Hansard: Questions: Cluster 1: Peace and Security ; Joint Whips Forum
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 05 Mar 2012
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 572
TUESDAY, 6 MARCH 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_____________
The Council met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 14:03.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will not be notices of motion or motions without notice, except for the motions on the Order Paper. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 572
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela) – Start of day
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE IN TERMS OF JOINT RULE 138
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the Council, subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, establishes an ad hoc joint committee in terms of Joint Rule 138, the committee to –
(1) consider the request by the Minister in the Presidency: Performance Monitoring, Evaluation and Administration tabled on 10 November 2011 for Parliament to recommend seven candidates for appointment to the board of the National Youth Development Agency in terms of the requirements of the National Youth Development Agency Act, 2008 (Act 54 of 2008);
(2) consist of 9 members of the National Council of Provinces and 12 members of the National Assembly, as follows: ANC 7, DA 2, Cope 1; IFP 1 and 1 from another smaller party;
(3) exercise those powers in Joint Rule 32 that may assist it in carrying out its task; and
(4) report by 30 April 2012.
I just want to clarify the following, Deputy Chairperson. The second clause provides for 9 members from the NCOP. So that members are not confused and think the 7 ANC members mentioned must be from the NCOP, let me say that the figures are for the National Assembly. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 572
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
EXTENSION OF DEADLINE BY WHICH AD HOC COMMITTEE ON PROTECTION OF STATE INFORMATION BILL HAS TO REPORT ON THAT BILL
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the Council extends the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Committee on the Protection of State Information Bill has to report on the Protection of State Information Bill [B 6B – 2010] to 17 May 2012.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 572
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER CODE OF JUDICIAL CONDUCT AND REGULATIONS ON JUDGES' DISCLOSURE OF REGISTRABLE INTERESTS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the Council establishes an ad hoc committee to consider the Code of Judicial Conduct and the Regulations on Judges' Disclosure of Registrable Interests tabled on 20 October 2010 in terms of the Judicial Service Commission Act, 1994 (Act 9 of 1994), the committee to –
(1) take into account the proceedings of the Ad HocJoint Committee on the Code of Judicial Conduct and Regulations on Judges' Disclosure of Registrable Interests initially established to consider this matter;
(2) exercise those powers in Rule 103 that may assist it in carrying out its task;
(3) consist of 9 provinces; and
(4) report by 6 June 2012.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES – Question 1
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 573
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
Question 1:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the question is no. Although international law, as per the judgment of 23 May 2011, to the effect that the state of California must decrease the level of overcrowding to 137,5% during the next two years, is taken into account, it is not compulsory to implement such judgments in South Africa. According to the most recent available official statistics, as on 31 December 2009 the 33 correctional centres in California had a capacity to hold 79 818 inmates, whilst they had 151 482 inmates in detention, therefore constituting a population level of 189,8%.
On (a), the norm is 3,5 inmates per square metre. On (b), in terms of section 84(2)(j) of the Constitution, the President has the power, amongst others, to pardon or reprieve offenders and to remit any fines, penalties or forfeitures.
The answer to the second part of the question is yes. The problem of overcrowding in the South African correctional system has been identified as a key challenge which negatively affects the ability of the South African correctional system to rehabilitate offenders. Correctional centres are on average 34% overpopulated, as per the statistics of 2010-11.
Initiatives to relieve overcrowding are interdepartmental. It is widely recognised that the solution to overcrowding does not reside solely with the Department of Correctional Services. The Integrated Justice System Development Committee, its substructure known as the case management task team, and the Intersectoral Committee on Child Justice are responsible for identifying and addressing backlogs that result in overcrowding. Role-players in these structures include the Department of Correctional Services, safety and security, Justice and Constitutional Development, Social Development and the National Prosecuting Authority.
Legislation to facilitate the possible placement of offenders serving sentences less than 24 months after one quarter of sentence, as against one half on parole, as well as to facilitate the possible placement of offenders sentenced to compulsory minimum sentences after one half, as against the current four fifths, is receiving attention by means of the Correctional Matters Amendment Act, 2011 (Act 5 of 2011).
During 2004 the department implemented a multipronged strategy consisting of the following dimensions: managing levels of remand detainees through the integrated justice system's case management task teams and the Intersectoral Committee on Child Justice; managing levels of sentenced inmates through improving effective and appropriate use of conversion of sentence to community correctional supervision, release on parole, and transfer between correction centres to attempt to establish some degree of evenness with regard to overcrowding; ensuring progress with the department's capital works programme to upgrade correctional facilities and to build correctional centres that are both cost-effective and rehabilitation-oriented; encouraging debate in South Africa about reasons for incarceration as a sentence, and encouraging an approach to appropriate sentencing that is focused on facilitating rehabilitation; enhancing community correctional supervision so that it can be better utilised as an appropriate sentence for less serious crimes; improving corrections and development programmes in the department to ensure and enhance facilitation of rehabilitation that targets offender behaviour; encouraging improvement of first and second levels of corrections in the family and social institutions, including economic sector government departments, commensurate with entry into the criminal justice system; and, finally, encouraging community involvement in social reintegration of offenders back into the community in order to assist in reducing levels of repeat offending.
On 31 May 2005 the President granted a specific period of special remission of sentence to sentenced offenders, amongst others, to enhance the humane detention of inmates. The impact of that decree was a decrease of 24,6% in the overpopulation rate from 62,51% during 2004-5 to 37,91% during 2007-08.
The effective use of section 62(f) of the Criminal Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977, which allows for a court to release an accused on bail, with the provision that the accused is supervised by a probation officer, a correctional official, or a community corrections office, is actively propagated. It is hoped that more awareness of this section will succeed in alleviating the fears of courts regarding the granting of bail and thus ensure that more accused persons are granted supervised bail instead of awaiting trial in correctional centres. As we speak, of the approximately 160 000 inmates in our facilities, a third are awaiting-trial inmates.
According section 63(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977, the head of a correctional centre may apply to a court to release certain awaiting-trial detainees if the conditions in the correctional centre will result in a material threat to the human dignity, physical health or safety of the accused; or the accused is charged with an offence for which a police official may grant bail;or theaccused was granted bail by the court but could not afford to pay the bail amount.
The impact of the initiatives mentioned is that they managed to further decrease the overcrowding rate of 37,91% during 2007-08 to 34% in 2010-11, as against a target of 38%. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr Z MLENZANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 573
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr Z MLENZANA: Thanks, Deputy Minister, for your answer. Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister, this question is one question, though it looks as if it is multipronged. My follow-up question is: Is the hon Deputy Minister not contradicting himself when he answers in the negative to the first part of the question and in the affirmative to the second part, and correctly and satisfactory states the processes going forward? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, the first part of the question refers to whether we are going to implement decisions relating to the California case. The second part of the question deals with what we are doing in South Africa to alleviate overcrowding. There are no contradictions at all. Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES – Question 2
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 574
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 2:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The reply to the first part of the question is yes. The implementation of Operation Funda has been successful. For a school to be registered as a full-time school by the Department of Basic Education, it must meet certain resource-related requirements. Hence, as part of the extension of Operation Funda, there are full-time schools for youth offenders which are now in operation. I will not enumerate them – this record will be made available and members can see for themselves where we are and where we are not.
Furthermore, the department has successfully implemented an e-literacy project in partnership with the Presidential National Commission for a three-year cycle from 2009 to 2012, and has trained 770 offenders, which includes youths and females.
We have registered a total of 33 examination centres for NATFTED programmes and 20 examination centres for the National Certificate Vocational with the department of Higher Education and Training on the provision of Further Education and Training programmes.
We have also advertised 19 technical level educators' posts at the Free State and Northern Cape Tswelopele correctional centres. We have also registered 50 offenders on an artisan development programme in partnership with the Safety and Security Sector Education and Training Authority, Sasseta. We have registered 15 offenders on accredited brick-laying and plastering programmes at Mafikeng Correctional Centre. So the list continues. You will have the details of that.
The answer to the second part of the question is yes. The process is under way. Currently, the department has reviewed its formal education policy in order to make it compulsory for youth offenders up to the age of 25 to attend school. This will be enacted as soon as the departmental regulations have been approved by Parliament.
Recently a business case on classroom needs was submitted for approval by the commissioner. Should this be successful, more access to education opportunities will be available to offenders.
Some new centres have already been resourced, with funds for the procurement of computers and learner and teacher support materials.
Partnerships with the Departments of Basic Education and of Higher Education and Training, as well as extended stakeholders, have been established to enhance programme provisioning for offenders. For example, the Bubblegum/Liberty Life Educational Foundation partnership has donated the materials to establish full-time schools in the department. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES – Question 3
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 574
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 3:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, the department has one employment equity plan which is informed by the employment equity data from all regions. I repeat, the department has one employment equity plan which is informed by the employment equity data from all regions. The department has an approved national employment equity committee consisting of officials from the department, as well as recognised labour unions.
There was consultation with relevant stakeholders on the equity plan. Not all relevant stakeholders could be consulted concerning the development of that plan, and there are individuals in the Western Cape who are challenging the application of the targets in different forums and in terms of labour legislation. However, since the department consulted widely when drawing up its plan, it has not received any expressions of concern from regional labour organisations such as Popcru.
All advertised positions have been filled after following the relevant human resource procedures.
The answer to the second part of the question is that the department has one employment equity plan which is informed by data from all regions – one employment equity plan which is informed by our data from regions. This looks like a repetition. Yes, I've done.
Mr M H MOKGOBI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 574
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr M H MOKGOBI: Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to get a sense of how the department is dealing with the challenges from the Western Cape.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Can the member repeat the question?
Mr M H MOKGOBI: In the Deputy Minister's answer there was an indication that there are certain groupings in the Western Cape that are challenging this. I just wanted to get clarity.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: We are applying the equities across the country and we are not making specific exceptions for any region. This is basically what is informing us. We treat the country as one. The department is one, countrywide.
Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, this question is not only about equity; it is also about rehabilitation, which is the central pillar of correctional services. Now when it comes to rehabilitation we must also think of language. In Sekhukhune, in Limpopo, it is Sepedi. Here in the Western Cape the inmates communicate in Afrikaans. In KwaZulu-Natal it is isiZulu. Now, we must also take that into consideration. We are not challenging that. I am saying we must also take that into consideration when it comes to the implementation of rehabilitation. [Interjection.] You are going to prison one day, and you will see! [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, I asked for follow-up questions, and not for statements. Thank you very much.
Mr J J GUNDA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 574
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr J J GUNDA: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to point out to the Deputy Minister that something has been asked in section 4 of that same question, but I don't think the Deputy Minister has answered that question. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister this follow-up question: The Minister has said that 100% of those posts have been filled. There are posts in which people have now been acting for more than 16 months. So, we are asking the question. If the Minister says that it is 100%, why are there still acting regional managers in Correctional Services?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, I'm afraid I cannot commit myself to an answer to that question. I will have to do my homework and come back to the House. Thank you.
Mr J J GUNDA: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Gunda, I think I am not going to entertain anything further in that regard. The Deputy Minister has answered you. Can we bear with him on this, because there might be another time to go into detail? Please.
Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Deputy Chair, I just wanted to ask the Deputy Minister if he would be willing to give to me in writing what he has just said.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, I will give the hon member the answer in writing because that is a new question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Deputy Minister, you need not have answered the hon member, as I have already spoken to him.
Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, no new questions. Please take your seat. Please. Take your seat.
An HON MEMBER: Why?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon members, I want to call the House to order. We all know how many follow-up questions we are allowed. So let's not create a circus.
An HON MEMBER: Let the Chairperson decide. You are the Chief Whip, not the Deputy Chairperson. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, can we be disciplined for a change, and follow the procedures? Otherwise I am not going to hesitate to tell someone to march out of this House.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES – Question 4
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 575
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 4:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, there was previously no Medical Parole Advisory Board. All recommendations for medical parole were made by a medical practitioner to the Correctional Services Parole Board for consideration.
In terms of the newly established Correctional Matters Amendment Act of 2011, an independent medical report will be provided to the National Commissioner, the Correctional Supervision and Parole Board or the Minister, as the case may be, on the appropriateness to grant medical parole in accordance with section 79(1)(a) of the Act.
Yes, an increase in the scope and magnitude of the work of the newly established Medical Parole Advisory Board is anticipated for the following reasons. In the Correctional Services Act of 1998 the criterion to be considered for placement on medical grounds was that the offender had to be in the last phase of a terminal illness, whereas in the amendment to the Correctional Services Regulations, 2004, an offender had to be suffering from one or more of the infectious and noninfectious conditions identified in regulation 29A(5).
Previously, in terms of the Correctional Services Act, 1998, the process for consideration for placement on medical grounds was initiated by a professional nurse or medical practitioner, based on the offender's health and conditions, whereas in the new process application for medical parole can be made by the offender or any legal applicant, who can be a professional nurse, a medical practitioner, the next of kin or even a legal representative.
The answer to the next part of the question is yes, an organisational structure filling all the required posts for the Medical Parole Advisory Board has been approved for implementation. This structure reflects the following posts: chairperson, vice-chairperson, and 14 registered medical officers. A dedicated support structure has also been approved for each of the six regions and the head office. Furthermore, the department has identified three units, which will provide additional support to the board. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, I hope you are not coming with a new question. Can you be patient?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 575
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. He must just know that it was my question. I want to check something with the Deputy Minister. Firstly, thank you, Deputy Minister. I want to know if the existing board will consider offenders who were already on their deathbeds before it was established.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, the new board will follow on from the previous board; it will be in the shoes of the previous board. So, it will take on any responsibility that the previous board would taken on. It inherits its responsibilities and obligations. Thank you.
Mr O DE BEER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 575
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr O DE BEER: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I just want to check if Jackie Selebi's friends are now also going to be entitled to apply to this new Medical Parole Advisory Board? Thank you. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, I think I have enumerated the people who are qualified to apply. Thank you.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 575
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister if he has any idea of the number of terminally ill inmates at the Correctional Services facilities, because this would obviously also help to relieve the overcrowding situation. Is there any indication of the number of persons involved? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, I think this is a new question. Maybe the hon member can give it to me and we can give him the answer in writing. It is new but I think it is a genuine question – it's new but genuine.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, on a point of order, is it the prerogative of the Minister or the Chairperson to decide if it is a new question or not?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, we are doing serious work here. Do you understand? Please, don't come and start disturbing the House. [Interjections.] No! No! No! Sit down, Minister. [Interjections.] It is. I say it is.
Mr D JOSEPH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 575
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr D JOSEPH: Thank you, hon Deputy Chair. I would like to put a question arising out of the Deputy Minister's reply. He indicated that the current advisory board has to a certain extent stepped into the "shoes" of the previous advisory board. My question is whether the new advisory board will consider the cases of people who are out on parole and who have recovered to such an extent that they should be put back into jail. Is that part of the criteria of the advisory board? Those people have recovered to the extent that they can go and play golf and live a normal life. Is that part of the "shoes" of the previous advisory board? Does the current board also take that into account, that people must return if they have fully recovered and they are healthy.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, I think I should be protected by the Rules. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Study your Rules, and may I say something? Hearing is a skill, and if we could be very attentive when all these Ministers that are seated here are answering the questions, we would actually cut down the time we are wasting almost totally. Thank you. Next question.
Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, my hand is up. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, that was the last chance. Thank you very much. I am not going to entertain your request. [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: No! Deputy Chairperson, I insist on addressing you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, that was the last question and, if you are not going to be attentive, do me a favour and walk out. [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, I would rather walk out. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Please, walk out! [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: But I am not going to ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No! Walk out, Mr Bloem! I'm not ... [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, I am going to do that, because my hand was up long ago, Chairperson, and you ignored my hand. It is not correct, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Lodge your complaint!
Mr D V BLOEM: I will walk out, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Walk out!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES – Question 5
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 576
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 5:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, on (1), the answer to the question is yes, the relevant official was charged with misconduct in an internal process. The official, however, resigned on 29 October 2010. The matter has since been handed over to the SAPS and is currently the subject of investigations by the Hawks, and therefore sub judice.
On (2), yes, the department initiated a process of preparation for the insourcing of nutrition services in March 2011 and by December 2011 we found that the state of readiness was such that the department was not able to take over the responsibility.
Faced with inadequate time to advertise a new tender, the department extended the existing contract to cover the period required for the department to complete the preparations for the insourcing of nutrition services.
The timeline for the nutrition services to be insourced is the end of January 2013. Readiness for the insourcing of nutrition services will be completed within the period of the extension of the current contracts. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 576
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, thank you for the answer. This indeed confirms all our attempts as the ANC to fight corruption and tenderpreneurship wherever we find them.
In the latter part of your answer you indicated that the deadline was at the end of January 2013, and we would like to understand the current situation in regard to nutrition services to the prisoners?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: We have extended the current arrangements until 2013.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 576
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. My question to the Deputy Minister is: did the department terminate the contract between the department and the said contractors?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: As we speak, the contract has expired. We are in a transition phase. So, what we are doing is basically getting Public Works and everybody involved.
For instance, we don't own the facilities in the kitchens. Just to give you an example of what we are talking about when we speak of readiness, we are now fitting new kitchens in our big facilities. That is where this contract is operating. Secondly, we are employing nutritionists. Those are the things we are trying to do to address the question of readiness.
We will then hopefully issue a new contract. Oh, we will not be issuing a new contract because we are insourcing – we are coming in. If we get all those capacities and capabilities within the department, then come the end of January 2013 we as the department will be providing food in our facilities ourselves. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Order! Can we proceed to the questions to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans? [Interjections.] Hon members, the Deputy Minister of Defence and Military Veterans is not here, so we will proceed to the questions put to the Minister of Home Affairs.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS – Question 9
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 577
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 9:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Just hold on, Deputy Minister. Hon Lees.
Mr R A LEES: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Could we have a reason why the Minister is not available today please?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Unfortunately, I have no answer right now. Can we proceed?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you again, Chairperson. The response to (a) in the question, the total number of offices of the Department of Home Affairs in rented buildings in each province, is as follows: Free State 14, KwaZulu-Natal 28, Gauteng 30, Northern Cape 12, Limpopo 12, Western Cape 25, Eastern Cape 64, Mpumalanga 18, and North West 10. The total is 213 offices.
In response to the rest of the question, it is regretted that we cannot answer it, and it is suggested that the hon member refer this part of the parliamentary question to the Minister of Public Works, as the Department of Public Works is responsible for the accommodation needs of government departments and therefore responsible for the final payment of rent to service providers. Thank you very much.
Mr T E CHAANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 577
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mr T E CHAANE: Chairperson, while we know that the Department of Public Works will know the figures, is it not so that the Department of Home Affairs itself should also be privy to suchinformation?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, perhaps I can explain the procedure as follows. The Department of Home Affairs pays over a certain amount to the Department of Public Works. The question on the Order Paper refers to whether there are, in fact, rental amounts that are in arrears. As far as we as the Department of Home Affairs are concerned, we have paid what we have owed to the Department of Public Works. As to whether they have indeed paid service providers is information that we would have to derive from them. Likewise, I think that the question ought to be directed to that Ministry.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS – Question 10
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 578
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Question 10:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The response to the first part of the question is as follows. A total of 20 employees have been suspended for corruption and fraud, so far in the 2011-12 financial year.
With regard to the second part of the question, 2(a) and (b), the answer is yes, the nature of the allegations ranges from soliciting bribes from illegal foreigners in exchange for the endorsement of passports with fraudulent visas and permits, and altering information or residential status on the department's movement control system, to further aiding ... [Interjections.] I'm not sure, Chairperson, whether this is a point of order or whether I'm meant to continue.
Mr J J GUNDA: On a point of order, Deputy Chair: I just want to find out if the Deputy Minister may answer the question while the member who asked the question is not here. Is that allowed? That is all I am asking.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): May I give you some information? The hon Nesi is not in, but the hon Nzimande has been asked to stand in for him. The hon Deputy Minister may continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I would have thought, Deputy Chairperson, that Members of Parliament would have been interested in the responses, regardless of whether the member who asked the question was here or not! It was, after all, the responsibility of Members of Parliament to hold us to account the last time I checked.
To continue, the nature of the allegations ranges from soliciting bribes from illegal foreigners in exchange for the endorsement of passports with fraudulent visas and permits and altering information or residential status on the department's movement control system, to further aiding and abetting illegal foreigners. Some of these officials were found in possession of ID documents outside the offices of the department without permission, and were hence put on suspension.
The answer to the third part of the question is as follows. While there's no formal programme that exists, the department has, however, established community stakeholder forums in very many provinces of the Republic, and these forums are inter alia meant to advocate and to educate people on countering corruption. The Minister's office also has a hotline where not only complaints can be lodged, but compliments can be paid as well. We often also get tip-offs with regard to cases of corruption. This hotline was well publicised in the general media. I thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Nzimande, is there a follow-up question? Not? All right.
Mr A G MATILA
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Mr A G MATILA: Chairperson, thank you very much. Maybe the Minister can give us more information in relation to section (2) of the question, as this brings us to what Parliament is currently busy with regarding the Protection of State Information Bill. Are these problems, which it has been agreed exist, really the reason why this Bill has become important, to make sure that it protects the citizens of this country?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I'm not sure whether the hon member is referring to the Bill that has been tabled by the hon Minister of State Security. If that's the Bill that the hon member is referring to, I'm also not sure to what extent it relates to the answer in section (2).
The issue with regard to information on the Home Affairs database is one that pertains to national security and in that respect there is, I imagine, some convergence. As to whether this would, in fact, necessarily be called classified information, let me say that it is a secure database. Even without the Bill that is being referred to, access to this database is very restricted and will continue to be so, simply because of the nature of the information contained on the database.
Mr A G MATILA: Chairperson, this is a follow-up question. When the hon Deputy Minister answered section (2) of the question, she said there was collusion in regard to fraud and all the other things. My understanding of this Bill is that it will deal with all the problems we are referring to.
I was just checking whether she agreed with that process. You see, there are now people who are married and who don't even know who married them! There is also destruction of information as far as Home Affairs is concerned. I was just checking whether they are trying to solve that particular problem or not, because if you don't know what you are trying to do, it's a problem. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Perhaps I could clarify and say that one of the measures that we are taking to ensure that the information on our database is not accessed for illicit purposes, is that we have installed on our system a biometric feed, so every time an official accesses information on our system, that official will need to have his or her fingerprint scanned before he or she will have access to that information.
This is one of the ways in which we will prevent the illicit use of that information, for purposes other than the purposes it is meant for. If, for instance, fraudulent documents are issued, we are able to trace precisely who has issued those documents with this system. I hope that that answers the concern of the hon member, because clearly the issue of securing the information on our database is a priority for us.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Lees?
Mr R A LEES
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Mr R A LEES: Hon Chairperson, thank you for recognising me but, with your indulgence, may I ask that you take the hand of the hon Van Lingen, who's been trying to indicate her intention to ask a question for a little while.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You're grown up! Hon Van Lingen?
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, Chairperson. I did have my hand up with the first follow-up question and I appreciate the fact that you are being very kind today.
I would like to ask the Deputy Minister if any criminal charges have been laid against the officials in this particular case. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: It is standard procedure, Chairperson, through you, to ensure that criminal charges are also laid with the authorities. May I just say that the question pertained to how many officials were suspended, and so the answer necessarily related to the suspensions. Of course, there are those who have left our employ as well, as a consequence of corrupt and fraudulent activities, but it is a matter of process and procedure that we lay criminal charges with the relevant authorities when such matters come to light.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I would like to appeal to all of you, and to the Ministers who are here to answer questions, that we should prioritise the Minister of State Security, so that he is the next in line, because the Presidency wants him to go and deal with some other crucial matters.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS – Question 11
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 11:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the question is yes. The Department of Home Affairs has installed the integrated electronic security systems in 47 of its offices nationally, in order to monitor staff and detect illegal and corrupt activities. This was done after an evaluation process of the status of security in the respective offices.
The objective of these installations is to protect assets, information and employees. They also provide a means to augment the human resource capacity utilised for physical security purposes at the different offices. A mechanism to detect illicit activities by both members of the public and employees of the department whilst on the premises of the department, is yet another objective of these installations.
The department is in the process of rolling out the system to all its other offices. However, the process has huge cost implications, which necessitates that it be undertaken over an extended period of time.
Secondly, the preliminary indications regarding the rooting out of corruption and fraud in the department are that the installed integrated electronic security system is indeed assisting in the fight against corruption. It is also working well as a deterrent to would-be perpetrators. On two separate occasions perpetrators were caught on camera and they have been prosecuted, both departmentally and criminally.
The recently installed system at the department's head office in Pretoria also has the capacity to assist the department to monitor the time on task and attendance of employees to their duties. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Nzimande, do you have a follow-up question? No? Thank you.
Mrs B L ABRAHAMS
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, I would like to know if the staff was notified prior to the installation of the webcams. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, what I do know is that there were consultations with the union representatives prior to the installations. As to whether each and every staff member was, in fact, given notification, I will have check that. I will then come back to you with the response. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
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Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister seems to be quite dedicated to wanting to root out corruption and fraud in the department. However, I am a little bit nervous in regard to the fact that it appears that once you have left the department, you don't have to be criminally charged. That is exactly where we have to root out the crime, because otherwise I can just resign and not be criminally charged when I know that I have done something wrong. Can the Deputy Minister just help me out on this one, and tell me that she is prosecuting even those who have resigned? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Just to clarify ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Sorry, hon Minister. Hon Van Lingen, can you be specific? What is your question? Do you want to know whether those that have resigned are going to be charged or not?
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, as I indicated in my response to the previous question, it is part and parcel of how we process these matters to ensure that where there are allegations of criminal misconduct we not only discipline people who work for us, but also lay criminal charges against them. This happens whether or not they have left the department.
As to whether we ourselves will prosecute those individuals, well, we don't prosecute. It is the Department of Justice, and in particular the Office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions, that prosecute those individuals. It makes no difference whether they have left our department or not. One assumes that in the normal course of events the National Director of Public Prosecutions will continue with those criminal processes.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY – Question 30
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Question 30:
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chair, for your understanding and kindness. Regarding Question 30, very briefly, the answer to (1) is none, and (2) is not applicable. We say so because there are no civil society groups, organisations or persons who are under surveillance by the State Security Agency solely because of their opposition to the Protection of State Information Bill. I thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Any follow-up question? Mr Lees? Hon Lees, could you answer me please?
Mr R A LEES: No, Madam Deputy Chair.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY – Question 31
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Mr R A LEES
Question 31:
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, regarding Questions 30 and 31, I would like to say the following. This and the previous question are related, and we note with deep concern that the National Council of Provinces is increasingly asking questions pertaining to national security. These questions are relatively more than those which we are asked in the National Assembly.
We are not saying that we don't want to answer questions, but that the law demands that we protect our sources and methods. So, I am just saying that that's why we have a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, where we answer questions in full. Because these questions pertain to matters of policy and the Bills which are in the public domain at the moment, we have decided that we should try to answer them.
I would like to say that the hon member Lees put a similar question during the meeting with Ad Hoc Committee on the Protection of State Information Bill in the NCOP, which is processing this legislation. This meeting was held on 24 January 2012. I provided a detailed response, and I wish to refer the hon member to the record of that meeting.
However, in a spirit of openness, I even said the following then in my speech in the National Assembly – I offer to give him a copy of the Hansard and, of course, I will give him a copy of what I said in the National Assembly, and I stand by it. I indicated that I did not call any organisation a proxy of foreign spies. That was in that meeting of the National Assembly.
I continued in the said meeting and said that there were a group of categories of persons that were aggrieved by this Bill, but they wouldn't come to the public and put their view that they were aggrieved.
I said in that meeting that the first category was the corrupt official. There is no corrupt official who is going to come to the committees of Parliament and say he or she is against the Protection of Information Bill because it's going to make it harder for him or her to continue with his or her corruption or corrupt activities. Nor will the lazy official.
I said another category was foreign spies. There is no foreign spy who is going to come to the committee of the NCOP to say he or she is against this Bill because it cuts his or her easy access to the critical information that this country has.
I said that the last category was the information peddler. You are not going to find any information peddler who is going to say he or she is a peddler by profession and this Bill is cutting his or her wellbeing.
So, it was in that context that we gave a full explanation. I therefore submit that, Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Mr R A LEES
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Mr R A LEES: Hon Deputy Chair, I thank the hon Minister for his reply. May I follow up and ask the Minister if he can confirm to this House that indeed he did not in his speech, as contained in Hansard, say that there were local proxies for foreign spies? Can you confirm that that is not contained in your speech and not in Hansard? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. I will quote. I think I should just read it because the member is so suspicious. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Gamede.
Mr D D GAMEDE: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: The Rules do not allow us to discuss matters of the other House. I just want to have your ruling on this matter.
Mr A G MATILA: Deputy Chairperson, thank you very much. Deputy Chair, I am part of that committee too, and this matter has been answered. The issue is that Mr Lees must indicate to this House who he is representing. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Lees, are you prepared to answer the last question? [Laughter.]
Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, there is no provision in the Rules of this House for a member to ask another member a question during a sitting of the House. Therefore I do not have to answer any questions at this stage.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): All right.
Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, I wish to ask then, seeing that a point of order was raised by the hon Gamede in regard to the discussions taking place in this House today relating to the National Assembly, can we please be told which Rule it is that precludes such a discussion taking place?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hayi [No], I am stopping this. May I make a ruling? [Interjections.] Hon members, may I make a ruling? No, no, hon Lees. I am making a ruling – you can sit down. We are not going to continue discussing this any further.
Hon Minister, if that was your last answer, you are excused and may leave the Chamber.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Madam Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Sinclair.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, I want to speak on a principle which does not apply just to today, but has over time become very prevalent in this House, and it is unfortunate to say the least. It is unfortunate that all the time you continuously prevent specific members from asking proper questions, and when we ask for a specific reference in regard to the Rules of this honourable House ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): What is your point of order?
Mr K A SINCLAIR: All that I am pleading for, Chairperson, is that the Rules of the House that allow hon members to ask open and objective questions are implemented. [Interjections.]
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, I think the hon member is calling for an order, but he is not indicating the order. What is your order?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member! Hon member, I never gave you permission to talk! [Laughter.] I am now saying we should continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman) – Question 12
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 12:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Hon Chairperson, the answer is yes, South Africa does recognise Somalia as a sovereign state. Somalia has, for the past two decades, been plagued by internal strife that has resulted in a most unusual state of affairs, which has not been conducive to the creation of stable and effective governance.
In spite of all those extreme challenges though, Somalia still remains a full member of the United Nations, UN, and the African Union, AU. As such, the country continues to enjoy the full rights and duties accorded to sovereign states under international law. The SA High Commission in Kenya is therefore the focal point for all interaction between South Africa and Somalia.
The question regarding the status of Somali refugees entering South Africa and their protection in this country is a matter that falls within the area of jurisdiction of the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, in co-ordination with the South African Minister of Home Affairs.
The answer to the second part to that question is yes, there are official exchanges between our government and the transitional federal government at a senior level. The latter is internationally recognised. A visit to South Africa by the Somali Minister of Foreign Affairs is planned and it is expected that the agreement will be signed during that visit.
South Africa is also of the opinion that a political solution is the only option for resolving the situation in the country, and continues to engage all stakeholders who still remain outside of the peace process, in order for them to participate in the talks to ensure an inclusive Somali-owned process and solution. Consequently, South Africa is in the process of exploring ways to assist in capacity-building activities for key Somali ministries. This includes assistance in the areas of governance, the judiciary, peace-building and constitutional building.
The Minister of International Relations and Co-operation attended an international conference on Somalia hosted by the United Kingdom, on 23 February 2012. The gathering afforded South Africa an opportunity to reiterate its position and call for an inclusive Somali-owned peace process.
At this point I can also thank South African society, both the public and the private sectors. This includes civil society, large NGOs, and community-based organisations who, in the past year, have been actively involved in the humanitarian situation in that country, and offered logistical support to efforts by the Southern African Development Community, SADC, countries aimed at combating the crisis in Mogadishu and other parts of Somalia. In fact, South Africa, through its patriotic responsibility, collectively contributed no less than R60 million. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Seeing that the hon Bloem is not in the House, is anybody from Cope going to be putting a follow-up question on his behalf?
Mr D B FELDMAN: No, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman) – Question 13
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 13:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Deputy Chairperson, the government of South Africa co-operates with the government of Swaziland within the broad framework of the Joint Bilateral Commission for Co-operation. Its main objective is to promote political, economic and social co-operation. In this regard, therefore, recognising the territorial sovereignty of Swaziland, South Africa remains ready to assist the people of the country in finding a lasting solution to their own political and economic challenges.
On the second part of that question, the two countries have agreed on economic and political reforms, as contained in the draft memorandum of understanding, MoU. Determining a mutually acceptable date for the finalisation of that process is still outstanding. At the level of international relations portfolios, we have already come to certain agreements in that regard. Thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister if that memorandum of agreement or understanding is linked to the further establishment of democracy in Swaziland?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Deputy Chairperson, we have an MoU that recognises very critical issues around reforms, especially at the level of financing, as well as further institutional mechanisms. These were obviously a bone of contention sometime last year, but most of that has been resolved.
We must respect the fact that South Africa respects the sovereignty of the country, and is negotiating the process within that. We have clear regulatory processes to which we need to conform. These are the types of discussions and issues that we have there. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman) – Question 15
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Question 13:
Question 15:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Deputy Chairperson, the question relates to the advancement and recognition of the indigenous people and it asks why the government does not promote this. The question is wrong. The question should possibly rather have been: Why does the government in the Western Cape not recognise the plight of the indigenous community?
The South African government does promote and advance the cause of the recognition of the indigenous people of South Africa. The involvement of the department in the issue of Khoi and San communities is derived primarily from international instruments that provide for the promotion and the protection of the rights of indigenous people. Key existing instruments and mechanisms in this regard are the following: the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples; the International Labour Organisation Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention; the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues; and the United Nations Expert Mechanism on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
So, yes, we are very closely monitoring that process. There is an intergovernmental team led by Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, in this regard, which processes critical issues in the advancement and the promotion of the Khoi and the San community in South Africa.
Mr D JOSEPH
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mr D JOSEPH: Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to ask the hon Deputy Minister if the government is able to make available the entire database, as the Deputy Minister is claiming.
I also find it very interesting that the Deputy Minister has referred to the Western Cape, because it is the national government's responsibility to provide the database, which includes the indigenous people of the Western Cape. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Deputy Chairperson, we have a national institution dealing with the Khoi and the San, and that is a structure representing that constituency at the national level, in partnership in this case with Cogta. At that level they are rolling out an analysis, a database and information, etc.
On the issue of the Western Cape, it is the only province involved in this. On 7 August 2011 the indigenous community of the Western Cape requested an engagement with the President, the premier and the mayor. Official letters to the institution – the Khoi and the San community – from the premier's office indicated that she did not recognise them. Clearly that is a very serious issue. It's an issue that we have to take up, especially in relation to our international responsibility in the country and it is something that will be taken up.
The plight of the Khoi and the San community is critical. We have recently seen even a disregard of what happened before 1652 and the fact that the Khoi and San were in the Cape area. These are issues that we will take up seriously with the Western Cape government.
Mr F ADAMS
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mr F ADAMS: Deputy Chairperson, in regard to the response of the Deputy Minister, I want to find out what the Department of International Relations and Co-Operation, or the Deputy Minister's office specifically, is going to do about this issue of the Western Cape. He said quite rightly that the Western Cape does not recognise our indigenous people, whether they are the Khoisan, or others – they do not recognise them. What steps can your department take, Deputy Minister, to force them into that recognition? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Chairperson, the Department of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs which, as I indicated earlier, is the domestic custodian of these matters, has been processing the new National Traditional Affairs Bill. The Minister who sits just in front of me and who was the acting Minister at that time drove a process – I think in August, September and October – to get consultation with the Khoi and the San community, so that we could make sure that we put it into legislation. This is precisely to deal with the pockets of the Western Cape that refuse to appreciate the rights of the indigenous society in this country. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Unfortunately, that was the last chance to co-own this question. There has been a mention of Cogta, and people must understand what that means.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman) – Question 16
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 16:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Hon Deputy Chair, the answer is yes. Secondly, we are aware of the growing trend of African countries to recruit South African farmers for agricultural projects and commercial farming. This is in the Republic of the Congo, Nigeria and Burkina Faso, etc. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would also like to know if there are agreements with these countries with regard to the security of the property of the farmers who go there.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Hon Chairperson, we have bilateral agreements with the countries that have been identified, and the countries themselves have critical legislation in that regard. If you as a commercial farmer, or a business person in general, engage in work in a particular country, obviously you subscribe to the principles and the law of that country. Overriding all of that is the type of bilateral relations that we have. In that context, when people enter those countries at the level of business, they need to abide by the legislation that applies.
Mr D A WORTH
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, I would like to know whether the Deputy Minister has and could make available any figures on the number of South African farmers who are now farming, for argument's sake, in Mozambique, the Congo, Georgia, Angola and all of these places. Are such figures available? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): I suspect that that question should be directed to the relevant department dealing with agriculture.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman) – Question 17
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Question 17:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman): Deputy Chairperson, the answer is yes. As a nonpermanent member of the UN Security Council for the two-year period 2011 to 2012, South Africa has definitely been participating actively in all the deliberations of the council on the developments in Syria since the start of public protests in that country.
During these discussions, South Africa made it clear that it was opposed to any form of external intervention to bring about a regime change in Syria, as had happened in Libya, and that it was up to the Syrian people themselves to bring about the changes in government they desired through an all-inclusive national dialogue free of violence and intimidation. In the UN Security Council South Africa supported a draft resolution introduced by the League of Arab States which reflected this approach. It was vetoed by China and Russia. In the UN General Assembly, where there is no veto right, South Africa subsequently voted in favour of a similar resolution, which was adopted by an overwhelming majority.
The answer to the second part to that question is yes. South Africa has actively engaged at high level with the Syrian authorities in this context, both bilaterally and within the framework of the India-Brazil-South Africa, Ibsa, forum.
The situation in Syria was also discussed during a meeting of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, the Brics countries. Talks have also been held with the secretary-general of the League of Arab States, and those discussions continue.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT – Question 18.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr M L Fransman)
Question 18:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, the answer is that we are aware that a practising advocate may choose to be a member either of the General Council of the Bar of South Africa, GCB, or of an independent Bar. The rules for admission to a Bar are set by the GCB or the independent Bar concerned.
The GCB has indeed readmitted some of the members struck from the roll on account of their involvement in the struggle, and some have been readmitted posthumously. The readmission of Duma Nokwe is one such example.
The department keeps and maintains the register of admitted advocates and re-enters the name of any advocate whose name has been readmitted by a court of law.
The situation of attorneys is slightly different from that of advocates. Attorneys must belong to a law society which has jurisdiction in the area where such attorney practises. Similarly, an attorney who has been removed from the roll due to his involvement in the struggle may be re-enrolled through his or her own application to court or through a law society.
The Department of Justice, in its regular interactions with the legal profession, does encourage the readmittance to the bar of lawyers who were previously banned from practising as a result of their links with the liberation movements. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT – Question 19
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Question 19:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Chairperson, yes, the Department of Justice is considering introducing some stringent legislation to deal with hate crime, hate speech and discrimination. The department is in the process of finalising a draft policy framework with a view to developing measures to combat hate crime, hate speech and other forms of unfair discrimination.
In this regard the department has initiated research into the development of legislation that will introduce the concept of hate crime into our criminal law. Also the concept of hate speech will be refined in a way that reflects South Africa's commitment to high standards of free expression, while at the same time combating hate speech, making it a crime, and possibly making other forms of unfair discrimination a crime.
Regarding the issue of bail, the bail procedures under sections 60(1) and 60(11) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 are structured in such a way as to impose different legal tests in relation to the question of whether an accused should be released on bail, pending his or her trial and depending on the seriousness of the offence with which he or she is charged. The seriousness of the charge is determined by the Schedule to the Act under which it falls. As matters stand, the Schedule to the Criminal Procedure Act under which a charge falls for the purpose of determining the relevant bail tests is not affected by the fact that the crime in question is a hate crime.
The draft policy framework intends to address this issue by proposing appropriate amendments to the Schedules to the Criminal Procedure Act, in order to ensure that all hate crimes, irrespective of their nature, fall within Schedule 6, if not Schedule 5.
The department will be submitting the draft policy framework to the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster in order to elicit comments and inputs on the draft policy proposals, whereafter I will proceed to commence with a public participation process. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr D JOSEPH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 584
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr D JOSEPH: Deputy Chair, in the context of the statement made that confirmed racist behaviour should be a punishable crime in the context of our racial history, I would like to know from the Minister why we are not able to establish rehabilitation centres for those people who step over the line. In regard to racist behaviour in the context of our history, where people were misled about whether it was wrong, I would promote rehabilitation centres before we punish people for that behaviour. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I don't know how one rehabilitates a racist. I think this law will go a long way towards punishing all those who want to return us to the dark days of apartheid. We know the trauma and the crises that the system of apartheid created, not only in South Africa, but also in neighbouring states. That is why the UN declared apartheid a crime against humanity and a threat to world peace. So this proposal that we will put forward is meant to ensure that those people who continue to practice hate crimes and other intolerances are in jail, as they belong there.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 584
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, in regard to the remarks that the Minister has made specifically in relation to this question, can one then assume that the same would be applicable, for instance, to a song like Kill the Boer, which was sung by the youth leader who has now been ... [Inaudible.] Thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, we are not going to entertain that one, because it was dealt with by the courts and ... [Interjection.] Please, please, with due respect, I listened to you; could you do the same? Really, we don't have to drag other people back to that platform. That is my request to you. Thank you. Next answer.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chair, I rise on a point of order: I am back to the issue of the principle that you are not objective in how you deal with questions that we pose. It is really a very serious matter, the way that you suppress ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, will you please take your seat? We are not going to go back to the archives to pull out all of that record and restart the case here. We are asking the Ministers to answer questions because we are open to learning, but the case that you bringing up right now does not belong here.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: But, with due respect, hon Deputy Chairperson ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): I do respect you. However, I have made a ruling; please, hon member, will you take your seat?
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, in that case I will follow the example of hon Bloem, and I will leave the House, because you are suppressing open ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, I am not suppressing anything. This is irrelevant.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: It is not irrelevant.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Minister, please answer the next question.
An HON MEMBER: Bloem is waiting for you!
An HON MEMBER: Yes, he is waiting; we are going to court. Bye-bye. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You want to go to court? I'll meet you there. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT – Question 20
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 585
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 20:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, yes, the judges' recent statements have been brought to my attention by the Chief Justice, and they were also raised at the recent Heads of Court meeting of 10 February this year.
The answer to the second part of the question is yes, there are ongoing discussions with the judiciary ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Sorry, Minister. Hon members, can we listen to what is being said here, so that we will not be putting follow-up questions that are about something that is being discussed right now? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I was saying that the hon member may be aware of the media statement issued by the Chief Justice after my meeting with the Heads of Court in February this year, where he expressed the judges' willingness and eagerness to declare their own financial interests, but were of the view that the duty to declare interests should not be extended to their spouses and family members.
The hon member may also be aware that Parliament is considering the Regulations on Judges' Disclosure of Registrable Interests, which I tabled in Parliament during November 2010. I will continue to engage with the leadership of the judiciary before the regulations are finalised by Parliament, and I am very optimistic that these regulations will be finalised soon. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT – Question 21
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 585
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Question 21:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, the hon member has requested to know whether the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has made an effort to increase the number of women judges and African women in the judicial system. In this regard it is important to point out that judges are appointed by the President following recommendations by the Judicial Service Commission, whilst magistrates are appointed by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development following recommendations by the Magistrates Commission.
As the hon member is aware, members of the Legislature also serve on these statutory bodies. The hon Mr Nick Koornhof is a member of the Judicial Service Commission, whilst the hon Mr Onell de Beer is a member of the Magistrates Commission. The said hon members would, no doubt, attest to the fact that the need for the judiciary to reflect broadly the race and gender composition of South Africa is an important constitutional imperative that the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates Commission take into account in considering suitable candidates for appointment to the bench.
Although progress has been made, much more needs to be done in regard to gender representivity on the bench. It is, therefore, essential for women to be given the necessary exposure for appointment to the bench. In this regard, the department has adopted a policy to ensure that a significant part of state legal work is allocated to previously disadvantaged practitioners and firms. With the assistance of the Heads of Court we are also increasing the number of females appointed as acting judges and acting magistrates. The training programmes developed by the SA Judicial Education Institute will no doubt further assist in broadening the pool of female candidates for possible appointment to the bench.
I also include the following facts. There were 42 women judges appointed to the bench on 1 January 2009. Thereafter the number increased to 65 women by 31 December 2011. During this period some of the women judges retired, passed away, or were appointed to higher positions. The statistics regarding the total number of women judges in South Africa are as follows: as I have indicated, on 1 January 2009 there were 42, and at the end of 2011 there were 65, which is an increase of 23, making a total of over 35%.
In respect of magistrates, 628 women magistrates were appointed to the bench as of 1 January 2009. Thereafter the number increased to 727 women magistrates at the end of 2011. During that period some of the women magistrates retired, passed away or were appointed to higher positions. The statistics indicate, as I have said, that on 1 January 2009 there were 628, and at the end of December 2011 there were 727 women magistrates, which is an increase of 99. But, in terms of percentage increase, it is a mere 14%. We still have a long way to go in order to ensure that more women magistrates are appointed. Thank you.
Mr Z MLENZANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 585
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr Z MLENZANA: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Thank you, Minister for the response, particularly the very clear breakdown. I would like to check something with the Minister. Notwithstanding the clarity that the Minister has given, that it is not the responsibility of the department per se to employ people, is there no way in which the department could set targets as we go forward for the commissions which do the recruitment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think the hon member should be aware that the appointment procedure is laid down in the Constitution and the law. So we as a department cannot act on our own – there are also the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates Commission. Our responsibility as the executive and the department is to promote the further acceleration of transforming the landscape of judicial appointments. We endeavour, wherever we are, to promote women in particular. It is an embracing process that not only involves Justice on its own, but the judiciary as well.
That is why the training of judges, and – the point that I highlighted – also the pool from which judicial officers have to be appointed, have to be nurtured. That is why we have a major programme in the department trying to make sure that we give work especially to previously disadvantaged practitioners, women in particular, in order to give them the possibility of ensuring that one day they can become members of the bench, either as magistrates or judges.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 585
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to hear the Minister's comments, in relation to the main reply and the subsequent reply, concerning the matter of the magistrate in Gauteng who is female and disabled, and who had to take the Magistrates Commission to court regarding her appointment – she won the case. Has the department learnt any lessons out of that, and are there any plans towork out proper equity plans with the commissions in regard to further engagements? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: We support that wholeheartedly, because this issue in regard to disabled people is a very important component of empowering them. We know that in the apartheid system there were no plans and no vision regarding how to promote and assist all people who living with disabilities. So, that is part of the programme and plan of the department and, as a member of the Judicial Service Commission, as well as the Magistrates Commission, we take that into account.
I think that that case is a lesson for all of us, that we ensure that we constantly promote the transformation of the landscape of our judiciary at all levels. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 22
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 586
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Question 22:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. The answer to the question is yes, the South African Police Service, through the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, has sufficient capacity to fight organised crime. This capacity is mostly concentrated in Gauteng. You will know that according to the statistics and the approach to the fight against crime that is where the crime is concentrated.
Whilst we have the DPCI concentrating on organised crime, there is a multidisciplinary approach in the fight against organised crime. Different divisions within the police, be it visible policing or intelligence, and so on, together with other departments, come together when it comes to the issue of fighting crime. However, the DPCI, of course, leads in that process. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 586
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. In regard to organised crime, my real concern is that when it comes to abalone poaching, it is seen as a Category B crime, yet it is directly linked to organised crime. Are we really concentrating on that, or is it staying as a Category B crime and we then have to list it as an issue in a particular area?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, mostly our experience is that the abalone poaching is organised crime and that is how we approach it. This is because, indeed, most such crime does not happen in an unorganised fashion; it is organised. Therefore the approach of the Hawks or the DPCI has always been that it is part of organised crime. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 586
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr R A LEES: Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. Hon Minister, you have informed the House that your department has sufficient resources to deal with organised crime. If that is the case, when then can we see a dramatic decrease and elimination of organised crime?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, I think you do give yourself time to follow up on the reports of crime statistics which we release every year. You can deduce the following from that. You will see that the decrease in crime in South Africa cuts across organised and unorganised crime. If you want further details of the statistics we can provide that.
In fact, in the last Budget Vote debate I went into detail explaining how the Hawks or the DPCI are succeeding in the fight against organised crime. Of course, it's a huge area. It is an area which needs an international approach. Our participation in Interpol, for instance, also aids in the fight against crime, particularly organised crime. As I have said, when it comes to statistics, we will be happy to share them with you. Thank you very much.
Mr R A LEES: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. Thank you to the Minister for that reply. Hon Minister, my question concerns the fact that you say that you have sufficient resources to deal with organised crime, but how then is your department dealing with the terrible scourge of rhino poaching, which is simply just getting totally out of hand? Is it perhaps not true, without wishing to contradict you, that the resources you require are not there and that you need more resources? And if you have sufficient resources, as you say, why is the poaching of rhinos not being brought under control?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Deputy Chairperson, I don't know whether the hon member wants us to go into each and every aspect of organised crime. You are taking just one out of hundreds of areas of organised crime. If you want statistics in the fight against crime and the conviction of people, we will provide you with that information.
I am saying to you that the fact that there has been a high awareness of, a lot of emphasis on and publicity of this particular type of organised crime does not necessarily mean that nothing is being done about it. I reiterate what I have said to you, that the fight against organised crime is continuing in the country.
I can enumerate to you where a lot has happened, as this is just one tiny aspect in the bigger scheme of organised crime. When we talk of organised crime, we don't confine it only to those criminal activities that happen within the borders of South Africa. It is transnational crime. There are a lot of crimes and that one in particular forms part of them.
Through you, Deputy Chair, I can say to you that if you want specifics on the matter, I can give you an example. Part of what people have raised with the rhino poaching is that the rhino tusks are sold mostly in East Asian countries. We have a programme where we have engaged with our counterparts in those parts of the world. So, if you want specific issues we will deal with them at any time.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, you must know that we have very limited time for follow-up questions, and it is not as if I am harsh or insensitive to people who want to pose questions. This will be the last one.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 586
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I would like to put a question to the Minister. He said that the police are quite capable of dealing with organised crime. What is his comment on the fact that according to reports we see that a large section of the police can't even pass the competency test to carry a firearm? What are your comments on that? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: It is an irrelevant question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Okay, Minister, can you not answer that one because it is a new question? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Unfortunately, I am not being harsh on you, but we have to follow principles here. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: And walk away as well.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No! No! No! No intimidation, please.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 23
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 587
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Question 22:
Question 23:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the staff compliment is 39 officials, consisting of 31 functional members and 8 Public Service Act members. Staff shortage is minimal – there are 39 staff members and the number of allocated posts is 41. This means that currently the unit is staffed at 95%.
In vehicle strength, the unit has 25 vehicles, which is more than the prescribed ratio of members per vehicle.
A consolidated budget for the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, for 2012-13, to fund the operational costs of the DPCI, will be adequate to cover operational expenses of all offices and units within the DPCI. An additional allocation from the National Treasury for the 2012-13 financial year is also expected to strengthen the operational capacity of all DPCI units, including Port Elizabeth. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 587
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister if the Commercial Crime Unit is going to be replaced by the DPCI in Port Elizabeth or if the Commercial Crime Unit will continue to exist. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the Commercial Crime Unit is part of the DPCI. There was no way that when we came up with the idea of forming the DPCI we would have left this very important, this crucial part out. By and large, crimes which the DPCI deal with are commercial. There are others which are not, but at the core, they are commercial crimes. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is that a further question or a new question?
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): All right.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. I'm highly delighted to hear that the Minister is going to continue with the Commercial Crime Unit. My problem is, however, that there are only two officials in that department of the Commercial Crime Unit who attend to municipal investigations, and that causes a very big delay. This is why I asked the question, to hear if perhaps in that regard you will through the DPCI increase the number of officials to investigate municipal crimes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, I am glad that the hon member is pleased. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 24
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 587
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 24:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the South African Police Service, SAPS, employees who are entitled to payment of salaries and allowances have been paid up to 29 February 2012. All correctly completed overtime claims which form a proper charge against state monies have been paid. Salary increases in the form of cost of living salary adjustments are paid across the board to all employees.
If there are for some reason officials who did not receive an increase, such exceptions are identified based on complaints received, as well as through system control processes in the form of exception, reporting and reconciliation. Such salary adjustments are effected programmatically, with defined approval processes being in place. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 25
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 588
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 25:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Deputy Chair, the answer to the next question, asked by the hon member Mofokeng, is yes, I have been informed, and last week I spoke about this issue in the National Assembly. I also issued a press statement on the matter.
To reiterate what I said in the National Assembly, the only leased premises from which the SA Police Service, SAPS, was evicted was the Erasmia police station. The reason for this eviction was the fact that the landlord, who is not black economic empowerment, BEE, compliant, was dissatisfied with the lease term of two years offered to him, and not because of nonpayment. The SAPS has never been evicted from its other leased premises for failure to pay rental timeously.
However, we have had lockouts. This was due to nonpayment by the Department of Public Works. I stated last week that whilst we are all aware of the problems in the Department of Public Works, this cannot absolve the management of the SA Police Service of their responsibility to effectively manage lease deals. The SAPS have acknowledged that they have not always informed the Department of Public Works timeously of lease expiries, and this must be addressed.
Over the last two months, I have been engaging with the SAPS management about how they manage their infrastructure, and I have instructed them that effective management of such infrastructure must become one of their priorities for this year. I expect to see a marked difference in how the SAPS manages this infrastructure over the next year, and I have informed management that I will hold them accountable for this. That will include both leased property and the building of new facilities, like police stations and others. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 26
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 588
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 26:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chair, on hon Mofokeng's question as to whether the SA Police Service has a comprehensive audit report of all premises leased, the answer is yes.
The SAPS conducted its own audit of all premises leased by the Department of Public Works on behalf of the SAPS, even though this is the mandate of the Department of Public Works, which is the custodian of, and thus responsible for, the leases of all government buildings.
The SAPS captures information regarding its leased buildings on the asset register of the SAPS. This information is physically verified against the Property Management Information System of the Department of Public Works. It is also verified against the lease contracts that have been received from the Department of Public Works. However, not all the lease contracts have been received from the Department of Public Works. Amendments and additions are effected on the asset register of the SAPS as and when the outstanding and any new lease agreements are received from the Department of Public Works. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE – Question 29
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 588
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 29:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chair, this is the question asked by the hon Ntwanambi, the Chief Whip of the Council, on whether the police will establish a temporary or permanent specialised unit that will focus on eliminating trafficking of young girls, particularly after what happened in KwaZulu-Natal.
The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, the DPCI, is responsible for the investigation of all cases of human trafficking. Provincial human trafficking co-ordinators have been appointed in all provinces. They are assisted by investigators in the organised crime investigating units, whose responsibility it is to investigate human trafficking cases. The DPCI also works in a collaborative investigative approach with the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units and other relevant stakeholders when dealing with such cases.
Yes, one girl has been reunited with her family.
The answer to the next question is also yes. The SA Police Service is following up on all these cases. The investigating officer has furnished details to the media for anyone with information and the families to come forward.
The matter is currently before the court for a formal bail application. The SAPS is opposing bail, and our assessment is that there is a strong case against the accused in this matter. The investigating officer is working closely with the National Prosecuting Authority on this matter.
The girls were lured to the brothel by their so-called boyfriends. It is alleged that the suspect used to pay R500 for each girl. The boyfriends invited these girls to Durban under the pretext of arranging jobs for them. Once they arrived in Durban, they were made to work as prostitutes. The girls were under constant threat and forced to use crack cocaine, and they were also forced to work for lengthy periods daily. They received an allowance of R25, whilst the suspect charged the clients R500. This modus operandi of luring young girls is commonly referred to as the "lover boy approach".
Some girls were homeless, and friends arranged accommodation at the lodge for them. After their staying a couple of days, the suspect would inform them that they needed to earn their keep by prostitution and selling drugs for them.
The girls came from various areas in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape but most of them are from the greater Durban area. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 588
The MINISTER OF POLICE
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, ...
IsiXhosa:
... ndiyabulela Mphathiswa ngezi nkcukacha.
English:
It also tells us parents ...
IsiXhosa:
... ngendlela esingakhathali ngayo. Owona mbuzo wam ngokuba, ingaba ikhona na into eza kwenziwa, ingakumbi ngumthetho, lisebe lakho namanye amasebe ukujongana nempilo yaba bantwana kuba kusenokwenzeka bafumane izifo abangazaziyo.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, Deputy Chair, as the hon Chief Whip can tell herself just by asking the question, this is a very serious matter. Perhaps that is the reason why, from the point of view of the SAPS, we decided to re-establish the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Unit, precisely to follow this up and ensure that there is a multidisciplinary approach in government on matters affecting particularly young girls, women and the elderly, because they are the targets of such heinous crimes.
We have always emphasised the point that there is no way that the police on their own will be able to go far in dealing with such crimes. With reference to the crime statistics that we released in September last year, we can see that the area of sexual offences, particularly rape, is an area in which we have not really made significant progress. It therefore remains a concern.
When we analyse this particular type of crime, we see that most of the people who are affected are acquaintances. That is why we emphasise the point that it is up to the police, members of society and other departments of government to ensure that we take this matter very seriously. Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 6 March 2012 Take: 588
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Deputy Chair, the Minister mentioned "boyfriends" who are responsible for this type of crime. Is any action being taken against those who are responsible for this, and how many of them are being followed up by the police? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, it is an ongoing process of investigation. These so-called "boyfriends" – and I would put it that way, that they are "so-called" – are really just kids, if you check the people that are involved there. Most of them are very young and under age. You really do not want to say that those who are called "boyfriends" are boyfriends in the true sense of the word. I want to refer to everybody who has been involved with the continuing investigation – as I said, the investigation continues. From the point of view of the police and the Prosecuting Authority, we are working together to ensure that those who have been apprehended in the process do not get bail, so that at the end of the day justice is meted out to these people. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Before we proceed, I would like to say something. We have just received correspondence from the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, asking if all the questions that were supposed to be answered today could stand over for the next session. Unfortunately, she is not available.
I would like to thank the Ministers very much for coming to the NCOP and answering the questions. We hope we are going to continue engaging around this in the future.
The Council adjourned at 16:18.
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