Hansard: Approppriation Bill: Debate on Vote No 33 - Rural Development & Land Reform

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 14 May 2012

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 520


TUESDAY, 15 MAY 2012

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 16:51.

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
START OF DAY

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 520


Start of Day

APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 33 - Rural Development and Land Reform:

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, Your Excellencies – hon Chair, they are not here, so I am not going to salute them; otherwise I have a list of salutations, including my colleagues, but my colleagues are here; hon MECs; hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers; hon mayors, who are our guests; esteemed traditional leaders present; organised agricultural organisations; private sector partners, who are working with us; senior government officials; ladies and gentlemen, I greet you all.

Hon Chair, I would also like to welcome a number of important guests present in the gallery today. They are members of the department's National Reference Group on land reform; community representatives from all our comprehensive rural development areas where we are working; emerging farmers; restitution claimants from the provinces of the Free State, Mpumalanga, North-West and the Western Cape; youths from the National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec; members of the Goedgedacht Trust; community leaders from Masia, Mvezo and Ludondolo; representatives from Sappi; members of the department's audit committee; and representatives of our international development partners.

It is important for us to acknowledge these various stakeholders and partners since they have been with us from the beginning of May 2009, when we were still trying to find our feet. Some of them are here as witnesses to the progress we have made, and they have come to better understand and appreciate the challenges we face. Welcome, and thank you for gracing us with your presence on this occasion. [Applause.]

The resolution of the 52nd national conference of the ANC in Polokwane, in 2007, on agrarian change, land reform and rural development led directly to the establishment of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. Why did this happen? Why did the ANC take that decision? Let us examine why.

None who have lived their whole lives in an urban environment can truly appreciate what life is like for the poor people locked in a deep rural community. The vast majority have no work and no hope of getting any work, since they have a low skills base and no chance of acquiring any. No work means a complete loss of dignity, little or no food, dependence on others – a life of misery with nothing to look forward to other than more misery.

The ANC decided that this was a state of affairs that could not be allowed to continue; that something significant had to be done about this. We promised a better life. Not only for the people in our cities; not just for the folks in our towns and villages. We promised a better life for all, irrespective of their area of birth and residence.

That is why, when we opened our doors for business in 2009, we introduced the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP. It is my pleasure and privilege today to reveal to you how we are progressing with the development of that programme, and what our plans are for unlocking the vast potential that the people who reside in our rural areas represent for this great nation.

I can tell you that we are now active in every part of our country. We have a footprint in every province. However, with 20 million South Africans living under stress and distress in rural areas, we have a long way to go before we can claim even modest successes.

On the list of national priorities my department was assigned the responsibility of co-ordinating one of the 12 outcomes, that is Outcome 7 - Creating vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural communities and food security for all. I regret to inform you that we are not yet there, but we are getting there. The monster called poverty is a very stubborn animal. It feeds off inequality and unemployment; it thrives on a lack of skills. To defeat it, we have to be both clever and resilient.

Today, to coincide with this address, we present a Mid-Term Review Report on the CRDP. It is a sincere attempt to reflect on what we have achieved in two-and-a-half years of effort; what ground has been covered; what success and failures have been recorded; and what we think needs to be done going forward.

Make no mistake, we have made progress and we are proud of that progress. However, we are under no illusions. We are fully aware that to achieve meaningful progress we will require a strong resolve and a collective will of the people. This applies to both those who continue to be trapped in poverty and the people whose duty it is to free them from poverty'; people like you, me, all the hon members gathered here today and all of their constituencies.

We have taken the liberty of distributing the Mid-Term Review Report in the form of a booklet. I have a copy here that I can show you, if you do not have a copy, hon Chair, together with a pictorial review of the projects we have implemented on the ground.

We need evidence, and it is there. When my talk is over, I hope this will remind us of the important work around which the futures of so many of our fellow South Africans revolve.

As many gathered here will recall, when we took office in 2009, we did so having absorbed the previous Department of Land Affairs. The focus of that department was on affairs to do with land, whereas our brief is to deal with land reform, access to land, use, management and transformation of land relations. It includes all other matters related to the hopes and lifestyles of those who live on the land, and off the land; in fact, every person in our country.

I can reveal to you that this transformation, the refocusing of priorities from a terrestrial perspective to one concerned with humanity, required a lot of determination and resolve. A lot has been done, and many challenges were overcome during the process.

The Auditor-General raised, and continues to raise, issues, including structures that are not aligned, to ensure that financial and operational objectives are met. We have responded to these audit concerns. The Strategic Planning and Monitoring Unit and the Chief Audit Executive are now at an appropriate level to improve accountability.

The audit committee continues to play its role of oversight over controls. A separate risk management committee has been established. These efforts are starting to bear fruit. In the 2011 financial year the Auditor-General produced only one qualification.

I am pleased to announce that all but one of the posts of deputy directors-general have been filled. [Applause.] These include the appointment of the first black woman as Chief Land Claims Commissioner. The post of chief financial officer became vacant when the former incumbent resigned at the end of last year.

The department has implemented an organisational renewal strategy, which has created a more focused and aligned corporate support service, thus ensuring that line-function programmes have the requisite strategic support.

The department's expenditure during the first three years was R21 billion or 96,3% of the final appropriation of R21,8 billion for the period. The Mid-Term Review Report, which is being released today, will further elaborate on the progress and achievements of the past two-and-a-half years.

I want to report to you on our progress with rural development, which is, when all is said and done, what my department is all about. Progress has been made, particularly in the implementation of the first phase of the CRDP, that is, meeting basic human needs. However, the challenges are great, particularly in the areas of sustainable job creation and enterprise development.

We felt we needed a better understanding of the needs of rural households, so as to inform better planning and development initiatives. In this regard, we commissioned, and have now completed, a spatial analysis of CRDP wards, as well as the 23 prioritised districts. In fact, we gathered socioeconomic data from no less than 190 700 households.

Frighteningly, household food security remains one of the main challenges facing vulnerable rural communities. That is partially why our department, as part of Phase 1, has placed emphasis on improving food productivity. We have, for example - as part of a pilot project, and in collaboration with the Agricultural Research Council - trained 800 agriparaprofessionals in vegetable production. We hope that those who have been trained will assist the communities they come from to improve their ability to grow more and better food.

As will be observed in the Mid-Term Review Report, the good news is that we have achieved remarkable results where food security interventions have been made. For example, in Mhlongamvula in Mpumalanga, 200 ha of soya and 200 ha of maize have been harvested.

In addition, eight other provinces are currently harvesting at least 400 ha of different commercial crops each, which will contribute to better livelihoods. I am not saying that this is the answer to all problems, but these successes give us hope that we can prevail when we all have the will and the means.

Yet successes are invariably tempered with further challenges. In Diyatalawa in the Free State, for example, a community of 50 households grew a brilliant 100 ha lucerne crop and harvested 314 tons of wheat. Despite this success, certain challenges persist, including timing of planting and harvesting of crops, which may result in lesser yields. One other challenge facing this community is the absence of silos in which to store their crops, which would enable it to sell at strategic times.

The Diyatalawa community nonetheless was happy to have generated an income of R12 000 for each of the participating households and, yes, the community went further and used some of their income to plant new crops. This indicates a level of maturity in that community, and suggests that they are ready for a move to Phases 2 and 3 of the CRDP, which deal with enterprise development, agro-industrial hubs and credit finance institutions.

This is confirmed by Mr Mokete Radebe of Diyatalawa, who said:

We have become a big family that continually strives to develop and sustain the area, which results in a better life for all. We are now working as a team.

That is music to our ears.

The CRDP proposes an institutional system that ensures that communities drive and monitor their own development. It is all about partnerships; partnerships between those who have the need, and those who have the will, the skills and the means. The key institution we are using to bring together communities and public and private sector partners is what we call the Council of Stakeholders.

We have now mobilised rural people into 52 Councils of Stakeholders throughout the nine provinces. These are organs of people's power which are meant to enable communities to codirect and comanage and thus own their development.

With the best will in the world, the plain fact is that we are not in complete control of our own destiny, and in our case we find that many rural areas are still experiencing backlogs in service delivery and infrastructure development. For this reason, over the past two years, as part of the CRDP, emphasis has been placed on providing new infrastructure and revitalising old infrastructure in our rural areas.

What is especially needed is infrastructure to facilitate access to services. Progress has been made, notably through the co-ordination of Outcome 7 with other sector departments and provinces, to improve access to basic services. For example, 780 households have been connected to energy in Msinga in KwaZulu-Natal; 3 000 households have benefited from the construction of reservoirs in Disake in the North West, and Msinga in KwaZulu-Natal. In a major achievement in the dry region of Riemvasmaak in the Northern Cape, a 70 km water pipeline now links the villages with the Orange River.

They say God helps those who help themselves. But the underlying truth is that some people have to be taught how to help themselves, which is why education continues to be such a key priority for government.

On education, our department is collaborating closely with national and provincial departments. So far, 28 schools have been built or renovated as a direct result of this collaboration. Rural children are no less deserving of quality education than their urban counterparts.

Again, we have examples of success. In Mpumalanga we worked closely with the provincial government, and they have facilitated the delivery of a state-of-the art boarding and educational facility at the Mkhondo CRDP site. Now the children from surrounding farms need no longer travel long distances to get to and from school. I am certain we will soon see greatly improved results in this area.

To further contribute to education and access to information technology, we have also rolled out the iSchoolAfrica programme, which provides learners and teachers with access to iPods, computers and digital cameras, linking them to a training programme that has already provided access to learners and teachers in 13 schools in some CRDP sites.

When I spoke here a year ago, I announced our plan for the construction of the Nelson Mandela Legacy Bridge, across the Mbashe River in the Eastern Cape. Now we are pleased to report that the construction of that bridge, and a 10 km access road, are well underway; and the bridge is scheduled to be completed by January 2013. [Applause.]

Also, last year, I highlighted the development of the Nkandla Mlalazi Smart Growth Centre, which His Excellency the President, describes as potentially the first rural town to be developed post-1994. Feasibility studies and design work have been completed and the model of the intended rural town, based on green principles, was showcased at Cop 17.

We anticipate that site clearance will commence by the end of July 2012 year. Similar initiatives are soon to commence in May Flower in Mpumalanga, and Jane Furse in Limpopo.

Let me turn now to the important issue of land reform.

Following a series of consultations with land reform beneficiaries countrywide, including restitution, farm equity schemes, settlement production and the Land Acquisition Grant, the department decided to discontinue the use of these grants and to shift the focus towards the acquisition of strategically located agricultural land through the Proactive Land Acquisition Strategy.

In terms of this strategy, acquired land would be made available to beneficiaries who include farm workers and farm dwellers, the National Rural Youth Services Corps participants, women, and unemployed agricultural graduates, through lease agreements.

With regard to the Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development, LRAD, we decided to discontinue it as well, but we are finalising those applications which were already in the pipeline. As a result, under the land acquisition programme we have acquired, during the period under review, some 848 farms totalling 882 238 ha, of which 10 000 ha constitute the core estate of the recently announced Cradock biofuel project. It is worth noting that overall a total of 4 428 females and 3 756 young people benefited from the land. Once again, the department prioritised the vulnerable groups.

I wish to take this opportunity to clarify the issue of the government's commitment to distribute 30% of the country's agricultural land by 2014. In 1994, South Africa had approximately 82 million ha of white-owned agricultural land. That is when the government set itself the target of redistributing 30% of this land to the previously disadvantaged by 2014.

This constitutes approximately 24,5 million ha of the said agricultural land. Up to the end of the third term of this democratic state, the government had acquired 6,7 million ha of that land, which equals approximately 26% of that 24,5 million ha target.

This figure does not include the hectares of land for which the government paid financial compensation, either because people chose that or because land could not be restored. Roughly, therefore, land which has been restored, from 1994-95 to May 2009 amounts to 6,7 million ha plus 882 238 ha of land redistributed from the year 2000 to date, and 368 483 ha of redistributed land from 2009 to date.

This brings the total to 7 950 721 million ha. That is about 30% of the 24,5 million hectares targeted for redistribution by 2014. The department is working on translating the amounts paid for financial compensation into hectares, so that we can meet the requirement.

As hon members of this House raised this question, we responded by going back to check. We thank the hon members of the opposition for having raised this question, particularly the FF Plus.

With the introduction of the Recapitalisation and Development Programme, the department targeted 1 807 projects. To date, we have succeeded in assisting 595 projects. I am happy to report that of these projects, 11 have been successfully ushered into the red meat industry and each has real equity in the red meat value chain. [Applause.]

Once again, however, there are challenges facing both the Land Acquisition Grant and the Recapitalisation and Development Programme. In addressing these challenges we are working closely with representatives of organised agriculture, agribusiness chamber and land reform beneficiaries, who have been organised into a national reference group.

During 2012-13, the Land Reform Programme aims to provide access to over 320 000 ha of agricultural land at a cost of R2,7 billion. Strategic support will be provided to 416 new emerging farmers through the Recapitalisation and Development Programme, in addition to the existing 595 farms currently being supported at a cost of R1,2 billion.

Work will commence on revitalising eight irrigation schemes in the former homelands. These are Ncora and Keiskamma Hoek in the Eastern Cape; Taung in the North West; Vaalharts in the Northern Cape; Nkomazi in Mpumalanga; and Tugela Ferry, Nsuze and Bululwane in KwaZulu-Natal.

This financial year we will also revive the Butterworth Abattoir and Tannery. This will propel the local communal livestock farmers into the red meat value chain. [Applause.]

I want to go back briefly to the subject of restitution and the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights. Here too we are confronting many complex issues, both external and internal to the department. Externally, we have to deal with community and family disputes; escalating land prices; and boundary and other disputes amongst communities, traditional leaders, and office-bearers of communal property institutions. Internally, the scarcity of resources, both financial and human, became a major barrier.

The service delivery model was perhaps the biggest obstacle to rapid progress in settling claims. This has since been partially corrected, at least in so far as it relates to the structure of the commission.

I don't want to paint too dark a picture, but the result was insufficient capacity to administer functions mandated by the constitution, such as proper research and verification of land claims and deal making; information and records management; communication with claimants regarding their claims; and constantly monitoring the state and functionality of the communal property associations.

The good news is that the commission has now been rationalised to create better synergy with, and clearer lines of accountability to the department in its day-to-day operations. The core of the commission, being the Chief Land Claims Commissioner, the Deputy Land Claims Commissioner and the Regional Land Claims Commissioner remain within the ambit of the founding legislation.

In the provinces, however, restitution support personnel have been placed under the Public Service Act. Responsibility for restitution support services has been formally delegated to them by the Chief Land Claims Commissioner. Restitution Support chief directors have taken charge of these delegated responsibilities, and report directly to the Chief Land Claims Commissioner.

This realignment is starting to produce benefits. We are seeing reduced timelines in the finalisation of land claims. We have strengthened the capacity of the legal division, and are beginning to see a reduction of court orders resulting in emergency settlements of claims, which had a negative effect on the budget. [Applause.] We have now introduced an electronic data system to capture and process all the land claims, and we have now completed 95% of the process.

Since 2009, the commission has spent R4,8 billion to acquire 368 483 hectares of land for restoration. South Africa is making a serious investment to ensure that all land claims are resolved timeously.

I am pleased to announce that I have approved the claims of five churches around the Western Cape, which were dispossessed of their land. [Applause.] These are the Wynberg Seventh Day Adventist Church, the United Church of SA, the Independent Lutheran Mission, the Dutch Reformed Mission Church and the Christian Evangelical Church. Representatives of the respective churches have honoured us with their presence in the Chamber today. [Applause.]

The department has received a number of legitimate complaints about its failure to communicate with claimants and affected landowners, about the status of the outstanding land claims, for which we apologise profusely. The commission will, from now onwards, be communicating with all land claimants, landowners and other affected parties to inform them of the status of their claim on a regular basis.

Let me now address the issue of the so-called disengaged youth, and the department's initiative in this regard. The department is making progress with the National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec.

The Narysec's main goal is to recruit and develop rural youth to be para-professionals, by training them – out here they are demonstrating their skills in construction, painting and other skills that have to do with construction - to render much-needed community services where they live.

This corps was launched in 2011 with an initial 7 900 participants, of which 4 500 have either completed or are in the process of completing their training in various disciplines, mainly in the construction sector. Eight hundred and fifty-five of them have been trained in records management and are currently scanning and counting land claims files in all provinces.

About eighty of them, with maths and geography, have been trained in disaster management for placement, later on, in municipalities. [Time Expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P S SIZANI


UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Takes: 521 & 522


THE MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM

Mr P S SIZANI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, ladies and gentlemen and hon members, good evening. Long before 1955, when the ANC and all the other democrats met in Kliptown, declaring in the Freedom Charter that the land shall be shared among those who work it, the ANC has insisted since 1912 that the land that was taken from our forefathers must be returned to its rightful owners.

When the Freedom Charter was written, it gave expression to the declaration that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, both black and white. The Freedom Charter gave rise to an expectation that the new democratic government will create a law or pieces of laws that will distribute the land.

However, when the dictum is translated into the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, our highest law of the land, nothing was enshrined as a human right for all South Africans, not even a socioeconomic right.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have looked through that Constitution. Maybe you also did or maybe you know better than me, but there is nothing in the South African Constitution that declares land – I am talking about the total surface of South Africa – to be a human right of South Africans. It is not even a socioeconomic right.

People want to use section 25 of the Constitution as the basis for the argument that no person shall be deprived of ownership of land. In fact, you will be misleading yourself because that clause, if you recall, was created to protect those people who already owned land and property in South Africa. [Applause.]

As if an afterthought, that section 25 has given rise to some of the restitutions, which does not include the natives of the Western Cape and Northern Cape. Since the early arrival of the settlers in this country -I am sure many people in South Africa know this history and I am not talking about those who are in denial, who believe that black people never existed in the Western Cape before - the Khoi and the San in our country were hunted as animals in order for the settlers to take their land. [Interjections.]

There is no point in arguing this case because everybody in this country has accepted that there are millions of land-hungry citizens who are poor and unemployed, and who could be working on the land to feed their children. The real reason why I am putting this on the table is that I really want you to fasten your seatbelts because I am going to tell you what will happen next. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

Mr P S SIZANI: The subsequent laws which were created through the Constitution to provide these rights stipulate that the land that was taken through the barrel of a gun can only be returned to the former owners in the form of cash.

However, the same law does not require that those people who own the land should make some concession to these poor victims, niether does it provide for some form of reparation to the people who had been deprived of their dignity, wellbeing, and means of livelihood.

The ANC government, and surely the ANC itself, must change direction on the land question if redistribution of the land is to be accelerated. I know many people think that this is empty talk because we have freedom in Parliament. However, let me tell you that, surely, the SA judiciary, the custodians of our Constitution, cannot be slaves to the market on this question.

They are obsessed with preservation. This morning the Minister was talking about Western civilisation, the civilised form of dispossession and the uncivilised form through the barrel of the gun. Many people think that the judges epitomise the moral fibre of our country.

Let me tell you why that is not true. This is sacred ground upon which you should never trample, but what about the poor people whose rights have been taken away through the courts?

Hon Minister, let me tell you something. In a small town called Picket Berg, there is an 85-year-old woman who is critically ill. Her grandson submitted a form in 1998 to claim the entire 19,9 ha that belong to the family. However, there were many other family members who were living on that piece of land.

When research was eventually done with regard to this claim after the form was found three years ago – remember that it was submitted in 1998 - it was discovered that the rest of the family had been disowned by the grandson, who had claimed the land.

Mr A WATSON: Whose government?

Mr P S SIZANI: He claimed the land, because the rights of those people, whose land had been taken away, were not enshrined in the laws that were created through the Constitution.

Now, in order for you to rightfully claim your land, you must fill in a form. What kind of right can be taken away from you simply by filling in or failing to fill in a form? [Applause.]

Mr A WATSON: How do you want to do the record keeping?

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: That is absurd. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: So do we need a constitutional amendment? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: It's absurd logic. It's embarrassing.

Mr P S SIZANI: Hon Chair, the point I am making is that in the case before the judges – the Soni case in Highlands in Kwa-Zulu Natal where three siblings were robbed of their piece of land by another sibling – the judges confirmed that the three had not filled in the form, and that the one who did fill in the form is entitled to the entire farm.

In my view, this is administrative injustice against people who own the land.

Mr A WATSON: That is the law.

Mr P S SIZANI: In fact, this is paying the greedy, because they jumped first when it came to claiming the land. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!

Hon member continue.

Mr P S SIZANI: I warned you to fasten your seatbelts. [Laughter.]

[Interjections.] There are representatives of the propertied class sitting in this House. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: We need a parachute.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, would you just take your seat please? Hon Sizani, would you take your seat? Hon member, what is your point of order?

Mrs S V KALYAN: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I need clarity as to whether this is the debate on justice or rural development? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, that is not a point of order. Hon member, you may continue.

Mr P S SIZANI: There are representatives of the propertied class in this House, who believe that there were no black people in the Western Cape and Northern Cape. They must go back to the history books as they conclusively confirm that as early as the sixteen hundreds, the early Khoi, the San and other blacks safely and peacefully coexisted.

This was the case even as far west as Leeu Ghamka. With their quest to expand the eastern and northern frontiers in order to establish more farms, the colonialists shot their way into nine wars of dispossession.

We know that the DA chief representative of the apartheid class calls these same blacks, who were chased out of Leeu Ghamka and surrounding areas, refugees.

An HON MEMBER: You must study the DA's ... [Inaudible.]

Mr P S SIZANI: She must be warned that no amount of hate speech will divert us from returning the land to the people. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: The hate speech comes from the ANC.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, would you take your seat please? Hon member, what is your point of order? Order! Hon members!

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, a few weeks ago, the Chairperson in the NA asked us all to be very careful about the way we refer to the premiers of provinces. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Chairperson, the member referred to the hon Premier of the Western Cape as being engaged in hate speech ... [Interjections.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Order! Hon member, that is not a point of order. No specific person's name was mentioned. [Interjections.] Hon members, ...

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Mr Chairperson, it was abundantly clear.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Have a seat, hon member. Hon member, you will take the mic when I recognise you. I did not recognise you for the second time.

May I appeal to all hon members that in order for us to be able to go through the debate – we could be here for quite some time this evening – we should allow the member to be heard. Also, when you make interjections, they must at least be informed interjections. It is important to listen to the members on the right hand side and those on the left hand side. [Interjections.]

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I am busy making a ruling and you are interrupting me. Will you desist from doing that, please. You are interrupting me. Hon members, that is the request I am making and we will continue in that way. Hon member, continue. [Interjections.]

Mr P S SIZANI: Hon Minister, the ANC's support of your budget today is a pragmatic acceptance of the fact that the resources are limited. This department needs R12 billion just to do restitution alone, and its budget is R8 billion. I am not talking about land reform; I am not talking about a comprehensive rural development programme. All programmes are being short-changed because of the limited resources.

An HON MEMBER: Because of corruption.

Mr P S SIZANI: However, land redistribution must be accelerated within the amended law. I am calling for the law to be amended to give rights to poor people, instead of protecting the propertied people.

We note that all potential Bills coming to Parliament do not as yet contain this correction. We further ask you, hon Minister, to introduce an amendment of the prohibition of the subdivision of agricultural land so that it can be distributed among smallholders. You should remember that by law agricultural land is not supposed to be subdivided. Smallholders cannot just farm on vast tracts of land; they must be subdivided.

We further call upon you, Mr Minister, to amend the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, Esta, which prescribes that farm workers who have 60 years of experience on the job, can only be allowed to live on that farm for a further one year, after which they must go to look for alternative accommodation.

The same law suggests that if the spouse, who used to work on that farm, dies, the woman and her children must trek. It should definitely be amended.

We support this budget on the basis that it will facilitate the release of the natives from the overcrowded reserves, the Bantustans, so that they come into the greater South Africa. Black people must occupy the rest of South Africa, not only Bantustan areas. [Applause.]

We further support the budget on the basis that more funds be made available to settle families who are beneficiaries of land reform, with adequate inputs for them to farm, send their children to schools and clinics; to build houses for them and provide roads, water, electricity and sanitation.

Mr A WATSON: You've been building houses since 1994.

Mr P S SIZANI: When they are provided with these things, it will benefit them as South African citizens. We note that in the urgency to fulfil the previously agreed-upon policies to distribute land to the majority of South Africans, this department has identified 1,1 million ha of land that has been distributed mostly to indigent families, without providing the means for them to work the land.

This has resulted in the underutilisation of this land, thus weakening food security and the endeavours of this government. This poses a threat to the attainment of the MDGs and sustainable development.

We further note that the distribution of land to the indigent groups takes no account of individual families farming on smallholdings, which already exist and within the limited capacity of those families.

All over the world, smallholder agriculture evolved successfully and produced efficient farmers with the technologies, market knowledge information communication technology and creativity made them international exporters of processed goods and services of the highest quality possible with the available information. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Order! I wish to remind our visitors in the gallery that you are welcome here today, however you may not participate in the proceedings of the House.

Mr R A P TROLLIP

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Takes: 523 & 524


Mr P S SIZANI

Mr R A P TROLLIP: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and many of these intentions emanate from this department.

It's not what we say, but what we do that will translate good intentions into improving the lives of millions of poor and disadvantaged people who eke out an existence, linked to agriculture, on the land.

One of the few good intentions that have come to fruition in this department is the fact that 85% of all geomatics students studying land surveying are being sponsored by your Ministry. The shortage of skilled land surveyors and the need for these services in South Africa is acute, and I must applaud the department for taking this initiative.

A young man from my home town, Mr Kyle van Niekerk, who is my guest here this afternoon, applied to the Department of Agriculture four years ago to study geomatics. His application was turned down. I petitioned you, Minister, when you were the MEC for Agriculture and asked why a person who qualifies in every respect is not accommodated in the bursary programme.

I want to thank you and your department for giving him the opportunity to participate in that bursary programme after my petition. More importantly, I would like to commend the young man for taking the opportunity granted to him, by qualifying this year and for having received the Dean's Award for being the top student in the last three years. [Applause.]

My contention, hon Minister, is that if you offer opportunities to the best people, you can expect and get the best results. If you don't and you use other qualification criteria that are not focused on the best, then you will have compromised results that result in the mediocrity that abounds in this department.

This might sound harsh considering the fact that I have only been on the committee for five months. However, this is neither the time nor the place to trade platitudes. My interaction with officials of this department spans 13 years. My experience to date has been one of frustration as a direct result of ineptitude, carelessness, lack of Batho Pele, lack of professionalism, poor integrity and blatant dishonesty.

An HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear! [Interjections.]

Mr R A P TROLLIP: As with everything in life, though, there are the exceptions, and for those exceptions, I want to thank you very much. However, for the rest of the members of this department that work there, I say shame on you!

The example of reconciliation, selfless service and genuine care set so magnificently by our former President, Nelson Mandela, has been forgotten and disrespected by most of the public servants in this department.

The DA recognises that the legacy of hundreds of years of imperialism and colonialism, and ultimately, the legislation of apartheid, has left the majority of our indigenous people landless and impoverished.

This legacy needs to be redressed and rural development and land reform is one of the most important vehicles to lift the yoke of dependency that weighs so heavily on our poor, rural communities.

Afrikaans:

Jou verantwoordelikheid en die van jou amptenare is om die ondraaglike stand van sake om te keer, deur die beleid van die regering deur te voer en om te sorg dat wat gedoen moet word, gedoen word. Daar is nie kortpadjies nie; net harde werk en toewyding is nodig. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die R8,87 miljard per jaar kan baie ver gaan om regstelling, restitusie en versoening te bewerkstellig, maar slegs as dit eerlik en met integriteit gebruik word. Dit is ongelukkig tans nie die geval in hierdie departement nie.

English:

The central objective of creating vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural environments and communities and food security for all cannot be opposed by any sane person. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The outcomes and sustainability of this department's rural development and land reform projects, more often than not, flatter only to deceive.

This deception, unfortunately, also goes hand in hand with corruption. The examples and anecdotal accounts are legion.

IsiXhosa:

Ngomso siza kuxoxa la meko yaseMuyexe apho umcebisi weli sebe athe watya imali yeprojekthi yoomama ezizigidi zeerandi. Igosa limkile nemali ngoku abantu bashiyeke netyala.[Uwelewele.] Siza kuyixoxo ngomso le nto, mhlekazi, bekufanele ukuba ixoxiwe kwiveki ephelileyo, kodwa ke siza kuyixoxa ngomso.

English:

There are very serious allegations of major corruption in the mentorship programme, where mentors are helping themselves and not their mentees. This, and the practice of buying productive and going concerns and then allowing them to collapse due to corrupt and nepotistic beneficiary identification, all serve to undermine the objectives of this department. The President has identified 23 districts for priority attention.

IsiXhosa:

Mphathiswa, ndothuke kule veki iphelileyo xa bendibuza ukuba kutheni kukho ikomiti enye eMhlontlo yabachaphazelekayo kodwa uMongameli chonge iiWadi ezine. Ndiye ndachazelwe ligosa ukuba uSodolophu kunye noMphathiswa wedolophu banomdla kakhulu wokuyikhokela la nkqubo. Ndiye ndaqonda ukuba ikhona into apha engahambi kakuhle. [Kwahlekwa.]

English:

This situation defies the whole idea of devolving responsibility, accountability and oversight to ward level. This situation, in fact, creates an environment where "big" people end up controlling, instead of aligning the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme with Local Municipal Integrated Development Plans. Controlling these programmes allows these "big" people ...

IsiXhosa:

. ... - Mamela, mhlekazi, -

English:

... to abuse their power to their own advantage and not using it to the advantage of the people who should be uplifted by these programmes. [Interjections.]

HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [Interjections.]

Mr R A P TROLLIP: This department will also have to reconsider the legislative targets for the ensuing year, not only because of its very poor historical track record of promulgating legislation, but also because of how it has dealt with the Green Paper on Rural Development and Land Reform to date.

IsiXhosa:

Kudala saphulukana nawo lo Mthetho uYilwayo. Wawuxoxelwa phandle wabe ungazange uxoxwe nokuxoxwa kula komiti yethu.

English:

We had to call the department and instruct them ...

IsiXhosa:

... - nawe mama ubuyibiza ngokwakho – ... [Kwahlekwa.]

English:

... to come and talk about it in our committee ...

IsiXhosa:

... ngoba ixoxwa phandle kuqala.

English:

The portfolio committee also heard that the department wants to implement the provisions of the Green Paper on Rural Development in a piecemeal fashion. The DA absolutely rejects the department's intention to draft relevant legislation on a piecemeal basis as and when it is ready.

This would allow the conveniently selective implementation of the Green Paper at the ANC's discretion. [Interjections.] In this regard, there are just too many instances of impeding legislation that serve to pigeonhole communities and perpetuate disadvantages, especially for the rural poor. The Green Paper provisions about communal land and its precarious tenure have been placed on the back burner and are not receiving the scrutiny and public consultations they need.

Equally, the provisions of the Traditional Courts Bill will serve only to entrench and compound the lot of the rural poor, especially women who live in the former homelands or so-called Bantustans. It will perpetuate their existence of being drawers of water and hewers of wood.

Its provisions will relegate certain communities to an extra-constitutional existence in a constitutional state. This simply cannot be countenanced, as it will eternally fulfil Verwoerd's detested vision of separateness.

The looming Constitutional Court deadline concerning the amendment of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Bill poses an enormous challenge to this department. If it is not properly considered and promulgated in its current form, it will also have catastrophic consequences for land use, planning and economic development.

I also want to say to the hon chairperson of this committee, it is mischievous to misinterpret the provisions of the Extension of Security of Tenure Act. It certainly does not provide for someone who has worked on a farm for 60 years to live there only for one year. You are misleading this House because that is not the provision of the legislation. [Interjections.]

This brings me back to the importance of geospatial and cadastral services to the rural poor. The aspiration to acquire land – and this is where I align myself with the chairman of the committee - and ownership thereof is not unique to South Africa. It is a universal aspiration of all people. In South Africa, though, we have a government that uses the issue injudiciously by using outdated landholding statistics for their own emotional and political gain, and to cover for the ineptitude and poor performance of this department's land reform programme.

This financial year simply cannot be allowed to be pass without the completed and comprehensive state land audit and a credible land register. Hon Minister, we are going to hold you to account for this.

The idea of the compilation of e-Cadastre needs to be thoroughly interrogated and understood by all. No one should labour under the misconception that the integrity of conveyancing and the registration of title deeds can be short-circuited.

If there is any relaxation of the registration and security of title, we will suffer the worst kind of unintended consequences, the knock-on effect of which will be to drive away potential investment which holds the key to economic growth and job creation in our country.

It is a cause for grave concern for the DA that there has been a dramatic decline in registration of state subsidy housing, especially of those houses built on state land, communal land and land held in trusts, like the Ingonyama Trust Board. Even lease-related state housing schemes should provide owners or lessees with a minimum form of appropriate security of tenure.

All these issues indicate that there is a surreptitious nationalisation of land that seeks to undermine the constitutional provisions of the right to own property, movable and immovable. This also deepens the dependency syndrome of the rural poor.

If the government would just listen to the public presentations of people from this community, it would recognise...

IsiXhosa:

... ukuba abantu basezilalini barhalela ukusuka kule meko kavuk' ukhongozele baye kwimeko kavuku' uzenzele. Kodwa, siyababopha abantu bethu kuba sibenza bakhongozele okokoko. Ndinexhala lokuba le mithetho ndisandula ukuyichaza ngoku ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N C Mabuza): Order, hon members! Give him your ears, please.

IsiXhosa:

Mnu R A P TROLLIP: ... yimithetho eza kubophelela abantu abahlala emaphandleni ebukhobokeni okokoko, bahlale bekhongozele kurhulumente. [Uwelewele.]

English:

This department has a tragic track record, concerning the successful establishment of sustainable land reform projects. Recapitalisation and revitalisation are perennial. The real beneficiaries are not the rural poor, but the consultancy corps and officials with vested interest in a highly-evolved dependency on kickbacks and corruption in the supply chain process.

Fencing, for example, is poorly erected by the thousands of kilometers. Gates are sometimes not hung and sometimes they are stolen.

IsiXhosa:

Ucingo lutyiwa ziimpuku ezilalini. Olunye ucingo lupeyintwa ngepeyinti emthubi, ukuchaza ukuba yipeyinti nocingo lukarhulumente, kodwa abantu bayalweba olwa cingo baye kubiya ngalo emakhayeni abo. Aba bantu ababanjwa nokubanjwa, kodwa kulo nyaka uzayo siza kuphinda siye kuthenga ucingo.

English:

Revitalised agricultural infrastructure that is not properly managed inevitably ends up being vandalised, and assets are stripped by thieves who sell it off as scrap metal or use it for their own purposes. This department's management profile is seriously compromised.

IsiXhosa:

Ungaya naphi na kweliya phondo lethu, mhlekazi, kulaa ndawo sisuka kuyo - eMagwa, eMajola, eQamata, eKhangela, naphi na - uza kubona ukuba ulawulo alukho phaya kweziya ndawo.

English:

Hon Minister, you must know that my colleagues and I in this portfolio and my colleagues from the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries are not going to sit in our offices. We are not going to swallow what the departmental officials feed us in those committees. We go out of our offices. We go to those Comprehensive Rural Development Projects. We go to the timber, tea and forestry plantations. We go and see what is happening or not happening.

The DA respects that this budget is derived from the blood, sweat and tears of patriotic taxpayers who expect us to use their contributions towards reconstruction and development wisely, efficiently and effectively. I have, however, experienced - despite the very best intentions of our hon chairperson, our colleagues from other political parties and our superb support staff - that the reporting and accountability of departmental officials is venal, misleading and, at times, intentionally blurred.

My travels to assess the outcomes and impact of departmental projects have exposed gross incompetence and a glaring lack of management and accountability where the department is solely involved.

On the contrary though, Minister, I wish to testify and commend you that where I have encountered meaningful private-public partnerships, share equity schemes linked with multidepartmental co-operation – especially with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – I have witnessed sustainable, impressive progress. I witnessed that there were dairy farms and macadamia projects implemented in co-operation with Amadlelo Agri in the Eastern Cape that are a tribute to your department, to the managers of that firm and to the shareholders of that company.

The dairy manager of the Fort Hare Dairy Trust, a man by the name of Leonard Mavhungu, is running a dairy operation in Alice that is second to none in the country. [Applause.] He said something really important to me. He said, "Land does not improve our lives, it is how we use it and manage it that determines what happens to our lives." I found this really profound. [Applause.]

Proper planning, management, committed dedication and hard work are the recipe for the success of these projects. If you replicate this model with these measurables and indispensable tenants, land reform will be successful; food security will be improved; and jobs will be created. This, all together, results in a better life. Nothing less and nothing more will give you that result.

I would like to conclude with the contention that, despite what you and the President say, it is not the constitutional provision of willing buyer and willing seller that constrains land reform success. The state is not a victim, nor is it a compelled buyer, as you contend. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N C Mabuza): Hon members, on both sides of the House, you are making it difficult for me to hear speakers. Can you please not shout. You are allowed to heckle and interject, but do not shout.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Takes: 524 & 525


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N C Mabuza)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, may I start by thanking the President for deploying the hon Nkwinti, who has been a friend of mine for years, and I to work together.

The President has complicated my relationship with hon Nkwinti because he has now formalised our relationship in government. I am delighted to be in an environment in which one of the greatest challenges of our country is daily manifested through poverty, unemployment and huge inequality.

The former Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir Mohamad, says in their culture when they get lost they are advised by their elders to retrace their steps. They go to the original starting point, and while going back, they will notice where they took the wrong turn. It is in that spirit that I cite the quote I am going to read now, so that we reflect on what could have happened in the trajectory from then to now.

This anthropologist called Richard Lee says:

Before the rise of the state and the entrenchment of social inequality – about 5 000 years ago – people lived for millennia in small-scale-kin-based social groups, in which the core institutions of economic life included collective or common ownership of land and resources, generalised reciprocity in the distribution of food, and relatively egalitarian political systems.

What we are asking is, what went wrong in the trajectory between then and now? An HON MEMBER: Corruption!

The DEPUTY MINISTER: The debate that is raging in the public domain, which is likely to be finalised in Mangaung, is intended to produce results that will have a meaningful impact on the lives of communities in the rural areas. There is no doubt about that.

Let me also enquire from someone else who thinks about things in a systematic manner: If a factory is torn down, but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves.

Our task in the department, and in government as a whole, is to undo the conditions that give rise to poverty, unemployment and inequality, which is found especially in rural areas. Our collaboration - working together with other departments - especially Education, both Higher and Basic, as the Minister said earlier on, is crucial to the underpinning of the socioeconomic infrastructure that we are laying down in these areas!

The criteria that all infrastructure must be environmentally sensitive, underpin spatial integration, banish rural isolation and create jobs is crucial to overturning the problematic structure of the South African economy today. For 100 years there has been no significant change in the structure of the South African economy, and by no means will we be able to address the problems in the rural areas unless we address the structure.

In fact, Chairperson, for this reason the Minister has placed great emphasis on creating a workforce of officials that must display dynamism. They must be committed, passionate, informed and energetic in the work that they do.

For them to do their work properly, we must pay special attention to the tools of their trade; to expanding and deploying information communication technology in a very strategic manner.

I am convinced that the fuller utilisation of information and communication technology has enormous potential to improve our responsiveness internally and externally to the public we serve, in the manner in which the Minister was describing here. Indeed, interesting things are already happening.

Witness how solar energy has enabled rural schools to operate computers and enabled scholars in these areas to study at night. This simple technology is making a huge difference in the lives of our rural communities, and it can do more. The sun is not about to go out in those areas.

We are excited by the enthusiasm of the Ministry of Communication and its team of officials in working with us on this project. Look at what has happened in communities where ICT centres have been built. It brings a new spirit to the entire community. These centres quickly become community hubs, where traditionally people enjoy sharing cultural and community knowledge. Now we add technology to this communal mix, and the world of knowledge that technology makes available – particularly information that can make a difference – brings about major development in those areas.

This is partially a function of communications; and communications is the crucial tool required to ensure that we are responsive to the needs and aspirations of our people. For this reason, we have undertaken an extensive review of our communications unit in the department to make certain that we are able to communicate more speedily and effectively.

We remain committed to enabling people to access our information and services readily and rapidly, as well as empowering our officials with the knowledge and skills necessary to harness knowledge to improve service delivery.

This year, we will implement a comprehensive communication strategy to dramatically change how we communicate, internally and externally, including with you, hon members. I am sure members have heard the saying that, "A fish lays a thousand eggs but says nothing about it". However, we must learn from the hen which lays one egg and a thousand or more people in the village know about it.

We want people to be able to access the full range of services that this department offers. We possess some of the best cadastre and spatial planning systems in the world. The cadastre is the comprehensive register of our nation's real estate pertaining to its quantity, ownership and value; yet we do not showcase it sufficiently for people to know about it.

We have some of the most up-to-date mapping, surveying and deeds registration systems, which, if utilised properlyly, could make a huge difference to our people's lives, and we are working on this. We are continuing to maintain and improve our control survey network systems to further develop our industry which deals with the digitisation of all the Cadastral Survey and Deeds Offices records. It will take our surveying control and deeds registration operations to new heights, where we benefit from the developments in the ICT environment to deliver world services to everyone we serve.

To-date we have scanned 88 million paper-based images as part of the digitisation aspect of the e-Cadastre effort. This project, which is expected to be completed in 2013, will have a huge impact on turnaround times in land transactions from four to two days.

However it would be a mistake to think that everything is rosy. We are constrained by our not yet strong enough ability to employ appropriately skilled professionals in the surveying, deeds, and town planning fields.

As a proactive initiative, the training to which the hon member across there refers to, selectively, is crucial in bringing about the difference. It demonstrates what we are capable of achieving if we work across government to give opportunities to these young people to make a huge difference. We are using our bursary system for this purpose.

A variety of departments across government, together with the state-owned enterprises, own vast tracts of land. We are bringing this fragmented ownership together. Hon Trollip, the reason we must ensure we have this database is not for surreptitious nationalisation. We will tell you when we do that, if we come to the conclusion that it must be done. Do not undermine our determination to correct the wrongs of the past. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mr D A KGANARE: Yes! Bua, bua!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L Tsenoli): Do not create suspicion about this. We openly and frankly discuss these issues.

The debates on these matters must not be swept under the carpet because we are afraid to offend you. We want to debate them. If that is a conclusion we democratically arrive at, it will be done persuasively. We come from the ANC – we have learnt to persuade and be persuaded. You are patronising us by insinuating that we will do it surreptitiously. You are out of order.

Chairpeson, during … [Time expired.]

Mr W M MADISHA


UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Takes: 525 & 526


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L Tsenoli)

Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you, hon Chair. It is an open secret that hundreds of South Africans die daily due to hunger, unemployment, poverty, disease, and inequality even among those who purport to be in the working class. These, I must say, are some of the momentous challenges we face as a country. To look into these challenges, let us focus on the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP.

When the department implemented the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme's first pilot project at Greater Giyani, Muyexe, the intention was to use the initiative as a benchmark for the whole country. It was implemented without a formal budget in the interests of accelerating delivery and reinventing rural economies to alleviate poverty and food insecurity.

It took more than eight months to pilot rural infrastructure in Muyexe. Some important key CRDP priority areas that were not in the pilot projects were: aggressive implementation of land reform policies; stimulating production with a view to contributing to food security; improving rural livelihoods and food security; and revitalisation of rural towns.

To this end, Muyexe as a pilot project is still incomplete. Twenty percent of the identified projects are still outstanding. The speed of the CDRP roll-out has become slower and less intense. These are the reasons why researchers, for example, Judith February of ldasa, and Reagan-Fascell Democracy Fellows agreed on zero-rating the department for its performance in 2011.

An HON MEMBER: How do they know? It's not in the portfolio committee. [Laughter.]

An HON MEMBER: It doesn't have to be there; it is too obvious!

Mr W M MADISHA: Cope agrees with this rating because the majority of rural people are still dependent on social grants to alleviate poverty, something which many among us do not know, because, I must say, that we have not done enough ourselves – we have not groomed them properly.

The second issue is around poverty alleviation. We agree with the Minister of Social Development ... [Interjections.] I emphasise: We agree with the Minister of Social Development, Bathabile Dlamini, that grants are not sustainable. We would also like to disagree with Ms Lakela Kaunda, Deputy Director-General in the Presidency, that grants are the most effective and widespread poverty alleviation mechanisms. One of the reasons is that grant beneficiaries who qualify for grants do not receive them.

Despite ... [Interjections.] Maybe I must check with my "skuurpot" [potskuurder] pot scourer at home. [Laughter.] Despite the more than 300% increase of grant beneficiaries, according to the Institute of Race Relations, 47,4% of Africans are still living in households with incomes below the poverty income. This is a huge decline when compared to the 49,4% of 1996. The biggest percentage of that is in the rural areas.

We, as a matter of principle, support the provision of social relief grants because government is unable to create decent jobs. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon member, there is a point of order. Please take your seat.

Ms A M DREYER: Chairperson, we want to ask you to please apply the Rules of debate, which do not allow the members to converse aloud. I want to mention hon Mandela by name ... [Interjections.] ... and several other members who are conversing aloud.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon member, your point is noted, thank you. Hon members, kindly stick to the House Chairperson's ruling made earlier in the debate. Continue hon member.

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, I realise, through you, hon Chair, that some of us have not done enough over a period of 33 years to grow some amongst us. [Interjections.] Despite the increase by more than 300% ... [Interjections.] ... of grant beneficiaries according to the Institute of Race Relations, 47,4% of Africans are still living in households with incomes lower than the poverty income. This is a huge decline when compared to the 49,4% of 1996. The bigger percentage of that is in the rural areas.

We, as a matter of principle, support the provision of social relief grants because government is unable to create decent jobs. What we do not support is a lifelong dependency on grants and other forms of social security nets. The country's economy needs skilled young men and women to be ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr R N CEBEKHULU


UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 526


Mr W M MADISHA

Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, as the pace of land reform is very slow and the willing-buyer, willing-seller principle has not proved to be the most efficient mechanism to address the land question, the challenge the land claimants are facing out there is that the system is engulfed in disputes among the current beneficiaries and those who claim they were left out in the process. [Interjections.]

Some of the traditional authorities at the time of lodging the claims have found that individuals have submitted their claims as families and this has led to unnecessary confusion amongst those involved. The programme of land restitution and redistribution needs to be carefully followed. The commission should manage these processes because one could find that traditional communities were forcably removed and then other communities from different traditional communities settled there. This aspect alone has led to unnecessary conflicts.

With regard to the department's core function of building vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural communities with food security for all, yes, there are positive developments. More focus should also be put on reviving farms that were bought for trusts and co-operatives which, in the vast majority of cases, are now unproductive. Former farm workers, who were employed on those farms, are jobless as we speak.

Other members of those trusts and co-operatives simply left the farms and went to look for job opportunities elsewhere, leaving the farming equipment and the properties vulnerable to thieves. To revive these farms will create jobs for our people and contribute directly to decreasing the number of unemployed people in our country, as well as providing a direct form of subsistence to those involved.

The current budget allocation for the 2012-13 financial year appears to be very promising in that it will attempt to address in some way the restitution and land reform programmes.

Another challenge faced by the department is the monitoring of offices that deal with land claims. Oversight is necessary and must be implemented if we are to have an efficient and well-run department. The high staff turnover within the land claims offices leads to delays as files are transferred from one person to another.

This means that eventually all pertinent information regarding claims is lost or misfiled. The high staff turnover also leads to claimants having to resubmit whatever documents they were requested to submit in the first instance, because the original documents have now been lost or misplaced. This further contributes to the slow pace of land redistribution.

I think a need will arise and people will start requesting that their claims be looked at again because of the current state of chaos in our land claims offices. The IFP, therefore, urges the department to investigate this maladministration and find a solution so that these problems that cause such delays can be solved.

With that said, the IFP would like to acknowledge and commend the official handing over of seven farms to 70 beneficiaries of land reform by the Minister on 20 April 2012 in Lady Grey situated in the Joe Gqabi District Municipality in the Eastern Cape. [Applause.]

We support the idea that one of the farms will be used as a training centre for breeding cattle and sheep as this will contribute greatly to promoting agricultur in our country. We hope to see more of this happening in other districts as well.

IsiZulu:

Ngifisa ukusho ukuthi okuningi umuntu akakuthokozele ngoba umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukubekile, nami-ke bengingeke ngingakusho ebengikade ngikuhlelile ngoba kufanele ukuthi ngiveze uvo lwethu njengeqembu. Lokho umhlonishwa akakubekayo, sicela ukuthi akulandele ngokugcizelela ukuqinisekisa ukuthi kuyenzeka. [Ubuwelelele.] Kukhona ukhomishana okhona ozokwenza umsebenzi wokuqinisekisa ukuthi zonke izinhlelo ziyalandelwa, nokuthi nabantu abafaka izicelo bayasizakala ngezikhathi ezifanele. Nakukho konke okunye okwenziwe ngumnyango, umuntu akakuthokozele. Siyabonga. Sisekela iSabiwomali. [Ihlombe.]

Mr S Z NTAPANE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 527


Mr R N CEBEKHULU

Mr S Z NTAPANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, I would like to start by aligning myself with the Minister by complimenting the department for its improved audit report, although there were points of emphasis highlighted by the Auditor-General.

The rural areas are blessed with a natural beauty that, when used properly, could unleash South Africa's tourism potential. However, many rural areas across the country are experiencing a crisis with regard to resources and service delivery.

Historically the rural areas of South Africa were characterised by unusually high levels of poverty and joblessness, combined with very limited employment in the agricultural sphere. Sadly not much has changed in the new South Africa for rural communities, despite the few rural development advances made by government over the years.

The neglect of the majority of rural communities and their needs still continues. Rural communities bear the biggest burden of poverty in South Africa. All forms of unemployment are the highest in rural areas.

In the light of the above challenges, we welcome the department's strategy of addressing rural youth unemployment through its National Rural Youth Service Corps, which was launched in 2010. The training programme that our rural youth will undergo - that is, farming, building, discipline, life skills - will go a long way towards easing the burden of poverty among our youth.

No doubt, these programmes will increase the employability and self-employment capability of these young men. We hope that the department will continue with its nonpartisan approach to this programme.

However, the department seems to be moving at a slow pace to reduce the suffering experienced by people in rural areas. Why do I say this? Many of our people in rural communities still lack access to clean water and sanitation. There is very little economic development taking place in rural communities.

Adding insult to the rural poor's injury, is the extremely slow pace of land restitution. Thousands of our people have been on the list of the department's outstanding land restitution claims for years. Some have even lost hope of their claims ever being resolved. Others are dead by now.

There is no way – actually, I cannot align myself more with Thangana, the chairperson of this portfolio committee, regarding the land issue – that we can achieve ... the UDM supports the vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Nkosi Z M D MANDELA

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 527


Mr S Z NTAPANE

Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members, the director-general and staff of the Ministry and the department, distinguished guests in the gallery, since today is the International Day of Families, allow me to welcome my mother, ...

IsiXhosa:

... Aa! Nolusapho. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

English:

... and the delegation from Mvezo Traditional Council, as well as one of my beloved traditional leaders, Bang'ilizwe of amaTshawe ...

IsiXhosa:

... siyabulisa mhlekazi. Bawo uTrollip, ndikhathazeke kakhulu xa ulahlekisa abantu bakuthi ngokuthi amacingo ayabiwa sithi ezalalini. Abantu bakuthi emaphandleni bazingxamele iinkonzo. Ucingo bayalufuna ukubiyela iinkampu zabo nokuqinisekisa ukuba bayakwazi ukufuya ukuze bakwazi ukuncedisa ngenyama kushishino. Siyafuna ke, Mphathiswa, ukuba uqinisekise amakomkhulu alapha namhlanje azokungqina ngomsebenzi owenzayo emaphandleni nasezilalini. Olo cingo luzise kuthi.

English:

Unfortunately, hon Madisha is not a member of this committee, so everything that he said is irrelevant. I think you should take note of that, hon Kilian. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon member, can you take your seat, please.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, last week during the discussions at the Chief Whips' Forum, the fact that not all members serve in all portfolio committees was discussed. It was agreed by all the Whips that all members are entitled to participate in debates. That point should be clearly made and should not be used by the ANC to create the impression that members are not allowed to speak. [Applause.] [Interjections.] That hon member should know that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon member, that is not a point of order, I am afraid. Sorry. [Interjections.]

Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: The information should be relevant. We are in rural development not in social development. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Sorry, hon member, can you take your seat? What is your point of order, please, hon member?

Ms A M DREYER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: The hon member should please consult the Rules of the House. The Rules of the House make it possible for any member to participate in any portfolio committee meeting. [Interjections.] ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon member, I have already ruled on that; we understand. Thank you.

Ms A M DREYER: ... and secondly, also in any debate. [Interjections.]

Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: The resolution of the 52nd national conference of the ANC in December 2007 on agrarian change, land reform and rural development, confirmed the ANC's acute awareness and sensitivity to the centrality of land as a fundamental element in the resolution of the race, gender and class contradictions in South Africa.

The Ministry, through the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, is at the coalface of developing a new draft policy on communal land tenure. This policy does not seek to eliminate traditional leaders in executing their mandate, as enshrined in section 12 of the Constitution. Rather, it seeks to create an amicable framework that would permit not only the conferment of secure rights to residents of former homelands, but also the creation of opportunities for unlocking poverty and advancing a transparent and democratic system of land governance in communal areas.

Consultative workshops with traditional leaders and other role-players have taken place and a policy document is being developed. This document incorporates both consensual and competing views registered in the workshops held thus far, under the auspices of the departmental work team tasked with developing a communal land tenure programme.

The draft policy notes that private sector banks have been reluctant to provide credit to the communal areas due to the lack of formal titles. Workshop deliberations held with stakeholders in developing policy are of the view that a state-owned bank or a special credit facility be established to provide credit extension to residents of communal areas.

Communal areas have experienced a limited inflow of private sector investment. Programmes such as Agricultural Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, AgriBEE, need to be harnessed to support the economic empowerment of communal residents, and in doing so, set guidelines that promote an environment that is conducive to the participation of previously disadvantaged black producers in the mainstream agricultural economy.

AgriBEE law applies to the entire value chain in the South African agricultural sector, including economic activities relating to the provision of agricultural inputs, services, farming, processing, distribution, logistics and applied activities that add value to agricultural producers. The Vukani farmers' partnership with the Bloemfontein abattoir, for example, is a clear example of an entire value chain programme.

These initiatives should be prioritised in order to build and expand the participation of residents of communal areas in the agricultural value chain, since the underlying principle of communal tenure is to unlock the economic potential therein.

In conclusion, any effective, equitable and speedy resolution of the land question will require an enduring, collective and national political effort to overcome the problemsm. Co-ordination and integration across all relevant organs of state, civil society and traditional leadership is the key to a successful execution of the sustainable land reform programme.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD

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NKOSI Z M D MANDELA

Mr P J GROENEWALD: I want to start by saying to the hon member who has just spoke that you don't need to be on the portfolio committee to understand what is happening in land reform. [Interjections.] I can think for myself, I don't have to read. [Interjections.]

I understand that there are some members, like the hon member, who have to be on a committee to understand what is happening in land reform. [Laughter.] So that is his choice.

I also want to say that when it comes to land, it is a very emotional issue. In fact, certain countries went to war when it came to land. I want to say to the hon Sizani that he actually is and was an embarrassment to his Minister, because he was telling us how incompetent the hon Minister's department is!

If you complete a form and the wrong person submits it, then the wrong person gets the land and it doesn't go to the right person. It's the incompetence of the department of the hon Minister. So he's an embarrassment.

On the issue of the history, I want to say to the hon member and all other members, go and read the year book published by government and go onto the website of the Department of Government Communications and read the history that they gave. That is exactly the history my leader, Dr Pieter Mulder, referred to in Parliament. So go and read it and get the right information. [Interjections.]

Afrikaans:

Agb Minister, u het 'n groot taak om te voltooi in terme van voedselsekerheid. Daar word van die boere van Suid_Afrika verwag om voedselsekerheid te lewer, maar die uitsprake wat gemaak word oor grond in Suid-Afrika skep onsekerheid by die boere.

Ja, die regering wil voedselsekerheid hê, maar dit wil nie vir die boere die sekerheid gee van die besit van hul grond nie. Dit kom spesifiek by die beginsel van vrywillige koper, vrywillige verkoper.

Ek het 'n bietjie gaan kyk in die vorige jaarverslae, en ek kan verstaan hoekom die departement klei trap as dit by die beginsel van vrywillige koper, vrywillige verkoper kom. Dit is omdat in die 2007-08 jaarverslag van Grondsake staan dit baie duidelik dat dit deel van hulle strategiese planne was om by Zimbabwe te gaan leer. Hulle het gaan kyk wat die beleid en die beginsels was wat in Zimbabwe toegepas is in terme van hierdie beginsel. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister sê dat as u daardie beginsels in Suid-Afrika gaan toepas, gaan u ook die hongersnood in Suid-Afrika kry as wat daar in Zimbabwe is. U is die verantwoordelike Minister. U moet opstaan en sê, "Dit is nie die beleid van die ANC-regering nie".

U moet luister na 'n voorganger van u, die agb Derek Hanekom, toe hy die Minister van Grondsake was. Hy het vanjaar duidelik by Graan Suid-Afrika gesê dat as daar 'n mislukking van die vrywillige koper, vrywillige verkoper-beginsel is, dan is dit die regering se eie skuld. So, u eie kollega sê as dit misluk is dit u department en die regering se skuld. Leer daaruit!

Agb Minister, ek het 'n vraag gevra oor De Hoop, 'n plaas van 43 ha, in die Delareyville-omgewing. Dit is gekoop deur die departement van 'n swart boer – nie van 'n wit boer nie, 'n swart boer! [Tussenwerpsels.] Hulle betaal R800 000 vir 43 ha. As dit die geval is dan is daar 'n probleem. [Tyd verstreke.]

Mrs C DUDLEY

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Mr P J GROENEWALD

English:

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the SA Institute of Race Relations has dared to suggest that actual patterns of land ownership in South Africa bear little resemblance to the picture presented by many land activists and officials in government. The amount of South African land in black hands is not 13% but, they say, as high as 50%, with the bulk of land in white hands being held by South Africa's food producers.

Hon Minister, whichever way we look at it, any policy that compromises the ability of those producers to produce food, will impact negatively on all of society, with a particularly harsh effect on the poorest families and communities.

The Department of Land Affairs, as it was known, has been arguably one of the worst-performing departments and the capacity in the department continues to be perceived as extremely weak.

Insufficient involvement of specialist NGOs and development professionals in land reform processes, especially project preparation and planning, leaves poorly capacitated officials trying to deal with complex land reform issues without adequate support. This results in poor decisions and poor project conceptualisation.

A preoccupation with transferring land, instead of making sure that projects work, has proved problematic. The NGOs have witnessed an acute failure of planning and preparation of projects. [Interjections.]

They often see land transferred without any proper plan for how the land will be utilised or farmed, and insufficient participation of beneficiaries in planning processes. There has also been a failure to release preparation funding or preproject funding to enable this to occur.

The Minister was quoted as saying 90% of farms transferred to emerging black farmers have failed and are no longer economically productive, and NGOs have observed this firsthand. There is a mismatch, they say, between project concepts to skills levels and the capacity of beneficiaries, coupled with insufficient beneficiary training and capacity-building and weak beneficiary institutional capacity.

It is crucial that the department focuses on ensuring that the livelihoods of beneficiaries actually improve and that agricultural land remains productive. Often the income-earning expectations of beneficiaries exceed the profit a farm can actually make.

Because of a lack of planning in consultation with rural communities, priorities can become confused, like, for example, completely underutilising even unused community halls.

Priority responses in rural areas should be on basic education, primary health, basic infrastructure and agriculture – both subsistence and commercial. This must be demand led and not supply led, supporting growers and small farmers over a sustained period of time through sustained agricultural programmes and not once-off, ad hoc capital investments.

The co-ops programme has also posed major challenges. It has been supply-led, and very few are economically viable or successful. So, that leaves me to say the ACDP calls for this programme to be reviewed. [Interjections.] We do have serious reservations about supporting this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI

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Mrs C DUDLEY

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, hon members, in South Africa almost 50% of communities live in rural areas, which are generally worst affected by unemployment, poverty, malnutrition, poor education, lack of clean drinking water and appropriate facilities for refuse removal.

All these factors contribute to the poor health status of people living in these rural areas. In order to address these challenges, sustainable rural development strategies need to be developed.

Food security is a constitutional right in South Africa and the Constitution guarantees its citizens the right to have access to sufficient food and water, and determines that the state must by legislation and other measures, within its available resources, achieve the progressive realisation of the right to sufficient food.

Many people, especially those who live in rural areas and who are grossly affected by food insecurity, need to be empowered and gain access to agricultural productive resources. One of the more critical elements in sustaining food production is to improve the living conditions of rural communities by assisting especially small farmers to enhance their agricultural productivity and incomes and to provide them with access to land.

While it is good that land restitution is carried out, it must be done with great circumspection. As communities are allowed to go back to their original land, some decide to stay behind, and by so doing, divide the community. As a result, sooner or later the issue of the contestation of chieftainship arises. We admit this is a Catch-22 situation for government.

The success of rural development sites, such as Disake and Muyexe, in the North West and Limpopo provinces, respectively, has to be looked into and cascaded across the land if they are successful. If they are not, a recheck on them has to be done.

The UCDP will support the Budget Vote.

Mrs N T November

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Mr I S MFUNDISI

Mrs N T NOVEMBER: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the director-general and his team, ladies and gentlemen, our youth present, "kleintjies" [little ones] as we celebrate the centenary of the ANC and the 18 years since the attainment of our hard-won democracy, we note that the ANC has made tremendous strides in the liberation and empowerment of women and children.

Afrikaans:

Die regerende ANC het deur die uiters onmenslike verlede probeer uitwis deur verskillende programme en nuwe beleide en wette daar te stel, wat almal akkommodeer en gelykheid nastreef.

Dit is gevolglik belangrik om te erken dat die kwessie van grondsake 'n baie sensitiewe, ingewikkelde en hartseer saak is, met die potensiaal om families uitmekaar te skeur. 'n Voorbeeld daarvan is wat die voorsitter genoem het.

Agb Lid Groenwald, u weet mos die Wes-Kaap is 'n eilandjie op sy eie in Suid-Afrika. Hierdie gebeurtenis wat die voorsitter genoem het van die ou vrou wat onteien is van die grond in haar geboorteland en van haar susterskind, het net hier in die Wes-Kaap op die eilandjie gebeur.

English:

For the majority of women in rural areas, access to and control of land is a very significant issue. It is vitally important that we address the question of land tenure security, particularly for the vulnerable groups such as women and youth. With land tenure, we refer to the terms and conditions on which land is held, used and transacted.

In dealing with tenure rights of women in the rural areas, we are guided by both constitutional and policy imperatives to redress gender inequalities in land distribution and ownership.

Equitable access to land has been one of the central issues in the history of our struggle, as a movement. This is articulated in the Freedom Front, adopted by the real Congress of the People, held in Kliptown on 26 June 1955 ... [Laughter.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The FF Plus is definitely not going to take responsibility for the policies of that poor party.

Mrs N T NOVEMBER: Chairperson, it was a slip of the tongue. The FF Plus ingavuya kakubi [can be very happy]. Hy ken net daardie plek van ons in die Noord-Kaap. [He only knows that place of ours in the Northern Cape.]

Rural women, farm dwellers and producers in the former bantustans must be the beneficiaries of the process of transformation of land ownership patterns and relations, which the ANC has championed.

This transformation process is a fundamental element of the national democratic revolution. The starting point is to measure the impact of programmes on opportunities for women, young people, and people living with disabilities.

Our experience of land reform, especially land tenure reform, has shown that it is a complex programme. This is because of the entrenched legacy of colonial and apartheid policies. We need to deal decisively with the legacy of a colonial project that displaced black farmers from their ancestral land.

Many farm dwellers and farm workers living on farms were relegated to that the status after their independent access to land was eroded by race-based laws such as the Native Land Act of 1913. This Act, and many others, forced many independent black farmers off their land and they had to seek wage employment in the emerging urban centres.

In the former bantustans areas, women suffered oppression and discrimination. For example, the Black Areas Land Regulations R188 of 1969 provided that land may be allocated only to the male member of the family. In addition, the Black Administration Act of 1927 regarded women as minors who could not own property in their own right. During this time, many of the tribal authorities continued to treat women as minors.

The process of land tenure reform must recognise or upgrade the informal rights of those who occupy but do not own land. This is an obligation in terms of section 25(6) of the Constitution, which states that a person or community, whose tenure of land is legally insecure as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices, is entitled to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to tenure which is legally secure, or to comparable redress.

This clause does not merely state the rights that citizens have. As I have just said, it speaks to an obligation of the state. It forms part of the Bill of Rights and section 7(2) of the Constitution states that-

The State must respect, protect and promote and fulfil the rights in the Bill of Rights.

The ANC has acknowledged that, despite progressive advances in the legal architecture, much still needs to be done in the area of land tenure security, for example, the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, Act No 62 of 1997, commonly known as Esta, the Land Reform Labour Tenant Act, Act No 3 of 1996 and the Prevention of Illegal Occupation of Land Act, Act No 19 of 1998.

The 52nd ANC national conference acknowledged that the most critical challenges facing South African society relate to unemployment, poverty and inequality. These three challenges were again emphasised by the President of this country on the occasion of the state of the nation address earlier this year.

The majority of people affected by these challenges are women and children. The strategy of the ANC focuses on the discovery of solutions that aim to take people out of conditions of poverty through long-term and sustainable solutions that empower them economically.

During the 52nd ANC National Conference, the ANC reaffirmed its commitment to ensuring that allocation of customary land should be democratised in a manner that empowers rural women and supports the building of democratic community structures at village level.

We need a holistic approach when dealing with these and other land tenure-related issues in the communal areas. This is in view of other legislation that has an impact on women's access to land and administration in the former homelands, for example, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Frameworks Act of 2003 and recently, the Traditional Courts Bill.

We believe that the ongoing work on the Green Paper on Land Reform will provide direction with regard to transformation and land tenure systems.

The fundamental changes in the patterns of land ownership through the programme of land redistribution must include comprehensive support programmes with proper monitoring mechanisms to ensure sustainable improvements in livelihoods for the rural poor, farm workers and small farmers, especially women.

These form the core of the question of agrarian transformation. For the benefit of the vulnerable groups, agrarian transformation should support subsistence food production, expanding the role and productivity of modern smallholder farming.

Let me share with you some of the statistics around the progress made in addressing the needs of women empowerment in the land reform programme. Between April 2009 and March 2010, 51% of 11 362 land reform beneficiaries were women. In addition, in April 2010 and January 2011, 48% of 1 582 beneficiaries of the programme were women. [Interjections.]

With regard to restitution, between April 2010 and January 2011, 51% of the 8 658 households that benefited, were female-headed. We welcome the recapitalisation and development programme which is aimed at bringing many of the distressed land reform farms into full production.

It is critical that components of this programme should look into the institution and how internal arrangements and processes empower rural women in terms of allocation and control of resources.

We commend the department and the Ministry for the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, for interventions that have begun providing agricultural support services such as equipment, seeds and infrastructure.

!Gâi !oes. [Good night.] The ANC supports this budget. [Time expired.]

Mr J J VAN DER LINDE

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Mrs N T NOVEMBER

Mr J J VAN DER LINDE: Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen...

Afrikaans:

... dit is vir my aangenaam om vandag vir die eerste keer aan die debat van die Departement van Landelike Ontwikkeling en Grondhervorming se begroting deel te neem.

Die departement het in die vorige boekjaar vir die eerste nege maande slegs 60,2% van die verwagte 75% van die begroting bestee. Kapasiteit was dus 'n groot problem; of die department hierop sal verbeter sal moet ons sien.

'n Groot problem onder die Administrasie Afdeling was die groot aantal poste wat nie gevul was nie. Verder was daar ook 'n groot vertraging in die oorplasing van fondse na provinsies en munisipaliteite. Onder die Landelike Ontwikkeling Afdeling is daar 'n geweldige probleem met die uitrol van die Landelike Onwikkelingsstrategie.

Die besteding by die departement se Landelike Ontwikkeling program was vir die eerste nege maande slegs 43,5%. Dit is duidelik dat die departement 'n probleem gehad het om die minister se strategie uit te rol.

English:

The responsibility of the rural development programme is to initiate, facilitate, co-ordinate and catalyse the implementation of the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme so that it leads to sustainable land development.

Afrikaans:

Dit is egter kommerwekkend om landswyd te kyk na hoe min van hierdie projekte volhoubaar is sodra die befondsing van die department opgedroog het. Dit dien dus slegs as 'n werkskeppingsprojek solank die befondsing van die departement nog beskikbaar is.

Ek kan vele sulke projekte opnoem wat gevou het nadat die befondsing van die departement opgedroog het. Ek kan die waterkwekeryprojek in Beaufort-Wes as 'n voorbeeld hiervan noem.

Die departement sê hy het die afgelope jaar 3 258 groentetuine daargestel. Ek wonder hoeveel van daardie groentetuine nog bestaan of vir hoe lank hulle nog gaan bestaan.

English:

The department's National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, programme – which is a youth empowerment programme – is geared towards skills development in all rural wards. Skills development will include discipline, patriotism, life skills, rights awareness, and specific skills areas that will empower the youth of rural areas.

Afrikaans:

Eerstens wonder ek of dit nie maar net nog 'n program is om politiek mee te speel nie. Dit is feitlik net ANC-lede wat by hierdie program betrek word. [Tussenwerpsels.] Verder word die jeug gestuur vir opleiding, en ontvang hulle 'n toelae daarvoor. Die probleem is egter dat die jeug na die opleiding nie in gemeenskapsopheffingsprogramme betrek word nie. Hulle gaan teken net elke maand vir die toelae.

Die departement se restitusieprogram het ook slegs 35,6% van sy begroting in die eerste nege maande van die vorige boekjaar bestee. Tans is daar nog 8 770 eise by die departement wat onafgehandel is. Wat die waarde of koste vir die afhandeling van daardie eise vir die departement sal wees, is nog onbekend, want die vraag was nie beantwoord nie.

Die departement het ook nog nie verslae na vore gebring op 'n vraag oor die indeling van daardie eise onder die nege provinsies nie, so ons weet nie waar die eise is nie. Die departement hoop om 133 van die eise binne hierdie boekjaar af te handel. Dit wil sê, teen 133 per jaar, gaan dit jare neem om dié storie af te handel.

English:

In the programme for Land Reform, the budget has to cover land recapitalisation and development of 525 distressed farms and land acquisition of 1 million ha for redistribution over the medium term.

Afrikaans:

Die probleem is egter dat hierdie sukkelende plase nie almal ingelig is oor hierdie herkapitaliseringsprogram nie. Verder is die groot probleem by die meeste van hierdie plase wat met die proses van die Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development, LRAD, gegee is, dat hulle uit groot groepe begunstigdes bestaan.

Daar is ook reeds gevalle waar van die begunstigdes afgesterf het, terwyl dié wat oorbly nie in staat is om daardie begunstigdes se families uit te betaal nie. Die plaas Bakhoven is 'n voorbeeld hiervan. Bakhoven is een van die eerste LRAD-projekte met Vier-en-sestig begunstigdes, waarvan 18 al reeds afgsterf het.

'n Paar van die begunstigdes maak op die oomblik asof die plaas aan hulle behoort; die res word nie daar toegelaat nie, en daar was nog nooit finansiële state beskikbaar nie. Onder die nuwe program waar die staat... [Tyd verstreke.]

Ms H F MATLANYANE


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Mr J J VAN DER LINDE

Sepedi:

Mohg H F MATLANYANE: Modulasetulo ke a leboga.

English:

Minister, Deputy Minister in absentia, hon members, departmental officials led by the director-general, and our honourable guests ...

Sepedi:

...bana ba rena ba National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, re ikgantšha ka lena. Modulasetulo, re le mokgatlo wa ANC, re thekga ditekanyetšo tša lefapha le. Re di thekga re tseba gabotse, ebile re bona ka mahlo a rena seo mmušo o eteletšwego pele ke ANC o se dirilego ka batho ba dinagamagaeng.

English:

We know we are on course when we do our oversight visits and we see for ourselves how the people of Mhlontlo in the Eastern Cape are working with the government to realise a better life and a future for all of them.

Sepedi:

Bokamoso bo ka mo diatleng tša bona. [Tšhwahlelo.]

English:

We are indeed on the right track when there is hope for the people of Diyatalawa in the Free State. They are becoming champions of their own lives, despite the problems we are experiencing. This is because we are working; we are not sitting down. [Applause.]

We have turned the tide against poverty, underdevelopment and the massive unemployment that affects most people living in the rural areas. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

Ms H F MATLANYANE: We are now realising that the sun is starting to shine in the rural areas. [Applause.]

Sepedi:

Batho ba Muyexe kua Limpopo, ba tsoga ba nale tshepo ya gore ga se ra ba ra fihla, le gore bokamoso ke bjo bo kaone efela go nale mo re yago gona.

Bjale ka mmušo o eteletšwego pele ke ANC, re a tseba gore re nale ditlhotlo. Fela se se bohlokwa ke gore...

English:

... there is hope for the future, for the women, the children, the youth and the people in the rural areas.

Sepedi:

Maikemišetšo a mmušo wo o eteletšwego pele ke ANC, ke go fihlelela dikhutlo kamoka tša dinamagae, le go fetola maphelo a batho gore ba be le moo ba dulago gona; go akaretšwa le bašomi bao ba dulago le go šoma dipolaseng, bao ba senago ditokelo, ebile go sena moo ba ka kgonago go hwetša bokaone ka baka la ge menyako e phela e tswaletšwe ka nako tšohle ge batho ba swanetše gore ba tsene ba tliše ditirelo ka gare.

Go theiwa ga Comprehensive Rural Development kua Muyexe, e bile pula madibogo ya bokamoso bjo bo kaone yeo e lego gore e dira gore ba bone go ba le bokaone bja ditirelo ka baka la gore ba a tsoga ba be le seo ba se dirago; ba ba le...

English:

... the hope of finishing the day having done something instead of just loitering around.

It was very interesting to realise that when the chairperson of the portfolio committee was speaking, most especially on the very important issue of land reform, he touched a raw nerve. You could see that people were very unsettled.

Then we have to ask ourselves why this is. Why is this happening? Our people are still struggling. They still don't have land. They are still struggling, and we are not the ones to say that we have done or achieved something, because we know that when people work, they make mistakes.

You realise your shortcomings. You are able to look forward and improve. It is our hope, as the ANC, that this department is going somewhere. It is going to improve the lives of the ordinary people. [Applause.]

Mr R A P TROLLIP: It must first get fixed up!

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, when the ANC came into power in 1994, we inherited a lot of poverty in the rural areas, characterised by overcrowding, underdevelopment, low levels of employment, or none at all, and access to basic services was nonexistent. There was no infrastructure at all.

This was due to the years of neglect of the former bantustans by the apartheid government ... [Interjections.] ... in order to make them reserves, serving as a source of labour for mines and white commercial farms and as a dumping place for those not able to work in the white industrial farming areas, such as the elderly, women and children.

I think hon Kganare knows this very well, because he is a former secretary-general of an affiliate of Cosatu. The fact that he is angry doesn't mean that he is right about what he is saying. [Interjections.]

I think we are creating a better life for the people in the rural areas.

Sepedi:

Ke ngwana wa go belegelwa gaMasemola, ke tseba go hlakišwa le go hlokagala ga meetse. Ke tseba gore ge ke emelela goba ke tsoga mo mesong ke phuše kiribayi ke ye go kga meetse. Le gona bjale ke nyaka go bolela gore ke sa se dira seo ka baka la gore didirišwa tšeo mmušo o di beilego le meago yeo e lego gona, batho ba bangwe ba ga borena ba a di tšea ka baka la gore ba senyegile ka mo dihlaloganong; ba sentšwe ke aparteiti. Ke ka moo e lego gore ge ke eya go yo etela motswadi wa ka, yo a nago le mengwaga e 85, ke sa nyake sehlopha sa babegaditaba gore se mphelegetše. Ke dira seo ke tseba gore.

English:

This is something that I must do for my mother who cannot do that.

Sepedi:

Ke a tseba gore bana ba kua gaMasemola ge ba eya sekolong, ba sepela nako e telele. Se se bakelwa ke eng? Se bakelwa ke seo se bakilwego ke mmušo wa pele. Bjale, ga ke nyake gore ge ke felegatša bana sekolong, ke bitše batho ba dikhamera, ba tlale ba ntšhale morago ke re ke bontšha seo se diragalelgo bana, e le gore ke a itšhidolla ka polane ke rata go fokotša mmele. Rena re se bone kgale seo, ga re ithute sona; ke seo re phelago re se dira.

English:

As a result of the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, leading to land and agrarian reform, food security has been identified as one of government's strategic priorities in terms of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework.

The purpose of this priority is to improve the quality of life for rural livelihoods and also to enhance the country's food security through improving agricultural production. Through this implementation, infrastructure for basic services was provided in rural areas.

Sepedi:

Batho ba Muyexe, Mohlontlo, Diatalwa...

English:

... bear testimony to what is happening. They see a future. They are not yet there, but there is a future for them. The department has managed to create jobs, totalling 15 336. Of those, 3 936 were created through infrastructure development. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the noise level is too high. I can hardly hear the hon member speaking. Continue, hon member.

Ms H F MATLANYANE: A total of 11 400 jobs were created linked to skills development. The department expects to create 53 000 jobs in all CRDP initiatives by 2014.

Sepedi:

... ga re foraforetše batho ge re bolela; re bolela seo re se bonago, re bolela seo re tsebago gore bana ba borena ba a se nyaka, ba a se hloka.

English:

Hon Minister, you are on track. Do not be distracted by those who are trying to ensure that they shine. The funniest part – or what surprises me most of the time – is that when they talk, they will talk about Oliver Tambo. They will talk about Nelson Mandela. They will talk about Walter Sisulu.

They never talk about Helen Suzman. She must be turning in her grave to realise that she's not recognised by the party that she created. [Interjections.]

Hon Minister, can I address the hon Trollip... [Interjections.] We applaud your intervention in the young man's plight. He is a member of this House. Wherever he was, that was your responsibility, sir. You were supposed to do that. We don't go about bringing people to say that this is what we have done, because we do it on a daily basis. [Applause.] We cannot say the best, because ...

Sepedi:

...ga se ka maitirelo ge bana ba rena e se...

English:

We all know exactly where we are coming from. We cannot turn a blind eye. We cannot deliberately pretend as if nothing has happened ...

Sepedi:

..ngwana yo a belegwego ka 1994...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member!

Ms H F MATLANYANE: ... gona bjale o nale mathata a bophelo, a go itseba gore yena ke mang. Bjale, le rena bjalo ka mmušo, re swanetše re fete mathateng wona ao. ANC e ya tseba, e lebeletše pele, ga e lebelele ka thoko; ga e lebelele gore yo mongwe o dira eng. O ka se tsoge o kwele ANC e re, DA e dirile se sengwe goba e nngwe e dirile se sengwe ...

English:

... because we know we have a policy. We have policies that will ensure that we improve the lives of our people.

Hon Groenewald, we are not afraid to tell the truth. The chairperson was telling the truth. He was stating the frustrations we are experiencing. He met that old lady, and I was there. We were frustrated. We are not saying that the department is doing right by what has happened, but this is due to the unintended consequences of the laws that we passed, and we need to address that.

We support the budget. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM


UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

Tuesday, 15 May 2012 Take: 532


Ms H F MATLANYANE

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chair, what hon Van der Linde said about the National Rural Youth Service Corps, participants only being ANC members is blatantly untrue.

Mr J J VAN DER LINDE: I've got proof.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: You must bring it to me. We have 8 041 members... [Interjections.] That hon member is confused. That hon member is confused by the truth.

Thank you very much, hon Mfundisi, for acknowledging the work that we are doing in North West and Limpopo. We will explain exactly what we are trying to do. Those were pilot projects that we want to replicate. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

Hon Dudley, yes, perhaps at the beginning we had communication challenges. We have established that there are members of the National Reference Group sitting here now. These are people who come from communities in all the provinces. Each province has two representatives. They are sitting here. Organised agriculture, both black and white – they are all sitting here. They are members of the National Reference Group, so we have covered that ground.

Hon Groenewald, meneer, all change creates uncertainty. South Africa is undergoing a change. Change brings uncertainty, more especially for people who have. Those who don't have, want to have. Those who have, are afraid that they will lose what they have. Those who don't have, have nothing to lose. So let us not worry about that.

We are working with farmers. Some of them are sitting here. I hope that ... [Inaudible.] ... is here. He was supposed to be here. [Interjections.]

Those are people who are participating with us in formulating policy on land reform. So I don't think we should exaggerate the uncertainties. [Interjections.]

Thank you very much, hon Ntapane, for your contributions here.

I think hon Cebekhulu is also very consistent and objective. He tells us where we are going wrong, and where we are right. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate that. [Applause.]

Hon Madisha says that he supports the zero-rating. Hon Madisha, I just want to give you this. I know you are very busy. Please give him this parcel here. Give it to the hon member and then you debate after that. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

We can't debate with people who do not understand what we are doing.

An HON MEMBER: Yes! [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: It is useless to do so. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

You know, hon Trollip is my friend. [Interjections.]

IsiXhosa:

Mhlekazi, musa ukukhulelwa ngumkhwa wokurhana ngoku kuba ulapha eKapa. Usuke wathanda ukurhana gqitha ngoku.[Kwahlekwa.] Yonke into uyibona ngokurhana, iza kukwenzakalisa ke loo nto. [Kwahlekwa.] Andinqweneli ke ukuba wena ube njalo. Bakhona abantu abarhanayo apha, abathi behleli nje babe berhana ukuba ikhona into engalunganga. Abanye babo bahleli apha, kwaye sonke njengokuba sihleli nje bayasirhanela. Wena ubukade ungenjalo; musa ukuba njalo kuba ulapha eKapa. [Kwahlekwa.]

English:

This Chamber used to house the National Assembly - this one. Just think about it: This was the National Assembly of the country. It made decisions for all of us. Before we came here, there was a member of this House who ended up being called "Dr No" because he opposed everything. He said no to everything. We would read about it in the newspapers. I don't want some of my friends here to become Dr Noes. [Interjections.]

Yes, because you oppose everything. It is just fair to sometimes acknowledge the things that are happening and then tell us to correct this or that. To just oppose everyything...

I have come to this point: The ANC has been magnanimous and very generous in victory, almost to a fault. Let me repeat that. The ANC has been very, very generous and magnanimous in victory. This is what the bulldog of British politics said.

An HON MEMBER: Winston Churchill.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Yes, he is the bulldog of British politics. He said that one should be magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat. That is what we should be. Just because the ANC is magnanimous and comes up with a Constitution and laws which are meant to reconcile the nation – these formations formerly in South Africa – it doesn't mean that you should poke our eyes out every time we come to this Chamber and say that we are failing in this and that.

South Africans are here. They are here to listen and get hope, but sometimes they get no hope from of us here. They are probably worried about what they hear here.

An HON MEMBER: These are ... [Inaudible.] ... comments. I... [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: I once visited Canada as a speaker after an election in which a labour-friendly political party had lost. There was a conservative party. We were speakers. We were sitting there. There was a huge debate and fight.

The Speaker adjourned the meeting. When they came back everything was in order. After that we asked the Speaker what he had done. He said that he called them outside and told them that Canadians are watching them as they debated. He asked them what they thought they were telling Canadians through the kind of conduct that they were demonstrating in the House.

I thought about it today and every time I come to the Chamber. Sometimes the way in which we debate issues does not tell the people of South Africa that we are serious in the Chamber.

Thank you, sir. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 19:11.


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