Hansard: NCOP: Questions Session - Deputy President

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 01 Jun 2010

Summary

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Minutes

WEDNESDAY, 2 JUNE 2010

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 15:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

START OF DAY

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motions or motions without notice. We will now proceed to the questions as printed on the Order Paper. We welcome you, Deputy President, to take up the questions in this important House. Thank you very much.

I just want to remind the members once more that the time for a reply per question is five minutes; time for asking supplementary questions is two minutes; and the time for replying to supplementary questions is four minutes. Only four supplementary questions can be asked. I will now put the first question – which is Question 7 – asked by hon Ntwanambi to the Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Question No 7:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, hon members and hon Ntwanambi, government does not have a specific policy that prohibits people who receive social grants from paying government levies. As the hon member is aware, government is implementing a range of measures to support the poor to access services. These include the social wage which is provided in the form of three basics services: subsidised school transport, school nutrition, as well as subsidised housing, among others.

According to latest the Budget Review, consolidated government expenditure on housing, community development, water supply, education, health services, recreation and culture will amount to about R360 billion in the 2010-11 financial year. This is in addition to billions of rands that government spends on social assistance in the form of old age, child support and disability grants. Mounting evidence points to a huge impact of all these social assistance measures in the lives of the poor and vulnerable members of our society.

This fact is fully appreciated by all spheres of government and non-state actors who agree that working together we can do more to ensure universal access, especially targeting poor rural communities. Notwithstanding this understanding at the level of government, there are households whose knowledge of what they qualify for is limited. That is why, as government, we are strengthening the Community Development Worker Programme to ensure that these cadres who service communities are up to the task. If gaps are identified in the course of implementing any of our social protection policies, there is no doubt that government will endeavour to review these with a view to improve reach and effectiveness of the programmes. Thank you.

QUESTION 8

QUESTION 7

Question 8:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members and hon Ntwanambi, in the course of doing its business, government does interact, formally and informally, with individual and organised business formations. In the majority of cases, these engagements occur at three levels: firstly, at the level of policy formulation at Nedlac; secondly, in the context of implementing our industrial policies; and, thirdly, in pursuance of economic diplomacy.

As far as I'm aware, no structure of organised business has raised any concern with regards to their interaction with government. As a matter of fact, government enjoys good working relations with organised business and other social partners. To illustrate this point, hon members may be aware of the collaborative effort of government, business and organised labour in responding to the effects of recession. This multiple stakeholder leadership group led the process of developing and implementing the framework response to the economic crisis, which was loaded by many observers as a unique initiative.

This is but one example of the co-operation that we have with businesses and organised formations. Therefore government does value and cherish relations and contributions of all social partners who are rolling up their sleeves in pursued of social and economic transformation. I thank you.

IsiZulu:

Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, kuPhini likaMongameli, njengoba kubonakala ukuthi uhulumeni uyakwazi ukuxhumana nosomabhizinisi baqhube ezinye izinhlelo. Ngaphezu kokusebenzisana kukahulumeni nosomabhizinisi, zikhona yini ezinye izinhlelo eziqhubekayo ezihlanganisa nomphakathi? Ngiyabonga.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, as I have indicated, government interacts formally with sectoral formations through Nedlac, as well as through the Presidential working groups that are focussed on specific challenges at a given time. So, indeed, there are areas where, together with organised business, we collaborate in terms of projects in specific areas. Thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, the Deputy President mentioned the framework of response to the global financial crisis, which was formulated in collaboration with Nedlac, and the successes of that programme's response. My question is: Does the Deputy President believe that there were problems in the design of the training lay-off schemes, specifically as reflected in the low take-up rate and low-response rate from business?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the framework agreement was put together by a structure that is representative of all sectors, that is communities, organised business, organised labour and government. The training element in this structure was primarily aimed at addressing the challenge of job cutbacks in those companies that would have been under distress.

About R6,2 billion was set aside to assist companies that were in distress. Some of them took advantage of the availability of this fund in order to avoid retrenching workers. However, in other industries it was not that easy to avoid job cutbacks precisely because those industries were directly affected by the decline of demand at a global scale.

Therefore the design of the training programme was adequate. In my view, it's something that would be useful even beyond the recession period. Technically, we are now out of the recession. However, as we all know, the process of economic recovery continues to be affected by other economies. We know that in Europe now the Pigs, that is Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, are sinking deeper into an economic crisis which will impact on other markets that would also have a slowdown effect on our recovery possibilities. Thank you.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, there is a database of youth that has graduated from the various tertiary institutions. That database was used by the former youth agency, but it has subsequently been transferred to the National Youth Development Agency.

That database reflects the youth that has qualified in various disciplines from the tertiary institutions in South Africa. That was for the purpose of ensuring that business is able to access skills, and also assist youth by recruiting them from the relevant database. I would like to find out if the government is still using the same database, whether it has been discontinued, or whether there are moves aimed at improving the database. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am not sure whether that's a new or not. To me it looks like a new question altogether. But if the Deputy President is ready to answer, it is fine; I don't have a problem.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I agree with you; this is a new question. As hon Montsitsi has indicated, the database which was in the possession of Umsobomvu and the SA Youth Council would have been passed on to the National Youth Development Agency. Therefore it would be available to any interested party that needs to access that information.

I don't have the exact details. All I can indicate is that we are working with the Minister of Higher Education and Training to look into the programmes of addressing this challenge of unemployed youth. There are about 3 million of unemployed youth, some with tertiary education level qualifications, and others in need of further training. The Minister of Higher Education and Training is definitely looking into ways of addressing that challenge. Thank you.

QUESTION 8

Question 9:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members, there have been several strands of work to review the workings of the civil service and the public sector in general, before and after the 2009 elections.

Since the inauguration of this administration, the Minister in The Presidency responsible for performance monitoring and evaluation was mandated by Cabinet to lead a process called the macro-organisation of the state. This built on previous reviews which necessitated the creation of new departments aimed at improving effectiveness and streamlining government programmes.

Given the importance that government has placed on the transformation of the public service, we have included this project in the 12 outcomes designed to improve the performance of the state. The aim is to build an efficient, effective and development-oriented public service.

Government, led by the President, has had a number of engagements with public servants including school principals, municipal managers, police station commanders and directors-general. These engagements have focused precisely on the issues raised by hon Mokgobi such as improving the capacity and performance of the state in relation to meeting the electoral mandate. In addition, these engagements have emphasised the need to strengthen intergovernmental relations since, in many instances, service delivery is slowed down due to poor co-ordination among the spheres of government.

The National Planning Commission has an important role to play in shaping the manner in which we do things in government. As Minister Manuel has said on countless occasions, his portfolio will help us develop a long-term plan which will impact on the organisation and capacity of the state as we seek to improve our ability to tackle the challenges of modest growth, employment, service delivery and human capital development. Thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, could the Deputy President tell us whether the government is considering implementing a single public service for all the three spheres of government, or is it considering engaging with other political parties to end the deployment of party cadres into the public service?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, indeed, the government is ceased with the matter of processing the establishment of a single public service; that's work in progress. With regard to the second part of the question, in all countries parties go to elections, and the party that leads government has a right to deploy in strategic senior managerial positions those who are committed and understand the manifesto of that particular party.

In countries such as the United States there is, in fact, a book the size of a telephone directory, which identifies the posts that change with the change of the governing party. Everyone understands that at that level, particularly at the senior strategic level, if the party, which would have appointed them into those posts, loses elections, they move out. It is understood; it's established.

In the United Kingdom, UK, the public service bureaucrats prepare two booklets. If there are three parties, as was the case recently, they would prepare three booklets based on the manifestos of the parties contesting elections. They then lock up those books. Whichever party comes in, they pull those books out and say that that's the programme to be implemented.

Therefore this is not unique to South Africa. What we should, perhaps, be taking into account is the level because our senior management positions are at the level of directors-general, which are known as permanent secretaries in other countries. They are called permanent secretaries, and we call them directors-general. Our directors-general come in on contracts for a period no less than five years. Some are able to stay on for 10 years and so on.

I think this is a very critical question, particularly with regards to the stability of the public service. There is a level at which we should always ensure that there is stability and a sense of permanence. However, there is an upper senior level which is really where the political appointees are located. At that level, there should be no debate about the right of any governing party to make appointments.

The assumption that people who are associated or related with one party or the other are inherently inefficient, inexperienced and of low skills, is a wrong assumption. For instance, if we are - like we are in South Africa - a nation of activists, there would be no level at which you would not find people who have one preference or the other in terms of their political affiliation. The point, however, is that if they are public servants, they should act professionally. That is the point that we should all agree to as an important element in the consideration of appointments of public servants. Thank you.

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, the Deputy President is absolutely right about those senior appointments and I don't think one can argue about that; it's an internationally accepted norm. However, does the Deputy President then imply that the appointment of cadres to positions below those levels – regardless of how they are determined - is indeed a practice which should be looked at, and is the government looking at that?

Furthermore, could the Deputy President tell us whether the government is investigating the validity or the bad practice, perhaps, of the state doing business with employees of the state or their families? Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The question of deployment has been satisfactorily replied by the Deputy President. I don't think we should begin to open a debate on that. If you want a debate, you can call for a debate. However, perhaps the Deputy President may want to respond to the last part of the question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I was responding to the question well aware that there are administrative requirements. Any public post is advertised and the requirements are stipulated in the adverts. There are panels and, for instance, even at the level of a director-general, DG, Cabinet follows certain set protocols. For example, the interviewing panel would consist of no less than three Ministers, including a DG from another department, just to ensure that the successful candidate would have gone through a rigorous process. So those are administrative processes that cannot be overridden by simple political appointments.

However, there are posts which are just filled by political appointments. As I said earlier, with regard to such posts, it's a given that the governing party would deal with them in that fashion. What was the second question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What was the last part of your question, Mr Lees?

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, the question was whether the government is looking into the issue of public servants and their role in doing business with the state or members of their families who do business with the state as being a practice that should, perhaps, be outlawed?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that practice is wrong and steps are being taken to ensure that it does not happen. The report of the Auditor-General has revealed that there are public officials who do business or have an interest in companies that do business with their own departments. That is impermissible. It is something that must never be allowed, and there are processes to deal with that challenge.

That also goes for relatives. As you know, the Municipal Finance Management Act also specifically debars relatives of public servants and public officials from doing business with the municipalities. So that's something that is being attended to. Thank you.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, thank you for the opportunity. In terms of one of the narratives of the Public Service Act, the President, the Deputy President, Ministers and Premiers are allowed or provided for to appoint special advisors in various capacities. In terms of an answer to a question that I posed to the Minister of Public Service and Administration, a list was provided, which indicated that 72 special advisors have been appointed to various Ministers, including the President, the Deputy President and, naturally, the Premiers.

Now, I'm happy to see that the Deputy President thought it wise to appoint only one special advisor, contrary to the President and some of the Ministers who have got four. The question that I want to pose to the Deputy President is: In terms of the question posed, what is the role of special advisors in this new dispensation? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, special advisors give special advice on special issues. [Laughter.] That is what they are there for. [Interjections.] These would be men and women who add value and enhance the capacity of the principals to perform because the responsibilities that lie on the shoulders of a head of state are quite onerous. Therefore it is important that there should be a team of people that can ensure that the country is given good and effective leadership. That is why there is no fixed number, as it were, with regard to special advisors. The President can appoint as many special advisors as is required. Thank you.

QUESTION 10

QUESTION 9

Question 10:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, since the inauguration of this administration, I have travelled with a team of Ministers and senior officials to two provinces to witness progress made since the launch of the War on Poverty Campaign in 2008. Communities that we have visited are located in Jacobsdal in the Free State and Lubala village in the Eastern Cape.

During these visits, officials from national, provincial and local government departments take note of issues raised by communities and compile reports. These reports are then processed by relevant government departments using established systems such as the National Integrated Social Information System, Nisis, of the Department of Social Development.

It is on the basis of these reporting mechanisms that verification of household needs and services rendered is conducted. This is also used for referral and follow-up purposes. Individual reports are not presented to Cabinet. Instead, consolidated reports are prepared for Cabinet twice a year. Institutionally, the national task team, consisting of provincial war rooms and representatives from implementing departments, is a forum tasked with the responsibility of processing reports and following up on service delivery issues raised by communities. The same reporting and follow-up mechanism is replicated at provincial and local levels.

In addition to these institutional mechanisms, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and senior officials share their experiences through the anti-poverty interministerial committee which is co-ordinated by the Presidency. Here, consideration is also given to prioritising urgent matters raised by communities.

Our overall assessment is that the War on Poverty Campaign mechanism has helped to highlight the value of clustering services and delivering them as a package to poor communities who often miss out due to a lack of information or the distance between the community and the point of service. Thank you.

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson and Deputy President, the Ten-Year Review report showed defects in our existing antipoverty approaches. It also highlighted the fact that our approach on poverty is undermined by the lack of a common antipoverty strategy, a lack of reliable information about conditions of the poor, a lack of monitoring of antipoverty initiatives, and ad hoc and unco-ordinated services.

We want to check whether the Deputy President would look into the possibility of tabling the reports generated by the Presidency so that Parliament can use them to monitor the progress that our nation is making in the fight against poverty, instead of using reports that are generated by international nongovernmental organisations that have no understanding of the conditions of our people. I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think the idea of the War on Poverty Campaign was to pilot a co-ordinated intervention. Out of that, the reports that are generated would serve a useful purpose if they are indeed shared with Parliament. They can be replicated in all other areas because the critical element in this strategy is co-ordination. When government departments work in silos, the impact is minimal.

I mentioned the Nisis system of Social Development because we may find that recipients of one social grant or the other can benefit. They can actually be assisted if one or two members of that household are identified and given dedicated support in a sustained fashion, particularly if in that household there are people who are trainable, or people who have dropped out of school but can still go back. Such people can be assisted to complete their education because that then has the impact of lifting the household out of the poverty morass. Therefore I think sharing these reports with Parliament can really serve a useful purpose. Thank you.

Mr B A MNGUNI: Chairperson and Deputy President, in instances where there are reports from those visits, does the government have any specific turnaround time in place? Furthermore, in cases where there is no progress or service delivery - according to those reports - are there any sanctions put in place or any measures taken to ensure that service delivery takes place? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in the case of Jacobsdal – just to give you an example, hon members - the pilot programme was launched, and we were able to go back 18 months later to assess the impact and progress made. When we went back to Jacobsdal we found that one old lady, who had been down with TB and had been living in a shack that had no flooring - essentially inhaling dust all the time – had been put on monitored treatment by the Free State Department of Health. This ensured that she actually took her treatment.

While she was on monitored treatment, she was provided with an RDP house that came with potable water, a kitchen sink, a bath tub and a flushing toilet inside the house. The roof was fitted with rain gutters, and she was supplied with a water tank to harvest rainwater by the Department of Agriculture. They also provided her with a tunnel and seeds, and trained her to grow vegetables in her yard.

When we went back 18 months later, she was cured of TB and her garden was green and full of vegetables. She then actually addressed the public meeting as a motivational speaker, and encouraged other women to join a similar programme.

So, to me, this is a case of how - with the correct identification of a potential change agent in a household - the conditions of these households can be improved. In this way, the members of such households can be pulled out of the clutches of poverty. Thank you.

QUESTION 11

QUESTION 10

Question 11

IsiZulu:

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Sihlalo, mangibonge kuMntwana uMangethe.

English:

It has been reported by the Moral Regeneration Movement, MRM, that they are steadily making inroads into the social disintegration among the youth. To achieve this, the Moral Regeneration Movement engages young people in social dialogues which address various issues such as social integration and the role of families in moulding social values.

In order to gauge the true extent of the overall impact of the MRM programme, the Department of Arts and Culture has commissioned a formal evaluation. The outcomes of this review will enable us to share evidence-based details of the success of the MRM in this regard, including areas requiring improvement.

Having said this, I wish to remind all hon members that reversing the social disintegration of youth is a collective responsibility which should never be outsourced solely to teachers, government or any other nongovernmental organisation. Disintegration begins at home, and, therefore, reintegration should first happen there as well. We have a responsibility to nurture our children and guide them as they enter adulthood and make life-altering decisions. It all begins with you and me. I thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, could the Deputy President tell us whether government and/or the Moral Regeneration Movement have a view on, one, the impact of the 3,1 million unemployed young South Africans on social integration; two, the appropriates of national Treasury's proposed youth wage subsidy that was expected to create half a million youth jobs in two years; and, three, the fact that Treasury's promised discussion document on the policy is now more than two months late. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in an endeavour to instil or inculcate positive values that seek to build rather than to destroy, morally and otherwise, the Moral Regeneration Movement engages with youth across the board; it does not only target the 3 million unemployed youth. Therefore, as I said, the review will indicate in detail to us whether they are succeeding or not.

With regard to the subsidy that was announced by the Minister of Finance, that is work in progress. He is still working on how it is going to be implemented. Therefore I am unable to give you a detailed response in that regard since it is work in progress from his side. That takes care of the third part of the question as well. Thank you.

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, I think the hon Deputy President was quite right when he said that this whole process starts with each one of us. In that light, would the hon deputy President agree with me that, with regard to the moral degeneration of the youth, the prevalence of single-parent households is an issue that needs to be dealt with?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, well, you know, these are moral issues. Some of the single parents are occasioned by the misdemeanours of adults who are taking advantage of younger people, including the learners. Our efforts should, really, be targeted at ensuring that no child in our country should be denied the opportunity to develop into a wholesome and responsible human being simply because of the mistakes of the parents or parent. That should be the focus of our efforts.

The extent of the phenomenon of single parents reflects the deeper problem in our society, and I think we should address it. Let me just use an illustration. Let's say, one has a toothache that causes an abscess. If the dentist tells that individual that his or her tooth is rotten and should be extracted, the dentist will first ensure that he or she treats the abscess before extracting the rotten tooth, whereas the main problem is the rotten tooth. Therefore we must also ensure that children of single parents are not prejudiced in any way.

We must address the needs of children of single parents and give them the love and support that they deserve. The reason for this is that, perhaps, amongst them there might be someone who could be the captain of Bafana Bafana in the near future. We must deal with whatever circumstances that might have occasioned the delivery of that child. In other words, the parent as well should be given support if he or she is someone who can still be assisted in the manner I described earlier on. We should allow that because, if the single parent becomes a good citizen, we will all end up with a happier nation. I thank you.

QUESTION 12

QUESTION 11

Question 12:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon Lees, as I have reported in the National Assembly, I'm concerned about the number of unanswered questions in both Houses of Parliament. Ministers had to report to me regarding the reasons for their failure to reply to a number of questions posed last year and indicate the steps that they were going to take to ensure that this did not reoccur. From this exercise, it became apparent that in certain cases capacity could be improved.

I table a report at each Cabinet meeting on the number of unanswered questions in both Houses. At the request of the Speaker of the National Assembly, I've also written to all Ministers with regard to unanswered questions from the first term. As Ministers are directly accountable to Parliament, it is also up to the House to discuss measures it should take to ensure that questions are answered.

The issue of responding to parliamentary questions was not included in the performance contracts of members of the executive, but it is a matter that could be considered when the performance contracts are reviewed next year. I've reason to believe that this issue is being addressed, and that very soon we will have fewer instances of questions remaining unanswered beyond due dates. Thank you.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, regarding the second part of the question, could the hon Deputy President tell us what was the rationale behind the decision not to sign performance agreement contracts with Deputy Ministers?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, this was the first time that performance contracts were signed with Ministers. Twelve outcomes were identified, and those serve as a basis for the performance contracts. What I'm saying is that these contracts are going to be reviewed annually. If the measures that are introduced to try and get questions to be responded to do not produce the desired results, then it is quite possible that we could include it as a thirteenth outcome. It would then find its way into the new contracts.

For now, we are confident that there is already marked improvement in a number of Ministries. The outstanding questions aren't too many, and we now try to keep a clean sheet. There are Ministries that are still struggling. We've also noted that where directors-general are involved in ensuring that questions are responded to, there's marked improvement, and we're trying to get all Ministries to learn from that experience. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Hon Chairperson, the reason why I stood up is that I wanted to say that the Deputy President has answered all my follow-up questions. That's why I have been so quiet and did not ask any question. [Interjections.]

Mr O DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, further arising out of the hon Deputy President's reply, I just want to know if the office of the Deputy President is prepared to make performance contracts of the executive available to the public as well?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, the contracts are actually between Ministers and the President. I only sign as a witness to the fact that the parties are entering into a contract.

This question has been put to the President before. He did say that, at the right time, he will make them available to the public.

The Council adjourned at 15:55

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