Hansard: Questions to the Deputy President, Kgalema Motlanthe
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Aug 2011
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 August 2011 Take: 462
WEDNESDAY, 24 AUGUST 2011
PRODEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 14:06.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
START OF DAY
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please note that notices of motion and motions without notice will be taken after the condolence motion.
MOTIONS
START OF DAY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I move that, notwithstanding Rule 29(8) and Rule 113(1), Questions not be given precedence today.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon members, I move that, notwithstanding Rule 110(2), which specifies that Questions to the Deputy President may not be scheduled for a question day that falls within a week in which the Deputy President is scheduled to answer questions in the Council, Questions to the Deputy President be taken today. I thank you.
Agreed to.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The Late Mr L J TOLO)
Mr T BOTHA: Hon Speaker, I move:
That the House–
(1) notes with profound sadness and a deep sense of personal loss the untimely death of the hon Bishop L J Tolo who was murdered at 02:00 on Monday, 22 August 2011, at his home in GaMasha Village at Ngoabe in Sekhukhune Land, where he was the Bishop of Bagaogelwa Apostolic Church from 1976 and President of the Limpopo Apostolic Council of Churches from 1991 to date;
(2) further notes that Bishop Tolo, who was born in 1948 and was active in politics from 1977, was a Member of Parliament since 1994; first as an ANC MP and then as a Cope MP since 2009;
(3) recognises that Bishop Tolo was a humble man with strong principles and a deep personal concern for those who were impoverished, sick and physically incapacitated, as witnessed in his determination to pursue relief from Cabinet Ministers for the people of Sekhukhune Land, who had a deep-rooted pride for the history of his people and his culture, as manifested in his abiding love of Sepedi, his mother tongue;
(4) believes that the murder of Bishop Tolo has taken a loving and caring family member;
(5) feels that the police must leave no stone unturned in tracking down the perpetrators of this heinous deed that has seen a committed South African becoming another casualty of violent crime and expose them to the full wrath of the law; and
(6) conveys its heartfelt condolences to the Tolo family, his grieving widow Salome, their four sons, three daughters and 10 grandchildren, and to his colleagues and friends across party political lines as well as the community of Sekhukhune Land, which he served with such devotion.
The SPEAKER: I wish to recognise and welcome the family of the late Bishop Tolo, in front us, led by his brother. You are welcome.
Mrs N F MATHIBELA
Mr T BOTHA
Mrs N F MATHIBELA: Hon Speaker, ...
Sepedi:
...ba gaTolo re re mahloko; mahloko a tšwang go ANC yeo e bego e le legae la Ntate Tolo.
English:
I got to know the late hon Tolo in the 1990s, when we were busy organising a sub-region in our region, which is today a region of Sekhukhune. It was then the eastern region of the Northern Transvaal, in the former Lebowa.
The late hon Bishop Jack Tolo was born on 21 November 1948, at Sekhukhune, GaMasha. He joined politics in 1968 and became a member of the ANC in 1977, and a Member of Parliament in 1994. Apart from his religious commitment as a Bishop of the Apostolic Church since 1976, the Late Bishop Tolo, a 63-year-old parliamentarian and church pastor was married to Salome Tolo, and they had seven children and 10 grandchildren. The hon Jack Tolo...
Sepedi:
... e be e le motho yo boleta, wa sega ka mehla, wa go loka le wa go hlompha bomme. Ka nako yeo re bego re dira makala, re tlo aga selete sa ka fase la selete sa bohlabela kua Sekhukhune, ke ile ka kgethiwa ka ba modulasetulo wa sona gomme Mme Salome Tolo, yo e bego e le mokgotse wa ka, a kgethiwa go ba moswaramatlotlo. Re bile bakgotsi, bašomimmogo re thekgilwe ke Mohu Ntate Tolo. Mohu Ntate Tolo e be e le ntate – ba a hlokwa bontate ba ba swanago le yena. Ka nako yeo, dinamelwa di be di hlokega. Mohu Ntate Tolo o be a dira gore Mme Salome o ba le senamelwa sa go re iša moo re tlabego re nyaka go ya gona ka nako tšohle.
Batho baCope le ba gaTolo, ga le a lahlegelwa le nnoši, le lahlegetšwe le ANC. Re lahlagetšwe ke Mohu Ntate Tolo ka gore o be a le ka go Cope, fela o be o ka seke ware ke leloko la Cope, e be o kare ke leloko la ANC ka gore ke mokgatlo wo o ilego wa mo ruta dipolotiki, wa mo ruta bophelo. O bile yena motho woo go fihla letšatši le a sepelago ka lona, a sa le motho yo a ratang batho.
English:
When I met the Tolo family in the 90s, the Late Mr Tolo and his wife were people who were very committed to the ANC. When our icon, Mr Nelson Mandela, was released from prison and came to visit Jane Furse, Ntate Tolo had a musical band, and we all matched together to go and fetch Tata and take him to the venue where he was supposed to address the people. As a man and a Christian, Ntate Tolo was God-gifted.
I am so shocked to hear that Ntate Tolo was robbed and killed now, when he was supposed to have been killed then when he had money, not today.
Sepedi:
Mohu Ntate Tolo o be a buša Ngoabe, GaMasha. Mabenkele a gagwe a be a le a lesomepedi kua Ngoabe.
English:
Ntate Tolo had a musical band, buses and almost everything that anybody could wish for. He was the first person to have a car there and his wife also had a car. He used to make sure that the wife's car was always full of petrol. Very few fathers and husbands are like him.
I remember Bishop Tolo as a very happy person, and he respected women. He used to say, "I respect women because women are the mothers who can look after the children even when we are not there."
He once related a story that he was working as a truck driver and when he came home he didn't have any money, but his wife took out money and gave it to him to go and buy a car. That is how he got his first car. It is very sad to have lost Bishop Tolo in this day and age.
I remember him as such a happy person with his happy family. He was not even lazy to cook. When we were organising, we would sometimes finish late, and since I stayed far and our transport was very poor, I used to sleep at his home. When we got there, we would find him cooking. He would dish up, call us, tell us to wash our hands and eat. How many fathers and husbands are doing that?
To the Tolo family, I remember Bishop Tolo as a happy person, always making jokes and being very supportive to women. He used to say, "I respect women more than myself."
I would like to say to his wife, children, family and friends may they find comfort in having known such a wonderful person. Although no words can really help to ease the loss you bear, just know that you are very close in every thought and prayer. May his soul rest in peace!
IsiZulu:
Sithi akwehlanga elungehli.
Sepedi:
Ba gaTolo mahloko, gomme ga a robale a khutšo!
Mr J SELFE
Mrs N F MATHIBELA
Mr J SELFE: Mr Speaker, it was my privilege to have known Jack Tolo since we became senators together in 1994. The Senate only consisted of 90 members and, because it was so small, its members got to know one another rather better than we in the National Assembly know one another. Over time, Bishop Tolo moved from being a political opponent to a respected colleague and then to a close friend.
Moruti, as we called him, was born and grew up in Sekhukhune, in Limpopo. His parents were very poor and he was forced to begin work, as an agricultural worker and then as a driver, when he was very young. He never lost his love of agriculture, for the people of his community, whom he served with such distinction, or his disgust at bad drivers. He constantly complained that young people got driving licences too easily, and that is the reason why there are so many accidents on the road.
He was a simple, straightforward person who knew what was right and what was wrong. He fought for what was right and was passionately opposed to what was wrong. That was what drew him into the struggle for democracy and justice in South Africa and into politics. Because of this passion, he wasn't a person who slavishly followed any particular party line. He was his own man, and he expressed to me his distaste for some political views, particularly for the views of the president of the ANC Youth League long before it became fashionable to do so.
He was also a person of profound faith. He was a Bishop in the Apostolic Church, and took his ecclesiastical responsibilities very seriously. He was an impressive preacher and used the skill with great effect at this podium, seldom with a single note, particularly when he was speaking about matters that he felt deeply about. He was also a genuine apostle and he was worried about my salvation and used to talk in that deep voice and say, "Selfe, you would never go to heaven if you don't go to church".
He and I and many other colleagues served together in the Select Committee on Security and Justice, in Senate, and later in the Portfolio Committees of Defence and Correctional Services. In fact, Bishop Tolo and I served continuously, since 1994, on the committee dealing with correctional services so long that we became known as Blou Batjies, the name that offenders give to habitual criminals.
His passion shone through in that committee as well. He believed in discipline, order and in paying one's debt to society. But, he also believed that each human soul is created in the image of God and that, therefore, human beings are redeemable and able to be rehabilitated. He was also very proud of this democratic Parliament that he had helped to create. Only last Thursday we were talking about the fact that there were now only 27 members of both Houses of Parliament who were Members of Parliament in 1994. Tragically, there are now only 26.
His death and the way he died is terrible. We speak often about crime in this House, but it is when a ghastly murder like this happens, that we again appreciate the reality faced by hundreds of thousands of victims of violent crime in this country. We trust that the perpetrators of this horrible crime will be arrested soon and face the full force of the law.
His death has robbed us all of a gentleman, a patriot, a priest, a parliamentarian and a leader. But, it has also robbed us of a great friend. We extend our heartfelt condolences to his wife Salome, his children and grandchildren, his congregants, his community and to his colleagues in Cope. The one consolation that we can all draw in this terrible time is that, whatever happens to my soul, I am absolutely certain that his is in heaven. Rest in peace my friend. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
Mr J SELFE
Mr V B NDLOVU: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the IFP, we want to register our shock, to hear that a Member of Parliament has been murdered in his home, and that nobody has been arrested as we speak. The IFP find it very strange that a Member of Parliament, who was a leader of people, was attacked and killed in his house for a few pieces of jewellery and just R7 000, in front of his family members, and nobody has been arrested as yet.
Mr Tolo was a kind man, beloved by everybody, very passionate about his people and the area where he came from, including his family. Therefore, a murder such as this one does not augur well for the security operators of this country, especially the Members of Parliament.
Bishop Tolo, was a great friend of mine. When I joined the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Service we became friends. When we went outside of Parliament with committees to do oversight work, we became even better friends and grew to understand each other better each day. It is very sad to hear that a person can lose his life the way that he lost his.
I want to extend our condolences to the family and friends, especially his wife, relatives and colleagues. We are making a request the police to make sure that they do everything in their power to arrest the perpetrators and ensure that those found are found guilty of this hideous crime and languish in jail - to honour a man as honourable as Bishop Tolo. Uhambe kakuhle Bishop. [Go well, Bisop]. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N M KGANYAGO
Mr V B NDLOVU
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Speaker and hon members, ...
Sepedi:
... monna wa lerato, monna wa botho, monna wa seriti, monna wa senatla, monna wa kwelobohloko; yoo ke Mna Tolo. Beke e fetilego o tlile go nna mola ke dulago gona, a ntshwara mo legetleng are Ntate Kganyago, ke swanetše go dira maano a go bitša kopano ya batho ba go tšwa Limpopo, gore ge go nale mathata re tsebišane.
English:
He said this because I had lost a son two weeks ago, and he did not know about it. When he came there, he came with a suggestion,to inform peoplewho are closer to one another when death strikes. He said that he would take it upon himself to call that meeting.I really don't know what is going to happen, because he is gone.
Sepedi:
Fela ke monna wa lerato.
English:
The UDM once more extends its deepest condolences to the family, friends and colleagues, on the tragic death of the late hon Jack Tolo.
Once again, crime has robbed us of a diligent and hardworking citizen. Government needs to intensify its efforts in fighting violent crime in South Africa, in order to prevent further unnecessary losses of life.
He succeeded in playing various parliamentary roles which came and went over a long career in politics. Underneath though, Bishop Jack Tolo was a community builder. He never hesitated to draw from his personal resources in order to help members of his community.
Sepedi:
Taba ya metsotso e mebedi e tlo mpolaya ka gore nka se kgone go bolela tše dingwe ka baka la nako ye.
Mna SPIKARA: Ke tla go fa metsotso e mengwe e mebedi.
English:
Like us, there will be many people who share in his family's grief during this time of bereavement. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. May his soul rest in peace.
Sepedi:
... fela pelo tša rena di kwele bohloko batho ba Modimo. A re tsebe gore na ro dula kae; ro dula ka gare ga melete re tšhaba dikelema goba re ye kae ka baka la gore le dintlong tša rena ga go sana mo re ka khutago gona, ba a go lalela; ba dira dilo tše kamoka ga tšona.
A re emeng ka maoto re nyake maano a go lwa le dilo tše. Dilo tše ke dinokwane, ga dia loka, di a re fetša. Ka bošigo ke nna, ka le lengwe letšatši e tla be e le wena. Ke a leboga. [Legoswi.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr N M KGANYAGO
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Speaker, personally, it is with real sadness that I express my condolences on the death of the hon Bishop Jack Tolo. The hon Tolo was a very special man, and we experienced it that way in this House.
He had a special love for his mother tongue, Sepedi. He was proud of his people's history and about their culture. We had long discussions, specifically on these issues, and the important role that one's mother tongue plays. We agreed on these issues, specifically on how important the mother tongue of everyone in South Africa is, for the dignity of everyone in our country.
Afrikaans:
Ek sal, daarom verder in Afrikaans praat en die agb Tolo sal dit juis baie goed verstaan en aanmoedig. Ons het baie keer ook so in Afrikaans met mekaar gepraat.
Ons, in die VF Plus, was sedert 1994 saam met hom hier in die Parlement en ons tel dan ook onder daardie 26 wat oorgebly het. Daarom het ons mekaar oor 'n lang tyd leer ken.
Hy was altyd vriendelik en aangenaam, maar mens moes dit nie met swakheid verwar het nie. Hy het nie gehuiwer om vir sy mense in Sekhukhune hier te veg en na hul beste belange om te sien, sover hy dit kon regkry nie.
Ek het hom by Binndelandse Sake en by Landbou, wat vir hom belangrik was, leer ken, waar hy altyd belangrike bydraes op 'n aangename manier gemaak het. As 'n Cope stigterslid het ons hom bewonder vir die moed om volgens sy oortuigings op te tree in daardie moeilike tyd in 2009, net voor die verkiesing.
Ons wil van die VF Plus se kant af die hoop uitspreek dat die misdadigers deur die polisie gevang sal word, sodat ons die volle waarheid oor sy onnatuurlike dood sal kan vasstel.
Ek is dankbaar dat sy familie hier teenwoordig is om ook die hulde te kan hoor wat ons, wat hom hier leer ken het, bring. Ek dra graag die simpatie van die VF Plus, maar ook van die hele Huis oor aan sy vrou, Salome, en aan sy kinders en kleinkinders. Waar Biskop Tolo as 'n Christen aktief in sy kerk betrokke was as 'n oortuigde gelowige, bid as ons mede Christene vir troos vir sy vrou en kinders. Ek dank u.
Mrs C DUDLEY
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, hon Speaker. The ACDP learned with shock and sadness of the death of Bishop Tolo, as he was affectionately known. He died in an attack by armed robbers on his home and family, in the early hours of Monday morning, in Polokwane.
The 63-year-old parliamentarian, who was also a pastor, served in the leadership of the Apostolic Church since the 1970s. He was in the process of building a church for his congregants, which was also to be used as a community hall by villagers.
Hon Tolo, who represented a rural, Limpopo constituency, and, over time, served on various committees, including Arts and Culture, Agriculture and Land Affairs, Defence, and Correctional Services, was diligent in every way and was always on top of the issues. He was known as a generous man and is remembered for building houses for poor families in GaMasha village, outside Sekhukhune, in Limpopo.
The ACDP shares the distress of his family, friends and colleagues in the party, on this untimely loss of life. We extend sincere condolences to his wife Salome, their seven children and 10 grandchildren, their extended family, friends and congregants, his colleagues in Cope and the members of this House, who have known him for many years. Thank you.
Ms I C DITSHETELO
Mrs C DUDLEY
Setswana:
Moh I C DITSHETELO: Ke a leboga Mmusakgotla. Rona re le batho ba UCDP, dipelo tsa rona di gamuketse botlhoko ka rre Tolo. Rre Tolo o ne a re makatsa, re na le kgwedi fela re le fano, re sa itse ope fano, ka bona a tsena kwa go rona. Fa a tsena ga a ise a ke a dumedise, o tsene fela a bo a re a re wa bona wena kgaitsadio ke sebare sa ka. Jaanong ke ipotsa gore ntate yo ke mang, a bo a ipolela a re nna ke Tolo ke Leloko la Palamente. E le motho yo o nang le botho a re bolelela gore o itse mapalamente a rona.
Go tloga foo, rre Tolo ya nna tsala ya batho ba UCDP. Re maketse thata fa re tla go utlwa go twe rre Tolo o tsamaile. Fa re fetsa moo ka boela gae mme ka bolela gore go na le ntate yo mongwe yo o neng a tla kwa go rona a re bolelela gore o a le itse. E rile ke ise ke bue leina la gagwe rre wa ka a re o raya rre Tolo.
English:
That is a very good man and he is polished.
Setswana:
Re utlwile borra Tolo gore re kgaogane le tsala ya rona. Go le gantsi fa re le mo dipolotiking ga re tshwaragane ka matsogo fela se se diragatseng gompieno se tshwanetse se re kopanye bagaetsho. Ke nnete ntate yo o phetse le rona jalo ka nako tsotlhe. Ka nako tsotlhe o ne a re botsa gore le kwa kae maUCDP mme le dira eng. Tsogang! ntwa e teng. Jaanong ke ka moo ke reng ...
English:
... may you find solace and comfort in the legacy he left, his commitment and willingness to serve his country and his firm stand on issues he believed. May his soul rest in peace.
Setswana:
Kgotsofalang bagaetsho. A ntho ya lona e fole. Pelo tsa lona ga di utlwile botlhoko di tshwana fela le tsa rona. Ke a leboga.[Legofi.]
Mr R B BHOOLA
Mrs I C DETSHETELO
Mr R B BHOOLA: Mr Speaker, there are many sorrows in life. One of the greatest sorrows that no one would like to experience, is undoubtedly that of death. On behalf of the MF, I bring heartfelt condolences and messages of strength, courage and fortitude to the families, friends and relatives of the late Bishop Tolo for their loss.
Our condolences also go out to Cope, for the loss of an impeccable dynamic leader, a true servant of the Lord and a true citizen of humanity. It is quite correctly said that true leaders are those who add value to the society. With his warm and caring personality, the late Bishop always showed compassion for the poor and destitute with great humility.
Today I am reminded by the profound words of Madiba, when he said, and I quote:
There must be peace for all. You must not be afraid to say what you want to say today. People might dislike what you say today, but will remember what you say tomorrow today.
This is precisely the kind of personality the late Tolo was. He wanted peace for all. He ensured that the word of the Lord was upheld so that one's strength could be renewed. He went the extra mile to serve his people. He had the knowledge, experience and the skill to preside over challenging issues.
He served his organisation, Cope, with honesty, integrity and hard work. He played an integral role in bringing about peace and stability amongst his members and organisation. Many who endured hardship had benefitted from the generosity of the late Bishop Tolo, who you have heard, built houses for the needy and destitute with his own money. What an amazing characteristic.
The late Bishop Tolo will undoubtedly be sadly missed by all those who loved him so dearly. Mrs Tolo, because of your strength and support, you have delivered the late Bishop to be an astounding, remarkable and dignified leader. God bless you and give you the strength to deal with your irreplaceable loss. May peace be upon him through the grace of God Almighty. May his soul rest in peace in the high heavens. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr K J DIKOBO
Mr R B BHOOLA
Sepedi:
Mna K J DIKOBO: Mohl Seboledi, mohl Motlatša Mopresidente, bahlomphegi Ditona le Batlatša Tona, maloko ao a hlomphegago a Ngwako, ba lapa la Mopišopo Tolo, re ile ra tšhoga le go se dumele ge re ekwa ka leho la modirišani ka rena, Mopišopo Tolo. Go se dumele ga rena go tlišwa ke gore re be re na le yena bekeng ya go feta, re tšeere mehlamo gape re sega. Ke ka fao re rilego go kwa taba ye ya ba eke go tla tla lentšu le lengwe ka morago la gore, "Ga go bjalo. Re be re sa kwa gabotse."
Leho la Mopišopo Tolo ke tahlegelo go ba lapa le meloko, Bagaugelwa Apostolic Church, profense ya gešo ya Limpopo, mokgatlo wa Cope le naga ya Afrika-Borwa ka bophara. Re lahlegetšwe ke monna wa lerato; monna wa sefahlego sa go dula se edile; monna wa go se fele pelo.
Mohl Mopišopo Tolo e be e le motho wa maele; motho wa go dula a hlohleletša batho gore ba dire gabotse. Go fihleng ga ka Palamenteng ngwageng wa go feta, Mopišopo Tolo e bile yo mongwe wa batho bao ke ilego ka ithekga ka bona. Ke be ke fela ke re mo ke gakanegilego gona ke botšiše gore naa mo go tle go dirwe bjang. O be a nkamogela ka lethabo gape a fela a ntebogiša a re, "O a bona Dikobo, o boletše gabotse lehono. Ga ke go reke sefahlego."
Re lahlegetšwe ke senatla; mogale wa bagale. Mokgapa wo mogolo o wele, dithaga di lla mašogošogo. Re re go ba lapa, homotšegang. A re se ke ra dumela mokgwa wo Mopišopo Tolo a hlokofetšego ka wona o re šira ra se bone lerato la Modimo le ditšhegofatšo tšeo re bilego le tšona ka lebaka la bophelo bja papa Tolo. Ee, re gobetše. Efela a re kweng taletšo ya Modimo ge a re go rena, "Etlang go nna bohle bao le imetšwego le bao le lapišitšwego, nna ke tla le khutšiša." O re: "Ithwešeng joko ya ka ka gore yona e bobebe."
Legatong la Azapo, ke re mahloko go ba lapa le metswalle, ba kereke le ba mokgatlo wa Cope. Re re eke moya wa gagwe o ka robala ka khutšo. Ke a leboga. [Legofsi.]
Mr T BOTHA
Mr K J DIKOBO
Mr T BOTHA: Hon Speaker, Tata Tolo was an upright man who practised genuine humility and who carried himself with courteous dignity. His spiritual belief shaped the course of his life. It is no wonder then that the lifelong activism in him drew strength whenever he was faced with adversity. I refer to the biblical quotation, "If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31.
All of us who knew him well will know how very fond he was of this quotation. Bishop Tolo was a dedicated churchman, a respected community leader, an enterprising businessperson and a diligent Member of Parliament who pursued social justice for his people without letting up. He took his duties very seriously and he administered pastoral care with passion and a deep sense of humility.
Bishop Tolo was a man in the Walter Sisulu mould. He never sought publicity and yet, among his peers, he was the moral rock that people could depend on. Everyone, of us will also remember that whenever he addressed this House, he preferred to speak in his native Sepedi because he valued culture and tradition very highly.
He was close to King Sekhukhune and the tribal elders. The Sowetan observed that he was a man "rooted in community". Indeed, he never left his home village of GaMasha in the Sekhukhune area. Today we hear of some of the good work he undertook of which we had no knowledge. At his expense, he renovated the GaMasha tribal office, and added three classrooms to the Masha tribal school.
Four families were the recipients of houses he built for them because he was so moved by the circumstances of their lives. At the GaMasha clinic, he built a three-roomed attachment so that pregnant women no longer needed to give birth out in the open. He helped to fence the cemetery and build a toilet in the cemetery complex.
Bishop Tolo generously bore catering expenses when community meetings were held, at every turn he used his influence and resources to bring relief to the people around him. When Madiba visited the Sekhukhune area before the 1994 elections, Bishop Tolo was called up onto the stage and publicly acknowledged by the father of our democracy for his long and distinguished service to the community.
Bishop Tolo was a man of peace and we who knew him well are deeply anguished at the violent nature of his death. We are also immensely saddened by the trauma that his wife Salome and the family experienced on that sad and tragic morning when he was snatched away from all of us.
His strength of character, his humour, his moral rectitude and his unflinching adherence to the truth was what fortified all of us. If politics is served by people of his quality and integrity, no one will ever have any criticism of politicians ever again. This is the challenge he leaves us and the challenge the country wants to see us rise to. Our deepest condolences to his wife, sons, daughters and the entire family!
Sepedi:
Robala gabotse, sebata; moetapele wa batho ba Afrika-Borwa.
English:
Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I take it that there are no objections to the adoption of the motion by the House. Will members please rise to observe a moment of silence in memory of the late, Bishop Tolo.
Please be seated. The condolences of the House will be conveyed to the Tolo family. I thank you.
Debate concluded.
Motion agreed to. Members standing.
NOTICES OF MOTION
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
Mr G BOINAMO: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the plight of ex-mineworkers and come up with solutions to deal with the long-standing problems faced by this group of South Africans.
Mr S E KHOLWANE
Mr G BOINAMO
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next day sitting of this House I shall move:
That the House debates the accountability and transformation of the media in general and print media in particular.
Mrs G M BORMAN
Mr S E KHOLWANE
Mrs G M BORMAN: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates plans to overcome the challenges in delivering water and sanitation to meet the targets set for 2014.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mrs G M BORMAN
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the poor state of enforcement of traffic laws and regulations by traffic authorities, particularly with regard to public taxis transport services.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the increase of cable theft and the impact it has on public transport.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN
Mrs M S F DE FREITAS: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the old Durban Airport and a possible solution for its future use.
Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates South Africa's readiness to deal with natural disasters.
Mr Z S MAKHUBELA
Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI
Mr Z S MAKHUBELA: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the House debates how to develop and create more internships and learnerships for our youth, to give them the skills and experience needed to compete successfully in the job market.
Mr N D DU TOIT
Mr Z S MAKHUBELA
Mr N D DU TOIT: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the ongoing poaching of South Africa's abalone resources;
(2) further debates the possible links of this criminal activity to the drug trade; and
(3) comes up with possible solutions to curb poaching and further protect the resource.
Ms S P KOPANE
Mr N D DU TOIT
Ms S P KOPANE: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the state of the Child Protection Register; and
(2) comes up with a solution to rapidly improve the use of this register, in order to ensure the protection of our children in South Africa.
Mr G R MORGAN
Ms S P KOPANE
Mr G R MORGAN: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the effectiveness and appropriateness of the commercialisation strategy of SA National Parks, SANParks, ten years after it was established; and
(2) comes up with solutions to improve funding for SANParks while ensuring that conservation is enhanced.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
NOTICES OF MOTION
PRESIDENT ZUMA ELECTION TO LEAD SADC TROIKA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker and hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that President Jacob Zuma was elected to take over the chairmanship of theSouthern African Development Community, SADC, organ on politics, defence and security troika, from Zambian President, Rupiah Banda, when the regional leaders met on Wednesday, 18 August 2011, during a two-day summit in Angola;
(2) believes that this gesture is in recognition of the sterling role the President is playing in Africa in creating conditions for peace, stability and good neighbourliness; and
(3) wishes the President success in his new role.
Thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SPRINGBOKS TO PARTICIPATE IN 2011 RUGBY WORLD CUP
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes the announcement of the 30-man Springbok squad to travel to New Zealand in September to compete in the 2011 Rugby World Cup;
(2) further notes that this announcement follows the Springboks' 18-5 win over arch rivals New Zealand on Saturday in their final Tri Nations clash at the Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium in Port Elizabeth;
(3) recognises that this victory gave the Springboks the much needed confidence and momentum to take the team into the International Rugby Board, IRB, Rugby World Cup that starts in New Zealand on 10 September 2011;
(4) acknowledges that 18 members of South Africa's triumphant 2007 Rugby World Cup winning squad were included in the 2011 group;
(5) further acknowledges that the Springboks, having previously won the prestigious tournament in 1995 and 2007, head to New Zealand to try and become the first nation to win back-to-back World Cup titles; and
(6) congratulates the individual members of the squad and wishes the touring party together with the coaching staff the best of luck as they aim to once again win the tournament.
I thank you.
Agreed to.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
TRAGIC DEATH OF SCHOOL CHILDREN IN KNYSNA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes with great sorrow the reported deaths of school children in Knysna, when their school bus plunged into a river early this morning;
(2) further notes that it is reported that the surviving children suffered serious trauma and injury;
(3) extends its heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of the deceased and expresses its concern for the injured children; and
(4) mourns this tragic loss of life with the rest of the country.
Thank you.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
2011 SOUTH AFRICAN SPORTS AWARDS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that the South African Sports Awards took place on 21 August 2011;
(2) further notes that the awards, have been created to recognise and honour individuals and teams who have excelled both on and off the field, from 1 November 2009 to 30 April 2011 period; and
(3) congratulates all the recipients who received awards in their respective categories.
Agreed to.
Mrs S V KALYN (DA)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SOUTH AFRICAN ULTRA-RUNNER RYAN SANDES WINS
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs S V KALYAN (DA): Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1)notes that on Saturday, South African ultra-runner Ryan Sandes won the 2011 Leadville Trail 100 Mile Run in Colorado, USA, in a time of 16:46:56;
(2)further notes that this gruelling ultra marathon, which Sandes won in the third best time in history, is competed at an altitude of between 9 000 and 12 000 feet above sea level;
(3)acknowledges that, in December, Sandes became the first competitor to win each event in the world-renowned Four Deserts Self-supported Foot Race, a series of races run across the Atacama, Gobi, Sahara and Antarctic deserts; and
(4)congratulates Sandes on his achievement and wishes him success with his future career.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mrs S V KALYAN
CONGRATULATIONS TO BANYANA BANYANA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1)notes that on Saturday, 20 August 2011, Banyana Banyana defeated Mozambique 5-0 in an international friendly played at the Lucas "Masterpieces" Moripe Stadium, in Atteridgeville, Tshwane;
(2)further notes that the win took Banyana Banyana's 2011 statistics to 11 wins from 13 matches under the guidance of the national coach, Joseph Mkhonza;
(3)congratulates Banyana Banyana on their convincing victory; and
(4)wishes them success in their coming match against Ethiopia in an Olympic qualifier first leg encounter at the Orlando Stadium in Soweto on Saturday.
Agreed to.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to recognise a visiting delegation from Vietnam, the Vietnamese parliament in the gallery. A warm welcome to you all. [Applause.] Thank you very much.
The next item on the Order Paper is questions addressed to the Deputy President. Again members may press the "talk button" on their desks, if they wish to ask supplementary questions. The first question is asked by hon Mr N Singh.
QUESTIONS – DEPUTY PRESIDENT
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and hon members, during the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, meeting on 12 August this year, we announced that people who are infected with HIV and have a Cluster of Differentiation 4, CD4, cell count of 350 or less will be eligible for antiretroviral treatment.
In essence this means that more people will now be treated earlier thus decreasing their chances of infecting others. They will also benefit by staying healthier for longer. This will eventually contribute to increased life expectancy which to date has declined due to HIV and related illnesses. The Department of Health has worked closely with the National Treasury, the World Health Organisation, United Nations Aids, Unaids, and experts to conduct analysis and forecasts on the financial implications of the proposed programme.
A well-calculated cost has been developed, which allowed government to include some of the projected costs in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. Consequently, resources have already been made available in the Department of Health budget to cover some of the costs of the programme.
We have received additional funding from the President's Emergency Plan for Aids Relief and Sanac successfully submitted a proposal to the Global Fund requesting a significant amount of resources to fund the purchase of antiretroviral drugs. An additional amount of R244 million will be provided through the national Department of Health to procure the additional commodities required.
Minister of Health and Minister of Finance have also successfully obtained a 53% reduction in the costs of antiretrovirals, ARVs, through a concerted effort and robust engagement with the pharmaceutical industry. This saved government R4,7 billion which makes it possible to treat more people.
These initiatives as well as ongoing efforts to maximise efficiencies will enable the costs of the expanded programme to be covered, at least in the short-term to medium-term.
Hon members, the national and provincial departments of health have existing systems to monitor their HIV/Aids and TB programmes and these systems are being strengthened.
A three-tier monitoring system is now being implemented which consists of paper-based monitoring, electronic monitoring and, more importantly, a system linking all provinces. In this regard, I can assure this House that patient confidentiality will not be compromised during the use of these systems.
As for the implementation of the expanded programme, the new guideline is effective immediately as of this month and full details of this programme are already in the public domain. Government will continue to interact with the public, stakeholders and practitioners in the field to ensure that relevant details are known to all.
I believe that, through our combined efforts and by working together, we can defeat the scourge of HIV and Aids. I thank you for your attention.
The SPEAKER: Hon members on my right, please allow the Deputy President to be heard. You are drowning him with your voices.
Mr N SINGH
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr N SINGH: Mr Speaker, thank you, and thank you, hon Deputy President, for the response and the initiatives that are being taken. As the IFP, we welcome this announcement, but yet I think there are unintended consequences that may arise.
We can put in more money and more tablets to protect the vulnerable, but we find reports such as:
When thieves broke into Nonhlahla's home they took her most valuable possessions, her antiretrovirals, which in urban legend are key ingredients in an narcotic called "whoonga".
Mr Deputy President we know that it is a myth that ARVs are used to produce "whoonga", but yet drug dealers continue to perpetuate this myth and vulnerable people are being robbed. Criminals attack people who go to clinics to collect "whoonga". There have been serial murders in KwaZulu-Natal where people have been killed for ARVs. I would like to know, amongst other things, what would government do to ensure that these people who deserve the treatment are actually protected from these criminals and drug lords? [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, thank you very much, Mr Singh. Clearly, this is an act of criminality and the law enforcement units have to protect all citizens and not only those who are or may be in possession of ARVs. That's what we should do as communities and as government to ensure that law enforcement units in this country do away with such elements in our midst and the correctional services correct them forever. Thank you.
Mr P F SMITH
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr P F SMITH: Speaker, I would like to switch the question from treatment to prevention, if I may. Members would know that South Africa is, in fact, on the forefront of HIV prevention research. The Centre for the Aids Programme of Research in South Africa, Caprisa , 2004 study released last year was really internationally acclaimed. It is really important research.
Speaker, there is an agreement that we need to fast-track the results of that research because it is so important. The 2004 study was funded by the Americans and partly by the South Africans. The Caprisa 2008 confirmatory study needs to go ahead now.
The Americans have put their money on the line and we haven't. The project is stalled because there is no money. Chairperson, we are in Women's Month and it is a prevention that empowers women and prevents deaths amongst potentially huge numbers of woman. Mr Speaker, the question that I put to the Deputy President is, why are we being so tardy as a country in funding this programme? If the Deputy President doesn't have the answer now, could he, perhaps, undertake to investigate the matter and revert to us with an answer? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, thank you, Mr Smith. Hon members, I do not have the answer right now, but I undertake to investigate and revert back to you in writing. Thank you.
Mr M WATERS
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, thank you Deputy President for your response. The DA welcomes the continuing expansion of the ARV treatment programme. Deputy President, the recent study by the HIV Prevention Trials Network has revealed that by initiating treatment for HIV positive people it reduces by 96% the risks of transmission to their partners.
Women in South Africa bear the brunt of the HIV/Aids pandemic which is exacerbated by patriarchal society where many men do not believe in protective sex. Given that, Sanac is currently developing its 2012 to 2016 national strategic plan conducted in conjunction with the Department of Health and the Department of Finance. This will assist to determine what it would cost if we were to provide every HIV infected person with ARVs in our country and the future savings through reduced infections that that would bring as well as health costs. Deputy President, if you have not done so, would you give this House the assurance that you would do? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, thank you very much Mr Waters. We haven't done that kind of a study yet. At the moment, as I said, we will only be able to announce the extension of treatment to those with a CD4 count of 350 by 12 August this year. That was based on a costing exercise conducted by the Ministry of Health and National Treasury. We haven't gone that far. That is the step that, I suppose, we'll have to take in the near future.
Our effort is really also aimed at ensuring that we reduce new infections through spreading the word and ensuring that we prevent new infections and place more people on treatment - if that is outstripped by the rate of new infections, it means that we are not wining the battle. That is what is preoccupying Sanac at this point in time. Thank you.
QUESTION 6
QUESTION 5
Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and hon members, Prof Turok, yes, I am aware of the High Level Forum on Aid Effectiveness. Invitations were extended to government by the Embassy of the Republic of Korea in Pretoria in June this year.
As members may be aware, the Africa Platform for Development Effectiveness, APDev, was officially launched during the African Union Economic Commission for Africa Joint Annual Meetings of Conference of African Ministers of Finance, Planning and Economic Development in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, on 27 March this year.
Though the Minister of Finance was unable to attend the launch, in his response to the invitation, he expressed the South African government's support for multistakeholder dialogues that promotes a unified message for Africa to grow out of aid, enhance domestic resource mobilisation, deepen ownership and promote South-South co-operation.
Government intends to inform the public of its support for this initiative through the communication channels that are managed by the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS. The South African government will be represented in Busan by a high-level delegation. Furthermore, the invitation from the Korean Embassy also requests that Members of Parliament and representatives from civil society be included in the South African delegation.
The SPEAKER: Before I give the floor to the hon Turok to ask a supplementary question, I want to give an opportunity to Dr Goqwana to ask a question; we inadvertently skipped him.
Mr M B GOQWANA
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Dr M B GOQWANA: Mr Speaker, I thank the Deputy President; even for the decision that was made. I guess if this was done a year ago, we would have been very worried about the fact that there are inequities in health. However, because the Department of Health has started re-engineering primary healthcare, which is a precursor to universal coverage, we tend to think that this is going to be able to reach everybody and, obviously, have the intended consequence of making sure that everybody gets antiretrovirals.
I guess this is not a question, but a comment. We are very happy that this has been started at a time of universal discussion of universal coverage.
Prof B TUROK
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Prof B TUROK: Mr Speaker, Deputy President, I am delighted to hear your response. I was present at the launch of the APDev and was very moved by that occasion. I should say that it has taken considerable effort by four of the most important organisations in Africa - the African Development Bank, the African Union, New Partnership for Africa's Development, Nepad, and the Economic Commission for Africa - to inform the donor countries that Africa's poverty cannot be overcome by aid alone.
Instead, aid can only be a catalyst in home-grown development right across the continent. My question, therefore, is: How can this House best show its political support for the new pan-African approach to donor aid? Can you help us on that?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think hon Turok is a true professor; he knows the answer, but he is asking me the question. [Laughter.] As I said, the invitation requests of the South African government, should include in the delegation Members of this Parliament.
Therefore, I would imagine that in preparing for participation in Busan, the members will have to ponder the question of how best to strengthen intra-Africa trade, beginning with the regional trade within Southern African Development Community, SADC, itself and also to address the challenge. Aid, as we know, only freezes poverty and dependence. It is, therefore, advisable to explore ways of moving away from dependence on aid.
I don't have a magic formula for that other than that we should use our challenges of social and economic backlogs in South Africa, as well as the rest of the African continent, to create stronger intra-African trade. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, on a point of order: We are battling to hear; the microphone seems to be turn down very low. It's very difficult to hear what's being said.
The SPEAKER: Would somebody just check the microphone and would everybody speak into their microphones.
Mr M B SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 24 August 2011 Take: 472
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M B SKOSANA: Mr Speaker and Deputy President, in view of the subsection 3, 4 and 5 of question 6 - in case that the Deputy President answers in the positive, which he did, bearing in mind that aid and the factors that hamper its effectiveness or the passage of that, such as factionalism, armed conflicts, warlordism, corruption, small arms proliferation, bad leadership, lack of co-ordination, are the permanent features of this edifice - should the government not contemplate establishment a permanent and inclusive aid commission or structure or organ, which will deal with aid internationally and nationally?
The SPEAKER: The volume has been turned up. If it's still not audible, you can use the earpieces.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon Skosana and hon members, I am sure that, once there are concrete proposals for government to consider, government will no doubt do so. However, at this point in time, the issue, really, is how to ensure that requisite aid is made available without becoming too dependant on it. As the professor said earlier on, we need to explore and move away from reliance on aid. That's what the AU, the African Development Bank, ADB, as well as the Commission for Africa are considering at this point in time.
Mr K S MUBU
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr K S MUBU: Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy President, In your view, how does the African Platform for Development Effectiveness, APDev, enhance or benefit or, in fact, dovetail with the initiatives that the SADC is currently undertaking for the region, in particular, and for the continent or is this another duplication of effort by different organisations? However, it is also well-known that donor aid has been used corruptly in some countries. Are there measures that the AU has put in place to counter this? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the African Platform for Development Effectiveness consists of the ADB, Economic Commission for Africa, and was initiated by Ministers of Finance Planning and Economic Development in Africa, because they realised that African countries who depended mainly – even for their national budgets – on aid will forever be in that position of weakness, despite all the natural resources in Africa.
Therefore, this platform is meant for them to compare notes and share perspectives on the effectiveness of the development plans on the continent; that's really the purpose. The Busan conference will be the second such conference that they participate in. Therefore, it's, really, early days; it's not clear yet as to how effective the platform will be. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Nyamie Booi, the person seated next to you really wants to listen to the Deputy President; you are really interfering with his right to listen. [Interjections.]
Mrs C DUDLEY
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, hon Deputy President, in demonstrating support for APDev, what progress, if any, has there been in the development of a database on regional and international commitments in aid effectiveness, South-South co-operation and capacity development for regular updating to facilitate follow-ups? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Dudley, as I said, these are early days. I am not aware that there is any data that has been developed because our Minister of Finance missed the first meeting. He is most likely to attend the second meeting. Thank you.
QUESTION 7
QUESTION 6
Question 7:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, the government of South Africa has said repeatedly that hostilities in Libya need to end, including the bombing by Nato. President Zuma had made this point very clearly in his engagements with Prime Minister Cameron of Britain who recently visited our country; to President Medvedev of Russia, as well as to the Nato secretary-general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, when he attended a special meeting in Russia recently.
The President as well as the Minister and Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation have consistently spoken out against Nato's violation of the mandate of UN Security Council Resolution 1973 in seeking regime change and the resultant loss of civilian lives as it continues its bombing campaign of Tripoli.
The South African government has been clear in all engagements on the matter of Libya that it is against regime change and will continue to raise this issue in an attempt to prevent further loss of civilian lives and in seeking the adoption and implementation of the African Union Roadmap by all parties involved in the Libyan conflict.
Hon member, the AU has made it very clear that the Libyan people must determine their own future through an inclusive process that will ensure a full democratisation of all political institutions. This will allow for macroeconomic recovery and the restoration of normality in Libyan society.
As hon Meshoe is aware, it is our collective view as leaders in Africa that no illegal removal of a government can be justified, not least through violent means. I thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, apologies from Rev Meshoe, he has asked me to follow up on his behalf. Thank you for the information. It is also our understanding that government is now reluctant to recognise the National Transitional Council. In this regard, South Africa's offer to help Libya draft its new constitution, to whom would that offer have been made given government's reluctance in this area?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the formal recognition of the Transitional Council, hon Dudley, must be seen as a separate matter from the obligation and duty of contributing towards an all-inclusive process involving all Libyans in finding a peaceful and democratic way of moving forward from this current conflict-ridden situation.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, within the context of the current situation in Libya, the big question would be: what is the position of South Africa with regard to continuing advocating democracy and human rights within Libya; especially ingratiating itself with the Libyans, that is now the general citizenry of Libya so that we continue to occupy the space? What is the position of South Africa on that, in the language that is understood by the Libyan people?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, thank you, hon Ngonyama. The position of the South African government is in line with that of the AU. The AU roadmap is the only honourable roadmap that would lead to peace, stability and democratisation of all institutions in Libya. Of course, we continue to be in a position to speak to both the people in Benghazi and Tripoli. Because the people of Libya, as a people, deserve all the support they can muster and the South African government is willing to play its role in that regard. Thank you.
Mr M B SKOSANA
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M B SKOSANA: Mr Speaker, it is widely agued, Deputy President, that the International Criminal Court intends charging Col Gaddafi and his associates for crimes against his own people; and possibly charge the rebel contingent for possible violation of human rights. Therefore, in the light of those who perished as a result of the bombings by Nato, who is going to be lawfully held accountable for those atrocities? I know that the Deputy President might simply have a view and not an answer.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much for that view on the view of the Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, my tuppens worth of view on this matter is that indeed the UN Security Council Resolution, which was aimed at protecting civilians, initially from bombings by the government of Col Muammar Gaddafi, was in a sense overstretched by Nato forces. That in itself creates a problem for the UN Security Council and for future interventions. As you are well-aware, the situation in Syria is also of grave concern precisely because of this precedent created in Libya.
The UN Security Council has not been able to agree on how to intervene in Syria. As you know that in the Security Council there are permanent member states with veto power. So, if they don't want any resolution to see the light of day they veto it. In Libya, those who did not vote for Resolution 1973 abstained, which allowed the Resolution to go through. But because of this precedence it has created very serious doubts in the permanent members of the UN Security Council.
Therefore, if the International Criminal Court, ICC, is to act on the basis of concrete information against those who would have been responsible for loss of lives of civilians, it would be very difficult for Nato to justify why and how it came to any conclusion.
We know that they are now attempting to create the impression that the rebels are acting on their own regarding attacks in Tripoli, but there are clear links and co-ordination at that level. The question is whether the ICC would have the wherewithal to unearth that information and bring those who are responsible to book, including the Nato commanders on the ground.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, for the ANC, in pursuance of promoting democratic peace, we must all accept that democracies do not go to war with one another even where democracy does not exist but continue to push for the dominant mode of the South African view, and that of a negotiated solution for an inclusive governments; even as the Minister of International Relations has said, "When the visitors leave Libya, the Africans will remain dealing with the African problems". What are the challenges, Deputy President, with the implementation of the postconflict strategy, as there will be no successful peacebuilding without socioeconomic or political stability?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, well, the difficulty really with the current Libyan situation is that nobody knows who these rebels are. They are a potpourri of ethnic groupings because the Libyan situation was very unfortunate in the sense that brother leader, Col Muammar Gaddafi, presided over that country with a small group of military generals – about 11 of them - over all these years. I think five years ago, he even reduced that number to six. So his cabinet, so to speak, consisted of only six members. And the institutions were really tribal institutions.
The only advantage is that at least they were able to invest in the education of their citizens. So, there are so many highly educated people in Libya because the state covered the studies of their citizens up to PhD level. Hopefully, because they are educated, one would assume that they are cultured and would see value in dialogue and in finding an inclusive solution. Otherwise, it is really an ethnic community.
That is why, when the Gaddafi government started bombing Benghazi, the soldiers who were - even generals - in that army who came from those tribes of Benghazi left the army, because their own tribe's men and children were being bombed and they went back home. Essentially, they need to establish almost from scratch the institutions of democracy. And that is why we believe they need all the assistance they can receive in that direction.
QUESTION 8
QUESTION7
Question 8:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Mokgalapa, the South African Government has responded to the humanitarian crisis confronting Somalia by raising R8 million towards the famine relief programme, R4 million of which was donated to the Gift of the Givers towards the transportation and logistical costs of delivering aid to Somalia.
Furthermore, and in line with South Africa's foreign policy objective of the consolidation of the African Agenda, the South African government, in partnership with Brand South Africa, has teamed up with the Gift of the Givers, and launched the Somalia Relief Campaign to raise public awareness of the dire situation in Somalia and to galvanise South Africans to make donations for relief efforts in that East-African country.
The South African Government also provided transport in the form of a South African National Defence Force C130 Hercules supply plane to the Gift of the Givers to deliver 18 tons of essential food and antimalaria medication to Mogadishu on 16 August 2011. This latest consignment brings to 120 tons the total aid delivered to Somalia by the Gift of the Givers in a two-week period.
In addition, government collaborated with other South African-based organisations that are contributing to the relief work for Somalis in Somalia and in refugee camps in neighbouring countries. These organisations include Islamic Relief South Africa, Africa Muslim Agency, Netcare South Africa, the Al-Imdaad Foundation and the Somali Community Board of South Africa. Members of the South African business community were also motivated to contribute, and food and other essential items were donated.
The total amount of the South African contribution, including government and civil society, is difficult to quantify at this stage, but certainly exceeds R20 million.
As the hon member is aware, the African Union hosts the Pledging Conference this week in Addis Ababa, where the South African Government will make further pledges.
Let me use this opportunity to restate that South Africa, SADC and the AU's position on Somalia is that it is only under conditions of peace, stability and unity that a humanitarian crisis like this can be mitigated.
We therefore call on all parties involved to work towards a lasting solution to the political crisis in that country.
Once again we thank all individuals and organisations in South Africa that made contributions through various platforms, including the SABC telethon. I thank you.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for the reply. I wish also to recognise the efforts of everyone involved.
However, the Somali humanitarian crisis is an international source of concern, particularly for Africa. The role of the AU has been very ham-fisted and unco-ordinated, due to the fact that there is no humanitarian arm in the AU that specifically deals with such crises.
The question therefore is whether you would agree that the AU needs to have a humanitarian agency or arm that will be responsible for dealing specifically with such crises in future, and what the South Africa is government doing to encourage the AU to establish such. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, I should like to thank hon Mokgalapa. The need for a permanent humanitarian agency no doubt exists, but many of the African countries depend on aid, including aid for their own budgets. Some of them even struggle to pay their dues to the AU. However, that does not mean that such a body or agency should not be established and resources mobilised for such emergencies. I believe this is an idea that can be taken forward through the Department of International Relations and Co-operation. Thank you.
Mr K S MUBU
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr K S MUBU: Hon Speaker, I would like to thank the Deputy President for the replies. Considering that there is no central government in Somalia, what role has the AU played to ensure that all relief efforts to this country are co-ordinated and that they reach those who really deserve the help? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, yes, indeed, there is a central government in Somalia. It is an interim government, but it is unable to move out of Mogadishu. Essentially, Somalia is under the control of family warlords.
However, despite this tragedy, the relief is able to reach those who need it most, as I said, both inside Somalia as well as in refugee camps in the immediate surrounding neighbour states. So, that part is taken care of because the peacekeeping forces continue to push the warlords back and are able to reach the needy, internally displaced. Thank you.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, in appreciating all the efforts the Deputy President has alluded to, is it perhaps not about time for us, in pursuance of the proposal for the special fund that was suggested, to have an extraordinary donor conference that can be dedicated to lessen that famine? Would the government be agreeable to a proposal for such a conference to be organised and maybe make a call to the AU as well? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, perhaps we have to suggest to our leaders who would be attending the Pledging Conference this week, to also place this proposal on the table and see what the response would be from other member states. As I have said, a pledging conference has been convened in Addis Ababa for this week. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon Deputy President. Hon members, that concludes questions to the Deputy President. Thank you, Deputy President. [Applause.]
The next item on the Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in the Economic Cluster. Hon members, I have been informed that Question 89 and Question 91, which have been asked by the hon G M Borman and the hon H P Maluleka, respectively, to the Minister of Public Enterprises have been withdrawn. Question 146 has been asked by the hon D T George to the Minister of Finance.
QUESTIONS – CLUSTER 4: ECONOMICS – THEMINISTER OF FINANCE
QUESTIONS – DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 146:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Speaker, the youth employment subsidy discussion paper entitled "Confronting Youth Unemployment: Policy Options for South Africa" was released on Budget day as we all know. The discussion paper proposed that the youth employment subsidy be implemented from 2012, following a process of consultation that included: firstly, discussion between the economic sectors and the employment cluster of the youth employment subsidy, as part of the multipronged strategy to tackle youth unemployment.
Secondly, discussions were initiated on the youth employment subsidy and other proposals through the Nedlac process to gather further inputs from social partners.
Finally, proposals were made to the Cabinet.
Discussions have taken place within the economic sectors and the employment cluster, and consultation with social partners began at Nedlac on 10 May 2011. These discussions are ongoing and, alongside the public comments received on the discussion paper, will inform a revised document. Thank you.
Dr D T GEORGE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr D T GEORGE: Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for his response. Minister, you are reported to have said that South Africa can only create 4 million jobs by 2025 on our current growth trajectory and that this is not enough to make a dent in unemployment. This is below the New Growth Path objective to create 5 million jobs by 2020. A youth wage subsidy is a fiscal policy intervention to lower the price to employers of new and inexperienced workers, but it will not resolve the problem of unemployment and poverty on its own.
Hon Minister, you have said, "We may have to change the labour dispensation in South Africa". We know that Cosatu does not support the youth wage subsidy. What steps are you taking to ensure that their opposition to it does not prevent its implementation? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Speaker, the hon George is conceding that, firstly, we do need ambitious targets for job creation in South Africa. Secondly, the whole purpose of the New Growth Path is to set the economy on a trajectory which will enable us to begin to reach out to that kind of ambitious target.
Nowhere in the New Growth Path do we suggest that the youth wage subsidy is the only way in which we will get there. There are a host of measures, which include, amongst others, microeconomic, macroeconomic, sectoral interventions, the Ipap programme that Min Davies is championing, that will be required to get us to the 5 million jobs.
Let us also be very mindful of the global economy and the dynamics that are unfolding there. All of that also will have a serious impact upon growth prospects in South Africa. Exactly what those impacts will be will be determined in the next few months as we get some level of stability within the global situation, if we will get there at all.
The discussions in Nedlac are aimed precisely at understanding the concerns, some of which are very legitimate, such as: will workers that are subsidised through the youth wage subsidy replace existing permanent workers in an enterprise? Will there be other unintended consequences? Our appeal to everyone concerned is that the youth wage subsidy is only one instrument amongst many others. There are other strategies being worked upon as well and, finally, if there are design issues as far as youth wage subsidy is concerned, let us sit around the table and find relevant answers. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mrs C DUDLEY: Mr Speaker, to the hon Minister, my question is in regard to those unintended consequences that you have just touched on. In implementing the proposals, what monitoring process do you foresee being in place to prevent the growth of businesses whose only rationale is to absorb public money through subsidies, to prevent employers replacing unsubsidised workers, as you mentioned, with the subsidised ones and to prevent the wasting of government money if jobs that would have existed in any event are also subsidised? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Speaker, these are precisely the kinds of issues that we hope through the Nedlac and other processes that we will address. Clearly - and I must reiterate this quite emphatically - the intention is certainly not all of the issues that hon Dudley has mentioned as the outcomes of any process like this. However, let me also reiterate that we should not think that the youth wage subsidy is the panacea for the unemployment problems that we have in South Africa.
There are many more things we need to do to restructure and reposition our economy. The monitoring mechanisms, in this particular regard, will, certainly, have to ensure that the kind of consequences that the hon member is speaking about are not the outcomes of any of this process.
Mr T D HARRIS
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr T D HARRIS: Mr Speaker, the Minister is correct to say that the New Growth Path does not say that the youth wage subsidy is only way of tackling the youth unemployment, mainly because the New Growth Path does not mention the youth wage subsidy. Nevertheless, Mr Speaker, in February this year, National Treasury published the discussion document on the youth wage subsidy 10 months late. The former director-general said that the discussion document appears to present the subsidy as a definite plan which would have been implemented on 1 April, but it was a proposal and not a policy of government. So my question is: Is this a proposal or a policy? Secondly, what are the prospects of Treasury missing their second major deadline on implementation of the youth wage subsidy?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Speaker, given that we are saying this is one of many proposals before all of us to find solutions to, in particular, youth unemployment in South Africa, there is nothing fatal about missing one or other deadline. The real issue is how do we accommodate all of the concerns there might be? How do we accommodate alternate ideas that there might be on this particular issue on this particular issue of the youth wage subsidy or anything else?
What hon members need to focus their minds on is what alternate proposals we have. What other ideas do we have to create employment in South Africa? Hon members should rather not take this kind of approach, which I don't think is helpful ultimately. So, in direct response to hon Harris, a lot depends upon the consultation processes as to whether this or any other idea gets off the ground. However, I must reiterate that we share the urgency that I hope other members share as well that something needs to get off the ground to ensure that unemployed youth do have better prospects than they have up to now.
Ms Z S DUBAZANA
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Speaker, through you to the Minister, the ANC would like to understand whether the private sector will be involved in the youth wage subsidy. If so, what criteria will be used to select those companies that will be utilising a subsidy? That is the first one.
The second one, within the consultation process, some of the ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, the rule is just one question, not a series of questions.
Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Sorry Speaker, it is a follow-up. [Laughter.] It is a continuation.
The SPEAKER: Is it a continuation of the follow-up? [Laughter.]
Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Yes. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Please conclude, hon member.
Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Speaker, some of the stakeholders raised an issue that the subsidy might be abused in the sense that the companies will retrench their employees and then employ the youth, to be in a position to utilise the subsidy. Based on that, hon Minister do you have any monitoring measures towards that? [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Speaker and hon Dubazana, the private sector is involved through the Nedlac process and the criteria will be the willingness of a company to abide by the conditions of the youth wage subsidy. In that sense, the companies will self-select themselves. On the issue of monitoring, I actually answered that question when I responded to the earlier ones. Thank you.
QUESTION 137
QUESTION 146
Question 137:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Deputy Speaker, the answer to hon Dexter is that the issue of the Information and Communications Technology, ICT, with Kumba is in court. That particular right is in court right now. When it comes to the issue of the Hawks, I just need to indicate that their action was highly irregular and unacceptable.
Mr P D DEXTER: Deputy Speaker, is the Minister aware that one of the shareholders in ICT, whose name can be furnished to her, has been implicated in a number of similar cases where mineral rights have been awarded to companies associated with the individual concerned, under similar dubious circumstances?
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Deputy Speaker, hon member, we have a process of how people apply to be involved in the mining industry. We do not count numbers as to how many times they have applied. What we are guided by is the law. In the law, the issues you are raising are in there. I am not aware as to what areas you are referring wherein to the person concerned has been involved in.
You are better informed, I do not know it. Therefore, I cannot respond to that. So far, what we have is legitimate. You also have the right to apply. We do not look at whether you apply a hundred times, but at whether your application is complaint. That's what guides us in terms of the law.
Adv H C SCHMIDT
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the raid on the office of the department by the Hawks indicate the disastrous state of affairs and the lack of trust in the ability of the department to fulfil its task in issuing mining licenses.
It does not help you slamming the Hawks. Flowing from the above, will the Minister consider the establishment of an independent regulator to fulfil its tasks, to avoid any raids by the Hawks in future and to ensure the trust in the department is rebuilt? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Deputy Speaker, if the hon member thinks that what has been done by the Hawks was right – he is wrong. They did not only raid our offices as the state, they also raided the state's law advisors. What does it mean to you as a Member of Parliament?
The state no longer has the right to defend itself. If they also raid your lawyers as an individual, when they are defending you, would you allow the law enforcement agencies to raid those people? It is irregular, because the state's law advisors were our legal advisors. That is exactly what we are saying - it is irregular.
I do not understand what you mean by the independent regulator. We are the regulator. We are independent from what? Because everything falls within a particular law. You cannot talk about irregular.
Mr M F GONA
THE MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr M F GONA: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, we are wondering in our minds whether the raid by the Hawks was really necessary. Therefore, the questions are: firstly, did the Hawks request any information from the Department of Minerals and Energy, through either normal government channels or in any other manner whatsoever, before conducting this Hollywood-style raids?
Secondly, there is a recent interdict granted by the Northern Cape High Court that bars the usage of the information in the possession of the Hawks or the passing over of that information to Kumba or to other litigants. In your view, does this not suggest any possible collision between the elements within the Hawks and the litigants involved in the current case between government and the Department of Mineral Resources? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to indicate to the hon member that the issue he raised about the interdict was indeed irregular. Hon member, you are right, we went to court because it was quiet clear that there was some information taken by the Hawks and given to Kumba. That raises a lot of questions about the legitimacy of the raid conducted by the Hawks.
When any law enforcement agency raids an institution, it should record and keep that information. So we were surprised that the information was immediately passed on to Kumba. You raised another question about the actions of the Hawks - it is quiet clear that they had gone beyond their jurisdiction.
Those are some of the issues which make us wonder what the relationship between Kumba and the Hawks, as a law enforcement agency, is.
Mr V B NDLOVU
THE MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sekela Somlomo, mhlonishwa uma ngizwa kahle umhlonishwa usho ukuthi ngamanye amazwi, okokuqala, laba ababephenya babefanele ukuba bacele kuyena yini? Okwesibili, ngabe ngizwa kahle uma umhlonishwa ethi bathatha imibuzo yonke bayimikisa kuKumba, asimazi-ke thina uKumba sizwa ngaye umhlonishwa ekhuluma ngaye.
Thina sazi ukuthi yilabo abebefanele ukuphenya. Ukuphenya kanti kufanele kutshelwe loyo muntu ofanelwe aphenywe yini? Noma kufanele ukuthi baphenywe labo okufanelwe baphenywe ngoba bayizigebengu?
English:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Deputy Speaker, they do not have to ask for permission from me. The protocol says that the Minister of Police was supposed to write to the Minister of Justice, who in turn was supposed to write to me indicating that they required the following information from my department. This did not happen. It was never brought to the attention of the three of us.
IsiZulu:
Siyezwana bab'uNdlovu? Abazange basitshele, abatshelanga muntu. Into abayenzile bahambe bayotshela amaphepha, bazisa abamaphephandaba ukuthi bazohlasela (raid), sayithola naleyo. Okwesibili, uma ubuza ukuthi lokho abakwenzile babenayo imvume na?
Njengoba singuhulumeni imvume kufanele ihambe ngendlela efanele, ngendlela yokucela. Uma singavumi, kumele uNgqongqoshe wezoBulungiswa asho ukuthi uzothatha siphi isinqumo. Hhayi bamane batheleke emahovisini kahulumeni benguhulumeni.
QUESTION 118
QUESTION 137
Question 118:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank hon Sisa Njikelana for the question. The question is in relation to the matters related to the integrated Energy, Environment, Empowerment – Cost Optimisation, iEEECO. I just want to say that the department has never been requested to participate in the Witsand iEEECO project.
With regard to the Kuyasa project, the answer is: Yes, the Designated National Authority, DNA, within the Department of Energy issued a letter of approval to Kuyasa in 2005. A letter of approval is a prerequisite for any project that wishes to participate in the Clean Development Mechanism, CDM, under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, UNFCCC.
The rules and procedures governing the CDM require a letter of approval from the DNA of the host country, which confirms that the project's activity assists the country in achieving sustainable development. This was a once-off process from the department and the project could receive the Certified Emission Reductions, CERs, if its performance gets approval from the executive board. The accreditation period for this project is seven years.
On part two of the question, the answer would be, indirectly, yes. Please note that the DNA does not provide any financial support to projects. It does, however, provide technical support relating to the clarification on CDM rules and procedures.
Kuyasa was the first South African CDM project to be registered and also the first gold standard project in the world. In 2008, the DNA nominated Kuyasa for the UNFCCC CDM International Photo Contest 2008 under the theme "Changing Lives", which it subsequently won. It received capital grants from the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs and the provincial government Department of Housing. The project has retrofitted 2 310 houses with solar water heaters, insulated the ceilings and provided electrical wiring and compact fluorescent light bulbs.
The greenhouse gas emissions reductions are estimated to be approximately 2,8 tons per household per year over a period of seven years. The project will generate income from the sales of carbon emission reduction certificates. A ton of certified emission reduction can be traded at approximately 10 to 13 euros on the spot market.
With regard to part three, the department has noted some lessons from this project and the project can be replicated throughout the country. Kuyasa has created a focus of attention for dealing with renewable energy in households and throughout the country.
Another similar project called the SassaLow Pressure Solar Water Heating Programme was registered by the CDM executive board on 12 April 2011. A number of projects are underway, including the Cosmo City solar water heating project of the City of Johannesburg, the Nelson Mandela Bay Municipality and the Ekurhuleni Municipality solar water heating projects. These projects are also benefiting from the energy efficiency and demand side management fiscal allocations. Thank you.
Mr S J NJIKELANA
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr S J NJIKELANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I must thank - through you - the hon Minister. Even my follow-up question has been answered. All I can do is to commend her on the work that the department has done. This, actually, highlights the need for us to introduce energy efficiency practices in housing. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Njikelana; that was not a question. I call upon hon Mazibuko.
Mr D C ROSS
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr D C ROSS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am sure it is Ross. I think the microphones have just been mixed up, thank you. I will ask the question on behalf of hon Mazibuko.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You will not start with that different microphones thing, huh?
Mr D C ROSS: Yes, we hope it will be sorted out, Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you. May I proceed?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
Mr D C ROSS: Thank you for your response, hon Minister. Recognising the progress in this wonderful project, I think many of the questions I had in mind have already been answered. Let me just ask whether the department still has plans to extend these projects outside the Western Cape - as you have indicated - because of the progress. Do you, perhaps, have any targets set for the department to be involved in these projects, as you have mentioned that the department has not been involved? Could the Minister also confirm – and I think you have made a confirmation of 310 houses – but how many houses were built, specifically, in Atlantis and Kuyasa; and what was the cost, approximately, per home because that would be interesting? Could you also, perhaps, give an indication regarding the total cost of the project? With regard to the lessons learned, Madam Minister, I thank you. I think this is very important as this project optimises the potential for harvesting solar and wind as renewable energy projects. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Deputy Speaker, thank you for the question from Mr Mazibuko-Ross ... [Laughter.] ... Mr Ross, as I have indicated in my response, it is our intention to use the lessons learned from Kuyasa, because, as you would have realised, there is an integrated energy solution for households, through which we could be able to make sure that South African households or houses are energy efficient or have an integrated energy solution in future.
Let me just indicate that the Department of Energy, together with the Department of Trade and Industry, are finalising the building construction regulations. These regulations will determine that each and every unit built in South Africa, irrespective of whether it is a house or an industrial building, needs to have an integrated energy solution; for example, gas for cooking and space heating, as well as for other related heating services in a particular establishment.
However, solar water heating, in particular, is very important; especially if you look at our hospitality industry. We have already engaged with the Department of Tourism to make sure that they engage the Tourism Grading Council so that energy efficiency becomes one of the criteria to determine the grading of establishments.
However, you must also remember that we have indicated that we need to reduce our over-reliance on electricity from the grid to make sure that it is only the lights and other appliances that consume electricity from it. I just need to indicate that I did arithmetic, but I am unable to quickly calculate what 2,8 tons per household for 2 310 households could turn into in seven years. I will give myself an opportunity to calculate that and give you the necessary response. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 94
QUESTION 118
Question 94:
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, in 12 months - up to the end of June this year - 64 000 new jobs were created. In the nine-month period since the release of the New Growth Path document, namely from the end of the 3rd quarter of last year, 150 000 new jobs were created. After seven consecutive quarters of year-on-year job losses, we have now had two quarters of consecutive year-on-year job growth. If we break this down in more detail, using 1 October 2010 as the starting point, we see that the size of the total labour force – that is the employed and unemployed - grew significantly, particularly in the first two quarters of this year. We had about 200 000 people entering the labour market in each of the first two quarters of this year.
Secondly, the formal sector employment grew by about 155 000 persons while the informal sector grew by 41 000 persons over that period. But agriculture declined quite sharply by 42 000 jobs.
The pace of job growth has slowed down in the recent quarter. Since the release of the New Growth Path, government has taken a number of steps to ensure that we address the challenge of jobs. In the time available, I can only give a few examples on agriculture and in agro-processing. For example, a number of large agro-processing projects have been announced - a seed crushing plant in Mpumalanga. This will create up to 4 000 job opportunities in agriculture. A chicken farming project in the Free State has also been announced, and it has an employment of about 800 persons.
In speeding up the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme with 65 sites and 7 500 young persons who were taken up in this programme, the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, has set aside R7,7 billion for investment in the agricultural value chain. Similarly, we can give examples in mining and beneficiation and manufacturing in the green economy. I will be very happy to pass this information to the hon member. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon Minister for the response and the initiatives that have been taken to ensure that more jobs are created. Hon Minister, I have a report which says that South Africa's unemployment rate rose marginally to 25,7% in the second quarter. More and more people are becoming unemployed whilst in certain areas, yes, you may be creating jobs.
I think the challenge, Minister - and I need a response from you - is that, whilst economic growth predictions may suggest that we will get a higher percentage in growth – the Minister of Finance may be able to confirm this - it is not commensurate with growth in jobs. Maybe we will get more people - 3% or 3,5% of economic growth - but this is not commensurate with jobs.
Both the Ministers in the Presidency: National Planning Commission and Finance have recently called for - and I want to be more exact with this - a more jobs-friendly legislation. We have not heard you saying anything about that, Mr Minister, and I would like to know if you have a view on that particular statement or on a call for this. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me start with the first part of the follow-up question. I think what we need to see with the job numbers is something very important. The size of the labour force is growing dramatically. We had job growth on a quarterly basis, but not fast enough. We don't have enough job growth to take account of the inadequate labour force.
Coming to the second issue, I think Minister Gordhan has given a comprehensive reply to the question of youth employment. If one wants to deal with labour market issues, there are three remarks I want to make. The first one is that we need more than labour market measures. We need a comprehensive response, and we need to set it out in the New Growth Path - tackle monopoly pricing and concentration ownership, address skills challenges in the economy and deal with infrastructure issues.
Secondly, we need to clearly define the labour market measures. What are those measures? We have an option of concentrating on building partnerships and tackling productivity challenges of our country or alternatively start a major industrial conflict over this or that piece of legislation. What government is focusing on is how to build a common vision in this country and how to unite everybody around a productivity vision.
This goes to the third point. Ultimately we are not going to resolve these issues in a piecemeal way. For that we need a social accord that brings together organised labour, the business community and government and places difficult issues on the table - wages, executive pay, prices and jobs. That is the approach we are taking as government; that is the view set out in the New Growth Path; and that is the view all my colleagues are propagating in their public comments. Thank you.
Mr G B D MC INTOSH
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mr G B D MC INTOSH: Deputy Speaker, with specific reference to the national growth path, has the hon Minister applied his mind on how the benefits offered by the African Growth and Opportunity Act can add value to the national growth path? In seeking partners - he has just been talking about a social compact or an accord and support for the New Growth Path - has the hon Minister sought to meet with the senior management of Walmart and make them aware of the competitive advantages given under the African Growth and Opportunity Act for sourcing consumer products manufactured in Africa and in South Africa? Since the Minister is here with his formidable troika that is pushing this national growth path, perhaps we should ask them if they, together as a troika, have sought to build a positive and constructive relationship with Walmart to build jobs for South African manufacturing.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I will let the members of the troika speak for themselves.
Let me say that on the African Growth and Opportunity Act we do see opportunities. Therefore, we are lobbying strongly for the extension of the African Growth and Opportunity Act. We are also seeking revision on some of the provisions of the African Growth and Opportunity Act to benefit South African manufacturing.
Let me deal with the Walmart issue. The simplest answer to this is that indeed we met with the management of Walmart on more than one occasion, and we have engaged them precisely on this issue. The issue was on how one can make sure that their entry to South Africa helps to increase the total number of jobs in our economy, both by them procuring locally and by them incorporating South African companies in the global supply chain?
But there is a tough issue. No country has ever been able to create sustainable wealth, jobs and prosperity based on consumption only. You cannot shop your way to wealth and jobs. You have to produce, have factories, have agricultural products and beneficiate your mining products. Therefore, if Walmart wants to come to South Africa, it has to partner with us. It also has to procure from South African companies. We cannot afford an industrial wasteland with many factories closing because we built a super highway between South Africa and other Asian countries. There has to be a focus on South African jobs. That is the priority of this government. I hope it is the priority of this august House. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, is there any process in place to monitor fluctuations of investment and the migration of skilled workers as a result of this growth path? If so, what methods and results have been seen so far, and if not, what are the reasons? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, hon member, government does look at the flow of investment as well as the stock of investment in the economy. The information is published regularly in the quarterly bulletin of the Reserve Bank. Recently there was quite a bit of publicity around the world investment report of United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, Unctad, that looked at investment flows into South Africa. It is important to contextualise that investment by its nature is lumpy. In other words, it does not go in a smooth curve. If you have a major transaction, for example a Standard Bank transaction where a major foreign bank takes equity in the bank, suddenly your Foreign Direct Investment, FDI, will rise significantly. If you don't have the same transaction next year, it will drop suddenly. We do monitor this. This is a very important part of the work that the National Treasury and the Reserve Bank does and that Cabinet applies its mind to from time to time.
On the question of skills, in the New Growth Path we particularly call for a different regime in encouraging skilled immigration into South Africa. That has to be complemented with retaining our own skills base. You can go to Dubai and you will see a marvel of South African engineering and South African skills that have transformed the economy. So, part of what we need to do is to ensure, through active and dynamic economic activity, that we seek to encourage the New Growth Path and create an opportunity for skilled South Africans to deploy more of their talents domestically. Thank you.
Mr L S NGONYAMA
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, if we take the comments from the Minister of Finance - the teacup comments - he said the target of five million jobs by 2020 that has been set is difficult to reach or is unreachable. This means the target is completely off of the table.
He went on to say that a target of only four million will be reached by 2025. What is your comment on that, Mr Minister?
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, let me start by correcting the hon Smuts. I would encourage him to read the speech by the hon Minister of Finance, who clearly did not say that the target won't be reached or that the target should be changed. In fact, the Minister of Finance indicated that it will be a challenge to reach the target if we do things the way we have always done.
That goes to the heart of what we seek to do. We have to change the way in which the state works, the private sector and so on. I think what the Minister of Finance indicated in the speech is a number of measures in the New Growth Path that need to be implemented with urgency and with focus. I hope that addresses the one issue.
I do wish to conclude with the comment that the five million jobs target was always a stretch target. It is necessary. It is a stretch target in a society with high levels of unemployment. That requires, as I indicated in the reply to an earlier question, a national consensus on how we move forward and some agreements between government and partners in the wealth-creating machinery of the economy, business and labour. Thank you very much.
Mrs D R TSOTETSI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I have pressed my thing here. I am not sure if it is working well.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is working well. I didn't call you because we were already over four follow-up questions. We are now on another question.
Mrs D R TSOTETSI: There is a question for Minister Patel.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member. We have called all the speakers who wanted to ask Mr Patel a question - all four of them.
Mrs D R TSOTETSI: I did press here. That is why I'm saying I'm not sure if this thing is working.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is working. Your name was here. But it was not amongst the four that pressed their buttons first. If you want to speak, you have to press your button first so that you can be within the first four. That is the Rule of this House.
QUESTION 133
QUESTION 94
Question 133:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, the response to the first part of the question is that when the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises resolved on 2 November 2010 that a cash injection of R1,964 billion be provided to the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund to cover an ex gratia payment of five months pension, a base upliftment of 3,21% and a 75% of Consumer Price Index, CPI, and annual increase going forward on the 3,21% uplifted base, it was recognised that a funding solution still needed to be finalised.
The Minister of Finance has met with the Minister of Public Enterprises and reached agreement that Transnet will be responsible for providing all of the funding. To effect this decision, it requires the following process be followed: firstly, the rules need to be amended and drafted accordingly; secondly, approval of the rule amendments by the board of trustees together with the support from the actuaries; thirdly, approval of the rule amendments by the board of directors of Transnet; fourthly, approval of the rule amendments by the Minister of Public Enterprises together with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance; and lastly, rule amendments to be gazetted, at which time the amended increase policy can be implemented.
The response to the second part, as highlighted in the answer above, is that the additional financing required for the payment to the pensioners over and above the existing funds surplus is to be provided by Transnet. Payments can be effected once the pension funds governance process, as outlined above, has been completed.
Thank you.
Dr S M VAN DYK
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr S M VAN DYK: Chairperson, the DA welcomes the statement by the Minister of Finance, although this process has taken longer than it should have. It is vital that those pensioners, who have been suffering in the absence of appropriate pension increases, receive relief as soon as possible. According to the resolution taken by Parliament in November last year, Transnet pensioners should be given a lump sum back pay equal to five months pension and annual increases calculated as 75% of CPI on an increased basic pension amount. The DA welcomes the statement that the Minister made today.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, we welcome the welcome and, secondly, the fact that this matter might have taken longer than one anticipated is certainly not in our hands so we regret that.
Dr G W KOORNHOF
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Deputy Speaker, I think the absence of the Freedom Front Plus in the House is an indication how important they view this issue.
I will not ask a question but just make the following statement. This issue is currently not before Parliament or the executive or National Treasury. Transnet has already reported to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises that they have received a letter from the Minister of Public Enterprises in April 2011. The Transnet board has met in June 2011 and instructed the management to find a funding solution based on the report from Parliament.
This is now a matter to be addressed between Transnet and the board of trustees of the two pension funds. Transnet, as the Minister has indicated, has already committed itself to cover any deficit. The administrative and statutory processes need now to be completed as soon as possible, as a matter of urgency. Thank you.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you hon member. That was a comment, hon Minister.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Vacant? [Laughter.] Seats press themselves. There's a vacant seat that just pressed the button.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I already made my statement. You already gave me the opportunity, and I just made the statement to the Minister. Thank you.
QUESTION 98
QUESTION 133
Question 98:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the question makes reference to whether there are measures in place to ensure that service providers and directors of companies who defraud the state are blacklisted.
There are basically two provisions under which such activities can be undertaken by the National Treasury, and I am going to outline that briefly.
The first is section 28 of the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act of 2004, which prescribes that, when a court convicts a person of an offence in respect of corrupt activities relating to contracts, or to the procuring and withdrawal of tenders, the court may rule that the name of such persons, directors or other persons who wholly or partially exercise control over the enterprise, be endorsed on the Register for Tender Defaulters.
The National Treasury must determine the period – which may not be less than five years and not more than 10 years – for which the particulars of the convicted persons or enterprises must remain on the Register for Tender Defaulters. During such period, the public sector may not conduct business with such a person.
The second instance arises from the Preferential Procurement Regulations, as well as the general conditions of contract. This empowers an accounting officer or authority to restrict an enterprise or its directors, trustees, or shareholders, for a period not exceeding 10 years, if such enterprise did not fulfil the conditions of contract, or has been engaged in corrupt or fraudulent practices, in competing for, or in executing the contract.
In such cases, the accounting officer or authority must follow the audi alteram partem rule which, in English, means hear the other side, when informing the person of the intention to restrict him or her. The person concerned must be afforded an opportunity to provide reasons why such restrictions should not be imposed.
When an enterprise or person is restricted by an accounting officer or authority, the National Treasury must be informed accordingly and the names of the enterprises or persons are endorsed on the database of restricted suppliers, which is maintained by the National Treasury. Both the Register of Tender Defaulters and the database of restricted suppliers have been made public and are available on the National Treasury's website.
All spheres of government and schedule 3A, 3C and municipal entities, are required to verify the status of recommended bidders, in order to ensure that no recommended bidders that are listed as companies prohibited from doing business with the public sector, do so. Adherence to this prescript also forms part of the Auditor-General's annual audit. Thank you.
Dr Z LUYENGE
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr Z LUYENGE: Madam Deputy Speaker, in appreciation of an elaborate and splendid response by the Minister, I will, on behalf of the ANC, suggest that the hon Minister apply certain methods in order to ensure that the applicability of this notion is actually visible at the lower levels of governance. Thank you very much for the response.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, let me thank the hon Luyenge for his suggestion, we will discuss with him and others what ideas they have for higher visibility.
One of the challenges, in the first instance, with regards to the tender defaulters, is that it is a court of law that must make the decision, and where that decision is not explicitly made in the judgement, if you like, that is passed by a court of law, no name can be put on any register. That is one of the difficulties in having a very short list of names in respect of tender defaulters. Thank you.
Dr D T GEORGE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, Minister, the Tender Default Register was empty for a long time and it has only recently featured the names of some of those who have defrauded the state.
As you mentioned, it is only after the court orders it necessary, that a name is placed on the register. Are you considering an amendment to the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, to require automatic entry to the register, in the event of a tender default? If so, please provide relevant details. If not, why? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: We will certainly have a look, hon Deputy Speaker, at the hon George's suggestion. I think the one reason we would be cautious about that, is that you cannot erroneously put somebody's name onto a register and then carry the liability that goes with wrongful decisions. That is why we place the trust in a court of law to make that decision. We will look at other ways of ensuring that defaulters do not benefit from any further business with the state.
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Deputy Speaker, may I perhaps ask the Minister whether he can tell us, off the cuff, how many names have been placed on the register?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, off the piece of paper rather than the cuff, it would appear that there are two names on the list of tender defaulters that I have in front of me, and a list of almost 3 pages – that I assume amounts to probably 50 to 60 names – in respect of the restricted suppliers.
QUESTION 161
QUESTION 98
Question 161:
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the response to the first part of the question asked by the hon Mazibuko is that the department has not called for a moratorium on foreign land ownership. Therefore, the second one falls away. Thank you.
Ms L D MAZIBUKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister Nkwinti, we know that the last time that the ANC government had plans to limit foreign ownership of land, one of your predecessors, the Minister of Land Affairs, Thoko Didiza, commissioned a study which found that only 5% of land was foreign-owned in 2004. As a consequence of these results, she abandoned plans to limit foreign ownership.
Given your recent remarks, in June this year, in which you said that government would, nevertheless, be pursuing a policy of "precarious tenure" to restrict land ownership by foreign nationals, and given your Deputy Minister's remark that government wishes to "guard against the danger that prime land in South Africa gets snapped up by foreigners as this would push up prices", have you instituted or do you plan to institute a research study to establish how much land is foreign-owned as was done by your predecessor and to assess the risks and the benefits to the ruled economy of such a policy proposal? If not, why not; and, if so, what are the relevant details?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Speaker, the hon member is correct. None of my predecessors implemented the recommendations of the panel. So, part of what we are doing now is actually looking at that before we can do any further study. We have looked at that report and we are convinced that we need to implement some of the recommendations of that report. Secondly, you could not implement a tenure reform system and leave them out because they are foreigners and they bring in foreign investment. They have to fall into the same context within which we will be operating and implementing land reform. Thank you.
Mrs N T NOVEMBER
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Mrs N T NOVEMBER: Deputy Speaker, thank you Minister for your response. Are there other measures in place to deal with this matter and what; are the implications for the broader pro poor policy development? If this is left unattended, are there any security implications for the country? Do developed countries open their land to ownership by foreigners? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Speaker, the answer is no. Every country has measures to protect its national assets, including land - particularly land. So, we should not be an exception to that.
Secondly, we find it interesting that actually people who are non-South African citizens, but are residents here have no objection to this because in their own countries this is happening. I think that they have been surprised that in this country we do not yet have this kind of measure to protect our own assets. Thank you.
Mrs A STEYN
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Mrs A STEYN: Deputy Speaker, thank you Minister for the information. Minister, it does not help to beat about the bush here. The important question for us all, and especially for South Africans and possible investors, to know is when are we going to get this much-talked-about Green Paper that must be released? In the leaked version, we saw this proposal of precarious tenure and other issues that need to be dealt with. Some of these have already been implemented, like the plough system. Minister, I just want to know if you can tell us when we can expect this Green Paper. We have been waiting patiently since last year.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: It was approved today by Cabinet for public comment. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, as there is no official data in existence, what unofficial data are you referring to in your references to policy-making in this regard? Two of the nation's leading real estate agents are quoted as saying that, over the past 12 month, less than 5% of all property sales concluded by both of them have gone to non-national buyers, making reasons for targeting foreign land ownership obscure or less obvious. Can you elaborate on this?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Dudley is quite correct, that is exactly the point. The point that she is making when she says official data does not exist and, therefore, formulating policy becomes a problem, is exactly the challenge we are faced with in the department. That is why we have put together a national reference group which includes farmers and intellectuals - that's commercial and emerging farmers - and all of them to sit with us and discuss exactly that point because we have got various data bases which are different in content. So, we want to have one database for the country so that we can formulate policy properly. That is the problem.
QUESTION 127
QUESTION 161
Question 127:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, submissions of special pensions applications closed on 31 December 2010. Therefore, no applications from people applying in their own right were received since 1 April 2011.
However, a total of 1 978 applications were received after the closing date of 31 December 2010 and were declared as late applications. A total of 9 924 applications were received from the under-35 group since January 2009, ending 31 December 2010.
The number of applications processed as at the end of July 2011 is 7 185. The remaining number of 2 739 applications are still at a political verification and research level. Most of the applications received by December 2010 were incomplete as applicants were only submitting these forms to meet the closing date deadline.
A total of 5 667 applications were received in December 2010. Only 3 440 of these applicants were from Africans that were under the age of 30 or over the age of 35, and do not qualify now. These applications came from all provinces. Thank you.
Mr D D VAN ROOYEN
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr D D VAN ROOYEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, in the spirit and the letter of the clarion call by uMkhonto weSizwe veterans, I would really like to commend the Minister and the Ministry for the work that they have done hitherto.
Minister, it has been brought to our attention that some of the applications have been declared dormant mainly because applicants can't be traced. Now, I was just wondering that, instead of relying on directly engaging applicants, won't you consider using political organisations of the affected applicants to trace them so that this process can be completed appropriately.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon van Rooyen, we are certainly in touch, as far as I am aware, with the various political organisations. However, if there is any specific recommendation that will help us to expedite these matters, please feel free to guide us. Thank you very much.
Dr D T GEORGE
The MINISTER OF FINANCE
Dr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, Minister, the aim of the special pension is to compensate those who were unable to accumulate pension benefits, given their participation in the struggle for democracy in South Africa.
Is there an ongoing process to evaluate the financial means of a special pension recipient to ensure that those who no longer acquire assistance no longer receive the pension? If so, please provide the relevant details; if not, why? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, this process is pretty much incomplete still. However, I think that the idea of an ongoing assessment is a good one. It will assist us to ensure that funds from this fund are used in an appropriate way. I will enquire whether there are any further details that we could supply to hon George and then let him have them. Thank you.
QUESTION 97
QUESTION 127
Question 97:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Deputy Speaker, the process of registering companies to require limited liability status is the first step towards participating in economic activity; and it is therefore imperative that it takes place smoothly and efficiently.
The Company in Intellectual Property Commission is an autonomous commission responsible for its own administration, but reporting to the Minister of Trade and Industry. I have interacted on a number of occasions with them about some of the challenges and problems that they are facing. Earlier this week, I went on a walkabout to engage with staff and to see some of the issues and the progress they were making.
The main issue is that, since the formation of the commission and entry into force of the new Companies Act, there was a significant increase in company registrations under way. This took place against the background of some backlogs arising from the old Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office. The question does provide a table showing the status of implementation of various transactions during the course of August up until 18 August.
I think that this shows some significant progress in some areas. For example, name registration is a very important part of the process. Under the new Companies Act, it is not necessary to register a name but many companies do. The number of transactions outstanding at the beginning of August was 31 108, 10 004 applications were received up until 18 August, 37 220 applications were processed, leaving only 3 892 on 18 August.
Similar progress was reported with respect to amendments to companies, where the number of the backlog went down from 19 000 to only 450. The challenges still remain in company registrations and also with co-operative registrations. What is happening is that the leadership of Company and Intellectual Property Commission is now deploying additional resources to try to unblock those particular blockages.
The commission has been mandated to prepare a full update and to table this at a meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on 13 September. They are well aware that we together with Parliament are expecting that there will be further significant progress by that time. Thank you very much.
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI: Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you hon Minister for a response to my question. My follow-up question will be: do you think that the decentralisation of the commission into provincial offices might assist with the current high volume backlog of company registrations; and whether your department has explored the merits or otherwise of this option? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think that at this point, the basic challenges to get some of the processes at head office going to the point where we can start to say backlogs are cleared and that we are now beginning to move further forward. The next phase, as I see it, is that we are going to start to establish some benchmarks in terms of the amount of time it takes to register companies and things like that.
We will certainly explore the way in which decentralisation may assist, but one of the important points is that, under the new Companies Act, it is quite possible to register electronically. Therefore, it is not so necessary to have as many decentralised offices as it might have been under the older systems. Thank you.
Mr T D HARRIS
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr T D HARRIS: Deputy Speaker, it is difficult to overstate just how bad the situation was at the commission when the committee went there. They were registering about 2 400 registrations in the first two months. With Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office, Cipro, we were registering around 6 000. Nevertheless, we take the Minister's words as encouragement.
Minister, one of the main problems at the commission is the fact that of the 1 600 calls that the call centre receives every week, about 1 100 of them go unanswered. We were told that this is because they have a shortage of 30 call centre seats in their call centre, and we were told that they did not have space at the DTI campus to put in 30 more seats.
My question is: will you as Minister approve additional space in the campus for that call centre, or alternatively allow the commission to contract out some call centre capacity perhaps down here to some of our call centres in the Western Cape? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Well, I think the first part of this is that in all these areas of blockage, including the call centre, they have been employing more people. The question of space in the longer term needs to be resolved by CIPC moving off campus. They are aware that it is what we are expecting of them.
In the medium-term they need to find new premises off campus, but in the meantime, we are doing what we can to try to accommodate them in all the various areas. We do see this as a priority piece of work.
Mr N E GCWABAZA
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr N E GCWABAZA: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, CIPC, is only three and half months old. Therefore, it was expected that it would experience teething problems given the challenges it inherited from Cipro.
However, Minister now that the Valour-IT problem has been resolved, could you explain how this is going to assist CIPC to improve the processing of registering new companies as well as addressing the backlog speedily and effectively?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think that the point about moving speedily to the new commission and putting in place a new leadership and a new commission, the data has actually been vindicated by the statistics that had just been given. If we had set a longer period and hoped that we were going to resolve all the problems under the old Cipro, we would have been in more serious trouble than we are in now.
So I believe that the leadership in CIPC, the commission of the Deputy Commissioner and other staff members are now working much more effectively than Cipro ever worked. They have identified a number of the problems and so on. Regarding the point you make about the Valour-IT, well, I think one of the things that they are looking at is whether the type of software, the Enterprise Content Management System, is in fact what they need.
The issue of Valour-IT means that now, there is no legal or other barrier to them acquiring whatever software they need to acquire. They can go ahead and acquire whatever software they need to. However, what they are looking at is whether the choices that were made under the old Cipro and under that contract are the correct ones or whether there are other alternatives. They are seriously looking at other alternatives in a technical sense. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the time allocated for Questions has expired. I only had two speakers here. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.
The House adjourned at 17:59.
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