Hansard: Approppriation Bill: NCOP : Policy debate on Budget Vote No 2: Parliament
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 10 May 2010
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
TUESDAY, 11 MAY 2010
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_____
The Council met at 10:31.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
Notices of Motion
Start of Day
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mnr W F FABER: Voorsitter, by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal ek voorstel:
Dat die Raad-
(1) kennis neem dat die De Beersgroep 40% van sy werkers te Finsch-myn in die Noord-Kaap gaan afdank weens finansiële verliese en die swak ekonomiese klimaat;
(2) verder kennis neem dat ongeveer 350 werkers hierdeur beïnvloed gaan word;
(3) toegee dat, met die geweldige hoë werkloosheidsyfer in die Noord-Kaap, dit rede tot kommer is; en
(4) 'n beroep sal doen op Minister Shabangu, Minister van Mynwese, om te bepaal of die 40% besnoeiing op werknemers geregverdig is deur die redes verstrek deur De Beers.
Dankie.
Mr T D HARRIS
Mnr W F FABER
English:
Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I will move that the Council acknowledges the comments made by political analyst Justice Malala, who, on national television this week, said:
Politicians can talk until the cows come home but if they do not create an environment for jobs, then they have failed. It was therefore with approval that we heard this week that the Western Cape is creating jobs, despite the 1% rise in unemployment nationally. Figures from Statistics SA show that unemployment in the DA-run province has dropped by 1,2% between the last quarter of 2009 and the first quarter of this year. This means that jobs are on the increase in the Western Cape, while across the other eight provinces the average unemployment rate is 26%.
What is the Western Cape doing that other provinces are failing to do? Perhaps the President should ask the premiers of these provinces to visit the Western Cape and learn a few things from there.
Ms M G BOROTO
Mr T D HARRIS
Ms M G BOROTO: Chair, I hereby move without notice that the Council notes that...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, can you hold that thought? Can you hold on?
Ms M G BOROTO: Alright.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you. Hon Freddie, please proceed.
Mr F ADAMS: Chair, I hereby give notice that, at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council-
(1) notes with utter dismay new reports of manipulated and erroneous margins that determine property rates in the DA-led City of Cape Town;
(2) further notes that this rates fiasco will leave thousands of home owners paying exorbitant rates while thousands of others will score by paying low rates and costing the city hundreds of millions of rand;
(3) acknowledges that the rates fiasco is one of the many scandals of poor governance by the DA and will cost the people of the Western Cape millions of rand after the inflated cost of the Cape Town Stadium and the BRT system are combined and that, together, this has cost the province billions of rand that could have been used to complete the toilets they built without structures in Khayelitsha; and
(4) ensures that communities in the townships get better services such as roads, refuse removal, and water and sanitation.
I so move.
Mnr H B GROENEWALD
Mr F ADAMS
Afrikaans:
Mnr H B GROENEWALD:
Voorsitter, die DA wil ernstig met President Zuma simpatiseer wat dit na 'n jaar nie reggekry het om sy eie party se leierseienskapstoetse te slaag nie, maar verlam is deur sy eie populisme, swak morele leierskap en die aanstel van bondgenote in kern magsposisies sodat hulle en ook hyself ryk kan word en beskerming kan geniet. Dankie.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Groenewald, was that a motion or a notice?
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Chair, it is a motion.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): What kind of a motion? Can you unpack it?
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Chair, sorry, it is notice of a motion.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): It's a notice? Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the Council-
(1) notes that the Transvaal Agricultural Union and the National Water Forum laid criminal charges against Minister Bulelwa Sonjica, Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, Tina Joemat-Pettersson, Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, and Susan Shabangu, Minister of Mineral Resources, for alleged failure to protect South Africa's rivers from pollution;
(2) also notes that these two organisations said that they wrote numerous letters and requests to the three Ministers without any productive responses to alleviate or address the problem;
(3) further notes that, if this is true, then it is unacceptable that these three Ministers act in such a manner, because they are the public's servants and have the power to address the problem;
(4) acknowledges that the Ministers are also responsible for the waste of taxpayers' money if the case goes to court; and
(5) requests the three Ministers to set up a consultative meeting with the two organisations to address the problem and to stop the legal actions taken by them.
I so move.
MOTIONS_WITHOUT_NOTICE
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
THE PASSING AWAY OF MRS SHEENA DUNCAN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M G BOROTO: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the great sense of loss at the death of the veteran human rights activist and antiapartheid campaigner, Mrs Sheena Duncan, who sadly passed away on 4 May 2010 at the age of 78, after a long illness;
(2) further notes that Sheena Duncan was a distinguished South African and an unrelenting activist who fought for justice and the pursuit of human rights for all in South Africa;
(3) takes this opportunity to pass its profound heartfelt condolences to the Duncan family, especially her sister, Her Excellency Sheila Camerer, who is South Africa's ambassador to Bulgaria, as well as relatives and friends; and
(4) hopes that they find solace in the contribution she has made in the struggle for a nonsexist, just and democratic South Africa.
May her soul rest in peace.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M W MAKGATE
Ms M G BOROTO
2010 FIFA SOCCER WORLD CUP
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M W MAKGATE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that today marks 30 days before the official kickoff of the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup;
(2) expresses its inordinate sense of pride and humility that the people of the world are visiting the shores of our beautiful land;
(3) acknowledges that this important milestone will not, by any means, deter those who continue to peddle a sense of global fear by citing fears of crime, insecurity and an uncertain political climate;
(4) takes this opportunity to say to the world, we are ready to show you that we are a nation filled with pride, hope, aspiration and determination;
(5) calls on South Africans to blow their vuvuzelas and fly our national flag to rally behind our national team, Bafana Bafana, and to display our great spirit of Ubuntu and humility as we host our international guests; and
(6) expresses its profound appreciation to our outstanding compatriots who continue to spend sleepless nights working tirelessly to make sure that this remains the best ever soccer World Cup.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr A WATSON
Ms M W MAKGATE
SUPER 14 INTERNATIONAL RUGBY SERIES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A WATSON: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes the success of this season's Super 14 International Rugby Series, now rapidly heading to an end and congratulates the teams at the head of the log;
(2) furthermore congratulates the mighty Bulls team, in particular, for being so far ahead of the other teams that they have already secured a home semifinal;
(3) more importantly notes that they have chosen the Orlando Stadium in Soweto for the first semifinal and trusts that the outcome will be such that the final will also be played in Soweto; and
(4) acknowledges that this will not only be a welcome addition to the forthcoming soccer world series, but will add immensely to the mage of our rainbow nation and the place of the game of rugby in it.
I so move. [Applause.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr D D GAMEDE
Mr A WATSON
WISHING MR L P M NZIMANDE A SPEEDY RECOVERY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D D GAMEDE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
(1) notes that the hon Mr L P M Nzimande, whip of the KwaZulu-Natal delegation, has been hospitalized since Friday; and
(2) takes this opportunity to wish him a speedy recovery and good health.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr A LEES
Mr D D GAMEDE
CONGRATULATING THE AMAZULU SOCCER TEAM AND THE SHARKS RUBGY TEAM ON THEIR FINE PERFORMANCES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A LEES: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the well-deserved 2-1 quarterfinal win of the AmaZulu soccer team over Pretoria University at the Harry Gwala Stadium on Saturday, 9 May 2010;
(2) therefore congratulates AmaZulu on their fine performance and wishes them well for the Nedbank Cup semifinals;
(3) further notes the excellent play of the Sharks rugby team on Saturday, 9 May 2010, when they trounced the Stormers 20-14 at Kings Park; and
(4) congratulates John Smit and his team for an outstanding performance despite having already been knocked out of the Super 14 tournament.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Mr A LEES
THE SITUATION ON THE N1 AND N14 HIGHWAYS IN THE PRETORIA AREA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with concern the ongoing situation on the N1 and N14 highways in the Pretoria, Midrand area;
(2) notes that criminals throw stones from bridges onto cars passing by on the highway, causing innocent people serious injury and the loss of lives; and
(3) calls for an immediate investigation into this ongoing matter.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms B P MABE
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Ms B P MABE: Deputy Chairperson, I move that this Council notes the callous and blatant acts of public violence displayed by disgruntled members of the flagging Cope as they threw chairs and exchanged blows after a lengthy disagreement over credentials during the party's Gauteng provincial congress in Vereeniging.
I further note that five people sustained various degrees of injuries and senior party members were forced through the windows of the Assemblies of God hall, as party members engaged in a rat-chasing exercise of the current party leader Mbazima Shilowa, who was booed off the podium when he tried to address the delegates. Ag shame!
I acknowledge that these are some of the last tricks of the party as it battles rowdy and disgruntled political cowboys that left the ANC for selfish political gains. I so move.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): The motion is agreed to... Just hold on. Hon Harris?
Mr T D HARRIS: Madam Deputy Chair, my hand was up.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Harris...
Mr T D HARRIS: Madam Deputy Chair, my hand was up when you asked for an objection.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Yes. Hon Harris, what is it?
Mr T D HARRIS: Chair, you asked whether there were any objections, and I believe you did not see that my hand was up.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Well, I've just given you a chance to voice your objection.
Mr T D HARRIS: Thank you for that chance, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Order! In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.
[Ms B V MNCUBE]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
FARMER JAILED FOR MURDER AND INDECENT ASSAULT
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B V MNCUBE: Madam Deputy Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that a Leeu-Gamka farmer, Piet Botes, was jailed for 35 years on 7 May 2010 and ordered to undergo a programme for sexual offenders while in prison, for murdering his farm worker's 13-year-old daughter and indecently assaulting two teenage girls in 2006; and
(2) acknowledges that this case sends a clear and unequivocal message to farmers who continue to treat women and girl children as part of their property, that those days are over and that all South Africans, regardless of their economic status, have rights that are protected by the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M W MAKGATE
Ms B V MNCUBE
WOMAN RAPED AND MURDERED IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M W MAKGATE: Madam Deputy Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that, on Saturday, 1 May 2010, Fiona Rollien Ephraims, aged 25, was raped and murdered and her body was found on Sunday morning at Extension 1, Blydeville, Lichtenburg, North West Province;
(2) further notes that she worked for the community and also volunteered at the Afrisam Project at the stadium;
(3) calls upon the community to assist the SA Police with information which could lead to the arrest of the perpetrators who committed this heinous crime; and
(4) takes this opportunity to extend its condolences to the family.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE BRETT GOLDIN BURSARY AWARD WINNERS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Madam Deputy Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the wonderful achievement of two promising actors, Josette Eales, 26, from Johannesburg and Thato Moraka, 25, originally from Mafikeng, who were announced as winners of the Brett Goldin Bursary award this year;
(2) further notes that they will travel to the home of the Royal Shakespeare company in Stratford-upon-Avon and, from 18 to 19 July, will receive training and skills development on different acting skills to better their acting;
(3) acknowledges that this is a useful and important achievement and bursary for these two young actors; and
(4) wishes them good luck and success with their training and conveys its good wishes to them.
I so move.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIRST ORDER
END OF TAKE
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Policy Debate)
Budget Vote No 2 - Parliament:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, hon delegates, representatives of nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, civil society in the gallery, and fellow South Africans, I want to thank you for coming today to listen to Budget Vote 2: Parliament being debated.
We have come ... not as pretenders to greatness, but as a particle of a people whom we know to be noble and heroic, enduring, multiplying, permanent, rejoicing in the expectation and knowledge that their humanity will be reaffirmed and enlarged by open and unfettered communion with the nations of the world.
These were the words of Nelson Mandela in his address to the Joint Session of the United States Congress, a few months after his release from jail. Twenty years later, our country is on the eve of hosting the biggest soccer spectacle in the world - the Fifa Soccer World Cup. Indeed, our humanity is being reaffirmed by the nations of the world.
As you know, ladies and gentlemen, the theme of Parliament this year is: Celebrate the legacy of Mandela – Contribute to nation building. Mandela's legacy is legendary. It is about the embodiment of our struggle for freedom. It is about constitutionalism. It is about nation-building. It is about great love for humanity.
Towards advancing the project of reaffirming our humanity, resources have been made available to support the work of Parliament. In the previous financial year, 2009-10, Parliament was initially allocated a budget of R1,35 billion. Three hundred and seventy-seven million of this was a direct charge against national revenue for members' remuneration. Nine hundred and seventy-four million was appropriated through a Budget Vote to fund the five main programmes of Parliament.
In addition to the R1,35 billion, an additional allocation of R133,9 million was received for unavoidable costs. This resulted in a total allocation of about R1,5 billion. The unavoidable costs were, for example, as a result of expenses for Information and Communication Technology, ICT, equipment for the fourth Parliament which cost us R14,1 million, participation in various international forums which cost us R31,1 million, and adjustments to members benefits which cost us R13,2 million.
In this regard, funded programmes, which are provided for in the new budget, are the following. The first programme is administration. The programme is intended to provide strategic leadership, institutional policy, administration and corporate services to support Members of Parliament. The initial allocation for the previous year was R247 million, and the new allocation is R317 million.
The second programme is legislation and oversight. This programme is intended to enable Parliament to pass legislation and oversee executive action. The initial allocation for the previous year was R187 million. The new allocation is R282 million.
The third programme is public and international participation. This programme allows Parliament to carry out public participation projects and participate in international relations activities. The initial allocation for the previous year was R67 million. The new allocation is R87 million.
The fourth programme is members' facilities. This programme is intended to provide travel, information and communication services and other facilities for the Members of Parliament in both Houses of Parliament. The initial allocation for the previous year was R212 million. The new allocation is R211 million.
The fifth programme is associated services. This programme is intended to provide financial support to political parties represented in Parliament. It is divided into political partysupport, constituency support and party leadership support. Can the party secretariat and media take note of this? It's very important. The initial allocation for the previous year was R258 million. The new allocation is R282 million.
When reflecting on the actual expenditure budget of the 2009-10 financial year, Parliament spent 94% of its total budget allocation. One of the contributing factors to the underspending emanates from the mismatch between the swearing-in of the members of the fourth Parliament and the beginning of the 2009-10 financial year. As we all know, the 2009-10 financial year began on 1 April 2009, whereas members of the fourth Parliament were only sworn-in on 06 May 2009. Effectively, the fourth Parliament began to operate in June 2009 after the induction of new members. What is important is what we want to do with the new budget I have just outlined.
Let us first look at the strategic framework. Both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, contributed to the development of the strategic framework for Parliament which was approved by the Parliamentary Oversight Authority in March this year. The framework, which contains our policy imperatives, proposes the following strategic objectives for this term.The first one is strengthening the oversight function and establishing a strong culture of overseeing executive action. In this regard, we would like to improve Parliament's capacity to exercise its constitutional oversight role by developing protocols for assessing the performance of all organs of state and providing them with sufficient resources to effectively carry out their role. In order to ensure outcomes-based oversight, Parliament needs to ensure dedicated support for committees, development of members' capacity, and improved institutional management.
Oversight that focuses on outcomes will assist in the process of reaffirming our humanity as the citizens of a democratic country. The implementation of the Oversight and Accountability Model is key to improving our approach to add co-ordination of oversight work. Towards this, an implementation team comprising officials and jointly chaired by House Chairpersons of the two Houses responsible for oversight was established.
The recommendations of the model were reviewed and systematically divided into the following work areas: parliamentary planning, institutional mechanisms, human resource capacity, facilities, technology and systems, new mechanisms, public participation, and the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Bill, which is now, of course, an Act. We are in the process of considering these recommendations for implementation.
As this House, we have agreed on the priorities for oversight during the period of the fourth Parliament. They are agriculture, economic development, health and social development, human settlements, police, rural development, and land reform. We need to pay attention to these areas at committee and institutional level, in our effort to contribute to the work of Parliament.
The second strategic plan that we are looking is increasing public involvement and participation in building a responsive people's Parliament. Our democracy is both representative and participatory. The Constitution provides for public involvement in the processes of Parliament. With regard to the NCOP's contribution in this regard, I am happy to report that the implementation of the new approach to the Taking Parliament to the People programme is delivering the impact we have always wanted it to deliver. For example, in the case of Limpopo, some of the mining houses are already implementing the commitments they made towards social investment.
To further strengthen public participation, we are developing a public participation model for Parliament. The Joint Rules Committee has agreed that the third Parliament's Joint Task Team on the Legislative Process in Parliament be revived to link its work with the issues relating to public participation. The task team is expected to report to the Joint Rules Committee within six months after re-establishment.
The third point is strengthening co-operative government and fostering improved co-operation and relations. Many of the aspects of the Constitution relating to Parliament's role in promoting co-operative government and intergovernmental relations require the development of processes and practice. Many areas have seen advancements, including the greater role of this House in interventions and in the area of intergovernmental fiscal relations.
However, we need to do more. We need to review the functioning of present arrangements as embodied in legislation. We appreciate the work done by this House in processing interventions. I think the committee is doing a great job in that line in terms of the number interventions that we see coming to the NCOP. Our role is to ensure that these interventions are not arbitrary. With the increase in the number of notices with regard to interventions in municipalities, we appreciate that a lot of work still needs to be done to improve governance in the local government sphere.
We are in the process of reconfiguring the portfolios of our two House Chairpersons in the NCOP so as to provide for a new portfolio on intergovernmental relations and co-operative government. The intention is to improve our performance in this area.
On the issue of nation-building, Parliament aims to embark on a project to increase its contribution to nation-building through enhancing unity and democracy in South Africa. The envisaged "Project Democracy" is to be used as a platform for robust and active involvement of Members of Parliament, as well as extensive public engagement. We will elaborate on this bold initiative after we have properly conceptualised it.
Strategic plan number four is to improve and widen the role of Parliament in international co-operation and participation. In the period under review, we participated in various regional, continental and international forums to promote the African agenda and the role South Africa plays in this regard. It is important to note that Parliament finds itself in a fast-changing global domain.
Going forward, we need to pay particular attention to the increasing role of Parliament in international relations. But the immediate task is to transform the nature of support to MPs from being mainly logistics to being content-oriented, especially when it comes to international participation. In order to elevate Parliament's role in international relations, we must start by improving our support capacity in research and policy areas because those are the areas that I think are lacking in supporting the members. If we don't provide the members with good research and assist them in terms of the policy that we are applying as our policy for international co-operation, then we are denying them the right of having the knowledge that they have to use when they interact with other political multilateral bodies. This is especially so in the context of the 2011 deadline to transform the Pan-African Parliament into a legislative body.
The last strategic plan is building an effective and efficient institution. In order to achieve all the above, it is important that we pay particular attention to the task of building an effective and efficient Parliament. Towards this, we need to continue to improve our human resource capacity, including a reorientation towards entrenching a service-delivery culture. As we roll out the new system and more modern technology, it is important for us to realise that a modern Parliament like ours will function better if we all improve our ICT skills. I know we still have a great shortage of those.
Can we all use our computers? [Interjections.] Surely? Am I the only one who can't? [Interjections.] Oh, alright. I will check that very soon because I'll be visiting your offices checking how many of us can communicate with their constituencies whilst in Cape Town doing their job. I will also be checking how many of you can communicate with the continent and the international world whilst you are here in Parliament doing your job. I will check that. I will visit anyone unannounced and ask him or her to teach me how it is done.
We are reviewing the support structure in the NCOP to respond to the need to follow up and assess our work. In line with the recommendations of the study we have conducted on Taking Parliament to the People, I have appointed a special adviser on intergovernmental matters in my office. Building an effective and efficient Parliament will require that we provide adequate space for members to do their work. Work is being done in this regard as part of the space utilisation project and more information will be made available. The strategic plan for the fourth Parliament, to be brought before this House as soon as possible, will give more detail with regard to these strategic objectives. Unfortunately, the document has been delayed because of political party processes.
In conclusion, in 1995, Nelson Mandela, who spoke of us as a particle of the people and the servants of the newly enfranchised, gave the captain of the Springboks before the Rugby World Cup a poem entitled Invictus with the following words:
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
The project of reaffirming our humanity is in our hands. Collectively, we are its masters and captains, nobody else but all of us as we are sitting here.
At this point, let me congratulate our parliamentary rugby team for their success during a visit to the United Kingdom and Ireland in November last year. They brought their trophy back to Parliament. I am doing this because I have realised that hon members today have shown their support to different sports clubs. I heard that Mr Lees supports Amazulu. I also heard that Mr Watson supports the Bulls, and so on. So, we all have our favourites.
On behalf of the millions of South Africans, whom you have the privilege to represent, I commend the Budget Vote No 2: Parliament, totalling R1,571 billion, inclusive of the direct charge. I do so in the hope that you will continue to support the project of reaffirming our people. I do so in the hope that you will support the work of this Parliament in giving a voice to the voiceless and holding the government to account. I thank you and the officials in making it possible to elaborate on an important project for our nation.
I want to thank the Secretary to Parliament and the staff. I also want to thank our staff in the NCOP, the Secretary to the NCOP, and other staff members. I want to thank you also, hon members, for the active role that you are playing in your work, exactly one year after having started in this House. It is now time for implementation, not time to play. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
END OF TAKE
Mr A WATSON
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr A WATSON: Deputy Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP, hon fellow delegates, this will be the seventh opportunity for me to participate in a debate on the Budget Vote for Parliament. I must say that, especially in regard to the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, much has been achieved over the years. In saying that, one cannot but acknowledge the tremendous role played by our Chairperson, hon M J Mahlangu, in building on the image of the institution whilst, at all times, considering the interests and the needs of the delegates.
During the past six years and seven Budget Vote debates, I have stood here drawing attention to many shortcomings in our operation, whilst offering suggestions to improve and acknowledging the positive. To me, possibly the worst nightmares emanated over the years from being steered and bulldozed by the administration and staff of the institution, rather than by the presidium and the members. Speaking on behalf of my party, the DA, I have always maintained that we are called Members of Parliament because Parliament is our institution and should, as such, be governed by us.
I am happy to acknowledge that that has now come to an end. Whilst planning and decision making is now firmly in the hands of those elected to govern the NCOP, serious thought must given to more input from the ordinary delegates to establish their views and needs, especially when it comes to major events and excursions like Taking Parliament to the People, workshops and conferences.
Questions to the executive remain one of the most important tools in our oversight function. However, I am afraid it has steadily become a source of great frustration to the delegates. We are aware of the fact that the Chairperson is attending to the problem of written questions from the NCOP not being answered in good time, and we thank him for that. But this perceived disregard of the NCOP is also reflected in the attendance by Ministers at question sessions in the NCOP. Then I ask: Why is the National Assembly, NA, favoured by having questions posed to and answered by both the President and the Deputy President, whilst in the NCOP we only have the privilege of questions to the Deputy President? Is that not just another contributing factor to the attitude of treating the NCOP as inferior by some individuals?
The update of the Rules of the NCOP and their application in the House is also a matter that has been uppermost in our minds over many years. I am happy to report that we, as the subcommittee, have gone a long way in considering amendments. We look forward to the finalisation of the Rules by the Rules Committee at the meeting scheduled by the Chairperson to start on 4 June, so that we can have a fresh set of Rules to work with when we come back from the Fifa extravaganza.
Having up to date Rules is, however, by no ways enough. We need to embark on the programme of empowering ourselves as delegates with regard to the how and when of those Rules, particularly to protect each other and ourselves. I am not propagating a stiff militarised assembly where no one dares to be out of step at anytime. On the contrary, legislatures all over the world have been known for spontaneous wit and humour, and that must be preserved at all cost.
However, when rising on serious points of order, points of clarity or requests to address the Chair, actions should be in accordance with the prescribed Rules. We must be serious and act accordingly. It also follows logically, and even more importantly, that decisions and rulings from the Chair should, likewise, be professional interpretations of the Rules and should add to the decorum of the House rather than break it down.
As in previous years, I have said nothing about the actual finances of Parliament because my party's Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip will again attend to that when addressing the National Assembly later today. I will, therefore, remain focused on the NCOP as such, and end with my favourite topic, namely the place and stature of the NCOP in society.
The sad fact is that we are still, and remain, an unknown entity in the world out there, a poor replacement for the once illustrious Senate of the Republic of South Africa. Now, much has been said about the problem and many recommendations have been made. Chairperson, you would recall that we even devoted part of our ten-year celebrations to discussing this matter. I will never forget the professor of constitutional affairs who stood up and said that he has taught 600 students, and if he doesn't know what the NCOP does, then how could we expect him to teach 600 students to know what we were doing.
But I have a solution. Let us make and implement one small change to the Constitution and rename this House as the National Senate of Provinces. It won't be long before we will simply be referred to as the Senate and we, the delegates, will be senators once again. Think about it. I thank you.
Mr S H PLAATJIE
Mr A WATSON
Mr S H PLAATJIE: Chairperson, because I only have about four minutes, I will try to be fast. Parliament is the grand institution of the nation. Our Parliament should be perceived as such by the people of the country. Perception in politics is everything. As Ivor Chipkin puts it:
Our politics appeal to the wrong essentialism. They appeal to the essentialism of race and culture, instead of to the essential of the Constitution.
As the principle of responsible government prevails in South Africa, the executive has to be fully accountable to the parliamentarians. Unfortunately, those who have most cause to raise the most issues are afforded the least time. Conversely, those who have the least questions are given too much time. Such an apportionment of time, as occurs in Parliament, fits very poorly with the principle of responsible government and contributes to the worst problem in government. Is Parliament really holding the government accountable? To answer this question, the Chairperson should produce a balance sheet. The facts must speak for themselves. This refers to answering of question by Ministers.
To us in Cope, it seems as though the parliamentarian majority only serves to democratically trump Parliament's constitutional obligations. Therefore, where electorates give a political party maximum support, they get minimum results. This irony is not lost on the people. South Africans are more likely to trust our courts than Parliament because Parliament does not give clear judgment on issues and is perceived to be hedging on challenges. I now come to the question of the media. The media coverage of politics is about political conduct because Parliament offers no real debate on policies or current issues. The debilitation of Parliament is as a result of what we have made our Parliament to be.
In conclusion, if the role of Parliament in the public's mind is minimised and can no longer serve as the grand institution, the people, to whom Parliament belongs, will increasingly reject Parliament. It is our interest and the interest of the nation to revitalise Parliament. I thank you. [Applause.] [The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)]
END OF TAKE
Mr S H PLAATJIE
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Chairperson, delegates our guests in the gallery, I rise to support the Budget of Parliament as presented by the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces. It is now a year since this House was established in May 2009. This gives us an opportunity to reflect on the road we have travelled since then.
I would like to start by emphasising that the process of contributing to the development of the Budget before us does not start and end with this debate. Parliament has a governance structure for considering issues throughout the year.
Our governance model provides for a Parliamentary Oversight Authority, which is co-chaired by the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces. The Parliamentary Oversight Authority is responsible for formulating policy directives in respect of the various services and facilities of Parliament.
Its mandate is to ensure an effective and efficient Parliament by putting in place an appropriate system of governance by means of which Parliament is managed and controlled in support and furtherance of its strategies and policies. The Parliamentary Oversight Authority is accountable directly to the two Houses of Parliament.
Members of Parliament make inputs into the Parliament's Budget via two primary structures. These are the Quarterly Consultative Forum and the Parliamentary Budget Forum. The Quarterly Consultative Forum is a forum that facilitates the input of Members of Parliament on matters related to members' facilities. The Parliamentary Budget Forum is the forum that prepares the parliamentary Budget and reports on it. The composition of these structures is explained in the governance model document.
House Chairperson, one of the important tasks of the fourth Parliament is the implementation of the oversight and accountability model. The impact of the model on the parliamentary programme is significant. For example, a complete oversight process would require additional time for constituency work to ensure sharper focus on oversight matters, greater public participation in parliamentary activities and the consideration of reports of committees, as well as private members' business. The programme framework to be proposed to the Joint Rules Committee, the Joint Programming Committee and the Programming Committee of both Houses must take into account these requirements.
The model identified potential mechanisms that could further strengthen oversight and accountability. Therefore, the rules had to be reviewed to provide for regulatory frameworks in respect of the following, the processing of reports from sectoral parliaments, oversight of international agreements, executive compliance, joint reporting by committees, and referral of matters arising from reports of international bodies. The model recommends, among other things, the establishment and/or development of sufficient human resource capacity to enable committees to conduct effective oversight. We are responding to this by increasing support capacity in areas, such as research and content analysis.
Also under consideration are the Joint Parliamentary Oversight and Assurance Committee. This committee is proposed for purposes of governing the work and function of committees in Parliament. On the other hand, the implementation of the new Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009, presents new challenges for Parliament. The Act provides Parliament with a procedure to amend Money Bills, as well as norms and standards for amending Money Bills before provincial legislatures and related matters. While much progress has been made to facilitate the implementation of this Act, such as the establishment of the Finance and Appropriations Committees in each House, a lot still needs to be done. This includes, for example, processing and adoption of the Division of Revenue Bill. The provisions of the Act were implemented to process the Division of Revenue Bill. However, the time allocated for this process is too limited to invoke the provisions of the Mandating Procedures of Provinces Act to allow the provinces adequate time to process the Bill and provide mandates to their delegates in this House.
With regard to the establishment of the Parliamentary Budget Office, it is under consideration. We need to find a common and shared view of how this office should operate. A number of issues have still to be ironed out regarding, among others, the accounting responsibilities of the director and the roles of other structures within Parliament.
On legislative work, our focus has been the review of the legislation that has been passed and rectifying areas of weakness through amendments. However, there is a need for Parliament to ascertain the impact of the laws we pass. Through its committees, this House can start by focusing on section 76 legislation.
Hon members, we are aware of the expressed need to capacitate our committees. As I have indicated, work is being done to ensure that committees have the necessary capacity to carry out their responsibilities. This must include the capacity to ensure value for money and proper spending.
As you are aware, our financial environment is now regulated by the Financial Management of Parliament Act. The Act, which came into operation in April last year in accordance with the transitional arrangements as set out in Schedule 4, will help to ensure transparency, accountability and sound management of the revenue, expenditure, assets and liabilities of Parliament. It reinforces the constitutional status of Parliament in that it ensures a consultative relationship between Parliament and the National Treasury.
It is worth noting that the role of Parliament and the provincial legislatures is located within the broader scope of the legislative sector in South Africa. Through the Speakers' Forum, we continue to oversee the management and co-ordination of the legislative sector programmes as determined by the South African Legislative Sector Policy and Strategic Framework. This is important because we have one government, which is unitary but with regional features.
House Chairperson, I started by making reference to the work we do through the provincial week because it is important that we maintain the link with provinces. At this point, I am reminded of what former Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi once said:
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: Those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition.
Let us be part of the first group of people who do the work.
Twelve months after the establishment of this House, allow me to raise certain questions to establish whether we have done what we were supposed to do.
The questions are as follows: What have done to advance the mandate of this House? What have we done to respond to the priorities we set ourselves in August last year, which are contained in the NCOP Strategic Framework Plan? What have we done to promote intergovernmental relations and co-operative government in the conduct of our business? How have we followed up on service delivery matters that were the subject of consideration by this House? I would like the Chairpersons of the Committees and the Whippery to consider and respond to these questions before recess. Their responses will give us an opportunity to do an analysis in order to develop our first report, which should be ready after the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup.
The legacy of Mandela requires that we work hard to uplift our people and to destroy the remains of the legacy of apartheid. With these words, I would like to thank the officials for the support they continue to give us under the leadership of the Secretary to Parliament. Their role is indispensable as Members of Parliament rely on technical support to be able to do their work. Thank you. [Applause.]
END OF TAKE
Mr J J GUNDA
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
Mr J J GUNDA: House Chair and all protocol observed, allow me to congratulate the hon Deputy Chair on the questions she had just asked. We should all ask ourselves those questions. We should take this House very seriously. Today I am going to speak from my heart and forget about the speech that is in front of me.
The first thing that you should really know is that this is a serious budget. Since we are claiming that this is the People's Parliament, as members, we should ask ourselves if we are serving the people who voted for us, doing justice to the provinces, and are delivering the service to them. I believe that the increment of this budget is not much. Our important role is to provide oversight so that people can know the meaning and understand the purpose of the NCOP.
Through the media, we should go out there and make South Africans understand what the NCOP stands for. Fighting amongst one another when our people out there are suffering is not going to help us. As the NCOP, we should be hands-on concerning our oversight role and service delivery in the provinces. The ID does not believe that allowing Ministers to devise their own Ministerial Handbook will achieve anything in terms of cutting down on expenses. Instead, the ID believes that an ad hoc committee consisting of all parties from both Houses should revise that Ministerial Handbook in order to bring it in line with the slogan, "working together we can do more for our people". If we are serious, we will use that slogan to implement that and to see to it that people on the ground are getting the service. I believe that this House can do anything. There is nothing impossible for this House.
I believe that the NCOP has the capacity. When I listened to the people who debated in this House today, they all had the capacity. They had everything inside them to see to it that the Rules in this House are implemented in each and every province, so that the people can understand what the NCOP does in this country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Umntwana M M M ZULU
Mr J J GUNDA
IsiZulu :
UMNTWANA M M M ZULU: Sihlalo, ungixolele ngoba eNgilandi ngeke ngiye ngiseAfrika. Sihlalo womhlangano namalungu ahloniphekile ale Ndlu, izivakashi zethu ezikhona. Nami ngithi angizojoyina bonke abaningi asebekhulumile ngendaba yePhalamende kulo nyaka.
Bese sifisela impumelelo bonke abakhona abalisebenzelayo kulonyaka noma ungakapheli. Sihlalo, ngithi kuleminyaka eyishumi nesithupha eyedlule sakwazi ukuthi Sithole intando yeningi sibe nomthetho sisekelo wethu okuyiwona laba abafundile abathi yi "Super in law of our land".
Ngithi ke kufuneka sibone ukuthi sihlukanise phakathi kwesikuzuzile nesingakuzuzanga ngoba njengabantu kufuneka sikwazi ukubheka ukuthi yikuphi esikuzuzile futhi yikuphi esingakuzuzanga. Lapho kufuneka singamalungu ePhalamende noma amalungu eSishayamthetho Sikazwelonke, namalungu eNdlu Yemikhandlu Yezifundazwe siyohlala phansi sibheke ukuthi yikuphi esingakuzuzanga. Singenzenjani ukuze sikuzuze ukuze kusizakale abantu bakithi.
Bakithi uma sibheka kulokhu kubhekwa kweMinyango kahulumeni lokhu abafundile abathi yi "oversight" ngithi kuwumsebenzi obaluleke kakhulu Sihlalo wale Ndlu ukuthi lomsebenzi wenzeke ngoba isibopho sokuchaza ngokwenzekayo yinto edingekayo kunoma yimuphi omunye umuntu kulelizwe. Ngoba uma ungenaso isibopho sokuchaza ngokwenzekayo kusho ukuthi usebenza nje, uyadunguza nje, nokugxekwa kufuneka ukuba ugxeke ngokwakhayo ukuze bakwazi nabantu ukuthi izinto zihamba kanjani.
Ngithi alukho nolulodwa usuku lapho kufuneka siziqhenye singabantu abamnyama baseNingizimu Afrika, noma njengabantu baseNingizimu Afrika, abahluphekayo bonke ukuba sikwazi ukuthi siphucule izimpilo zabantu bakithi bonke bakwazi ukuphumelela.
Bakithi loko okuzuziwe obabumkhulu abakuzuzanga, baze bahamba belwela lelizwe kuwo wonke amagumbi e-Afrika ngoba yonke indoda emnyama kulelizwe iyazi ukuthi amadoda amnyama alwa kanjani – elwa kukubi, kungemnandi. Ubabomkhulu akaguqanga amadolo ephezu kogogo nje, waye la eSt Helena, eNorthern Cape, kwesakho De Beer ehlezi khona iminyaka. Akaze aguqa. Ngithi kulokho ke Sihlalo ngicela ukuthi njengeqembu leNkatha siyasesekela iSabiwomali ukuba sisetshenziswe kahle sikwazi ukusiza izidingo zabantu abampisholo kulelizwe. Ngiyabonga.
END OF TAKE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: OVERSIGHT AND INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT (Mr R J Tau)
Umntwana M M M ZULU
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: OVERSIGHT AND INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT (Mr R J Tau): Chairperson, we have noted the importance of this particular debate, and maybe before I deal with some issues, there is something I find very interesting that we need to reflect on. It comes from the DA and Cope.
The DA, for a very long time, has very consistently defended the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. All of us agree that it is a very important document that we need to pride ourselves on. The formation of Cope was based on the defence of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. They have also been very consistent in bringing this to the attention of the South African populace, raising false alarms about how the ANC under the leadership of our President, Jacob Zuma, is going to undermine and amend the Constitution.
But I find it quite interesting that in this very important debate today, the DA and Cope are proposing amendments to the Constitution – very selective amendments to the Constitution, for that matter. And we find it very interesting that the DA, in particular, is giving leadership in that regard, that where there are shortcomings, we need to look at the amendment of the Constitution to go forward. And maybe one of the key things that we need to look at is the property clause because it is through that that we will be able to fight poverty, we will be able to fight the inequality that exists within our society that is created by the very same problems that this Constitution addresses here. [Applause.]
Since 1955, at the gathering of our people in Kliptown, at the Congress of the People, we have been very clear. Here, the people of South Africa declared that South Africa belongs to all those who live in it. It was at that particular gathering that we brought up the concept of a people's assembly, of a people's Parliament again. And that concept at that gathering has guided the ANC, throughout the processes of the bannings and even after our liberation. We continued to say, ours will be to build a people's Parliament in which all those who live in South Africa shall be part and parcel of it and will participate actively in deciding the path that our country is supposed to take. [Applause.]
It is not loose. That concept is not loose. It has a particular history as well, because that history is informed by the ANC's adoption of a concept referred to as the national democratic revolution. It was explained as follows – that our main mission is the creation of a South Africa that is nonracist, nonsexist, and democratic, which will allow all our people to participate actively in the processes of our advancement.
Therefore as we speak today, we are not losing sight of those historical imperatives. Hence today, as the ANC, we can stand up proudly and say that ours is about the development and the strengthening of an activist parliament, because an activist parliament is that parliament there that will take into account all the very same aspects that members have been raising. These are strengthening the capacity of Parliament to do oversight and to be accountable, strengthening the capacity of Parliament or the legislatures to have that kind of a relationship with the executive.
Our understanding of the separation of powers and the capacity of Parliament is not based on the liberal conceptualisation of oversight, because that conceptualisation sees Parliament as being a watchdog and an institution the sole responsibility of which will just be to criticise, criticise, criticise. Ours is about a relationship, an understanding that there is a separation of powers, and each and every arm has a particular role to play and, by doing that, we complement one another. We do not just shout from the rooftops about how government or the executive is useless and is not doing their work without providing alternatives that seek to enhance the work of the executive. It is that particular role that we will be playing.
I think one of the things that is very important and unique, in actual fact - and I find it quite strange that it is raised by the DA again - is with the conceptualisation of the National Council of Provinces vis-à-vis how the Senate works. The basis of the establishment of the National Council of Provinces was, in actual fact, to ensure that we build on the capacity of local, provincial and national government in order to be able to work together, hence the intergovernmental relations. It is, therefore, important.
It would have been quite wise and very progressive, for instance, for the DA to have raised a question concerning the role of the South African Local Government Association, Salga. How, then, do we, as the National Council of Provinces, begin to look at the capacity and active role of Salga in the NCOP? I think it is a matter that we, as the ANC, say, we are lacking in that particular area. Therefore, we need to look at how best we can ensure that Salga plays the strategic role that it is supposed to play – by ensuring that they are actively involved, not only in plenaries in this particular House, but also even at committee level. The question should probably be: Does Salga have that capacity? And what, therefore, becomes our role as the NCOP in terms of our budget and programme to capacitate and enable Salga to play an active role in the NCOP? I think that is a very important matter that we need to look at.
There is another thing that we, as the ANC, are raising, because we have made a very important observation on oversight and the role that committees are supposed to play vis-à-vis the leadership that must be provided to committees in order for them to do effective oversight. You would find that the Chairperson raises the question on strengthening the capacity of chairpersons of committees with content advisers, secretaries, and researchers. But the question we are raising is the disjuncture that you find that exists between the Chair and the secretary of the committee in terms of their reporting mechanism. You would find that the Chairperson has no role, no say over his or her own support mechanism. The secretary to the committee reports somewhere else, the researcher reports somewhere else, and even, sometimes, the content advisers report somewhere else. [Applause.] That causes a serious disjuncture in terms of the functionality of committees.
Beyond that, maybe there is another question we need to ask ourselves, as Parliament, in terms of our budget. Are we really doing them justice in terms of support to committees, particularly committees of the National Council of Provinces, where you find clustered committees that must do oversight over three departments? Just one department can come and make a presentation to a committee of the NCOP, and it comes with two legal advisers, two researchers, the director-general, heavily resourced, and now they sit here with these members whose capacity cannot match the capacity of the department. I think that is another matter that we really need to look at when we speak about this, especially when it comes to committees of the National Council of Provinces – if really, we need to give the necessary and effective assistance.
Coupled to that, there is a particular wave that we see introduced. Much as the others, for instance, Helen Zille, went out to say that this government or this executive has achieved zero under the leadership of President Zuma. There is a particular wave in the country, something new that is being introduced that seeks to revolutionise the functionality of the executive in terms of accountability to the President and accountability to the South African public through the signing of performance-based agreements.
The question that we need to ask ourselves as legislators now is how we position ourselves not to be left behind by the speed at which the executive is moving. If we do not do that, we may find ourselves lagging behind and chasing after the executive, where the executive is running at 340km/h, while we are still at 60km/h in terms of doing our oversight work, and so forth.
It is quite important that, as a legislative body, we need to reflect and ponder on some of these questions. What are the implications of these performance agreements between the President and the Ministers and the role of Parliament and its committees to do oversight?
Perhaps this is also important, Chair. In 2004-05, there was a concept that was introduced by the NCOP, and it gained momentum up to a point but we ran just short of implementing it - strengthening our oversight mechanism. One of the things that we were saying was about doing 70% oversight and being in the constituencies and being in Parliament 30% of the time. That was informed, of course, by the fact that, since 1994 and up until that particular time, we had dealt a lot, and sufficiently so, with legislation.
Is it not possible to really revisit that particular concept and its relevance in strengthening our way of doing oversight? That means we would spend 70% of our time with the people that elected us, with the people that gave us a mandate. For the remaining 30% of the time, we would be here doing our legislative work and other things that are relevant to Parliament.
The last thing I thought would be quite important for us to look at closely is the question of the notion of taking Parliament to the People. Is it effective? Is it working for us? What are the gaps? What are the areas that we need to look at? For instance, an issue that we can begin to grapple with is the following: when we leave a place, how do we consistently keep that link with the people that we visited in order to ensure that by the time something happens in those areas, people are able to carry on and say, if it were not because of the National Council of Provinces, this particular thing would not happen. This is an option, as opposed to merely going in and getting out without really ensuring that together we work with our people to find the solutions to their problems.
I think it is quite important that as the NCOP we need to have a mechanism that will ensure that as and when we take Parliament to the People, whether it is the National Assembly through the People's Assembly, and so forth, we are still able to keep in touch and keep track of the issues that were raised by our people to ensure that they are not left behind.
Let me conclude by saying that a very important commitment was made. That commitment was based on the fact that, as Parliament, we passed legislation and we passed a Budget. That commitment also went to the construction workers, in that they were committed to constructing the stadiums, and so forth. As we speak today, the local organising committee has lived up to that particular commitment, but only as far as the construction workers are concerned. We want to know what is going to happen to the Members of Parliament who passed the Budget to ensure that those things do happen. On that note, thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
END OF TAKE
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: OVERSIGHT AND INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT (Mr R J Tau)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, hon Tau, I am not a member of the local organising committee. I am the Chairperson of the NCOP. I am not sure whether you will get the tickets or not but keep on trying your luck.
Let me start with you and reply to just one thing. I cannot reply to everyone. One of the two things that you have raised that is very important to me is the participation of Salga. That discussion has to continue in the fourth Parliament and must take place. You are aware that I have said many times in this House that Salga has not taken its full place in the NCOP. I would like you, particularly as the House Chair, to assist me to take that discussion on. We cannot leave it like that because they have a role to play, and I believe, in terms of co-operative government and delivery of services on the ground by the local municipalities, Salga can play a very important role.
On the second thing you have raised and I have heard it before, I want to say that I find it very strange that a report of a committee can be tabled in this House without a chairperson having gone through that report. I find it strange that the committee secretary just finalises the report, and then the report comes to the House. I don't know whether I heard you well. That report is the chairperson's and the committee's report. It cannot be the secretary's report. It is like the Bill. When the Bill is before the committee, it is your Bill. You have to deal with it if there are amendments. I have said it many times. An example of this was the Children's Bill, as you will remember. It cannot be correct that you make some amendments to the Bill and when the Bill comes to the House to be passed, there are other amendments that you don't know about. Then you stand in the House and you say that you support the Bill but you don't know – that somebody has added some amendments that you have not seen and discussed. The final piece of legislation that comes to the House should have been passed by the committee, and you should have agreed to those amendments.
The same applies to the report of the committee. The chairperson is the owner of that report. What is it then that you are debating about? Is it the report that you haven't seen and discussed? How do you defend it? I just want to support you with that one. I think secretaries to the committees must be very careful. Let them give support to the chairpersons, but don't let them take over from the chairpersons. That is their job. They should not take over. They must give support to the chairpersons. Everything has to be checked by the chairperson before it comes to the House.
The last important thing which you have mentioned is the question of follow-ups on our public participation. It doesn't matter whether it is taking Parliament to the People, public participation on policy issues or any matter that the committee has undertaken. What is of importance is those regular follow-ups in order for us to get in touch, either with those communities or the leadership around there, to ensure that things are happening the way we want them to happen. That is the capacity, and I agree with you, that we need to build. Committees should actually build them into their programmes when you do their oversight function.
You've already said to me we went to Limpopo that we should go back. I am going back with a small team in May. I will take one or two of you people. We are going to do some work with the leadership there to check what they have done up to now because it is leading to the new local government budget which will be in July. Before they finalise their budget, we would like to know what they have done about the issues that have been raised by the people there. We would like to know what the province has done because provinces have their entire budget to apply already to those particular municipalities in order to address some of the issues there. We will do that. [Interjections.] I said I will take a few people with. You must leave it to the chairperson. I will take a few people. I will definitely not go alone.
I have listened to Prince Zulu, Mr Gunda and Mr Plaatjie. All members, including Mr Tau, have emphasised the oversight function. I realise how important this aspect of work is to us as members. I am very happy about that. Without us doing that type of work, it will be as if we are glued to our chairs. It will be as if we do not see what is happening out there. That is the most important work that Members of Parliament have to do, because we represent the people on the ground. We are their mouths, their voices and everything. We have the power, and we are their saviour. If we don't do that, we will not achieve anything. I am very glad that members have a full grasp of that. Maybe it is of importance that more capacity is built around the Members of Parliament in order to do all those things. I must thank you.
Prince Zulu, for the past three years, Parliament has never had qualifications from the Auditor-General. [Applause.] We are managing our money very well. Nobody can say that there is anything wrong with our Budget. It has taken us five to six years to remove that. When we took over as presiding officers, we found qualifications that were nearingdisclaimers, unfortunately. We, together with the secretary to Parliament, have overturned that to make our Budget more effectively managed. With the Bill that we have passed now, the financial management of Parliament will do much better to manage our finances in Parliament.
Mr Watson, on your comment on the involvement of the members of the NCOP, I can guarantee that we are involved. We are so small in the NCOP in terms of size. I don't know what we will do if we are not involving each other. Democracy is about involving other people. I want to repeat it. It is important that everybody is involved, whether you agree on a thing or not. I have said to you many times in this House that that involvement does not mean that we will agree all the time on the issues before the table. It does not mean that. We will disagree and sometimes agree. We will find each other where we can find each other. That is an important thing.
Dialogue is very important because one will hear all the sides of the people in this institution. We will keep doing that, and I believe in it. Openness and transparency are very good principles of democracy. We will discuss with the people who are in the institution and take decisions together. You will have a very peaceful institution. You will have an institution that achieves things, rather than having a set back with the things that we are doing in this House.
I am very happy about the way we are functioning and some of us might be staying a little behind and we are saying:
Afrikaans:
Die agteros kom ook in die kraal. [Even those who progress slowly eventually reach their destinations.]
English:
We will not leave you behind. We will take you with us. That is important. Let's assist each other.
In terms of the questions, you are correct. I have made it my job to check, every quarter at least, how many questions have not been answered by the executive so that I can respond on behalf of the members of this House. I have done that again this quarter because we are just finishing our first quarter.
I have already written a letter to the Deputy President. It is here in front of me. If you want a copy of it, you can just ask me. There are a total of 38 written questions from members to which there has been no response. I am not taking this very kindly, because I think 38 questions not responded to are many questions. I have already written to the Deputy President, and I have asked him to intervene as a matter of urgency. It is mostly on the written questions. On oral questions, Ministers come here and they respond to the questions, but the problem comes in with written questions. I have done a check again. From 19 March until 16 April, these questions have not been responded to. I have taken the matter up already with the Deputy President.
In terms of the Rules, I should commend you. Mr Jacobs, the chairperson of the Subcommittee on Review of Council Rules, and you, as members, have done a wonderful job. I have never seen people working at the speed that you have done. I thought that it would take us another year to review those Rules. You would remember that in the third Parliament, you and I have discussed that we should revisit our Rules. The programming committee agreed that we should revisit all our Rules because they were drafted in 1994 when we came here. We have completed the review of our Rules. Is the workshop for the programming committee or for all of us? The workshop is for the Rules committee on 4 June.
In terms of the point of order, I heard that you have raised it and the Presiding Officers will meet soon. We will look at ourselves in terms of how we are dealing with those issues concerning the Rules. I want to introduce something in this House. When you stand up on a point of order, can you carry your book with you? Can you tell the Chairperson that you are standing up on a point of order in terms of Rule 106? I want to teach you that.
People just stand up on a point of order, even if it is not a point of order. That wastes the time of the House and interrupts the business of the House. That, at the same time will teach you how to use the Rules. You are assisting me, as the Chair. You will know if the member is correct or wrong, in terms of Rule 106. You will know if the member could not have raised a point of order, in terms of Rule 106. If we carry our books, even though we memorise the Rule, we can just refer to the Rule. I will then check the Rules while I am sitting here. It also teaches me because I forget some of the Rules. All of us will learn the Rules by doing so.
Mr Watson, the other point that you have raised was actually raised by Mr Bloem. I have advised that you write to the Constitutional Review Committee to look at whether we can deal with that and other discussions can take place. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
END OF TAKE
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
ALLEGED INSULT TO PREMIER OF WESTERN CAPE
(Ruling)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, before we part, I have responses for the two points of order that were raised on 5 May 2010. I will then start with hon van Lingen. I would like to make a ruling on a point of order raised by hon Van Lingen. The hon member raised a point of order that hon Ntwanambi insulted the Premier of the Western Cape, hon Helen Zille, during her debate. I requested hon van Lingen to indicate to me what it was that was found to be insulting in hon Ntwanambi's speech.
Hon van Lingen said that it was with reference to the fact that the Western Cape has built toilets without walls and that the premier is not empowering women in the province. Before I make a ruling, I would like to appeal to members that points of order should not be used to either interrupt the speaker on the podium or as a form of response to a member's speech. If members disagree with the speaker, they should rather raise such matters during their debates. I therefore rule that there is nothing insulting in the statement made by hon Ntwanambi. But instead, there are political statements and any member who disagrees should rather engage during debates. Thank you.
ALLEGED CONTRAVENTION OF RULE 46
(Ruling)
The second ruling is directed to hon Harris. Hon member, I would like to make a ruling on a point of order made by you during our plenary on Wednesday, 5 May 2010. The hon member has raised a point of order to the statement made by hon Ntwanambi, when she said that the services had been cut off, on the grounds that such a statement is in violation of Rule 46 of the Council Rules. Rule 46 provides that no member may deliberately make a statement in the Council which the member knows is false.
The question that I have to consider is whether the statement made by hon Ntwanambi was false and if so, whether such a statement was deliberately made, because as Presiding Officers, we are not always privy to the statements that members make in the House. However, on this matter it was reported in the media that certain services were cut off in some areas in the Western Cape.
I therefore rule that it cannot be said that the statement is false. Thank you, members.
The Council adjourned at 12:09.
END OF TAKE
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