National Film and Video Foundation & Iziko Museums of Cape Town Annual Reports 2006/7: briefings

Meeting report

ARTS AND CULTURE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
21 November 2007
NATIONAL FILM AND VIDEO FOUNDATION & IZIKO MUSEUMS OF CAPE TOWN ANNUAL REPORTS 2006/7: BRIEFINGS

Chairperson: Ms J Tshivhase (ANC)

Documents handed out:
National Film and Video Foundation Annual Report 2006/2007
National Film and Video Foundation Presentation
Iziko Museums of Cape Town Annual Report 2006/2007
Iziko Museums of Cape Town Presentation
Ziko Museums of Cape Town Briefing on Annual Report 2006/2007

Audio recording of meeting

SUMMARY
The Committee received delegations from the National Film and Video Foundation and from the Iziko Museums of Cape Town and heard presentations, focusing, at the Chairperson’s request, on financial aspects of these entities’ annual reports for 2006/2007.

The National Film and Video Foundation briefed the Committee on its Annual Report 2006/07. For the sixth consecutive year, it had received an unqualified Auditor-General’s report, with no matters of emphasis. Two items were raised under other matters. The Foundation noted that the delay in appointing a new Council had created uncertainty regarding governance, and requested the Committee’s support in expediting the appointment of the Council in future. Concerns were expressed about the constraints imposed by the small staff complement, the fact that only two South African feature films had been produced in the last year, particularly when compared to the output of India. The Foundation described its initiatives to foster local filmmakers.

Members asked for further clarification on matters mentioned by the Auditor-General, questioned the gender profile of the Council, expressed concerns about the domination of television by imported culture, and

Iziko Museums of Cape Town reported good progress towards its six strategic goals, which were outlined. It had entered successfully partnership projects, including a memorandum of understanding with the Freedom Park Trust, had improved the representivity of staff, were pleased by the high productivity of staff, and the progress of the new building. It was undertaking access for people with disabilities in numerous historical buildings, demonstrated the success of the public programmes. The audit report was unqualified for the fourth consecutive year.

Members discussed the choice of name, the description of the staff composition, provision for persons with disabilities, the future function of the buildings

MINUTES
National Film and Video Foundation (the Foundation) Annual Report briefing 2006/07
Mr K Eddie Mbalo, Chief Executive Officer, National Film and Video Foundation, introduced Ms Charlotte Mampane, the Chairperson of the Foundation’s Council, who was appointed in July 2007. She had previously served a two year term as a member of the Council, and was also Acting Chief Operating Officer of the South African Broadcasting Corporation.

Ms Mampane expressed her deepest appreciation of the work of the previous Chairperson of the Council, Mr Mfundi Vundla, a visionary who had striven hard for the development of the film industry, and the proper funding of the Foundation. She paid tribute to a gifted and astute Chief Financial Officer.

Ms Mampane recognised the importance of promoting the film industry throughout South Africa. The Foundation’s Council had developed a strategy for South Africa’s film industry, also recognising the importance of developing local content, the infrastructure of the film industry, the skills of filmmakers and others in the industry, and of contributing to the overall economic development of South Africa and job creation. The Foundation had a “moral imperative” to create facilities for South Africans.

Mr Mbalo noted that, for the sixth consecutive year, the Auditor-General had awarded an unqualified audit report, reflecting the good work by the Foundation’s Council and management.

Ms Karen Son, Chief Financial Officer, NFV Foundation, explained that the Auditor General had raised two items under “other matters”. One related to supply of goods. She explained that due to the specialised nature of the Foundation’s business, most of its supplies were unique and had to be sourced from specific service providers. This made it impracticable always to invite competitive bids .The particular instance referred to by the Auditor General related to hiring of famous and unique artists, for whom competitive bidding was obviously impossible. The second comment related to the delay in appointing a new Council; in the thirteen month period in which no Council existed, a matter outside the control of the Foundation, certain approvals could not be obtained by the audit committee.

This delay in the appointment of a Council tended to create uncertainties on issues related to governance, for instance, the appointment of the audit committee, which was reported to have met only twice in the 2006/2007 financial year. Therefore the audit committee was unable to perform certain functions as required by Treasury regulation 27.1.8. He pleaded that, in future, the appointment of the Council should be expedited.

Mr Mbalo said that the South African film industry was exerting efforts to strengthen relationships with its partners in Africa. South Africa was asked to supply artists or service events, and its presence at international platforms involved not only sale of films, but a broader marketing of South African art and talent.

He highlighted the Foundation’s Sediba Skills development initiative, a successful programme specifically focused around script development and a script editors’ training programme, which emphasised the creative team while acknowledging the writers’ position. The aim was to support, nurture and develop South African writing talent to fill these much needed gaps.

The programmes broadcast on South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) television had improved greatly over the past year, as a result of the Foundation’s co-operation with the Corporation on Sediba. About 100 people had been trained, including script editors and commissioning editors. This co-operation was enhanced by the Chairperson of Council also holding office as Acting Chief Operations Officer of SABC. The programme Spark had been introduced for first-time writers, during which 14 writers were trained by newly trained script editors themselves acting as trainers.

The Foundation, in co-operation with the UK Film Council, launched the 25 words or less pitch contest. Four winners were enrolled in intensive training and development workshops conducted by the UK Film Council, whose team of script editors spent a week with script editors in South Africa.

The Foundation had observed fewer women applicants for funding and fewer projects proposed in indigenous African languages. Therefore the Foundation introduced a contest for Black writers and directors to submit projects that would be produced in indigenous languages. Women of all races were invited to submit proposals for short films. R300 000 was allocated for each project. It was hoped that eight of the 14 projects would go forward into production. The Foundation had awarded 50 bursaries for full-time study and had sent five students to participate at the ‘Imagine’ training programme in Burkina Faso.

The Foundation and SABC had established the South African Film and Television Awards (SAFTAs) to recognise, reward and popularise local film and television content and talent. The event was broadcast live on SABC2 to 12 million viewers.

The Foundation had supported national film festivals that had a number of benefits, and had been working closely with the Department of Arts and Culture to develop the North West Film Festival at Mafikeng, and other smaller festivals.

The National Lottery owed the Sithengi festival R1.9 million, and the Foundation had done everything possible to recover the money. Now it had no option but to sue and seek a summary judgement. The National Lottery had decided to defend the action and had furnished an affidavit. The Foundation now questioned the value of pursuing the action, at a possible cost of R2 million in legal fees, to reclaim a sum of R1.9 million. The National Lottery was not interested in reaching an out-of-court settlement. The Foundation accepted that for the next two years it would not be possible to run Sithengi, and it sought the Committee’s assistance in presenting a case jointly to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry.

Since 2001 the Foundation had been working on a concerted programme to position the South African industry in the global arena, and had hosted national pavilions at various festivals.

On the instructions of the Minister of Arts and Culture the Foundation had begun a study to develop a national and training strategy for the South African film industry and the feasibility of the establishment of a national film school. Treaties for co-productions were being negotiated, and eight projects were certified under current treaties.

Mr Mbalo noted that Hon Member H P Maluleka (ANC) had, on the occasion of the Minister of Arts and Culture’s budget speech, highlighted some of the issues that the Foundation wanted Parliament to address. Mr Maluleka had said that unless South Africa produced 15 to 20 films each year, it could not seriously claim to have a sustainable film industry. In the past year, only two feature films had been produced in South Africa. The rand value attributed to production had declined. Compared with India’s output of more than 1 000 indigenous language films, excluding ‘Bollywood’ films, South Africa’s production was minimal. If South Africa did not make films, all the money that it invested in audience development went to waste.

The Foundation needed the Department of Arts and Culture’s long term vision and commitment for it to plan accordingly. In addition it must increase its capacity. The staff, a highly committed group of people, was hugely overburdened. The Foundation was vulnerable to poaching of staff, of whom about six had been lost to other organisations in the past year, but the Foundation recognised the value of putting the experience gained at the Foundation to work in the film industry. The Foundation supported the limitation that only 25% of its income could be spent on administration costs. It was constantly trying to curb costs. It had only 22 staff members, compared with staff complements of more than 100 at comparable overseas organisations.

The Foundation believed that issues concerning its budget impacted negatively because it felt that it spent more time and money on ensuring that it complied with legislation, and the increasingly exacting, though necessary, requirements of the Auditor-General, rather than on its core business.

Discussion
The Chairperson asked if the Foundation had anything to offer to the rural people, because they were the most vulnerable and neglected as compared to the city dwellers.

The Chairperson asked Mr Mbalo to amplify further about the “moral imperative” that he had mentioned, which was the biggest problem in South Africa and in the whole of Africa.

Mr S Opperman (DA) said that the film industry needed to play a role in moral regeneration. The most important thing in the market place was ideas. The impact on the people of the products sold was evident.

Mr Opperman commented on ‘the matters of emphasis’ mentioned by the Auditor-General. He asked if the view expressed by the Chief Financial Officer was objective or subjective.

Mr Mbalo noted that the issues highlighted were not matters of emphasis but were other matters that the Auditor-General had raised.

Mr Opperman asked whether the Foundation, if in future it received any request to supply a specific artist, would, in the light of the Auditor-General’s observation, deal with the request in the same way.

Mr Opperman asked if the Sithengi festival was the only festival to receive funding from the Lotto.

Mr Opperman asked why the word ‘sun’ in the ‘Women of the Sun’ training programme was capitalised.

Mr Mbalo responded that the name of ‘Women of the Sun’ was ‘a branding issue’.

Mr G Lekgetho (ANC) asked from where the 100 trainees mentioned had come.

Mr Lekgetho asked how it was possible for the Foundation to ask the Committee to intervene when the matter of the R1.9 million owed by the National Lottery to the Sithengi festival was sub judice.

Mr Mbalo explained that the Foundation would prefer to withdraw the Sithengi festival matter from the court; it did not even have sufficient funds to pursue the matter in court. It was, however, proper, that it did everything possible to recover the money owed by the Lottery. Moreover, the Lottery was a state institution, so there was surely a need for intervention. The Foundation pleaded that the Committee intervene to try to reach settlement.

Mr H Maluleka (ANC) asked if there were any other matters that the Chief Financial Officer of the Foundation wished to present to the Committee.

The Chief Financial Officer said that there were none.

Ms P Tshwete (ANC) noted with concern that the Councils of entities were typically male dominated. She asked about the current composition of the Foundation’s Council. She said that the answer that the Committee always received from entities was that it was the Minister’s role to appoint the Council, not that of the entity’s management.

Mr Mbalo noted that the Foundation’s staff was more than 80% women; at the executive level women were 75% of the staff complement. Five members of the 12 member Council were women.

Ms Tshwete asked, in regard to Sediba, if there was any collaboration with other institutions and if there was any follow-up programme to market the trainees after they had completed their training.

Ms Tshwete asked if there was any collaboration with the Pan South African Language Board (PanSALB) to promote the indigenous languages.

Mr B Zulu (ANC) appreciated the number of bursaries provided to full-time students. He was worried about the insufficiency of television productions in indigenous languages. There was still a predominance of imported programmes that had a negative impact on the young. Programmes, especially at peak hours, were typically not representative of African culture.

Ms D Van der Walt (DA) asked for the names of the two feature films mentioned.

Mr Mbalo mentioned the great decline in indigenous films sponsored in South Africa. There were more films sponsored from outside South Africa that were being shot in South Africa with South African story lines. As long as South Africa was the minority investor, it lost creative control and that disempowered young talent.

More Than Just a Game was being premiered on 22 November 2007 at Durban as part of the Fifa World Cup draw. It was a wonderful story of how soccer had sustained the prisoners on Robben Island during their incarceration and how soccer brought all the different liberation movements together under a common theme, and how, when they played soccer, they forgot about ideological differences. The funding of the film and the story line had been discussed in parliament.

The truth of the matter was that there had not been a significant number of films produced during the past two years. The hype that was apparent two or three years previously had almost gone.

The Foundation was now emphasising script development to raise issues related to moral regeneration and presentation of South African stories and characters. With a properly developed script, raising funding would not be a problem. However, if South Africa was to remain in control of the creative development of those scripts, it had to remain a majority investor. The Foundation now worked closely with the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), which had been a major investor in local content.

The Foundation collaborated extensively with the SABC and other broadcasters. There had been a programme, New Directions, with M-Net; however, M-Net had not wanted the Foundation to invest money because M-Net had wanted to retain creative control. The content of television, including indigenous language content, was regulated by the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA). The Foundation’s mandate was to promote the making of films. The Foundation had to be very careful as to how far it intervened in the content of films; otherwise it would be accused of censorship. All films under the Foundation’s auspices were produced from the filmmaker’s perspective. The Foundation could make a decision whether to involve itself in making a film but could not tell the filmmakers how to tell or structure their stories. The Foundation was very willing to work with other institutions such as the Department of Arts and Culture towards moral regeneration and to ensure that the films would be acceptable to the viewers. The budget for such collaboration would come from the Department.

Many people came to the Foundation with proposals for films about AIDS. The Foundation was not mandated to make issue-driven films, and would advise the prospective film-makers to approach the Department of Health. Its mandate was to assist young filmmakers to make the films, irrespective of subject.

Mr Mbalo added that film making was a distinct profession, with different sub-specialities. A novelist would not necessarily be able to write a good screenplay; and adapting a stage play was a separate skill. The Foundation sought to train novelists to adapt their work.

The Foundation was a mediator between the state, the industry and society, and said to the industry that film making should be informed by market research and intelligence.

As a filmmaker himself, Mr Mbalo thought that it was possible to make an interesting political film that reflected the nation’s identity.

Mr Opperman asked if there was discrimination by the National Lottery against certain festivals.

Mr Mbalo said that he did not think that there was discrimination, but institutions were avoiding the National Lottery because of its failure to respond to applications. The Lottery was arguing with the Foundation about Sithengi on the basis that the Foundation had not provided sufficient reports, but the Foundation disputed that claim and alleged that it had submitted everything.

Iziko Museums of Cape Town Presentation
Professor Eltie Links, Chairperson of the Council of the Iziko Museums of Cape Town, an entity that comprised 12 formerly separate museums, invited the Committee to visit the Iziko Museums again in order to see them in action. The Council was very happy with the progress that had been made since the amalgamation. The Council had empowered the senior management team to enlarge the footprint of Iziko Museums and promote the organisation domestically and internationally, together with culture and heritage in general. The Chief Executive Officer was no longer immersed in as much administrative work as previously.

The Council wished, and had already started, to empower Iziko Museums to organise itself to play a full role in events leading up to the 2010 World Soccer Cup. Iziko Museums was fortunate to have a well-composed and constituted Council, which, although appointed late, had managed to work well. Progress included administrative improvements.

Professor Henry Bredekamp, Chief Executive Officer, noted that the executive report had been sent to Members a few days previously, and that Members were aware of the identity because of their recent visit to the Museum. However, he said that it was important to note the role of the Iziko Museums’ management as functionaries and executors. Iziko Museums’ governing body, appointed by the Minister of Arts and Culture, was accountable to the Minister, and ultimately to Parliament. All actions of the senior executive management and the professional support staff were guided by the six strategic goals of Iziko Museums.

With regards to the first strategic goal, to drive the transformation process according to national guidelines, it was true that the Iziko Museums had complied, as far as possible, with the Public Finance Management Act regulations. Also the Iziko Museums had complied as far as possible with labour and heritage legislation. Iziko Museums was also very excited about its successful partnership projects because it saw transformation at all the different levels of its operations. A memorandum of understanding existed with Freedom Park, and the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism was keen on a partnership between the Museum and his Department.

Ms Veliswa Baduza, Executive Director for Operations, noted that the second strategic goal was to achieve service excellence through management and development of human resources. There was an operations business unit that supported the core functions of Iziko Museums and the second phase of the realignment of the organisation’s structure was completed. Staff demographics were tabled. Iziko had a considerable number of skilled and qualified employees who had made their contributions in the heritage industry, and now Iziko Museums now faced the challenge of developing a succession plan. Targets were set using the Employment Equity Act, to ensure replacement in due course by appointees from within the designated groups. Iziko Museums’ staff complement was demographically representative of the population of the country as a whole and the Western Cape in particular. However, there was a challenge in establishing a pool of available skilled people from whom to make appointments. There was a need for a drive to encourage the younger members of the population to take up studies in the fields of science, social history and art collections.

Professor Bredekamp said that promoting the good health of employees at Iziko Museums was regarded as of the utmost importance. Various awareness programmes, listed in the presentation, had been conducted since 2002.

Ms Patricia Davidson, Executive Director for Core Functions, noted that the third strategic goal was to build, care for and interpret the collections and sites of Iziko Museums. Her unit was responsible for researching, managing and showcasing the Iziko Museums’ collections. Three papers by the Chief Executive Officer had been published, as had eight papers by professionals in the art collections department, 25 papers by scientists in the natural history collections departments, and one from Sarah Wurtz, a new member of the social history collections department. The second volume of the internationally acclaimed African Natural History Journal had appeared.

With regard to the fourth strategic goal, to improve and broaden accessibility to Iziko sites and collections, the Minister of Arts and Culture had been shocked by the state of the National Mutual Building during a visit in 2004. The building was currently undergoing major renovation and was predicted to become one of the major landmarks of Cape Town. The refurbishment had already cost R74 million. The Ministry of Arts and Culture, and the Ministry of Public Works should be commended for this vision. Equally important was Iziko Museums’ access project for persons with disabilities. The challenge was to convert so many very old and diverse buildings dating back to the 17^th century to make them accessible and user-friendly, while retaining and protecting their existing architectural and historical features. The matter would go out to tender in early 2008, and access to the Castle was a major project.

The fifth strategic goal was to unlock the educational potential of Iziko and showcase South Africa’s arts culture and natural history. The educational and public programmes had attracted over 198 000 visitors. A number of examples and achievements were listed in the presentation. Iziko Slave Lodge should be the gateway to the rest of Africa. The United Nations Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) had commended Iziko Museums, which was arguably the busiest museum in South Africa with regard to the display of Cape slavery.

The sixth strategic goal related to the financial statements. Iziko Museums had not only received an unqualified Auditor-General’s report for the fifth consecutive year, but in 2006-2007 had received no matters of emphasis. However, there were some other matters to which the management, with the guidance of the Council, of Iziko Museums was attending collectively.

Ms Faeza Allie, Chief Financial Officer, explained how the Government had funded Iziko Museums and how the funds had been expended. There had been a steady growth of 6% in the Government grant, which was not entirely adequate, but accepted as how the Department was funding. The income from gate revenue and hiring out venues made up to 25% of its funding. Some funding had also been obtained from the National Lottery and some private donors. 80% of the Government grant had been spent on personnel. Most of the major projects were funded from private donations. Iziko Museums had remained within its budget since 2003 and each year had achieved a small surplus generated from income earned. There was no obligation to return that money to the Treasury in terms of legislation. Instead it could be earmarked for projects in the following financial year.

In conclusion, Professor Bredekamp said that Iziko Museums needed a considerable increase in the subsidy allocation from the Treasury, via the Department of Arts and Culture, in order to enable it to realise its mission and vision beyond 2010, and hopefully the Portfolio Committee would assist.

Discussion
The Chairperson asked how Iziko Museums ploughed back its surplus into the communities.

Ms Davidson said that Iziko Museums’ largest area of ploughing back into the community was in its educational and outreach programmes. She could not be certain that Iziko Museums specifically used the surplus for this purpose but many programmes were community focused; the mobile museum took exhibits out to communities who would otherwise have no access. It was part of Iziko Museums’ mandate and something to which the organisation paid special attention

Mr Opperman asked why the Xhosa name ‘Iziko’ was chosen for the Museums.

Ms Tshwete said that one should consider the meaning of the word ‘Iziko’. It had the meaning of the place where life was centred.

Professor Bredekamp responded that the name ‘Iziko’ was an invention that Professor Bredekamp had inherited. He liked it, as it was clear and to the point. Some Afrikaaner people had challenged the name, but by this stage it had already at staff level become internalised, and this spread to the use by the majority of the public.

Mr Opperman he asked about the terminology used in the classifying the Museums’ staff composition. Given the removal of the Population Registration Act, he asked if Coloured people were any the less African.

Mr Maluleka commented that the classification of staff was aimed at redressing the imbalances of the past, and the terminology was used advisedly. He believed it was important to distinguish between “coloured” and “African”. He noted that everyone was “African” but he said the terms were understandable in their context.

Professor Bredekamp responded that ‘Africanness’ was an issue that he had debated with the National Heritage Council on Robben Island. Being African did not mean speaking an African language, but that a person was “of Africa”. Through historical records, Professor Bredekamp could trace his own ancestry back to 1738 in the German text. Through DNA he could trace his Khoisan roots back to the earliest times. One was African if one identified with Africa. However the current political dispensation had a dilemma. Parliament had given a clear understanding of the use of terminology, and Iziko Museums, as functionaries of the Department of Arts and Culture, and secondarily as functionaries of the Council of Iziko Museums, abided by that. It was indeed an issue of terminology.

Ms Baduza said that in terms of the Employment Equity Act, when the organisation reported to the Department of Labour on employment of persons from the designated groups, it was obligated to classify its staff according to those categories. Those categories were to a large extent informed to Iziko Museums by legislation.

Mr Opperman requested that the African Natural History journal could be sent to the Committee.

Ms Davidson said that she would arrange to supply the African Journal of Natural History, an annual journal accredited by the Department of Education, to the Committee on a regular basis.

Mr Opperman noted that long before slavery there were people present at the Cape. He asked how many of the Iziko Museums’ exhibitions related to the period before slavery, long before Europeans came to the Cape.

Ms Davidson noted that Iziko Museums had a strong pre-colonial archaeology section, including an exhibit on the middle stone age and illustrating the ‘cradle of creativity’ that was located in the southern Cape. The military museum at the Castle did not fall under the auspices of Iziko. There was a need, however, the redress the balance and tell the stories that needed to be told of the people who had been incarcerated there.

Professor Bredekamp added that the British High Commissioner would hand over the Wilberforce documents to Iziko Museums, at the Slave Lodge on 22 November 2007. The Committee was invited. The year 2008 would be the 200^th anniversary of the first slave revolt in South Africa.

Mr Maluleka asked if the Iziko Museums had already begun to address the issues raised by the Auditor-General in his report under other matters.

Professor Bredekamp said that the Auditor-General had raised other matters, not matters of emphasis.

Ms Faeza Allie, Chief Financial Officer, elaborated on further details. With regard to matters of governance, the first matter had to do with internal audit plans that were not approved. There had at the time been no Council to approve them. Iziko Museums’ internal audit committee’s term had ended at the end of February 2007. This meant that in the absence of a Council, it was not possible to appoint a replacement audit committee.

Ms Tshwete praised the work of the staff of Iziko Museums.

Ms Tshwete noted that in the Annual Report there was a predominance of zero values in the category of skilled agricultural and fishery workers. She asked why.

Ms Baduza noted that the skilled agricultural and fishery workers, on page 64 of the Annual Report, was an employment category for reporting purposes; however, Iziko Museums would never have any number of staff in that category because the organisation had no need for such staff on account of the nature of its operations. It was a helpful suggestion of Ms Tshwete to remove that category, because its appearance in the table gave the appearance of a lack of staff. However, by the nature of the Iziko Museums’ functions, it would never have a reason for employing a number of such staff.

Mr Zulu asked how many young people were being trained to take over when the existing staff retired. He commented on the exhibits at the Castle and asked for further details of Iziko Museums’ programme to make the museums more accessible to persons with disabilities.

Professor Bredekamp said that Iziko Museums was struggling, on account of insufficient funding, with the plan to train younger people to take over from staff who retired.

Ms Davidson reported success in key curatorship areas in natural history and in social history as well in recruiting young people from the designated demographic groups. It was indeed a challenge to find young people who were appropriately qualified, but Iziko Museums was emphasising that the organisation wanted to recruit people who had the potential to succeed. It had made considerable progress in attracting young curators who would be able eventually to take over from those who had been in posts for many years. The internship programme to be launched 22 November 2007 would offer defined employment within Iziko Museums for 50% of interns who completed the programme successfully.

Professor Bredekamp provided additional explanation on access to Iziko Museums’ facilities for persons with disabled persons.

Ms Van der Walt was curious about the Social History Resource Centre. She asked if Church Square, in front of the Centre was paved with a view to events that would be held at the Centre. The paving appeared very cold and harsh. Perhaps grass would have been more attractive. Use of the square by informal traders would detract from the beautiful appearance of the building.

Professor Bredekamp said that the Iziko Social History Resource Centre would be available for occupation not later than July 2008. Church Square was the property of the City of Cape Town. It was set aside for people rather than for cars. There would be stalls to make it ‘alive’ and encourage people to socialise in an attractive area between the Groote Kerk and the Iziko Social History Resource Centre, a building that had been designed by Sir Herbert Baker.

The meeting was adjourned.