the executive councils, MinMecs, and the other intergovernmental relations organisations?
But most important is the fact that we can't allow this House to be regarded as an inferior House. I think that under the leadership of hon Mahlangu specifically, we managed to stop that negative perception. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C MATHALE (LIMPOPO PREMIER)
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Mr K A SINCLAIR
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The PREMIER OF LIMPOPO(Mr C MATHALE): Thank you, House Chairperson. [Interjections.] It is in Marikana! [Laughter.]
Chairperson of NCOP, Comrade Mahlangu, the Deputy Chairperson, the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the Deputy Minister of Education and hon members, for one hundred years now, the people of this country have been involved in a struggle to ensure that every person counts and that every person has a voice. For 15 of those 100 years, the NCOP has been in place, furthering the cause of the people's voice from a provincial point of departure. With the NCOP in full effect, no province has been left unnoticed.
Mandated by the Constitution, the NCOP has the duty to facilitate public participation and involvement in the legislative and other processes of committees. The NCOP is responsible for ensuring that all spheres of government, including the people, are on the same page, working together towards the one goal of securing a truly democratic, non-racial and non-sexist society.
In 2010, the NCOP came to our province of Limpopo in the Sekhukhune District Municipality to roll out its Taking Parliament to the People programme. With Sekhukhune being a mining district facing all the common and unique challenges of a mining community, the residents of that community were all too glad to share their challenges with the NCOP, knowing all too well that through this forum the plight of all mining communities in Limpopo would be taken care of.
The NCOP and members of the community were able to discuss matters pertaining to service delivery, including accessible roads and transport; water and sanitation; promotion of skills and job opportunities; safety and security; housing; decent health care; and quality education.
Therefore, as members of the most revolutionary and progressive movement, the ANC, we are proud of the NCOP that listens to its constituencies and present those views to a larger audience. We are proud of the NCOP that pays attention to the specific needs of the specific provinces. We are proud of the NCOP that plays its fundamental role as enshrined in the Constitution. We see the NCOP as a custodian of our Constitution. We are also proud of the NCOP that assist democratic institutions, including Parliament, to comply with their constitutional obligations. The NCOP must make sure that, at all given times, the executive and the NA do not short-circuit the constitutional obligations as outlined.
Where there is a need for the NCOP to put its foot down, it must do so, informed by the objective realities of what is presented before it, without fear or favour. Through the NCOP, we are well aware that all voices will be heard. No community will be left without representation. All provinces will be equally respected and all citizens of this country will participate in the dynamic force that is South Africa.
The NCOP has been a trusted platform that offers Members of Parliament a second opportunity to engage on proposed legislation. Throughout its history of existence, the NCOP has always ensured that it consults broadly on various issues affecting our people, including draft legislation. The NCOP must be supported in order to continue meeting the expectations of our people. The process of building a truly democratic state that continues respecting the fundamental rights of all rests on our collective and individual shoulders as members of the NCOP.
We have closed the chapter where Parliament's structures oppress the masses of our people. Now we must jointly strengthen every effort that is aimed at entrenching our democratic values and principles. Together we came of age, and we must march forward motivated by our resolve to make the living conditions of our people better than before.
Once more, happy 15th anniversary to the NCOP! We look forward to many more years of quality leadership, and robust and frank engagements with the institution. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Cllr F Maboa-Boltman (SALGA)
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Mr C MATHALE (Limpopo)
Cllr F MABOA-BOLTMAN (Salga): Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta - if he is still here - my boss, the hon Premier of Limpopo Ntate Mathale, hon Deputy Minister of Basic Education, hon Members of Parliament and members of provincial legislatures, distinguished and invited guests, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Today marks a historic occasion in the relatively short lifespan of the NCOP as an institution. I must congratulate the Council, led by hon Baba Mahlangu, for the tremendous contribution and strides made towards enhancing the voices from below in the national discourse. Of course, I am including everybody who played a part since its inception.
Indeed, as we celebrate 15 years of the NCOP, we recently held the first-ever Local Government Week aimed at placing local government at the centre of national dialogue at parliamentary level. I was very happy when it was mentioned by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and by uBaba Mahlangu. This event proved once more that there can be no more fitting platform than the NCOP as a vehicle for the achievement of participatory democracy and co-operative governance, where debates are aimed at achieving consensus on policy between various spheres of government.
The Local Government Week is here to stay. Through it, we must ensure that the spheres of government support each other and pool resources to maximise our impact. As the SA Local Government Association, Salga, we remain committed to continuous and more meaningful engagement with the NCOP and provincial legislatures to achieve this.
In more direct terms, the NCOP is and remains the most relevant institutional mechanism for harmonising the interests of national, provincial and local government. Through the NCOP, national government is sensitised to provincial and local interests which, in turn, enriches the legislative processes. By bringing national, provincial and local government together in partnership, this House ensures that the concerns and aspirations of the people we serve find expression in our policies and laws.
Most certainly, over these first 15 years, there have been many harsh truths and challenges. We have had to confront instances where the people's concerns have been overlooked in the policy-making process, much to our cost. In other instances we have seen that the final product, which is the legislation that emerges from Parliament, is impoverished because the kind of co-operation between legislatures and executives demanded by the Constitution has not happened.
However, Chairperson, I believe these are part of the valuable lessons the first 15 years have taught us as we went through the teething problems of a new institution. We are richer for it and must ensure that in the years ahead we forge stronger collaboration and partnerships in the NCOP processes.
Having said that, as we pause and reflect, as stated in Robert Frost's famous poem ... I am not going to say it; the way hon Mahlangu recited it earlier on was so poetic and I enjoyed that. We cannot be accused of having taken the easy road. As he reflects on "the road not taken" in his own walk, we can boldly say that we took the road less travelled, the difficult co-operative route, with the firm belief that our efforts will ultimately yield a positive difference in the lives of our people.
Organised Local Government has been part of the NCOP family for the past 15 years and has observed the growth of this critical institution in our democratic dispensation.
As Salga, we have committed ourselves to greater participation in the NCOP and its committees, in spite of the challenges we face as full-time leaders in our municipalities because we truly appreciate being part of this co-operative partnership with the NCOP and firmly believe in the principles of co-operative governance which guide us.
The recent development of dedicating a House Chairperson for co-operative government and intergovernmental relations, IGR, is to be heartily welcomed. We look forward to working with hon Magadla as we strive towards a coherent government by supporting each other in establishing collaborative approaches and building on the good work we have started. We have much work to do in the years ahead.
As I conclude, Chairperson, we can confidently say that the first 15 years of the NCOP marks only the beginning of the vital role this Council can and will play in forging closer co-operative governance and realising our constitutional ideals in the decades to follow. The first 15 years and the contribution of this Council to our collective gains leave much to be celebrated and we are privileged to share this landmark with you.
I congratulate the NCOP and wish that we continue to assist each other and celebrate together all the achievements we have achieved.
Before I conclude, I just want to join others in offering words of condolences to the Chief Whip on the loss of her husband. On behalf of Salga, I just want to indicate that our souls and prayers will be with them through these hard times.
Congratulations NCOP. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms R KASIENYANE
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Aug 2012,"Take 184 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-184] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Cllr F MABOA-BOLTMAN
Ms R KASIENYANE (North West): House Chairperson, hon Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, esteemed members of the NCOP, all delegates, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, the hon Premier of Limpopo, hon SA Local Government Association, Salga, representative, I also join my colleagues in expressing my condolences to the hon Ntwanambi on the death of her husband. We wish her well.
It is with a privilege and honour to participate in the debate on the 15th anniversary of the National Council of Provinces and what it means for South Africans. Section 43(a) of the Constitution vests the legislative authority of the national sphere of government in Parliament. In terms of section 42(1) of the Constitution, Parliament consists of two Houses, the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces. Whilst the NA is elected to represent the people and ensure government by the people under the Constitution, the NCOP represents the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government.
Under our Constitution the government derives its authority and legitimacy to rule from the people. Elections do not give public representatives a five-year licence to do what they like and come back at the expiry of that period to seek another mandate to do as they please. That is why the Freedom Charter says that no government can claim authority unless it is based on the will of the people. The 1994 democratic breakthrough opened the door for the people of South Africa as a whole, both black and white, to elect a government of their choice. The ANC enriched the democratic culture by making democracy both representative and participatory.
As the ANC, we noted the need for the legislatures to exercise their oversight responsibility more comprehensively, by holding government departments and other organs of state accountable for both financial and nonfinancial performance. It further notes the role of Parliament in ensuring that it passes legislation that furthers the transformation of all state institutions, including Parliament itself.
We note that there are three years remaining before we reach the 2015 target for achieving the eight Millennium Development Goals, MDGs. Parliament plays a major role in overseeing the country's progress towards achieving the MDG goals. In this respect, our oversight should intensify over the next few years and also ensure that government departments report on progress made, and that it is reflected in their respective budget allocations.
The MDGs are, of course, not mutually exclusive from South Africa's own development targets such as universal access to basic services, including sanitation. This, of course, means that Parliament should further strengthen its oversight support to committees, not only to ensure that targets are met, but also that socially vulnerable groups, including women, the youth and people with disabilities benefit from access to job creation opportunities, improving the skills base and supporting small businesses. The concentration on job creation is important because it highlights an urgent and fundamental transformation of a variety of interconnected political and socioeconomic issues.
The fundamental role of the NCOP is nation-building, legislation and oversight. Through its committees it should participate in the strengthening of representative and participatory democracy, legislation processing and ensure sound public finance management. Our oversight model requires the establishment of mechanisms and processes for increased effective oversight. We need to foster increased co-operation, working together with other spheres of government to ensure the socioeconomic upliftment of our people.
The ANC's manifesto endorses the principle of accountability and the oversight role of deployed members of the ANC to accelerate service delivery in order to create a better life for all South Africans. The work of public representatives needs to focus on strengthening the linkages between the people and their elected representatives.
Public participation remains a process through which different sectors within our communities can exchange views and influence decision-making. We must commend the legislatures on this aspect because members of the NCOP have moved from one area to the other, educating our communities about their rights, including the right to petition the legislatures about any issue in their areas. As such, this has resulted in the legislatures receiving many petitions from our communities.
The NCOP must continuously act as a bridge between the three spheres of government and therefore has a responsibility to participate in all activities that ensure that national government responds to the challenges faced by provinces.
As the ANC, we note some improvement on both the negotiating and financial mandates fronts at that level. Our permanent delegates to the NCOP are members of the legislatures, and have a responsibility to represent those legislatures and raise issues affecting the province they represent at the national level.
In conclusion, in building a people-centred Parliament, the NCOP should develop programmes geared towards educating the public about the various parliamentary processes. It should also sensitise the public to how legislative processes are carried out and how people on the ground can contribute meaningfully through public submissions, and so on.
We wish the Council well in its endeavours. Congratulations to the previous leadership and members as well as the present members. Have a happy 15th anniversary! I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr R J TAU
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Aug 2012,"Take #185#[National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-185] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Ms R KASIENYANE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chairperson, I must say upfront that it is a pity that when we reflect on and celebrate this period, one of us is mourning. May God be with her and let us wish her all the necessary strength.
House Chairperson, Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, the Premier of Limpopo in absentia, I must confess that it was quite a journey to be taken through by the hon Deputy Minister of Basic Education, hon Surty. I can understand that, during that period, I could not even imagine myself being a Member of the NCOP when you, the hon Mahlangu and others, were busy grappling with these things. Listening to you was a great lesson to me.
One must start by dealing with issues and borrowing from hon Pretorius who characterised the NCOP as a child that has turned 15 years old; the NCOP is a teenager. The way I was brought up, I got to understand that, on one's birthday, everybody is happy and we celebrate. Two days or a week later, your parents will call you and tell you how they have brought you up until you became 15 years old. They will be happy for you, but will tell you the things they think you need to improve on as you move forward to your 16th year.
Unfortunately, an honourable member of this House, hon Van Lingen, did not do that. Instead of celebrating the 15 years of the NCOP's existence and its role, she was highly critical of the NCOP. That, to me, really raised a very seriously worrying point in a sense that, the minute you start criticising your child on his or her birthday, how will your child move forward and become a better person? You can't do that! Improvement will just be impossible because it will never happen.
I want to borrow from hon Gunda when he said that it was important for us to ensure that everybody understands the role of the NCOP. How can a person in the rural area understand the role and character of the NCOP if we, Members of the NCOP, do not even understand the character of the institution and do not even make an effort to understand it? We are a Council that represents the interests of provinces but the hon Van Lingen, who is from the Eastern Cape, stands here in front of us and talks about the Western Cape. She does not even reflect on the challenges that her province is facing. She does not even speak about the issues of her province and utilise this institution to profile them to a point. By so doing, she misses an important point.
We have two Deputy Ministers here. If the hon Van Lingen had used the platform to profile the interest of her province, they would have at least received the attention of the two Deputy Ministers. She has missed that opportunity. She focused on party-political issues and lost the entire intention of this House and, in particular, this institution.
Hon Pretorius warned and cautioned us. I want to take pride in having listened to him very carefully because he has a wealth of history. He was the first Secretary of the institution. He said that this institution has become a duplicate of the National Assembly. Unfortunately, hon Pretorius, the people or members who have turned this House into a duplicate of the National Assembly, whether through questions, statements, and Budget Votes, are the members of your party. We have constantly raised issues to say that we should not do what the National Assembly is doing because we are not the National Assembly. We were born with a particular mandate and character. Therefore, our deeds cannot be the same of those of the National Assembly. If we were to be tested today, the result would not be 99,9% positive or compliant to the National Assembly.
Therefore, I appeal to all political parties to appreciate the fact that this House is a unique and strategic House, meant to create space for us to represent our provinces in dealing with all matters that concern them.
We can never – the Constitution has said it – mislead South Africans out there. Our provinces are not the South African states. There is one South African state. Therefore, the NCOP cannot be seen to be advancing an argument that seeks to give more powers to provinces against the spirit of the Constitution that defines the South African state. It would not be fair for us to be challenged as the NCOP to be in a position to advance that particular cause as proposed by the hon Pretorius.
I must then reflect on some of the highlights, hon members. As the NCOP, we have evolved quite extensively. If one looks at the nature and configuration of our committees, from the time when the institution was established, and how these committees do their work, I think there is a positive evolution. We have strengthened our oversight work and role in provinces ever since, even in this particular era of Parliament. As a result, we came to a point where we were able to persuade the institution to adopt having a quarterly dedicated oversight week in the programme of the NCOP. That is an important highlight for us to look at.
We have also seen a serious positive evolution in relation to the role of SA Local Government Association, Salga, or Salga's participation in the NCOP not only at the level of the House, but also at the committee level in the institution. That, on its own, is a positive instrument that we need to pride ourselves on as members of this House looking at the 15 years of our existence.
One of the key instruments that we have also used effectively in order to enhance or better our work on oversight is our provincial weeks. As the NCOP, we have dedicated two weeks per annum where we go back to our provinces; look at the issues that our provinces are challenged with; come back to the NCOP to debate these issues; and invite members of the executive to be part of these debates. We have seen positive spin-offs out of this kind of a programme. Taking Parliament to the People, for instance, from the conceptual point to date, one can see a radical shift in the manner in which we are doing our work. Previously, we used to visit provinces and just listen to people and promised them to come back.
There is now a clear programme of previsits by committees. These previsits give us an idea of the kind of challenges that a province is faced with even before we go to a province. The challenges will have already been communicated to the executive. By the time we arrive in a province, not only will we be listening to our people raising issues with us, but we will be responding to some of the issues raised. That is a positive element.
As we speak today, hon members, following an issue that was brought to the NCOP by the Free State transportation committee, we are looking at the possibilities of amending the Cross-Boarder Road Transport Act of 1998 in order to resolve the problems of the taxi operators in the Free State.
It is for that reason that I say we should appreciate this House, use it effectively and ensure that our participation is appreciated, especially, by ensuring that our provinces participate effectively during the debates, questions sessions and oversight programmes that we have drawn as a House.
Let us all celebrate and say happy birthday to the NCOP, even though there is nothing that suggests or indicates that we are celebrating 15 years of existence. The House looks like it does on normal sitting days when we are debating any other issue in the House. Thank you very much! [Applause.]
Mr M J MAHLANGU
Mr R J TAU
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 Sep 2012,"Take 186 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,28 Aug 2012,"[Take-186] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][gs].doc"
Mr R J TAU
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The first question I got was actually from the provincial Whip from the Eastern Cape, hon Rantho. She wrote me a note: "Chairperson, where is the cake and the champagne?" And now, hon Tau and other members are repeating that. If you had reminded me in the morning, I would have asked the Secretary whether the budget would allow it. However, we will see what we can do, although, I think many people would be gone by that time. However, let me do this, because time is marching on. People have been here for a long while, and some want to catch their flights.
Let me say the members were honest in their assessment. Thank you very much for that. We have had people who have been here for many years sharing their experiences, such as the hon Deputy Minister Surty and hon J L Mahlangu; hon Loretta, in the gallery, was also a member of this House and many other people who were not present today.
To Mr Pretorious, who started as an official here, I have just a short remark with regard to your comments. Thank you for everything you have said, but Professor de Vos was commenting or critiquing an article which was published by Cape Argus in which they did not quote the Minister correctly. I have the correct Hansard. I have asked the staff to check quickly. That is the speech that the late Minister Shiceka delivered in this House on 2 September 2010. You can get a copy of the Hansard and read it.
The Minister was actually raising questions which were brought about by the celebration of the 10th anniversary of the NCOP. We were asking ourselves and the members of the civil society some questions. For example, this is what Mr Shiceka asked: Does the NCOP, as a structure, fulfil what is expected of it? Is the NCOP really representing the interests of the provinces? Those were the critical questions he asked in the debate. We had invited everybody and we were trying to answer those questions.
Today, as I started the debate, I, once again, put that question: What have we done in the last 15 years? I wanted you to respond by checking for yourself at any place of work where you work, whether you are a public representative or a civil servant. What you have to do is to rate yourself. It is very important to say ``I have come or run this distance, I have won this and I still have to do this.'' I just wanted to correct that, but most of the things you have said are correct. However, you can get a copy of the Hansard from our office. I have got one now; I can give it to you if you want.
Generally, when the NCOP does whatever it does, whether it is in the House or out there - we have taken the House out - it is not just a question of interacting with the people, but also of educating our people. I am sure you have realised from the provincial, national and municipal levels that there is a lot of information that we need to share with our people from day to day on things like how they can access services from government whether it is at local, provincial, and national government level, and how government functions. These are the issues that we should raise and educate them about when we walk or move around in our constituencies during public participation. We must also inform them about these things. That is very important. Information empowers the people that we are leading.
Mrs Kasienyane spoke about representative democracy. That is a very crucial statement. When you speak about representative democracy, it means you are participative. When you are a representative, you represent somebody; you speak on his or her behalf. You translate what those people would have translated if they had been there. The question is: Do you do that in a participatory way? The people that we represent must, at a certain stage, also participate. It doesn't matter in which way they participate, whether we are talking to them personally, sending SMSs, chatting on Twitter or e-mailing them. But there must be participation between the people that we are representing and ourselves. Hence, somebody said it is time that we perhaps should also use information and communication technology. We have an ICT guru here, hon Mokoenyana. I know he can teach us a lot on ICT. It is very important that we remember these things and do them.
Hon Zulu, when we move around the provinces, particularly during the Provincial Week and we experience a problem where the MECs and premiers do not want to meet with us, we should raise those problems. I haven't experienced that in my province and I haven't had a problem, particularly during the Provincial Week. Usually, the premier meets with us with a team of MECs and we engage with them. On Friday the premier will be there with the team of MECs and the MECs join us when we do the oversight function in the field. Then on Friday, when we wrap up our work and report back, the premier and the MECs will be there. When we experience these problems, let us report them. I promise you that when you raise these problems, I will take them up with the premiers and I am sure they will participate in future.
I would also like to go back to the issue that was raised by Mr Sinclair and Mr Pretorious. The issue is not about the oversight of the NCOP, - you spoke about the oversight and somebody spoke about oversight stampede – was it Mr Sinclair? The issue there is co-ordination. I think there should be better co-ordination between the two Houses. That is where the problem is. We are co-ordinating better with the provinces. I think there isn't better co-ordination between the two Houses of Parliament. It is true that as long as we do not co-ordinate our work properly, there will be an oversight stampede and things will not go right. Do not forget that provinces also have to do their work. We cannot be on their doorsteps every day, asking them to do X, Y and Z. The more we co-ordinate with them, the better it is for the two Houses. They can join us and we can work better. We should critique ourselves and find a way of doing things together.
We release all our reports, whether we are doing oversight or going to the provincial visits and we request all special delegates to come and participate when we debate these reports in the House so that they can tell us what has happened since we left, what is happening and what will happen and what are the plans. We benefit quite a lot from the special delegates who come here.
Let me tell you that some of the MECs are actually doing sterling work after we have visited their provinces because they take things very seriously. Some of the mayors and the councillors also do sterling work. Perhaps, for a few years, they had not been taking things seriously, but it is our job, as public representatives, to do follow up all the time and sort out the things and make sure that they are done.
Mr Peter - is he still here or is he gone? You raised the issue of public hearings, that at times they are short. You are quite right. We have discussed that matter many a times and we have said that when a Bill is controversial, we should not rush the Bill. Let the people rather ask for an extension and we have granted that. We have given many provinces, which have said this is a controversial Bill, an extension. Mr Tau will come to us as presiding officers and we will say this is a controversial Bill; it has attracted the interest of the people and we are asking for an extension of about two or three weeks. We will then examine that and allow it, because we also know that the Bill is controversial. We would not stick to the cycle of six weeks. However, do not just sit on the Bill and ask for an extension for the sake of asking for an extension. It must be a Bill that is really controversial; then we will consider that.
I would like to thank Mr Borman. Hon Minister, you participated in the Local Government Week. For the first time since I have been the Chairperson of this House, I can say that we have made a breakthrough with Salga. [Applause.] During the Third Parliament we had been speaking and speaking but nothing happened. Now we have made a breakthrough. As you can see, a senior member of Salga is in this House, debating with us and will go to the NEC to take up what we have debated with the NEC. This is going to be an annual event. We are going to have the Salga week every year. We want to take it even further and see if we cannot, together with them, be on the ground and deal with these issues.
It is unfortunate that when we had a debate the Minister could not make it; she was involved in other activities of government. I even said, perhaps we need to go down on the ground and take those municipalities from - what do you call that lowest thing? - not the disclaimer. What is it? It's lower than the disclaimer; it's called adverse. You have to take them from the adverse level to the disclaimer stage, then to qualified, and lastly to unqualified, and no matters of emphasis stages. In other words, all those municipalities that are in – what do you call that ward where they keep very sick people - ICU, you must take them from the ICU to the ward so that the doctor can attend to them there, and when they are better they can be discharged, but must still take their treatment. Those are the things that we will follow up on and do to make sure that our municipalities are healthy.
My last word, before you ask me to sit down, in my entire leadership, in all the structures I have ever led, when things are very difficult and tough, when the way does not seem to be clear, that is the time I become more positive. This is cecause I know that it is not the beginning of the sunset but the beginning of the dawn. All of us, as public representatives, should have that idea in our minds, because that is what we should do. When a leader despairs, loses courage when things are difficult, then he is just as good as being no leader. When you are the father of the family and a lion enters your house and you do not take your spear and fight, but run away, leaving your wife and children, then you are no father. You are not worthy of being a father. [Applause.] You have to work hard and make sure that you defend your family the right way.
We will defend this House. We will do everything possible in our power to do our best. We have done our best for the 15 years. I am very happy about the achievements we have. However, we still have challenges and we will fight to get those challenges out of our way. Those who critique us, saying we should die, they will see that we will live. We are not going to die as yet. We are here to live. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 16:56.
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