Hansard: Replies by Deputy President Kgalema Motlante to Questions for Oral Reply : NCOP

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 24 Aug 2010

Summary

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES


START OF DAY

WEDNESDAY, 25 AUGUST 2010

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

___________________

The Council met at 14:02

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

Announcements

Start of Day

VISIT BY MR T MATSUMOTO AND HIS EXCELLENCY T OZAWA

ILL HEALTH OF CHIEF WHIP AND APPOINTMENT OF ACTING CHIEF WHIP

(Announcements)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I wish to recognise in the gallery the delegation from the National Diet of Japan, led by Mr T Matsumoto, MP, and accompanied by His Excellency Mr T Ozawa, the Ambassador of Japan to the Republic of South Africa. [Applause.]

The second thing that I want to announce to you is that the hon Chief Whip is not well. She was admitted to hospital yesterday and I have been to the hospital to see her last night. The appointed Acting Chief Whip will be hon Mazosiwe. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Question 13:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good afternoon, hon Chairperson and hon members. I will respond to the question asked by Mr D A Worth. Since 1994 one of government's top priorities has been the eradication of violence against women and children. Government has unequivocally committed itself to reducing violence against women and children.

Our legislative framework to protect women and children is comprehensive. These include measures to tighten the bail laws and minimum sentences for, among others, crimes against women and children in the Domestic Violence Act and the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters) Amendment Act, which brought about a comprehensive and extensive review and amendment of the law relating to sexual offences. The Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Bill currently before the National Assembly, in particular, focuses on women and children, since victims of trafficking often end up being victims of sexual exploitation and child labour.

Various government departments have put measures in place to facilitate the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act. For instance, resources have been made available for the development of policies and programmes, outreach and education, training, the hiring of personnel, the establishment of Family Court centres, and the 16 Days of Activism of No Violence against Women and Children campaigns.

The theme for this Women's Month and, indeed, for the entire year is: "Working together for equal opportunities and progress for all women". This theme clearly highlights the need for close collaboration among all stakeholders to accelerate responses to the challenges faced by women - especially rural women - and girls and women with disabilities.

Gender-based violence is a complex societal problem that demands an integrated and multifaceted response. We need to investigate and address both the casual and influencing factors; we need to encourage reporting; and we need to accelerate the transformation of our criminal justice system to ensure effective and successful management of cases of gender-based violence.

While a sound legislative framework exists in this country to support and protect women and children from gender-based violence, it is giving material effect to the legislative provisions that poses the greatest challenge. Much more needs to be done if we are to be successful in creating an environment where women and children can feel safe and move around freely without anxiety or fear. The focus in future needs to be more on the implementation of our laws and policies, which is not always easy - especially in the prevailing economic climate.

With respect to gender equality, government enacted the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 to achieve equity in the workplace. Such equity must be achieved through the elimination of discrimination against women and ensuring equitable representation by women in all occupational categories.

Furthermore, government adopted a target of 50% representation of women at all levels of decision-making in all spheres of government. The country is on track towards achieving this target, and this is clearly reflected in both the executive and administrative levels in the country. However, the country is still facing challenges in achieving these targets in the private sector. I thank you for your attention.

Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Deputy President, for your detailed reply. In the context of my question and your reply, in your opinion, how do we manage or get that Domestic Violence Act to be more effectively implemented? We have this wonderful Bill, but it is certainly not being implemented to its fullest extent. What are your comments on that, Deputy President?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It's actually us who should answer that question because we have got to monitor the implementation. However, I don't deny the Deputy President the opportunity to respond, if he wishes to.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, I think the challenge arises precisely because, in a domestic situation, the perpetrator and the victim are often people who are related. Certainly, in African communities, this is what happens: in families, once there's abuse of whatever kind, the uncles, aunts and other family members come to the fore and mediate. In the majority of cases they advise against such incidents being reported to law enforcement units. They tend to treat it more as an internal family matter under the illusion that the prestige and good name of the family would be dragged through the mud by bringing such incidents into the open. I think that is what tends to blunt the effectiveness of this Act. Thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether, in light of the increased incidence of rape in South Africa, government will consider reinstating the specialised units in the South African Police Force to deal with such crimes.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Harris. If we go by the performance of the criminal justice system during the Fifa World Cup, it should be possible for us to apprehend offenders, including those who engage in rape. I think the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development has assured the country that the special courts would remain in place, and that the additional 40 000 police officers would remain on the beat.

I'm sure hon members are aware that in the Eastern Cape this week we woke up to reports of the most horrendous deeds that were visited upon a family. An old, old grandparent and grandchildren were slaughtered. Those offenders are appearing in court today. I think if we continue to do deal with offences of whatever nature with this kind of efficiency and speed, we should be able to deal even with the perpetrators of rape, without having a specialised unit. I suppose, out of practical experience, if we find that a much more specialised unit would be effective to deal with rape offences, that would be considered favourably. Thank you.

Mr O DE BEER: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President it is a well-known fact that women who lack adequate formal education and skills will remain subservient to males who are better educated and skilled. Therefore I wish to ask: What big steps has government put in place for the women students who completed their education to skill them on how to protect themselves against violence and rape?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, I think the government can only do so much to ensure that the laws that have been enacted are understood by all citizens - regardless of their levels of education - so that these should be used as a form of protection against abuse as well as rape. The difficulty, as I indicated earlier on, is that these are offences which, in the main, happen within family settings rather than just out there in the public space. Because of that, there are no early warnings or signals that indicate that such an offence is about to be committed. If you add into the mix substance abuse and so on, then the challenge becomes even more complex.

But, generally speaking, the government would like to ensure that all women are aware, first and foremost, of their protections and are able to read the indicators. Sometimes it becomes possible to read the intentions of certain approaches. Of course, government alone will not be able to be omnipresent and reach out to everyone. This is work that we ought to do in partnership with community-based organisations, NGOs and other kinds of formations. Thank you.

Question 14

Question 13

Question 14:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, in order to address the exceptional challenges of HIV/Aids, tuberculosis and other related infectious diseases, the heads of state of the then Organisation of African Unity held a special summit in Abuja, Nigeria from 24 to 27 April 2001, specifically devoted to this issue. The summit adopted a declaration in which the heads of state and governments pledged to set a target of allocating 15% of their governments' annual budgets to the improvement of the health sector.

No specific amount was pledged for HIV/Aids. The declaration merely stated that an appropriate and adequate portion of this amount should be put at the disposal of the national commissions or councils for the fight against HIV/Aids, tuberculosis and other infectious diseases. Although the declaration is not a binding document and the 15% of the annual budget was a target, our government, the South African government, is close to achieving this goal in that health expenditure as a percentage of total government spending, excluding the public entities, is currently in the region of 13%.

In 2009-10, over 11% of the health budget was spent on HIV/Aids in the public health sector. However, this may be an underestimate, as it excludes the hospitalisation costs of people with HIV/Aids. The operations of the South African National Aids Council, Sanac, secretariat are currently funded through the national Department of Health's budget. In addition, provinces allocate funding to support provincial Aids councils and many municipalities support local Aids councils. It is difficult to quantify the total amount of funding that is spent on the functioning of the national, provincial and district Aids councils. The total amount of funds set aside in the national Department of Health's budget for Sanac operations for the 2010-11 financial year is R4,7 million.

Decisions regarding the Sanac programme of action and, therefore, expenditure are taken at many levels. At a strategic level, decisions are taken by the Sanac Plenary, which is chaired by the Deputy President and co-chaired by a member of civil society, currently Mr Mark Heywood. At an operational level, decisions are taken by the chief executive officer of Sanac, Dr Nono Simelela. At present, the secretariat is working with the national Department of Health to determine its budget requirements for the next Medium Term Expenditure Framework period. The department therefore is a conduit for funds for Sanac until it becomes an independent legal entity with its own board.

Public sector HIV/Aids expenditure is spent at all levels of the health system: district, province and national. In addition, all government departments have programmes aimed at HIV prevention. These programmes are co-ordinated by the Department of Public Service and Administration on behalf of government, and the Department of Public Service and Administration represents all government departments as a sector in Sanac. I thank you.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, my follow-up question to the Deputy President is that life skills in the development of HIV/Aids are critical to empower women and the communities to combat the fight against this pandemic. Certain provinces in South Africa underspent on this programme. Deputy President, what is the government doing to address this situation? What is your comment? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, as you know, the government does not take kindly to rollovers. In these difficult times, any rollovers, particularly in this area of work, would be criticised very severely by government, because resources to do work, particularly the prevention of new infections, are very difficult to come by. Therefore, with the limited resources available, we do urge provincial governments to ensure that this money is spent on what it was allocated for. Of course, the NCOP would be within its rights, as a House, to criticise any government level or sphere that does not spend all of its allocated resources for health purposes. If there are rollovers, these would be clearly reflected in the Auditor-General's report. I think that is a joint responsibility, from our side, certainly, as national government, as a structure. As I said, I chair the South African National Aids Council. On a regular basis, we try and nudge all sectors to do what is required of them, because the emphasis of our efforts is on prevention.

Prevention can only be attained if the general public is well aware of the factors that cause our people to be vulnerable to new infections. The idea is to prevent new infections and to treat those who are already infected. That is why there is a good campaign being run in the province of KwaZulu-Natal on medical male circumcision, precisely because it has been proved that medical male circumcision prevents new infection by up to 60%. It is not the total answer, but it is a step in the right direction. That campaign is going fairly well in the province of KwaZulu-Natal and other parts of the country. Thank you.

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, the Deputy President has indicated to us that the expenditure in 2009-10 on health was 13% of total expenditure. Given that, nine years ago, we made a commitment to aim at 15%, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether that is still our aim. If it is, has he any idea of when we might get to the 15%?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, this declaration was a commitment towards the improvement of the health sector in its totality. As you know, hon members, health is one of our priorities, together with education, the fight against crime and corruption, the creation of more jobs, and rural development. So, because it is a priority, we believe that we should be able to reach this target and surpass it in the next few years.

Some of the initiatives that are taken to improve the health sector, such as the reopening of the colleges for training nurses, would ensure that our primary health-care system is up and running once again. You know that in this country we have a good reputation for training well-qualified, efficient nurses. That is why other countries, like Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom, have been recruiting and poaching our nurses. We want to go back to ensuring that we train, once again, nurses that would ensure that our primary health-care system works efficiently. So, I have no doubt in my mind that we should be able to reach this target of 15% sooner rather than later. Thank you.

QUESTION 15

Question 14

Question 15:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, as we heard in the debate in the Joint Sitting last week, the South African government was inspired by the enthusiasm displayed by people from all races and walks of life of this country in the build up to and throughout the course of the 2010 Fifa World Cup.

To capitalise on the positive mood that prevailed in the run-up to and throughout the event, the South African government is in liaison with the International Marketing Council to conceptualise a programme aimed at building on the enthusiasm of South Africans which was expressed in their cohesion as a nation united under a common flag and anthem.

This programme will seek to develop and entrench a nation brand of ubuntu, of unity through our diversity, of innovation and creativity, and of possibilities. A campaign has already been developed and will be launched within the next few weeks.

In addition, government supports other initiatives currently underway by the private sector which encourage South Africans to build on this spirit even after the World Cup.

Some private businesses continue to infuse the flying of the national flag in their campaigns and we encourage others to do likewise. We have seen the flying of the flag over the past days, especially in the build up to and during the friendly match between our national football team, Bafana Bafana, and their Ghanaian counterparts, the Black Stars, on 11 August 2010. I thank you.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, given the fact that we are all in agreement that we need to nurture the national pride and unity that seized our nation, specifically during the 2010 Soccer World Cup, I want to ask the hon Deputy President whether he foresees that any written commitments are going to be called for by government from all identified role players, so that we can sustain the momentum until the task of nation-building is completed in all aspects. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, indeed, what is first and foremost required of us is to draw the relevant lessons from the experience of hosting the World Cup in the manner in which we did. Then we must apply those lessons to tackling the stubborn challenges that face us.

For instance, the preparations for this Fifa World Cup enabled us to co-ordinate activity between the three spheres of government – national, provincial and the host cities, which is local government – to ensure that we were able to deliver infrastructure within set timelines.

I think, if we were to tackle the challenge of providing bulk economic and social infrastructure for communities in the rural areas as well as the townships – by that I mean ensuring that the roads are tarred, potable water is available and accessible in the homesteads, a sewerage system is rolled out and mud schools are replaced with brick and mortar school buildings with sports facilities – if we were to tackle these kinds of projects, identify them, communicate the programme, roll them out in the same spirit and mobilise the broadest cross-section of the population behind them, I think we would be able to deliver and, by doing so, be creating the environment for much better national cohesion.

Two weeks ago I was in Bloemfontein in the Free State, and...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Vrystaat? Vrystaat, ja. Vrystaat. [Laughter.]

I was in the Vrystaat, and one of the places that I had to check on is an old township in Kroonstad, called Marabastad. This is an old, old township. The buildings were disintegrating. The houses there were disintegrating out of sheer old age. But new ones were being built and I was really pleased that part of the white community in Kroonstad – those of them who are homeless and without their own homes – applied for those houses. Seventy-four of them were allocated houses and they are going to be living in Marabastad.

So, that is where we are with provision of bulk economic and social infrastructure. We are advancing in terms of national cohesion. Thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether the government has instituted any programmes to ensure that we sustain the national pride and unity that arises from the continued and regular use of the five stadiums that we built at a cost of billions of rands to the South African taxpayer.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, that is a work in progress because, as you know, these stadia belong to the local municipalities, the metros, and there are sporting associations that would like to enter into arrangements. So, it's early days. Discussions involving various associations of sport and the local municipalities are in progress.

I am also aware that the Ministries of Sport and Recreation as well as Arts and Culture have initiated processes of developing programmes which would ensure that these stadia do not become white elephants. There are also plans to develop the precincts around the stadia, so that there should always be activity around them.

Therefore the utilisation of these stadia will be enhanced by the outcomes of these deliberations. As I said, this is work in progress; we should, perhaps in the next session, be able give you much more specific answers to this question. Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, Mr Acting President, one of the most effective counteractions against vigilantism is organised crime fighting. Now, one of the best ever rural crime-fighting or crime-prevention units that we have ever had in the country is the commandos.

Now, we all now that there were negative associations with the commandoes and we can't argue with that. But, at the same time, we must acknowledge the good work they did, especially on the farms, protecting farm workers, farm owners and farmers alike.

Has the government any plan to substitute that, over and above the Police Service Reservists, which do not seem to work as well as the commandoes did?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Watson, we have passed that question. We are dealing with Question 15 – the 2010 Fifa World Cup. That's what we are dealing with.

Mr A WATSON: [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes.

QUESTION 16:

Question 15

Question 16:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, there is no awareness programme that I am aware of specifically to name and shame persons who participate in criminal activities.

Our programmes run by the South African Police Service, SAPS, at national and provincial level and through police stations include as a consistent message in their engagement with communities that crime must be reported either at the police stations or through the Crime Stop telephone number.

In addition, SAPS have entered into a partnership with Primedia for the establishment of the crime-line website and sms-line that also allows members of the public to report criminal activity through these mediums.

Encouraging communities to break the silence, especially about gender-based violence and crimes against children, also forms part of the messaging used in crime awareness campaigns. Communities are also called upon to work with the police to combat crime.

Initiatives are undertaken with the Community Police Forums, CPFs, but communication tools such as community radio, newspaper articles, door-to-door campaigns and direct engagement with stakeholder groups, for example school visits, are also used.

The awareness programmes include specific messages to encourage communities to report crime to the SAPS and not to take the law into their own hands by becoming involved in vigilantism. Our police act against vigilantism and ensure that such actions are publicised to serve as a deterrent to individuals in communities who want to take the law into their own hands.

The Ministry of Police, through the civilian Secretariat for Police, has also established a partnership unit which explores partnerships with communities and civil society. I thank you.

Mr A WATSON: My apologies once again, Chair. I misread that section 2 was part of Question 15, but will the Deputy President now consider my question as part of Question 16? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, commandos were a phenomenon of a particular time and place in our country. That does not mean that the method applied by the commandos should be thrown out with bath water. From every experience in given circumstances, we should be able to draw the relevant lessons and employ them because crime is a scourge that we must combat and defeat wherever it manifests itself. The more communities are organised to rebut crime and to work hand in glove with law enforcement units, the better for their own safety and security.

Yes, indeed, if the farming community as well as farm hands and workers come together to organise themselves into units under the guidance and supervision of the law enforcement units, that shouldn't pose a problem at all. I am absolutely certain that the Minister of Police would be more than happy to consider that and give his blessing as well as guidance to their establishment. They may go by a different name, rather than commandos... But if they are inclusive and aim at really combating crime by keeping the farm lands as safe as possible, then why not? I am sure they would be favourably considered. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, with regard to the question to the Deputy President, wouldn't it be a good idea to get former inmates who have now been released, and possibly with officers from Correctional Services, to speak to schools and the youth at the meetings to sensitise the youth to what can happen if they commit crime, and also to alert them to the fact that it is not nice to sit in jail. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, yes, indeed there is a programme already in place. Last month, I was in KwaZulu-Natal at the Moral Regeneration Movement Conference, and one of the key speakers was a former inmate who, while in prison, improved his studies. He studied law. He is a writer of several books and already produced three novels. He spoke and explained to the audience and participants how he got into trouble with the law. He was sentenced to 15 years and he is now out on parole. They even had two different choirs of inmates performing musical items at that conference.

I know that such programmes exist in a number of areas; some of them play football against teams in the community and, in the process, they are able to advise particularly the young ones against the challenges of criminal activities and that, indeed, crime does not pay. That is a core message that they are spreading. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Deputy President a question that is actually linked to the one on women and violence against women. We actually have a problem when people who rape are let out on bail. Regarding the second statement, that of naming and shaming in the communities, is there any programme in place that will deny rapists bail?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, I will allow the linkage. I know you are taking a chance, but I will allow it.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Unfortunately, our Bill of Rights provides for all South Africans who are arrested for one offence or the other, to be charged within 48 hours or be granted bail because it is against detention without trial. Once somebody is charged, such a person can always apply for bail. The only reasons normally adduced by the state for opposing bail is when an offender is a flight risk; if there is the possibility of a person fleeing the country and never presenting himself.

In the majority of cases, there is not much that the state can do to prevent the courts from granting bails to any offender. However, where there is perhaps suspicion or even grounds for believing that such a person would interfere with the victims and witnesses, the victims would either be provided with protection - and the state can use it as an argument that if this person is released on bail, then he could interfere with witnesses. The court would rarely be persuaded by such argument, but the state is duty bound to provide the necessary protection for that period. But once the matter is heard and finalised by the courts, there is not much that can be done about it. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, that deals with the follow-up questions on that question. Just before we move to Question 17, I see the young generation on the gallery. Welcome to the National Council of Provinces. We are dealing with questions today. I hope one of you in the future will be a Member of Parliament. I would follow that up, but I don't know from which school you are. They didn't tell me.

Question 17

Question 16

Question 17:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, hon members, it is always encouraging to note that hon members of this House are closely following developments in the delivery and performance of government's antipoverty programmes. Let me state upfront that the pace of delivery is not always as fast as we desire and often the impact is not immediately visible.

However, this inspires us to roll up our sleeves and work harder in order to lift our communities out of poverty. Indeed, government has rolled out several antipoverty initiatives in all provinces, including KwaZulu-Natal. These range from the Expanded Public Works Programme, Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, the Community Works Programme, the Community Development Workers Programme, the National Rural Youth Service Programme, Zibambele Early Childhood Development, and a number of other initiatives that support poor communities to earn livelihoods.

These are all in addition to the provision of free basic services and other social protection measures that cushion people. The cumulative effect of all these initiatives is the constant chipping away at the massive problem of poverty that we have in our midst. It is my unwavering belief that sum total effect of these initiatives is having an impact on the lives of poor people in our country.

We are taking children to early childhood development facilities. We are ensuring that children whose parents cannot afford to pay school fees are going to school. We are ensuring that those who need antiretroviral therapy are getting the necessary medicines. We are getting communities to work for the betterment of their people and their personal lives. We are getting our unemployed youth to work.

The impact of all these initiatives cannot be measured in terms of days, weeks or months. We believe it is a long journey towards a poverty-free KwaZulu-Natal and South Africa. The commitments we have made to these communities are being met on a daily basis. I need to inform hon members that these communities are generally categorised into immediate commitments, medium-term and long-term commitments.

We ensure that immediate commitments, such as taking a child to school, putting a child on a child support grant, issuing of vital registration documents, social relief of distress, health assessments, linking individuals to available opportunities are fulfilled in the shortest possible time. The medium-term commitments certainly take a little more time and so do the long-term ones.

What is most important is that none of the commitments made by government will be ignored or remain unattended to. We will do our utmost to follow-up on commitments made to the poor communities of KwaZulu-Natal. We will be transparent with our successes as well as challenges confronted in fulfilling the commitments. We have delivered on some of the commitments we have made to the poor communities of KwaZulu-Natal and the rest of the country. We are following up on those that are outstanding. All spheres of government are aware of what needs to be done to meet all the commitments made to the poor communities.

I chair an antipoverty inter-ministerial committee, which reviews the progress we are making with antipoverty initiatives. Last but not least, I call upon all hon members in this House to join us in the fight against poverty and to monitor progress and identify where we can do better. I thank you for your attention.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, the Deputy President referred to the government making progress against the massive problem of poverty in South Africa. I would suggest that millions of South Africans, especially those in rural provinces like the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, who experience grinding poverty on a daily basis, would disagree with him.

I would like to ask him whether government would consider implementing what the DA calls an income support and unemployment grant of R110 per month. Cosatu calls it a basic income grant. I would like to know if the state would consider introducing a grant like that and when last did they do a viability study of a grant like that? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, the last time we were asked to consider the basic income grant, the administration of the proposal was seen as prohibitive. Instead, the approach we follow is that of profiling households. By doing so, we seek to identify poverty-stricken households. We take our data and direction from Stats SA's provincial poverty index.

When we go into those households, we try to identify change agents in each of them. If we find someone who either dropped out of school and did not complete his or her studies but is keen to go back and complete those studies, we then give dedicated support and we monitor such a person's progress. We do this in the belief that unless we identify such change agents and support them, it means poverty will be transmitted from one generation of that family to the next generation. The idea is that there has to be some members of the family who can pull that household out of the morass of poverty.

This is over and above other initiatives, for instance, when there is an aged person who does not have an ID, it is organised for him or her so that that person can source from the pension fund. If there are children, they will be registered for child support grants, and so on. So, all the other grants are awarded, but the idea is that there must be some members of the family who can be assisted in one way or the other.

In some instances, where the house is properly roofed up and all that is required is for the gutters to be fitted onto the house and a water tank to be provided in order to harvest rain water, the Department of Agriculture is able to do that. They can provide that kind of support and help the family. If there are extensive yards, they can help people to till the ground, cultivate it and produce vegetables to supplement the family supply of fresh vegetables. We have seen how those kinds of interventions assist in that regard.

This weekend we went to Plettenberg Bay with the Premier of the province, Ms Hellen Zille. We visited an area in the morning where in one of the households there lived five different families. The main tenant of the house was a Rastafarian gentleman who had taken some herbs. He told us there was a whole community of them, living elsewhere in another part of the township. He requested that he be given plough fields where he would go and till, together with the rest of his community. We persuaded him that his yard was big enough and that he should begin there. We told him that we would assist the rest of his community when we find them there, but that he should till that piece of land he was staying on. It turned out that he had rented out space in the yard and his sub-tenants where paying him R150 per family. He had an income stream.

What I am trying to say is that it is helpful to have an understanding of each household's profile and intervene in that way because a general basic income scheme means that you give R100 to everyone, from the ones who need it and those who don't. From those who need it, you then find another way of deducting it from their income. The administration of it proved to be a bit prohibitive. I am sorry I was a bit long-winded. I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The name of the school visiting us is Fondwe Primary School, from Limpopo. It seems as if they are now leaving. Thank you very much.

Mr A LEES: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, it is indeed gratifying to see you here today, given the extent of your travels over the last week. But it is great to hear about your travels too, Sir. The question I would like to ask you, given your answer to the previous question, is with regard to the food parcels which are indiscriminately distributed among communities, many to needy families, but others to whoever happens to be around. This seems to happen on a fairly regular basis, particularly as we approach an election, as we are next year. Does the Deputy President think this is a good thing and really a poverty alleviation measure? I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Lees, I would phrase your question differently, rather than say "discriminately", because we don't have proof of that.

Mr A LEES: Chairperson, I said "indiscriminately".

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Indiscriminately?

Mr A LEES: Mr Chair, I apologise for putting it badly. By saying indiscriminately, I mean there is no selection process. Whoever happens to be there, gets it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I understand it, food parcels are distributed by the Ministry of Social Development. They follow the same approach of identifying the people who need such food parcels. Some of them are people who are HIV positive and on treatment and therefore need to receive food parcels before taking their treatment.

If there is any evidence that these are used to buy votes, that is something that we will condemn upfront. The food parcels must always be given as relief to the needy, to those who are indigent and would otherwise go without food if they did not receive such food parcels. They were never meant for buying votes.

In any case, I think it would be a futile effort to try and buy votes by providing people with food parcels because they will eat and once they have had their fill, they will make their choices in accordance with their preferences. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I recognise the Speaker of the Eastern Cape Legislature, Mr Xasa, who is our visitor. You are welcome into the NCOP. Mr Mlenzana, I thought you had your hand up? Thank you very much.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Chairperson, appreciating that fighting poverty is everybody's business, I wish to ask the Deputy President if any of the universities and/or technicons have been involved in coming up with fresh ideas and new modes of doing things to make antipoverty community projects viable, sustainable and profitable? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed, there are a number of universities that pay attention to the efforts of combating poverty. They have come up with a number of very useful proposals, in particular with regards to the utilisation of the land. I know that the University of Witwatersrand and the University of Stellenbosch, among others, have come up with a number of very good innovative ways of treating very barren soil and utilising the limited supply of water for irrigation. They also recommended vegetables and plants that help to enhance the ecosystem. These methods have now been incorporated into the work done by the Ministry of Rural Development, trying to spread the method to communities that would otherwise not have access to such information and knowledge. I thank you.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, we appreciate your frankness and we know you as an honest man in many things, also in the answer you gave us this afternoon regarding the issue of the buying of votes. What would your position be in terms of the current situation which transpired in the Northern Cape, where bi-elections are taking place today. Not more than a week ago, the Department of Social Services actually closed offices. Officials of those departments where instructed to specifically go and canvass for the ANC, including the handing out of food parcels.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If the hon member has such information, I think he should drop the Public Protector a line to go into that. The Public Protector is authorised to do that and has the powers to investigate that. Whatever the outcomes are, we will live with them here. I thank you.

Question 18

Question 17

Question 18:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, hon members, no final decision has been made as to what South Africa's assistance to Somalia will be.

One of the most important aspects, as acknowledged by the Africa leaders at the Kampala Summit, is that the military intervention alone would not resolve the Somali conflict. A comprehensive approach that addresses the political process, security and piracy is needed. As a result it is crucial that the search for a comprehensive, all-inclusive solution is stepped up.

The major challenge is broadening participation in the Somali political process to include an overwhelming number of parties that will lead to an all-inclusive ceasefire agreement. This has to be done in co-operation with other African partners, in particular the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, IGAD - an organisation to which Somalia belongs.

The African Union, through the chair of the commission, approached South Africa to assist in relation to the contribution of troops, provision of equipment to support the troops, assistance to the maritime component, or funding for the peace mission, all of which would have financial and human resources implications for South Africa. In view of these implications, it is important that the matter first be discussed by our Cabinet before a decision is taken.

In the meantime, South Africa will consult with other interested parties on Somalia, like the IGAD countries and the African Union mission in Somalia, on how best to support the political process and to find the lasting solution in Somalia. I thank you.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Thank you, Deputy President, for your detailed reply. I would like to put a follow-up question: does this mean we are not giving in to pressure by the United States of America, USA, and the European Union, EU, for South Africa to go to Somalia? I ask this because the perception exists that we are being pressurised by them. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, we will no give into any such pressure, if it exists at all. This is a matter that was discussed at the summit of the AU in Kampala, and we will consider it in that context. Thank you.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, I would like to ask if the Deputy President believes that the instability in Somalia poses a security risk or a terror threat to either South Africa or the international community.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed, I do believe that the situation and instability in Somalia pose a security threat to the whole continent. As you know, even in the deep seas there are pirates who are known to have hijacked a number of oil tankers for ransom. That is why the AU recognised that it's a challenge which would not admit to just simple militaristic intervention. It requires or demands a much more comprehensive response, precisely because of its nature. As South Africa, we have to be circumspect regarding the role we play because we would not want to invite onto our shores problems that are extraneous. For that reason, we will play our role within the AU and United Nations, UN. Thank you.

Mr D B FELDMAN: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, the problems of our continent very quickly become our own problem as people migrate south to run away from their countries' problems. I therefore wish to ask: to what extent is government using the Pan-African Parliament and the African Union to deal with political instability, tension and conflict to help afflicted Africans north of our borders. I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That's a very big, broad question which doesn't have to do with Somalia but with peace and stability on the continent. I leave it to the Deputy President, if he would like to respond to it.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I concur, hon Chairperson. I'm in difficulty as well. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy President, if the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, and its personnel get involved in Somalia, it will probably be at a higher level of intensity than in any other conflict area we have been involved in in Africa. We will have to be prepared to take casualties. It's a different, insurgency type of operation there. I want to ask the Deputy President: can I trust that before we commit any defence force personnel, they will have the required logistical background needed for what is really going on there and will they be trained for that type of operation? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I said, there is no decision to deploy the SANDF personnel to Somalia. Somalia is a very difficult proposition in the sense that there is no state in Somalia. Therefore it is not as if you'd be going there to assist the state to deal with a challenge or a problem. The mission itself would not be a simple peace-keeping mission because there is no peace. There is no state. The place is under the domain of a number of families who have their own armies. It is really a much bigger problem than we've ever dealt with before. So, I think before any decision is arrived at, all of these factors would have to be taken into account. Thank you.

Mr A LEES: Deputy President, given the dire situation that you described in – sorry, I have forgotten the country – Somalia, is it the position of South Africa to discourage our citizens from travelling to that country and is that advice being given to people who make contact with government departments regarding travel to Somalia?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, as I said, there is no state in Somalia, so there is not even direct transport to Somalia. As a state, we certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to travel to Somalia because, in the first place, yes, it is a failed state. There is nothing.

As you know, historically, Somalia was two different colonies; one part was a British colony and the other a French colony. After independence they merged to create Somalia as we know it today. The one part is predominantly Muslim, and the other part is predominantly Christian and English-speaking.

At one point, war broke out between them and the citizenry of the former British colony was almost exterminated. They survived; they have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps; they have a thriving economy; they have Parliament; they have their own army; and they call themselves Somaliland. This part, which is recognised as Somalia, is without a state and there is utter chaos, every day.

At the end of last year, they bombed graduates, students who were graduating at universities, and killed them. Last week, they bombed the meeting of what remains as government there. So, it's a difficult, very difficult situation. It is not the kind of problem that can be solved by the region or the continent alone. It is actually a Security Council problem. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 15:23.

END OF DAY


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