Public Service & Administration Committee reports: adoption

Public Service and Administration

11 February 2009
Chairperson: Ms M Matsomela (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Committee adopted its Annual Report for January-November 2008.

Members debated the best way to present financial figures in paragraph 9, under the heading “Budget of the Committee” on page 12 of the Annual Report. Members agreed that, firstly, a narrative statement should be included, and, secondly, that the Committee had not been able to do all that it had planned on account of a shortage of funds.

 

Meeting report

Consideration and adoption of the Annual Report, January-November 2008
In a page by page discussion on the Committee's Annual Report, the Chairperson elucidated certain details.

The Chairperson mentioned that the minutes mentioned on page 5 of the Annual Report, of meetings held on 06, 12 and 13 November 2008 by the sub committee to select the Public Service Commissioners, did not necessarily have to be adopted by the Portfolio Committee, but they were included for reference.

The Chairperson said, with reference to the recommendation of the previous chairperson of the Committee, Mr M Baloyi (ANC), now the Minister of Public Service and Administration, that important recommendations contained in certain reports referred to the Committee, and mentioned in the Annual Report on page 11, on which reports the Committee had not had time to complete its deliberations, should be considered seriously in the next Parliament. 

The Chairperson, with reference to page 12 of the Annual Report, explained the presentation of the Committee's budget. An amount of R500 000 had been allocated. The amount that had been transferred to the Committee was R300 000. The Committee spent only R55 556. The Chairperson had been informed that the balance of R144 444 did not necessarily indicate money that was actually available for the Committee to spend. A decision had been taken by Chairpersons in their meeting that all committees' funds would be consolidated, because there were some committees that had to deal with legislation and thus needed more funds than other committees needed. For this reason, every time a committee needed funds, it was necessary to apply to the Chair of Chairs, who would assess priorities. For example, the Committee's application for funds to hold a workshop on processing of annual reports and strategic plans of departments and entities was rejected. This had important future implications for how a committee chairperson motivated a request for funding.

Ms P Tshwete (ANC) asked if was not futile to specify the balance of R144 444 if in reality the Committee did not have that sum of money to spend. It would better to ascertain how much the Committee really had at its disposal; if the amount was zero, then it would be sensible to write ‘zero’.

The Chairperson suggested that the Committee reflect in its financial statement only the sum of money that it had used. However, it was also important to reflect what had been allocated, and let that show what the Committee had spent. It might be better to leave out the balance, because it might create a wrong impression to somebody else who did not have the explanation just provided.

Ms M Tlake (ANC) said, however, that she thought it was too wide a parameter. She said that the chairpersons, who were doing the consolidating, should give each committee chairperson a framework and guidelines on how to motivate requests. She believed that the actual balance should be specified, even though the Committee knew that it did not necessarily reflect the funds actually at the disposal of the Committee, but rather funds that were held in a consolidated account.

Ms Tshwete said that she did not want to create confusion by saying that she did not want to reflect the actual balance. She really meant to say that it was important to reflect what the Committee actually had at its disposal. The sum of R144 444 would give to observers the impression that the Committee had not used the funds that it had been allocated.  

Mr K K Khumalo (ANC) said that, on the presentation of information on the Committee's budget, one wanted, on the one hand, to satisfy the needs of the bookkeeper, and, on the other hand, to present a perhaps more meaningful, narrative budget statement, on the lines suggested by Ms Tshwete. The figures were correct in themselves and correctly expressed, and satisfied the accounting formula. However, the need remained for a narrative statement.

A Member expressed his agreement with Mr Khumalo. He suggested that perhaps the Committee should include a note in its financial statement that the sum in question represented money transferred back to the consolidated account. This would serve to explain that the sum in question was not ‘in the coffers of the Portfolio Committee’.

Mr C Morkel (ANC) said that, besides the sum in question, there was a general issue of budget planning in the new Parliament, about which the Committee might wish to leave a caveat for the new Parliament to consider. There seemed to be about R500 000 allocated to each portfolio committee at the outset. Thereafter adjustments were made according to a particular set of criteria. One of the criteria would be the amount of legislative work that the committee concerned was expected to undertake. That would be motivated by a department wishing to introduce legislation. One of the issues that also had to be considered was that committees in the new parliament might wish to initiate their own legislation. This was not necessarily budgeted for in such a financial statement. He did not know whether accommodation was made for adjustments of that nature, where a committee might wish to initiate its own legislation, for example, if this Portfolio Committee wished to conduct a public hearing on a particular issue that could lead to legislative amendment or recommendations to change regulations by the executive authority. In such cases, the committee concerned should have the opportunity to make recommendations to the Chair of Chairs, where, Mr Morkel assumed, this budget would be adjusted within the consolidated budget.

The Chairperson said her understanding of the matter was the same as Mr Morkel’s.

Mr N Gowabaza (ANC) said that the Committee should raise its concern that it had been unable to perform its work of oversight to the extent that some of the oversight work that was done in 2005 had never been followed up. The next formation of the Committee should be informed of this.

Ms Tshwete asked how they took money from committees even before the end of the term. She concurred with Mr Gowabaza in his concern that oversight work had not been done in the current year. There was some tendency in Parliament to favour some other committees.

The Chairperson observed that the Committee appeared to be in agreement ‘on those two notes’: firstly to include a narrative explaining that the sum in question was not necessarily available to the Committee; and secondly that the Committee had not been able to carry out all its work because it had been informed that there was a shortage of funds.

Ms Tlake reiterated the importance of a framework and guidelines on how to motivate committee budget requests. 

The Committee adopted its Annual Report with the above amendments.

Consideration and adoption of the Minutes for meetings held on 19 November 2008, 27 November 2008, 27 January 2009, and 28 January 2009
Ms Tshwete, without saying that the Minutes should not be adopted, said that a sentence to the effect that the Committee deliberated on the presentation was insufficient. It was important to reflect what Members had actually said.

The Chairperson said that the main objective of the minutes was to capture what the Committee had expressed.

Mr Morkel referred to the Parliamentary Monitoring Group's (PMG) paraphrased records of the Committee's proceedings, but, noted that these were not official minutes. Sometimes the PMG’s reflections were accurate, sometimes not. However, the Committee did not have any control over PMG’s processes, for that was PMG’s own domain. On many occasions the PMG’s record of the Committee’s proceedings had been correct. They should be given credit for that. Members of the public read PMG’s reports in the absence of any official record of the proceedings. He proposed that Hansard extend its role to record portfolio committee meetings, and put sound recordings thereof on a website together with text.

The Chairperson concurred with Mr Morkel, and asked the opinion of Ms Razia January, the Committee Secretary.

Ms January said that would take up the matter with the Committee Section management.

Notwithstanding the above, the Committee adopted the Minutes for its meetings held on 19 November 2008, 27 November 2008, 27 January 2009, and 28 January 2009, with minor corrections. 

Consideration and adoption of the Report on Budget Vote 8 for 2009/10
Mr K Minnie (DA) observed that budget debates would take place only in the new Parliament. He said that to adopt the Report on the Budget Vote would be difficult for him, as an opposition Member, at the present time.

The Chairperson confirmed that they would be debated by the next Parliament. However, the Committee should adopt the minute about the discussion of the Budget. It was not adopting the Budget as such.

The Chairperson received a question from the Committee Secretary, and sought Members’ advice on whether ‘these reports should be ATC’d’ or adopted for the Committee’s own purpose alone. The Chairperson did not think that the latter would be strategic, but she sought Members’ guidance.  

Mr Morkel said that the reports should be adopted for the Committee’s own purposes.

Other Members concurred.

The Committee adopted the Report on Budget Vote 8 for 2009/10.

Matters arising from the Minutes
The Chairperson reminded Members of the serious concern about the Public Service Commission’s budget, which was not enough. This shortfall, if continued, would adversely affect the quality of the Commission’s work. The Chairperson had been informed that the Committee did have the right to motivate on behalf of its entities. However, it would first be necessary to call the Commission to present a business plan to the Committee.

The Committee agreed.

The Chairperson reminded Members about serious concern about the State Information Technology Agency (SITA). The Committee had identified the lengthy data collection period, which made it difficult for the Agency to maintain its cash flow. Secondly, there was a problem whereby government departments did not pay SITA on time, or did not use the facilities of SITA. Some departments insisted on using outside organisations. The Minister had informed the Chairperson that the problems presented by SITA to the Committee were just the tip of an iceberg, to the extent that he had found himself obliged to constitute a committee of investigation. Within the past ten years, SITA had had a turnover of 13 chief executive officers. The Chairperson thought it unwise for the Committee to intervene until it received a report from the investigating committee.

Mr Minnie said that the Committee should seriously try to help SITA, by having the debt collection issue tabled to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. He was confident that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts could assist.

Ms Tshwete commended the Chairperson for being proactive. She agreed with Mr Minnie’s idea, but said that the matter should be taken up by the Chairperson and the Minister first, before referral to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. There was, moreover, no time remaining for the Committee to call SITA to give a presentation.

The Chairperson considered that she was mandated to represent the Committee in asking the Standing Committee on Public Accounts how it could assist.

The Chairperson noted Mr Khumalo’s comment that the Committee should await the report of the investigating committee established by the Minster.

The Chairperson agreed on the need to pursue the matter in conjunction with the Minister.

The Committee agreed to the above.

Conclusion
In this the last meeting of the Committee in the present Parliament, the Chairperson cordially thanked Members for their participation and support.

The meeting was adjourned.

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