Deliberations
NCOP Rules of the National Council of Provinces
01 November 2006
Meeting Summary
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Meeting report
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES RULES COMMITTEEDELIBERATIONS
1 NOVEMBER
2006
These minutes were
provided by the National Council of Provinces Tabled Staff
|
PRESENT
Hollander, Ms P M (Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP)
Dlulane, Ms B N
Goeieman, Mr C M
Hendricks,
Mack, Mr N J
Matlanyane, Ms H F
Mokoena, Kgoshi L M
Nyanda, Ms M F
Ntuli, Mr Z C
Oliphant, Mrs M N
(House Chairperson)
Terblanche, Ms J
Tlhagale Mr J O
Van Heerden,
Dr F J
Watson, Mr A
Windvoël, Mr V V Z
(Chief Whip of the NCOP)
IN ATTENDANCE: Staff: Adv. L L Matyolo-Dube, Adv. B V L Momoti, Mr S Makhasi, Mr B Nonyane, Ms J A Borien, Mr M
Tyumre, Mr M Nguqu, Ms V Mnana, Ms S Bowers, Mr M Tshaiviti.
1.OPENING
The Deputy
Chairperson of the NCOP, Ms PM Hollander, opened the meeting at 10:00 and
welcomed all to the meeting.
2. APOLOGIES
The
following apologies were received:
Chairperson of
the NCOP Mr MJ Mahlangu, House Chairperson Mr. TS Setona, Mr MA Mzizi and Ms
Motlhoahela
3. ADOPTION
OF AGENDA
The agenda
was adopted with additions.
4.
CONSIDERATION OF THE MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF 20 SEPTEMBER
2006
The minutes
were adopted as a correct reflection of the meeting of 20 September 2006.
5. MATTERS
ARISING FROM THE MINUTES OF 20 SEPTEMBER 2006
Follow up workshop on Joint Programming
Ms Oliphant
reported that the workshop on programming was held with Provincial Chairpersons
of Chairpersons, Chief Whips, NA House Chairpersons and NCOP House
Chairpersons. The workshop dealt with some of the issues but it was agreed that
there would be a follow up workshop in January 2007.
6. MATTERS
ON THE AGENDA
6.1.
Discipline – Parties to report back
Dr. Van Heerden referred to a document (report
of the subcommittee on Review of Rules) issued on the previous meeting 20
September 2006 regarding the appointment of outside legal
representation.
Ms. Oliphant stated that, the document was
distributed to all members to read and consider and that all political parties
were to comment on whether they supported what appeared in the document before
the committee was established. Her
understanding was that each political party had to indicate whether they agreed
in terms of what was in the document. She suggested that after presentation by
the parties the committee should take a decision or that a decision be
deferred.
The Chief Whip also raised the point that if
political parties had submissions to make then they should present them to the
meeting. Thereafter the parties gave their comments as follows:
Freedom Front Plus
Dr Van Heerden referred the members to the
document dated 19 September 2006 – “Procedure to be followed in the
investigation and determination of misconduct and contempt of Parliament”
Paragraph 1 & 3 refer to legal
representation by a person who is not an MP. He said that in complex matters
members might need legal representation.
He stated that there were several members of
Parliament who were competent lawyers and that might not be financially viable
for a member to employ outside legal advice. He questioned why was a member who
was a lawyer not be able to represent a colleague, be that of the same party or
another party in order to save costs?
Democratic
Mr. Watson stated that as he had indicated at
the previous meeting, the DA had no reservation on a committee being
established because the Constitution enjoined the NCOP to do so and the Act
that followed the Constitution, the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of
Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act No. 4 in section 12 (1) actually
stipulates that the “Subject to this Act the House has all the
powers which are necessary for the enquiry into and pronouncing upon any act
for matters declared by or under section 13 to be in contempt of Parliament by
a member and taking disciplinary action provided therefore”. He said
that the composition of this committee was not debatable in terms of the
content and the disciplinary nature thereof. He mentioned that the Act provided
that the House must appoint a standing committee to deal with all the enquiries
referred to in subsection 1. He had looked for the definition of the standing
committee in both the Act and the Rules and found that both referred to
committees and not to a standing committee per se. His understanding of a
standing committee was that, it was a committee appointed on a permanent basis.
He said that by virtue of the spirit of parliament and democracy, standing
committees must be represented proportionally by all parties represented in a
House or in the Houses. He did not think that it was a point of debate when he
suggested that the same formula was used for oversees travel be adopted once
the number of members to serve on the committee has been determined.
He said that the DA proposal was that the
committee should be represented by all parties and they had a problem with the
interpretation of the position of a standing committee. He asked what the
position would be, if a standing committee has a standing committee of five (as
the Chairperson recommended) and two of those members were in contempt? Did the
three remaining members have the right to consider the misdemeanours of those
two members?
He referred the meeting to the National Assembly
where ad hoc committees were appointed representing all the parties. He said an
ad hoc committee would eliminate the problems of members on the committee
themselves being the subject of investigations for contempt or disciplinary action.
Mr Watson reiterated that before the DA could finally pronounce themselves the
composition of the committee was vital.
In summary the DA raised the following:
·
They had no reservation about the
committee being established;
·
The composition of the committee was
vital;
·
They suggested that the committee be
represented by all parties;
·
They called for a final structured
document with powers and functions;
·
They queried what were the extended
functions of the committee;
·
They suggested recourse for a member
found guilty (provision for appeal);
The Chief Whip said that parties should be
requested to make written submissions because it would have allowed for a
systematic discussion.
He said that there are certain parameters and
principles which were agreed upon in the last meeting. He stated that there was
an agreement that the committee should be five. This could not be based on
proportionality, because then members who were from smaller parties would not
be represented.
He said that we would need members of high
calibre who would go beyond party affiliation and would objectively look at the
matter at hand.
Kgoshi Mokoena referred to the provision of
paragraph 2 on page 7 of the minutes. He quoted the views supported by the
Chairperson. He drew the committee’s direction to paragraph 3, that the Act
referred to a standing committee and not an ad hoc committee. He said that the
principles were agreed upon by all parties and that the mandate was that all
parties would report at the meeting of 1 November 2006.
Mr. Watson reiterated that if the Chairperson
appointed the members of the committee then it would not be a standing
committee in terms of his understanding of the definition of a standing
committee.
The Chief Whip said that the ANC was in
agreement with the principles and the framework which was discussed.
Kgoshi Mokoena mentioned that in the Act, a
standing committee was defined as a committee established by Parliament.
The Secretary of the NCOP stated that the term
standing committee could create a lot of misunderstanding, and that it depended
on which system was being referred to.
She said that in the
In the South African system, a standing
committee is standing in the sense that it is a permanent committee.
Mr. Watson said that he wanted clarity on the
definition of standing per se and what the composition of a standing committee
was in Parliamentary terms.
The Chief Whip said that there was agreement
that not all parties represented in the Council will be represented in the
Committee.
Mr Hendricks said that the UIF wanted clarity on
whether an appeal procedure was provided for.
Mr Tlhagale said that the UCDP had no objection
to the formation of the standing committee.
Mr Sulliman said the ANC was in agreement and
that the sooner the committee was established the better.
Mr. Watson said that before there could be an
approval, the provisions relating to the committee needed to be finalised. He
insisted that the DA be given an option to serve in the committee.
Dr. van Heerden proposed that a small ad hoc
committee be appointed to prepare a draft and referred to Rule 245 of NCOP
Rules.
The Chief Whip suggested that the submissions
that the parties had made should be sent to the Subcommittee on Review of
Rules. He further proposed that by the next Rules committee meeting the issue
needed to be finalised.
The Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP proposed that
Kgoshi Mokoena’s subcommittee come up with a proposal.
Ms. Oliphant said that the very same proposal
that was discussed came from the same subcommittee. She said that there had been
an agreement that we need a committee of five. The committee would report back
to the House and the House would take a decision whether it was in favour of
the recommendations of the committee or not.
The Secretary to the NCOP advised that the
Subcommittee on Review of Rules should prepare a draft rule based on the
principles agreed upon.
Agreed:
·
that the subcommittee on Review of
Rules would prepare a draft rule based on the principles agreed upon.
6.2. Rule 236(2) and 237(1)
Kgoshi
Mokoena proposed that the formal proposal be made in the next Rules meeting.
Agreed:
- that in the next Rules meeting
the subcommittee will table a formal proposal.
6.3. Rule 17
The Secretary to the NCOP tabled the document.
Mr Watson stated that he had a problem with the
wording in Rule 17(1).
The Chief Whip said the Rules committee dealing
with the matter in the context of the NCOP and should understand it as such. He
also proposed that the committee notes Mr Watson’s objection.
Agreed:
§
that Mr Watsons’ objection be noted.
6.4 Amendment of Rule 10
The proposal regarding office bearer to act in
the absence of the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson was tabled, Option 2
(i.e. designate one of the House Chairpersons) was the preferred option.
Agreed:
§
that Option 2 be adopted.
6.5 Introduction of the Three – Day Rule
Ms Oliphant submitted the proposal and indicated
that it reflected on the experience that in the past, where some of the reports
were withdrawn at the last minute before a debate in the House. She motivated
that she believed that if the rules were amended it would give an opportunity
for the Presidium to go through the reports and then act accordingly.
Agreed:
·
that the proposal be adopted
6.6 Parking for MP’s at the airport
Mr Sulliman raised an issue that members at the
The Chief Whip proposed that the Chairperson
takes the issue up with the Secretary to Parliament and that feedback be given
by the next Rules Committee meeting or even before the end of the 2006
Parliamentary session.
Ms Terblanche said that there was a problem with
the ACSA cards. She said that they could not be used in other airports.
Kgoshi Mokoena gave notice that in the next
Rules meeting he would raise an issue that when members travel with their
children, children did not enjoy the same benefits as members do. He referred
to an incident where he was booked on a business class and his three-year-old
son was booked on economy.
7. CLOSURE
The Deputy
Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12:30 p.m.
_______________________
Hon. Mr. M J Mahlangu, MP
Chairperson
of the NCOP Rules Committee