Hansard: Appropriation Bill : Debate on Vote No 24 – Police, and Vote No 22 – Independent Complaints Directorate
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 05 May 2010
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
THURSDAY, 6 MAY 2010
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE - CHAMBER OF THE OLD ASSEMBLY
_________________________________
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the Old Assembly at 14:02.
Acting Chairperson Mr M R Mdakane, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 24 – Police, and Vote No 22 – Independent Complaints Directorate:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson ...
IsiZulu:
... Sihlalo, oNgqongqoshe abakhona, oSekela Ngqongqoshe abakhona beholwa ngowamaphoyisa uMn Mbalula, uSihlalo Wekomiti lePhalamende Lamaphoyisa, Mnu Chikunga, ukhomishana wamaphoyisa kazwelonke, uJenene Cele neqembu lakhe, amalungu ahloniphekile, nani nonke., kuyintokozo ukuthula loluhlahlo lwesabelomali lalonyaka, siluthula ngaphansi komgomo esiwushilo uma uqala unyaka siwubekelwa nguMongameli ukuthi ngunyaka wokwenza lo...
English:
... this is the year of action. The fundamental aim of our government is to build a society in which our people will enjoy a dignified and improved quality of life and freedom. Crime and corruption, however, as well as the proliferation of firearms in our society, stand in direct opposition to achieving this noble goal.
Inevitably, freedom does not create itself. Crime does not simply disappear; we must create conditions that will make crime disappear. Our strategic perspective in the fight against crime is mainly premised on two considerations: firstly, that the battle against crime cannot be separated from the war on want; secondly, that the deviant activities of the few amongst us should not be allowed.
As we said, 2010 is the year of action, ensuring that everyone in South Africa is and feels safe. As declared by the President of the Republic, His Excellency Jacob Zuma, on the occasion of the state of the nation address, government will accelerate service delivery. He further made a commitment that the work of government will be measured according to outcomes.
The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster accordingly, is to ensure that all people in South Africa are and feel safe in their homes, places of work and businesses whilst they carry on with their lives. "The people" in this context refers to all law-abiding citizens.
It is important that, today, I reflect on the move we have commenced with towards a single police service. Section 205(2) of the Constitution says:
National legislation must establish the powers and functions of the police service and must enable the police service to discharge its responsibilities effectively, taking into account the requirements of the provinces.
Section 205(3) further states:
The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.
We have tasked the Secretariat of Police to investigate the feasibility of implementing this very constitutional imperative of a single police service in this country. We are mentioning this to sensitise everyone about the commencement of the process. We are under no illusion that this is going to be a protracted process if one takes cognisance of how long it took for us to integrate the Hawks into SAPS.
The transformation of the police must, across the country, focus on the type of police service we want to see. It must ensure that our police service, at all levels, is reflective of the society it polices and the values we wish to promote within our society.
In order to fight crime, and fight it effectively, we need to recruit the right calibre of police officers. Whilst fitness and the ability to operate firearms are some of the essentials, it is in essence discipline, upholding of the Constitution, defending the weak, enforcing the law and being generally upright that should constitute the defining core values of the police. We have, therefore, taken a decision to implement plans to increase the number of police as we have been saying over the period.
During the 2009-10 financial year, the department increased its human resource capacity by employing 9 803 new police trainees, and as you have heard, we have plans to increase the recruitment, but also to focus specifically on specialised areas like detectives.
To emphasise our good-police-officer approach, we are graced in this house by two exemplary police officers from Port Elizabeth, Captain Cornelius Pettit and Detective Warrant Officer Neil Killian. Three weeks ago, following a lengthy investigation, they arrested a suspected druglord. This is something that we have been emphasising lately, that it is important that we get the ringleaders in this drug field. In trying to secure his freedom, this druglord attempted to bribe them with an amount of R1 million each. The officers flatly refused the bribe, and instead, added another charge to the charge sheet. [Applause.]
We also want to recognise and applaud four of our members who were recently released from Sudan following their abduction while they were on duty. The four are: Colonel Aucone, Captain Annett, Sergeant Melanzi and Constable Ramantsi, and they are back in the country. [Applause.]
These four unsung heroes have vowed to go back to Sudan and continue to raise high the South African flag by continuing to serve, with distinction, the region and the continent.
General Cele and I, as the current incumbent chairpersons of the Council of Ministers and Police Chiefs of the Southern Africa Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation, SARPCCO, respectively, shall strive to continue to promote and support our region in peace and stability efforts.
On 12 January this year, a disastrous earthquake struck Port-au-Prince, in Haiti, taking away thousands of lives and destroying infrastructure. As part of the many nations who responded to the relief efforts, we commend our police dog unit members for their swift response in coming to the aid of the people of Haiti. This demonstrates our continued support, as SAPS and a country, to relief efforts to those in need across the globe.
Any police organisation requires capable, innovative and upright leaders to guide its personnel. To this end, we have appointed new leadership to take charge of the SAPS. We have put in place a new national police commissioner, General Bheki Cele, to provide general operational leadership, guidance and direction to the SAPS. [Applause.] He looks disappointed there.
We have also reinforced our intelligence arm with an appointment at national level of Lieutenant-General Mdluli, as Divisional Head of Crime Intelligence.
As government, we took a stance to fight crime, and fight it tough and smart. To realise this objective, certain steps have been undertaken. Amongst these is the transformation of the police ranks to ensure clear lines of command and control while instilling a sense of discipline amongst the members.
It is important to emphasise that the change in police ranks is an operational matter and has no constitutional implications whatsoever. Section 199(1) of the Constitution talks to the police service and so do the Polokwane and prior resolutions of the ruling party. Section 207(1) of the Constitution speaks to the issue of the National Commissioner, and this will continue to be so. There is therefore no desire, from anybody amongst us, to tamper with the policy underpinnings that inform our approach to policing.
The issue of how we mobilise and galvanise the material and attitudinal resources of the police to help to enhance discipline, instil confidence and resolve and uplift the morale within the ranks does not, and should not be interpreted to mean or suggest a policy reorientation.
Transformation should not be viewed in isolation from the other pillars of our strategy, for example, strengthening partnerships with the community to make life difficult for criminals and utilising intelligence as a nerve centre of policing, thereby strengthening the legislative framework. This specifically refers to the strengthening of the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, and the Civilian Secretariat of Police and the review of the entire criminal justice system.
We shall take no chances with the lives of police officers fighting against criminals. We shall also not allow abuses by individual police officers to go unchallenged. To address this we have also strengthened the ICD by appointing Mr Beukman as the head of ICD,
in August 2009.
Whether people judge us from the national elections, the festive season or even the 2009 Fifa Confederations Cup, there is a clear trend that we are making an impact in the fight against crime. Government is in charge and gaining new ground each day.
The review of the Crime Scene Management Standard Operational Procedure has been developed and was completed in January 2010. Processing before Parliament of the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedure) Amendment Bill is at an advanced stage. The Bill has been split into two, and the portfolio committee will speak more on this. They know better as this is their area.
The e-docket system is a key component of the Criminal Justice System, CJS, review. Within the SAPS, the e-docket system has been introduced in 193 police stations around the country, and the scanning of more than 260 000 dockets has been finalised to date. Within the CJS review there is now a process that has been developed to speed up the roll-out of the e-docket system to all stations across the country.
With regard to our fight against corruption, the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, otherwise known as "The Hawks" is currently made up of 2 633 members. We have already appointed Deputy Provincial Commissioners in eight of the nine provinces and additional personnel are currently undergoing vetting processes.
The Hawks have already scored successes in a number of fields in their short time of existence. On 6 July 2009, 287 projects of the former Directorate of Special Operations were transferred to the DPCI. The SAPS now has an effective process of dealing with Organised Crime Projects Investigations.
To date, the following statistics of operations of the DPCI show the following: for organised crime, there have been 3 850 arrests and 573 convictions; for commercial crime, 8 186 arrests and 4 960 convictions. The Hawks have also placed a target for themselves of catching all of the 50 most wanted criminals, starting at the end of last year. To date, 28 of them are in custody and the work continues.
Other notable successes include: a drug laboratory with drugs to the value of R200 million recovered in an operation in Midrand, in August last year; a transactional drug bust to the value of R600 million recovered in Phoenix in September 2009, which included the arrest of two South Africans and four British citizens; and the discovery of a drug lab valued at R1 billion on 4 December 2009.
Other drug busts include the arrest of a school teacher in possession of ephedrine to the value of R35 million in Kempton Park, in February 2010
A drug lab was closed down and drugs to the value of R5,4 million was seized in Benoni in March this year.
I am relating this, because the public may not know about it, simply because we have emphasised the point that we want police to do policing work and not some Hollywood stunts, where, when they go and make arrests, they have to call in the media to bring the cameras with them. They must just be effective.
There have been numerous allegations of fraud cases involving municipalities. Operationally, we remain confident that the Hawks will continue with their successes in fighting organised crime. The successes of the Hawks have proven sceptics wrong.
With regard to crime intelligence, we have over the past year emphasised the important role that crime intelligence needs to play in the fight against crime, and the need to rejuvenate our crime intelligence to service all aspects of policing. A strategy which will include utilisation of visible policing personnel for the provision of intelligence, especially during patrols, is being developed.
During last year's Budget Vote we committed ourselves to increasing by 19% the number of detectives at levels one to seven by the end of the financial year. We have surpassed this target and our growth now stands at 22,4%. This demonstrates the seriousness with which we take the criminal justice system's outcomes.
In this growth we have 20 022 detectives as we speak. When taking into account 2 153 who are currently undergoing basic training, the total comes to 22 175.
Building on these successes, we have set ourselves ambitious results for the next five years, targeting a detection rate between 43%and60%.
During last year's Budget Vote, emphasis was placed on the need to review the establishment of specialised units with particular emphasis on violence against women and children. Following on from this, extensive work has been done on the feasibility of the re-establishment of the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, units.
FCS structures will be aligned with the cluster policing model to serve the stations. Best practices have also been identified where FCS units and nongovernmental organisations will be able to work together.
Ultimately, we seek to work with other government departments and civil society to create a One-Stop Centre where all services required by victims of FCS-related crimes will be integrated.
A deadline has been set that by 1 June 2010 all vacant funded posts will be filled, and that the FCS units need to be fully operational by 1 April 2011.
We are happy to announce the appointment of Lt Col Bafana Peter Linda to head this unit. As he was based in the United Kingdom, where he acquired extensive expertise in this field, we believe he will be a valuable asset.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M R Mdakane): Hon Minister, try to wrap up.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: In wrapping up, I want to mention that we need to talk about the issue of rural safety, as a priority of government. To that extent, we have shared the rural safety plan with the public, and we need input from that point.
With regard to the issue of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, again, we have extensively shared with the public our plan, which was accepted in Switzerland by all the participating countries in March this year. To that extent, we are ready. Thank you very much.
Mr L S CHIKUNGA
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, hon members of Cabinet, Minister and the Deputy Minister of Police, Members of Parliament, invited guests and comrades, ladies and gentlemen, the fight against crime should be seen as a key stepping stone towards the realisation of the national democratic society; as such crime should be fought with every ounce of brains and soul, but the within the confines and the provisions of the law.
Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to sincerely thank our police officials who are bearing the brunt of the battle against crime in difficult and often dangerous times, yet are blamed for everything. We thank you all very much. [Applause.]
During the festive season and the 2010 Easter weekend, police officers sacrificed their holidays and made available their services to ensure our safety as citizens. What you have said, Minister, is true. The SAPS were visibly patrolling our streets, roads, malls, villages, urban and rural areas. They made us feel safe; and we were safe. It does not mean that there was no crime committed but that more crime that could have been easily committed, was prevented. As South Africans we appreciate your hard work, your sacrifices, and your patriotism.
We dip our banners in remembrance and honour of all police officers who died in the line of duty; we extend our heartfelt and sincere condolences to their immediate families, colleagues and communities.
The members of the SAPS are our first line of protection. They are our shield and, as citizens, we hide behind them, so anyone who kills them leaves all of us exposed to criminals. Anyone who murders our police officers does so in order to remove them so as to get to us. Such criminals must, therefore, be found, arrested, prosecuted and sent to prison.
I am reliably informed that the murderers of three Amersfoort SAPS members who were recently murdered have been arrested; and this is highly appreciated. [Applause.]
Siswati:
Sihlalo, umbutfo wesive i-ANC uyalusekela loluphakelotimali lweLuphiko Lwemisebenti Yemaphoyisa kanye neLuphiko Lwetikhalo lolutimele. Silwesekela ngoba loluphiko lusebentile emanyakeni timali lowedlulile.
English:
On 1 July 2009, in this very House, as we were debating the same Budget Votes, we said our support as ANC was not just a blank cheque but we were going to closely monitor the department's spending and the impact of the budget on service delivery.
At the time of that Budget Debate in 2009, the Department of Police was being administratively led by an acting National Commissioner. Today, we have an appointed National Commissioner, General Bheki Cele, who is hard-working, focused and has produced a clear, strategic plan for the department. The ICD was facing leadership challenges; today we have an appointed executive director who is making a difference in the ICD. The civilian secretariat was not clearly executing its task; today, we have an appointed Civilian Secretariat of Police with a clear strategic plan.
The Head of the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigations, Commissioner Dramat, had only been appointed a month before and to date he is leading a functioning unit which can claim many successful stories.
The department had a SAPS personnel of 183 180; today, they have a staff personnel of 190 283. Then, we were debating a budget of R47,6 billion; today, we are debating a budget of R53,5 billion, which overall is a 3,43% budget increase in real terms. These few examples earn the department and the ICD our support, as the ANC, for their Budget Votes. By the way, the Department of Police for more than five years in succession, have been receiving a clean audit opinion.
We come from a particular era where South African police had been trained in how defend apartheid at all cost. This means that we are correcting systemic errors. In this regard, the role of training of SAPS is fundamental. This calls for an in-depth review of the training curriculum.
We can now evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the post-1994 training curriculum and actually approve it, for instance, a German parliamentary delegation told us on 13 April this year that their police training takes three years. Chairperson I'm not suggesting that ours should also take three years, but I think we need a curriculum that takes into consideration our history as a country, the nature of crime, our social political and economical needs, expectations, legislation, human rights, the Constitution and other issues. The curriculum content will dictate the duration of training. The budget for training in SAPS is high, particularly in comparison with other departments. Its expenditure must be reflected in real improvement in performance and, thus, service delivery.
One other important issue is recruitment. Criminals, particularly organised crime syndicates will always want to infiltrate our SAPS. In this regard, we have to put strict measures in place for the recruitment of police. The selection criteria must make it very difficult, if not impossible, for criminals to join SAPS. If criminals are found within SAPS, they must step down, or be made to step down, and be sent to jail.
Chairperson, one is aware of the vastness and various areas of specialisation in the field of forensic science. Furthermore, one is aware that the on-the-job training approach in forensic science is a common practice throughout the world. But it is also true that other countries, particularly those in the Western world, offer a number of qualifications at their institutions of higher learning. Countries such as Britain, Canada and the USA, all have a variety of qualifications in forensic science technology and, as such, do not suffer from a shortage of forensic scientists.
But until recently, South African universities did not offer courses specific to forensic science. However, the University of the Free State is pioneering a path for graduates with a B Sc in Forensic Genetics, and Unisa has begun to offer a Bachelor of Arts degree of a similar nature but not focused on orthodox scientific forensic qualifications, as is the case at the University of the Free State.
The shortage of forensic scientists in South Africa can be directly linked to the previous and somehow current unavailability of qualifications in this field. It is time for us to engage our institutions of higher learning to begin to offer courses specific to the forensic sciences. One or two universities are simply not enough to address our shortage in this field.
Minister, what we have seen in this year's budget is that the capacitating of detective services will not only rely on our increasing the number of investigators, but will be accompanied by technological advancement. The remarkable budget increase in the Subprogramme: Criminal Record Centre and Forensic Science Laboratory complements the department's objective of enhancing the high-tech approach to investigation.
As the ANC, we are neither pleased nor satisfied with the situation in the Forensic Science Laboratory. Information provided to the portfolio committee on most of the machines or systems used in the Forensic Science Laboratory is just disappointing. It points to poor planning, lack of proper choices and sometimes purchasing just for the sake of it. What it probably says is that we purchase in order to empower the supplier rather than to address our needs.
The Marshall system, Laboratory Information Management System and machines that are kept in boxes for more than three months, which we saw as a portfolio committee, attest to this fact. We were further informed, as the portfolio committee, that four members who resigned from SAPS in 2005, 2007 and 2008, respectively, are either employed or contracted through Sita contracts to provide the support and maintenance of the IT systems and specialised equipment in the Forensic Science Laboratory; and please note that cadre deployment or affirmative action did not feature in this instance.
There is a need for an in-depth audit or even investigation in that unit. Our SAPS Forensic Science Laboratories need a clear skills retention strategy, a skills transfer strategy, exhibit storage and disposal policies, etc. The role of the Forensic Science Laboratories is too crucial in the fight against crime and the integration of the criminal justice system. As the ANC within the portfolio committee, we must closely monitor this area during the 2010-11 financial year.
Let me further congratulate the National Commissioner for intervening in a very abnormal situation that was never spoken about by some of us. How can it be seen to be correct - if it is other people - when the wife is the director, the husband a deputy director who reports to the wife, and the child is a service provider? Yet, if it was somebody else, it would have been branded with all sorts of names such as "nepotism", "corruption", "affirmative action", etc. In this regard, disciplinary measures, if indicated, are most welcome.
The department will be appearing before the portfolio committee to brief it on its capital projects, which include the construction and refurbishment of police stations. For me, nothing makes sense, for now, but we will patiently await the department's presentation to the portfolio committee and then pronounce ourselves on it.
We further take note of the department's medium-term plan to construct and repair or upgrade police stations. For once, we know what to expect during this term. But provinces that were not part of the planning process should be allowed to make their submissions so as to ensure a much further distribution.
The 1992 Ready to Govern document noted that the ANC is committed to the creation of a single police service. The Polokwane Conference reaffirmed this principle of a single police service. Under this principle, we believe that metro police and SAPS will be under the command of the National Police Commissioner in line with the integrated approache to crime-fighting. Steps towards the realisation of this constitutional principle, as announced by the Minister today, are welcomed.
The ANC manifesto commits us to stepping up measures to fight corruption within society, as it is a threat both inside and outside the state. The SAPS Corruption and Fraud Prevention Plan, I understand, was approved. We believe that it has been implemented by national and provincial divisions and all 1 117 police stations in the country; and we will be monitoring that. In this regard, I want to say something about port of entry security and particularly the border post.
In April this year, we visited the Maseru border post. The information there and at other ports of entry is so clear, it comes from many sources and it says some people deserve to go to prison; and they must be sent to prison. We have many excellent police officers, but we have a certain police in Amersfoort who said, "Yizinkunzimalanga". We need SAPS officers who conduct themselves ethically and professionally and definitely not "izinkunzimalanga". Those who cannot behave in an accepted manner to everyone must volunteer to leave the service or be made to step aside.
Managers at all levels must be made to account for their actions or omissions and commissions. People who cannot manage must be put in areas where they will do other work and less management. Resources need to be managed by managers; otherwise our efforts are a waste of time.
In conclusion, after attending the SAPS National Launch of State of Readiness for the 2010 Fifa World Cup and Good Ambassador Campaign on Thursday, 29 April 2010, at Green Point stadium in Cape Town, pride in our country and about our country is a common bond between us all. It is the essence of our new patriotism. Afrika ke nako! Afrika it's your time! South Africa is ready. Come one, come all! I thank you.
MS D KOHLER-BARNARD
MS L S CHIKUNGA
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Chair, I would like to begin this debate by introducing myself to the Minister of Police. I'm doing this because, despite the fact that we've debated on numerous occasions, he seems to have all but forgotten that I am the Shadow Minister of Police OF the Official Opposition - a person who has
a legitimate oversight duty over what he does, and to whom I put questions, which he has to answer.
Unlike the committee's new chairperson, Cindy Chicunga, for whom I have enormous respect, and shall miss when, if the ANC has the perspicacity, she is elevated to the Cabinet, The current Minister simply lacks the necessary work ethic. Our Whippery has now had to resort to writing to the Deputy President to point out that the Minister of Police is one of the worst, if not the worst, offender in the Cabinet in this regard and currently owes me 23 answers.
When I was first transferred to this committee four years ago, one of my more distasteful duties was to inform this country of the fact that the SAPS had squandered R7,7 million on taking 77 individuals to the Caribbean for the Cricket World Cup. The portfolio committee was simply handed the matter to rubber stamp. I wouldn't do it then, and I won't do it now. Parliament is not here to rubber stamp the Minister's excesses, his stays at the luxurious Table Bay Hotel or his extensive stay with unknown persons at the Hilton Hotel in Durban, Kwa-Zulu Natal - a province in which he lives and has his own home.
The Bloemfontein party was another such excess; at a time when the world markets were crashing and thousands of South Africans were losing their jobs. How appropriate was it, do you think, that the Minister should throw a party at their expense?
Indeed, the Minister might well say that he does do his duty and answers Parliamentary questions. Well, I have included four answers in the 23 questions, which can only be described as non-answers.
To give an example, I put a question in relation to the party in Bloemfontein, asking for the total amount budgeted for the party; from whence the funds would come; what the costs were for transport, accommodation, venue, entertainment, food and beverages,
and overtime. The Minister obviously gave this question due consideration, and after extensive consultation replied that the budget for the 2010 National Police Day is covered in the overall budget of the department on a yearly basis.
I tried again, asking further detailed questions: why officers were forced to attend and what disciplinary ramifications there would be for those who failed to attend - it was those and three other questions with several parts to them. The Minister didn't have to work as hard on this reply. His answer was that this is national day, which is observed every year.
The Minister's spokesperson said she would tell us the cost of the event, again during the event and, again after the event. Here we are, still waiting. Well, we've waited long enough. Today seems appropriate and we'll await his response today.
Certainly, I've even yet to find out how much money was squandered plastering the National Police Commissioner's face on thousands upon thousands of bottles of water as though he was some latter-day Michael Jackson.
At last count, on the DA's Wasteful Expenditure Monitor, the Minister and his Deputy had sucked up taxpayer's money on frivolous stays at five-star hotels and on personal "Pimp My Ride" vehicles to the tune of R7,1 million. Then, of course, there's the R130 million private jet!
While the Minister partied, I spent time touring police stations around the country. In Mpumalanga, I visited stations that could have done with some of the tens of millions the Minister has wasted. Indeed, we have about 12 stations that have no running water at all. We know that the national police day party was a logistical nightmare, and we know that the SAPS will never and, should never again ever attempt to join the hospitality industry. It is absolutely clear that the national police day debacle should never to be repeated.
The Minister's spokesperson called this party a "morale booster". Well, it was a morale booster when celebrated annually in each province, at virtually no expense and with our SAPS members a phone-call away from any provincial emergency -or they would be if the phones at our police stations were actually working! A DA survey found that more than a third of the numbers advertised by the SAPS simply don't work.
The sad news is indeed for the thousands of victims of crime who, failing to get through to their local stations, will then dial the 10111 number, only to be placed on hold or hung up on. If they do get through, the police will take, on average, 42 minutes to get to their house, or in the Eastern Cape, six hours.
The SAPS, it is still called that today, isn't it? The SAPS? Between the Minister, his Deputy and his National Police Commissioner, confusion reigns. One of the few answers I did receive to one of my questions said the Department of Police is not changing its name; it retains the name of the "South African Police Service" also referred to as "the force" for operational energy emphasis.
Not one person I consulted had any idea what that bizarre statement meant, except that it seemed you've now backed down on renaming the Service a "force" because it dawned on you that you no longer have a two-thirds majority in this House to change the Constitution.
The DA welcomed the announcement that former senior officers of the SAPS will be allowed to re-enlist, although certainly many have tried and been turned away. We also welcomed the lifting of the rather bizarre moratorium on the taking on of new reservists, although few of the stations seem to be aware of the fact that it's been lifted. It was, nonetheless, an excellent decision and will have significant positive ramifications in terms of upskilling the ranks of the police.
However, the bizarre remilitarisation of the SAPS has been another retrogressive step we could have done without. Indeed, the Minister's own SAPS members of the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, Popcru, has rejected it entirely. Police in KwaZulu-Natal with whom I discussed this two days ago, find the name change absurd, and think that it's harking back to the apartheid era. I saw the Minister on television saying Popcru's concerns have nothing to do with the police. Really, Minister?
Speaking of absurd, it is absurd that we have to wait until September before we read crime statistics, which will by then be 18 months out of date. On the flip side, the Auditor-General's office has agreed, at my request, to audit the statistics at station level in the light of the criminal manipulation of said statistics by crooked station heads.
It's understandable that the ANC wants to keep the country, indeed the world, in the dark in relation to the statistics before the World Cup. But I must appeal personally to the members of our police service here today to do anything and everything to protect our football tourists from harm.
We cannot have these blue-light barbarians stopping a car full of potential German investors and forcing them to erase footage of their cavalcades running civilians offthe road. Did anyone here read the headlines in the German newspapers? Has the Minister totally lost control? [Interjections.]
Mr P CHAUKE: Chairperson, on a point of order: It is really unparliamentary for an hon member to call respected members of our security forces, who are protecting our Ministers and the President, barbarians. It's really out of order! A member cannot call respected members of our security forces barbarians; she cannot do that!
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms Mabuza): Hon member, they are not members of the House, so she can call them whatever she wants. Can you please continue with the debate. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: For a member who is very seldom in this portfolio committee it is rather bizarre that he should stand up at all.
The statistics will be audited by the Auditor-General's office and I think we are going to see quite a difference in the reporting thereof.
I've made this appeal to the SAPS members, right over the heads of the blue-lighters, that any SAPS members who may be in contact with a soccer fan should remember that the eyes of the world will be on us, relentlessly.
The vast majority of our SAPS members are upstanding, honest men and women who one could entrust with one's life. Now is the time to show the world that while there are those amongst you who may be expelled from the SAPS for theft, hijacking, armed robbery and car theft - no, hold on, that was the ANC's candidate in yesterday's by-election in KwaZulu-Natal! - there are those amongst you who will do anything they can to bring the service into disrepute, and the onus is on you to see that they are thrown out of the SAPS and jailed.
The SAPS members must out the criminals within their ranks and, if you have problems doing so because ofvictimisation, come to me like so many ofyour colleagues do and let's see if your bosses try to victimise me! The time has come for the SAPS to take back their good name.
Yes, I know that there were 6 000 complaints against members ofthe SAPS this past year. And, yes, we're watching the squirming ofyour erstwhile boss, Selebi, as he sits in the dock. And I know that the ANC ignored my calls for years to get rid ofthe man. But today there is something I would ask you to ignore. The Ministry has taken a thief-in-the-night-decision to lower the violent crime reduction targets. You SAPS members were so nearly there - fighting to reach those 7% to 10% levels and you had almost succeeded. Were you congratulated for this effort?No, instead the Minister has dropped your targets from just 4% to 7%. This in a country where 50 citizens are murdered and 68 raped every day?
The Ministry imagines that we in this House should agree to pay R57 billion to reduce violent crime by less.
The SAPS men and women were so close, so I challenge you to aim for 8%, reach it and then hit 9% next year. Don't allow this Ministry to patronise you by lowering your goals to make sure you can reach them, while calling you new names in an attempt to boost your egos. We must go upwards and onwards and not regress into the past.
The Hollywood style stunts were amusing for a while, but it's time to do hard yards.This R57 billion budget is not an ANC slush fund for parties, cars, hotels and multimillion rand homes in Pretoria, such as our ever-so-picky National Police Commissioner now enjoys. It is taxpayer's money they give to the government in the hope that it will be spent wisely and for the benefit of all South Africans.
We have 50 people murdered here each day. Show me the benefit in that.
I made the suggestion a year ago that the Minister hire someone who is actually qualified to do the job as our new National Police Commissioner. Instead he chose yet another politician. Well, we see him on television a lot and, of course, he's on this bottle, but let's hope he proves to be as transparent as it is. The jury is still out on that one.
Perhaps the Minister could also answer why it is the SAPS now that treats the ICD with complete contempt?The SAPS used to implement nearly 50% of these recommendations in relation to SAPS members' criminality and now in 90% of the cases, they tell the ICD what's the expression you use, "go hang"? [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms Mabuza): Hon members, your loud noise makes it difficult for me to hear what she's saying. Continue.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Is it that protecting the criminals within the ranks is now more of a priority than cleaning up the SAPS? Why do you say one thing on TV yet another behind the scenes? How is it that there has been a 15% increase in deaths in detention?
When the ICD legislation is finally, finally, ratified, believe me, the Minister will never treat them with contempt again. They are there to keep the SAPS straight, as the Minister will not do it himself and, believe me, there will not be a loophole the size of a flea for any of the Minister's crooked cop members to squirm through.
The Minister failed to protect our borders, as was his mandate. Now the Defence Force has been called back to clean up his mess. I trust the SAPS members at the border posts will be vetted with the Auditor-General's report in mind that corruption at the borders is endemic, and that false papers are produced faster than Wilber Smith books.
The Minister should take time away from the parties, another of which he'll be throwing this evening, I believe, and think a moment of the 2 000 SAPS pensioners still without their pensions for up to three years because of the Minister's staff incompetence. They won't be eating and drinking fine food and wines this evening - but their taxes will be paying for this. Give them their pensions ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms Mabuza): Hon member, I'm sorry but your time has expired.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: It doesn't say so here, ma'am. It doesn't say so on the timer. I can't believe I'm being penalised for interruptions ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms Mabuza): Please take your seat.
MR M E GEORGE
MS D KOHLER-BARNARD
Mr M E GEORGE: You are lucky that I do not have enough time, because I wanted to deal with you. [Interjections.] Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, Ministers and Members of Parliament, Cope welcomes the additional funding of R1,5 billion for the department to achieve an increase in the number of police officers and to improve police station property management.
Some of this money, however, will be used for the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation. Cope still insists that it was a grave error to disband the Directorate of Special Operations. Special crime is far too sophisticated and its resources are too abundant for the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation to deal with.
Crime and corruption are the two biggest threats to our young democracy. While it is encouraging that the government is committing more resources to fighting crime, we have to admit that the levels of crime in our country are still unacceptably high. We have not yet turned the tide. The big question is whether police management will use the increased resources allocated to it effectively. Have the approach and priorities of the police been correctly framed to achieve a marked reduction in crime?
I am pleased that the approach of playing to the gallery has died down. Suren Pillay, writing in the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC Review, Vol 7 No 3 of September 2009, observed that "… fighting fire with fire burns us all". While ordinary citizens seeking a simplistic solution to a complex problem will no doubt cheer the tough Wild West approach to crime that our new National Commissioner brings with him, it is sobering to find out what the shoot-to-kill approach in Rio de Janeiro, for example, achieved. In our country, a few innocent citizens were needlessly killed.
We cannot have a simplistic and symptomatic approach to fighting crime. We need to fight the cause of crime, and this requires the intervention of the whole government, not just the Department of Police.
Wider issues require a wider intervention, on the one hand; on the other hand, the department itself needs to sort out matters of logistics. Why is it that when we visit police stations, there is this continuous outcry from police officials about not having enough vehicles? While provincial management and its national counterpart play Ping-Pong, the police are unable to do their work. The National Commissioner must not shirk his responsibility. The buck stops with him. We need to know how this problem is going to be addressed, because this is a problem we have had for the last 16 years. [Interjections.] That is the problem of vehicles.
Apart from the shortage of vehicles, there is also a lack of other essential facilities at the police stations for capacitating honest policemen and women. An examination of the strategic plan indicates that no consideration was given to this. People are as effective as the tools they have. The same is true of the police. In our view, it is a matter of strategic importance for issues of logistics to be properly addressed, as the chairperson, indeed, also said.
Once again, a dangerous situation is beginning to rear its ugly head, as citizens, having lost confidence in the police, start to take the law into their own hands. It is an indictment on the department for people to trust mob justice to deal with crime. When and wherever this happens, the department should institute an inquiry, to find out why people were resorting to taking matters into their own hands. Who was it that had failed them?
I am fully cognisant of the fact that fighting crime cannot be the responsibility of the police alone. All citizens of this country must assist the police in their fight against crime. The police, however, must demonstrate that they are willing and ready to fight crime with integrity and honesty of purpose. Corruption within the police must be wiped out, as it will otherwise undermine what they are trying to achieve.
In his book, Miami and the Siege of Chicago, Norman Mailer depicts some criminals donning police uniforms to camouflage their crime. We, too, have very many policemen and women who are criminals masquerading as police. Just two days ago, National Commissioner Bheki Cele announced that 10 000 police officers were serving time in prisons around the country. The department must encourage whistle-blowing and proper protection for the whistle-blowers to unmask such people.
I now come to the very important issue of criminal attacks on the police. Last year in August, Sergeant Charles Komba, who had pulled over a taxi in Nyanga and was busy issuing a fine, was shot dead by two men who made off with his service pistol. Last week, three police officers were killed in Mpumalanga, and two days ago, one police officer was killed in Eldorado Park.
We, in Cope, send our sincerest condolences to the bereaved families, and we ask the government to drive this issue to the top of their agenda. This wanton and routine killing of the police is a danger to our democracy, our economy, our security and our stability. We cannot countenance it.
We will judge this Minister and this new National Commissioner-General on their success in ending this danger to the men and women in blue. Cope hopes that this is an undertaking in the performance contract of the Minister – that he will do everything to stop the killing of police.
Removing guns from criminals must become a national priority, driven with intensity. Crime intelligence must play a pivotal role in this regard. Search and seizure operations must be undertaken routinely and relentlessly. Gun safety measures must be enforced. Communities must be encouraged to provide information with total safety.
We also believe that all police officers should be issued with Smart Guns. Technology has been developed that allows software in the Smart Guns to recognise the grip of an authorised user, measuring not only the size, strength and structure of a person's hand, but also the user's reflex – it will be given to you, Mnyamezeli! Thank you. [Time expired.]
MR V B NDLOVU
Mr M E GEORGE
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, the South African police have the great responsibility of ensuring the safety and security of all persons and property within our borders. Their task is often dangerous and, for the most part, thankless. The IFP wishes to say thank you to the South African policewomen and men of our country. Thank you - your work and sacrifice do not go unnoticed. Unfortunately, neither do your shortcomings, and we would like to take this opportunity to highlight those which we feel are most pressing.
Police officers are often placed in harm's way, and have the sanctioned use of lethal force if necessary, to protect either themselves or civilians. This has led to the shoot-to-kill slogan being used by the department and adopted as a somewhat standard practice within the police force. We hope this does not degenerate into a shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later policy, and that all police members are effectively trained and made aware of the situations in which lethal force may or may not be used. This is very necessary in order to protect our most vulnerable from becoming innocent casualties in the event of shoot-outs between the police and criminals.
Discipline, discipline and more discipline must be inculcated within police ranks. South Africa is not a police state in which police officers are above the law. Officers who transgress the law and who abuse their powers must be identified immediately and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. To this end, the ICD must be given the necessary legislative backing to enable them to operate effectively within their assigned mandate. The citizens of the country deserve to feel safe and to be safe, when dealing with a police officer.
The IFP believe that all people are equal, and as such, see no difference in the significance of a farm worker or a farm owner being murdered. Both are horrific acts of violence and both must receive equal attention from the police investigative units. No one life is more important than another.
IsiZulu:
Ukufakwa kwamaphoyisa kwaNongoma kanye nakwezinye izindawo ukuba ahlukumeze abantu ebusuku akwamukelekile neze mhlonishwa. Kungani amaphoyisa afike emzini yabantu ebusuku engaziphethe izincwadi zokuphenya, avuse abantu abahambise nqunu phambi kwemindeni yabo, uma engatholi lutho angaxolisi ngakwenzileyo? Ngabe amaphoyisa asasetshenziswa yini ngokwezombusazwe mhlonishwa na? Kwenziwa yini lokho kwenzeke kuthina 'bantu abampisholo na?
English:
Another issue we want to raise is that of the relationship between the department and the stakeholders' union. The animosity between the two must be mediated upon so that the police force can always function at an optimal level in the execution of their mandate – no harassment, please.
Besides ill-discipline, the police force cannot function correctly if it is not properly equipped. Some police officers do not have bullet-proof vests, yet they are expected to place themselves in harm's way. Police crime-scene investigators have outdated or damaged equipment, or no equipment at all, with which to assist them in their forensic investigations. Some police stations have no operational patrol vehicles.
Why is it that some police stations are favoured above others and seem to receive greater logistical support than others? All police stations should be equal in terms of logistical support, which should be based upon demographics. The IFP tasks the Minister to address this aspect with his portfolio committee as a matter of urgency.
Why is it that a certain charge office is being moved out of the crime-infested area here in Woodstock, hon Minister? Moves such as this do not inspire public confidence in the police service. Why is it that two suspected murderers are released from a charge office in Pretoria because they were not formally charged? Are our policewomen and -men being properly trained? Who is at fault when situations like this occur?
We are looking forward to a safe, secure and incident-free World Cup. Our police force say that they are ready for the World Cup, and the IFP says it is ready to support them in their efforts. Make our country proud, make our country safe, and make the World Cup safe. I thank you.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Applause.]
MS A VAN WYK
MR V B NDHLOVU
Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon chairperson of the committee and members of the House, before I start my speech, I think there are a few things that have been said that need some correction. First of all, the hon Kohler-Barnard expressed herself wrongly. She wanted to say she is a shadow of a Minister and not she is the shadow Minister, but we understand that part of them. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
In terms of the questions outstanding, this Minister in fact, receives more questions than any Minister in Cabinet. He has exactly four questions outstanding and those were submitted last week. I suggest that the DA should get their administration up to scratch and their act together.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon member, is that a point of order?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Yes, please.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): May you please take your seat, Ms Van Wyk. What is the point of order?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: The numbers were confirmed this morning by the administration right through the ranks. I am sorry, but stand by what I said.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon member that is a point of debate. Continue hon Van Wyk.
Ms A VAN WYK: The fact that this hon shadow of a Minister indicates that she finds it bizarre that the Minister has stopped the process of the reservists shows how little she understands about the problem that was experienced at that point in time in terms of the reservists.
Regarding the blue-light barbarians, on the 29 April 2010, with the launch of the Soccer World Cup, the Premier of this province, who banned blue lights, was taken to the stadium with these blue lights barbarians. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): What is the point of order, hon member?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I don't believe the protection services kidnapped any students or beat anyone up.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Take your seat. Continue, hon Van Wyk.
Ms A VAN WYK: I've got the hon member's last year's speech here today. And you know what, it sounds exactly the same. The only difference is that last year she used statistics whereas this year she used the national police day. But the rest is the same. Moan, groan, no solutions! [Applause.]
This I'm saying also for the purpose of the media because we don't want wrong reporting. Tonight's dinner, hon member, is a low-key dinner, sponsored by Vodacom and not the taxpayers' money. Check your facts! I've wasted enough of my time on that, can I say following ...
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon Van Wyk, take a seat. What's the point of order hon member?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, this hon member is misleading the entire House. I at no stage said that money from SAPS is spent on this. I said that people ...
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon member, that's not a point of order! May you please take your seat.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, could you ask her to withdraw this allegation? She must withdraw. It's untrue.
(Afrikaans):
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, 'n punt van orde.
(English):
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon, Groenewald, is that a point of order?
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to know whether it's Parliamentary to allow women to fight like this in Parliament.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Continue hon Van Wyk.
Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, may I say, a shadow Minister behaves like Mr Ndlovu. Over the last 15 years the face of the SAPS has changed significantly. The ANC has transformed the SAPS from an apartheid force that was characterised by enforcing an unjust, unequal, inhumane political system to a service that now works together with the communities it serves to protect our country and her people. We now have a service that fights crime and its dire consequences in the protection of our democracy.
Over the past 15 years - Mr George was part of that - the ANC government has demonstrated its commitment against the fight against crime by an ever-increasing budget aimed at strengthening and modernising this service. Nowhere is it better demonstrated than in the increase of the number of members in the SAPS.
But the fight is not over yet, and cannot be won by numbers alone. It requires the team working as one, focused and capably led by its political organisational leadership. As the ANC has stated in its election manifesto, it requires the commitment of the community in rooting out, within the confines of the law, those criminal elements that live amongst them.
Fighting crime is not an event, it is a process. And in the evaluation of the process we need to identify where our weaknesses are and how we improve those areas in order to intervene in the process more effectively and efficiently.
The criminal act is also not an event, but a process. What we need to do is to enable the SAPS to disrupt that process at every level of execution. From this stage of planning, through proper crime intelligence, visible and proactive policing informed by crime intelligence should be able to prevent certain crimes from happening. Once a crime has been committed, we need the ability and capacity to detect and gather enough evidence so as to apprehend the perpetrators and bring them before the courts for successful conviction.
I'm dealing with two programmes, namely, detective services and crime intelligences services. The detective services receives R9 billion of the R53 billion of the overall budget. That represents 17% of the budget. Detective services in this financial year received the biggest increase.
The role of the detective in the process of crime fighting is not a glamorous, one-hour quick result, as depicted in numerous detective programmes on television. Their work is painstaking and laborious. It requires a certain kind of person, a person who is a critical thinker; she or he must be able to use logic and reason to solve a problem.
A detective needs to be able to analyse and evaluate the information that they gather in order to identify a clue. A detective requires social skills and must have good comprehension and writing skills as well as oral capabilities. A detective uses brain rather than brawn to solve cases. It is thus clear that specific skills need to be present in order for a person to be an effective detective. I raise this point because as much as we must ensure that we are recruiting the right kind of person that we want as a police officer, we need to beware of what type of individual will make a good detective.
According to information that was presented to the committee, which the Minister has alluded to already, 1 904 individuals were appointed as detectives since April 2009 until the end of January 2010. That represents an 8,9% increase and brings the total number of detectives for the same period to 23 221.
Minister, a question however needs to be asked whether this is enough and what the ideal figure should in fact be. We would request the Minister that proper research in this regard be conducted and that we arrive at a figure that can effectively serve the need and then work actively towards achieving that. This study must take in consideration the time that detectives spend in court, on the witness stand or ensuring that witnesses are present at court proceedings.
The training of detectives deserves attention. During our oversight visits we have come across numerous stations where many of the detectives have not undergone detective training. While we accept that everybody cannot be at the same level of training, we need to treat training as a valuable resource that must be managed properly.
Proper career planning and audits of the training that individual detectives received should ensure the elimination of unnecessary repetition of training, but also that we build on prior skills obtained. We also need to determine whether we are training enough detectives as specialised investigators. I believe that proper scientific study determining our ideal detective strength will indicate to us what the ratio for specialised detectives should be.
We have found that at national level people put in place the necessary resources and instructions, but at station level the situation is something completely different. We must remember that the public's perception of crime is determined by its own and personal experience at a station level. During a presentation to Parliament it was said that an average detective carries between 80 and 100 dockets. With the additional appointments it is estimated that the figure should go down to 50 per investigator.
However, practically, at the stations we find a different picture. Here one would often find that in one station one detective will be carrying 150 to 200 dockets while another at the same station will be busy with 30 to 40 dockets.
This indicates a lack of proper management by the detective branch commander at that specific station.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I'm concerned; we've been timing very carefully the length of speeches. People on this side of the House have been stopped. The nine minutes are over.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): Hon member, that's not a point of order!
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: What is it then?
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Mabuza): That's not a point of order! Continue hon Van Wyk.
Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, Chairperson. We need to take from our best examples - and we have them - and use them as a basis to roll out our best practises to all our detective branches.
During our unannounced visit to Cape Town Central Police Station, we found that the station commander has daily morning parades with his detectives. During these parades, they report what progress they are making on cases and the contact that the investigating officer has had with the complainants in order to keep them informed on the status of the case; and they discuss and find solutions for those challenges that they might have experienced.
At these parades, Crime Intelligence is also present and shares with the detectives trends and specific threats they have picked up, and they look at possible commonalities between crimes. Moreover, the station commander then does spot checks on some of these dockets in terms of quality and execution. He would actually phone complainants and confirm that the investigating officer has, in fact, been in touch with them. This is the kind of involved management that we need to see at all our stations. Thank you.
MR P J GROENEWALD
MS A VAN WYK
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, hon Minister, on a more seriousnote, if you don't want to listen to the opposition, I want to urge you to listen to what your own member, the chair of the portfolio committee, has said. I can agree with 90% of what she said. I am sure that if you implement and look very favourably at the issues she has raised, you will have a better SAPS. At least, listen to her.
Minister, there are some realities in South Africa. One of those realities is that since 1994, more than 328 000 people in South Africa have been murdered. That is the population of a town the size of Potchefstroom, the area where I live. Since 1994, we have wiped out a town of more than 328 000 people! In the last seven years, more than 5,56 million people in South Africa were victims of violent crime. That is the reality.
Almost 800 000 women have been raped in South Africa since 1994. There is a woman raped every 10 minutes in South Africa. When we finish this debate, almost 14 women would have been raped in South Africa.
Minister, the police have a constitutional obligation to protect the people of South Africa. In this regard, the FF Plus will make a submission that we establish a fund for victims of violent crime. I think that is the least that we can do for those victims of violent crime.
They have high expenses if, for instance, they were robbed or whatever the case may be, as far as violent crimes are concerned. We hope that the Minister and the ANC government will support us in calling for such a fund.
Afrikaans:
Ek wil ook praat oor plaasmoorde. Ek weet die agb Minister sê dat ons nie plaasmoorde moet verpolitiseer nie. Ek stem saam met die agb Minister. Ons moet nie plaasmoorde verpolitiseer nie.
Minister, u kan nie ontken dat 'n politieke motief wel 'n rol speel by plaasmoorde nie. Hoe is dit moontlik dat daar 'n plaasmoord kan plaasvind, mense wreed vermoor word, maar niks word gesteel of vermis nie? Dit is nie gewone kriminaliteit nie.
Ek wil dit hier op rekord plaas dat die FF Plus ernstig bekommerd is oor die feit dat ons 'n situasie het soos in Limpopo, waar daar nou selfs groepe van 10 tot 16 misdadigers, plaasaanvalle pleeg. Dit is ook nie gewone misdaad nie. Dit wek kommer as mense in groepe plaasaanvalle begin pleeg.
Minister, die FV Plus sal binnekort vir u bewyse bring dat daar wel politieke motiewe is by plaasmoorde.
English:
Ms L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, on a point of order: Can I intervene? There is no interpretation. We cannot follow the debate. [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Nee, ek gaan nie Engels praat nie. Ek sal Engels praat wanneer ek Engels wil praat.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Ek het nie gesê u moet aangaan nie. Hou net 'n bietjie aan totdat hulle die probleem opgelos het.
English:
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, I will be speaking in seven languages When it is my turn and I will really appreciate it if they can deal with the problem and ensure that the interpretation is fully in place.
Ms L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, I want to propose a five minute break while the technical people attend to the problem.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): The House is adjourned for five minutes while they are attending to the problem.
The TEMPORARY HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): The problem has now been solved. There is a request that the earpiece is kept not too close to the mike because it causes an unpleasant noise in your ear.
Afrikaans:
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Ek het eintlik gepraat oor die plaasmoorde en ek het vir die agb Minister gesê dat ek saamstem dat ons nie plaasmoorde moet verpolitiseer nie. Ons kan egter ook nie ontken dat daar wel 'n politieke motief is vir plaasmoorde nie. Ek sal binnekort vir die Minister die bewyse bring.
English:
I will prove to you that politics is, in some cases, a motive.
Afrikaans:
Ons sal dit binnekort beskikbaar stel.
Ek wil kom by die ander aspek wat gaan oor vuurwapens. Die agb Minister het 'n onderneming gegee en gesê dat daar in die amnestie periode ook geleentheid sal wees vir vuurwapeneienaars om te herregistreer. Dit het nie gebeur nie. Die situasie van misdaad in Suid-Afrika vereis dat wetsgehoorsame burgers hulself moet kan bewapen.
Ek kan vir u baie gevalle noem waar burgers slagoffers van moord sou wees, as hulle nie hul vuurwapens by hulle gehad het nie. Mense skaf vuurwapens aan om hulself te verdedig. Ek het die agb Minister gevra hoeveel misdade gepleeg is met wettige vuurwapens en hoeveel misdadigers wettige vuurwapens gebruik het. Minister, u amptelike antwoord was dat u nie vir my kon sê wat die syfer is nie.
As ons nie weet wat die syfer is nie, moet ons nie stellings maak dat die wetsgehoorsame burgers met vuurwapens, die oorsaak is nie.
Laastens wil ek vir u sê dat die polisie vertroue by die publiek moet inboesem. Dit is op rekord … [Tyd is verstreke.]
Mr R B BHOOLA
Mr P J GROENEWALD
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, firstly I would like to congratulate the
hon Minister for his implacable leadership and his directive in fighting and delivering a peaceful and crime-free South Africa. Secondly, I would like to compliment General Bheki Cele for his hands-on approach.
We must also award true accolades to the security establishment, especially SAPS, for the international co-ordination and the state of preparedness for the mega-event, the 2010 Fifa World Cup.
There is one thing that is absolutely certain and it is that we will have a trouble-free 2010 Fifa World Cup. Show me a country where there is no crime.
The MF strongly believes that it is the responsibility of every individual who breathes South African air and who lives on South African soil, to intensify the fight to deliver a crime-free South Africa, irrespective of our race, colour and political affiliation.
Despite the numerous challenges, we must honour our policemen and policewomen who very diligently and under extremely difficult circumstance, perform their duties. They even go to the extent of laying down their lives in the course of executing their duties to protect South Africans.
However, I want to make an appeal to the hon Minister that great care should be taken in the selection of new recruits. There must be a distinction between a person who just wants the job for a salary and the other person who has the aptitude and wants to be a career policeman or -women.
I further want to know how it is that the first and second police commissioners of colour of Gauteng came from Chatsworth, yet outstanding policemen and -women cannot rise to great heights in KwaZulu-Natal. You don't take a ruler and measure affirmative action. It is high time that we move away from race and other negative factors.
We need a special force within the Hawks to deal with lifestyle and unaccounted-for enrichment. We must ensure that corruption in the public and private sector reaches a zero-tolerance level.
On the whole, the MF supports the Minister's budget and without a shadow of doubt we are very positive about the manner in which the hon Minister handles his affairs. [Applause.]
Undoubtedly, praise must be awarded to General Bheki Cele. He has been an outstanding MEC and the manner in which he handles his affairs is commendable. [Applause.]
The time is right. It is now or never. Let us all commit ourselves and march forward with courage, conviction and determination. Let us never stop until each and every one of us holds up to our responsibility as public representatives to deliver South Africa to be a peaceful and crime-free country. Thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr R B BHOOLA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, Minister of Police Comrade Nathi Mthethwa, National Commissioner of Police, General Bheki Cele, hon Members of Parliament, distinguished guests, comrades and compatriots, on an occasion like this it is always important to acknowledge the important role that is played in the advancement of safety and security of our country, by our dedicated and supported human resources in blue.
The past year has been one of warning shots and, as President Jacob Zuma stated, we are about action more than anything else. The time to hug, kiss and massage crime has lapsed; a new calibre of police officer has arrived.
Minister and hon members, allow me to rewind to the crisis and low morale we experienced in our country in the year 2006, where every corner of our society was about crime reaching an unacceptable level. Criminals roamed our streets freely, without any fear of arrest. The nature of crime at the time was lethally dangerous and aggravated. That necessitated a call by members of the society which requested the military to intervene. We refused because we believe in the utilisation of the police in the fight against crime.
When we started, we vocally said: "Washa Tsotsi, criminals must burn". And, indeed, we are still there. We said we will ensure that all the legislative loopholes are addressed. We also said we will strengthen and sharpen all the instruments that will help us to rid ourselves of this traitor amongst our midst.
We did say that the ICD should bite; the secretariat should assume shape; the Criminal Procedure Act should be attended to; and a single police force under one command centre should be ushered in - something which Minister Mthethwa has highlighted in his speech.
The SAPS currently consumes 190 000 police personnel in the fight against crime. This places us as one of the leading labour-consuming departments. The kind of policeman and -woman we had needed some serious attention to ensure that they were equal to the task. We needed personnel with integrity – a police officer who'll deliver us from these misbehaving amoebae going by the name of "tsotsis".
From the 2006 crime backdrop, we furiously invaded the criminal space with the ferocity of a cornered bull and the agility of a cat. In doing so, we were mindful of the existing laws governing our country that needed our careful consideration in executing our task.
South Africa currently has fared well in terms of crime. This is showcased by the successful operations, especially during the peak of last year's festive season. It should be noted that fighting crime is a commitment and dedication of all of us. Crime is not the friend of a man or a woman, but an enemy of life and success. It is, therefore, our dedication to reduce the cancer that has taken over our malls, streets and homes, and ensure that it is fought jointly by all of us.
This is the reason why the police, under the administration and leadership of President Jacob Zuma, introduced, for the first time, partnership as a stand-alone, special programme. In this regard, the partnership will involve all the various stakeholders under one roof to design ways and means to reduce crime and its manifestations at local level. This is a structured and co-ordinated way under the auspices of the Community Safety Forums, CSFs.
The CSFs bring together various government departments, NGOs, community-based organisations, business, youth, women, religious interfaith groups, etc. So far we have had successful engagements with various stakeholders to ensure that we are all showing our faces and standing up to be counted in the fight against crime in this country.
Former President Nelson Mandela, on the occasion of his inauguration, said and I quote:
A person who does what any other person does is an ordinary person. A person who does what no other person can do is an exception. But a person who has done what no other person has ever done is an institution, a national asset, a hero. This is a person of whom, when he or she dies, we will be able to say: Here lies a man or a woman who has played his or her role in the society.
This quote is befitting of today because we want national heroes and heroines. We want national assets and institutions in our country in the fight against crime. We need a cadre in the fight against crime. We said, and we are still saying, to all members of society: Stand up and be counted in the fight against crime.
Sector policing is still the basis of our policy. As already alluded to, a national sector policing instruction and a revised implementation framework has been developed to fine tune our sector policing approach. This will also ensure that, through our sector policing approach, we are able to unleash that well-deserved, much awaited, and fatal blow to crime in our society.
By November 2009, and in line with the revised implementation framework, sector policing had been implemented in all 169 high-contact crime stations. By the end of June 2010, sector policing would have been implemented in all police stations identified as provincial priority stations. Ladies and gentlemen, we are proud to say that together we really can do more in the fight against crime.
Vital tools that support the implementation of crime prevention strategies include sector policing, reservists and community mobilisation. These tools assist in the monitoring and assessment of the police officers. We are in the process to also assist with the issue of redefining and remodelling the role of Community Policing Forums so that they will be more than tea ladies and "stuur-boys" at the police stations. A process for redefining their nature and character is in place, as per pronouncements made last year during the reservists' summit.
During this reservists' summit, a national task team was established to consider employment-related matters and facilitate the recruitment of qualifying reservists as permanent employees of the SAPS. We will not apply a pass-one, pass-all policy with regard to reservists. Each one of them will be considered according to his or her own status.
Recruitment drives were implemented in all nine provinces and a total of 2 733 reservists were recruited as SAPS members. Five hundred and thirty-two were recruited as Public Service Act members.
The engagement with the youth as the major generation that is under the spotlight, especially with regard to wrong-doing and choices of role models in our society, is going to be one of the major highlights of the year. Working with the National Youth Development Agency and other relevant stakeholders, we will be able to win over the fight to release our youth from getting motivated by opulence that cannot be accounted for.
Through pen and paper, we will have an engagement with media, sports, music, and business organisations to ensure our young minds are part and parcel of the solution for the future betterment of South Africa.
As it has been stated, credit should be given where credit is due, and I am humbled to stand here today and congratulate the efforts employed during the 2009 festive season launch of "Operation Duty Calls". The police embarked on various visible policing operations countrywide, interacting with communities, businesses and various organised structures, with the objective of intensifying our struggle against crime.
When we started with our crime-combating strategies, our message to the gun-toting, merciless criminals was clear: "You owned our streets, now let's help you to be rehabilitated or face the wrath of the law". That meant going to jail. The resounding success of the operations brought us positive feedback from business and communities.
Setswana:
Re ipela ka digatlhamelamasisi tsa rona.
English:
Our tactical response teams are existing in cluster police stations as well as at the international airports. Currently, there are 711 members trained and deployed in various clusters and airports. They have shown clear visibility in high-crime spots too, especially at shopping malls where these criminals have been mercilessly opening fire on innocent people causing loss of life, and so on. Firearms and their availability have been the bane of life of innocent South Africans as there are firearms in the wrong hands.
IsiXhosa:
Amasi abekw' elangeni!
English:
The jig is up! This necessitated our urgent attention, informed by the fact that 70% of aggravated robberies are committed with firearms. Firearms have become the weapons of choice. We then adopted a comprehensive strategy to address the circulation and easy availability of firearms and ammunition. This is also thanks to the support Parliament gave to police by last year by declaring a firearms amnesty period, through the constitutional powers vested in and accorded to the Minister of Police, from 11 January 2010 to 11 April 2010.
South Africa has a significant pool of illegal firearms in circulation, which contributes to the high rate of serious and violent crime. The sources of these illegal firearms range from firearms stolen from members of the public to firearms illegally smuggled into the country across our borders.
A lot was achieved during this process. Members of the community voluntarily surrendered their licensed firearms for destruction through the process prescribed in the firearms control regulations. Assistance was also provided by allowing those who missed the cut-off date for renewing their licenses for their weapons in terms of the Firearms Control Act. For those who still have illegal firearms, the time is over.
Afrikaans:
Die poppe gaan dans!
English:
We are encouraged and happy that 46 262 weapons were received at our police stations as a result of the amnesty period [Applause.] Twelve thousand one hundred and seventy-nine of these were illegal and 27 119 were legal firearms voluntarily surrendered. During this period again, 6 964 were confiscated by the police. It should also be noted that the society we live in raised negative sentiments about this amnesty process, with others encouraging people not to heed the call. But we are happy South Africans are responsible and cannot be dragged back by those with evil intentions.
In order to achieve our goals for the transformation of the police service, especially focusing on leadership, gender parity, representativeness and personnel, the existing affirmative action programmes will be continued. We are closing all the gaps and loopholes in this programme. What we are clearly saying is that, when necessary and when the need arises, additional programmes will be instituted.
A thorough and intensive effort will also take centre stage in promoting gender equity within the department, thus developing and appointing deserving women in decision-making positions. People with disabilities will not be left behind as the required 2% target achievement will be enhanced.
The leadership of police has identified command and control as one of the major problems experienced in the management of the personnel, especially at police station level. Through this finding, an essential training tool kit for commanders at station level is needed; not only to provide them with operational and tactical skills relevant to their jobs, but also to upskill them for their daily operations. The department will be creating various pools of skilled staff who will in future be competent station commanders.
Through police-community partnerships, and an increase in media and public confidence in the police, the fight against crime will be enhanced. In relation to contact crimes, serious crimes and organised syndicates, the success which will be achieved through arrests, seizures and convictions lies in the communications of SAPS. Furthermore, an opportunity for communication exists through the marketing of the SAPS capacity building programmes. We will arrest more criminals through enhanced communication.
In conclusion, allow me to make a special mention and send my gratitude to the women in SAPS Air Wing and peacekeeping missions. These are women who have shown that they are as strong and able as their male counterparts. Gone are those days when we used to place women on the other side, for example, in the client service centres. We also would like to congratulate all those recipients of SAPS Service Awards from various provinces. We are proud of you and, as former President Mandela said, we believe that you are national assets, the heroes and heroines of the nation. You are the institution which the SAPS, South Africa and South Africans need. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms M A MOLEBATSI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, members of the department, all our visitors, hon colleagues, let me address myself to hon Groenewald even though he is not in the House.
Afrikaans:
Wanneer hy van plaasmoorde praat, hoop ek hy praat nie net van plaaseienaars nie, maar ook van plaaswerkers, want moord is moord.
English:
The ICD draws its mandate from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996. The ICD is now in its 13th year of existence. Since its establishment in April 1997, it has performed an enormously challenging task of ensuring proper police conduct, using limited resources.
The ICD is the smallest department within the Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster. For 2010-11, it received an increased allocation of R129 million.
As an independent oversight body, the ICD plays an important role of keeping the police in check. The police are the face of the government and they are given enormous power, which can be easily abused. Such abuse of power can be detrimental to the country's democracy hence we have an institution such as the ICD that is responsible for the checks and balances to ensure that democracy is sustained.
The role of the ICD has become even more important as government has expressed its intention to confront and deal decisively with the issue of crime, which has brought about certain developments for crime combating, including the strengthening of the police. These developments in the field of policing require a fortified civilian oversight structure in order to prevent the abuse of power by the police.
The ICD also ensures that the police are accountable to the public. The fight against corruption is one of Government's priorities for 2010-11, as was stated by the President in his state of the nation address. Clearly, the importance of the role of the ICD as watchdog over the police cannot be overemphasised.
The challenge that is often pointed out is the disproportionate growth in strength between the SAPS and the ICD. Currently the SAPS has about 185 000 members and plans to increase its strength to 192 240 by the end of March, on the one hand. On the other hand, the ICD has a total of 271 employees.
For many years the ICD has been referred to as a toothless watchdog because of the limited powers given to it by legislation. In terms of the current legislation, the SAPS are under no obligation to implement any of the ICD recommendations. This situation is about to change, as the proposed ICD legislation is, among other things, aimed at addressing such challenges.
The new ICD legislation is expected to be tabled before Parliament during the course of the current financial year. The envisaged legislative changes will include extending the mandate of the ICD to focus on more serious and priority crimes; improve the management structures of the directorate; improve reporting and accountability practices in the directorate; establish a formal liaison capacity between the ICD and the Secretariat of Police and lastly, to enforce compliance by SAPS with recommendations made in respect of SAPS members.
Plans to strengthen the ICD are in place and their implementation began in 2009 with the appointment of the executive director as the head of the ICD. Further activities aimed at strengthening this institution will be rolled out during the course of the current financial year.
These will include the reorganisation of the ICD by tailoring its mandate to focus mainly on the most serious matters of police transgressions, such as death in police custody or as a result of police action or torture.
The President of the Republic of South Africa declared 2010 the year of action. Currently the ICD has six satellite offices countrywide and it plans to establish three more in 2010-11.
The aim is to establish a total of 22 satellite offices in the medium-term. The establishment of satellite offices will be accompanied by a vigorous communication strategy that capitalises on awareness campaigns to alert people, particularly those who are in rural areas.
Crimes against women and children and inequalities exist in all communities to varying degrees. In this regard, the ANC 52nd
Conference Resolutions reaffirm its stand against all forms of crime against women and children.
Afrikaans:
Dit is op grond hiervan dat die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat se begroting verwelkom moet word. Die begroting moet verseker dat groter onafhanklikheid verkry word om korrupsie te beveg en misdaad teen vroue en kinders bewerkstellig word, in lyn met hul mandaat.
Setswana:
Mokgatlho wa ANC o re rotloetsa go dira mmogo go tokafatsa matshelo a batho ba rona.
Afrikaans:
Die ANC ondersteun hierdie Begroting. Ek dank U.
REV K R J MESHOE
Ms M A MOLEBATSI
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the fact that about 70% of the department's total budget allocation goes to salaries, raises a fair expectation that the better paid and increased police members should bring about value for money. This should result in a drop in serious crime levels, which we believe are desperate.
What I fail to understand is why the police have set for themselves a low target of 4% to 7%, to reduce all serious crime categories.
The ACDP believes that the target of 4% to 7% for reducing all serious crime categories is too low, and should be reviewed and increased to a more acceptable percentage.
During the committee's meeting with the German MPs last month, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the police in that country receive three years of comprehensive training before they can hit the road, while our police are given a mere six months of training.
This insufficient training has resulted in the failure of many constables at police stations taking improper statements from complainants and witnesses. This has also led to many cases being thrown out of court because of shoddy work by the police.
Even though the ACDP will support this Budget Vote, we are not convinced that the R1,3 billion allocated for training is sufficient to capacitate the police to deal effectively with crime syndicates operating in our country. More intensive training is needed for our police, we believe.
Listed among the department's priorities for 2010-11, is the elimination of corruption. We in the ACDP would have preferred that elimination of corruption in the police should have been particularly highlighted. If corruption in the police is not eliminated, then it will be difficult to eliminate it in business and in the Public Service.
Earlier this week, it was reported that a suspected international drug kingpin was allegedly linked to a group of six Bloemfontein police officers who were reportedly transporting drugs between provinces in state vehicles while on duty.
These allegation are very serious and a great embarrassment. How can members of the public be assured that the police vans they always see speeding on national roads are not transporting drugs, particularly when the amount of drugs and their users in townships and amongst children are increasing?
The ACDP believes that the investigation of these allegations should be given priority as we do not want to see further transportation and misuse of state vehicles transporting illegal drugs. Corruption must be rooted out at all costs in the police.
Having said that, I also want to salute the two exemplary police officers from Port Elizabeth, who refused a bribe of R1 million each. [Applause.] We need many more police officers like them. And to the Hawks, we note your successes and thank you for shutting down the drug laboratories and arresting 28 of the 50 most wanted criminals. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
budget vote."
Mr H P CHAUKE
REV K R J MESHOE
Xitsonga:
Mr H P CHAUKE: Ndza nkhesa swinene Mutshamaxitulu loko ndzi nyikiwile nkarhi lowu leswaku na mina ndzi kota ku lahlela marito mambirhi manharhu.
English:
First of all, I just want to bring this point to this House today. I don't know why the hon member Kohler-Barnard is so angry. I have never come across such an angry member for the past 16 year that I sat in this Parliament.
However, I think there are reasons why hon member Kohler-Barnard is so angry. You see, early last year, I raised the issue of the IT problems in the police with the currently suspended commissioner responsible for IT.
To my surprise, within an hour the hon Kohler-Barnard was next to me, saying how good and wonderful this commissioner is, and that we must give her support, and so on. Now the question that comes to mind is how much do you know about the corruption at that level. How much do you know, hon Kohler-Barnard? The issue is that it is only because it is a white person - the wife, the father, the daughter. Therefore, it is not an issue, it is not reported anywhere, and will not be reported anywhere ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Hon Chauke, there is a point of order, take a seat please. What is the point of order, hon member?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, on a point of order, the hon Chauke has just in a roundabout way referred to me as a racist and I would like him to withdraw that please; it's totally unparliamentary.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): We shall investigate that, hon member.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, the issue that I am raising is that the problems of corruption in the police service are there. The Minister, the Deputy Minister and all of us from the ANC side are fighting that scourge of corruption everyday. The DA does not see the progress that we are making, especially on this one.
The question I ask myself is: Why is this thing not reported? Why is the media carrying other issues, like the issue of Julius Malema. It is a serious issue when a person has squandered over R300 million in the police services and it is not being addressed. So I am saying that we have to look at these things very seriously.
The issue of the blue lights is a DA campaign, again, because those who are asking for a way to pass through because they are rushing to their offices are black, in the Western Cape! [Interjections.] Don't say "rubbish" when I am speaking!
Now, the problem is that the DA is driving this campaign and it is nothing other than the politics of the DA. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Ok, there is a point of order, take a seat please.
Mr M A MOLEBATSI: Chairperson, on a point of order, is it parliamentary for the hon Kohler-Barnard to say "rubbish" to comrade Chauke? [Laughter.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Hon members, we shall investigate that and come back to the House. [Laughter.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, clearly, we would not falter. [Laughter.] We will not fail to fight corruption in and outside the police services. [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Hon Chauke, take a seat please. I have investigated as I promised: It is unparliamentary to use that kind of word. Therefore the member will have to answer to that.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: All right. I withdraw, thank you.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Do you withdraw your words, hon member? Please withdraw your word, "rubbish."
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: We apologise; we were just overwhelmed. I do withdraw. I stand up again; I still withdraw, as does my colleague.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Farisani): Thank you for withdrawing so many times.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, I really think this is uncalled for. It happened in the House not long ago, when the Deputy Minister was seen to be supporting barbaric action and that point of order was made in the House and the member from Cope withdrew it. But it is very clear, Chairperson, that there is an intention to undermine the wonderful work that this police Minister and the Deputy are doing together with the general. I think we will have to defend that cause in the ANC. In fact, we will never allow this thing to happen.
Let me come back to the hon Mluleki George - just in passing, hon George. You see, when you were Deputy Minister of Defence, you and Mr Terror Lekota decided to withdraw the defence force from the border line. You and Terror Lekota decided to withdraw. You see, when you finished doing that you then formed your own party, talking about defending the Constitution. [Laughter.]
We know very well that the responsibility of the defence force derives its mandate from the Constitution, which they flouted. Therefore it is a huge challenge that I will deal with when I tackle the issues in my speech as we move forward.
IsiZulu:
Mhlonishwa Ndlovu, le yaseMgungundlovu yona KwaNongoma yinto okumele yenzeke, ayenzeki kwaNongoma kuphela, yenzeka kulo lonke izwe. Ukuze sikwazi ukufumana lezi zibhamu esizifunayo ezifihlwe yilezi zigebengu ezindlini. Mina nje sebengingenele kodwa bayazi ukuthi kumele baxolise uma sebeqede ukusesha bangathola lutho, kodwa-ke umsebenzi wamaphoyisa lowo. Futhi amaphoyisa ngeke ayofuna i-warrant of arrest noma i-warrant of search ...
English:
... if they were to search a village or a township; therefore I think that is the way in which we have to support them.
IsiZulu:
Ngakho-ke yindlela okumele sibaseke ngayo. Futhi ngiyajabula ngoba namhlanje lokhu kubonisile ukuthi uyayiqonda indlela amaphoyisa okufanele asebenze ngayo.
English:
Chairperson, let me just go back to what it is that we are transforming. Let us go back before 1994. Let us pause a while and look at where we come from. We come from a system where there was a super SAPS; a SAPS that controlled Pretoria and we had all these other small Bantustan police, your paramilitaries. In Bophuthatswana you had the Bophuthatswana police service, and in the Eastern Cape, etc.
The work of the ANC has been to integrate and transform this force, and that work is what we are discussing here today – all that has been said is a process in which we are dealing with issues of transformation. We need to pause and see how far we have travelled. How far have we travelled in the issues of transformation?
You know, before 1994, Mr George, if you were staying in Soweto, police would come and knock on your door at 3 o'clock in the morning and say:
IsiZulu:
... sifuna incwadi yemvume [permit].
English:
If you had a visitor you had to take that visitor to go and report to the municipal office before the visitor could come into your house. And that happened to your uncle or your grandmother who could be coming from somewhere in the so-called Bantustans and you would have to do that.
The same applied in Bophuthatswana, the police were trained to kill and to suppress the democratic forces – you know it very well hon George because you were leading the struggle during those days. Therefore, where we are today will be measured by the successes that we gain every day.
So, the issues of transformation becomes very clear, and the ANC has already made a call that we want one single police service in South Africa. It is a process and it is not going to happen overnight.
Therefore I want to give support to this programme that the Minister and the Deputy Minister have announced. I want to give support to General Cele. You may call him a politician deployed there, but I am telling you he is one person who has made so much difference. He is one person who has lifted the morale of the police on the ground, and we need to applaud him. [Applause.]
The point that I want to bring home is that at the national command centre we want the generals to emulate that energy – those who are up there. It is a positive energy that is bringing change to our country.
At the provincial level, sometimes you find yourself having to introduce a provincial commissioner to a community or police station because some of the provincial commissioners do not go to those police stations and don't meet with communities.
Therefore we want to use this debate to make a call to the provincial commissioners to be responsible so that whatever we have given you now – you said you want to be called generals, commanders and all of that - must be emulated in your work on the ground. A level of discipline is expected. We expect to see a particular level of discipline – a discipline that there is respect at the police station.
You don't have to go to a police station and when you arrive at seven o'clock in the morning, you find no work done. In one of the police stations that I visited, I found that they were selling "vetkoek", so all the police officers in the morning are busy buying "vetkoek" and drinking tea and services have stopped.
Now, the ranks that we have given you go together with the responsibility and discipline. We want to see that level of discipline. We want to see you being exemplary and follow in the footsteps of General Cele. So, those are some of the issues that I think we need to seriously support.
Chairperson, one of the areas that we will have to deal with, which the ANC has been advocating for some ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
MS D A SCHÄFER
MR H P CHAUKE
Ms D A SCHÄFER: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and portfolio committee chairperson, the last year has been extremely busy for the Portfolio Committee on Police and a lot of credit can and must go to our chairperson, Sindi Chikunga, who has taken her responsibility seriously and genuinely which is not seen by the DA in the vast majority of the portfolio committees.
Some progress has been made over the last year and some credit must also go to the Minister. In my speech last year I expounded on the total inefficiency of the Police Secretariat, which was wasting huge amounts of money on large numbers of staff who were doing very little.
The Minister's wise appointment of Ms Jennifer Irish-Qhobosheane as the secretary of police has resulted in the complete turnaround of the Police Secretariat. Her efficiency and accessibility has been noticed and appreciated by all of us. Unfortunately that is all the praise I am going to give the Ministry and the Department this year.
Minister, there is another dysfunctional department in the SAPS that needs your urgent attention, namely, the National Inspectorate. You need to find another Jenni, and quickly. According to a draft national instruction issued in 2004, the National Inspectorate is supposed to conduct inspections and evaluations at police stations across the country, to ensure that they are doing what they are supposed to do. We all know that there are many stations that are not doing what they are supposed to do.
After a closer look at the inspectorate, we can see why they are allowed to get away with it. The Institute for Security Studies has conducted research into the inspectorate. As has become customary in SAPS, there are limited statistics available. Nevertheless, according to the statistics that could be found, the National Inspectorate in the early, to mid 2000's conducted approximately 280 inspections and evaluations per year. By the mid-to-late 2009, only one had been done for the entire year!
According to the Policy Advisory Council's report for 2007-08, sufficient appropriate capacity to manage and do inspections properly does not seem to exist at any level. This is hardly surprising when one looks at the Head of the department, Mr Rasegatla, who was appointed, or perhaps more correctly, redeployed, to head the inspectorate in 2005.
This is the same person who headed the police secretariat and in that capacity was the subject of a 2003 Public Service Commission Report, which recommended that he should be removed from his post for gross incompetence and failure to perform his duties.
Later in 2005, the then chairperson of the portfolio committee, hon Maggie Sotyu, had to interrupt his presentation because his reports were confusing and incoherent. She then confirmed that she had discussed the matter with Minister Nqakula and he agreed that an intervention was necessary. Minister, no evidence of any intervention can be found. Mr Rasegatla is still there, drawing the salary of a Divisional Commissioner and quite literally falling asleep at our strategic planning meetings in Pretoria in January. Minister, this man needs to be removed from this post too, and boarded if he has an illness - or otherwise just be fired, plain and simple.
Another issue I raised last year was the Minister's promise to reintroduce the FCS units. A year later the FCS units are still nothing but a promise. The Minister has now said that they will be reconstituted by June 2010 and fully resourced by March 2011, which we most certainly welcome. However, what was disbanded in a matter of days has taken over a year and a half between being considered and becoming fully functional.
In that period of 21 months, 304 800 children will have been raped and 1 905 murdered. Does this show a genuine commitment to the fight against crime, women and children? I have said it before, and I will say it again until something is done about it, or until the DA takes over the national government and sorts it out.
The SAPS is not serious about the fight against crimes against women and children. I suppose one can hardly blame them when their top leadership shows such disregard for it. The National Commissioner has still not complied with the legislative obligation to table reports to Parliament on the SAPS' compliance with the Domestic Violence Act. Despite writing to the Minister about it late last year, I am still awaiting a response.
The victim empowerment programme was launched 12 years ago, yet there are still a third of all police stations in the country that do not have victim support rooms. This is a travesty of justice and I have already written to the Public Protector asking for an investigation into why the SAPS are taking so long to comply with its obligations, which is to protect victims of crime.
Now we are told it will take another five years to implement fully. This is unacceptable. Why is the budget not providing for the speedy implementation of this programme?
The SAPS' response to human trafficking has been equally abysmal. It is quite clear that they have not been proactive despite reports of trafficking for many years, and that the only small steps that have been taken are as a result of pressure surrounding the World Cup. When a Minister answers a Parliamentary question - one of the few questions he answered - by saying that the Hawks are dealing with it, and there is not even a contact telephone number for the Hawks on the website, that shows a clear lack of concern about the issue. It is impossible to find out who in the Hawks are dealing with it. By phoning any of the numbers we have been given, we have tried. We have to read in a private advertisement in a newspaper that there is, in fact, a telephone number one can phone to report human trafficking.
The Minister has not once referred to this in any replies to questions on the subject. One has to assume that he is not aware of it - a further indication that he is not taking this issue seriously.
It is an indictment on the police in this country when journalists have to expose how easy it is to bribe a police officer at the Lebombo border. Minister, have you followed up on that? Thank goodness for the private organisations that are taking these on, but the fact is, this is a crime we are dealing with and the police should be leading the fight.
Another area of crime that has been sorely neglected by SAPS is that of cybercrime. Every day criminals are proactively devising new schemes to rid us of our hard-earned cash and commit various other crimes using modern technology. I have never in my life won so many lotteries as I have in the past few months! If I were to believe theses emails, I would never have to work again.
According to a report presented on cyber security at Cote D' Ivoire in 2008, cyber crime in Africa is growing faster than on any other continent. This year, probably in the light of the increased focus on South Africa because of the World Cup, it has increased even more. Where are the police to be found in all of this? Well, we aren't really sure given that the Minister's reply to my question about the location of cybercrime units was:
Due to the covert nature of the bulk of the responsibilities conducted by this section, the SAPS is not in a position to disclose further details with regard to the locality or personal details of these members.
Minister, with all due respect, all crime operations are covert. This is like telling me you cannot give me the location of my local police station. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that there is really no cybercrime unit in the SAPS to speak of, and that if it were not for the of banks and other private business being proactive, this country would be in an even worse situation than we are at present.
I have referred two phishing emails to the Bellville commercial crime unit about 3 months ago. I haven't even received any response at all, or even an acknowledgement. The SAPS needs to wake up and move into the 21st century; the criminals have done so long ago.
Finally, Mr Mthethwa is quite correct that any move towards a single police service will be a protected process. We are very aware that the DA's success in Cape Town with the Metro police is embarrassing to the ANC. We will not stand by and watch you while you destroy it. Thank you. [Applause.]
G G SCHNEEMANN
MS D A SCHAFER
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, comrades and hon members, the ANC is committed to intensifying the fight against crime and working together with all communities in our country to rid South Africa of the criminals.
One act of crime is one too many, one murder is one too many. The ANC's 2009 election manifesto stated, and I quote:
Fighting the causes of crime will be a priority of the ANC government in the next five years. There is a need to overhaul the criminal justice system to ensure that the levels of crime are drastically reduced.
In its 08 January this year the ANC said, and I quote:
The ANC is firmly committed to fight crime and corruption. There is an urgent need to overhaul the criminal justice system to ensure that the levels of crime are drastically reduced.
The President said in his state of the nation address, and I quote:
We are working hard to ensure that everyone in South Africa feels safe and is safe.
This provides clear indications that our government, the ANC-led government, is committed to defeating the scourge of crime in our country. The budget of R52,5 billion for 2010-11 translates these commitments into action.
Programme 1 in the police budget deals with administration which includes areas such as information technology, capital works, property management, training of personnel and vehicle fleets. The secretariat also falls within this programme.
The use of information technology is becoming increasingly important in the fight against crime. It is not simple printers, printer cartridges, or laptops, it is more about how we can use IT to ensure that the SAPS becomes more efficient and effective in its efforts and fight against crime.
I understand that the SAPS has a number of service level agreements that they have entered into. From what I understand, this runs into considerable sums of money which are paid on a monthly basis. If this is correct we need to ask the SAPS to look to see whether we are getting value for money from these service fees which we are paying.
One of the areas in which technology is not helping the SAPS to be efficient and effective, is that of telephones. Often we hear of police stations where telephone lines are not working. In my own constituency I have two police stations which regularly do not have phones that are working.
We were also advised that the phone bills of SAPS run into tens of millions of rands per month. The question we need to ask is: Are we using the best technology available? We also need to ask the SAPS to come to the committee and tell us what they can do to solve this. It is very frustrating for people when they try and phone the police and they simple cannot get through because the phones are not working.
We also need to find out what can be done to bring down the cost that we are spending on telephone calls. One does not say the calls are not necessary, but we need to see how to bring the costs down. At the same time, we must acknowledge that significant progress has been made in the implementation of the use of information technology.
An example of this is the e-docket scanning system which is used to electronically scan dockets and all related documentation. This plays an important part because it ensures that dockets can't get lost. It ensures that dockets can get tracked right through from start to end. This is an important issue. The Minister raised it in his speech today on what progress has been made. We look forward to continued progress in the roll-out of this area.
One of the issues that is of concern is that I have been hearing, more recently, that there are some personnel in the SAPS who try and bypass this system. They only capture and scan the docket after the case has been completed. This is unacceptable.
It is important that when we introduce new technology that all personnel at police station level are informed of and trained on the benefits and the need to use such technology. Part of the training of recruits, when they go to training colleges, should include not just computer literacy but also how to use the various IT systems which the SAPS uses. Perhaps when performance appraisals are done, something which should be included in the appraisals should be whether the police officer is using the IT system which he or she should use.
Recently we had the opportunity of visiting the provincial operation centre in the war room in the Western Cape. These facilities were put in place two years ago under direction of the ANC-led government. We need to understand that. Whilst we were there we were able to watch the movement of police vehicles on the screen using the vehicle tracking system.
Those vehicles were transporting some of our colleagues. The system had to tell us where the vehicle was and indicated the speed at which the vehicle was travelling. One of the vehicles was speeding; it was travelling in excess of the speed limit.
We are concerned. This Automatic Vehicle Location, AVL, tracking system has been rolled out across the country with the speed that it should have. We need to ask that there is urgency placed on this and let's get it rolled out. It is important that we are able to control and monitor our fleets. We need to know where our fleets are. It will help our 1011 call centres become far more efficient and effective. They will be able to identify where our vehicles are and where they can be deployed to.
Of concern is that we do hear that there are some SAPS members who try to disconnect the system in their vehicles. They do this so that they cannot be tracked and nobody knows where they are. This kind of behaviour is unacceptable and we need to condemn it in the strongest terms possible. If police officials are caught doing this we want to ask and request that strong disciplinary action be taken against them.
We found the war room to be extremely impressive. I was delighted to read in the strategic plan for 2010 t0 2014, that it actually states that there is an urgent need for these war rooms to be rolled out. Well, we are now asking that we be told and given a plan of how this is going to be rolled out and when we can expect these war rooms to head the various provinces.
The strategic plan also gives us a clear plan of the number of police stations that will be built or upgraded. In this coming financial year 42 police stations will be built or renovated. In the following years, however, which is a point of concern, this number reduces to 29, 18, slightly up to 31 and down to 24.
Given the number of police stations that we have and the large number which are in need of repair, we have to ask whether this infrastructure plan is sufficient. Whilst we welcome the information which we have been given - the names of the police stations is helpful to us - we do need to ask whether this is sufficient and whether we couldn't do more to speed up the renovation of police stations and the building of new police stations.
We are going to receive a briefing shortly and hopefully we will get clarity on some of these matters. Still on this point, perhaps what we should be considering is a uniform standard for our police stations as we either build new or renovate existing police stations. When I talk about a uniform standard, I am talking about appearance, structure, decor and the services which need to form a basic police station. I really think it is time that we have this: a standard design so that we know exactly what a police station should look at.
We must acknowledge that we have inherited an infrastructure - hon Groenewald, whether you like it or not - that was built pre-1994, and many of those building are not appropriate for police stations. There was no uniformity in whatsoever. We don't expect things overnight, but we do say that as we build new ones, as we renovate our buildings, let us come up with a uniform standard. [Interjections.] It took you 300 years!
Moving on, I just want to say that personnel are the most important asset of the SAPS. These men and women protect us and they bring to book the many perpetrators who seek to undermine our democracy. We, therefore, have to ensure that we look after them - and to hon Kohler-Barnard - that we respect them.
We also need to ensure that they are properly trained for the work that they need to do. We have to ask whether the current training needs meet the requirements of producing well-trained policemen and -women. Is the curriculum currently used up to date? When last was the curriculum reviewed? These are answers that we need.
We come across instances where newly-trained personnel are deployed to police stations, but there are no training officers on site. This is another area which needs to be tightened up. We need to ensure compliance with this.
The question that we do have to ask is whether the correct people are being placed in the correct positions. If a person is trained as a police officer it does not necessarily mean that he will be a good detective. We need to ensure that personnel are correctly deployed in positions in which they will be most effective.
The recent launch of the Government Employees Medical Scheme, Gems, to assist in improving fitness level of personnel, is welcomed. We hope that this initiative will be utilised by all personnel across all ranks, from the top to the bottom and from the bottom to the top.
I would like to congratulate at this stage the 126 sportsmen and -women from the SAPS who participated in the recent Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation Games, which was held in Malawi in December. They brought back 60 gold, seven silver and six bronze medals. We need to congratulate them on this.
Far too often we hear of police members who take the lives of their loved ones before taking their own lives. I raised this point last year. Many of our police members are faced with having to deal with violent crime scenes and many other incidents which affect them. In such instances trauma counselling should be obligatory before they are allowed to go back on patrol.
More emphasis needs to be placed on the effectiveness and resourcing of the employee health and wellness component.
The vehicle fleet of the SAPS is a vital component of the resources which the police need to be able to operate efficiently and effectively. Currently a formula is used where one vehicle is allocated to 4,5 personnel. We have been assured that this is not a one size fits all approach. We are generally told that there are sufficient vehicles, but when you go down to police station level you find a different story.
Whilst we acknowledge that there has been progress in the provision of vehicles, we think that there needs to be better management of the fleet, overall. Those at head office level who are responsible for deploying and allocating vehicles need to have a far better understanding of the requirements at the station level.
According to the Financial Mail of 19 March this year, 8 000 firearms are unaccounted for in the SAPS and over 100 retired officers had yet to return their SAPS pistols. This asks us whether there is proper control of the assets; whether we actually know where our assets are. The same applies to bulletproof vests. We are told that recruits, when they have finished training, are issued with bulletproof vests, but often nobody wears them. Here we would like to point out and make our request that members of the SAPS need to wear their bulletproof vests. If they don't have one, they should not go out on patrol. Too often we hear of members of the SAPS who have been killed because they haven't been wearing their bulletproof vests.
I would also like to say that we are extremely happy with the functioning of the secretariat and the progress ... [Time expired.]
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
MR G G SCHNEEMANN
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Sihlalo, ngiyezwa...
English:
... former Deputy Minister of Defence in the Republic of South Africa. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, I think that we had a fruitful discussion and that members were very constructive. We will even take some of the criticisms which were raised. We'll take some of the criticisms. We would just want to underline one point and make it very clear. The point is that those who say it cannot be done must not obstruct those who are doing it.
IsiZulu:
...siyenza manje...
English:
So, we take our cue from that. Most of the confusion which was here was clarified and I am happy.
The issue which I think I need to raise with hon Groenewald is the issue of the arms. I think, hon Groenewald, that we should not romanticise violence. If you talk of farm murders and confine that to farmers when there is a whole host of complex situations in that area which involves people who stay there, workers, and so on, I think it is a bit irresponsible of us to always emphasise that.
I will tell you what the problem is: The problem is not the amnesty we have declared, because, first and foremost, that amnesty was made for law-abiding citizens – those people who missed the earlier deadlines. So there is no way that government wanted to disarm law-abiding citizens. We must get our facts straight on that issue.
The second area which I really wish you would speak about one day is these men and women in blue. See, they are hard at work. You know, in recent weeks they have arrested a lot of people and seized a number of arms caches.
Some of these people arrested advocate a neo-Nazi ideology. Some of them have been commandos or members of the commandos. So, if we are not seen to be saying something about such people who have evil intentions in the country, whatever we say will always be taken with a pinch of salt. So I think that we would have to bear that in mind and be able to balance some of the things because they would help.
As much as I need to underscore the point and thank the communities for their participation, I must say wherever we go people are happy with the work of the police. They will criticise, yes, but they are saying that they can see what is happening.
isiZulu:
Gatsheni, nakwaNongoma siyababala, yebo bajabulile kakhulu. [Uhleko.]
English:
So, as I say, the issues have been raised here, but there are things I really don't have to stoop to answering. I really don't think I should be expected to answer some things, and I would never, ever answer them.
But, the issue about the war room concept which has been raised is a very fundamental point. It is the hon member, comrade Greg here, who has raised this point. It is a fundamental point in the fight against crime, particularly when we combine fighting crime toughly with fighting it smartly. That's where the war-room concept comes from. I hope that what has been shared here is finally shared by all members.
IsiZulu:
Tshangezi, uyibonile i-war room?
English:
So, there is a roll-out to other provinces. It is something that has always been here in the Western Cape, particularly under the leadership of Lieutenant General Petros, and now under the leadership of the Hawks' Lieutenant General Dramat.
So, all the provinces and all the provincial commissioners have been coming here to the Western Cape to share ideas. It is true that we will be able to succeed through a combination of effort. As we said, together we will fight the frontiers of evil and win the battle against crime.
Those who say it cannot be done should not obstruct those who are doing it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 16:43.
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents