Hansard: Questions — President
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 12 Sep 2012
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
Thursday, 13 September 2012
Proceedings of the national assembly
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The House met at 14:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUESTIONS - PRESIDENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
Start of Day
Question 13:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mr Speaker, hon members, the election of Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma heralds a new era for the continent, as it is the first time that the AU Commission will be led by a woman. The AU, therefore, has affirmed its resolution to make this a decade for women. Minister Dlamini-Zuma has also made history by being the first chairperson from the SADC region. We congratulate her on her election.
Hon members, as a loyal member of the AU, South Africa will play its role and provide support to make the institution successful in its programmes of promoting unity, peace, stability, prosperity and democracy on the continent. Dr Dlamini-Zuma has identified some priorities for the continent during her tenure, in which we will support her, and they are: eradicating poverty and conflicts; building sustainable economies through infrastructure to promote intra-Africa trade, among others; consolidating democracy and good governance in our respective countries; promoting education, health, shelter and job creation; accelerating our integration in all spheres with regional economic communities, RECs, as the building blocks; and advancing and defending the interests of Africa in global affairs.
With regards to promoting economic development, there are some emerging positive trends that position Africa as the next big investment frontier over the next 50 years. Africa is the third fastest growing region after Asia and the Middle East. We will support the AU in taking advantage of these opportunities to further promote regional integration and the New Partnership for Africa's Development, Nepad
Currently, moves are afoot to ensure a successful integration of the Common Market of East and Southern Africa, Comesa, the East African Community and SADC, which bring together a market of more than 600 million people. With regards to infrastructure development, South Africa chairs the Nepad Presidential Infrastructure Championing Initiative.
We have been tasked with championing the North-South Road and Rail Development Corridor projects, which will extend from Cape Town and Durban to Cairo. Work will also continue to strengthen the co-operation of Regional Economic Communities to ensure success. At a political level we will play our role in promoting the voice of the continent in world affairs, and to eradicate interference in African affairs which we witnessed, particularly last year in the cases of Libya and or Côte d'Ivoire.
We will also assist with capacity-building and any other support the AU will require to achieve its objectives. Thank you.
Mnu B A RADEBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu B A RADEBE: Somlomo, angibonge uMongameli waseNingizimu Afrika ngempendulo enhle kangaka asinikeze yona. Okokuqala, siyizakhamuzi zaseNingizimu Afrika siyathokoza kakhulu ngeqhawekazi laseNingizimu Afrika elinjengoNkosazane Zuma, lo odume ngokuthi u"Mrs Fix it" uzokwazi ukuthi aye le ku-AU ayilungise. Ngoba ngempela ngempela iminyaka eminingi lapha izizwe zangaphandle bezizenzela nje lapha eNingizimu Afrika. Siyathokoza ukuthi futhi uhulumeni kaMongameli u-JZ uzoqhubeka weseke i-AU noKhomishana omusha uNkosazana Zuma.
Ngakho Mongameli, engithanda ukukubuza yilokhu: Siyazi ukuthi njengoba u-Comrade Nkosazane ekhulume ngokulwa nobuphofu, into yokuqala yokulwa nobuphofu wukuthi iNingizimu Afrika ne-Afrika yonkana kumele ikwazi ukudayisa izimpahla zayo ngaphandle. Siyazi ukuthi izinhlangano ezifana nabo-TTO nama-EU zicindezele amazwe amancane ase-Afrika ngokuthatha izinqumo ezingeke zibeke i-Afrika phambili. Ingabe umbuso waMongameli uzokwazi yini ukunikeza amandla ko-TTO ukuze kuliwe nabo-EU nawo wonke lawa mazwe anamandla ukuze i-Afrika ibe ngcono? Ngiyabonga.
UMONGAMELI WASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Lungu elihloniphekile, umkhankaso wokulwisana nalawa mabhange amakhulu azwelonke maqondana nokuthi azisebenzisa kanjani izimali emazweni amancane usunethuba uqhubeka. Sizowuqhuba-ke lowo mzabalazo, ikakhulukazi maqondana nokuthi uma kusizwa lawa mazwe amancane awangabekelwa imigomo elukhuni kakhulu eyenza ukuthi kwale mali ebiwusizo ijike isifana neketango eliboshelwe entanyeni kulawa mazwe amancane.
Sizoyilwa-ke leyo mpi kakhulu. Siyilwa futhi ngendlela yokuthi sithi kudingeka kube noshintsho ebuholini bawo la mabhange ngoba ukuthi bangabi bikho abantu abaqhamuka emazweni asathuthuka lapha ebuholini yikho kanye okwenza ukuthi izinqumo ezithathwayo zithathwa ngabantu abangayazi inhlupheko nabangazi ukuthi yiluphi usizo olufunekayo. Siyethemba-ke ukuthi kulowo mkhankaso sizobe sindawonye noSihlalo omusha we-AU. Ngiyabonga
Mr I O DAVIDSON
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
English:
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Mr Speaker, let us say from this side of the House that we congratulate and welcome the fact that Dr Dlamini-Zuma is now the Chairperson of the AU Commission, and we will pay appropriate tribute to her next week in the House I gather. My question to the President is this: if she is going to succeed - and we want her to succeed - we have to surround her with competent capable people who can do the job. The problem with that is that the salaries that are attached to the posts there are less than salaries that adequate people would earn in South Africa or maybe other African countries.
What are we going to do in that regard to make sure that she is appropriately empowered with staff? How can we do that when African countries as a whole are not actually contributing towards the AU budget, only 40% of the AU budget comes from African countries. And I would be very careful about fighting with the EU and other countries because the EU, America and, in fact, China contribute the other 60% of the AU budget.
So, what we have to do, and that is my other question to you, Mr President, is to fundamentally restructure the financing of the AU so that Africans make contributions to the governance of their continent, and we in South Africa have to lead in that context. In so doing we will empower Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma to actually play the role that she needs, and or we need her to play. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mr Speaker, I think the question asked by the hon member is absolutely important. It is one of the questions which I believe the new chairperson of the AU will work on; it is a question in many directions. Firstly, the fact that the AU, after so many years, in terms of the bigger percentage of its finances depends on the friends, so to speak, that limit the independence of the AU to take its own independent decisions. Certainly, because the people who holds the funds would pull the strings somehow or the other as the hon member is indicating; that is one of the issues that this new chair must address. And, when she addresses those issues she certainly needs the support of all of us. It starts from remunerations, but more importantly, the funds that would help the AU to carry out the programmes of the continent.
There are some examples of difficulties that she has already discovered. For example, why is it that in other areas Africa could not move quicker in dealing with the challenges of the continent? Precisely because if those donors or supporters don't want the AU to intervene in a different kind of approach and they want their own approach then they could say that Africa cannot use their money for this approach or that one.
That is one of the challenges that the AU must work on and in fact develop an independent fund for. We must be able to deal with the countries that are not financing the organisation. That is one of the tasks that she will have to undertake, including the issue of the other countries, if that information is true, that they are not paying their own subscriptions. I think we should have a mechanism that must change the running of the organisation.
That is why, when we were campaigning we projected that we need change in the AU to transform it so that it can work to advance the interest of the African people on the continent. So, that is one of the critical issues that we will all have to support her on, because I think she is already thinking about those matters. Thank you.
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Mr Speaker, I am glad to hear that I am the Koornhof on your left. [Laughter.]
Hon President, the Reserve Bank announced earlier this week that South Africa's current account deficit is now the highest it's been in four years. That is because of subdued market conditions, especially in China and in Europe, which are our major trading partners. I think the hon President will agree with me in that we should trade more with Africa. Don't you think that it is time for the AU to implement a preferential trade tariff between African countries to assist our export market?
Let me explain why I am asking this, currently, we pay the same tariff as Europe or Chilli when they export their wine to Africa. So, there is no incentive for an African country, Kenya or Nigeria, to buy our wines. In order for the wine industry to be competitive starts by exporting in bulk. And by exporting 10 million litres of wine in bulk, we lose 107 jobs in this country. So, I hope that with the two Zumas on this continent now, you would get us the preferential tariffs so that we can trade easily. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon member's question was what he mentioned at the end – that is what he actually wanted to say. [Laughter.]
Well, as I indicated in the first part of my reply, Arica is aware of the problem. It is a historic problem that Africa was colonised, and each part of Africa is called a country, and it had a mother country and that mother country was very possessive with its colonies – all of them. It was only the mother country that dealt with its colony, and no one else. So, if you had countries in Africa that were neighbours and one was under Portugal and the other under French; they were not allowed to do any business together; until Africa decolonised itself from that system and changed it.
Therefore, you are now dealing with an Africa that is saying let us work together. That is why I talked about the integration of regions here which are economic regions. In addition, we are working on the infrastructure to connect Africa so that we can promote the intra-Africa trade. That is what Africa is doing and that is what the other Zuma is going to do to ensure that that programme is indeed implemented. Because, without that, even if we say today that Africa is growing faster, but without Africa trading within itself, it will be very weak.
I hope the leaders in Africa have appreciated that and we are therefore working very hard to ensure that we quicken that process. We can only quicken it by having infrastructures that connect us with land, air, sea or the huge lakes that we have. I think we would be supporting that particular Zuma on that programme.
Mr M HLENGWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 277
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M HLENGWA: Mr Speaker, Mr President, the Chairperson of the AU will be going to Ethiopia next month, has there been an indication, as the hon Davidson said, that some of the staff that she wants to take with her will have to take salary cuts? To ask a direct question, Mr President, can you confirm to this House, whether she has approached government for assistance in that regard; and if she has, what nature of assistance are you going to give to her so that she has the necessary staff to take with her to Ethiopia?
Secondly, we all know that the campaigning period for the chairmanship was very gruelling; to the extend that the election had to be repeated. What efforts does government have now to iron out the differences and the cleavages that were so visibly explicit in the campaign to ensure that the vision of the AU is not compromised; and to ensure that the new chairperson does not have difficult in executing her duties? Because, before she became the SADC candidate, she was, first of all, a South African and she needs us as South Africans to be behind her. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Mr Speaker, certainly, we should support the new chairperson, and I think we will deal with the reality of how we should support her as and when it comes. We should agree, generally, as this House, that if we need to support her in order for her to succeed in this important work, this House will support government to support her. I think that commitment is absolutely important, because we must support her. The mere fact that we have a person coming from here with clarity on what we need to do, because the resolution of the problems of the continent would, in fact, become the resolution of the problems of our country.
Therefore, I think there should be a general agreement that we will support her. However, we have to see what types of challenges she faces and what types of support she needs. I think I would be inclined to say that we should help.
With regard to the unity of the continent, I know that some people say that Africa is divided, particularly those who have time to write and imagine things. I am not sure how much they know about Africa because there is nothing that has gone wrong. In the first place, there was a democratic election having had a democratic campaig, I don't understand why if there is a campaign and people are contesting then people begin to say there is a fight! There is now erosion of relations. What else do you do in a democracy? Unless you say that democracy must be managed, having one person contesting and others keeping quiet. But the nature of democracy is that people should contest. It does not mean that by contesting they are then fighting. We contested with a number of countries in Africa as the Gabonese candidate was contesting; they crisscrossed the continent as we did.
We clearly put across the political objectives why we were saying we needed change, and how we needed the AU to operate differently so that we are more effective in dealing with matters. There is no country that we were at loggerheads with. We were actually discussing with them. We also challenged them to convince us; unfortunately, there was no argument that came from them to state why the other candidate was better than ours, and we were able to then advance.
That is why, through political persuasion on principles and objectives of the continent, we were able to win the majority. There was no disunity that was created. And I wish you were in the AU when she finally won, you would have realised how united the African continent was behind her. She has been accepted by all; even those who had contested came back and said they were very happy with that election. So, there is not much work that we have to do because there was no damage during election, those are just speculations of people who always think that they know better about Africa. [Applause.]
QUESTION 14
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 280
QUESTION 13
Question 14:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon members, no, the President has not instructed Ministers to provide funding and a budget for the Nkandla-Umlalazi Smart Growth Centre. The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is however supporting the Masakhane Rural Development Initiative with the detailed planning of the Nkandla Initiative.
The department developed the model of the smart centre which was put on exhibition at the United Nations Cop 17 Conference to showcase the concept of green development.
To date, no other national departments have made commitments to the delivery of facilities and infrastructure on the site. The smart centre is part of the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government's programme for the revival of small rural towns and the formalisation of rural unplanned towns and urban settlements. The towns include Ndumo, Manguzi, Msinga, Mbumbulu, Nkandla, Charlestown, Jozini, Ngwavuma, Dududu, Wineen and Colenso.
It is important to emphasise that even at the national level, Nkandla is not the only district that is receiving attention for rural development. There are actually 23 districts that have been identified by government for interventions due deep levels of poverty, scientifically established through thorough investigations.
In Masia in Limpopo, a multipurpose facility is being built. In Diyatalawa and Makholokoeng in the Free State, government is building community infrastructures such as schools, crèches, a community hall, solar geysers, housing, two clinics and a dairy. In Jacobsdal in the Free State, a multipurpose community complex is being planned. It will include a crèche and a village viewing area.
The upgrading of the Ratanang Stadium is under way. In Goedgedacht, in the Western Cape, we are building a rural leadership youth centre that will provide aftercare for small children and leadership for youth.
The Department of Rural Development is also in the process of purchasing an adjacent farm to develop, amongst others, a blacksmith museum and a tourist centre, a restaurant, a market and to develop an agri-village for the current farm residents.
In Beaufort West, in the Western Cape, sports and recreational facilities for the youth will be built.
In Mbashe, Eastern Cape, we are working with the local community and the traditional authority to develop a master plan for development projects, especially focusing on tourism and agriculture.
In Ludondolo in the Eastern Cape, the focus is on infrastructure development.
In July, I visited the area to assess progress with the building of the Dalibhunga Bridge in Mvezo and a 10 km access road that is currently under construction. The river valley catalytic project has also been started in the village.
In addition, land is being prepared for community agricultural practices.
The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is working with the Sekhukhune District Municipality in planning a rural node similar in size and scope to the Umlalazi-Nkandla Smart Growth Centre, for the Jane Furse township.
It is envisaged that this development will consist of government offices, a recreational park, schools, a crèche, a shopping complex, a clinic and sports facilities.
In Mayflower in Mpumalanga, we are revitalising the town through the provision of infrastructure such as a bridge, road paving and the upgrading of the sewer, amongst others.
In Dysselsdorp in the Western Cape, revitalisation projects include 10 sandbag houses, 90 rainwater harvesting tanks, a crèche, five renovated schools, an old age home as well as solar geysers to the homes.
In Witzenberg in the Western Cape, we are building a walkway and recreational area for the youth.
In addition, phase two is under way and includes the development of a community area and swimming pool, houses for older persons, a crèche and the upgrading of the sewer system.
The government is doing a lot more throughout the country even beyond the few districts I have mentioned.
It is a pity that only Nkandla seems to generate such interest.
I thank you. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 280
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, it has been widely reported that a total of R2 billion is going to be spent on building the Umlalazi-Nkandla Smart Centre, just three kilometres away from the hon President's homestead in Nkandla.
One billion rand of this amount is set to come from the government's coffers. Yet, within a 100 kilometre radius of Nkandla in places like Amasango amnyama, Ebizimali and Equdeni, there are still people who live without the most basic services like water and electricity.
Now, I hear the hon President talking about the rural development nodes, but we know that there have been reports of other government departments – departments like the Department of Agriculture - who have provided up to R800 million for this project. It is surprising that the hon President did not mention this in his reply. Can the President justify the spending of R2 billion in one area, one area, an area that just happens to be three kilometres away from his own homestead while other areas within a 100 kilometres in the province of KwaZulu-Natal are without the most basic services; and why was this area identified when others are so desperately in need? Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I hope the hon member could explain to me why people at Nkandla, three kilometres away from where Zuma stays, must starve. Why must they be isolated? Why should others who are in other areas be more important than those, are they different people? Should they be punished because they are neighbours to Zuma? I do not think so. I think it is not a correct approach.
Of the few areas that are well known as being poverty-stricken in the province of KwaZulu-Natal, is Nkandla and counting in Msinga and KwaNongoma. There are very few places and Nkandla is one of them. Why should it be ostracised and be made to suffer simply because Zuma comes from there. Zuma grew up in that poverty-stricken area. [Interjections.]
I do not think there can be a conference that seeks to decide which area development must to go to. Development goes to where it is supposed to go at a given time. That is why I gave a list of these areas that are throughout the country so that it can assist you. [Interjections.] It is not only one place; there are many, many other places. [Interjections.] No, there are many, many other places that are being attended to. Why should this one not be developed? Why, unless you explain to me that these people are condemned to remain in poverty forever, and that it is therefore wrong and a crime to happen to be a neighbour of somebody who could become a president some day. I would then understand your argument.
I think members of this House should be encouraged if development goes to the rural areas, irrespective of the area. That is what we want. We have created these particular programmes to assist people in the rural areas. I have counted the majority of provinces where there is rural development – where money is spent. The money will never be the same. We cannot say that it should be the same – we cannot apply the one-size-fits-all principle. The developments are not the same.
With regard to agriculture, agriculture is not supporting this centre. It is misinformation. Agriculture is supporting the rural agricultural development that is done by a huge community. That is what happened. It is not done only at Umlalazi-Nkandla. It is actually doing it in the Eastern Cape and in Mpumalanga. You do not talk about those, you instead pretend as though you do not know. The question is therefore very selective. That is what is happening, agriculture has not gone into that project, it deals with agriculture, which has helped the poor people. The have been some areas that produced surplus that has helped other poor people. That is the job of agriculture; that is what they must do. So there is nothing to question. We should actually be saying that we are so happy that we can see something happening – people receiving something. Absolutely. [Applause.]
Mr J J MC GLUWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 280
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J J MC GLUWA: Hon President, former President Nelson Mandela is from Qunu, and what we appreciate as a country is that no prejudice development took place there. We can say the same about ... [Interjections.] ... Idutywa where former President Mbeki hails from. Surely, Mr President, I am seeing R2 billion development in Nkandla as being your own personal fiefdom. [Laughter.]
Yes, Mr President you are talking about poverty-stricken areas, but I think you will agree with me that we must also prioritise them. In fact when we alerted the Deputy President in this House about the 70% of households in Mbashe Municipality, in the Eastern Cape, that do not have access to water and sanitation, his response to this House was: This is a tragedy. The size, Mr President, of Mbashe municipality is the size of a small European country. That is how big it is. Mr President, why is it that Mbashe is suffering and does not get the same kind of funds that are allocated to Nkanda, which is three kilometres from your residence?
You have mentioned places that are nodes. I am not too sure whether you have visited these places. There is very little development in these places compared to Zumaville.
Mr President, my question to you is: Are you not embarrassed by all of this? Tank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I will never be embarrassed with the development in the rural areas ... [Interjections.][Applause.] ... particularly at Nkadla where I grew up. You do not know, you just hear about Nkadla. You do not know how undeveloped that place is. In fact, it surprises me when people fight development in rural areas. That surprises me. I have just told you that some of the projects I am talking about are the same size as Nkandla. I have also told you that, in fact, if you deal with rural development, we have got to start somewhere. It goes both ways. At times people in areas ask for development, at times they are seen or at times study research.
There are many factors that lead to development of a particular area. You cannot say that you will develop all poor areas on the same day and at the same time. You have to begin somewhere. I am saying you go there because there are certain reasons that have led you to go there. [Interjections.] That is why we are counting these other areas. I have talked about underdevelopment at Nkandla. I am sure you never heard, even when I was standing here, that in my own home there was no tarred road for a long time. Nkandla is one of the areas that were scientifically researched to be poorer than many other areas that you have in mind. Why must it not be developed? [Interjections.] I am not embarrassed, but very happy that people who have never seen development before are going to see it. This is what we want and it must be extended to other areas. Thank you, Somlomo. [Speaker]. [Applause.]
Adv T M MASUTHA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: Was it parliamentary for the hon McGluwa to use the word Zumaville? Is it not insulting, and is that parliamentary language? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I will study the Hansard and come back to that.
Mrs C DUDLEY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 280
The SPEAKER
Mrs C DUDLEY: Mr President, personally, I like your generous spirit and your vision for development in rural areas, but it does get you into a lot of trouble. My question is whether any public participation has taken place regarding development in Nkandla. I was also going ask you if you will be rolling out developments on the scale of the Nkandla one. Perhaps, as you have said, there are things in the planning. How far are those plans to roll out similar developments? Will the South African public have an opportunity to make submissions regarding the plans on these projects?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I get into no trouble, my dear. No trouble at all. I don't know why you say I get into trouble. Developing that area does not give trouble to me; it makes me feel very proud. Absolutely. So, do not change it around.
First, I am talking about rural development. Its job is to develop rural areas, and I was counting these areas. And that is what it does. There are different processes in these different areas. As I was trying to help you even before you answer the question that there are reasons why they will go to a particular area. If you take this one, we are talking about Nkandla, the community has been involved. They have had meetings and have made suggestions. In fact, they were the ones who were calling for development. You may not even be aware that there was once a huge imbizo, a few years ago, in that area where people raised issues to government. You need development in these areas.
In a sense, government is responding to people who have said that they need development. There has been participation. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 280
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, just a bit of ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Just one Cope at a time, please. You have the floor, sir. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr P S SIZANI: Hon speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon President to refer to hon Dudley as ''my dear''? [nterjections.] [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. What is the next point of order? Continue.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, I just wanted to say that according to the list, hon Ramatlakane actually was quicker to the button than hon Sizane.
The SPEAKER: Hon member that is not a point of order. Please take your seat.
Mr P S SIZANI: Is it not through Comrade President that in fact the creation of a rural development department was the decision of the ANC in its comprehensive strategy to improve the conditions of rural people?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes it true because this organisation cares for the poor, particularly those in the rural areas. That is why this programme had to be created, and it is now being implemented. Is it absolutely true. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 15
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 281
QUESTION 14
Question 15:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the social cohesion and nation-building programme of the government and society is still on track. The tragedy should strengthen our resolve to build a better society than the one we have had. I appointed a commission of inquiry to establish the facts about what transpired in Marikana.
The terms of reference were gazetted yesterday. Work is ongoing to sort out the logistical arrangements to enable the commission to begin work very soon. Government continues to support families of all 44 people who were killed in Marikana through the Inter-Ministerial Committee led by Minister in the Presidency, Mr Collins Chabane.
We also acknowledge the support provided by religious leaders. Hon members, the tragedy has further highlighted the deepening levels of poverty, unemployment and inequality in our country and the frustrations that this generates. The reminder from the Marikana tragedy is that meaningful social cohesion will be achieved when we succeed in addressing socioeconomic inequality, poverty and unemployment. Our economy must grow and create more jobs to absorb the many unemployed and improve the standards of living. Meaningful economic transformation also has to be visible.
The finding of the Employment Equity Commission is that there is still a remaining gross underrepresentation of black people, women and people with disabilities in key areas of the labour market, for example in management, should worry all of us.
The Western Cape province in which we are meeting just now is said to be the worst performing province both in the public and private sector in respect of employing black people, both men and women. Together we must ensure that transformation takes root in order to promote economic and social development in our country.
Another lesson from Marikana is the need to accelerate the transformation of the mining sector and to strengthen the sector, which has been the backbone of our economy for more than a century.
The sector provides half a million direct jobs and a similar number of indirect jobs and is central to the country's developmental goals.
We should work together as government, labour, business, political parties and all stakeholders to promote the adherence to the Constitution and laws of the land in dealing with labour disputes in the mining sector.
The worker demands for better wages can and should be addressed within the country's labour relations framework. The illegal strikes, the incitement and intimidation will not assist workers; instead, it will make them and the country worse off. The Department of Labour and institutions under its control such as the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, stand ready to assist in mediating between the parties. Government is also continuously engaging mining companies to assess the implementation of the provisions of the Mining Charter to improve living conditions of workers.
In terms of the charter, companies are required to implement measures to improve the standard of housing and living conditions for mine workers. They must convert or upgrade hostels into family units, ensure one person per room and facilitate home ownership options for mine workers by 2014. We continue working with the sector to monitor progress through the Department of Mineral Resources.
Fortunately, hon members, we met recently at the social cohesion summit in Kliptown in Soweto. We agreed at the summit that we must build a caring and proud society based on the values enshrined in our Constitution, together. We must put our country first and defend South Africa from the opportunism that will set us back many years to come. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G J SELAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 281
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr G J SELAU: Hon Speaker, I thank the hon President for the well-thought response to this august House. The ANC supports you and remains committed to nation-building and the creation of a nonracial, non-sexist, prosperous and democratic society. Therefore nation-building and social cohesion remain part of this agenda. The ANC welcomes prompt intervention by the President for establishing the judicial commission of inquiry following the Marikana tragedy. The ANC further supports the freedom of association and the right to strike by workers, legally, as it is enshrined in the Constitution of our country, but we condemn violence and intimidation at all cost during these strikes.
The question is, hon President, is it not only proper for all of us to wait for the outcome of the inquiry instead of preempting? I thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I think it is very proper that we should wait for the commission of inquiry. It is absolutely important to note that a very big tragedy happened and we don't know the actual details. Therefore it is important to wait for the commission to establish facts and give a report and its recommendation. It is then that we can debate the matters from an informed position. I think that is the only correct way to do it.
If, in this country, we ''say let us find a solution to a problem'', whilst we are searching for the facts and, we begin to make our own comments that are in fact judgments about what has happened, I don't think it will assist this country in going forward. So, I totally agree, we should be patient and wait for the results of the commission. It would be the correct thing for us to do. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 281
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Speaker, arising from the hon President's reply, most of us in this House acknowledge that Mr Malema is a Polokwane political Frankenstein created by yourself in order to achieve your objective to become a President. Now, like all Frankensteins, he is uncontrollable and he is perceived to be a threat to the security of the country to the point that your Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, who has now unconstitutionally put the army on high alert, feels jittery.
Does this mean that, in the eyes of government, Mr Malema's activities can be equated to planning a coup d'état? Again, Mr President, can you explain why you and your government blame Lonmin mine for not providing housing for miners, while lack of housing and basic services is a serious problem all over South Africa as a result of the ANC's failure to deliver? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I produced no person, as it is claimed for Polokwane, not at all. So, I shouldn't be blamed for somebody who has some characteristics of his own. It is not my fault. I never participated in the production of some persons. [Laughter.]
I think you should not make the mistake of confusing ANC members who behave in a particular way at a particular time for very specific reasons and then say if they behave in that way they have been created by others. The ANC is a very democratic organisation whereby people differ in views and they also have views about the leaders they prefer to lead them. Now, if somebody prefers a particular leader it doesn't mean that that that leader created that person because they are exercising democracy and you should know this. Have you forgotten in, just a few years? [Laughter.]
With regard to the conditions in the mines, I think it will be an unfair mistake to compare what government is doing and what the mines have been doing over the centuries. I think it will be a nonfair comparison. Conditions in the mines had been terrible all the time, especially in that area which is owned by companies, not by government.
You also know that the question of housing for the majority of this country in the previous governments was also horrible. We are addressing that legacy in so far as the country is concerned. To suggest that it is the ANC that is not giving people houses, as if it is the ANC that, one it came to government it dispossessed people, and therefore it is its problem now to give people houses, instead of appreciating that the ANC, ever since it came into power, has had programmes and built houses. But you cannot resolve that issue overnight because is a huge issue over spanning centuries. So, to link that to the conditions in the mines, and you all know what those conditions are, I think is an unfair comparison. We cannot stop criticising companies that have money. We have made policies that they should change housing from being hostels, as you know them, into family houses. Some other mines are doing it and that's why you are able to stand and criticise Lonmin mine because the progress there is not like that of other mines. Those are the facts. Therefore we have a right to criticise Lonmin mine. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 281
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, it is true that the tragedy at Marikana has revealed serious fault lines in our country today, but this is because of big business and big governments and big unions working together to keep the rules of the game working in favour of a small connected elite at the centre. This, has served to keep everybody else out and has famed tensions in the mining industry. At the moment, the current labour relations regime states that union representation thresholds must be set at 51%, which led to a situation where the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union, Amcu, was not a recognised union at Lonmin mine. The Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union was therefore excluded from wage negotiations, empowering the ANC-affiliated National Union of Mineworkers, NUM, to establish a monopoly at the mine.
My question is about labour negotiations and relations in general, which is critical to social cohesion. Does the President believe that smaller unions should be empowered to negotiate on behalf of their members and not be excluded by big unions like NUM in a winner takes all scenario? Does the President believe that this can avert of tension and the possible violence that is now posing a threat to South Africa's mining sector? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we operate within regulated society. I think between workers and the employers there have been negotiations and agreements and those agreements must be respected. The kind of laws that have been made or regulated has been on the basis of the participation of all.
I think, as the hon member is aware, and she has said many times that she is a democrat, in a democratic situation it is the majority that prevails. [Applause.] I can't change the rules because you want to make a particular point. You can't then say smaller unions must then be compared to the bigger unions in the same way. [Interjections.] Exactly, that is why you sit in that bench all the time. You can't move to this side. [Laughter.] You can't. It is impossible. [Applause.]
No, I am telling you that you should appreciate that we are in Parliament as political parties and not as workers. I am talking about what governs the unions. All of their workers are working. Workers who do not join the unions can't have the same kind of privileges. Of course, they might benefit if those in the majority and those who are unionised win the gains in the negotiations, but they can't be the same. You can't have a union of half a dozen people because you have declared the union and then expect to have the same rights. [Interjections.] Sorry? We have more rights here because we are a majority. You have fewer rights because you are a minority. Absolutely, that's how democracy works.
So, it is a question of accepting the rules within democracy and you must operate within them. It doesn't matter if it so happens that you are in a small party or defending a small union and that is none of my business. [Laughter.] You sympathise with them. Absolutely it's a democracy. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr E J LUCAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 281
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr E J LUCAS: Mr President, we accept that you have established a commission of inquiry, however, it is a abundantly clear that there is growing tension, dissatisfaction and frustration starting to emerge. The Marikana tragedy is indirect eruption of such tension and frustration. My question to you, sir, is: How does your office intend to stabilise the growing unrest in the mining industry, bearing in mind that it has a direct impact on the economy of our country, as this needs urgent attention, and not to allow a situation to get out of control as the mines demonstrating following the strikes?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, it is absolutely true that there are some kinds of activity that are not acceptable and as the government we have been looking at them. I have engaged with the Ministers concerned to discuss how we would deal with this issue and very soon we will be able to let the public know, because it can no longer be accepted. You know that it is not just the miners who are striking, but it is also some people of some description who are going there to instigate miners to operate in a particular way and that cannot be accepted. Therefore we are looking into that and we are going act very soon. [Applause.]
QUESTIONS 16
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 282
QUESTION 15
Question 16:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon members, progress has been made in the education sector although challenges still remain in a number of provinces. We are doing well in promoting free basic education for all. Over eight million children are now in no-fee schools. Our school nutrition programme feeds more than eight million children in more than 20 000 schools, increasing their performance in class.
We have impressive figures with early childhood development. Grade R enrolment has increased from 300 000 to more than 700 000 between 2003 and 2011. We are therefore on track to meet our target of having 100% coverage for Grade R by 2014. Work is ongoing to eradicate mud schools, with R8,2 billion having been allocated to the programme.
The matric percentage pass rate is on an upward trend. The pass rate was 67,8% in 2010 and 70,2% in 2011. We are working on improving the quality of teaching maths and science as well as the teaching of literacy and numeracy. We are also working hard to improve literacy and numeracy in primary schools, given the fact that many of the learners who reach Grade 12 operate at literacy levels below Grade 12. In this regard, we instituted Annual National Assessment tests.
For the first time we are now able to objectively assess the health of the education system below Grade 12. The 2011 results confirmed that levels of literacy and numeracy are very low. For example, Grade 3 learner average scores are 28% and 35% for numeracy and literacy respectively. These are the figures that were apparently used by the World Economic Forum recently. We want schools to use the results to produce development plans. The factors that we are dealing with include school management, improving teacher training and increasing the levels of accountability in schools.
The schools must also have the tools of trade such as workbooks and textbooks. The Department of Basic Education is working on improving the distribution logistics so that books arrive in schools on time next year to avoid the problems that arose in Limpopo and other provinces. As members are aware, the national government has intervened to deal with severe managerial challenges faced by the Limpopo and the Eastern Cape education departments.
The interventions in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo are focused on a number of issues including overexpenditure; failure to deal with excess teachers; financial and supply chain management; and the nondelivery of learning and teaching materials. I have received a report from the Presidential Task Team on the Limpopo challenge led by the Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr Nhlanhla Nene. I am considering the report and will indicate the way forward in due course. We are continuing to work with the Eastern Cape as well to improve the situation in that province. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Nk N GINA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 282
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Nk N GINA: Mongameli, mangizwakalise ukubonga ngempendulo ecacile yangakhetha amabala, impendulo ekwaziyo ukuveza izingqinamba ezikhona kanye nempumelelo eseyenzekile. Mongameli, ngiyathanda ukuzwakalisa ukuthi uma ngiyilalele impendulo, - yebo ngiyasho ukuthi izingqinamba ziyavela - kodwa siyabona ukuthi izinzuzo sezithe ukuthi xaxa, zithathe igxathi eliphambili impela. Sengathi kungaqhubeka kube njalo Mongameli, ikakhulukazi izinto ezinjenge ngqalasizinda okuyiyona nto eyinkinga kakhulu esibhekene nayo eminyangweni yethu ukuze abantwana bethu bafunde kahle ezikoleni.
Siyabona futhi siyakuthakasela ukuthi ukuvezile empendulweni yakho nalokhu kuhlolwa okukhona okuhamba umhlaba wonke ukuze abantwana bethu bajwayele ukubhala ukuhlolwa ukuze kunyuke nezinga lemiphumela yezezibalo nokufunda. Okungithusayo kodwa nengifisa ukuthi ngikuveze ukuthi: kukho konke esesikuzuzile okungaka, sazi futhi ukuthi sisabhekene nazo zonke lezi zingqinamba, amasu namaqhinga abekiwe ukuthi lo mgwaqo omuhle esihamba ngawo njengezwe ukuze isizwe sisizakale kwezemfundo, asingasasuki kuwo. Kuthi noma sibhekene nezingqinamba singabe sisaphuma emugqeni omuhle kangaka. uMongameli angakwazi yini ukwabelana nathi nalawo masu namaqhinga angabe akhona ukuze sibnhekane nezinto ezinjengalezi. Ngiyabonga.
UMONGAMELI WASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, angibonge kakhulu kulungu elihloniphekile lesiShayamthetho. Kuyiqiniso ukuthi umzila esihamba ngawo yiwo oyimpendulo ezingqinambeni zasezinseleleni esibhekene nazo. Sihamba ngawo-ke futhi umehluko uyabonakala futhi awukwazi ukungabonakali umehluko uma sihamaba ngendlela eyiyonayona. Asikwazi-ke ukuziqeda zonke izingqinamba nezinhlupheko ezalethwa yincindezelo iminyaka eminingi. Yonke into eseyenzekile uma usuyilungisa uqala lapho kufanele uqale khona, ungene ubheke phambili. Isizulu phela sithi: impandla ikhwela ngamanhlonhlo. Senzenjalo ngeke siphume siqale impandla eceleni, sizohamba la kufanele kuhambe impandla, silandele amanhlonhlo kodwa ukuthi imizila nendlela esihamba ngayo yiyona impela eya ekhaya, ayisidukisi nezeneze. Sizohlala kuyona-ke ngoba yiyona le esibophele khona amasu namaqhinga ukuthi sizohamba kanjani size sifike lapho siya khona. Siyaya impela phambili noma nje siyofika ilanga selishona kodwa sizofika lapho siphokophele khona. Ngiyabonga Somlomo.
The SPEAKER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 282
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
English:
The SPEAKER: Are you hon Koos van der Merwe today, hon Mpontshane?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Speaker, through you to our President, on behalf of the IFP I just want to say that government doesn't seem to be meeting its targets. Mr President, two years ago you promised laptops to teachers but they haven't received those laptops. Incentives were promised to teachers teaching in rural schools, but they have yet to receive those incentives. With regard to scholar transport, we still have learners travelling more than 10 kilometres to school. But most importantly, the process whereby principals and deputy principals have to sign performance agreements has been held to ransom by unions in the Education Labour Relations Council, ELRC, for two years, and that has a bearing on the provision of quality education. Last week the global competitive report released results in which South Africa was ranked number 142 out of 144 countries in education. I hope that Cabinet has seen this report. If we were meeting our targets, why are we ranked the lowest? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I hope that the hon member is not trying to say that this government has created the problem of education, because we are dealing with the backlog of the majority of this country who were not provided with proper education. Many were not provided with education at all. If you made a comparison between South Africa and countries that never experienced apartheid, again that comparison was not looked at prudently. You cannot compare the problems of South Africa with those of countries that had been there all the time when we, in the first instance, had to fight the monster that is apartheid and change the education system so that we could begin to catch up with those countries. These are matters that we need to bear in mind when we pose questions instead of posing questions as if we started on the same basis as other countries, because we didn't. We just started 18 years ago. We believe that we are making a very good progress.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: With regard to the unions, once again, I don't know how people appreciate these things. Once we adopted the system of democracy, the workers too achieved their democracies. They have a constitutional right to make demands and to go on strike. There is nothing untoward in that situation. We have to find democratic ways to solve the problems between the department and the unions. If we decided that we did not care about the unions and we did what we liked, you would be saying that this government was causing chaos in this country, or you would be calling us dictators as well. We have to adhere to principles, persuasion and negotiation because that is what democracy demands, unfortunately. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Mr W M MADISHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 282
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr W M MADISHA: Mr President, it is a fact that under your leadership we have witnessed an ever-worsening basic education system. Even prominent members of the ANC have described this system as worse than the apartheid system. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Mr W M MADISHA: I can give examples of those prominent ANC members. Mrs Winnie Mandela and Dr Pallo Jordan have expressed their misgivings about the current system. This system is affecting the poorest of the poor. How can you convince South Africans that, without textbooks in the Limpopo and the Eastern Cape as well as North West, you are serious about lifting our people out of poverty? The reality is that, on the quality of the education system, South Africa is not even ranked number 140 out of 144 countries. Grade 3 learners scored 35% for literacy and 28% for numeracy. That is horrible, Mr President! We pay 15 times more per learner than Mozambique, yet, Mozambique learners outperform our learners. Is it a deliberate strategy to keep South Africans uneducated so that they become dependant on government, get grants and vote for your party? [Time expired.] As I sit down I say you have to fire the Minister of Education. Do you have the capacity? If you don't have it I say, sit down as well. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the hon member knows very well that the situation has changed for the better in education. [Interjections.] I am not sure whether he was teaching a strategy of undermining education in this country because he was a teacher not long ago. I have just explained the achievements we have made in education but it looks like the hon member was not listening, and that is a problem. Even if a person has views, the person must be able to balance his/her views with reality.
The reality is that there are more people at school in South Africa today than there were during the apartheid era. There are more and better facilities in schools than there were at other times. [Interjections.] If the member believes that, in fact, it is worse than during the apartheid era, then I don't know whether he was around at that time. [Interjections.]
The fact is that we have prioritised education in this country as priority number one. We spend more money on education and we are doing everything we can to ensure that South Africans are educated. South Africans know that this government has prioritised education and do not need to be convinced by anyone. I have indicated that, for the first time, this government has identified poor schools as no-fee schools and that has never happened before. Under apartheid, many children did not go to school if they did not have money, but they go to school today. [Applause.] If you do not see that difference, then you are living in another South Africa. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mrs C DUDLEY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 282
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs C DUDLEY: Mr President, I agree with you. I have witnessed an incredible commitment to education in the last three years and have seen incredible stride going forward. However, young people on political social networking sites are concerned not only about the ranking of South Africa with regard to education. I link that a lot to our brutal honesty and transparency in our reporting and also to the 10-year era of denial which we call the "Mbeki era", which undermined the education sector a lot. They are also worried about schools facing closure in Mpumalanga and the Western Cape. Mr President, what do you want to say to young people about those closures?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Is the hon member saying closure of schools?
Mrs C DUDLEY: Yes, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, that is not acceptable. We can't be closing schools when we need more schools, unless you have details as to why those schools are closed. We should create more facilities for education and more schools so that more of our people could receive education. Therefore, young people must know that we want to have more schools than to close schools. That is the message I am giving young people. We are working hard to improve education and create facilities for education. That is the objective of this government. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 17
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 283
QUESTION 16
Question 17:
IsiZulu:
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI: Uyayitapa ntombazane le mibuzo, ungathi kukhona la oyitapa khona.
English:
Hon Speaker, the granting of special remission of sentences, pardoning and many other forms of amnesty is a worldwide phenomenon or practice where heads of government or state undertake to commemorate special days in the history of their countries. Special remissions have been granted on four occasions since 1994.
The remissions were announced on Freedom Day to encourage the offenders to turn a negative past into a positive future and for them to turn their backs on crime and become better citizens. The remissions were granted in accordance with section 84(2)()(j) of the Constitution of the Republic. This was done to achieve a few objectives. It was to provide the sentenced offenders a second opportunity to behave, repent and to become better and rehabilitated persons.
It was meant to reduce and relieve congestion and overcrowding in correctional facilities which currently stands at 34% above capacity. Overcrowding adversely affects the ability of any correctional system to rehabilitate, train and secure offenders. The President granted six months special remission of sentence to all offenders, probationers and parolees. An additional twelve months special remission was granted to offenders who were not convicted of aggressive, firearm-related, sexual offenses and drug-related crimes.
Those declared as dangerous by the courts, who were still at large after escaping or absconding, and those who evaded the justice system following their release on bail pending appeal against their convictions or sentences, were excluded from this special remission. I have not been formally briefed yet on how many of those released have reoffended.
The Minister of Correctional Services is required to provide a status report to the justice, crime prevention and security cluster and to the President three months after completion of the ten week special remission process which was completed on 6 July 2012. Such a report is due in October 2012.
The following preliminary information has however been provided to the Presidency. A total of 114 alleged reoffenders out of the
45 033 persons who were released during the ten-week process, reoffended and were rearrested. They were rearrested for crimes ranging from theft, housebreaking, assault, drugs and rape. It is unfortunate that some of them failed to positively use the opportunity granted to them. Instead they went on to commit new crimes and caused untold pain to families and society.
However, there are also success stories. Fredoleen Isaacs who was serving his sentence at St Albans Correctional Centre in Port Elizabeth is now a manager of a pharmacy. [Applause.] Kassavan Naicker who was released from the Pietermaritzburg Correctional Centre is now his own boss working as an electrician, a skill he learnt while incarcerated. [Applause.] Vumokwakhe Mkhize, also from Pietermaritzburg now owns a panel beating company, a skill also learnt from correctional services. Paul Evans from the Western Cape fruitfully used his time of incarceration to acquire a qualification in information technology through Unisa and is now employed at a company as an information technology, IT, specialist. [Applause.]
I appeal to society to assist particularly those who will fall on hard times. They need all of us to successfully reintegrate and permanently divert them from a life of crime. In this way we will be contributing immensely to the fight against crime in our country.
Hon Speaker, I must say that I have just given a few examples. In fact, there are more success stories than the ones who did not succeed. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 283
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, South Africa has been shocked by a series of violent crimes committed by the beneficiaries of President Zuma's special remissions programme. Earlier this year, it was reported that a 94-year-old KwaZulu-Natal woman was attacked and raped by a paroled prisoner who had been released in terms of this programme. A woman in Porterville was kidnapped, held captive for three days and raped repeatedly by two men, one of whom was a beneficiary of the programme. Another prisoner who benefited was arrested after he had broken into a woman's house and brutally raped her too. In total, 114 beneficiaries of the programme have reoffended. Those are only the numbers we have so far.
I hear the President telling us about the successes of the programme. But this is an indictment of a programme which released prisoners without any rational decision-making on an individual basis about whether or not they were suitable for parole.
Would the President not concedes to this House that the special remissions programme didn't provide for that rational decision-making and was a serious mistake, given how many people in our country have been victims of crime by reoffenders? And will he apologise today, here in this House where he stands, to the families and the victims of those who have been so brutally affected by his decision? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I am sure the hon member knows that all citizens are not the same. They are different. Those who get arrested and go to prison after conviction are also not the same. Some indeed stop criminal life and others don't. The unfortunate thing is that they do not have anything written on their foreheads and therefore, you cannot see who is still a criminal.
Even those who come out when their term ends - some don't commit crime and others do. We have a constitutional system. The President did not do anything out of the framework of the law and the Constitution.
Special remission, as I've indicated is done and it is a normal thing done universally. We have those who were released and, of course, did wrong things and we accept that what they have done is wrong. We sympathise with the families who were the victims of this. It's a matter that we can deal with specifically from that point of view. But I don't think you can say that if you take a decision with the system that screens people and recommends that these are the people who can come out because in terms of our observation we think these ones indeed deserve to benefit from this. You can't say the system would be perfect. Once they are out and they commit crimes they have to be rearrested. Therefore, I don't appreciate your point when you say that I must apologise for giving special remission. Special remission will be given because it is within the framework of the Constitution. To simplify it for you, it's like if you have a family. In a family not every child behaves perfectly. It is not, and it is not that you want your child to become something else. I am saying here that we are dealing with the system. You cannot have a perfect situation, particularly if you are dealing with inmates or former inmates.
They are observed by people in prison. These people make recommendations about who are the prisoners they believe have now repented. If they go out and commit crime they are doing something wrong and we sympathise with the families. We certainly sympathise with the families where this happened.
I don't know what you are looking for, because I am saying your point is wrong because you're saying that I must apologise for giving special remission. Why? Because this is within the Constitution. You are demanding an apology on a wrong point. That is your problem. I can explain and say here without any hesitation that I sympathise with the victims who indeed were the victims of this kind of people that were taken out thinking that they had already repented. Some of the people who actually commit crime were at the point of finishing their sentences.
I am saying that from government's point of view we sympathise with the victims. We have rearrested the offenders and they are in prison. That is why we've got the number which we have. That's what we can say. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr P B MNGUNI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 283
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr P B MNGUNI: Speaker, Mr President, we put it to you that this process was poorly planned. Your announcement came as a surprise even to the Department of Correctional Services. You granted amnesty to the prisoners who have not been rehabilitated or prepared to be reintegrated into the communities.
There are also prisoners in jail who should still be released. The result is that more than 100 of those granted amnesty have already been rearrested for a range of offences such rape of grannies, attempted murder, robbery, assault, kidnapping , stock theft, possession of drugs, possession of stolen goods and house breaking.
Mr President, I'm asking you, can you safely, in front of that granny who got raped say you're proud of releasing these prisoners who raped her? Can you safely say that in front of that granny? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, I will not say that in front of the granny, but I will sympathise with her. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 283
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Mr Speaker, and to you Mr President, it is with a sense of uneasiness that arise in your partial defence. There is a much larger issue. Your government, like any other government, can only operate within the Constitution. It can only hold people in prison in terms of the Constitution, and if it does not do so it is constitutionally bound to release them.
The issue of overcrowding is a major, major issue. The big issue behind the debate we are having here is that you may be constitutionally obliged to release more and more people just because your government cannot guarantee them that their detention is in terms of the Constitution and the minimum conditions that the Constitution requires.
A few years back the IFP's former Minister of Correctional Services, Dr Sipho Mzimela put forward the notion of privatising prisons. What we need are two types of contracts issued by the government. The first one should be to companies to operate prisons which they build at their own costs and the other one to companies to make sure that the company that operates complies with all the rules of the Constitution or the statues and the rules issued by the Department of Correctional Services.
This notion of government building and operating prisons does not work. It is that condition that forces you, Mr President, by its necessity, to release prisoners whether they are ready or not. Unless and until we fix that structural problem, you may again be forced, willing or unwilling, to release prisoners whether they are ready or not to be released into society.
We need to look at the bigger issue as our prisons are failing. We dare say that if you want to determine the civility of a nation, you must look at its prisons. We are meeting that test. Can we note and look at the issue of privatising prisons and getting it right? [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, basically that was the opinion of the hon member. That is his view. It's a view that needs to be debated. I'm sure, he is a Member of Parliament and he can raise the issue here to be debated because that's what he thinks you need to do. It was not a question.
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 283
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Mr Speaker, Mr President, given that prisoners are sentenced by a court after hearing all the circumstances of each and every case, mitigating and aggravating circumstances included. Would you not agree that your actions in granting such a large scale remissions without taking into account individual circumstances in each case is undermining the decisions of the courts? If not, why not?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, no, there was no undermining of the court decisions. As I said earlier, this is the system that is practiced universally and none of those who are empowered by the Constitution to do so when they do that is undermining the decisions of the courts.
What happens is that once you say that there is a remission to be done for so many, you actually don't go as the President and point to this or that prisoner to go out. It is the system that screens and therefore looks at those who must benefit. It is a system which looks at, among others, the behaviour of those who have been in prison. As they have been recording the behaviour, they are able to identify, after screening, the ones who could go out.
I don't think that you could expect the President to know how each and every prisoner behaves in prison. That is impossible. All you do is that you undertake the authority that you have to take a decision which is then taken down through the Minister, the officials and the people in prison who then screen the people and later tell you the number of those who could benefit. That is how it is. It has nothing to do with the undermining of the courts. Thank you, hon Speaker.
QUESTION 18
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 284
QUESTION 17
Question 18:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon member, the change in police ranks is an operational matter and has no constitutional implications. Section 199(1) of the Constitution talks of a Police Service, and this will continue to be so.
As government, we have resolved to combat serious and violent crime by being tougher on criminals and organised crime syndicates. The ranks were changed to send a message to criminals that government was getting tough on crime. This approach has borne results as evidenced by the reduction in the levels of serious crimes. However, we have consistently stressed that the police must operate within the confines of the Constitution.
The issue of ranks on its own cannot constitute militarisation. One can call the management of police by any other name. What is important, however, is the orientation of the police. This change of police ranks should also not be viewed in isolation of the other pillars of our strategy. These include the strengthening of partnerships with communities, utilisation of intelligence as a nerve centre of policing and the review of the entire criminal justice system to make it more effective. We have improved oversight mechanisms. For example, two pieces of legislation were passed in 2010, namely the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Act and the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act. These are aimed at ensuring that the Police Service remains accountable to the people and that the police uphold the Constitution and adhere to the principles of a democratic dispensation.
If the hon member is referring to any activities of the tactical response team, TRT, we urge the hon member to make use of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. The Directorate investigates alleged cases of police abuse independently from the police and without fear or favour. All members of the SAPS, which includes the TRT, have to abide by the code of conduct of the SAPS and are all subjected to the disciplinary code and procedures of the organisation.
Any wrongdoing by a TRT member will be investigated. I must also add that complaints against the TRT must also be judged overall against successes they have scored in various parts of the country in dealing with cases of armed robbery, drug busts, rhino poaching, cash in transit heists and other similar serious violent crimes.
I thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon President. Please take your seat, hon member. Hon Ramatlakane will take charge of the supplementary question on behalf of hon Lekota.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 284
The SPEAKER
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker and Mr President, we warned before that the reintroduction of the army ranks to the Police Service and the militarisation of the Police Service was wrong and, in fact, unconstitutional. We warned that such introduction is a slow walk back to Vlakplaas, but your government persisted. The result of this ill-conceived decision which created a paramilitary unit is creating tension between the community and the police. It is there for all to see. The Marikana massacre, the TRT, the Cato Manor hit squad, which has more than 45 bodies under its belt, is the result of this militarisation.
The question is, Mr President, how are you going to make sure that this militarisation that has created the impression that the Police Service now has firing power against unarmed civilians is going to be reversed? How are you going to make sure that it is reversed?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I know the hon member has always asked this question. I have said that we were faced with crime that was growing, and we needed to give the police everything that they needed to fight crime. I am saying that they have fought crime and succeeded in doing so. You are quoting other instances of incidents by the police that happened even before they were referred to as "ranks". You are all putting it together as if it happened after the ranking. It is not true; you know it very well. We are dealing with crime. We are saying that the police must be empowered, must be encouraged to fight crime.
Ranking them, as we felt we needed to, was one way of making the police feel that they can fight crime. You could have a different view. You have a right to have a different view, and you could raise it. You cannot say that before the ranking there was no crime in South Africa, because you are putting it that as soon as ranks were created, the crime escalated. It is actually the other way around. You have a view. [Interjections.] Yes, I know that he was a member of Cabinet at some point. [Interjections.]
You have a view, and I can tell you, as an opposition, you will always have a view on every issue. [Interjections.] That is what happens, and you could advance your view. It does not change the situation that in so far as we are concerned, this was necessary and, indeed, the crime rate has gone down. It is not as if before the ranking, there were no people who were dying in operations. You talk as if there was nobody dying at all. That is the exaggeration of facts. I am saying that you are entitled to a view, and you could advance it. This is a system we believe will help, and it has helped to a large extent. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 284
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Speaker, I am sure that the President is aware that the Cabinet has signed off on the National Development Plan, which agrees to demilitarise the SAPS. The remilitarisation of the SAPS and the Marikana tragedy happened under the current Minister of Police. The latter – the Marikana tragedy – was the inevitable outcome of the former, the militarisation of the SAPS. In most other democracies in the world, the Minister of Police would have done the right thing and stepped down immediately after such a tragedy. [Interjections.] Yet, he hasn't.
Of course, we do need to know if he offered his resignation, presumably not. Once the judicial commission of inquiry findings are announced, and should the burden of the blame for the killings lie at the feet of the SAPS, will the President do the right thing and replace him? If he has decided he will not, could he explain to this House what reasons he would have for not doing so? We don't need to await the outcome of the commission of inquiry to know his thoughts on this matter. Please enlighten us, sir, because the buck stops with you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think the hon member is in too much of a hurry. She wants the President to judge results that have not yet been announced. I don't know where you have ever heard that. We don't know what the results of the inquiry will be. Why should you pose the question: What then? Will you do X, Y, and Z? I think you are in too much of a hurry, hon member. [Interjections.] Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 284
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms A VAN WYK: Speaker and Mr President, we hear the opposition speaking in forked tongues this afternoon. On the one hand, during the question just before this one, we heard the hon the Leader of the Opposition speaking about the violent nature of crime. [Interjections.] Yet, this time around, we see people who want to call for resignations, etc that are totally irrelevant. It would be nice to have members from that side of the House acknowledging successes like the more than R60 million worth of drugs seized and the arrest of eight people last night, effectively closing down a major drug and 419-scheme in South Africa. Mr President, if you have it available, is it possible for you to provide us with more detail on the successes of the TRT that you have listed? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think it is a well–known fact that the crime rate in the country has come down. It was very high. As a result of the police being encouraged and empowered, they were then able to act decisively and bring down the crime rate. As you have just recounted, we should consider how many times they have discovered drugs, how many times they have stopped armed robberies by criminals who were well armed and who would shoot to kill. There have been successes, and what people are not doing is to balance the successes and what they refer to as shortcomings when they discuss these matters. The police have made strides in terms of bringing down crime. It is a fact. If need be, we could bring the information to show what happened from any given time up to now.
So, the hon members are well aware of the successes, but, of course, as the opposition, they will do what the opposition does: to pretend there is no progress being made by the police. That is unfortunately what they will do. It is the nature of oppositional politics. If they are not constructive, they try and find something. If they cannot tackle your policy, they must find mistakes, because they cannot provide an alternative. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 13 September 2012 Take: 284
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Speaker, through you to the President, the issue is not about the results. It is about how one goes about reaching those results. One appreciates, Mr President, that, as you said, it is a very difficult balancing act. One wants results, and in the process, one's drive can lead to mistakes. We had experienced, when we were in Home Affairs, that when placing new people in the same positions that the old people were in, somehow the old habits run into the new people. Here are the issues that are breaking an ancient mould. We inherited a violent, ruthless police, which was not as professional as required. We are dealing with a Police Service that – in the way it appears to many of us – is still far from being professional.
One appreciates, Mr President, that you want to wait for the outcome of the commission of inquiry, but we have seen the images of Marikana. Whatever the outcome is, what we have seen spells out highly unprofessional conduct. We have seen the images of the police and the Defence Force getting into a shooting match in front of your building, the Union Building. There is something highly unprofessional which is running through the Police Service.
The militarisation of the structure of the police accentuates the lack of professionalism, the lack of a Public Service, of people who do a job, not as the military, not as servants, not as the English Bobbies, but within the mould of the old police which use force. I think that is the essence of the question that has been put to you. It might be that the answer you gave is technically correct and addresses the legal reality, but the perception underpinning the question is that the police remain more brutal than necessary, not because it is evil, but because it is highly untrained and highly unprofessional. How will you address this second secular problem in dealing with crime? Thank you, Mr President. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I hope the hon member will appreciate, as a lawyer, that you cannot discuss the findings of the commission, what the commission will pronounce on. I think it is an unfortunate thing that you might want us to make the judgment now on whether they acted professionally or not. I think we would expect the commission to pronounce on that.
I also don't agree that the police are unprofessional. They are professional people; they are trained. It is not true that they are not trained. Nobody becomes a police officer without training. They are trained. They are professional. They do their professional work. I don't want to go the circumstances that confront the police, particularly because at this point in time, we have a commission of inquiry. The facts, at times and, as a lawyer, you know, can be different from what you perceive, as a person, to have happened.
So, I don't think that I should be dragged to a point where I make a judgment. The fact of the matter is that an incident happened, and we have sent a commission of professional people who are qualified to make judgment to do so, particularly because it is a tragedy and a very emotional matter. I think if we play around with it, we are not helping the situation or the commission itself. So, I am not going to go into what it is, how professional it was, and what happened. I think we will get evidence of what actually happened. Then, after judgment, I am sure we will be free to critique it and perhaps, as a legal person, you would have a better way of criticising some other legal people. You always criticise one another anyway, as legal people. There will be nothing new.
Mr G R MORGAN: It starts at Mangaung!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Judges at times pass sentences that others say are wrong. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that if a judgment is made, that it is always correct. All I am saying is that we should not play around with it. Let us wait for the commission. I would expect a lawyer, in particular, to adhere to that more than anybody else. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The House adjourned at 16:13.
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