Hansard: Questions for Oral Reply, Peace and Security, Cluster 1

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 21 Aug 2012

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 188

WEDNESDAY, 22 AUGUST 2012

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

________________________

The House met at 15:04.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER (WELCOME)


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START OF DAY

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to take this opportunity to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of a delegation of women veterans from the Regional Works Unit of the Western Cape in the SA National Defence Force. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS – CLUSTER 1


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START OF DAY

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

PEACE AND SECURITY

CLUSTER 1

Question 212:

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, all Kyoto parties, except Russia, Japan and Canada, have committed in Durban at the 17th session of the UNFCCC Conference of the Parties and the seventh session of the Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to the Kyoto Protocol (COP/MOP 7) to a second commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol, which will commence on 1 January 2013. All parties agreed to the Ad Hoc Working Group on the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action, popularly known as the ADP, which will negotiate within the set timeframes - that is, from 2015 to 2020, by when a new protocol, another legal instrument or an agreed outcome with legal force under the UNFCCC will be developed. Currently, all parties are in agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions under this future agreement.

Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN

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The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION

Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you, hon Minister, for your reply. The slow pace of commitment to reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by developed countries is of serious concern, as developing and poor countries suffer the most from global warming. Developing countries take longer to recover when climate change causes floods and droughts, among other things. Is the Minister hopeful that developed countries will demonstrate a strong will and not just formally conform to the Cop 17 agreement? Will they do more out of their own initiative to drastically reduce their emissions?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: I think it is the responsibility of both developed and developing countries to make sure that the historic outcome of the Durban Platform for Action gets implemented to the full. I think that is the only way we could safeguard the interests of developing countries.

Developed countries have a historic responsibility to continue under the principle of "equal but differentiated" to continue contributing more than the developing countries in not only reducing the greenhouse gas emissions but making sure that they continue to provide the necessary support for adaptation, largely and particularly for developing countries, the small islands and African countries, in particular, in their adaptation initiatives, because this is what is covered and protected in the Durban outcome.

The Durban conference secured the integrity of a multilateral rules-based system by establishing a second commitment period under the KP. When we left Mexico, everybody was saying it was dead, but we managed to secure that, as well as delivery on most of the Bali and Cancun outcomes.

Durban furthermore represents a gear shift in climate change negotiations where future work can now focus on implementation, as well as development of a more comprehensive and ambitious multilateral regime.

As a country, therefore, South Africa - and all developing countries, particularly African ones - had delivered a historic, watershed conference, because it is the first time that a process was launched that would lead to reduction obligations for both developed and developing countries. As we move to Qatar, these are the successes that we have to defend and safeguard.

Mr E M MLAMBO

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The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION

Mr E M MLAMBO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not have a follow-up question.

Mr L W GREYLING

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Mr E M MLAMBO

Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, I was at Cop 17, where through sheer persistence and hard work we managed to get agreement on the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action. I think we can take immense pride in securing such an outcome, but I am sure you will agree that the real hard work lies ahead of us still.

One of the components of the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action is the agreement that a new global treaty, including both developed and developing countries, will be negotiated by 2015. I would like to know how those negotiations are going at present. Has there been acceptance on the part of developed countries that the principle of common but differentiated responsibilities must inform these negotiations for a global treaty?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I acknowledge the contributions that were made by hon members of this House, including the hon member who just took the floor. I must also say that one of the key outcomes of Durban, through this historic outcome, was a balanced package of decisions that also included the launch of the Green Climate Fund.

The Southern African Development Community, SADC, summit recently endorsed the hosting of the secretariat of the Green Climate Fund in Windhoek, Namibia. This is just one way of making sure that we continue to keep our eye on the ball, and we have to continue doing that.

As I said earlier on, the negotiations will start in earnest in 2015. So, we have the period between 2015 and 2020. What we need to do is to continue working together with other developing countries, African Union members in particular.

Luckily, the Ministers of environment from our continent will be meeting in September to do all the reviews before we go to Qatar in December of this year. This is to make sure that we continue making the requisite preparations, to be advised by science and also to collate all the necessary information as we build up towards the start of the negotiations in 2015. In the meantime, we do have a bridge - the Kyoto Protocol - that is in use and enforced until the negotiations start and until the actual implementation of the new platform to be launched in 2020..

Ms B D FERGUSON

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The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION

Ms B D FERGUSON: Minister, there have been lots of talks about talks on issues of climate change and environmental greening, leading to South Africa hosting the Cop 17 indaba last December. Various resolutions and communiqués, right from the Kyoto Protocol and other greening conferences around the world, require that governments be involved and lead the way in the application of sustainable development principles and practices at all levels.

It surely has become fashionable for South Africa to be involved in these noble ideals, but mostly at ministerial and governmental levels, with no clear plan for the grass roots and the implementation thereof. My question to you, Minister, is: How can we shorten the timeframes of these goals to make them tangible and meaningful to ordinary people? Are the deadlines and goals set for 2015 achievable in the dark climate of poverty, unemployment and corruption that our country is riddled with? If so, what can the Minister share with the nation on this matter?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon member, through the hon Deputy Speaker, certain hon members of this august House, including members from your esteemed party, participated in full in these processes as a build-up towards South Africa hosting this very historic COP 17/MOP 7. It is going to take the leadership of this House to make sure that South Africa lives up to the commitments it is making.

Secondly, before South Africa's hosting of Cop 17, this House adopted a Green Paper that was presented here by the hon Minister Molewa and was thoroughly discussed. Lastly, it is the responsibility of the global leadership to make sure that we protect our environment together.

What did the South African government do prior to the hosting of Cop 17? There was a civil society entity known as C17, the Civil Society Committee for Cop 17. It was in this country, in Durban, where civil society had full participation, including a massive demonstration and a march, where I received a memorandum. Civil society was allowed to participate in full in these processes. Civil society was also fully represented in the main plenary hall, including the representatives of women, youth and broader civil society, as well as those who represented believers from all sectors of our community. So, there was full participation of all South Africans from all walks of life.

What remains a historical responsibility is the role of the developed, industrialised countries. They have had a 100 years of unfettered development and industrialisation, which led to the crisis that we are facing today. However, finger pointing cannot lead us to the new destiny that we all aspire to. Developing countries are also committed to doing their bit through adaptation. So, it is going to take global leadership for us to make sure that we implement what we have agreed on. The role of South Africa was to make sure that we delivered an outcome that took the processes of negotiations under the UNFCCC forward - and we delivered just that.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE

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The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Minister, I am concerned about good intentions. We have all these meetings - in Durban, Copenhagen and all over - and we take resolutions, but do we carry them out? I remember at a meeting in Geneva once, we spoke about poverty, of resolutions taken four years earlier, and one rapporteur after the other who stood up showed that almost nothing had been done in the four or five years. My concern is about the good resolutions that were taken on this very serious matter: Are we carrying them out or is it just talking?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am the current President of Cop 17 until December. The responsibility I have is to make sure that the international community lives up to their expectations. One of the outcomes or deliveries that we made in Durban is that of the establishment of the Green Climate Fund.

What South Africa is doing, here in our country, Minister Molewa is doing that efficiently. She will be supported by your good selves in respect of the commitments that South Africa made when we went to Copenhagen and Cancun, historically, as well as in Durban and when we move forward to Qatar. No single country can take overall responsibility for the global challenges of climate change because the negative impacts of climate change know no artificial boundaries and borders.

QUESTION 210


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QUESTION 212 - The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION

Question 210:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, the Western Cape gang strategy is in place. There are four types of gangs, namely the township gangs, Cape Flats gangs, prison gangs and foreign groupings. Each gang requires a specific approach, depending on their unique dynamics.

The situation in Khayelitsha and other areas requires a long-term and multidisciplinary approach, which includes addressing the socioeconomic conditions in the area. The South African Police Service has adopted the following strategy to deal with the current situation: increased capacity to gather intelligence information in these areas; increased police capacity in these areas; increased police visibility; increased community mobilisation and interaction; as well as partnerships and co-operation with government departments and some NGOs. Ministers in the social and economic sectors will also be studying the situation and looking for long-term solutions that promote sustainable development and stable communities.

We will monitor the situation to ascertain the success of the initiatives and further decisions will be taken if necessary.

Rev K R J MESHOE

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 189


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, the reality is that everything government has attempted so far has not produced the desired results. The gang violence that is now taking place in Khayelitsha has prompted members of the Congress of Democratic Taxi Associations to intensify their crime prevention campaign in that township. Their leaders say they have decided to intervene because gangsterism, in spite of what government is doing, is increasing. They are reported to be disarming gangsters and keeping weapons in their offices before handing them over to the police. I believe that is dangerous, as those guns can fall into the hands of the criminals.

Minister, we all know that if the gangs that are being disarmed by the taxi owners start shooting at the taxi drivers, then retaliation from those taxi drivers will have disastrous consequences. To prevent this potential threat of confrontation from taking place, I want to know if the Minister will consider reintroducing special units to deal with gangsterism and illicit drugs. If the answer is yes, when can we expect these units to start operating, because government is unsuccessful, and if not, why not?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, the issue of gangsterism, especially in the Western Cape, is not a police issue alone. Each and every individual, including baruti [priests], is part of the solution to this problem. The taxi industry is part of the solution to this. These criminals that you are talking about don't fall from trees; they have homes and families. They should be part of the solution.

Yes, Mr Meshoe, when you talk about specialised units, we have the Hawks, which deals with special cases such as these. What we, including the churches, therefore need to do is just support the Hawks so that they can deal with the issue.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Deputy Speaker – oh, I see the chair is also empty. So, to the Deputy Minister, I am quite sure you know of the launch today of the commission of inquiry into allegations of police inefficiency in Khayelitsha, as the community believes that the police has not been doing its job in arresting known gangsters, criminals and drug lords. This is an honest attempt by the Western Cape government to get to the bottom of the situation. Will the Deputy Minister assure this House that she will instruct members of SAPS to co-operate as fully as possible with the inquiry and certainly implement the recommendations?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, members of SAPS have always co-operated, especially when it comes to the issues of fighting crime. No, I don't know about a commission of inquiry. I am hearing of it for the first time now, from you. Maybe the Minister knows, but I don't. I think you must also take it upon yourself, as the people who are ruling this Western Cape province, to make sure that the lives of the people of Khayelitsha and the Cape Flats are bettered.

isiXhosa:

USEKELA SOMLOMO : Thobani umsindo bantu.

Mnu V B NDLOVU

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 189


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

IsiZulu:

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, awubakhuze futhi. Mhlonishwa, uma uthi unazo izindlela zokulwa nezigebengu, senikwazile yini ukuboka ukuthi yiziphi izigebengu ezingabaholi? Ngisho ngoba kufuneka ube nendlela yokulwa nezigebengu ngoba usuzazi ukuthi ziholwa ngubani, oqhamuka kuphi. Ngiyabonga.

isiXhosa:

SEKELA UMPHATHISWA WAMAPOLISA: Enkosi Tat'uNdlovu, abona bantu bazaziyo izigebenga ukuba zihla phi yiDA ngoba uMEC weDA uneengxoxo azibiza ngokuba ziPeace Accord apho ahlala khona neenkokeli zegangsters bezama indlela yokufikelela kwisivumelwano ekulweni le nto. Ngoko ke oyena mntu uzaziyo izigebenga nguDA, makabuze pha kuMEC Dan Plato. Enkosi tata.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: If I heard correctly, the Deputy Minister was implying that the DA was friends with gangsters. Is that what she said?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you didn't hear correctly. Sit down, please.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, my follow-up question to the Deputy Minister is that, as far as I can remember, the provincial MEC doesn't quite have the constitutional power to direct mainly what the police should do in the province. That remains a national competency.

The second thing I want to say is that there is killing of children in the Western Cape. The senseless killing of bystanders is a serious matter that requires serious attention. Do you think Crime Intelligence has the capacity to deal with this? On the issue of community involvement, we have not seen it happening as you speak today. I asked the police about this yesterday. They have spoken about the issue of the mobilisation of the community so that it can play a role in the fight against gangsterism. The question is: Are you satisfied with what you have seen and with what more is going to be done to save the lives of the children in the Western Cape?

Sesotho:

MOTLATSA LETONA LA SEPOLESA: Ntate Ramatlakane, o ne o le Letona provenseng ena mme o tseba hantle hore o bua ka eng. Ha Mopresidente a ne a kopane le Letona la Tshireletso le Mekaubere ya Sesole le Letona la Sepolesa matsatsi a sa tswa feta, o ile a mema ditlahiso le ho bolela hore ke dife dintho tse tla etswa ho lwantshana le botlokotsebe ka hara provensi ena ya Kapa Bophirima. Hape ke sa pheta ke re seabo sa lona jwaloka baahi ba Kapa Bophirima, se bohlokwa haholo. Leha ho jwalo, ke a o tshepisa hore re tla matlafatsa sepolesa hore se tsebe ho lwantsha botlokotsebe ka hara provensi ena ya hao. Ke a leboha.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Deputy Speaker, I want to rise on a point of clarity regarding what the Deputy Minister said about the DA. I would like to request ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I didn't ask you to stand up.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: I would like to request ... [Interjections.] ... that you study the Hansard and make a ruling on what she said.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: On what she said now - the answer or what?

Mr J J MCGLUWA: No, on what she said earlier about the DA – the issue that was raised by the hon Watson.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat, please.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: I am rising on a point of clarity. I would like you to investigate and to see exactly what the Minister said. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I heard you, hon member. Can you sit down now?

QUESTION 228


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QUESTION 210

Question 228:

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, there is no intention from the National Prosecuting Authority to withdraw from the International Association of Prosecutors, so the communication therefore does not arise.

Ms M SMUTS: Hon Minister, through you, Ma'am, arising from the hon Minister's reply, the facts as I understand them are that Adv Nomgcobo Jiba heard that Adv Gerrie Nel had been nominated for a special achievement award for his outstanding work in the Selebi trial. She then did the following things: Firstly, she said the NPA should have been consulted, despite the fact that individual prosecutors and associations of prosecutors can be members of the IAP and can motivate a nomination as they see fit.

Secondly, she threatened to withdraw South Africa or South Africans from the IAP, a thing she cannot do and, as it appears now, she told the Minister she would not do.

My first question is: Will the hon Minister encourage Adv Gerrie Nel's attendance at the IAP conference where this award is to be handed to him later this year? Will the Minister encourage such attendance so that he is not prevented from attending and will the hon Minister congratulate Adv Nel on his great achievement?

It is Adv Jiba herself who signed the warrant for the arrest of Adv Nel - and that arrest is now the subject of a civil claim for unlawful arrest. It is Adv Nel who successfully prosecuted Adv Jiba's husband for stealing a client's trust fund money. The hon President recently expunged that criminal record. Ma'am and hon Minister, impartiality is perceived to be the casualty at the hands of special personal interests. That perception is something we need to deal with. My second question is ... [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, your speaking time ran out long ago. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I think this is part of a smear campaign against Adv Nomgcobo Jiba and everything that is being said is baseless. In June 2011, Adv Jiba attended the meeting of the IAP in Korea. So, the idea that she could be against the International Accreditation Forum, the IAF, is without foundation. All the issues she has been raising now have been properly disposed of by the NPA and Adv Nomgcobo Jiba. [Interjections.] So, I have answered the question and there is no basis for what is being alleged. It is a smear campaign against Adv Nomgcobo Jiba that appears in some newspapers, with so-called sources within the NPA. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Why can't you just congratulate the man?

Mr D A KGANARE

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr D A KGANARE: Deputy Speaker, I am holding a newspaper cutting here, which reads, "Jiba wanted Nel by hook or by crook." Hon Minister, Cope is amazed at the power the acting prosecution boss, Adv Nomgcobo Jiba, has assumed since she was appointed to act in that position. Nowhere in the Constitution does the law grant her or any other civil servant or government employee the power to overrule executive decisions and threaten to overhaul legislation or international conventions through emotional outbursts. Adv Jiba threatened to overhaul a legislated convention that the South African government signed to be a member of the International Association of Prosecutors after she found out that Adv Gerrie Nel was investigating a politically connected ally! In this case, it is her husband, Mr Booker Nhantsi, who is a convicted thief, but his criminal record was expunged by the President in September 2010, and the ex-boss of crime intelligence, Richard Mdluli. Cope wonders how many more such incidents are occuring in the department. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time is up, hon member. Please note that this session is for asking questions, not to make a long speech before asking a question. Your time will be up before you have even asked a question. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think the so-called Cope is dancing to the tune of the smear campaign against Nomgcobo. As I said, Nomgcobo attended the IAF last year. So, how on earth would a person attend if she was opposed to such an association? Please, Mr Kganare, you must get information from reliable sources, not from eyewitnesses in some newspapers who are talking about things they know nothing about. [Applause.]

Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No point of order, sir. [Interjections.]

Mr D A KGANARE: No, you can't deny me appoint of order! [Interjections.] I am rising on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.

Mr D A KGANARE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I want you to rule whether it is parliamentary for the hon Minister to refer to Cope, which is a political party legally elected to this Parliament, as "so-called Cope". [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will now call upon hon Mncwango and then I will make a ruling on that later, hon member.

Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Deputy Speaker, I am sorry but I pushed the wrong button. Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am curious to know the answer that the Minister didn't provide to hon Smuts. I would like to have that answer. Will the Minister encourage and facilitate Adv Nel's reception of this award? Will the Minister congratulate Adv Nel? Can the Minister congratulate him in the House, here and now? Yes or no? Can we please have an answer?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mncwango.

Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I told you that I mistakenly pushed the wrong button. So, it was me who pushed the wrong button - I was sitting in the wrong place. I humbly apologise, but it was me who asked to speak, not the hon Mncwango.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh, alright.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I have answered the question that was posed to me: whether the NPA was going to withdraw from the International Conference of Prosecutors or not. I have answered it and all other peripheral questions are out of order. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Why can't you congratulate him now? Do you hate him so much? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is one more question.

Ms M SMUTS

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Ms M SMUTS: Hon Minister, I reject the suggestion that I work on the basis of information that is part of a smear campaign. I work with my own tried and trusted sources at all times.

My second question to the hon Minister is the following: What will the hon Minister's advice to the hon President be if he proposed to appoint Adv Jiba as the permanent national Director of Public Prosecutions in the event that the Constitutional Court upholds the SCA's judgment against the appointment of Adv Menzi Simelane? Will he advise that he is fit and proper, based on objective, jurisdictional facts, which are required for the SCA's judgment?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I am not a sangoma, so I do not know what the President's mind is ... [Interjections.] ... because in terms of the Constitution the Director of Public Prosecutions is appointed by the President. So, I do not know what is in his mind and am not able to answer that question. [Interjections.]

Lastly, your sources are wrong. Your sources are part of the campaign to discredit Nomgcobo Jiba. I confirm that if your sources were correct, they would have informed you that in June 2011 Nomgcobo attended the very same international conference of prosecutors association that you allege she opposed to. [Applause.]

QUESTION 216


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QUESTION 228

Question 216:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Deputy Speaker, to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, Ms A van Wyk, the building of new police stations and the effective use of the department's infrastructure budget is a priority for the department. Since the appointment of the new national commissioner, this matter has been receiving her attention. The SA Police Service's national management is contemplating handing back the construction of police stations to the Department of Public Works and has indicated that no final resolution has been taken on this matter.

The new national commissioner is currently in the process of consulting relevant role-players, reviewing the necessary documentation and considering the advantages and disadvantages that inform future decisions on the construction of police stations. The process shall be determined based on the outcome of the process mentioned above.

Ms A VAN WYK

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the answer. It is especially in our previously disadvantaged areas where the need for new police stations is the greatest. The lack of new police stations being built impacts heavily on service delivery by SAPS and our people are feeling unsafe in the affected areas. One of the contributing factors in delays is the provincial commissioners' determined priorities for the building of stations in the province. That priority changes every time a new provincial commissioner is appointed. Will the Deputy Minister and the Ministry consider centralising the priority list, with an input by provinces, to prevent the continuous shifting of the goalposts?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I agree with you. You must remember that I once presided over this committee and this issue has always been a challenge, especially when it comes to police stations in the rural areas. However, in addressing the specific concern you have, SAPS is in the process of reviewing the process of how police stations should be determined.

We agree with you that we must not allow a specific provincial commissioner to decide that station number so and so is number two on his or her priority list and then, when the new provincial commissioner takes over after three years, that commissioner decides that the very same station becomes priority number 29. We are therefore addressing that challenge, hon van Wyk. I promise you that in a few months we will have a concrete list on how to deal with outstanding police stations, especially in those rural communities.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD

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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for the history lesson. Those of us who work in the portfolio committee already know the information she has just given us. So, what I need to know is: what action are you going to take in the Ministry to ensure that the building of the hundreds of stations that we need actually takes place?

I presume you are aware that while the SAPS took over 10% of the building of stations in the past year, they managed to build the exact sum of zero. They built nothing. Admittedly, they took that 10% from the utterly defunct Ministry of Public Works, which does not do anything either. However, when they took over, they said they would build stations but they failed to do so.

I have to ask you for your forward plan. What are you going to do about this? Public Works does not work. SAPS does not work and should not, or cannot, build. What are you going to do? We know the history. Can we look forward, please?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, as I have said, the new national commissioner has just had a consultation forum with the Development Bank of SA, National Treasury and Public Works in order to find the solution to taking the process forward. The Minister of Public Works and I had a meeting about three weeks ago about the idea of forming a task team from the departments that I am talking about - National Treasury and the Department of Public Works - in order for us to pay attention to the building of police stations.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

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Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 191


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Minister, won't you agree that actually the building of police stations is supposed to be a function of the Department of Public Works, so that the police can do what they have to do? Given the fact that there has been a lot of corruption in supply chain management, when are you actually going to expedite the matter and make sure that this function is transferred to the appropriate department for building? Given the problem that the department has, talking a lot does not produce results.

Sesotho:

MOTLATSI WA LETONA LA SEPOLESA: Mohlomong ke tla tshwanela hore ke e bue ka Sesotho hore re utlwane.

English:

In my initial response to Miss Annelizé I indicated that we were engaged in a process ...

Sesotho:

... ya hore Mafapha ana ao re neng re sa a kenyelletsa tswelopeleng ena, a jwaloka Lefapha la Matlotlo la Naha le Dibanka tse Tswetseng pele tsa Afrika e ka Borwa, DBSA, re na le ditherisano le bona tsa hore re qale ho etsa mosebetsi wa ho ahwa ha diteishene. Ke ile ka ba ka bolela hore...

English:

... this decision has not been finalised between ourselves and the Department of Public Works. However, we will take a decision immediately after our meeting with National Treasury and the rest ...

Sesotho:

... ya hore na di ahwa ke rona kapa di ahwa ke bona na, feela ntho eo re batlang ho e bona ke seteishene sa mapolesa se ahilweng. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 191


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to ask the Deputy Minister a question in light of the admission by the Minister of Public Works that he is experiencing serious capacity problems in his department. Would you seriously consider other alternatives to expedite this process, because this has been going on for a very long time? One of the police stations that needs to be built - and was actually approved in 2002 - is in Nongoma.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Ntate Mncwango. I think ...

IsiXhosa:

Nditshilo ukuba izikhululo ezininzi bekufanele ukuba kudala zakhiwayo ...

English:

... because of the challenge that we have just raised, they have not been built. Even in my own residential area, in Bloemfontein, there is a station, Kagisanong, which was approved to be built in 2001. It has still not been built. So, I am saying that those are some of the challenges that we are trying to address between the Department of Public Works and ourselves.

QUESTION 207


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 192


QUESTION 216

Question 207:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE (on behalf of the Minister of Police): The Ministry of Police has been very firm in its stance that the department needs to look closely and constantly at its human resource development programme. This must be from recruitment to retirement, to ensure that the correct policies and procedures are in place to deal with all these processes.

Our promotion system is very much a part of this human resource development process. We need to make sure that we promote people through a clear career-pathing process. Promotion should be about effective career-pathing, rewarding diligence and hard work. We are aware and have informed the Portfolio Committee on Police late last year that we are not happy with the manner in which promotions were being effected in the Department of Police.

A number of specific cases of promotion have been referred to the Public Service Commission for further scrutiny and we await their findings on these cases. In addition to the cases referred to the PSC, the national commissioner is looking at both the appointments that have been made over the last period and at an effective recruitment, training and promotion procedure, which will then be implemented. We are also looking into the more effective use of the performance monitoring processes within SAPS, and this must inform future promotions.

Mnu V B NDLOVU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 192


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

IsiZulu:

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. Mhlonishwa, umbuzo wami ukuthi laba bantu abakhuphula abanye ezikhundleni ngokungemthetho ngoba beyizihlobo zabo, uma betholakala benecala kuzokwenziwa njani? Owesibili umbuzo uthi, laba asebekhushulelwe ezikhundleni bazoxoshwa yini bona?

IsiXhosa:

USEKELA MPHATHISWA WAMAPOLISA (Omele uMphathiswa wamaPolisa): Njengokuba senditshilo, Sekela-Somlomo, ukuthi...

English:

... we have given some of these cases over to the Public Service Commission, and we expect it to come up with the recommendations on how we should deal with those cases. We will then abide by the recommendations of the Public Service Commission.

Mr D J STUBBE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 192


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr D J STUBBE: The proof of nepotism and massive irregularity in the promotion of those connected to political heavyweights is comprehensive. Indeed, the Public Protector is conducting a full investigation into the matter for the DA. In the face of indifference on the part of the current Minister of Police, is there any intention to stop this practice or to reverse the damage that it has caused?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. We are saying that it is corruption when any member of the SA Police Service manipulates the promotion process. We therefore have policies in place that deal with corruption in the system. If members are found to have manipulated those processes, they will be dealt with accordingly.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 192


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Minister, Mme Makhotso Sotyu, Lieutenant General Richard Mdluli also appointed a lot of people and family members as operatives. Has action been taken about those who were appointed by Lieutenant General Mdluli? Are you going to be able to make the Public Service Commission's finding public, so that we know what the outcome is? And do you think that the regulation of SAPS that empowers the commissioner of police to make appointments willy-nilly is still relevant today against what is determined by the Department for the Public Service and Administration, DPSA?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Let me start with the issue of the regulations. The issue of regulation is relevant, but if a person is corrupt, then that person is corrupt. It doesn't matter how much you threaten them with laws. If someone is corrupt, he is corrupt. That one is still relevant. Regarding the specific cases that you mentioned, that is the package for the Public Service Commission. We won't hide anything. Of course we will let the nation know about any outcome emanating from the PSC.

Mrs P A MOCUMI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 192


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mrs P A MOCUMI: Hon Deputy Minister, promotion should serve as a process that rewards good work and performance. What measures will the Ministry put in place to ensure that the promotion process in the SAPS is an open and transparent process that serves as motivation and reward for good work?

Sesotho:

MOTLATSA LETONA WA SEPOLESA: Mme Mocumi, jwalokaha ke se ke boletse hore phamiso mosebetsing e tla dula e le teng e le phahamiso. Ebile, batho ba tshwanetseng hore ba phahamiswe mosebetsing ke batho ba tshwanelehang, ba loketsweng ke phahamiso eno. Ha ho na le motho ya tla fumantshwa hore o pahamisitswe ka hoba mohlomong a tswallana le Sotyu...

English:

... we will deal with that corrupt individual. People need to be promoted ...

Sesotho:

... ka tsela eo ba tshwanetseng ho phahamiswa ka yona. Ha e le hore batho ba sebedisa dipehelo tsena tsa rona ka tsela e fosahetseng re tla ba lokisa hobane ke bobodu bo fetelletseng ha phahamiso e etsahala ka tsela e jwalo. Ke a leboha.

QUESTION 229


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 193


QUESTION 207

Question 229:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, let me start by saying that in relation to the national uniform of the SA Defence Force, SANDF, the chiefs of services, namely the SA Army, the SA Navy, the SA Air Force, and SA Medical Service, can give permission to any person accorded honorary membership of the reserve forces to wear the uniform of the SANDF on stipulated occasions and according to regulations.

Secondly, pursuant to the policy obligation under the new legislation on military veterans, the Department of Defence and Military Veterans has commissioned the design and production of the new special uniform for military veterans, which is distinctly not military. This uniform can be worn by military veterans at functions and occasions where there is a desire to profile their presence. [Applause.]

Mr M G P LEKOTA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 193


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, I must welcome the reply that has been supplied. May I therefore follow up this way: Deputy Minister, is it correct that no one may use any uniform of their choice and parade as a private security or law enforcement agent, under the pretence that they are veterans?

I am referring to the Thohoyandou incident In particular, where the President was to deliver the Nelson Mandela lecture. Some individuals who were there appeared in public in military fatigues that are not prescribed under the laws of our land. They pretended to enforce the law by assaulting and driving members of the public out of the hall where the President was to deliver the lecture. Is it correct that that is unlawful in terms of our law?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, as things stand right now there is no legislation that precludes any group of individuals from using combat fatigues of their choice as an organisation. As a matter of fact, in the private security industry many companies are using combat fatigues as their uniform. Not only that, there are paramilitary organisations that are known in South Africa, like the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, AWB, that wear these paramilitary uniforms. It is common practice because as we speak there is no legislation that prohibits that kind of practice.

I'm aware that at the commencement of the integration process, when the SANDF was formed in 1994, it was a popular view that the wearing of combat fatigues – and this was in relation to the integration of military organisations - was not considered desirable going forward. However, no legislation was put in place to make this illegal.

As to whether military veterans may act as a law enforcement agency or not, I think it's just common knowledge that no organisation except those that are recognised by law can enforce the law. [Applause.]

Mr S ESAU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 193


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS

Mr S ESAU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to put a question, but before I do there are three issues I would like to raise: Firstly, there is clearly a lacuna in terms of the Defence Act, which refers to former defence members who may only wear appropriate civilian dress. Secondly, there is a lacuna in terms of the SA Military Veterans' Association, Samva, which is an umbrella organisation that does not have a code of ethics governing that particular dress.

Thirdly, in terms of international best practice, there are strict rules and regulations in the wearing of any military camouflage uniform that speak to the issue of bringing a defence force into disrepute and undermining the state.

I therefore put this question: Would the Deputy Minister consider amending the Defence Act, Act 42 of 2002, to prevent military veterans belonging to any formation from protesting and marching in military camouflage uniforms? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Firstly, Deputy Speaker, let me clarify that the law does not allow any South African to wear the national uniform of the SANDF, which is different from any kind of combat fatigue available commercially out there.

There is a national combat fatigue of the SANDF. No person who is not a member of the defence force is allowed to wear it. I think that is clear. As to whether there is desirability for the law to preclude the wearing of combat fatigues by any other organisation or not is a matter that we can look into.

In relation to the military uniform that is worn by the military veterans, let me also say that military veterans wearing that uniform will be expected by the department to conduct themselves in keeping with the ethos and values of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans, as constituted by the law. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 193


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS

IsiZulu:

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sekela likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa, ilungu la leNdlu lagqoka umfaniswano lingakaze liqeqeshwe nakancane nje, lingakaze libe yisosha. Ubuthini-ke, mhlonishwa? Ubuthi wayinikwa ngubani-ke imvume lowo?

ISEKELA LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELA KANYE NEZIGAGAYI ZEZEMPI: Sekela Somlomo, njengoba besengichazile ukuthi akekho umuntu onelungelo lokugqoka umfaniswano woMbutho wezokuVikela waseNingizimu Afrika. Angazi-ke ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile lisho ukuthi lelo lungu elikhuluma ngalo laligqoke umfaniswano woMbutho wezokuVikela waseNingizimu Afrika na noma laligqoke nje umfaniswano?

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Yebo. [Uhleko.]

ISEKELA LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELA KANYE NEZIGAGAYI ZEZEMPI: Uma lelo lungu ... [Ubuwelelele.] Ngingaqhubeka, Sekela Somlomo? Uma ilungu lelo laligqoke umfaniswano woMbutho wezokuVikela waseNingizimu Afrika, kusho ukuthi lelo lungu laliwugqoke lowo mfaniswano njengelungu lama-honorary reserve forces.

English:

There are civilians who are allowed and are accorded the status of honorary members of the SANDF as members of the reserve force. Under those circumstances, the regulation permits it. It is allowed. [Applause.]

QUESTION 218


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 194


QUESTION 229

Question 218:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Deputy Speaker, all former members of official - and I underline "official" - nonstatutory forces that were integrated into the SANDF in 1994, namely uMkhonto weSizwe and the Azanian People's Liberation Army, Apla, have been considered for the awarding of military veterans medals, as announced in our budget debate this year.

The Air Force Base Bloemspruit parade on 2 August 2012 was the first of these parades. They will first cover all former members of uMkhonto weSizwe as part of the observance of the 50th anniversary of MK, and will then proceed to honour former members of the Apla on an appropriate occasion, one that is relevant to the history of Apla.

Mr M S MOTIMELE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 194


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS

Mr M S MOTIMELE: Deputy Speaker, the question has been sufficiently answered. Thank you, Deputy Minister.

Mr M G P LEKOTA

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 194


Mr M S MOTIMELE

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Deputy Speaker, I just want to make an inquiry from the Deputy Minister. I didn't notice - and if I am wrong I stand to be corrected - whether Gen Sandile Sejake was one of those former MK senior members decorated at Bloemfontein? I really want to ask you this. If not, why not?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, the member in question is indeed a bona fide member of uMmkhonto weSizwe. He was not among those who received medals at the Bloemspruit parade. The Bloemspruit parade, as I have just said, was the first in a series of parades that will still be conducted to honour military veterans.

Let me just explain, if hon members can allow me the opportunity to do so. The issuing of medals at the Bloemspruit parade mainly recognised uMkhonto weSizwe's first generation; those who were involved in the sabotage campaign and, mainly, the national high command, as arrested at Rivonia, and the regional commands that were established under national command throughout the country. If hon members looked at the set of names of the people who received those medals, they would appreciate that. [Applause.]

Added to that, the other category - outside of the first generation that received medals - are those who belonged to the Luthuli Detachment, and only those identified as appropriate recipients of the Medal for Bravery, Gold, Class 1. The other categories are still going to follow.

QUESTION 223


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 195


QUESTION 218

Question 223:

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the answer is yes. I have consulted with the President, and, in due course, the head of the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, will be appointed. It is being considered as we speak and, naturally, this is an issue of national importance. So the nation will be informed about the new head.

Mrs D A SCHÄFER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 195


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Minister, I thank you for your answer, and I am very glad to hear that. My concern is your words "in due course".

Since Adv Mokhatla has been the acting head, she has reinstated Miseria Nyathi as the head of Business Support, contrary to the SIU's own legal advice; she has stopped a disciplinary hearing in respect of the Western Cape head of the SIU; she hardly ever holds executive committee meetings; and she is rumoured to be on the verge of suspending the corporate lawyer who was involved in the termination of Nyathi's employment last year. I am sure the Minister will say that this is also a smear campaign, but there is enough evidence to the contrary.

Will the Minister undertake to do everything in his power to speed up the appointment of a new head that will restore stability and credibility to the SIU?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I am very conscious of those issues, and I assure the hon member that the issue of the appointment is imminent. As I have already indicated, it will be communicated to the public. I am also aware of the decisions that he has taken thus far on all the issues that we have raised, and I think we will take them as they come.

Mr D A KGANARE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 195


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr D A KGANARE: Hon Deputy Speaker, when Willie Hofmeyr was removed as the head of the SIU, it was said that it was because he could not be the head of both the SIU and the Asset Forfeiture Unit, AFU. However, Adv Nomvula Mokhatla has been allowed to be the Deputy National Director of Public Prosecutions and also act as the SIU's head, so she has been doing exactly what Willie Hofmeyr was doing.

Hon Minister, will you please tell us the real reason why Willie Hofmeyr was removed and whether he was given a choice about which position he wanted to keep?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think I have answered this question before. Willie Hofmeyr was never removed. What happened is that he was first employed as the National Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions and, when the term of office of former Judge Heath expired, he then became the head of the SIU.

This is an issue that I have been dealing with since 2009, together with the NPA and Mr Willie Hofmeyr. So, he has been focusing on the job that he has been employed for with his concurrence. It's not that he was just removed. If there was any insinuation that he has been removed, that is not so.

On the issue of Ms Mokhatla, a series of events just conspired at the time and made us, in particular the President, appoint her. At that time, we thought it was going to be for a short duration. If you remember, the reason for her appointment was that Menzi Simelane had asked for long leave while the issue was before our courts. So, I tried to explain that issue.

As we speak, the appointment of the new head is being considered in line with the decision that those people who had been appointed as prosecutors needed to focus on their jobs. So, Ms Mokhatla will not be an exception.

Mr L T LANDERS

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 195


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr L T LANDERS: Through you, Deputy Speaker, as you know well, hon Minister, this matter is part of the report of the justice portfolio committee that has been given to you.

Arising from the reply of the hon Minister, given the ANC's stated commitment to fighting corruption in all forms, and given that the SIU forms an integral and strategic part of that fight against corruption, will the hon Minister agree that the appointment of Adv Mokhatle as the acting head while she already holds another strategic and important position, is an unhealthy situation that must be corrected to provide certainty in that unit?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: As I indicated in my previous response, I would not describe it as unhealthy. What I can say, however, is that it is considered not preferable for one person to hold the two important positions. It is for that reason that the appointment of a new head of the SIU is being considered by the President as we speak, in order to bring about normality in that institution.

Mrs D A SCHÄFER

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 195


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Madam Speaker, can I just have clarity on the Minister's statement about Mr Hofmeyr. Is he saying that Mr Hofmeyr was never officially appointed as the head of the SIU in terms of the Special Investigating Unit Act, because if he was, he would not have been removed?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: No, that is not what I said. I said that when he was appointed at that time - that is, before Judge Heath's term of office had expired - he was in fact appointed in terms of the Special Investigating Unit Act. So, if a different impression was created, I regret it, but he was appointed in accordance with the law of the Special Investigating Unit and Special Tribunals Act of 1996, I think.

QUESTION 217


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


QUESTION 223

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have been informed that Question 219 has been withdrawn. We therefore proceed to Question 217, which has been asked by hon Molebatsi to the Minister of Police. I now call upon the hon Deputy Minister.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, may we enquire what the reason was for the withdrawal of the question as printed on the Order Paper?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I don't have the reasons in front of me. Thank you very much. You can get that answer later, but I don't have it here in front of me.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Surely, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have to know why you are withdrawing a question.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The reason I ask is that we put in a similar question, which was refused because this question was already on the Order Paper.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I said I don't have the answer. This is why I said I have been informed, which means the question might have been withdrawn after consultation between the Speaker and the Table, and I am sitting here now with no answer to your question. I will ask after this session and you will get the answer then. At the moment, I am calling on the Deputy Minister to answer this question.

QUESTION 217

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Question 217:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, a multidisciplinary recruitment strategy was developed and implemented with the aim to enable the SA Police Service, as an employer, to recruit and retain sufficient employees with appropriate competencies by means of specially designed systems of recruitment and selection while simultaneously ensuring the standardisation of the recruitment process, selection and enlistment of entry-level police trainees at all organisational levels within the SA Police; to ensure the timeous appointment of the most suitable candidates through a targeted recruitment approach, which is a community-based approach to recruitment, selection and enlistment; to eliminate risk with regard to corruption, nepotism, discrimination and injuries during recruitment and selection processes; and to ensure that the broader pool of candidates are reached through various recruitment techniques, such as radio, social networks, newspapers, community meetings, career exhibitions, distribution of recruitment brochures, further education and training, FET, colleges, open days at the SAPS Academy, visits to tertiary institutions, etc.

With the new approach adopted by the SAPS with regard to community-based recruitment, community-based organisations such as the Community Policing Forums, schools and churches will also be engaged during the communication phase to attract applicants from local communities. Maybe we should also consider using the Parliamentary Constituency Offices for those who might not have access to the above-mentioned institutions.

Mme M A MOLEBATSI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Setswana:

Mme M A MOLEBATSI: Mmusakgotla, ke a leboga gape le mme Motlatsatona MmeMmakgotso. Ke tsweletse ka go botsa potso ya ka gape ke re:

English:

Will the Deputy Minister consider that during the basic training process further evaluation of the suitability of student constables take place, for example, aptitude and psychological tests, and that those could serve as a further sift for the recruitment of police officers?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker and hon Molebatsi, yes, we do have wellness programmes in our training facilities. To mention a few, we have psychological assessment tests, we have social workers in place to deal with social problems, and spiritual services are also available at our training facilities in order for us to have fit members of the SAPS.

Mr V B NDLOVU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker and Deputy Minister, in your recruitment intake there are people who are not supposed to be police officers. Is there any problem or challenge with vetting these people when they enter the Security cluster?

IsiXhosa:

USEKELA MPHATHISWA WAMAPOLISA: Enkosi Sekela Somlomo, Bab'uNdlovu yiyo lo nto siye sayitshintsha inkqubo esenza ngayo.

English:

You know, previously, when we recruited for the police, we said driver's license and Standard 10, and that was all. If you were fit, you could join the police. However, we changed that strategy. You are aware that we changed the strategy two to three years ago and placed emphasis on community involvement because ...

IsiXhosa:

Sayisoyika ukuba [we were afraid that] ...

English:

... if you came to us and applied to become a police officer, we only looked at your fitness, your Standard 10 certificate and driver's license, only to discover that you were already in the system, ukuthi siphethe isigwinta apha [that we have a crook here] because we didn't know where this person came from. Hence, we are saying that the communities must play a key role because this child is from a community. Therefore, churches, communities and everybody should be part of recruitment, so that we recruit the right people into our system.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Deputy Speaker, we were informed in the Portfolio Committee on Police that the SAPS has been instructed by Treasury to lose 9 000 members through natural attrition. So, are the few positions that would be allowed annually by the Treasury to be filled going to be specifically head-hunted specialists to deal with, for example, the implementation of the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill, should that Bill ever come before the Portfolio Committee on Police. I think we have been waiting for years now. We need specialist scientists, for example, as they are leaving our laboratories. If we are not allowed to head-hunt specialist scientists, what are we going to do? By "suitable" I am hoping that the hon Molebatsi meant "qualified".

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, I am very sorry to say to the hon member that I don't know what she is talking about when she refers to the 9 000 members. All I know is that we, as SAPS, are busy head-hunting and recruiting people with special skills for our forensic laboratories. That is all we know. We don't know about 9 000 that is supposed to be cut.

Mr J B SIBANYONI: Deputy Speaker, my question is on Question 209.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Then you pressed early.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 196


The DEPUTY SPEAKER

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, still on the Police, I am asking a follow-up question. Deputy Minister, Mofumahadi MaKhotso Sotyu ...

Sesotho:

A ke o theole moya. Ekare o kgenne. Ke ne ke batla ho botsa hore haele mona o tla kenyelletsa setjhaba ho thaotha bana ba tlang ho kena Sepoleseng. Ekaba o na le leano la hore le kamoso, o tla sebedisa setjhaba nakong eo ho etswang tekolo ho lekola hore na ebe mapolesa ana a sebetsa hantle setjhabeng? Ho etsahalang ha jwale ke hore ba kenyelletswa nakong eo bana ba hirwang empa ha ho etswa tekolo, ha ho tekolo ya hore lepolesa lena leo e leng sekweta le sebetsa jwang kapa o tla nyoloha a fumane bohato bo bong sepoleseng. Ekaba ntlha eo e ile ya shejwa?

Sesotho:

MOTLATSA-LETONA LA SEPOLESA: Ke a leboha ntate Ramatlakane, ke lebohela tlhahiso e jwalo hobane ke seo re se thabelang hore ha bana bana ba se ba sebetsa diteisheneng, e be setjhaba sa moo ke sona se re bolellang hore tjhee, ngwana enwa ha a etse tsona hobane rona re ke ke ra ba hohle. Ke kahoo re kgothaletsang hore le dikarolo tsa rona tsa tshebetso, di kenyeletse batho ba setjhaba hore ha bana bana ba senya, re tsebe rona re le baetapele ba bona. Ke a leboha ntate. [Mahofi.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. I think I must respond to the Chief Whip of the Opposition, the hon Watson, since we are dealing with the last question. I am informed that the question was withdrawn by the member who put the question, who has the right to withdraw it. So, the question was withdrawn by the member.

QUESTION 222


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 197


QUESTION 217

Question 222:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: The contract for security companies was not terminated. The contract expired on 30 June 2012 and the SAPS chose not to establish a new contract for those services again. The SAPS has called on reservists to perform guard duty at identified SAPS premises for an interim period of four months, from 29 June to 01 November 2012.

A total number of 3 650 reservists were called on to perform the above-mentioned duties at SAPS premises, including premises at head office, provincial and police station levels. The call-up of police reservists to perform these guard duties was co-ordinated by the SAPS at national level.

The SAPS is in the process of verifying and consolidating the final number of reservists and SAPS members, if any, called up to perform guard duties at SAPS premises. The final number will be communicated in writing as soon as it is available.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 197


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Madam Deputy Speaker, the reality is that the contracts for the private security companies and the cleaners were scrapped because Cosatu told the Minister to. The Minister and the Ministry have successfully thrown hundreds - if not thousands, because no one has given us the number yet - of breadwinners out of work. This is because of the fact that they couldn't pay dues to Cosatu-affiliated unions. Do you intend to take any responsibility for the thousands put out of work or are they just going to be considered collateral damage?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, it is so amazing ...

IsiXhosa:

... ukuba abantu beli lizwe balibala ngokukhawuleza okungaka.

English:

It was not long ago when members were complaining about government institutions being guarded by private security companies. It was not long ago when members were complaining about the plight of the reservists in the police because they did not have any source of income and some of them were not even safe to work in the police. Now that we are trying to address this, people are coming with other issues because they have their own interest – what, we do not know. I am not going to talk on behalf of Cosatu here because I'm not a spokesperson for Cosatu.

Secondly, no SAPS members are guarding any institution of government. The only institutions of government that are being guarded by members of SAPS are our forensic laboratories, Parliament and airports. You cannot let police stations be guarded by security guards. [Applause.]

Mr D J STUBBE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 197


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr D J STUBBE: Madam Deputy Speaker, regarding the refusal to take on any more reservists, presumably we are hoping that they'll die or resign because there can be no other explanation for the bizarre on, off, on again moratorium. There may not be many left to guard the gates at stations. The National Commissioner of Police informed us that this was a job opportunity for young people. I must ask if you intend paying young people to guard the gates, in fact replacing contract workers with contract workers. How has Cosatu agreed to allow you to do this?

IsiXhosa:

USEKELA MPHATHISWA WAMAPOLISA: Hayi andisingosolomo kaCosatu tatomkhulu.

English:

I am not going to respond to that. What I am saying is that we have, of course, created employment for reservists because we are taking them on as full-time members in the police - but not under the South African Police Service Act, Act 68 of 1995. We are taking them on as employees in the SAPS because they did not have jobs. They have jobs now. We started with 3 650 people and we are looking forward to employing more. [Interjections.] We do not consider age when hiring people, saying your age makes you useless so we will not use you. As long as you are willing to work and meet the requirements, we will use you. [Interjections.]

Mnu L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 197


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

IsiXhosa:

Mnu L RAMATLAKANE: Sukubhabhazela sisi.

English:

Deputy Minister, what I wanted to ask is a follow-up to your question. I know that most of the reservists have been doing quite valuable work in the police, not only the work of looking after property. Have you looked at the implications of permanent, static work in terms of whether it is going to affect your force level when you deploy them in various places? Lastly, there was talk about transferring some of the old Defence Force members into the police service to do this kind of work. Has that work been completed?

Sesotho:

MOTLATSI WA LETONA LA SEPOLESA: Ke tla qala ka ho araba potso ya pele. Ke ile ka hlalosa hore ha se sebaka se seng le se seng se tla diswa ke mapolesa a fetotsweng balebedi. Ke dibaka tse itseng feela tseo sena se tla etsahalang ho tsona. Dibaka tseo o buang ka tsona moo ho diswang matlo a Matona le a Bakomishenara ba Baholo le tse ding tse jwalo, re tla nne re sebedise mapolesa ao a ntseng a le moo. Haesale mapolesa ao a ntse a le dibakeng tseo, kahoo re ke ke ra tshwenyana le tshebetso ya bona.

English:

We won't interfere with them; they will still be there. But there are specific institutions of government that will be guarded by the reservists ...

Sesotho:

...bao re tla be re ba entse balebedi. Ha ke a utlwa potso ya hao ya bobedi hore e ne e reng na, ke mohau. Re tla e bua ha re le babedi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Are there any further supplementary questions? There are no further supplementary questions. The next question, which is Question 2 on the Question Paper, falls away in terms of Rule 117, which states that if a reply is provided before 12:00 on the Question Day, the question may not be called in the House. That has happened. The next question ...

Mrs J D KILLIAN: Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Yes, hon member?

Mrs J D KILIAN: On a point of information to the House, we are very happy that we had to compel the hon Minister to reply. That question had been on the Order Paper for Written Reply for several months. We are very happy that this Rule has now forced the Minister ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, the reply has been provided, in terms of the Rules. The next question is Question 211, asked by the hon Gaum to the Minister of Home Affairs.

QUESTION 211


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 198


QUESTION 222

Question 211:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, with respect to part (a) of the question, in the Minister's reply to Question 1631 on 8 August, the Minister alluded to the fact that discussions with the British High Commission would resume once the Olympics had been finalised. As we all know, the Olympics has just ended. We shall resume discussions with our counterparts in due course.

With regard to section (b), the Department of Home Affairs is negotiating with the following countries to do away with, or to ease visa requirements for all levels of passport holders. The two countries that are currently in negotiations with us are Latvia and Lithuania.

Adv A H GAUM

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 198


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS

Afrikaans:

Adv A H GAUM: Adjunkminister, ek dink ons sal almal saamstem dat die streng visumvereistes van lande soos Brittanje 'n groot struikelblok is vir Suid-Afrikaners wat gereeld moet reis, en interaksie tussen Suid-Afrika en Brittanje belemmer.

Terwyl 'n mens aanvaar dat lande soos Brittanje nie sommer oornag visumvereistes sal laat vaar nie, kan daar nie intussen met sulke lande beding word vir die verslapping van die vereistes nie, byvoorbeeld, dat visums teen 'n laer koste en vir langer periodes – byvoorbeeld 10 jaar, soos in die geval van Amerika – uitgereik kan word nie?

Tweedens, in die lig daarvan dat ons nou ook die Brics samewerking het, behoort die regering nie ook die verwydering van visumvereistes tussen Brics-lande as 'n prioriteit te beskou nie?

Die ADJUNKMINISTER VAN BINNELANDSE SAKE: My Afrikaans is nie so goed nie ...

English:

... so if you don't mind, hon member, I'll attempt to respond in English.

We certainly do agree that a range of issues – which may very well include the things that you are suggesting – need to be discussed with our British counterparts, but we also don't want to pre-empt any such negotiations with our counterparts, if that's in order. I assume that you will be understanding of that.

As to the issue of priorities, with regard to those countries where we are indeed consolidating very sound international relationships, yes, they certainly do feature among the countries that we will try to prioritise. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a sausage machine and almost a first-come first-served type of situation. Clearly there are certain vested interests that we would need to protect and, as part of consolidating our overall international relationships with those countries, we will certainly pursue the relaxation of visas, on a reciprocal basis, with some vigour.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 198


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chair, the fact that Britain found it necessary to impose visa requirements on South Africans visiting their country is an indictment of the rampant corruption in this department. Therefore, what measures, procedures and processes is the Ministry implementing to ensure that we are seen to be a secure and safe country when it comes to visa requirements, the easing thereof, and even doing away with those requirements altogether?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I can't presume to speak for anybody other than the South African government, and so I wouldn't know what led to the implementation of those requirements. As to the perception that you allude to, hon member, I don't imagine that anybody would want to negotiate with us if that were the perception that they had of South Africa. As it is, we have firm commitments to negotiate around these issues and, as I said previously, we intend pursuing them with some vigour.

Mr N J J KOORNHOF

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 198


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS

Mr N J J KOORNHOF: Chair, I think South Africans spent almost R150 million on visa fees last year just to visit the United Kingdom. That is money that we could have spent in this country in a far better way. So this is a serious matter. Can the hon Deputy Minister assure us that they will not come back and say that they are not happy with the security of our passports and that is why they are returning this whole issue back to the department?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I am unfortunately unable to give the hon member any assurances as to what the British government may or may not say. As I have said, I speak only for the South African government. As far as we are concerned, there should be absolutely no reason why there should not be reciprocity from any country where we do not require visas from their nationals. That is the position we have and that is the position we will pursue. Of course, as to what the eventual outcome will be on that matter – we will get to that bridge and we will cross it at that point.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 198


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: House Chair, just to follow up on her assurance that she speaks on behalf of the South African government, can the Deputy Minister assure this House that what had been a concern for Britain before – around the problem concerning the reliability of our passports – has now been addressed? Is it an issue that will no longer arise, given the systems that we have put in place to deal with it? There was also a previous debate concerning Gijima – the company that was responsible for the credit card visa issue – and that matter was supposed to be debated and resolved. Can you reassure this House that that issue has been resolved? Can you also provide this House with some information about the golden handshake that was given to Gijima in order for them to exit this credit card visa contract for not delivering in terms of that contract?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, the issue of the smart card is certainly a matter that would resolve any outstanding concerns that people have with regard to the integrity of our systems. The hon member has the assurance that one of the positive aspects of the new ID smart card will be that, by and large, we will process those cards in-house and we will not be using consultants for that.

As to golden handshakes and so on, we have not moved away from any legal aspect – which you seem to be insinuating in your question. Of that I can give you an assurance. We have done nothing illegal. Whatever we did would have been done within the parameters of the law. That is the philosophy that we imbue in the department. In any case, it's certainly not something that we would be able to do by law. There was no golden handshake.

QUESTION 208


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 199


QUESTION 211

Question 208:

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chairperson, I thank hon Ndlovu for the question he has posed. The Department of Correctional Services entered into a contract with a service provider in 2005-06 with a view to the provision of nutrition services to inmates in our biggest centres in eight management areas in our country. This was occasioned by the rapid overcrowding and the increase in inmates in these major centres during the period mentioned above in the Western Cape, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.

These facilities accommodate approximately 47 421 inmates, which represent 41% of the current inmate population in the country. After a decision was taken to in-source nutrition services, structures were put in place to ensure that the department moves towards in-sourcing of nutrition services for the management areas concerned. The contract in its current form expires in 2013.

However, the termination will be dependent on the state of readiness of all management areas identified above. This would be monitored on a monthly basis. The key issues we have regarding the impact on nutrition services are the verification and auditing of all the assets of the current service provider, cost and functionality and value for money for the Department of Correctional Services.

The training of offenders and officials earmarked to provide services in accordance with industry best practice and accreditation and the refurbishment of kitchens must be completed according to the required standards. However, this is hugely dependent on the third party's involvement in the proposed upgrades, namely Public Works, which also depends on contractors.

As agreed with the portfolio committee, the Department of Correctional Services is committed to providing progress reports on measures of in-sourcing nutrition, which will determine the way forward with the current service provider's contract. The report will include, among others, reports of the department's preparation with regard to contracts for perishable and nonperishable products.

Mnu V B NDLOVU

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 199


The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES

IsiZulu:

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, mhlonishwa sivumelene siyikomidi ukuthi izinkontileka zokuphekela iziboshwa ziyaphela ekupheleni konyaka. Manje la enginengqinamba khona, la umhlonishwa engafuni ukuphumela khona obala athi qekelele, ukuthi njengoba sivumelene sekusele izinyanga ezintathu kuphele unyaka, sekukuphi ngempela manje? Ngibuza ngoba uzokhumbula ukuthi le nkontileka ike yangenwa umkhono nesiphanga la kungafanele khona. Sayibona isingaphakathi isidla imali kahulumeni, singazange sivumelane.

Kulokhu-ke, umhlonishwa ingabe ubiye kahle yini ukuze kwenzeke ukuthi le nkontileka ingene ngesango elifanele?

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLUNYELELISWA KWEZIMILO: Ngiyabonga lungu elihloniphekile, empeleni kumele kube nemibiko ...

English:

... as soon as the portfolio committee is ready to receive them on a regular basis ...

IsiZulu:

... ukuze kwazeke ukuthi kukuphi manje ngoba ngeke usuke nje uthi kulezi khungo zokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo eziyisishagalombili okuyizona ezineziboshwa eziningi, ngingathi nje izi-47 000. Uma ungasuka uthi, iyagcina ngoMfumfu 31 noma ngoMasingana 31 kodwa ubungalungisile kahle ukuthi ...

English:

... what is going to happen the following day: they have dinner tonight, then you cut the service, and what will then happen for breakfast? All facilities and assets belong to the existing service providers. The information we were dealing with yesterday was not accurate in that respect. Some of those assets belong to them ...

IsiZulu:

... kuyalungiswa ukuze kuhleleke ukuthi ...

English:

... by the time they withdraw we will be ready to provide. The agreement is there, and we are now in the process of doing that. I think the portfolio committee needs to give itself the opportunity to receive the report that it commissioned.

Adv L H MAX

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 199


The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES

Adv L H MAX: House Chairperson, it is common cause, hon Minister, that these Busasa contracts were created to enrich individuals.

An HON MEMBER: Hear, hear!

Adv L H MAX: Secondly, we heard what you actually told this House about the termination of contracts. These contracts were supposed to have been terminated earlier this year, but then your department and management extended them for another year. Now, the question is this: I foresee, given your answer to this House, that come 31 January 2013, there will be an excuse, for whatever reason, why the contract cannot be terminated, and taxpayers' money will again be spent on this fruitless exercise. Are you in a position, regarding the prospect I have just given, to assure this House that under your watch there will be no extension of any of these Busasa contracts? [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chairperson, I think we should be quite concrete here. It is indeed common cause that these contracts have not been renewed in the regular sense, except for the period up to the end of the year, to 31 January, or to whenever we shall be ready. Can you imagine the situation at Victor Verster Prison, at Pollsmoor, or anywhere, should you say that the contractor must end its services on a particular day and you are not actually ready to take over that service? As a result, there would be no breakfast the following day. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Let us give the Minister the opportunity to respond to the supplementary question.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: No, it is fine. I think that we should all give ourselves an opportunity. We are talking about a contract that started in 2005. We are on top of this situation. We have informed ourselves of what is going on, and we want to take the portfolio committee with us. They should have the report they commissioned in order to know where the progress is at now. In so doing, they will know in September whether they will be ready in November or in January. It is no use to speculate about what may happen.

Mr S ABRAM

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 199


The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, the response by the hon Minister is in line with the view strongly held by the portfolio committee that the self-sufficiency of our correctional centres must be promoted; so that skills can be developed and inmates can utilise their time in incarceration meaningfully; making reintegration smoother when they are released back into society. We therefore welcome the response by the hon Minister and trust that he will ensure that the timelines will be kept. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): That was no supplementary question, but if the hon Minister wants to respond to that statement, he may do so. The next supplementary question is by the hon Ramatlakane.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 199


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: House Chair, with respect to this question, Minister, it is shocking to hear that response. I asked your predecessor the same question late last year. She assured this House that there was an exit strategy; that it was already taking place and was being implemented then, not in 2013. She gave a list of contracts that should have come to an end. Now it appears that, actually, it is not so. Why should we believe that what you are saying now will actually happen, because the goalposts shift from one Minister to another? This is about Busasa and the corruption linked with the Busasa contract. Can you assure us now that your predecessors misled Parliament? [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chairperson, I said the portfolio committee was at liberty to get a progress report on our preparedness to effect this transfer. The agreement has been made. The contract was awarded in 2005. How, then, do we effect an exit strategy for Pollsmoor, which is in three phases; for Patensie in the Eastern Cape; for Umzinto; for Johannesburg Medium A and B, and all those places? I am sure you are not looking for a situation where inmates have food today and no food tomorrow. It would be irresponsible for anyone in this House to suggest that we should just do it for the sake of doing it without being prepared.

Let us give ourselves an opportunity. In September we will submit a progress report so that all of us, reading from the same page, will know how far we are. We will know where we are by October, November, December, and so forth. No one has misled the House. The report by Minister Mapisa-Nqakula was correct and we are making progress precisely on that. There is no change of policy; it is the same ANC. [Applause.]

QUESTION 213


UNREVISED HANSARD

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Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 200


QUESTION 208

Question 213:

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Chair, the overall goal of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, on regional economic integration is to facilitate trade and the financial liberalisation, competition and diversification of industrial development; to increase investment for deeper regional integration; and the eradication of poverty through the establishment of the SADC common market. The SADC Regional Indicative Strategic Development Plan, RISDP, which is currently under review under the leadership of the hon Minister Rob Davies on behalf of South Africa, has indeed outlined the indicative timelines to establish a SADC free-trade area by 2008; a SADC customs union by 2010; a SADC common market by 2015; and a SADC monetary union by 2016.

I think all this, and the relevant timelines, were based on how we should work together to accelerate industrialisation and our capacity to manufacture goods and services in our respective countries. Equally important would be adhering to timelines that also take into consideration our state of readiness to be able to sell goods and services to each other. So, at the end of the day, South Africa should not be seen as just being happy with ourselves, our industrial output and manufacturing capability, and not working together to make sure that other countries also develop such mechanisms.

It is one thing to want to adhere to timeframes. However, it must also be noted that, as we review this RISDP, in the same process, we ought to look at accelerating the free-trade area of SADC. This has to be undertaken with the customs union and also the Comesa-EAC-SADC Tripartite FTA. These matters have also largely been debated and looked at by the latest SADC summit, which took place in Mozambique.

As political leaders, we should also just remember that all these plans happened and leaders made commitments prior to the global economic and financial meltdown. So, we have a responsibility to review these plans, but also, above all, to remember that the timeframes and timelines are perfect. However, we should consider issues around the beneficiation of the natural resources that we have so that we would be able to accelerate our free trade through making sure that all SADC member states have things to sell in their neighbourhoods. It must not be just a one-way traffic system.

In addition, to implement the SADC's customs union, we need to look at what lessons we are learning from the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, which is 100 years old. It must not just be about focusing on revenue sharing, on receipts, but also making sure that we make use of those resources to fast-track integration through infrastructure building in our continent to facilitate the free movement of goods and services. We must go on the offensive regarding manufacturing and industrialisation and, as the president of one country says, stop being exporters of raw materials. By doing that, we become donors to those who have the historical capability to manufacture. We must all focus on an undertaking to beneficiate our raw, natural resources, which are not infinite.

Mr E M SULLIMAN

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 200


The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION

Mr E M SULLIMAN: Thank you, hon House Chair. Thank you, Minister, for the comprehensive response, which underscores one of the key pillars of the African Agenda: the consolidation of regional economic blocs.

Competitive and diversified industrial development and increased investment are fundamental to poverty eradication and employment creation. We therefore can never overemphasise the need for fast-tracking the establishment of the SADC customs union, challenges of overlaps notwithstanding. All contending views considered, is the hon Minister convinced that member countries hold a shared vision in relation to the SADC customs union and will they collectively expedite the process of its establishment?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: As the hon Sulliman has rightfully said, we firstly need to eradicate, or do away with, all the impediments, including working on those overlaps he referred to.

Secondly, for us to have a sound SADC customs union, we need to make sure that other member states work on their industrialisation and manufacturing capability, so that we know what it is that would become the building blocks of this customs union. We need to facilitate and accelerate infrastructure build through our plans, so that we have free movement of goods and services. However, we must also make sure that goods are manufactured in our area. It shouldn't be, for example, that a member state becomes an expert in making sure that goods from other parts of the world are transported to a SADC member country, quickly repackaged and thrown into the market as a product of that particular country, just to take advantage of the arrangements of the SADC customs union.

So, those are the issues we are looking at. Is there a shared vision? Of course, yes. That's why we need to make sure of all the elements and the pillars that would make this SADC customs union work. We are focusing on the implementation of the free-trade agreement, or area, of SADC, but also the acceleration of the SADC-EAC-Comesa free trade agreement, which I referred to. This would include all sub-Saharan African member countries, save for the Maghreb. This will then indeed respond to the work and vision of our African Agenda, which is to make sure that, in the end, SADC becomes a good regional economic community that contributes positively to the African Agenda of integrating the economies of all on our continent.

Mr N J J KOORNHOF

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 200


The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION

Mr N J J KOORNHOF: Hon Minister, I hope that your negotiators, or the government's negotiators, will learn the lesson that a monetary union without a fiscal policy union is problematic. We have seen what happened in Europe. So, I want to ask you: Is it not problematic that the European Union is busy negotiating economic partnership agreements, the so-called Epas, with some of these member states? Is that not hampering progress in your negotiations at this stage?

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Hon House Chair, I think in line with our vision to continue building on the African Agenda, we have also learnt what not to copy. Our region has its own uniqueness - our region, as in SADC, and our continent, Africa. We are not in any great rush. We are doing things our own way. Maybe the European Union is also quietly learning some lessons from what we are doing, which is to look at resolving our own African challenges using African solutions. There is no copying. The African Union was never meant to be a copycat of the European Union. So, as I said earlier on, we are also learning what not to do from the mistakes they made and from the lessons learned from their own current challenges.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. hon Minister. Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard.

NOTICES OF MOTION


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION QUESTIONS

NOTICES OF MOTION

Prof B TUROK: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates celebrating the legacy of the ANC president general, James Sebe Moroka, who presided over the ANC from 1949 to 1952.

Mrs S P KOPANE


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202

.

Prof B TUROK

Mrs S P KOPANE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

debates the merits of the recently announced National Council Against Gender-Based Violence and its relationship with other similar initiatives on domestic and sexual violence; and comes up with recommendations to improve the situation.

Ms R M MASHIGO


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mrs S P KOPANE

Ms R M MASHIGO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates restructuring the country's science and technology infrastructure to benefit the poor and rural areas.

Mr R N CEBEKHULU


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Ms R M MASHIGO

Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates the lack of maintenance of the deteriorating bulk infrastructure in our country, the lack of which has caused a backlog in the delivery of services and has created a societal ticking time bomb, capable of throwing our country into further and deepening chaos.

Mr K S MUBU


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mr R N CEBEKHULU

Mr K S MUBU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

debates the lessons learned from the merger of Walmart and Massmart; and finds ways of avoiding problems encountered as a result thereof for future mergers.

Mrs F F MUSHWANA


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mr K S MUBU

Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates ways and means of ensuring that our senior citizens are provided with security in cases where they stay by themselves.

Mrs J D KILIAN


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mrs F F MUSHWANA

Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates government's inability to provide clear direction and information on the roll-out of digital terrestrial broadcasting in South Africa.

Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mrs J D KILIAN

Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates and assesses the implementation of the Local Government Turnaround Strategy by national departments, provinces and municipalities.

Dr P J RABIE


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI

Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

debates the findings of the Labour Market Navigator for the third quarter of 2012 that private-sector productivity is 450% higher than that of the public sector; and comes up with solutions to improve productivity in the public sector.

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Dr P J RABIE

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates the true extent of bullying in South African schools, the impact of this on a child's development and education and what measures and policies can be put in place to create an environment where children can learn without fear of intimidation and victimisation.

Mr G D SCHEEMANN


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Ms L L VAN DER MERWE

Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates the centrality of constituency work and the linking of the legislative arm of the state with the people.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mr G D SCHNEEMAN

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

debates the lack of resources, systems and staff to deal with refugee asylum claims and the impact this has on the economy; and identifies solutions to improve this situation.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mr M S F DE FREITAS

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

debates the need for reforms to our labour legislation, with specific reference to the conditions for the recognition of unions in bargaining fora; and comes up with solutions to improve the situation.

Mrs J D KILIAN


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 202


Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House debates the alarming increase in the scourge of bullying at schools, including the spike in cyberbullying, which is posing a severe threat to children in the public education system.

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 203


NOTICES OF MOTION

DEATH OF ETHOPIAN PRIME MINISTER, MR MELEZ ZENAWI, AND HIS CONTRIBUTION TO ETHIOPIA DURING HIS REIGN

(Draft Resolution)

Mrs M T KUBAYI: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move without notice:

That the House -

notes with sadness the death of Ethiopian prime minister, Mr Meles Zenawi, on 20 August 2012 at the age of 57; further notes that he brought Ethiopia out of a hugely difficult period and made important economic progress; acknowledges that under Zenawi, Ethiopia saw strong gains in the education sector, with the construction of new schools and universities, and women gaining more rights; believes that he demonstrated a strong personal commitment over many years to improve the lives of not just his own but that of all African people through his work on African unity, climate change, development and in promoting peace and stability; and extends its heartfelt condolences to his family, friends, colleagues and the people of Ethiopia.

Agreed to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 203


Mrs M T KUBAYI

OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE AND VICTORY OF PROTEAS ON INTERNATIONAL CRICKET COUNCIL

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that South Africa has attained the number-one position on the International Cricket Council (ICC) rankings for test-playing nations after beating England, the current reigning number-one test team, in the third and final test at Lords in London; further notes that with this victory the Proteas also won the three-test series against England with a score of 2-0; acknowledges the confident temperament of the South African team which, although only needing a draw in the final test to win the series and to become the number-one team in the world, overpowered the English team with a powerful and commanding performance; further acknowledges that this victory was a team effort, but takes particular note of the standout performances of Hashim Amla, who scored 121 runs in South Africa's second innings, and Vernon Philander, who took five wickets for 30 runs in England's second innings; and congratulates the Proteas, their management and coaching staff on this outstanding achievement and wishes them well for the remainder of their tour fixtures.

Agreed to.

Mrs M T KUBAYI

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 203


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION

SA POET WALLY SEROTE WINS PRESTIGIOUS GOLDEN WREATH AWARD

(Draft Resolution)

Mrs M T KUBAYI: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move without notice:

That the House -

congratulates the renowned writer and poet Wally Serote for becoming the first South African poet to be awarded the prestigious Golden Wreath award; notes that the award is given to world-famous poets for their contribution to poetry and history. The awards are bestowed as part of the Struga Poetry Evenings Festival held in Macedonia annually; further notes that this year the festival will be held from 23 to 26 August and is recognised by the UN as one of the most important poetry festivals in the modern world and a tribute to world poetry; recognises that the award has been awarded to Serote and Léopold Sédar Senghor of Senegal, the only two recipients of the award from Africa; recalls that Serote's first book, Yakhal'Inkomo (1972), won the Ingrid Jonker Prize for the best debut volume of poetry in English; further recalls that Serote is still dedicating his writings and social work to preserving South African history and its identity through the expression of the black experience; and wishes him more success in his future endeavours.

Agreed to.

Mrs S V KALYAN


UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22 August 2012 Take: 203


Mrs M T KUBAYI

SA NETBALL TEAM WINS INAUGURAL DIAMOND CHALLENGE TOURNAMENT

(Draft Resolution)

Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that the Protea netball team were on Saturday crowned winners of the inaugural Diamond Challenge Netball Tournament, when they beat archrivals Malawi 47-43 in the final in Pretoria; further notes that with victory in this tournament, which was fiercely contested by top teams such as Malawi, Botswana and Zambia, South Africa has now established itself as the top team on the African continent; acknowledges that this tournament, which is set to become an annual event, is aimed to not only promote the profile of netball in South Africa and the national team but to further the game at all levels and to celebrate the role of women in sport as part of Women's Month; recognises the valiant South African effort in this final, as the Proteas lost to Malawi in the round-robin phase of the tournament; and congratulates the Proteas and coaching staff on this achievement and wishes them luck as they pursue their vision of constantly being one of the top three teams in the world.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:10.


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