Hansard: NCOP: Appropriation Bill: Vote No 24-Police

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 18 May 2010

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

WEDNESDAY, 19 MAY 2010

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

__________

The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

NOTICES OF MOTION

START OF DAY

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council –

(1) notes that two senior officers at the Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office, Cipro, have been formally suspended over their involvement in granting a suspect R153 million tender last year;

(2) further notes that the department is in the process of cancelling the fraudulent and sinister contract;

(3) takes this opportunity to congratulate the Trade and Industry Minister, Rob Davies, for his stern action against corruption and fraud in his department; and

(4) urges the Minister to heed to President Zuma's call to ensure that cases of corruption receive utmost priority in order to send a clear message to those who continue to dip their hands into the public purse and manipulate government processes to enrich themselves and their cronies that their selfish deeds will not be tolerated and they have no place in this government.

I so move.

Mr H B GROENEWALD

Mr F ADAMS

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Chairperson, the DA wants to move the House regarding the unacceptable way the Department of Police spent their budget the previous four years.

In the 2006-07 financial year, R484 million was spent on seven police stations, and three buildings were renovated. In the 2007-08 financial year, R727 million was spent in one new police station, and three were renovated. In the 2008-09 financial year, R939 million was spent on one new police station, and five were renovated. In the 2009-10 financial year, R1,1 million was spent, and two new police stations were renovated ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, order! Order! Hon member, I am not sure that is a notice of a motion. We are going to discuss the Budget Vote and you can participate in the Budget Vote in that regard. I am not too sure that is a notice of a motion.

Mr B A MNGUNI

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Mr B A MNGUNI: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council-

(1) notes that a faction of the flagging Cope, led by one of its leaders, Mosiuoa Lekota, released a statement yesterday alleging that the party's parliamentary Chief Whip, Mbazima Shilowa, not only misused the allocated portions of the R20 million parliamentary grant allocated to support the party's parliamentary work, but also solicited and abused some of the funds for personal battles within Cope; and

(2) takes this opportunity to reiterate its call to Parliament and the Secretary to Parliament to institute a formal enquiry into these allegations.

I so move.

Mr D V BLOEM

Mr B A MNGUNI

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council-

(1) notes with astonishment that the ANC Youth League is unable to hold democratic elections as was made manifest in Limpopo and over the weekend in the Eastern Cape;

(2) further notes that in Limpopo things became so chaotic that police had to be called to the meeting to restore order and that some senior ANC Youth League officials were criminally charged for allegedly stealing conference documents;

(3) believes that this bad example is negatively influencing politics in our country; and

(4) calls on government to take measures to introduce electoral reform to safeguard government from political micromanagement and to instil democratic values in the youth league of this country.

Thank you very much.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN

Mr D BLOEM

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the Department of Health in the Eastern Cape has fallen behind in previous financial years with Occupational Specific Dispensation, OSD, and Human Resource Translation of Posts, HRTOP, payments to medical professionals;

(2) further notes that the image of the Eastern Cape Department of Health is almost synonymous with poor management, poor payment of staff and poor financial management;

(3) needs to turn this department around, with the assistance of the Minister;

(4) needs sufficient resources and, in this case, the financial support required for an effective turnaround process, which goes around the OSD and HRTOPs that cost the department R1,6 billion;

(5) further notes that-

(a) from my previous statements in the last ten days on the small operational budget allocations of only 25% and the actual hospital budgets for goods and services, only 70% allocation for staff and the lack of drugs and now the OSD and HRTOP payments;

(b) it is clear that the Eastern Cape Department of Health cannot operate without additional funding;

(6) requests the Minister of Health to investigate the

commitment of his department to OSD.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, your time has expired. Your motion will be printed in full on the next Order Paper.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move

That the Council –

(1) notes that the national leadership of the ANC Youth League took over the running of the Western Cape ANC Youth League branch due to bad administration and other misconduct by the said branch;

(2) further notes that this culminates from the bad situation and character in the failure of the ANC structures in the Western Cape due to factionalism within the ANC and the fight between the Thabo Mbeki and Jacob Zuma groups in the province and nationally in the ANC; and

(3) acknowledges that-

(a) the ANC will struggle for many years to come with these problems because they don't have the political will to address the problems openly and responsibly;

(b) the ANC will have no strong arm to fight the coming local government elections in 2011 and the DA will win most of the councils next year.

[Interjections.] I so move.

Mr O DE BEER

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

Mr O DE BEER: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council –

(1) notes with shock that President Jacob Zuma is now only shocked at the conditions under which people live in informal settlements like Seewater;

(2) notes that members of government are so concurred in layers of comfort that they are no longer in touch with the reality on the ground;

(3) believes that the government never meant to honour the promise of better life for all that together we would like to do;

(4) calls on government to put its money where its mouth is and implement mandates and visible measures to change the circumstances of people like those in the informal settlements.

I so move.

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Mr O DE BEER

CONSTABLE C MABASA'S SUICIDE HORROR

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M H MOKGOBI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that a police officer, Constable C Mabasa, shot and killed his wife and critically wounded his 16-week pregnant sister-in-law who had been living with the couple in Cosmo City near Randburg on Monday, 17 May 2010;

(2) further notes that the police officer who was admitted, fighting for his life, at Milpark Hospital has since passed on, and his sister-in-law is still fighting for her life at the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital;

(3) takes this opportunity to condemn, in the strongest possible terms, this incident and other police suicides and family murders that have left a countless number of children without parents and a lifetime of trauma;

(4) wishes the sister-in-law a speedy recovery;

(5) calls on all police officers to use all the available psychological, family support and counselling services within the police force; and

(6) further calls on the Minister to look at other mechanisms that will encourage and make it mandatory for officers who have either experienced a violent or traumatic experience, or who show signs of distress to receive counselling.

I so move.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms M P THEMBA

Mr M H MOKGOBI

TAXI ACCIDENTS IN CAPE TOWN AND DURBAN

(Draft Resolution)

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that 12 passengers suffered serious injuries when their taxi was involved in an accident near the N2 and Baden Powell Drive intersection while travelling in the direction of Somerset West, Cape Town;

(2) notes that the driver was carrying 27 passengers, instead of the 16 designated for his taxi, and provincial traffic authorities have confirmed that eNatis records show that the driver has no licence and his learner's licence expired on 25 February 2010;

(3) further notes-

(a) that 26 people were seriously injured when two speeding minibus taxis collided on the M4 Southern Freeway in the vicinity of the Durban International Airport late last night; and

(b) that since the Metrorail strike began on Monday, some taxi drivers are reportedly holding communities at ransom and taking advantage of stranded commuters by overloading and overcharging them;

(4) calls on all taxi operators to ensure that their drivers obey the traffic laws, and that they refrain from all sorts of selfish and illegal means, including extorting from desperate and helpless commuters; and

(5) further calls on the MEC for Transport and all relevant authorities to intervene and make themselves visible at the taxi ranks.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms B V MNCUBE

Ms M P THEMBA

READINESS OF SA POLICE SERVICE FOR 2010 FIFA WORLD CUP

(Draft Resolution)

Ms B V MNCUBE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) takes this opportunity to congratulate the demonstration of readiness by the SA Police Force to protect all foreign visitors and teams that will participate in the most anticipated 2010 Fifa World Cup;

(2) calls on all communities to rally behind the police and alert them when witnessing any element of criminality;

(3) further takes this opportunity to tell the world that we are ready; and

(4) calls upon all the people of South Africa to raise their national flags and blow their vuvuzelas as we rally behind Bafana Bafana and say: "Ke nako[Now is the time.], feel it, it is here and we are ready."

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr S D MONTSITSI

Ms B V MNCUBE

CONDOLENCES TO PREMEIR MOKONYANE

(Draft Resolution)

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the death of the brother of Gauteng Premier, Nomvula Mokonyane, who died at the age of 62 at the Charlotte Maxeke Johannesburg Academic Hospital;

(2) further notes-

(a) that Mr Oliver Mkhize was admitted to the Dr Yusuf Dadoo Hospital in Krugersdorp, west of Johannesburg, with heart complications; and

(b) he was later transferred to Charlotte Maxeke Academic Hospital in central Johannesburg, where he sadly passed on; and

(3) takes this opportunity to convey its profound condolences to Premier Mokonyane and her family.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms M W MAKGATE

Mr S D MONTSITSI

THE DEATH OF LEGENDARY SPORTS WRITER, RODNEY HARTMAN

(Draft Resolution)

Ms M W MAKGATE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes with profound sadness the death of legendary sports writer, Rodney Hartman, who died after his long and courageous battle against leukaemia at the Linksfield clinic yesterday;

(2) takes this opportunity to pay tribute to Hartman for his contribution to our country's media, especially in advancing sport broadcasting and analysis;

(3) acknowledges that Hartman spent a year in the navy before starting his journalism career with the SA Press Association, Sapa, in Johannesburg and went on to write three biographies on world boxing champion, Brian Mitchell, cricket captain, Hansie Cronjé and Bacher;

(4) recognises that Hartman also covered the beginning of the anti-apartheid movement's sports protests from Sapa's London office, before joining The Sunday Times, where he was the paper's sports editor and later became the inaugural sports editor of The Sunday Independent;

(5) further notes that Hartman was first a specialist sports writer for the entire independent group of newspapers, which publishes The Star, and went on to occupy various executive roles, culminating in his appointment as the group's sports convenor; and

(6) takes this opportunity to convey its profound condolences to his wife, Carien; his three sons, Justin, Oliver and Scott; and daughter, Emma.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

Ms M W MAKGATE

MATCH OF THE BLUE BULLS ON ORLANDO STADIUM

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that the Blue Bulls will play the Crusaders in a Super 14 semifinal rugby match at the Orlando Stadium in Soweto;

(2) further notes that it will be the first time that a rugby match will be hosted in a soccer arena in Soweto, Orlando Stadium;

(3) recognises that this showcase will bring lots of promising opportunities to the people in Soweto and the executive of the Orlando Stadium now and in other planned matches in the future; and

(4) wishes the Blue Bulls good luck and support to end the match as the winners of the semifinal of the Super 14 rugby competition.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am sorry, but the time for the motions is over. There are two members who wanted to move motions, Mr Bloem and Mr Harris, except the one that I will give to the Chief Whip. Are they very important motions?

Mr T D HARRIS: It's a motion of condolence.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, I will give you one minute just for those two motions.

Mr T D HARRIS

CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

CONDOLENCES TO THE DREYER FAMILY

(Draft Resolution)

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that DA Member of Parliament, Anchen Dreyer, lost her brother, Frans, when the airliner flying from Johannesburg to Tripoli crash-landed last week; and

(2) extends its heartfelt condolences to the Dreyer family, especially Frans' wife, Estelle, and his two daughters, Lisa and Marie.

I so move.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr D V BLOEM

Mr T D HARRIS

INTERVENTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS IN RESPECT OF FAILED MUNICIPALITIES

(Draft Resolution)

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes with serious concern how the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has had to intervene in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution in respect of more and more failed municipalities;

(2) further notes-

(a) that allegations of corruption, maladministration and service delivery are common themes; and

(b) that looting, not governance, characterises many municipalities;

(3) believes that this is a matter of national crisis; and

(4) calls on government to introduce amendments to the Municipal Finance Management Act to better regulate the supply chain management and introduce greater accountability and transparency before local government collapses in its entirety.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Watson, I have seen the note that you have sent to me. Can I come back to you and rule on this one tomorrow? I just want to check the rule to see whether this is a substantive motion that should be moved or a motion without notice. I want to make sure that my ruling is proper and correct. However, the member of the DA can raise this during the debate, if he wants to. We are debating the department's issues today.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

RECOMMENDATION TO APPOINT ADV MODIBEDI ERIC PHINDELA AS SECRETARY TO THE NCOP

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice that the Council, on the recommendation of the Rules committee after consideration of the need to ensure stability of the administration of the NCOP, appoints Adv Modibedi Eric Phindela as Secretary to the NCOP, with effect from 1 June 2010.

I so move.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As there is no speakers' list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall allow provinces the opportunity to make their declaration of votes, if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards. Before I call the voting, please press button number 1 to confirm your presence. There should be lights flashing. Are the lights flashing? If not, the Chamber staff will assist you.

We now come to the voting. When I call the name of a province, the delegation head will vote by pressing button number 4 for those who vote in favour, button number 2 for those who vote against and button number 3 for those who abstain.

I now call upon the provinces:

Eastern Cape?

Free State?

Gauteng?

KwaZulu-Natal?

Limpopo?

Mpumalanga?

Northern Cape?

North West?

Western Cape?

Have all provinces voted? If any of the members have mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, please press the correct button now.

Voting will close. Could the table staff submit the results?

All nine provinces voted in favour. I, therefore, declare the motion agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF POLICE

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL

APPROPRIATION BILL

(Policy debate)

Vote No 24-Police:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Police, Mr Mbalula, chairperson of the select committee, Mr Mofokeng – I didn't see him here today - Is he here? Oh yes ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is very much here.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... hon members of the NCOP, staff in the Ministry, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, 2010 is the year of action. It is a year of ensuring that all people in South Africa are and feel safe. As declared by the President of the Republic, His Excellency Jacob Zuma, on the occasion of the state of the nation address, government shall accelerate service delivery.

The President further made a commitment that the work of government will be measured according to outcomes. To that extent, the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster's job is to ensure that all people in South Africa are and feel safe in their homes, places of work and businesses, whilst they carry on with their lives. In this context, "people" refers to all law-abiding citizens.

Today we want to announce a commencement of the process towards the realisation of the imperative of the Constitution, namely the creation of a single police service. Section 205(2) of the Constitution says:

National legislation must establish the powers and functions of the police service and must enable the police service to discharge its responsibilities effectively, taking into account the requirements of the provinces.

Section 205(3) says:

The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.

We have tasked the secretariat of police to investigate the feasibility of implementing this constitutional imperative. We are mentioning this to sensitise all in our country that, indeed, the work has started. We are, however, under no illusion that this is going to be a protracted process. However, we are committed to it, and achieve it we will.

With regard to the creation of a new kind of a police officer, we need to recruit the right calibre of police officers in order to fight crime and fight it effectively. Whilst fitness and an ability to operate firearms are some of the essentials, it is, in essence, discipline, upholding the Constitution, defending the weak, enforcing the law and being generally upright that should constitute the defining core values of the police. We have in the past year accelerated the issue of recruitment of police members.

Any police organisation requires capable, innovative and upright leaders to guide its personnel. To this end, we have appointed new leadership to take charge of the SA Police Service, SAPS. We have put in place a new National Police Commissioner, General Bheki Cele, to provide general operational leadership, guidance and direction of the SAPS. We have also reinforced our intelligence arm with the appointment of Lieutenant-General Mdluli as a divisional head. As government, we took a stance to fight crime, and fight it toughly and smartly.

To realise this objective certain steps have been undertaken. Amongst these is the transformation of the police ranks to ensure clear lines of command and control, whilst instilling a sense of discipline amongst the members. We are under no illusion that a mere change in ranks will automatically lead to dramatic decline in crimes. The change is but part of a bigger approach in transforming the SAPS. With emphasis around enforcing the highest form of discipline within the police service - be it from the point of view of retraining and reskilling police accordingly to have respect for their peers, their commanders and society in general - it is important to emphasise that the change in police ranks is an operational matter and has no constitutional implications whatsoever.

Section 199(1) of the Constitution talks to the Police Service, and section 207(1) of the Constitution speaks to the National Commissioner and this will continue to be so. There is, therefore, no desire from anybody amongst us to tamper with the policy underpinnings that inform our approach to policing. The issue of how we mobilise and galvanise the material and attitudinal resources of the police to help to enhance discipline, instil confidence and resolve, and uplift the morale within the ranks does not, and should not, be interpreted to mean or suggest policy reorientation.

Transformation should not be viewed in isolation from the other pillars of our strategy, namely the strengthening of the partnerships with the communities to make life difficult for criminals; utilising intelligence as a nerve centre of policing; and strengthening the legislative framework, particularly the oversight of the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, and the Civilian Secretariat of Police.

We shall take no chances with the lives of police officers in the fight against criminals. We shall also not allow abuses by individual police officers to go unchallenged. To address this, we have also strengthened the ICD by appointing Mr Beukman in August 2009 as its executive director.

The Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI - also known as the Hawks - is currently made up of 2 633 members. We have already appointed deputy provincial commissioners in eight of the nine provinces. This additional personnel are currently undergoing vetting. In their short existence, the Hawks have already scored successes in a number of fields. On 6 July 2009, 287 projects from the former Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, were transferred to the DPCI. The SAPS now has an effective process of dealing with Organised Crime Projects Investigations, OCPI.

Concerning organised crime, the Hawks have registered 3 850 arrests, with 573 of convictions. Regarding commercial crimes, there have been 8 186 arrests, with 4 960 of convictions. Furthermore, with regard to the number of people who have been profiled and targeted – the top 50 most wanted criminals – the Hawks have, since December last year, arrested 28 criminals so far, and the work is in progress.

A drug laboratory with drugs to the value of R200 million was recovered in an operation in Midrand in August 2009. A transnational drug bust to the value of R600 million was recovered in Phoenix in September 2009. A drug lab to the value of R1 billion was discovered in December 2009. Other drug busts include the arrest of a school teacher in possession of ephedrine to the value of R35 million in Kempton Park in February 2010. In March 2010, a drug lab in Benoni was closed down and drugs to the value of R5,4 million were seized. These are some of the successes the Hawks have scored in the past few months since its existence.

We are in the process of strengthening the fight against crime related to women and children. To this extent, we have ensured that we are re-establishing the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, unit. A deadline has been set for 1 June 2010 for all vacant funded posts to be filled, and the FCS units need to be fully operational by 1 April 2011. We are happy to announce the appointment of Lieutenant Colonel Bafana Peter Linda to head this unit. Having been based in the United Kingdom, UK, where he acquired extensive expertise in the field, we believe he will be a valuable asset.

Concerning rural safety, we have interacted with a variety of community organisations, political organisations, and so on from a wide spectrum of ideological backgrounds. We have put before the nation the rural safety plan. All what we are waiting for is for everybody to interact with the plan and strengthen it where they think it is weak, before we start implementing it. This will allow the SAPS to get down to where people are in the farms and ensure that life is safe there.

Regarding the issue of the World Cup, we are adequately prepared. As the member has said: "Feel it; it is here!" We are ready. Our readiness ranges from personnel to state of the art equipment, information and communication technologies, ICT, and co-operation with the security agencies from all the 31 participating countries.

Furthermore, at the beginning of March 2010 in Zurich, Switzerland, we presented our comprehensive security plan to all the police chiefs, police experts and everybody who deals with security matters. The plan was given a resounding approval by all the participating countries.

In ensuring that we keep in touch with the people, we have also criss-crossed the country in order to interact with community structures, especially the community policing forums. We have also been able to deal with various issues such as drug abuse, with emphasis on kingpins, the proliferation of firearms and other social crimes. Most of these communities affirmed their support to our programmes and expressed their belief in government. They even raised issues falling outside of policing, thus underlining the point of an integrated approach as government in the fight against crime.

In relation to the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, PSIRA, a council was appointed. The council, which is chaired by Mr Thula Bophela, started operations on 1 January 2010. In the near future we will also be tabling legislation around PSIRA, particularly regulating the industry itself. A consultation process with the relevant stakeholders has already begun. We intend to make sure that the private security industry conforms to the necessary standards, and displays the accountability and openness that is required. We also seek to bring the regulation of the industry in line with international norms and best practices.

Despite the successes that have been achieved, there are a number of challenges that we face and which are being addressed by the department. The Forensic Science Laboratory, FSL, for instance, has decreased its backlog of 2008-09 and 2009-10 financial years by 14%. The FSL is planning to decrease the backlog by a further 20% during the 2010-11 financial year.

However, we have recognised that the current functioning of the FSL is far from ideal. To address this, we are currently in a process of engaging international and local experts with a view of getting assistance in transforming the FSL into a world-class unit.

With regard to declaring 2010 as the year of action to ensure that all people in South Africa are and feel safe, on 30 April 2010 I signed, with the President, my performance agreement. The overall outcome of this measurement is that, on behalf of the Ministry, I must ensure that all people in South Africa are and feel safe. Whilst this is not a task given to an individual, I would, however, be expected, within the collective, to make a valuable contribution to realise this outcome.

Government, together with the people of our land, remains capable on tackling the challenges that South Africa faces today. Collectively, we have a responsibility to bring about a better life for all. Together with communities, government will ensure that criminals are dealt with severely. This is in line with the Freedom Charter which gave birth to the Constitution of the Republic. The Freedom Charter proclaims that there shall be peace, security and comfort. Those who say it cannot be done should not obstruct those who are doing it.

IsiXhosa :

Siyenza ngoku.

Setswana:

Re a dira janong. [Laughter.]

English:

This is the year of action. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T M H MOFOKENG

THE MINISTER OF POLICE

Sesotho :

Mong T M H MOFOKENG: Modula-setulo, Letona le kgabane le Motlatsa-Letona. Ke tlotla ho nna ho nka karolo ditherisanong tsa kajeno.

Ke batla ho qala ka hore, kgaolo ya 205 ya Molao-theo wa selemo sa 1996, o fa sepolesa boikarabelo ba ho thibela le ho fuputsa tlolo ya molao, hore ho be le botsitso setjhabeng; ho tshireletsa le ho boloka maAfrika Borwa mmoho le thepa ya bona; ho boloka le ho kenya tshebetsong melao ya naha ena.

Boikarabelo ba ditekanyetso tsena ke ho hlokomela hore mohopolo le maano a lefapha a tshehetswa ka ditjhelete, ho phethahatsa boikarabelo. Ho na le dibaka ka hara naha ya rona tse hlokang polokeho, hobane ha ho na dikantoro tsa sepolesa; haholo-holo dibakeng tsa rona tse mahaeng.

Re theoletsa lefapha ka mekutu eo le e entseng, ho aha le ho lokisa tse neng di le maemomg a sa lokang, moo ho neng ho le bobebe hore batshwaruwa ba balehe. Tseo di sa ntseng di tlo ho ahwa, di bolokehe mme di kgone ho amohelwa, le batho basa itekanelang.

Batjha ba naha ena ba bangata ba iphumana ba sa sebetse ha ba qeta ho bala sekolong. E se e ka sepolesa se ka etsa ka hohle-hohle ho nka batjha ba iswe thupellong le kwetlisong ya maemo a hodimo hore ba kgone ho tlo thusa ho lwantshana le botloko-tsebe, hobane ha basa etse letho ba qetella ba etsa diketso tsa tlolo ya molao.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho arabela bofokoding bo teng sepoleseng, bo amanang le ho ajwa ha mehlodi twantshong ya bosinyi. Sepolesa se tlamehile ho aba batho ba nang le bokgoni ba tsamaiso le ho fuputsa, dibakeng tseo ba hlokehang ho tsona. Dikoloi le tsona di tlamehile ho ya dibakeng tseo tlolo ya molao e atileng ho tsona, mme le mahaeng di tlamehile ho iswa.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho sebetsana le ho phahamiswa mesebetsing ha mapolesa ho ya ka bokgoni ba bona ba ho sebetsa le hore ba fumane meputso e hantle, e tla etsang hore ba se ke ba amohelwa tjotjo ho tswa mashodung, ba leka ho phetha mabaka ka lebaka la meputso e tlase.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho arabela diphethohong tse tlamehileng ho ba teng sepoleseng, maemong a hodimo a tsamaiso ya sepolesa. Batho ba batsho, maindia le bammala ba tlamehile ho behwa maemong a hodimo a taolo ho ya ka thuto le bokgoni ba bona, e le ho fetola maemo a siilweng ke kgethollo.

Batho ba bomme ka ho kgetholleha le batho ba nang le diphephetso mmeleng, le bona ba tlamehile ho fuwa menyetla ya bona. Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho thusa mapolesa a nang le nnete, a sebetsang ka botshepehi, ho ntsha ka hara bona bana ba se nang botshepehi, ba nang le dikamano le mashodu.

Ho ba le dikamano le mashodu e le mapolesa ho ba etsa mashodu le bona, mme ba tlameha ho ntshuwa sepoleseng, hobane ha se mapolesa ke mashodu. Ba thusang batshwaruwa ho baleha ditlamong; ba utswang ditokomane le dithunya tsa mosebetsi; ba fang mashodu lesedi hore na dithibella tsa mebileng di etsuwa kae, ba tlamehile ho ntshuwa sepoleseng, ha bana sebaka.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho fana ka kwetliso le thupello e hodimo ho sepolesa hore ba kgone ho etsa mosebetsi o phethahetseng, ba iswe mafatsheng a mang, ha ho kgoneha, hore maemo a bona a tshebetso a phahame.

Kgethollo eo ho tletlejwang ka yona sepoleseng e tlamehile ho fela, hobane re batla ho aha setjhaba se sa kgetheng batho ho ya ka merabe. Diforamo tsa setjhaba sa bopolesa di tlamehile ho matlafatswa di thuswe ho kgobokanya setjhaba sa rona kgahlano le bosinyi, mme di kgothalletswe ho sebetsa mmoho le sepolesa hobane batho bana ba tlolang molao ba dula ka hara rona.

Setjhaba sa rona le sona se hlokomediswe hore ho bolawa ha mapolesa ho fekisa ntwa kgahlano le bosinyi., Molao o tshwanela ho sebetsana hampe le batho ba bolayang mapolesa, ka tsela e tla ba beha maemong a lokileng. Mapolesa le ona a etse ka hohle-hohle hore a bolokehe, ka ho apara diaparo tsa bona tse ba tshireletsang nakong ya mosebetsi.

Naha ya rona e fuwe monyetla wa ho hlophisa dipapadi tsa mohope wa lefatshe. Mme batho ba tswang mafatsheng a ka ntle ho tla nka karolo, ba tla tla tshehetsa dinaha tsa bona. Boikarabelo bo ho sepolesa sa rona ho tshireletsa boema fonane; dihotele; mabala a dipapadi; le dibaka moo batho ba tlang ho boha dipapadi teng.

Mashodu le ona a tlo nka monyetla wa ho rekisa dithethefatsi, ba hwebe ka batho, haholo-holo bana, ba tlo etswa diotswa. Ditshoso tse etswang tsa ho phatlola diqhomane ka maikemisetso a ho senya dipapadi ke boikarabelo bo shebaneng le sepolesa sa rona, mme re tshepa hore ba ikemiseditse.

Mmuso wa ANC ke mmuso o hlomphang ditokelo le ho itseka ha basebetsi. Ntwa ya basebetsi, ya nyollelo ya moputso ka nako ena, e tlo sitisa sepolesa sa rona ho tsepamisa maikutlo ho tshireletseng bahahlaudi, nakong ya dipapadi. Re ipiletsa ho baetapele basebetsi le beng ba dikhamapi ho buisana le ho dumellana hore nakong ya dipapadi ho se be le boipelaetso ba basebetsi bo tla hloka sepolesa ho shebana le batho ba tsekang nyollelo ya meputso.

Re tshepa hore ho tla ba le tshebedisano mmoho pakeng tsa sepolesa sa rona le sepolesa se tswang ka ntle, hore ho be le tshireletso e hantle. ANC e tshehetsa ditekanyetso. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.]

Mr A WATSON

Mr T M H MOFOKENG

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, MECs, special delegates, and hon fellow delegates, for us as delegates from the rural provinces, normal life goes hand in hand with nature conservation and the preservation of our wonderful range of game species and their protection against ruthless criminals.

Two nights ago on the evening television programme 50/50, information shared indicated that during the past year alone, ruthless criminals have brutally killed 75 rhinos to fuel their greed for illegal income from the international trade in contraband rhino horn. Particularly encouraging is the proactive efforts to curb this form of crime in our country, together with plans to nullify the profitability of the trade in rhino horn by all stakeholders.

I refer to this type of crime and the fight against it to highlight another highly distressing crime in the rural areas, namely farm attacks and the brutal murder of farm dwellers, both farmers and farmworkers. Information from the Minister's own office reflects that in the same period that 75 rhinos were killed, no less than 794 farm attacks occurred during which a devastating 86 farm dwellers were murdered in South Africa.

One must ask what is really being done by the police to stop or, at least, reduce such murders, especially if compared with a very commendable and wide-ranging measures implemented to curb the slaughtering of rhinos and game poaching. Since 2006, more than four years ago and even more Ministers ago, the DA has been urging the government to substitute the visible crime prevention unit to replace the commandos which were unilaterally disbanded and removed from the rural areas.

Many promises have since been made in regard to an increase in visible police presence and the deployment of reservists in rural areas. Of this, very little has come thus far. On the contrary, whilst cities and urban areas are flooded with police and SAPS vehicles, smaller towns and rural areas still suffer from a shortage of infrastructure, particularly crime-combating vehicles.

I often drive past the SAPS depot in Middelburg, Mpumalanga, where a multitude of brand new SAPS vehicles have been parked for many weeks now, unmoved and gathering dust, to the point where it is no longer clear whether these were white vehicles or perhaps grey, brown or black. I am happy to hear today from the Minister that under his leadership new measures have been instituted, and we wish him well in this endeavour.

However, I must ask, Chairperson, how the Minister explains such a build-up of unused reserve vehicles in the face of a severe shortage of transport to facilitate the important work of the police in the rural areas, whilst he is embarking on increased security measures in the same areas. When will the police be properly empowered to do their work in the rural provinces, and when will we see a working solution to combat crime in our farming communities?

Whilst speaking of Mpumalanga, let me highlight another problem that is sorely hampering effective work in that province, my province. I am referring to the moving of the SAPS provincial headquarters from Middelburg to Nelspruit. This move must, of course, be supported from the point of view of having the SAPS head office in the capital of the province, but then better forward planning would have been expected from the department.

When you move a head office, you make sure that you don't have debt that you leave behind. You make sure that plans are made in the new quarters where the head offices will be housed, and you make sure that everything is in place. My information is that the offices that were occupied in Middelburg have long leases, and they are now standing empty. In one instance, a new building was built with a 21-year lease secured by the SAPS, but it is now standing empty while some of the police officers in Nelspruit are working from the corridors of the offices. Estate agents tell me that they are inundated by calls from SAPS officials asking for accommodation somewhere in Nelspruit.

Let me conclude by going back to the problem of rural security and refer you to – and I hope that the Minister has actually studied and read what I will refer to now before he embarked on his own measures - the strategy of the DA, as outlined by our leader, Premier Helen Zille on 6 April 2010. In that delivery, she emphasised strategies that we proposed. You see, that is the normal reaction, but the ANC continually says that people should not criticise but come up with plans. When I put the plan on the table, a senior officer of the ANC laughs. [Laughter.]

However - Minister, I hope that you are listening - the measures that we ask you to introduce - and please give me a minute - are measures to strengthen stressed sector policing in the rural areas; the establishment of a specialised border and rural safety division; the establishment of rural intelligence centres; the facilitation of sufficient resources for SAPS stations; rural safety initiatives; and the creation of the posts of divisional commissioners to co-ordinate and lead these structures.

Time constraints have stopped me from going into the details of these, but it is available for anybody to study. After all, as I said, we are not here to criticise only; we offer a solution. I hope you have read it, Minister. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M W MAKHUBELA

Mr A WATSON

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, I would like to start with the smart policing strategy. Police strategy and management have to answer serious challenges. Through smart policing, the department can achieve improved crime control, better service delivery, and cost effectiveness. "Smart policing" refers to policing that is strategically managed, analysed, researched, and technology-based.

To begin with, police must do two things: to protect and to have a relationship with the public. The public must also do the same thing. It is not only the police that must have a relationship with the public. In order to achieve this smart policing, the following programmes are proposed: a new style of community policing, hot-spot policing, problem-oriented policing, and crime mapping. In the United States of America, USA, they are already ahead of us.

We need to protect the local communities from crime and violence. This has to begin with housing infrastructure. The concept of cohousing must seriously be considered by the department. Our government must also create a fusion centre where intelligence, information and data are given in order to solve crimes.

Let us come to Home Affairs and the issue of corruption. We need to have a project. We should have the police there, five or six officers, because when officials see them, they won't commit this type of corruption. Furthermore, education should be seen as a lifelong learning activity for police officers. It must strengthen the police, time and again.

Posts are not filled, as you have said, Minister. If you cannot get a suitable person, just hire a person on contract as this will keep the work of the police going. Minister, I would like to congratulate you on the preparations for the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup. I call the National Commissioner General Squeeze. We want him to squeeze all the crime from the cocoons and caves so that these criminals come out and be arrested. [Applause.]

This past Sunday, I saw the television programme Duty Calls. That programme, Minister, is fantastic. It must go right around the country, as they are doing, and the presenter ...

Afrikaans:

... is tweetalig. Sy kan Afrikaans uitstekend praat. Hou aan, Minister. Ons sê baie dankie daarvoor. [Applous.] [... is bilingual. She speaks excellent Afrikaans. Keep it up, Minister. We thank for you for it.]

English:

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Who is out of order? There is no person speaking.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, it's a point of order. I want the Minister to tell me what he gave this general. Maybe there is something. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, that's not a point of order. Take your seat, hon member. [Laughter.]

Mr M G WILEY

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Mr M G WILEY (Western Cape): Chairperson of the NCOP, I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I'm delivering this speech on behalf of MEC Lennit Max who is, unfortunately, with the premier this afternoon. He has asked me to come and speak to you instead.

Hon Minister, Deputy Minister of Police, hon MECs, hon members of the NCOP, and members of the SAPS – I don't see too many of them here - I want, from the outset, to congratulate the Minister on the standard of the readiness parade held in Cape Town recently. As any red-blooded South African, we were all very proud to see both the person power and resources that were on display. We wish you and all members in uniform the best for the very onerous task they are going to have next month in keeping both the citizens and the visitors to South Africa safe during the World Cup. You have our greatest support in that regard.

Recently, Minister, you focused on employing the right kind of police officer, a different kind of police officer in the SAPS. The hon Minister said, and I quote:

In order to fight crime and fight it effectively, we need to recruit the right calibre of police officer. Whilst fitness and the ability to operate firearms are some of the essentials, it is discipline, upholding the Constitution, defending the weak, enforcing the law and being generally upright that should constitute the defining core values of a police officer.

I concur wholeheartedly in this regard, and would like to applaud the Minister for taking this particularly strong view. It is indeed true that we need men and women in the Police Service, who are proud to wear the blue uniform and are willing to serve the people of South Africa, irrespective of their rank and stature.

However, the process of appointing, reappointing and promoting police officers is largely a closed one, which only the national head of police is privileged to perform. I wish to propose that the provincial MECs and other important stakeholders in the safety, security and justice cluster be granted some, even if limited, say in this process. This will ensure that fit-for-purpose appointments and promotions, across the board, will be embraced in the SAPS to further ensure the efficient and effective functioning thereof, especially in the provinces where they have to serve.

The hon Minister has also indicated that discipline will be reignited in the force. This is of critical importance, as ill-discipline is rife within the SAPS, especially among junior officers. It is exactly here where a major challenge lies for management as the majority of South African citizens will ever come into contact with a junior office at a community service centre and while patrolling our streets. It is exactly these first contacts within the Police Service that must have the most discipline to render a helpful and friendly service to citizens even though they sometimes do not deserve it. First impressions count.

Discipline at the lowest levels of the Police Service must me reignited and restored, rightly so, to its former state in order to deliver the kind of service that our people are mandated to uphold in the Constitution of our country. It is at the training academies that the greatest effort in quality and professionalism must be made, as those academies are where the foundation for our officers' future careers is laid.

The SAPS needs more resources, especially infrastructure. Nearly 16 years into our new democratic dispensation, people still walk long distances to their nearest police stations. In a particular case, a woman was recently raped on her way to the police station to report a rape crime which had just happened to her. This situation is truly unacceptable. We need more satellite stations and more contact points in South Africa, especially in the Western Cape.

I'm particularly shocked to hear that the SAPS spent over R2 billion in the last two years to build just three police stations and to upgrade only six. In Ocean View, which is one of my areas of responsibility, they have had, for the last 18 years, a temporary police station where the 13 store is so overcrowded that it is impossible to catalogue the evidence, and the door cannot open more that half a metre.

Speaking of buildings, it is simply a disgrace that residences for SAPS personnel such as Parkhof in Kenilworth have been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that the Cape Town City Council may well condemn the building totally. One realises that maintenance is a Department of Public Works' function, but as an employer, the SAPS should not be standing idly by while its personnel are effectively living in squatter conditions, for which they also have to pay on a monthly basis. The state cannot afford to become a slumlord.

Also of a concern is the formula used to inform the manpower plan at police stations. Does it keep step with the population increase? I use as an example the Hout Bay Police Station where the 2001 census was used as a benchmark for the policing plan. The population since then has almost tripled, and yet the station is still at a level at which it was when it was refurbished just after 2001.

Another issue of great concern is the current status of the forensic science laboratory services in South Africa. A report by the Auditor-General completed in November 2009 blamed a lack of staff; low staff morale and, I quote, "a total disregard for occupational safety laws"; and a lack of backup power resulting in spoilt samples for backlogs of several years that set back the fight against crime. The report found that in August 2009, the backlog in routine toxicology cases in Johannesburg stretched back six years, five years in Cape Town and four years in Pretoria.

Much like the controversy surrounding accurate figures and crime statistics, we have no clear picture of the true figure of outstanding cases amounting in a massive backlog for forensic science laboratories. The official figures are somewhere in the region of 12 000. However, some reports suggest that in the Western Cape alone, this backlog may be 18 000 cases. Whichever of these figures are true, whether the former or the latter, it is far too much and truly a crisis situation.

The hon Minister announced that the FSL had decreased their backlog in the 2008-09 financial year by 14%, and is planning to decrease the backlog by a further 20% this financial year. This is good, but too little. We must understand that these backlogs have a severely negative impact on the whole criminal justice cluster, as well as the broader public morale. These laboratories play a pivotal role in the linking of perpetrators to crime scenes. When forensic labs face protracted delays, this actively hampers police investigations; delays court cases; and, in turn, disrupts the effective operation of the criminal justice system.

Victims, especially those of violent sexual crimes, are entitled to feel that the state will do all in its power to catch the perpetrator, and also to reassure them that this particular category is taken seriously trough efficient and quick processing of evidence. A question should be asked: Why must victims live in fear for years because the state is dragging its feet and lets the dangerous accused out on bail?

This matter has an especially detrimental effect here in the Western Cape where drugs and gangs go hand in hand. This is more prevalent in this province than anywhere else in the country. The successful prosecution of drug related cases is solely dependent on evidence proven by forensic science laboratories. Without the effective and efficient functioning of this critical service, the massive challenge posed by drugs in the Western Cape will never be successfully combated. Cases get postponed and eventually thrown out because of a lack of evidence. Therein lies the truism: Justice delayed is justice denied.

In conclusion, the South African criminal justice system is, in fact, in a crisis. The police play a role in that regard. It is characterised by blockages, many of which cause delays in other parts of the criminal justice pipeline. The system, stretching across the departments of Safety and Security, Justice and Correctional Services has never been a unified one. I would suggest that, in your tenure, one of your single most successful benchmarks should be to try and unify those three departments. The links between the various departments are weak, and the involvement in any other departments such as Social Development, Education and Health, which have to play a key role in the prevention of crime, is minimised as a result of this logjam.

The SAPS, as well as the South African justice system need to have a serious rethink in this regard. The game needs to be stepped up, and service delivery must be improved if we want to give effect to the vision of the President of this country, namely to make South Africa a better, happier and safer place to live in. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr G WILEY (Western Cape)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, Minister of Police, Nathi Mthethwa, chairperson of the select committee, Mr Mofokeng, hon members, SAPS management and the staff in the Ministry of Police, in the past few weeks the SAPS has been engaged in simulation activities throughout the country. These activities were meant to showcase to South Africa and the world at large the preparedness of the Police Service to serve and service the country with regard to curbing any eventualities that might arise during the Fifa 2010 World Cup. Plans were submitted by all provinces to the national office. These plans outlined, with all attention to detail, how South Africa will guarantee a safer World Cup.

We want to assure the country and the world that we are ready for the World Cup. Soccer fans should just bring out the swagger in their supporters' colours; get their vuvuzelas; and rehearse their diski dance for this august and spectacular event.

We are an activist government dedicated to action and not rhetoric. As the hon President has said, 2010 is the year of working together to speed up effective service delivery to the people. As the SAPS, we are saying that together we can do more in the fight against crime. The time to kiss, hug and massage crime lapsed last year; a new cadre police officer has taken over.

Our message to criminals who have turned themselves into illustrious warriors of our time is that, like the mighty Napoleon finally met his defeat, they too are about to meet their Waterloo. We have arrived in full steam to clean criminals off our streets and malls, and instil fear in their hearts and minds. This is dedicated by the nature of crime we witnessed in the previous years, specifically in 2006. It was so lethally dangerous and aggravating to an extent that it resulted in a call by some members of society that military intervention is actually required. We then said that we need to sharpen our instruments.

Washa Tsotsi is a clarion call to action - an action to dig out a tsotsi from his hiding hole and channel him to prison where he rightfully belongs. It is a clarion call to tsotsis to wet their pants before they attempt anything. Throughout last year, we spoke and made commitments to the nation that we will sharpen and strengthen any legislative loopholes to rid ourselves of traitors against goodwill in the society.

We did say that the ICD should bite; the secretariat should assume shape and the Criminal Procedure Act should be attended to; and a single Police Force should be ushered in to operate under one command. We expressed our unrelenting commitment to realise a safe country where children are able to play and live a clean life without fear of rape or molestation - a country where women are free to walk at anytime of the day and night without fear or abuse. For these reason, the police should be empowered to fight for the weaker within our society. That is why we say asijiki [we are unrelenting] - forward we go, backward never.

If we are to win this battle, we will need policemen and -women who can flank crime and crush it like eggs. The kind of policemen and ‑women we had needed some serious attention to ensure that we are equal to the task. We needed personnel with integrity and a cadre police officer who'll deliver us from tsotsis. From the 2006 crime backdrop, we invaded the crime space with the ferocity of a cornered bull and the agility of a cat. In this offensive, we were mindful of existing laws governing our country that needed our careful observation while executing our task.

Crime is not a friend of a man or a woman, but an enemy of life. Currently, South Africa has fared well in terms of crime reduction. This has been showcased by successful operations, especially during the peak period of the 2009 festive season.

Minister and hon members, credits should be given where it is due. I am humbled to stand here today and congratulate the efforts employed during the 2009 festive season launch of Operation Duty Calls. The police embarked on various visible policing operations countrywide, interacted with communities, business and various organised structures with an objective of intensifying our fight against crime. During this period, we witnessed and experienced a significant decline in various crimes, including cash-in-transit armed robberies, housebreaking and, particularly, business robberies. When we started with our operations, our message to these gun-totting criminals was clear.

The former President, Nelson Mandela, on the occasion of his inauguration said:

A person who does what any other person does is an ordinary person. A person who does what no other person can do is an exception. But a person who has done what no other person has ever done is an institution, a national asset and a hero. This is a person whom when he or she dies, we will be able to say: Here lies a man or woman who has played his or her role in the society.

This quote is befitting today because we want national heroes and heroines. We want national assets and institutions in our country in the fight against crime. We need a cadre in the fight against crime. We are, therefore, saying to all members of the society: Stand up and be counted in the fight against crime.

Vital tools that support the implementation of the crime prevention strategies include sector policing, reservists and community policing forums. These tools assist in the monitoring and assessment of the police officer. We are in the process to also assist with the issue of redefining and remodeling the role of community policing forums, where there will have less of being tea ladies and "stuur boys" at the police stations. This will result, among others, in a national consensus on structural and operational outlook of these community police forums, including their relations with the provincial governments and other stakeholders in the fight against crime. It will do away with inconsistencies and departures from the norm as it is currently the case in the Western Cape.

A national task team was established during the reservists' summit to consider employment related matters and facilitate the recruitment of qualifying reservists as permanent employees of the SAPS. Recruitment drives were conducted in all nine provinces and a total of 2 733 reservists were recruited as SAPS members and 532 were recruited as the Public Service Act requires.

There are, however, some unbecoming expectations harboured by some who failed to meet the minimum requirements. They are now trying to turn this process into a pass-one, pass-all scenario. Our voice in this regard, has consistently been loud and clear that every reservist will be recruited into the SAPS based on merit and full compliance with the stipulated criteria.

The tactical response teams exist in cluster police stations, as well as in the international airports. Currently, there are 711 members trained and deployed in various clusters and airports. They have also shown their presence in high crime spots, especially at shopping malls where these criminals have been mercilessly opening fire and killing innocent people.

This necessitated an urgent attention informed by the fact that 70% of aggravated robberies are committed with firearms or firearms become the weapons of choice. We then adopted a comprehensive strategy to address the circulation and easy availability of firearms and ammunition. It is also thanks to the support given to the police by Parliament last year by declaring the period from 11 January 2010 to 11 April 2010 a firearms amnesty period. Parliament did this through the constitutional powers vested and accorded to the Minister of Police.

South Africa has a significant pool of illegal firearms in circulation. These illegal firearms contribute to the high rate of serious and violent crime. The sources of these illegal firearms range from stolen firearms from members of the public to the illegally smuggled into the country through our borders. A lot was achieved during this process with members of the community voluntarily surrendering for destruction their licensed firearms through the process prescribed in the Firearms Control Regulation. F Furthermore, the process also assisted in allowing those who missed the cut-off date for relicensing to license their weapons in terms of the Firearms Control Act.

We are encouraged and happy that 46 262 weapons were received through our police stations as a result of the amnesty period. A total of 12 179 of this number were illegal, and 27 119 were legal firearms voluntarily surrendered. During this period again, 6 964 were confiscated by the police.

It should also be noted that some in the society we live in had negative sentiments about this amnesty process. They even went on to encourage people not to heed the call. Unfortunately for them, South Africans are responsible and cannot be dragged backed by those with evil intention of encouraging a society wherein a person wields a gun unnecessary. Our people have responded positively to this campaign by enriching it through their participation throughout the stipulated period. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Prince M M M ZULU

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE

IsiZulu:

Umntwana M M M ZULU: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe nePhini lakho, ozakwethu amalungu aleNdlu, abasebenzi bomnyango wezokuphepha kulelizwe abakhona, ngiyanibingelela.

Sihlalo, umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe nozakwabo kufuneka bazi ukuthi umbutho wamaphoyisa yiwona ovikela ubugebengu ezweni kanye nodlame olusuke lubhekiswe kwizakhamuzi zakulelozwe. Ngiyabancoma ukuthi babhekene nomsebenzi omkhulu wokuphepha kwabo bonke abantu ezweni, izimpahla zomphakathi, kanye nayo yonke imingcele yezwe lethu.

Siyi-IFP siyababongela odadewethu ababuthwe njengamaphoyisa alelizwe, nabafowethu abakhona embuthweni ngokwenza umsebenzi wokuphepha kulelizwe uphumelele. Kunezinto ezithile engithanda ukuzibeka mhlonishwa ukuthi amaphoyisa awekho phezu komthetho, nawo aphethwe umthethosisekelo wezwe.

Into eyenzeke laphaya ekhaya kwaNongoma, lapho kwahlaselwa khona abantu nabafazi babantu bahanjiswa nqunu emagcekeni. Lokho kwenzeke nakumina uqobo, emzini kababomkhulu - iNkosi yasoSuthu uMangobe - ingonyama yezwe lamaZulu. Lapho bangikhipha khona, ngahamba nqunu. Lokho kuyinto engamukelekile ezweni ukuthi amaphoyisa aziphathe ngalolo hlobo. Ngathi uma ngiya kumphathi siteshi wathi akawaphethe, nawo uma ngikhuluma nawo athi awaphethwe nguyena, aphethwe ePitoli.

Ngithi-ke kufuneka nikubheke ukuthi uma singumbutho owodwa wamaphoyisa onoNgqongqoshe oyedwa noSekela Ngqongqoshe oyedwa, kodwa sibe nezinkinga zokuthi laba bantu bangalawuleki. Umnyango wakho kufuneka ukubheke ukuthi ngabe labo bantu bangabantu abafanele yini ukugada ukuphepha ezweni ngoba ngibona benezinhloso zabo.

Ngithi ukuziphatha yinto okufanele ibekhona emaphoyiseni, kanti nathi singumphakathi kufanele sisebenzisane ngokubambisana nawo amaphoyisa ekulweni nodlame. Okunye engiye ngikubuke ukuthi njengoba kuthiwa akudutshulwe bese kubuzwa imibuzo kamumva, yinto ezingayenza izigebengu ezifana nalezo ezingenamabheji, nezimoto ezihamba ngazo ezingenalutho, zigqekeze amagede abantu, bangena endlini.

Ngiyazi ukuthi ngeke ngisikhiphe isibhamu bengenzanga izinhlelo ezithile zokuthi ngisikhiphe. Kodwa akufanele siphindwe ngehlazo lokuhamba nqunu ngoba singeke sikwazi ukuzivikela. Lokho kuhlokoloza umphakathi, ngoba ngiyafisa ukuthi umphakathi ubambisane namaphoyisa.

Ngifisa ukuncoma ukuthi laphaya ngakithi kunezigebengu ezibamba inkunzi ematekisini - niphezu kwazo impela. Lokho enikwenzayo kungumsebenzi omkhulu ngoba lezi zigebengu kufanele ziqoqwe ziye endaweni yazo, ngoba akuzifanele ukuhlala nabantu. Ngoba, uma singavikela abantu abafana nalabo ngabe senza into embi kabi. Lokhu angikusho ngoba ngiseqenjini elithize, kodwa ngikusho ngoba noMntwana uZeblon Zulu kuleyandlu enye, angakutshela ukuthi yizinto ezenzekayo kwaNongoma lezi.

English:

On behalf of the IFP, we fully support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr B NESI

Prince M M M ZULU

Mr B NESI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, departmental officials, patriots and friends, the national struggle for freedom was the critical overarching vehicle to bring about peace, security and stability in our society. In dealing with issues of crime, the ANC proceeds from the premise that raising the quality of life also means improvement in the safety and security of citizens in their homes and in their environments where they live, work and engage in extramural activities.

The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster has been tasked with the outcome of ensuring that people are safe and feel safe, with the Department of Police playing a leading role in this regard. The ANC welcomes the FCS units which the Minister has announced. These interventions by the department seek to address three principles which are critical in the challenge of crime, especially its uniquely random and violent nature in our country.

The first of these principles is that the battle against crime cannot be separated from the war against want. In the main, incidents of contact crime such as murder, grievous bodily harm and rape occur among acquaintances in poor communities where living and entertainment environments do not allow for decent family and social life.

The second one is that specific mindsets and historical conditions drive elements of the crime problem. These are: the proliferation of firearms in the hands of civilians; greed and conspicuous consumption; the psychology of patriarchal gender power relations; and attitudes towards the weaker members of society, especially children. With regard to this point, I want to emphasise that these crimes against the weak are rife in the rural areas and farm areas where ...

IsiXhosa:

... abantu bakuthi besabethwa ngamabhulu anocalucalulo ngobuhlanga nazimisele ukuba wona akuhlala engoobholel' ecaleni abangalufuniyo utshintsho.

English:

In this regard, when we are talking about fighting crime, Minister and Deputy Minister, we must also emphasise ...

IsiXhosa:

... ukuba babanjwe aba belungu benza le nto. Into eyenzekayo kukuba bahlawuliswa iimalana ezingama-R200 okanye ama-R2000 babe ngabakhululekileyo kodwa bahlalise abantu bakuthi kabuhlungu.

English:

The ANC notes with interest the consistency of the department in improving its capacity by employing more personnel as this will boast the visible policing programme in so far as the patrols and community policing are concerned.

In addition to visible policing aimed at crime prevention, provision has been made in the budget to increase the detective capacity and improve crime intelligence capacity. This will ensure the safety of the weak and the rural communities. The above confirms the implementation of the President's promise in the state of the nation address that more police will be employed in 2010.

The third one is that the networks of crime have grown in their reach and sophistication across national boundaries. These include syndicates that deal with money-laundering, human-trafficking and abuse. Critically, focus must be placed in mobilising society to make life difficult for criminals in our midst. This should include an overhaul of gender and family relations and intolerance of abuse within communities.

The transformation of institutions that deal with crime, including integrated efficiency, is also critical. This applies to management, expansion of personnel, utilisation of latest technology, enhanced intelligence capacity, and commitment to work with the people. In this regard, it is very important for the police and the community to ensure that community safety forums are in existence because police will never fight the crime alone. Community members must be there to assist the police by telling them where the criminals are, Furthermore, community members must assist the police in the eradication of corruption within the criminal justice system.

The overall programme of national democratic transformation will gradually eliminate some of the conditions that breed social crime; so shall our contribution to creating an environment of peace, stability, economic growth and social development in Southern Africa and the rest of the continent.

In conclusion, we will undertake these tasks conscious of our responsibility as one of the battalions of the global army for progressive social change. As a disciplined force of the left, the ANC is confident that South Africans will persist in building and enduring national partnerships to further change our country for the better. Working together with them, we shall spare neither strength nor courage until the strategic objective has been attained. The ANC supports this transformative budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J J GUNDA

Mr B NESI

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, and all protocols observed. We welcome the vision and mission of our Department of Police. The values that SAPS stands for need to be implemented and upheld.

Discipline and professionalism need to be instilled in our police. There is a programme in the Northern Cape called "Youth against Crime". If that programme can be implemented throughout this country, I think the police can win the war against crime. Hon Minister and Deputy Minister, I see that you are reminding us of where we come from by revisiting the ranking system. However, changing ranking names will not bring back discipline. Discipline will take a change in thinking and a change in attitude in SAPS. That is what will make their work easier.

The ID believes in partnership with the community because the challenges are enormous. The behaviour of some of the SAPS members is uncalled for. The way in which they drive the vehicles is unacceptable. The way they treat people in some police stations is unacceptable.

It is good to have an important plan. It is good to say we are going to do this; we are going to do that. We also see that the Minister and the Deputy Minister are trying their utmost best, but it needs to be said today that winning against crime will help us develop the economy. Winning the battle against crime will help our people understand that the values that we grew up with were anticorruption. However, there is so much corruption in the Department of Police.

If we can win that battle, half of the crime will be finished. The budget that is used for community police forums is inadequate. If we want the community and the community police forums to really participate in the fight against crime and all else, we need to budget properly for them in order to assist them to do away with crime. I thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr M H MABILO (Northern Cape):

Mr J J GUNDA:

Mr M H MABILO (Northern Cape): Hon Deputy Chairperson, Minister of Police, Mr Nathi Mthethwa, hon Deputy Minister of Police, Mr Fikile Mbalula, hon members of the House, chairperson of the select committee, Ntate Mofokeng, colleagues from other provinces, we are tasked with the responsibility to ensure that crime is drastically reduced, and corruption is stamped out in the province.

Our successes in the fight against crime in the province are as follows. We managed, through our processes, to conduct a number of campaigns and activities. We managed to search a number of businesses, motor vehicles and business properties to the tune of 38 426. We also conducted more than 470 roadblocks and succeeded in visiting a number of farms, businesses, elderly people, vacant houses and schools.

Furthermore, we successfully patrolled with our vehicles and on foot more than 25 171 times; arrested a number of people for various crimes during the operation Washa Tsotsi; and confiscated a substantial quantity of dagga and other substances. We further confiscated more than 91 800 litres of liquor and a number of home‑brewed stuff. Through operation Washa Tsotsi, we also arrested a number of wanted criminals. During the firearms amnesty period, we succeeded to hand over a number of weapons and sharp instruments.

In terms of the crime prevention situation in the province, our programmes prioritise sustainable community mobilisation and partnerships in the fight against crime. In support of the police's efforts to reduce crime in the Northern Cape, we have a campaign that we call the "Rescue of Public Spaces".

Most violent crimes in the province happen in isolated and bushy areas near taverns. It is in that view that we have engaged municipalities in the province to come on board and assist in the cleaning operations of open spaces. One of the flagship projects of the department of safety in the province is the "Rescue of Public Spaces" project, which has recently won a silver award in the Premier's Service Excellence Awards.

Our province was honoured with the responsibility to host the 2010 Fifa World Cup 50 days countdown. We are proud to report that this prestigious event was incident-free. This was due to the safety and security measures put in place by the SAPS in the province.

During the period under review, the province successfully established 54 victim-friendly facilities out of a total of 91 police stations. It is our responsibility to ensure that, before the end of this financial year, all the 91 police stations in the province will have victim-friendly facilities.

The "Safer Schools" campaign is meant to ensure that our schools remain institutions of learning and excellence. During this campaign we managed to confiscate drugs, alcohol and dangerous weapons at schools across the province. This campaign is successful as fewer schools are now reported to have these unwanted substances.

In terms of community partnerships, the Northern Cape province is having successful community partnerships. We have a sound working relationship with communities in our province. Our people are very co-operative and supportive of campaigns and initiatives of the government to fight crime and corruption. We have got strong partnership with the SAPS, the community police forums, youth against crime, women against crime, and all other relevant structures meant to fight crime in the province.

Regarding gangsterism, hijackings and ATM bombings, as a province we have successfully managed to foil a number of attempts relating to hijacking and ATM bombings in the city of Kimberly. These criminal activities are very scarce in our province. It is for that reason that when criminals are squeezed elsewhere they then move base to the Northern Cape under the wrong impression that that province is a soft target. Our law enforcement officers have proven the criminals wrong through their tough anticrime programmes; hence the high success rate, the minimal hijackings, as well as the ATM bombings in the province.

As a department, we acknowledge the fact that we lack in resources such as vehicles and personnel in the province. However, we are really working hard to ensure that we close all gaps that may hinder the achievement of our objectives of reducing crime and corruption in the province.

The matter of closed-circuit television in the two townships of the city comes a long way. The SAPS head office has made commitments to provide the aforementioned equipment in both Galeshewe and Roodepan. This will assist us in our fight against crime and corruption. It will also contribute positively towards effecting more arrests. These cameras will assist us and ensure that we succeed in our objectives.

In the perpetration of most violent crimes in the province - especially crimes that take place over weekends, such as rape, murder, robbery and domestic violence - the weapon of choice of most criminals is the dangerous weapon known as the Okapi. The department, in collaboration with the SAPS, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Chief State Law Advisor in the Office of the Premier have already commenced a process aimed at the development of a provincial legislation to regulate or outlaw the carrying of dangerous knives and other related weapons. We hope to introduce the draft Bill to the legislature of the province during the fourth quarter of this financial year.

Gravel roads remain a challenge in the province as police vehicles are adversely affected in terms of wear and tear. This area must be looked into in relation to the massive infrastructural development needs of the province and its rural nature. Our province is vast and sparsely populated, and most people have to travel for more than 100 km to access a police station. Hence we have ensured that these areas are provided with satellite police stations in the context of Batho Pele.

This concept of a central command structure will contribute immensely towards our fight against crime and corruption. We strongly recommend that it be rolled out in the province before the end of this year.

Building and renovation of police stations in the province is a serious challenge since most buildings utilised by the police are in a bad state. The Mothibistad police station in Kuruman, which services more than 20 villages, is totally dilapidated and a new police station is required in this regard. The second biggest township in the province, Paballelo in Upington also requires a new police station to service the community. The current building where the police are operating from belongs to the Khara Hais Local Municipality. The municipality has given notice that it wants to take its office back, and this poses a serious challenge to our law enforcement agency in the area.

Paballelo, as the second biggest township in the province, also requires the services of a new police station. Our priority for ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M H MOKGOBI

Mr M H MABILO (Northern Cape)

Mr M H MOKGOBI: Hon Chair, our Minister, Nathi Mthethwa, our Deputy Minister, Fikile Mbalula, and hon House, let me remind you that the Budget Vote of the department is the budget vote of the ANC. Therefore, when the Minister talks of objectives as set out by the state of the nation address, and target measurements and performance as adopted by the Cabinet lekgotla, that is, indeed, a confirmation of the movement at work to reduce crime in this country.

The other issue that we picked up in the budget debate as presented is that the country is moving towards safety after so many years of violent society. We are moving towards safety, and the people are beginning to have confidence much better than in the previous years. We want to congratulate the Minister in this regard.

Crimes like house robbery, business robbery, car hijacking as well as crime against woman and children - issues that are highly prioritised in the departmental programme - are beginning to decrease in terms of statistics. This is because of the manner in which the department has injected investigative capacity of police officers in this department. Furthermore, the detectives are also beginning to have that positive attitude that the department has injected in them.

We would also want to welcome the reintroduction of the FCS unit by the Minister. As the Deputy Minister said, this will go far beyond the realisation of a country where everyone can play - especially our children - without fear of anything; without fear of being abducted. And that should be supported.

We also acknowledge the programme of visible policing. However, as a committee we recommend that it should go beyond visible policing. We should not just see cars moving from street to street, from township to township, or village to village; we should see more that. The police must stop and check what is happening when some group of people is playing dice or jiving unnecessarily. They should check. The police should also go beyond that and detect the planning of crime before it is committed so that criminals would hesitate to engage in crime activities amongst our people. We would like to see that happening.

Indeed, everyone can see that police vans are patrolling everywhere. However, it should go beyond that. There should be fundamental actions that engage people in planning, even to smell where crooks are hidden in planning so that the preventive capacity is activated.

The other issues that the ANC would like to call upon everyone not to forget is that all that we are doing as this democratic Parliament is to erase and fight what has been institutionalised by apartheid legacy - a very violent and brutal police system. Even now, after 16 years of democracy, people are still afraid of the police in the context of the past.

However, we would like to ensure that the police are friendly to the people because other liberal minds would always - in the media and everywhere - say the police are beginning to be dangerous and militarised. There is no such a thing. When the police respond to a deadly crime, that does not mean militarisation; it means that the police have got the capacity to respond to any form of crime in this country. Therefore, that type of thinking must be taken out of some liberal minds.

The other issue is the fact that the department is responding to its constitutional obligations, namely prevention, combating, investigation and making sure that the Republic is protected at all costs. Furthermore, we would also like to appeal to the Minister regarding the issue of the terror plot which is captured in our headlines because next month we are going to host the World Cup. There are counter-revolutionaries who want to frighten the world by saying there is an Al-Qaeda. There is no such a thing.

Our Intelligence is intact, and our police are ready. The world must come. South Africa is heaven and it will still be heaven during 2010 World Cup. There is no such a thing as a threat of Al-Qaeda, Taliban or whatever. Those are pure lies. It is a counter-revolution to promote the idea that African-led governments might not have the capacity to protect people. People are welcome. Some of us will be smiling in every airport to ensure that indeed people feel safe in this country.

We also welcome the fact that our borders will be managed by the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, as well as the support systems of our intelligence services. However, we would want the department, as they meet the SANDF, to strengthen the porous borders. Indeed, our borders are not that safe because, ever since we came in, there are certain areas through which people can get in and that might be a threat. I think it should be emphasised that, as the army will be monitoring the borders, areas where there is porosity must be looked into and mechanism developed to make sure that our borders are strengthened.

The strategy and tactics of the ANC identified three things that the department needs to look into, namely the war against want, as hon Nesi has said. These are some of the issues that need to be looked into in order to prevent our people from engaging in crime activities.

The mindset, as I alluded to earlier, informs us that some of these things are historical. There is still that mindset of the past wherein people feel that when they see a police officer, they see an enemy. A police officer is a friend. However, it is not a friend that will allow people to do crime; it is a friend that will take you, if you are a criminal, to a place of safety in prison. [Laughter.] You will be safe in prison. That's what we need to emphasise.

The other thing is the historical conditions. Amen. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF POLICE

Mr M H MOKGOBI

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, thank you for your contributions. Perhaps I should say that there has been constructive criticism and some acknowledgements of good work which the police have done. I must say that I found today's debate different from the ones we have had before. When people were criticising us today, they presented some views on the table. They did not just engage in oppositionist kind of postures.

The hon Gunda presented some key issues about the discipline and professionalism in the police. There will not be any proper policing if this matter is not taken on board. This is part of the transformation that we are talking about - the police cadre which we would like to create this time.

What hon members should take note of is that, ultimately, we want our streets to be safe. As the Deputy Minister has said, whether it's in the morning, at night or whenever, all the people of our country should feel safe in their own country. That is the ultimate objective.

With regard to the issue of wrong elements within the SAPS, which was raised by the hon chairperson, we did interact with political parties in this Parliament, and the ruling party was part of that. We have undertaken an audit on the police personnel that we have so that, at the end of the day, we can ensure that those who are not supposed to be in the force are nicely asked to go home or elsewhere. This will ensure that we remain with members who know what they are supposed to do - members who understand that the hopes of the entire nation rest upon their shoulders.

The hon Watson said something about a building that is lying empty in Middleburg. We are going to make a follow-up on that and try to find out what is happening. I must say that it cuts across the issue of rural safety. There is a plan. In his debate, hon Wiley indicated that the leader of the DA has some points with regard to rural safety. We would welcome those points.

We have challenged everybody in the community to submit their views in order to strengthen the rural safety plan. If there are such views, we would welcome them. That is why, together with AgriSA and the Food and Allied Workers Union, Fawu, we will be visiting provinces very soon. These will be people from both sides - farmers and farmworkers. We would be able to put across the views of both constituencies, as it were. We believe it's through such an approach that we would be able to deal with the challenges that we face.

There are other issues which hon Wiley spoke about, such as accommodation. One of the things that we have said is that, in the building and construction of the new police stations, we have to have some barracks. This should not only be for purposes of accommodating people who are already there, but also to enable police management to relocate police officers from, for example, your constituency, hon Bloem, to KwaZulu-Natal and vice versa. Police management should be able to do that without any hindrance. We are also looking into those matters as well.

With regard to the criminal justice system, we are implementing the available outcomes of the criminal justice review. For instance, today we reported that, in as far as police are concerned, one matter which was highlighted during the review is that of the detectives. Last year, we put a target for ourselves that, within a year, we were going to employ 19% of the detectives and improve the skills of those who were already there. We have surpassed that because we have recruited 24% as compared to what we initially planned for.

I agree with hon Makhubela on the issue of smart planning, hot spots and mapping. In fact, it should be strengthened because, as you know, even from a police station point of view, the hot spots, mapping, and so on, are looked into. The programme "When duty calls" is one way of communicating with the public because all what people hear are negative things about the police. We have noted your satisfaction about the preparations, and we are also looking forward to the actual games. The hon Mokgobi raised the issue of the reintroduction of FCS units; we are going ahead with that. We will ensure that, indeed, our children and women are safe in our country.

With regard to terror threats, I'd say that some of these things are hoaxes meant to scare people away. For example, some tabloids in Britain were saying there's going to be a blood bath in South Africa because Mr Terre'Blanche has been killed. They further said that there's going to be a black and white full-scale war. They just created some imaginary wars in their minds, which did not match what has been put in place in preparation for this World Cup. That is not going to deter us.

I noted the point raised by hon Nesi when he indicated that racism is rife in the farms. When we met with Fawu, for instance, they made that point very clear. That is why we suggested approaching this matter from a point of view of all the parties, namely the workers, dwellers and farmers in order to deal with the issues they are raising.

IsiZulu :

Bab'uMageba, angazi nkosi yami kuleli phuzu obulibeka lakwaNongoma, siye sazizwa lezo zikhalo kwathi nje phambi kokhetho sawucela umphakathi ukuthi uke ufike sizoxoxisana nawo. Sabiza nezinhlangano zepolitiki, IFP yayikhona, noKhongolose kanye nabanye.

Kodwa-ke futhi asizukuvuma ukuthi abantu bahlukunyezwe, izinto ezinjalo azifuneki. Siyafisa ukuthi nani Mageba niyigcizelele into yokuthi amaphoyisa ayasebenza bo ngaphambi kokhetho! Intaphane yezibhamu esayithola laphaya Mageba yangethusa, ngacishe ngaquleka ngempela ngizibona zibekiwe ngononina ngokuhlukana kwazo. Kusukela kwesincane ukuza kwezinkulu, ngathi hhawu! Lezi bhamu madoda ziphumaphi. Zifunani izibhamu phakathi kwabantu ngoba phela yizona ekufanele zingabibikho emphakathini.

Sengisholo ukuthi ke nalapho enza khona kahle amaphoyisa kufanele siwancome bakwethu ngoba angazi ukuthi leziya zibhamu zazingaphuma nemiphefumula emingaki. Ngaze ngazibuza ukuthi ngempela ngikwaNongoma? Ngake ngaphuma kancane kuleli hholo esasikulona. Ngabuka, ngathi cha sikhona impela ekhaya. Sase siyahamba siya edolobheni sakhuluma nabantu, iningi labo Mageba lakugcizelela ukuthi amaphoyisa awabe khona, ayasiza ukuthi njengoba imimoya isuke phakeme ngaleziya zikhathi zokhetho kuyasiza ukuthi kube nokuthula.

Nokho-ke satshelwa ukuthi ukhetho lwahamba kahle, Mageba. Ngingazi-ke noma sasingatshelwa kahle yini kodwa nathi sasikhona. Lwahamba kahle ukhetho kodwa lokhu akusho ukuthi abantu abaphula umthetho asebehlukumeza umphakathi akufanele bathathelwe izinyathelo kodwa njengoba uchazile Mageba, uma phela amaphoyisa esefika kuthiwa uMageba uphethe isibhamu esikhulu, uqhwasha noma i-AK awavamisile ukufika ekhaya athi E! baba mnumzane sizocela izibhamu. Azicelwa izibhamu kanjalo, izibhamu uyazi-ke ukuthi sicelwa kanjani isibhamu, Mageba. Ngiyabonga sihlalo.[Ihlombe.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 16:03.

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