Demobilisation Amendment Bill; Termination of Integration Intake Bill: hearings

DEFENCE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
2 October 2001
DEMOBILISATION AMENDMENT BILL; TERMINATION OF INTEGRATION INTAKE BILL: HEARINGS

Chairperson: Ms T Modise

Documents issued:
Demobilisation Amendment Bill [B5-2001]
Termination of Integration Intake Bill [B 6-2001]
MK submissions on both Bills (Appendix 1)
APLA submission on both Bills (Appendix 2)
South African Cape Corps (SACC) submission (Appendix 3)

SUMMARY
The meeting discussed the submissions from the Apla Veterans Association and Mkhonto We Sizwe Military Veterans Association on the Demobilisation Amendment Bill and the Termination of Integration Intake Bill. Both Apla and MK reported that some of their members, for various reasons, could not integrate even though their names were in the Certified Personnel Register (CPR). Others do not appear in the CPR but they would like to integrate or get a demobilisation gratuity. Both MK and Apla accepted responsibility for the cause of these problems. For these reasons they asked the Committee to extend the passing of the Bills to 31 March 2002 and 30 September 2002 respectively. They both made an undertaking to compile their lists before the closure of Parliament on the 16 November 2001.

The South African Cape Corps representative insisted that the Cape Corps had forced out of the SADF inorder to "make way for Apla and MK". As they did not have clear information on the circumstances, the Committee felt it best that the representative continue with his intention to take the government to the Constitutional Court over the issue.

MINUTES
The Chairperson gave a brief background to the entire integration into the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) of the various army formations: Azanian Peoples Liberation Army (Apla), Umkhonto WeSizwe (MK), the South African Defence Force (SADF) and the armies of the former homelands of Transkei, Bophuthatswana Venda and Ciskei (TBVC).

There were submissions from Apla and MK and the South African Cape Corps.

Presentation by Major-General Modise (MK)
Major-General Modise (MK) of the SANDF stated that there are bona fide members of Umkhonto We Sizwe who for various reasons do not appear on the Certified Personnel Register (CPR) but whose names do appear on the MK's personnel list. Since they do not appear on the CPR, these people are excluded from integration and demobilization. These people are not responsible for their predicament. There are various reasons for their not being integrated, among them:
- These members had no communication with ANC or MK registration points because they were in remote areas.
- There are those names that were wrongly captured in the database, either the data capturers spelt their names wrongly or their were omitted altogether.
- There are those who came back to the country after 1996.
- There are those who due to ill-health could not register as they could not travel.

General Modise said all these cases have been discussed since 1996. These men and women have been taken from pillar to post with no one willing to take responsibility for them. He appealed to the Committee that they should make a decision on this matter and accord these ex-combatants their rights.

Discussion
Mr R Jankielsohn (DP) said he could sense that General Modise has no problem with the Bill itself, it is merely a question of dates. Secondly, MK members themselves might not be responsible for this problem. Was it the responsibility of the Department or an administrative problem within MK itself, that these members are not registered?

Gen. Modise replied the responsibility for the capturing of the data lay within the offices of the MK and the SADF.

Mr L Ngculu (ANC) reiterated the point that seemingly Gen. Modise had no problem with the Termination of Integration Bill.

Gen. Modise replied that they agree with the termination of integration because the process cannot go on indefinitely. However they are asking that a mechanism be put in place for these outstanding people to be in the last intake.

In response to the Chairperson asking how many people, the General replied that he is talking of not more than 300 people.

Mr H Schmidt (DP) asked what had happened to the 280 people who were said not to be in the CPR list in a previous meeting, did they form part of this 300?

Gen. Modise clarified that there are people who appear in the CPR but who had never reported, they number 12 500. Those did not integrate and even include people who have passed away, so Mr Schmidt is referring to that which is not the 300 under discussion.

Mr Schmidt wanted to know of the 300 people that Gen. Modise is talking about, how many intend to integrate rather than demobilize?

Gen. Modise replied that the fact that these people have only military skills suggests that they would like to be in the defence force. However their eligibility will also depend on their physical and mental condition.

The Chairperson asked whether this implies that the General is not aware of the physical condition and age of these 300 members.

Gen. Modise replied that it is difficult to know these details as it has been a long time since he has last met some of these people. Some could be over the age limit or too ill, others might not even have the necessary education level, which is standard six.

Mr Jankielsohn asked when contact had last been made with these people and whether there was a list of their names and contact details.

Gen. Modise replied that there are lists of these people in the ANC national and provincial offices. They merely to collect them from the different provinces and make them into one list.

The Chairperson said it would be better for that data to be collected and categorized and made available to the Committee. An indication has to be given as to how many of these 300 non-CPR listed people would qualify for integration in the defence force.

Mkhonto We Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA) submission
Mr Deacon S Mathe, Chairperson of the Mkhonto We Sizwe Military Veterans Association, noted that the Association has a constituency of 45 000 spread all over South Africa. MKMVA proposed that a closing date of 31 September 2002 would provide an opportunity to the state and relevant organisations to more adequately deal with the matters in the Integration Bill. (For more details, see submission).

Discussion
The Chairperson asked Mr Mathe whether he concurs with the number of 300 mentioned by General Modise.

Mr Mathe agreed but said that the number excludes some of their members who are in the provinces so it might be over 300. He noted that there had been difficulty in reaching all the people. He added that it would be important for them to update their database to ensure that they have the correct numbers at hand.

Mr Schmidt found it difficult that Mr Mathe did not have a fixed number available. Mr Mathe should tell them how many people are in their database.

Mr Mathe said he is definitely sure that they have a list of 300.

Mr Ngculu pointed out that the Association is suggesting the 31 September 2002 for the termination of integration and asked if they confident that the 300-plus people would have been enlisted by then. Secondly, are they agreeing with the proposal in the Bill that the demobilisation date be set out by the Minister?

Mr Mathe said they fully agree with that, however, it is very critical to consider all the inputs that have been made. The 31 September 2002 date for the termination of integration makes sense to them because most people are still spread all over the country and this date will allow them to round up these people.

Mr S Ntuli (ANC) said it seemed agreeable to them that the Demobilisation Bill would be effected by 31 March 2002. Regarding the problems that have been noted, is there any definite mechanism to ensure that the problems would be dealt with within five months.

Mr Mathe assured the Committee that they would put in place a competent structure that will be able to meet the deadline.

Mr Ngculu asked if MKMVA have members in prison and if they have, are they included in the 300 names? Secondly, was the structure Mr Mathe was talking about, able to avoid fraud in the integration process?

Mr Mathe replied that prisoners had been taken care of in these figures. He conceded that inappropriate mechanisms had been put in place when the whole framework of demobilisation was introduced. The most unfortunate part is that they need to go back to the very same people who delayed administering the process and get them to understand the problems and weaknesses in that system. Based on that, they would establish the structure that will deal with the problems effectively.

Ms Z Kota (ANC) asked if their proposed date would cater for those who are still in exile as there are people in Tanzania who still want to come back.

Mr Mathe replied that for those outside the country, they would utilise the high commissions and embassies to identify them so that they could get the exact number for the Committee.

Mr Schmidt wanted clarity on the proposed date as two dates are mentioned: 31 March and 31 September 2002.

Mr Mathe replied that the 31 March 2002 is for demobilisation and the 31 September is for termination of integration.

The Chair noted the Association's proposal about the recognition of qualifications from the Eastern Bloc and said that this suggests that there is no rapport between MK offices and the SANDF. He noted that there had been many complaints from MK members that their previous experience is not recognised in the SANDF and asked for comment.

Mr Mathe acknowledged that this is really a problem. Military organisations by nature are very clandestine and this creates constraints for them to link with SANDF structures. There is rapport at the executive level, but those offices are not accessible to the general membership.

The Chairperson asked Mr Mathe if they have control over the offices that are called "MK offices" in the SANDF because she had been trying to call those offices but to no avail.

Mr Mathe said he does not think those offices are efficient as there is always no response. There is no relationship with the public and this again is because of the clandestine nature of the SANDF. He asked General Modise to comment on this.

General Modise said it should be taken into consideration that these offices are operated by officers who are under command of their senior officers. These officers can listen but they cannot take any decision - they have to wait for orders from their superiors. So in this case their seniors might not be sympathetic to the problems of the general membership.

The Chairperson said that this means these officers who are supposed to be liaising with the general membership are not doing their work - this is just window dressing. She added that problems of integration are increasing rather than decreasing.

Gen Modise commented that anyone who goes to these offices has to interact with junior officers who are there as recording officers. These junior officers then report to their superiors who are supposed to make the decisions. Another problem is that the MK structure is not recognised in the defence force so these people do not want to stay there any longer as their career in the defence force is at stake. They man those offices in their spare time because there are no career prospects in working at those offices.

Mr Ngculu said that the 1997 British Military Advisory Training Team (BMATT) report had noted this problem of the recognition of qualifications. Does MKMVA have assurance that within these 300 names there are people with qualifications that would need to be considered? Secondly, are there particular measures required to confirm those qualifications such as testimonials from senior MK officers.

Mr Mathe said there are some people who have proof of academic and military qualifications. However, other people do not have proof and they would like to have a list of those people who do not have documents in order to confirm their qualifications. He thought that the commanders who had trained these people could make an affidavit to that effect.

Mr Schmidt said it is very important for any organisation to verify and substantiate their request. If they keep the "flood gates" open, is it not going to mean an open-ended list with many people coming in? He asked when the Committee can expect to get those figures.

Mr Mathe replied that they have to develop criteria that will help them determine exactly who qualifies in terms of these two Bills. However, it is very difficult to avoid fraud. He assured the Committee that the list would be available before Parliament closes this year.

The Chairperson noted that Parliament would be closing mid-November and asked Mr Mathe if he is promising the Committee that the list would be available by 16 November 16. Mr Mathe undertook to do this by that date.

Apla Veterans Association submission on Demobilisation Amendment Bill
Mr Joe Mkhwanazi stated that many Apla members had not received their demobilization gratuity and the Bill would exclude such Apla cadres. Their applications had not been approved or they had not received a reply from the department. Reasons for this were a flawed verification process, administrative discrepancies or poor communication. Although in their submission, they were suggesting the 31 December 2002, they would concur with MK and propose the 31 September 2002 as the closure date. (For more details, see submission).

Discussion
Mr Jankielsohn said the submission was full of allegations and, to a large degree, it was very elusive and vague. He wanted to know how many Apla members there are.

Mr Mkhwanazi replied that he is talking of 500 people but they have the same problem as MKMVA, that of communication breakdown. At the beginning of the process some members were suspicious of integration, as a result they did not want to furnish information. But now they have indicated that they want to join SANDF. Mr Mkhwanazi promised that they would set up proper mechanisms to find these people.

In answer to Mr Schmidt asking if he would give the same undertaking as MKMVA to provide list before 16 November, Mr Mkhwanazi said that he would.

Mr Ngculu asked if the names mentioned here are those in the CPR list or were they left out of the CPR? Because the point here is to bring people who are in the CPR but could not integrate.

Mr Mkhwanazi replied that the list includes both those who are in the CPR and those that have been left out because of the reasons that have been mentioned earlier.

Mr Mathe said their situation is the same as APLA. The MK personnel list shows names of people who have been excluded from the CPR. Some of the names are omitted and some are even repeated in the CPR.

The Chairperson said the Committee hoped that Apla and MK would not go out and recruit members to be included in the CPR.

Apla submission on Termination of Integration Intake Bill
Mr Johnson Mlambo stated that they oppose the Bill as it stands. He urged the Committee to apply its mind and loyalty to the country as opposed to party political interests. He appealed to the Committee that the cadres who had been given skills to fight for and defend liberation gains be given an opportunity by the current government to help consolidate those gains. (For more details, see submission).

Discussion
The Chairperson asked Mr Mlambo is he prepared to be bound by the same undertaking made by Mr Mkhwanazi, to which he replied that he was.

Mr Ngculu noted that they had been given a report in the Integration Oversight Committee which stated that the numbers for integration were not more that 264. He wanted to know whether the names are included in the numbers that have just been mentioned.

Mr Mlambo replied that he is not talking about a huge number but pointed out that Apla has no representative in the Defence Advisory Council. This impacts negatively in terms of flow of information.

In answer to the Chairperson asking what aspect of the Bill they rejected, Mr Mlambo said that it was only the date as they are not opposed to integration being brought to an end.

The Chairperson wanted to know from Mr Mlambo whether there is an implication that Poqo [their early military wing] in particular was not treated well. If that is the case, would they as leaders of Poqo take responsibility for that?

Mr Mlambo agreed that as the political leadership of PAC, they do take responsibility for that. He added that the integration process was led by people in Apla who had no background of Poqo and their knowledge of Poqo was not as good as it should have been. As a result, some Poqo members names do not appear on the CPR. Apla members who were involved in the integration had a list of only Apla members who were to form part of the new national defence force.

In answer to Mr Schmidt asking what Poqo is, Mr Mlambo explained that when the PAC was formed in 1959 as a breakaway from the ANC, people said "now we have got the organisation of the African people" and that is where the name Poqo comes from. Poqo later became the first military wing of the PAC after its 1960 banning. The name was later changed to the Azanian People's Liberation Army (APLA).

South African Cape Corps (SACC) submission
Mr Henry January played a video which showed the South African Cape Corps involvement with the former South African Defence Force in the 1980s. He told the Committee that they were an integral part of the SADF and they would like to be treated thus.

Discussion
Mr Ramushu (ANC) asked, if the South African Cape Corps had been trained by the SADF, why did the SADF not integrate them into the new South African National Defence Force?

Mr January replied that they had had discussions with former President de Klerk who had denied them their right to be part of the defence force. Later they had spoken to former President Mandela who also denied this right. Mr January said that they had now decided to take the current President to the Constitutional Court.

Mr Ngculu said that this decision to go to court restricts any other serious intervention on this matter because comments that the Committee may make could be used in their court case. He continued that it was not correct to claim that the Cape Corps were not white enough before 1994 and not black enough after 1994. Mr January himself says that the Cape Corps was an integral part of the SADF, therefore arguments and complaints should have been directed to the SADF. The SADF had to look at the interests of its subsidiaries in the same way as Apla and MK is looking after the interests of their members.

Mr N Middleton (IFP) concurred with Ngculu that the matter is subjudice but said that he would like to direct questions to SANDF members present in the meeting. He asked Admiral Bakkes and General Delmonte whether it was true that the Cape Corps were an integral part of the SADF. If true, was their case taken up by the SADF during the discussions on demobilisation and integration and were they represented?

Adm Bakkes agreed that the Cape Corps were an integral part of the SADF. To his knowledge, the SADF did not single out individual battalions or corps during integration and all SADF members were treated on an equal basis in terms of the agreements on integration and demobilisation.

Mr Middleton asked if there were any Cape Corps members who had integrated in the integration process.

Adm Bakkes replied that all people who were serving in the SADF at that time were integrated, including the Cape Corps. Those who left prior 1994 were not integrated.

Mr Schmidt asked Mr January if they wanted to be integrated or demobilised in terms of the two Bills or do they want the Bills to be amended?

Mr January said that they would like the Bills to be amended. The court case depends on the position the Committee takes. If the Committee agrees to the Bills, then their case will continue. Mr January denied that the matter is subjudice because the court case has not yet commenced. Secondly, he denied that Cape Corps members had integrated. He argued that they had been told to make way for Apla and MK.

The Chairperson repeated what had been said by Admiral Bakkes and asked why the Cape Corps had chosen not to be part of the integration process. She added that for Mr January to say "they were told to make way for Apla and MK" would lose them sympathy. During negotiations, the SADF represented each structure that belonged to them including the Cape Corps as they were part of the Statutory Force. The Non Statutory Forces (NSF) were represented in order for them to be part of the new defence force. At no stage did the bringing in of the NSF mean the removal of the Cape Corps. She wondered where the Cape Corps had been lost in the process of integration.

Mr January argued that he was a serving Lieutenant in the Cape Corps prior to 1994 and what had happened was they had been told by their white superiors that they should leave and make way for Apla and MK.

Mr Schmidt asked if the Cape Corps terms of employment were the same as those of the SADF because, as he understood it, there were fixed term contracts which were not the same as those of the SADF.

Gen Delmonte replied that the permanent force members of the Cape Corps had the same contracts as the white members. There were different troops within the Cape Corps. Some were voluntary forces as the Defence Act of the previous government had made provision not only for national service for whites but also for Coloureds to volunteer for national service. The Cape Corps also had a reserve force and a permanent force component which had the same contracts as whites. There were short, medium and long-term service systems.

The Chairperson asked what would be the rationale for the whole of the Cape Corps to feel displaced and, as Mr January had said, to be told to make way for others if they had the same contracts as white members?

Gen. Delmonte said he could not deny that such a statement had been made if Mr January feel so strongly about it but what he could say was that it was not National Defence policy. The statement must have been made in a private or semi-private capacity.

In reply to the Chairperson asking what was the nature of the contract that they had entered into with the SADF, Mr January said that they had had a permanent contract with the SADF.

The Chairperson wanted to know how the Cape Corps had been kicked out of the process. If certain white officers had said that they must give way for Apla and MK, they should be called upon to explain - if they are still in the defence force. She repeated that the SADF had been negotiating on behalf of all its members including the Cape Corps and she wanted to know how they got lost.

Mr January said the SABC is in possession of video material of events in Kimberly where Cape Corps members had been physically forced out of the military base. They had not retaliated because they knew that they were in a new dispensation. In a meeting with the former President Mandela, former Minister Modise and deputy Minister Kasrils, the then Chief of the SANDF, General Meiring, had said he would decide the criteria for the Cape Corps to integrate but he had not done so. Instead a month thereafter, he had resigned.

Dr S Mogoba (PAC) commented that they were dealing with a pathetic case of apartheid and this issue must be faced somehow. If the Cape Corps were really part of the SADF then they have a case in saying they were left out. But also the Cape Corps had made a mistake in being quiet all these years because they should have protested loudly at the time when they were chased out.

Mr Ngculu did not think the Committee should take a problem they do not understand and put it on the shoulders of the present government. They could not be told there is a case when the case could not be properly explained in this meeting. As long as the question as to what went wrong is unanswered, they cannot consider the matter. He said Mr January referred to "my people", where are those people, how many are they and how organized are they?

Mr January replied that from their inception in 1963, there had been a total of 150 000 members, but there are 27 000 members who are eligible for integration. They are organized as a former SACC members forum.

In answer to Mr Ngculu asking if these numbers could be verified, Mr January said the defence headquarters could verify these numbers.

Ms Kota suggested that as it is difficult to get the information that is needed from the Cape Corps, the matter should go before the Constitutional Court. Hopefully the court would establish the reasons that they were kicked out of the SADF which is important for the Committee to know. Consequently, there should be no dilemma in passing the Bill.

Admiral Bakkes noted that in 1994, of the total of 82 700 SADF members, there were 12 183 Coloured SADF members. By 2001, the number had been reduced to 78 700, of which 9 537 were Coloured SADF members.

In conclusion the Chairperson said that the Committee would look at the submissions by Apla and MK and they would make a decision thereafter. Concerning the Cape Corps, she said the Cape Corps should take the matter to the Constitutional Court because the Bill was going to be passed anyway. They were still welcome to contact the Committee again if they felt there was anything that needed to be discussed.

Appendix 1
Submissions to the Defence Portfolio Committee - 01 October 2001
by Mkhonto We Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA)

(a) Demobilisation Amendment Bill B [5-2001]
1. Introduction
Umkhonto we Sizwe, the former military wing of the African National Congress was dissolved before the 1994 national democratic elections. UMkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA) was established in 1996 to mobilize all former combatants of Umkhonto we Sizwe with the purpose of integrating them into society. The MKMVA has a constituency of 45 000 people spread all over the Republic of South Africa. Our membership compliment is spread and organised into nine (9) provincial structures represented by Provincial Executive Committees.

The MKMVA is represented on the Advisory Military Veterans Board (AMVB) with other
military veterans associations i.e. Council for Military Veterans Organisation and the Azanian
Peoples Liberation Army.

2. Purpose
The MKMVA seeks to make a meaningful contribution in the amendment of the Bill regarding the closing date on the Demobilisation Act, 1996, (Act No.99 of 1996)

3. Submission
In terms of the Demobilisation Act, 1996, the closing date 31 March 2001 as defined herein does not provide comprehensive time-frame from which all demobilised members of both former APLA and MK can apply for demobilisation for reasons stipulated in sub-section 'a' and 'b' of paragraph '1' of the explanatory summary of the Bill.

Facts have it proved, that a reasonable time frame will be required in dealing with the demobilisation process effectively. Noting the geographical outlay of the country, effective mechanisms are success keys in informing and reaching all the potential persons to be demobilised. Additionally, communication infrastructure in the less populated areas is not effective especially in the larger provinces covering the rural areas.

The closing date to be determined by the Minister of Defence, should phenomenally be informed by all considerations imposing limitations on achieving the objective to successfully demobilise the APLA and MK forces as defined in the explanatory summary.

4. Proposal
Having investigated the limitations of the present Demobilisation Act, 1996, MKMVA herein proposes that a fixed date of 31 March 2002 be considered as the 'closing date' in the amendment of the Demobilisation Bill. The proposed 'closing date' could be streamlined with the financial year-end 2001/2002 simultaneously enabling both the former APLA and MK forces eligible for demobilisation to apply timeously.

The previous demobilisation process had too many loose ends, which led to people who did not qualify benefiting from the system as a result. Stringent measures would have to be put in place to abate unnecessary constraints. Should the Minister of Defence consider our submission, the time frame proposed would avail the administers of the bill to develop a waterproofed system.

5. Conclusion

The MKMVA Provincial and National Executive Committees are receiving on the daily basis enquiries from our membership who, although qualify for demobilisation according to the Demobilisation Act, 1996, but have not demobilised. An extension of the 'closing date' with time frames of five to six months should avail those eligible sufficient time to demobilise.

(b) Termination of Integration Intake Bill B [6-2001]
1. Introduction
Umkhonto we Sizwe, the former military wing of the African National Congress was dissolved before the 1994 national democratic elections. UMkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA) was established in 1996 to mobilize all former combatants of Umkhonto we Sizwe with the purpose of integrating them into society. The MKMVA has a constituency of 45 000 people spread all over the Republic of South Africa. Our membership compliment is spread and organised into nine (9) provincial structures represented by Provincial Executive Committees.

The MKMVA is represented on the Advisory Military Veterans Board (AMVB) with other military veterans associations i.e. Council for Military Veterans Organisation and the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army.

2. Purpose
The MKMVA seeks to make a meaningful contribution in the amendment of the Bill regarding the closing date on the Termination of Integration Intake Act, 2001,

3. Submission
In terms of the Act, the closing date 31 March 2001 as defined herein does not provide comprehensive time-frame for contemplated agreements to be concluded with the National Defence Force by the former members of APLA and MK.

Facts have it proved, that a reasonable time frame will be required in dealing with the process effectively. Noting the geographical outlay of the country, effective mechanisms are success keys in informing and reaching all the potential persons to understand the processes as stipulated in the bill.

The closing date to be determined by the Minister of Defence should phenomenally be informed by all considerations which impose limitations on achieving the objective as indicated in the explanatory summary.

Proposal
Having investigated the limitations of the present Act, 2001, MKMVA herein proposes that the following be considered in the formulation of the bill:

Reasonable time frame-
The Closing Date of 31 September 2002 will provide an opportunity to the state and relevant NGO's to adequately deal with the bill.

Recognition of qualifications-
Qualifications obtained in the former Eastern Block Countries both military and academic qualifications have not been fully recognised for purposes of integration, posting and ranking of the Non-Statutory Forces.

Service-
Full recognition of prior service of the Non-Statutory Forces (NSF) in the National Liberation Movements and cut-off dates before 1994 National Democratic Elections to be considered.

Age limit-
The age limit of 35th birthday by 1996 of the NSF members completely excludes some members of the NSF who automatically qualify like any other member by virtue of their involvement and participation in the National Liberation Struggle.

Those who cannot be integrated according to the Termination of integration Intake Bill should not be restricted to be enlisted in the National Reserve forces of RSA. This would also streamline the one Force concept according to the SANDF HR 2010 strategy.

5. Conclusion

The MKMVA Provincial and National Executive Committees are receiving on the daily basis enquiries from our membership who never had an opportunity to apply for contractual agreements with the National Defence Force according to the Bill.

Appendix 2:
Submissions to the Defence Portfolio Committee - 02 October 2001
By ex Apla Military Commission, ex Apla High Command and Apla Veterans Association

(a) Public Hearings on the Demobilisation Amendment Bill
Introduction
We are painfully aware that many members of Apla, particularly Poqo have not received their demobilisation gratuity. We therefore wish to state that the Bill as it stands seeks to exclude Apla cadres.

Facts/Reasons
1. Applications for demobilisation gratuity were not approved, or applicants never received any form of reply from the Department.
2. Verification process was flawed.
3. Administrative discrepancies disadvantaged our members.
4. The Bill seeks to violate a legitimate right of our children who may be beneficiaries in the event of death of a member from Apla.
5. Most of our senior cadres have retired to rural areas and because of this they are disadvantaged as a result of poor communication.

Recommendations
1. We recommend that the process should be allowed to continue and include those members of Apla who were excluded unjustly from the process
2. 31^st December 2002 may be a correct date of closure if a provision is made by this Committee to see to it that all Apla cadres are included in the process.

Conclusion
Many deserving cadres are struggling to make ends meet, as most of their life span has been devoted to the liberation of this country.

Lastly, we appeal for a rectification of a highly discriminatory nature of the whole
process of demobilisation benefits. It is a travesty of justice that former
Commanders-in-Chief of Apla should receive peanuts when the likes of General
George Meiring retire with millions and many more benefits.

(b) Public Hearings on the Termination of Integration Intake Bill
Introduction
Change is always met with resistance at any given time. The same applies to our New Constitutional Democracy. While this is so, some of our cadres were deployed throughout the country.

As we were supported by the poorest of the poor, lack of resources was a major factor in as far as mobilising our forces to the National Assembly points.

We stand opposed to the termination of the Integration Intake Bill, as it stands. Hence we are here to appeal to you honourable members of Parliament, to honestly, genuinely apply your loyalty to the country, as opposed to party political interests i.e. lets put the interest of the country first.

Facts/Reasons - Why we are opposed to the Bill
- PAC formed its military wing inside (South Africa) Azania.
- APLA was led by the PAC National Leadership i.e. Politics led the gun.
- Resources were inadequate to allow for adequate and effective counselling, because all along Apla regarded SADF as enemy number one.
- We were the last Liberation Movement to suspend the armed struggle.
- The then Commander-in-Chief of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army, clearly stated to the nation; that the message of suspending armed struggle was going to take time before it reaches forces who are in the bush, this was due to the lack of resources.
- As a country we failed those cadres who were and are still in prison when we placed a noble cause of Liberation Struggle on equal pedestal with Crime Against Humanity - Apartheid. This led to the cadres treating the process with suspicion.
- Integration was done on the basis of SADF and its infrastructure,
- There was administration oversight from SANDF and a lack of continuity of integration officers.
- Some members had problems with their ID's.
- Discrimination as a factor, e.g. Eugene de Kock, Gen. Magnus Malan, Dr Basson are all apartheid security force members as opposed to the Apla former Director of Operations L Mphahlele.

Recommendations
- Review dismissals through court martials and resignations.
- Apla must be given an opportunity to include names of its cadres who were left out in the CPR.
- Inclusion of names of cadres appearing in the CPR who were never called up for integration.
- Integration Intake be terminated with effect from 31st December 2002.

In conclusion we are submitting that the cadres who have been given skills to fight for and defend liberation gains be given an opportunity by our current government to help consolidate those gains.