Hansard: Questions to the President, Jacob Zuma
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 14 Mar 2012
Summary
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Minutes
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THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
___________________________
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
WELCOMING OF SPEAKER OF NAMIBIAN NATIONAL ASSEMBLY – ANNOUNCEMENT
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START OF DAY
WELCOMING OF SPEAKER OF NAMIBIAN NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I would like acknowledge the presence in the gallery of the Speaker of the Namibian National Assembly and past president of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, Speaker Gurirab, who is here to attend the consultative seminar. [Applause.] Welcome to our Parliament, sir.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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The Speaker
QUESTIONS TO THE PRESIDENT
Question 1:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon members, at the recent high-level meeting of the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa, Uneca, it was estimated that an amount of US$50 billion is exported out of the African continent illegally every year. This is done through tax evasion, incorrect invoicing, import overpricing and the underpricing of exports. According to information given to the African Union, the countries most affected are South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco and Nigeria.
The flow of illicit finance severely undermines the possibilities for socioeconomic development across the continent. It reduces tax collection, cancels investment, and undermines free trade as it removes resources that could otherwise be used for poverty alleviation and economic growth.
Government has measures in place to address this challenge. The financial surveillance department of the SA Reserve Bank, responsible for the administration of exchange control, continues to detect and deal with unlawful financial outflows by people who bypass restrictions placed on the movement of funds exceeding certain thresholds.
In addition, the Financial Intelligence Centre processes information from a range of financial institutions, such as banks, in order to prevent money laundering and terror financing. In the previous financial year, the centre referred cases to the value of R66,1 billion to law-enforcement agencies and the SA Revenue Service, Sars, for investigation.
The SA Revenue Service has also achieved significant success in identifying, seizing - where appropriate - and prosecuting those involved in illegal importing, under-invoicing and over-invoicing of imports and exports, as well as value-added-tax fraud. During the current financial year, Sars has already confiscated 1,4 million articles of clothing and footwear valued at almost R580 million. It has seized drugs worth R139 million and 683 million sticks of cigarettes valued at R180 million. In addition, Sars has offered amnesty to encourage culprits to come forward.
Government will work with the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa to contribute to stemming the tide of the illicit financial outflows from South Africa. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms B N DAMBUZA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms B N DAMBUZA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela, Mongameli wethu, ngempendulo yakho ecacileyo. Ukungeza apho sibulela kakhulu ukuzinikezela nokuzibophelela kukarhulumente waseMzantsi Afrika ukuqinisekisa ukuba esi senzo sincothulwa kunye neengcambu. Siyambulela urhulumente ngesenzo esinjalo.
Sikwabulela nale nxaxheba yokuba kuqinisekiswe ukuba lamazwe angoongxowa-nkulu ayosondezwa ukuze aqinisekise ukuba nawo ayawavala amazibuko. Xa amazibuko siwavala ngapha abe evulelwa kwela cala loo nto iba yingxaki. Siyayibulela ke loo nto, Mongameli.
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABLIKI: Ndiyabulela, Somlomo. Ewe, siza kuqhubeka sisebenzisana nawo amazwe angoongxowa-nkulu kuba kunyanzelekile ukuba sibafumane abantu abarhwaphiliza imali bayikhuphe kweli lizwe ngokungekho mthethweni ukuze ibuye imali yakuthi ize ekhaya. Ngoko ke siza kuqhubeka sisenza njalo. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, as you have said, the report on illicit capital outflow shows it is mainly attributable to kickbacks, bribery, trade mispricing and favouritism towards multinational corporations. And, in many instances, heads of state and governments co-operate.
In Sierra Leone the capital flight was 425% of their GDP. In the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, and in Zimbabwe north of us, the flight was 344% of GDP. We are one of the big five losers in the world. This is serious. Should you not think, honourable President, that this must be higher on your agenda and is it not possible to take more drastic steps than just simply using the ordinary machinery available to you and the state?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I thought I did indicate what the government is doing. I even indicated what the successes were in those efforts. Now, of course, the hon member has a right to think that you could do something more. If only he could have made the suggestion as to what it is that he thinks we are not doing, which we need to do because we are putting in place intelligence organisations which are very sophisticated. I'm not certain what else we need to do. I wish I knew and, unfortunately, he is not being helpful to say, much as we tabulated all of these things, these are other things that we can do. It would have been useful if he did so. In as far as government is concerned, we are doing our best. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker, and thank you, honourable President. Among the countries you have mentioned which are also losing in terms of this outflow of illegal capital, many of them have a lack in administrative capacity to put a stop to this theft of African resources. Now, what I want to know is: What role, if any, will government play to help countries that do not have sufficient administrative capacity in order to stop this illicit outflow of capital from our continent, as we all know that these are resources that we desperately need to build more houses and better roads for our people?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, of course, the only thing we can do is to exchange information with these countries, because I don't think we can impose and tell them what to do or what not to do. They are running their own countries. In the relations between countries, countries do say what help they need, particularly after the exchanging of information. If there was such a request, we would certainly do what we can. But what we cannot do is to impose on them in the running of their own countries. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr D C ROSS
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr D C ROSS: Thank you, Speaker. Honourable President, global financial integrity estimates that South Africa lost approximately R650 billion in illicit financial outflows, and that was in the last decade. Honourable President, approximately half of this was lost through corruption, bribery and kickbacks. What additional specific steps will government take to prosecute these crimes, perhaps using the Special Investigating Unit, particularly when cases involve families who are connected to high-ranking government officials? How will government prevent these crimes? Will South Africa review again look at its current measures or legislation, and perhaps the role that the private financial institutions will be playing to strengthen and prohibit the illicit outflows of money? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, certainly the hon member knows that we continue to take measures against the wrongdoings. I think we have a number of cases, more than at any other time, that are being investigated. We have signed a number of proclamations. Wherever we come across corruption, we act. I have said here - even in the past - that it would be very useful if hon members, if they have very definite information to say, "Government, here is a case."
This is because at times it doesn't really help to make a generalised statement, except to make us aware us that there is corruption. When you have said you know for a fact that there is a case, we have acted once we received such information. So, we are not going to change and there is going to be no favour, no fear. Wherever there is corruption, we act, and we will continue doing so. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 2: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC /GM// END OF TAKE
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QUESTION 1: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 2:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon members, when I announced the establishment of a commission of inquiry into allegations of fraud, corruption and impropriety or irregularity in the strategic defence procurement package in September 2011, I reiterated the importance of dealing decisively with the matter, which is, no doubt, of public interest. Consistent with this announcement, I will, on receipt of the commission's final report, deal with the said report in a manner that acknowledges both the public interest and the principles to which I am enjoined to give effect to constitutionally out of respect for the commission and the responsibility which attach to their work and deliberations. I will not predict or prejudge the future. I will be guided by the recommendations of the report, including whether it should be made public or not. To do otherwise would unfairly prescribe to the commission the manner in which its recommendations should be framed. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
An HON MEMBER: Another cover-up.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Is that a supplementary question, hon Leader of the Opposition?
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It is, hon Speaker, thank you very much. Mr President, this saga has engulfed our country for over 10 years now and there is a great deal of public concern about the fact that this report will not be made public, because it might implicate senior members of the government, even senior members of your own Cabinet.
This will only cast further doubt about whether or not this government is committed to exposing corruption and to making South Africa a place that is not a destination for shady people to do shady business. I honestly believe that if you think that the public interest and the principles to which you are enjoined are the issue at heart, then you have to commit to this House that you will release the report and that you will make it public within a reasonable timeframe, say, three months, of it's being tabled to you, in order to give the public the assurance that this government will not tolerate corruption within its senior ranks. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the report is not yet done; it's not yet done. You know that people were saying I should investigate this arms deal. There was a big hullabaloo about it - lots of speeches. We then took a decision to set up a commission of inquiry. Now the commission of inquiry is just about to start and there is already a debate about what will happen. That's a debate of ...
IsiZulu:
... eyezangoma. Sekufanele sibhule manje. [Ubuwelewele.] Kufuneka sibhule sithi yizwa! Uma isiphumile, yizwa!
English:
If hon members could wait until the report is done and there are clear recommendations made by the commission, you can then ask at that point what you are going to do with that report. The question would be very legitimate - much as the President will have to be guided by the recommendations. But to begin to debate that issue now, what else? [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Wubungoma lobo, kuthiwa asibhule manje sithi yizwa! [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Really, I don't see any logic in saying if this happens, what would you do then. That is like going to the doctor and before you even know what the diagnosis is, you must discuss it now and what you will do about it. I don't think that is fair. It's not fair. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr D A KGANARE: Speaker, hon President, my question is prompted by statements and responses given by former President Thabo Mbeki and yourself, sir, as the former Deputy President in this House on this issue.
As you crafted the terms of reference of this commission, sir, did you create a room for Hansard to be consulted in order to cross-reference the outcome of the investigations and what was said before?
I ask this question because the hon Lekota, who was the then Minister of Defence and now the leader of Cope, has put it on record in this House that ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
Mr D A KGANARE:... he is prepared to subject himself to public scrutiny. Are you prepared to do the same, sir? [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we have set up a commission and the commission will have information before it, and it will have the kind of people it will be able to ask questions of. Those people will have to go to the commission, whatever the question is. It could be Terror Lekota who was the then Minister of Defence, now the leader of Cope, or Jabob Zuma, the Deputy President then and now the President. The fact of the matter is that this is a commission of the country that must get the truth. Whoever will be called by the commission, will go. I don't think there is any difficulty regarding that.
Adv A H GAUM
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Adv A H GAUM: Mr Speaker, Mr President, I think you are very right to say that the question by the hon Leader of the Opposition is a bit like calling for a premature diagnosis and prescription. [Interjections.] You are only visiting the doctor next week ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Adv A H GAUM: ... but I want to know from you today already - or she wants to know from you today already - what lifestyle changes you are planning to make; we don't even know whether you have cholesterol or whatever the case may be.
Nonetheless, we need to congratulate you on appointing this commission of inquiry into the arms deal ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Adv A H GAUM: ... and to ask you to please apply your mind to the contents of the commission's report, as you've indicated, before taking any action. Now mindful of the risk of falling into same trap as the Leader of the Opposition, does the government plan any interim steps to make sure that we prevent future problems that may occur with the procurement of arms?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon member. Hon Speaker, certainly I think the arms deal in this country has been an experience that we must all learn from. In future, if we were to undertake such a task, we would certainly look at what happened in our experience and take the correct steps in order to eliminate some of the things that might have caused problems. There's no doubt about that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, indeed the appointment of the commission is a decisive step. But I think we need to remind ourselves that this matter first surfaced in this House in December 2001, which is more than 10 years ago, when the joint investigation report was released. Now 10 years later, Mr President, we received a letter from Lieutenant-General Dramat, the head of priority crime, in which he indicated that there was a case which had been submitted to the prosecuting authority for a decision and that there was also a request for mutual legal assistance from abroad.
I would like to know, Mr Speaker, through you to the President, what your view will be of the actions such as these that we are told will be taken - should they be delayed, suspended or stopped completely while the commission takes another two years to release the report? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry, before you sit down, hon member, what is this action ... explain to me more clearly.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much with the Speaker's permission – Thank you, Mr President. In this letter it says the one case has now been submitted to the prosecuting authority for a decision whether or not to prosecute and/or advise on further investigation which may be required. The other case has also been referred to the prosecuting authority with the view to prosecutorial assistance being rendered in obtaining evidence from abroad through a request for mutual legal assistance. My question, through you, Mr Speaker, to the President, is: Should this kind of action, which was suggested by Lieutenant-General Dramat, be stopped, suspended or delayed whilst the commission is preparing its report, which they will release in two years' time? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I don't know whether I should have the view about matters that relate to investigators and legal people who are writing letters to them. I don't think I am qualified to take that decision. That decision must be taken by the relevant authorities. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 3: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / GG (Zul...LIM/CHECKED)// ARM(Eng)(ED – Nelia)/ END OF TAKE
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QUESTION 2: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 3:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, a lot of progress has been made to stabilise the situation in the Eastern Cape education department. Government has gone out of its way to ensure that all the issues of concern raised by our stakeholders are seriously considered in our quest to improve the standard of education in the province.
In this regard, and through our Quality Learning and Teaching Campaign, we have a social compact with teacher unions and school governing bodies to ensure that teachers are in class, on time with a textbook, and teaching. Likewise, learners must arrive at school on time, disciplined and ready to learn.
School governing bodies must ensure that their governance practices support schools to function properly, and that an environment conducive to teaching and learning is created.
We are working closely with all stakeholders to improve these outcomes and we are making progress. For example, the Eastern Cape provincial governmentand the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, signed an agreement which covers a number of aspects that seek to normalise the situation.
The agreement signed on 8 February this year was reached following a meeting between the Premier of the Eastern Cape, members of her executive council and Cosatu leadership. One of the critical areas that all parties agreed on is the reinstatement of temporary teachers by the provincial education department.
Sadtu agreed to end the go-slow and picketing that they had embarked on in an effort to voice and demonstrate their concerns. This decision was communicated to all the provincial structures of the union in order to ensure that the strike action was halted and teaching resumed.
All parties were accordingly in harmony with the view that relations needed to be normalised urgently so that the commitments in the agreement could be achieved. Therefore, the continued and active participation of all stakeholders, including teacher unions, school governing bodies, communities and others with a vested interest in the provision of quality education remains absolutely critical.
Working together, we will ensure that the right of children to quality education is protected at all times. I thank you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Order! I thank the hon President. Is there a supplementary question? Hon Kilian?
Mrs J D KILIAN
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs J D KILIAN: Yes, thank you, Speaker. Hon President, there seems to be a disjuncture between what this House is receiving in terms of information and undertakings, also from your office, and what is really happening at a grass-roots level in the Eastern Cape.
As I stand here today, those temporary teachers have not been appointed. Five thousand teacher vacancies still exist. The education system is nearing the end of its first term. We lost seven million teaching hours during the Cosatu strike action, or go-slow action, and the issue here is: Does the Minister of Basic Education really have your full support for her intervention? She wanted to move in to clean out the education department, to remove the director-general, to have the teachers appointed, to provide the textbooks, but she was stopped short.
The National Planning Commission indicates that the co-operation of teacher unions is a key component of turning the education system around. How will you ensure that we take the necessary steps to get Cosatu and everybody on board, including the director-general of education for the Eastern Cape and the Eastern Cape ANC structure, so that we can attend to the critical shortage of teachers in that province? Thank you. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I am sure the hon member is aware that we have taken measures. I have just indicated what measures we have taken. We have taken measures precisely because there was a problem. There have been negotiations, an agreement has been reached and the agreement is being implemented. Of course, the Minister has my full support. This is not just an individual matter; government support is given to the department.
So, we have taken measures. If you ask what measures we are going to take, we have taken measures. That is why there is an agreement. All we are looking at now is the implementation of the agreement which has begun, including the issue of the head of department. So, we have taken measures. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Mr Speaker and hon President, in light of the continual interventions by the national government in some of the poorly performing provinces, has the time not come for the country to either review the powers provinces possess in this quasi-federal provincial government system, or even consider doing away with this expensive system of government?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, that could be a political opinion on whether the time has come or not. Politicians have views about everything and the views of politicians are not always the same. So people could have views about whether it is time, or are they necessary; whatever.
The hon member, I think, should know that democracy is not cheap. It is very expensive and very costly, and it is time-consuming because you have to negotiate and consult to reach consensus or agreement of the majority.
The provinces came into being as a result of a very serious discussion about what happens to power in a state. Should it be centralised at one place and therefore the people on lower levels have no role to play, or should we have a system that devolves power so that people at different levels are able to participate in decision-making? This is what gave birth to nine provinces instead of the four provinces we had before, which were former republics.
So, it was a very deep discussion in terms of how democracy must be exercised in this country. That is why we ended up with three tiers of government. You will have to go back to that discussion and convince people that, democratically, you need to centralise power and not to devolve power. That is a serious democratic issue and we have different understandings as to what one should do with power. Should it reside in Pretoria, or should it be in provinces as well as in local government?
I think we should not confuse some of the difficulties in terms of the implementation and, in a sense, the running of the different levels of government with the existence of the provinces. This gives people at every level an opportunity to take decisions about their issues and about the people they know better.
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon the President. [Applause.] May I take this opportunity to remind the hon members that a follow-up question is actually what it is supposed to mean: a follow-up question. It is not an opportunity to ask new questions. It must be a follow-up question. Let's not smuggle in new questions.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Speaker, hon President, concerning the Eastern Cape, unfortunately, there is no Izwangoma [obeyance]. The situation is real. In the Eastern Cape we have a situation in which the MEC is prevented by a union member from visiting the school. We have a situation where teachers are refusing to embark on the programmes aimed at improving the quality of education. This is the situation in the Eastern Cape.
I hear the President saying there are measures that have been taken. I hear the President saying that there is a February agreement, but at the heart of all this, is the old agreement which is still there, which stipulates that there must be co-governance between the union and the department. The officials of the department are held to ransom by the unions. They can't act to implement the very same measures and directives from the national department. Are we going to sacrifice thousands of lives of the ... [Inaudible.] ... on the alter ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired. May I also remind members that we can actually hear you better if your speak into the microphone.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I have just explained in this House that there is an agreement that has been reached to deal with the challenges in the Eastern Cape. The fact that the national government took measures to intervene and the fact that I am saying there have been discussions and that there is now an agreement, means there were problems. No one is saying there were no problems in the Eastern Cape; those problems are being addressed. The people who reached an agreement with government – the teachers – are the very teachers who have agreed that there must be a change in the situation and they will co-operate with the government.
So, the measures taken have been agreed to. So, really, as a result of the problems we had we had to meet and have discussions. To ask the question as if nothing has happened while I am saying these matters have been discussed and agreed to and implementation has taken place, including the question of the head of department who has been a subject of discussion, means that I have in fact answered the question. I can't answer the question as if these kinds of activities have not taken place. They have, and agreements are being implemented in the Eastern Cape.
Rev K R J MESHOE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, I appreciate what you have been saying about agreements that have been reached. This is not the first time that agreements have been reached. In the past some agreements were not honoured.
Government has made commitments in that the ability of children to read and write is going to be improved. It is not happening. Today, according to the latest reports, the Eastern Cape has the highest absenteeism in the country. Teachers are spending an average of three and a half hours in class teaching, thereby undermining the seven-hour rule.
What I want to know from the President is: In spite of the agreements that have been made, does government have a plan or another plan, because the other plans did not work. Does government have a plan this time that will work in order to enforce the seven-hour rule so that teachers will be in class to teach our children?
The sad thing is to hear that parents are sacrificing money to send their children to the Western Cape to get better education because teachers in the Eastern Cape are failing the parents. Is there something new that government is going to do? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, hon Speaker, because this is Parliament I can repeat the answer. The members have the privilege to ask the same question, and I will give the same answer. [Laughter.] This is because nobody says there were no problems in the Eastern Cape, and these have been discussed. That is the reason why the national government had to intervene, precisely because there were problems.
These have been discussed; agreements have been reached. The very teachers have now agreed that they are going to go back to class and teach. We are at a point where they now are busy implementing the agreement. How can we have another plan when we have a plan that we are implementing. It is unfair to ask if we have another plan. We have a plan that we are implementing, which is based on the agreement. That is what is happening. [Applause.]
QUESTION 4: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / src / END OF TAKE
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QUESTION 3: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 4:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the transformation of the criminal justice system has progressed substantially. It is, however, not a singular event, but a continuing process to enhance service delivery. The Criminal Justice System Review was completed in 2008 and the implementation of the review's recommendations through a seven-point implementation plan began in earnest in 2009.
The seven-point plan focus areas now form part of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster's, JCPS, service delivery agreement signed by all security cluster Ministers with the President. The objective is to ensure that all people in South Africa are, and feel, safe. Simply put, we are working towards a system in which there is improved co-ordination between the police, prosecution authorities, the courts and correctional services, to bring improved results in the fight against crime and corruption, as well as enhanced access to fair and equitable justice to all South Africans.
Actions emanating from the seven-point plan and the delivery agreement have also been made part of the strategic frameworks and agendas of all departments and agencies. Tangible progress has been made on many fronts. For example, successive reports have indicated a decrease in serious crime, the detection rate for crime, as regards house and business robberies, as well as vehicle highjacking, has also significantly decreased. We are improving the integrity of the National Population Register. We have deployed the SA National Defence Force on the borders and at ports of entry and are seeing progress in containing the entry of counterfeit goods and illegal persons through the country's borders.
Our courts have registered improved case finalisation rates, for example, the High Court with an average conviction rate of 84%. In addition to these measures, the Office of the Chief Justice has initiated case flow management and a process to set uniform norms and standards for the judiciary. Progress has been made to establish 26 additional Thuthuzela Care Centres and victim support rooms at police stations. In order to strengthen partnerships between government and communities in fighting crime, a Community Safety Forum Policy has been put in place with a phased implementation schedule to start in 2012.
These are just a few examples that indicate that integrated and co-ordinated interventions across the criminal justice system have had a very positive impact. The transformation programme spans several planning cycles as a full-scale transformation programme that is based upon continuous improvement practices. There are no exact end dates for the programme, as a whole. Timeframes and targets have, however, been set and are reported on in relation to the various focus areas through the reporting cycles of the JCPS Delivery Agreement Report to Cabinet on a quarterly basis. The cluster reviews its delivery agreement, and thus reviews the targets for each element of the project.
The JCPS Cluster is currently in the process of refining the delivery agreement which sets out milestones, timelines and deliverables. This process is being guided by the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency and the refined delivery agreement shall come into effect at the beginning of April this year. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Ms W NGWENYA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
isiZulu:
Nkk W NGWENYA: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngibonge futhi nakuMongameli ngempendulo ecacile nezwakala kahle, anginawo omunye umbuzo Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
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Ms W NGWENYA
English:
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, thank you, Mr President. With respect, I do not agree with you when you say that substantial progress has been made. I do not think that is correct. There has been some progress, but with the police it is 3,4,5%, which is not substantial; the court rolls are still such that it is sometimes impossible to get your case heard for a year or two. However, the main problem is with correctional services: overcrowding. So, I think the President is too optimistic. There is not a substantial improvement, just a moderate one. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I do not know what measurement the hon member is using that is different from what we have done – and we are on the job, we are not onlookers. We are actually doing the job and doing the calculations and measurements, absolutely. What is new if an opposition member says, "I disagree"? Have you ever agreed on anything? There is nothing new there, really! [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Mr President, I agreed that you must be fired!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That was a disagreement covered in agreement!
Now, I think it is substantial. We are making progress and we do this on a daily basis. Therefore, I do not think I agree with you when you say it is just 3% or 4%. That is really calculating like a sangoma, because you are not there!
IsiZulu:
Vuma, sangoma! [Interjections.]
English:
Thank you, hon Speaker. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon President. Order, hon members! I have on my list the following hon members: D Schäfer, N Swart, and since four supplementary questions are allowed and the first question was not a supplementary question, I will then allow the hon McIntosh to take that slot.
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 232
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Mr Speaker, my question to the President relates to the transformation aspect of the judicial system. In terms of the recently released discussion documents on the transformation of the judicial system, it is clear that government sees transformation largely in terms of the rationalisation provided for in section 16(6) of Chapter 6 of the Constitution. Given that this is a transitional provision in the Constitution, what, in the President's view, exactly still needs to happen before this transformation will be regarded as being complete? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, of course, transformation is a holistic thing. It is not one aspect. It must involve many, many other things, and there are many things that we believe still need to be transformed in the system. So, it is not necessarily one aspect that we are looking at. We are looking at transforming the system totally, and I am sure we could enumerate a lot of things that still need transformation. So, we believe transformation is necessary.
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 232
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, arising from the hon President's response, I am sure he will share the ACDP's view that prosecutors play an integral part of a successful criminal justice system. Indeed, it is they who are entrusted with securing convictions in all manner of criminal cases. However, according to the most recent strategic plan filed by the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, they indicated that prosecutors are faced on a daily basis with physical infrastructure constraints, such as inadequate accommodation, poor working conditions and limited resources. These conditions, according to the report, prevent prosecutors from performing at their best, which ultimately results in poor service delivery. They also indicate in the report their high vacancy rate, which also impacts on service delivery.
Is the hon President aware of these challenges facing the NPA and the impact on service delivery, and in particular, on fighting crime? If so, what action can government take to address these concerns, or should we, as Parliament, rather, use our powers in terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Bill to amend their budget and give them more money? Thank you, Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly, when we talk about transformation, it includes those matters that the prosecutors are talking about. That is why I said transformation is holistic. It deals with all of that. Therefore, I am sure if the hon member thinks that the Department of Justice needs to be given more money, and you can vote here unanimously, I am sure the Minister of Justice would be very happy. Absolutely! Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mnu G B D MCINTOSH
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 232
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu G B D MCINTOSH: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, mina angizethembi izangoma, [Uhleko.]
English:
My question to the hon President is: In regard to the criminal justice system, will the President consider appointing a judicial commission to, firstly, investigate whether by giving our High Courts the freedom, after due legal process, to impose the death penalty for murder? This will be a factor in bringing our unacceptably high levels of murder and other violent crime down. [Interjections.] Secondly, would the judicial commission advise Parliament on what amendments to the Constitution will be required to give effect to allowing the High Court that freedom in sentencing? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Did I hear the hon member say "the freedom to sentence people to death"?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes! [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Is that what he is saying?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes! [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBIC: Well, really, I do not think I will take a decision and establish a judicial commission of enquiry on that issue. I would not. This is a decision that was taken by the Constitutional Court ... [Applause.] ... and it is left like that. I will not do it. Absolutely not. I am very clear. You could raise the matter for debate in Parliament. I do not think you will win it, either. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon President. This is just to remind hon members that a supplementary question may not consist of more than one question. It cannot be a string of questions, just one.
QUESTION 5: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / JN (Zul...LIM/CHECKED) / /Robyn – Eng/ (ED-Nelia) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 233
QUESTION 4: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 5:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as you should be aware, there is already a constitutional amendment before Parliament which amends the powers of the Constitutional Court. This is the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment Bill, which was introduced last year. Far from limiting the powers of the Constitutional Court, the Bill, in fact, extends its jurisdiction.
One of the provisions of the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment Bill concerns which cases can be taken on appeal from the Supreme Court of Appeal to the Constitutional Court. Currently, the Constitutional Court may consider appeals from the Supreme Court of Appeal that are constitutional matters, as well as issues connected with decisions on constitutional matters.
The amendment will allow the Constitutional Court to consider any appeal on the grounds that the interests of justice require that the matter be decided by the Constitutional Court. I am informed that deliberations on the Bill are proceeding well in the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, and that all parties are approaching the discussions with a view to arriving at the best conclusion for the administration of justice in our country.
I must state that I am a bit surprised by the concerns that have been raised regarding amendments to the Constitution. The Constitution is a living document. As I pointed out in my reply to the state of the nation debate, it is meant to be reviewed annually by a committee of Parliament. The Constitution has already been amended 16 times since it was adopted in 1996. That is a perfectly normal exercise.
As stated during the state of the nation address, we reaffirm our commitment to advancing the ideals of our country's Constitution. We have alluded to the fact that the kind of assessment we are to embark on is not unusual. For example, universities and research institutions undertake research at times to evaluate the impact of jurisprudence on the lives of people.
This year marks 17 years of our constitutional democracy and is the 15th anniversary of the Constitution. It is an opportune time to review the capacity of the three branches of the state in carrying out their respective constitutional mandates and how their efforts have contributed to the establishment of a truly free, equal, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous society. Continual assessments done in an open and transparent manner cannot possibly do any harm, especially given the legacy of colonial oppression and apartheid that we must eradicate.
The Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development has released a discussion document on the transformation and role of the judicial system in the developmental South African state. We invite all stakeholders to participate actively to enhance and strengthen our democratic institutions. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 233
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Speaker and Mr President. Mr President, I am afraid you have added to confusion and uncertainty about this matter. On 8 July 2011 you said that the powers conferred on the courts cannot be superior to the powers resulting from the elections, which brings into debate which is supreme. Are we going back? Is it your plan to take us back to parliamentary supremacy, or the Constitution? This is what the debate is about. It is clear from what we read and hear that, in fact, it is the ANC and your, with respect, intention to eventually amend the Constitution so that supremacy comes back to Parliament. If you do that, with respect – you know we lawyers, if we want to be unfriendly, we say "with respect" ... [Laughter.] ... Mr President, if you want to do away that pillar of the Constitution, it would be your duty to go back to a form of Codesa.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, thank you, hon Speaker. I think the hon member must not confuse himself and then claim that he has been confused by other people. [Applause.] The three arms of government have very clear, distinct functions. They are very clear, and they must be respected. The function of this Parliament is to legislate and conduct oversight; correct? Yes, he is nodding. That is its job.
Whilst it is the arm that makes the laws, it does not interpret the laws. That is the duty of the judiciary – which must even check whether this arm has all the necessary constitutional understanding in making the law in terms of whether they are infringing on the Constitution. Is your law constitutional? That is the job of the judiciary. The executive must run the country; that is its duty. In the process of all of this, these different arms respect one another. They work together. They must co-ordinate this, because they belong to one and the same state.
That's why it is not the duty of the judiciary to review itself. It could do so if it wanted to, but other arms have the duty to do so. That is why this Parliament has amended the Constitution 16 times. Dealing with matters of the Constitution is the duty of other arms as well. The executive implements the Constitution as well.
So, what we are saying is that if there are things that are done or decisions taken or, you could emerge as Parliament and feel that there are things you believe that need to be looked at, the judiciary could send back a law and ask for it to be looked at again. It is not imposing on you; it is exercising its duty. That is why we have the Joint Committee on Constitutional Review here. We are not imposing on - or trying to change - the Constitution. We are doing our duty.
What we are saying is that in the process of governance, we have to come to a point at which we say: Let us look at this again. Is it moving properly? This should be done particularly if you are emerging from a system like the one we came from, in terms of which we still have to try to get rid of the remnants of some of the negative things that were there. That is the point we are making. [Applause.]
We don't intend sitting every day with the intent to change the Constitution; not at all. We would have done so, if we wanted to. We have a large enough majority to do so; absolutely. [Interjections.] We would. [Interjections.] I'm telling you.
Mr SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You don't know. [Applause.] Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 233
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, in the hon Minister Rabede's discussion document, or in his announcement about the discussion document, on the transformation of the judiciary, he noted that the review would be carried out both by independent institutions and by the executive. This was despite a previous statement last year in which he said it would be carried out only by an independent institution.
In the President's reply to the state of the nation debate, he committed himself to the separation of powers and to upholding this separation. Will the President not concede that the executive's decision to play a part in this review is itself a serious infringement of the separation of powers? And if so, will he insist that only an independent institution should conduct the review, because, how, for example, would this government feel if the judiciary were to decide to do a wholesale review of its policies and its procedures and its programmes of action? Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I have just said that these three arms have different functions. I don't think the judiciary would stand up and say that they wanted to review all policies. We are a government. Our functions are not the same. We are a government governing a country. That is the difference. [Interjections.] No ...
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Let the President be heard.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: This is one of the points that at times people say that some people want to co-govern. We are a government. What does a government do? It runs a country. It has a duty in terms of the mandate given by the people to ensure that things go according to what the people want. [Interjections.] Even though we have three arms, they don't have the same function. You cannot make comparisons in that way and say that simply because government, which is governing, wants to do certain things then, if that is the case, it means the judiciary also has that right. It is not a government. I think we must make that distinction. [Applause.]
You cannot elevate people to do the tasks they are not supposed to do. This is just like Parliament. Parliament has particular functions that cannot be done by the other two arms. These functions can only be done by Parliament. That is what it is, because the independence of these is not absolute; it is relative. That is what it is, because we are governing a country. [Applause.] That is the reality. So, what the Minister has said is absolutely correct. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mnu V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, mhlonishwa Mongameli, imoto ihanjiswa egalaji ukuyoseviswa ngoba kukhona okubhedayo kuyona. Kukhona omakhenikha abakhanda imoto ngoba isuke ingalungile leyo moto. Ingabe impendulo yakho isho njalo yini; ukuthi into esiyenza la eNdlini kufanele iyobhekwa ngoba ayilungile ukuze sikwazi ukuyilungisisa. Usho njalo? [Uhleko.]
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHLIKHI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, into elingayishongo iLungu lePhalamende elihloniphekileyo wukuthi abafani abantu. Kukhona abahambisa imoto ukuthi iyoseviswa ngoba kukhona okonakele, kukhona abayihambisa kungakonakali lutho ngoba bafuna imoto yabo ihlale iqondile ithe ngqo.
Angisho ukuthi thina sithumela izinto ziyolungiswa ngoba sekukhona okonakele ngazo, cha, sizama ukwakha sakhisise isimo sokubuswa kwezwe ukuze libuseke ngendlela ephilayo. Njengoba siqhuba nje siwuhulumeni, mhlawumbe ongaphandle kukahulumeni akakuboni lokho. Kukhona izinto esibona ukuthi azihambi kahle, zifuna ukulungiswa. Kufana nomuntu onemoto, ongenayo imoto ngeke athi ayiseviswe le moto yakho, [Uhleko.] ngumshayeli oshayelayo othi manje ngiyoyisevisa manje. [Uhleko.] Injalo indaba, Gatsheni. [Ihlombe.] Siyabonga Somlomo. [Ihlombe.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 233
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
English:
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Mr Speaker and hon President ...
IsiXhosa:
...ingxaki wena, mhlekazi, kulo rhulumente wakho kukuba nisuke nibe baninzi abantu abathetha into enye, kodwa niyitolike ngeendlela ezahlukenyeyo xa niphambi komboko, nikhuphe imiyalezo eyahlukeneyo. Kodwa ke, ndiza kubuza umbuzo oza kunceda khon'ukuze usicacisile sikwazi ukuyivala le nto namhlanje.
English:
You were quoted in the media as having said that the primary purpose of assessing the work of the Constitutional Court was to review its powers. However, later on, government issued a statement purporting to explain your media pronouncements in that the primary purpose of this exercise was to conduct an assessment of the judgments of the Constitutional Court. Could you take the nation into you confidence, sir, by explaining what prompted this exercise in the first instance and also clarify which of the aforementioned the government intends doing?
IsiXhosa:
Khawucacise ngoba ngoku siyavumisa, Nxamalala, asisaboni kakuhle.
English:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. These different arms of government have powers. Everything they do in practice derives from their powers. If you make the laws, you use your power that you have as Parliament and you make the laws. Those who look at the laws might - and they have done so in the past - say that your laws are unconstitutional. So, in exercising your power, we have not always been accurate as this House. There are laws that have been sent back, because in the process of the exercise of your power, you might make mistakes, though not deliberately. The executive has been taken to task on decisions it has made on the basis of the power that it has been given by the Constitution as well.
Equally, the judiciary makes decisions – judgments – that, at times, are actually overturned by it. Other levels of court make judgments; the higher courts overturn them, saying that the judgments were not correct. So, the issue of power and decisions cannot be separated. If you say that we are reviewing and assessing whether these decisions or functions that have been undertaken – emanating from the power - are fine, it's because we just want to make sure that everything is done according to what needs to be done in the country. That is what we are saying. The very fact that this Parliament has, in fact, reviewed about 16 aspects of the Constitution tells you the story. Nothing is perfect that it has no mistakes. Only God makes no mistakes. We make mistakes. He had to sacrifice his Son to come and help us.
IsiZulu:
"... sesenze nesono". [because we sinned.]
English:
Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 6: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / JN (Zul...LIM/CHECKED)/ Mia (Eng)/nb/(Xh)/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 234
QUESTION 5: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 6:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker and hon members, following the decision of the Constitutional Court in 2010 relating to this case,the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development launched a media campaign inviting victims and interested parties to make representations in respect of 149 cases.
The response has been positive. Victims and interested parties have responded, requesting information including actual applications for pardon in respect of certain applicants. The victims and interested parties were requested to respond to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development within 30 days.
The Secretariat recently received a letter requesting a 60-day extension from the Legal Resources Centre, acting on behalf of the SA Coalition for Transitional Justice, which consists of the SA History Archive, the Centre for Violence and Reconciliation, the International Centre for Transitional Justice, and the Khulumani Support Group. The applicants will also have 60 days to submit their replies. Once all has been processed, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development will submit the applications to me for my final decision. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 234
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Speaker, could at the beginning say to the hon President that in the past the Constitution was changed four times to ensure that defection from one party to another party could take place in this House. The ANC needed 75% for that and the DA gave you that 75%, so you can count on the DA for another 75%. [Interjections.] Thank you, hon Minister. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Mr P J GROENEWALD: I have the information that the notice was in October 2010 in terms of which the invitation was extended to parties to respond to the 149 cases. As you have said, another 60 days and another 60 days takes this to about April 2011. In June 2011, I posted a question for written reply in this House on the progress. Unfortunately, hon President, your department did not respond. That's a bit disrespectful towards the institution of Parliament. But if I listen to the periods you have given for responses and everything, it's almost a year from that. So could I ask the hon President, seeing that it is a year from all the responses received and all the timeframes given, when we can expect finalisation on this matter? It already comes from 2007. Thank you, hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Of course, the response will depend on how quickly the process is able to move of the people who have asked for the extension. What we cannot do is to jump the process. We can't. Once every other thing has been done to ensure we have all the facts and completed processes in front of us, then we act. Without that, we cannot act. And I can't give an answer when this will be.
The SPEAKER: Order! I have the following names on my screen: Hon Msweli, the hon Sibanyoni and hon the D Smuts, in that order. You seem to be doubting your name, hon Van der Merwe. I didn't call your name.
Mr M A MNCWANGO
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 234
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I pressed the wrong button.
The SPEAKER: Oh, you did. It looks like it. [Laughter.] Please continue.
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Speaker, arising from the President's response that the process actually has some bottlenecks, I want to find out from the President if there are any mechanisms he is thinking of to deal with the bottlenecks in the process, because this matter has been going on for far too long and those people are still languishing in jail. Could the President assure us that indeed this matter is going to receive his urgent attention?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Well, I am sure the hon member would not want me to break the rules, and do what I think is good for me and not follow the law and the procedure. I don't even think that I can suggest anything, because all I would be doing is saying, "This law is delaying me. Let me just do my own thing." I think we all have to respect the processes and also respect the right of people if, for example, they ask for an extension. You can't say, "Look, this thing has been here. I don't grant you." They are legally allowed to do so, and you have to treat them fairly.
I said earlier that democracy is time-consuming, because you have to do things appropriately; according to the law. That is what we are doing. So I can't suggest that I am going to do something outside of the law. I have to stick to the law and wait for the process to conclude and for matters to be put before me; then I act. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Nom J B SIBANYONI
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 234
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiNdebele:
Nom J B SIBANYONI: Somlomo, ngithokoze uMongameli ngehlathululo yakhe ehle kangaka begodu ekarisako le.
English:
The reference group was designed to complete the state of affairs that has been termed by some as the unfinished business of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC. This gave an opportunity for parties represented here in Parliament to participate in an area which is the prerogative of the President, namely to grant prior pardons, irrespective of their proportional vote or whether they were involved in conflict in the past.
Hon Groenewald is a member of the Cabinet "nogal". The process is in the public domain.
IsiNdebele:
Isepepeneneni, ngesiKhethu.
English:
My question, President, is: Is the President aware why the hon Groenewald does not know the process and the progress made in finalising the presidential pardon, as fully explained?
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Speaker, punt van orde!
The SPEAKER: Yes, you are not a member of the Cabinet. You want to correct something: that you are not in the Cabinet yet.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, I just want to ask whether it is in order that an uninformed Member of Parliament can come and talk nonsense in Parliament. [Laughter.]
Mr J B SIBANYONI: Correction, Speaker. He is a leader. That's what I wanted to say. It was a slip of the tongue, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Okay, hon member. You are demoted and no longer a Cabinet member. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Of course, the hon member was asking the question because I'm sure he wants to know ... I think I have given him the answer. He must be happy now, because he has the answer. He is now informed; because I cannot, to satisfy desires, break the rules. I can't. And I have just explained what the process is and where it is. I am sure he is happy now. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Ms M SMUTS
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 234
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms M SMUTS: Mr Speaker, there is another reason why the finalisation may, in this case, take longer than any of us would want, apart from those that the President has very properly invoked. The process may take longer and it can't, in your words, sir, be jumped. I agree with you.
But that reason is one on which I really would like to hear the President's views. Now, given the hon President's assurances that his recent controversial remarks on the Constitutional Court's powers of judicial review did not mean anything or didn't mean what they appeared to say, does he therefore accept that his decisions on these pardon applications will be capable of being subjected to judicial review?
I ask this specifically because the hon President, together with the hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, in the very Constitutional Court case to which he has just referred: Albert, challenged - you challenged, sir - the contention that the presidential pardon power is administrative action and therefore reviewable. I did accuse you at the time of behaving like Henry VIII in this respect, but in other respects I complimented you for your civilisation.
This addresses the point of where we all derive our powers from. The fact is that the hon President cannot claim the power of pardon from ancient royal prerogative. The Constitution Court has said this: that regardless of the historical origins of the concept, the President derives this power not from antiquity but from the Constitution itself – it is that Constitution that proclaims its own supremacy. Should the exercise of the power of pardon in any particular instance, whether it is argued to be administrative or executive action, be such as to undermine any provision of the Constitution, that conduct would be reviewable. Do you agree, sir, that your impending decisions on these pardons – and they are difficult decisions – will be capable of being subjected to judicial review?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I thought that all decisions taken by these arms - individuals serving in these arms – when there are parties that feel these decisions are not fair, that they always take them further. I don't think this excludes the President. I don't think so. I think we will take the decisions unless the Constitution says we cannot review decisions taken by the President, which is a different matter. This is because if that is explicit in the Constitution, then it means we have to follow the Constitution. That's why even decisions taken by judges, who are supposed to know it all, you have other judges who come along and say the decisions were wrong. I am saying this in terms of a constitutional democracy. I don't think you can say that there are decisions that are not reviewable at all, because as long as there are citizens who feels aggrieved about your decision, what must they do?
There must be recourse. There is no doubt about it. Absolutely. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The SPEAKER: Order! I thank the hon President. Hon members, that concludes questions to the President.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Yes, sir. Let me finish. Hon President, you are free to leave us if you wish to, but you are also free to stay and we encourage you to stay. [Laughter.] Hon member?
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Hon Speaker, I would like to find out whether it is in order for an hon member of this House to take photographs in this House. [Interjections.] I can actually point out ...
The SPEAKER: It is absolutely not allowed according to the Rules, unless they are amended. The ones we have – the 7th edition – says no. If there are any pictures taken we would like whoever took the pictures to delete the pictures. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order! We now come to notices of motion.
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF /VM/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
QUESTIONS TO THE PRESIDENT: The SPEAKER
NOTICES OF MOTIONS
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Mr Speaker, on behalf of Cope, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House discusses the importance of South Africa's scenic beauty for the tourism industry long-term success, and that we always strive for a balanced approach between the environment and development.
The SPEAKER: Noted. Hon members, order! Please take your seats. The only person allowed to leave the Chamber is the President. Please take your seats.
Mr P VAN DALEN
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Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF
Mr P VAN DALEN: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the circumstances that led to the awarding of the R800-million manning and maintenances contracts that was awarded to Sekunjalo Holdings and subsequently the withdrawal of this tender.
The SPEAKER: Noted. Are there any other motions without notice?
Mrs S V KALYAN: Sorry, Speaker, is it motions without notice or notices of motions?
The SPEAKER: Yes, yes, yes, we have corrected that. You have the floor, sir.
Mr M R MDAKANE
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Mr P VAN DALEN
Mr M R MDAKANE: Hon Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates assessing the strengths and weaknesses of our postapartheid state at national, provincial and local level.
Ms A M DREYER
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Mr M R MDAKANE
Ms A M DREYER: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the state of the Department of Public Works and comes up with proposals to improve the performance of the department so that it is best placed to provide the necessary infrastructure and client support to government departments.
Mr V G SMITH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Ms A M DREYER
Mr V G SMITH: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates assessing the role of the trade union movement in the process of transformation and what its strengths and weaknesses are.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mr V G SMITH
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates rural household infrastructure sanitation backlog and the impact on rural development and comes up with solutions.
Mrs D M RAMODIBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mr S MOKGALAPA
Mrs D M RAMODIBE: Hon Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates that although achievements have been made in the broad socioeconomic participation of women, we note that much still needs to be done to achieve gender equality in relation to production and reproduction.
Mr E J MARAIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mrs D M RAMODIBE
Mr E J MARAIS: Speaker, on behalf of the DA, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the ecological impact of the changes in sea patterns on the coastline and comes up with measures to be proactive in protecting the build-up of residential areas on the edge of the coast.
Ms R M MOTSEPE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mr E J MARAIS
Sesotho:
Ms R M MOTSEPE: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo.
English:
On behalf of the ANC, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates improving health status of the population and achieving the health-related Millennium Development Goals 4, 5 and 6 which are to reduce child mortality, improve maternal health and combat tuberculosis, malaria and other communicable diseases.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Ms R M MOTSEPE
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, on behalf of Cope, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the South African Constitution and the distinct functions, powers and roles of the judiciary, Parliament and the executive.
Dr P J RABIE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mrs J D KILIAN
Dr P J RABIE: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the DA I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the slow-down in job growth in February to an annual rate of 1,5% or 24 000 jobs as reported in the latest Adcorp's Employment Index and comes up with solutions to improve the situation.
Mr M JOHNSON
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Dr P J RABIE
Mr M JOHNSON: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC I intend moving on the next sitting day of the House:
That the House debates the state of land reform in the regions and also in the municipalities as we approach the centenary of the 1913 Land Act.
Mr L M RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
Mr M JOHNSON
Mr L M RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, on behalf of Cope, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates why 27 000 police members are not fully equipped to handle a firearm and suggests ways to capacitate the police in this regard.
The SPEAKER – ANNOUNCEMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 235
NOTICE OF MOTION: Mr L M RAMATLAKANE
ACKNOWLEDGING AND WELCOMING PRESENCE IN HOUSE OF DELEGATION FROM HOWARD UNIVERSITY, WASHINGTON DC
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the House of a delegation from Howard University in Washington DC. Welcome! [Applause.] Thank you very much and a warm welcome to you all, and thank you for coming.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY /AZM MNGUNI/VM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 236
The SPEAKER: ANNOUNCEMENT
CELEBRATION OF WORLD METEOROLOGICAL DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that each year on 23 March the World Meteorological Organisation, its 189 members and the worldwide meteorological community celebrate World Meteorological Day around a chosen theme;
(2) further notes that the theme for World Meteorological Day 2012 is: Powering our future with weather, climate and water;
(3) acknowledges that the theme focuses on the critical roles of weather, climate and water services in powering a sustainable future for us and for generations to come;
(4) further acknowledges that the World Meteorological Organisation provides the basis for a better understanding of the climatology of severe weather and extreme events such as tropical cyclones, El Niño, floods, heat waves, cold waves, droughts and other natural hazards, contributing to saving both lives and property and improving our understanding and monitoring of the climate system and environment; and
(5) calls on everyone to increase their knowledge about how global climate phenomena play out at regional, national and local levels.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 236
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SOUTH AFRICAN FILM AND TELEVISION AWARDS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that the South African Film and Television Awards were held on 10 March 2012, at Gallagher Estate in Midrand;
(2) further notes that the aim of these awards is not only to celebrate, honour and promote the creativity, quality and excellence of the South African film and television industry, but to encourage entrepreneurship and the development of new talent within the industry;
(3) acknowledges that the drama series, Intersexions, a show about the HIV/Aids infection chain within society, walked away with 11 Golden Horn Awards, including best television drama series, best actor and actress in a drama series and best production design;
(4) further acknowledges that Roberta Durrant, Athol Fugard and Humble Mhlongo were honoured with lifetime achievement awards for their contributions to all areas of the local film and television industry; and
(5) congratulates the winners, organisers and nominees.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 236
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
SEVENTH ANNIVERSARY OF WORLD DOWN SYNDROME DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that 21 March 2012 marks the seventh anniversary of World Down Syndrome Day, WDSD, and for the first time in 2012 this day will be officially observed by the United Nations;
(2) further notes that the aim of the day is to raise awareness and understanding of a condition which affects approximately 1 in 800 births worldwide, and to promote the inherent rights of persons with Down Syndrome to enjoy full and dignified lives and be active participants in their communities and society;
(3) acknowledges that from 2012 the United Nations will invite all its member states, relevant organisations of the UN system, international organisations, as well as civil society, including nongovernmental organisations and the private sector, to observe World Down Syndrome Day and actively raise public awareness of Down syndrome; and
(4) further acknowledges that this will ensure a major step forward towards the goal of WDSD being observed and celebrated by persons with Down Syndrome, their families and friends, those who live and work with them and all persons who wish to promote and ensure quality of life and human rights for all persons with Down Syndrome.
Agreed to.
MILITARY OMBUD BILL: Mr M S MOTIMELE /NN/ UNH (Checked) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 237
MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONSIDERATION OF MILITARY OMBUD BILL
The SPEAKER: Order! The hon M S Motimele, the chairperson of the committee, will address the House on this Bill.
Mr M S MOTIMELE: Hon Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, guests in the gallery, the Military Ombud Bill was introduced to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans in June 2011 by the department. This Bill seeks to establish the Office of the Military Ombud. The role of the Military Ombud is to receive and attend to complaints within and against the Defence Force, from current and former members of the Defence Force, regarding their conditions of service, as well as members of the public regarding the official conduct of a member of the Defence Force.
The role of the Military Ombud is to investigate and ensure that complaints are resolved in a fair, economical and expeditious manner. This office is meant to enhance the grievance processes that exist within the Defence Force and ensure that grievances can be addressed by an independent office. This Bill went through the public-participation processes, with written and verbal submissions received from interested persons and nongovernmental organisations.
The committee subsequently deliberated on the Bill and presented it to the National Assembly. Subsequent to this, the National Council of Provinces made two amendments to the Bill relating to the appointment and removal of the Military Ombud from office. The Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans has acceded to the suggested amendments.
The first amendment is in relation to clause 5(1) and (5)(2) of the Bill. Previously, the Bill required that the President appoint the Military Ombud upon the recommendation of the National Assembly. Both the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development and the portfolio committee agreed that this would be an erroneous process. The President is the Commander-in-Chief and should have the powers to appoint the required personnel without administrative restrictions.
This is also in line with the appointment of the Public Protector, who is, at the moment in the absence of an Ombud, dealing with complaints against the Defence Force.
The second amendment is in relation to clause 5(9) of the Bill. This clause provided for the removal of the Ombud from office by the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, through a resolution of the National Assembly. The current amendment indicates that the Ombud may only be removed by the President on grounds of misconduct, incapacity or incompetence. This amendment is a consequential amendment, seeing that the President appoints the Ombud. It therefore follows that he also be the person to remove the Ombud from office.
The Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, therefore, supports and agrees with the amendments suggested by the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move that the Bill, as amended, be passed.
The SPEAKER: The motion is that the Bill, as amended, be passed. Are there any objections? [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Mrs S V KALYAN: Speaker, the DA requests a declaration, please.
The SPEAKER: There will be a declaration as there is a request for declaration, and parties will be allowed up to three minutes for each member of the party to make a declaration.
DECLARATION OF VOTE: Mr D J MAYNIER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 237
Mr M S MOTIMELE
Declarations of vote:
Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, the objective of the Military Ombud Bill is to provide for the establishment of an independent Military Ombud. The fact is, however, that there is very little independent about the independent Military Ombud provided for in the Military Ombud Bill.
The amendments proposed by the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development in the National Council of Provinces and subsequently adopted by the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans are a further legislative blow to the independence of the Military Ombud. The four amendments effectively ensure that Parliament will play no role whatsoever in the appointment of the Military Ombud.
The amendments were rammed through the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. There was no proper motivation for the amendments. There was no deliberation on the amendments and Parliament's legal advisers were prevented from responding to queries about the proposed amendments. The Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans simply rolled over. It was shameful. The amendments were also adopted against the advice of Parliament's legal advisers who, last year, advised that:
It is suggested that an Ombud should not be appointed by the body that it reviews. The appointment by the President may still create the perception that the Military Ombud is not independent of the executive. It is, therefore, our view that it may be more appropriate for Parliament to have some role in the appointment process.
That advice, of course, was ignored. Why was it ignored? It was ignored because the hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu, does not want an independent Military Ombud. The Minister wants a Military Ombud who is a handbag dog ... [Interjection.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, hold on. There is a point of order. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Speaker, this is a very important piece of legislation. I want to find out if it is parliamentary for the hon member to create a perception which is baseless lies.
An HON MEMBER: What is the point of order? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: It is a point of order! It is a point of order. He is not allowed to bring a baseless lie to Parliament.
An HON MEMBER: That is not a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! Order, hon members. [Interjections.] Order! I will study the Hansard and come back with a decision on that. Proceed, hon member.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, the Minister wants a Military Ombud who is a handbag dog. The Minister does not want a Military Ombud who is a bulldog. The truth is that the Military Ombud provided for in the Military Ombud Bill is a Military Ombud in name only. We do support the establishment of an independent Military Ombud, but we do not support these amendments to the Military Ombud Bill, which diminish the independence of the Military Ombud. I thank you. [Applause.]
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I rise on a point of order. Actually, I was going to ask if it was parliamentary for members to utter statements that insinuate sexism. In the statement that the previous member just made he mentioned that the Minister uses the military as she uses her bag. Is that parliamentary because that is really a sexist statement? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! That certainly sounds inappropriate. I'll study the Hansard and I'll come back with a ruling.
DECLARATION OF VOTE: Ms N R-M MABEDLA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 237
Mr J D MAYNIER
IsiXhosa:
Nks N R-M MABEDLA: Somlomo, esi sisivumelwano kwaye yayisisivumelwano sentlanganiso kwantlandlolo ukuba amandla omkhuseli wamalungelo amalungu omkhosi awasekelwanga phantsi kwemiqathango yesaHluko se-9.
Eyona nto aza kujongana nayo ngqo umkhuseli wemiqathango ziindlela zokusebenza kwamalungu omkhosi. Into yokuba ukuzimela geqe kwale ofisi kusemgciphekweni, ngamampunge kwaye lulwimi etywaleni. [Kwaqwhatywa.]
Umphathi wale ofisi nesekela lakhe, baza kuthatha isifungo sentembeko, sokuzibophelela, nokuhlela izikhalaza neendlela zokuzisombulula ngokukhawuleza nangokunyanisekileyo.
Kananjalo, into yokuba iLungu lePalamente elisandul' ukuthetha apha alizange livunyelwe ukuba lithethe entlanganisweni ngamaLungu ePalamente, ngamampunge. Imibuzo eyayibuzwe leli lungu yaphendulwa ntlandlolo, kwaye lo Mthetho oYilwayo wawuzile apha KwiNdlu yoWiso-mthetho, savumelana ukuba lo Mthetho oYilwayo awusekelwanga phantsi kwale miqathango. Amalungu omkhosi anawo amalungelo, kodwa la malungelo mawabe phantsi kwale ofisi yokujonga amalungu omkhosi. Enkosi; ndisatshaya. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
DECLARATION OF VOTE: Mr M A NHANHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 237
Ms N R-M MABEDLA
Mr M A NHANHA: Thank you, hon Speaker. I thought you would give me the honour of saying: "That brings the business of the day to an end, and the House is adjourned." In any democratic society, healthy relations ideally operate in a triangular relationship comprising security services, civil authority and civil society. Such a relationship contributes positively to the enhancement of peace and security. This model also ensures greater transparency, accountability, and effective civil control. This is the premise on which Cope is addressing this issue. We are very mindful that democratic relations must constitute the manner in which all parties participate.
In the management of healthy civil-security relations, one of the fundamental requirements is that Parliament closely monitor the security forces. It is envisaged that the Ombudsman will address any military personnel matters which cannot be resolved through ordinary existing mechanisms. A military investigator was even positioned within the Public Protector's Office to investigate military-related complaints, but this has not been adequate.
Cope believes that the Office of the Military Ombud will assist in bringing about more transparency. It is, however, not going to be sufficiently independent from political interference because the incumbent will be appointed by the President.
During the public hearings, it became clear that several organisations also criticised the Bill for failing to give the Ombud the power to compel the implementation of his or her recommendations. This is fundamental. Creating the office and denuding it of power is totally counterproductive. It does not take a stargazer to show that this inadequacy will subvert the functioning of the office.
The Military Ombud is intended to resolve both internal complaints in the Defence Force and external complaints against the Defence Force. It is, therefore, suggested that the Ombud should not be appointed by the body that it reviews, as correctly pointed out by the hon Maynier. While the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans does not appoint the Military Ombud and the appointment is made by the President, there is not enough independence to allow for quick and assertive action to be taken.
It seems that politicians want to keep control of the process and this will, therefore, limit its effectiveness. It is, therefore, Cope's view that it may be more appropriate for Parliament to have some role in the appointment of the Ombud. That is how Cope would have approached the creation of this very important office.
Cope's policy begins by aligning civil and government relations by asking questions such as: Is the South African Constitution really a people's document owned by the people? Does it alter the existence of those who are poor, homeless, marginalised and excluded? Does it allow for structures that are set up to succeed in their objectives without being constrained by the executive? That is what we would ask.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I gave each speaker three minutes. You have exceeded your limit. So, if you can just conclude in the last remaining seconds.
Mr M A NHANHA: In conclusion, Cope, in essence, does support the Bill. It is basically long overdue; thank you, Minister. However, we have reservations relating to the independence of the Ombud. Thank you. [Applause.]
DECLARATION OF VOTE: Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 15 March 2012 Take: 237
Mr M A NHANHA
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, neNdlu ehloniphekile, asiqale ngokuthi ngabe yini ngempela esikhuluma ngayo.
Uma sikhuluma ngokuthi uMongameli uyena ozokhomba ihhovisi elizimele [Ombudsman], asikhulume ngokuthi unalo noma akanalo ilungelo lokumxosha nokumbheka ukuthi usebenza kanjani. Yilokho okufanele sikhulume ngakho. Konke lokhu okunye sikubeke eceleni, ngoba akusho lutho la kule ngxoxo esiyixoxayo.
Ngakho-ke, le ngxoxo esiyixoxayo iveza ngokusobala ukuthi kufanele ukuthi leli hhovisi libe khona. Sivumelana sonke lapha eNdlini, ngaphandle komuntu ogula ngekhanda ongathi akakuvumi lokho.
Okwesibili, sivumelana sonke la eNdlini ukuthi kufanele ukuthi kungabi nguNgqongqoshe kodwa kube umuntu ozomqasha, noma singaba nawo amandla noma ngabe asinawo amandla.
Thina la eNdlini sinelungelo - njengabantu abakhethwa ngabantu nanjengabantu abavumelana ngokuthi siyamxosha noma asimxoshi uMongameli - ukuthi sikwazi ukubheka ukuthi kwakhona lokhu akwenzile kuyiqiniso yini noma cha. Ngakho-ke, angazi ukuthi sixoxani manje. Ngiyathokoza Somlomo. [Ihlombe.]
Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, African National Congress, Congress of the People and Inkatha Freedom Party.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Bill accordingly passed.
The House adjourned at 16:05.
Mpho (Eng)/UNH (Checked) / NPM (IsiZ...LIM/CHECKED) / Ntshantsha (Xhosa)/ END OF TAKE