Improvement of Service to Military Veterans: Public hearings
Defence
10 May 2007
Meeting Summary
A summary of this committee meeting is not yet available.
Meeting report
DEFENCE JOINT COMMITTEE
10 May 2007
IMPROVEMENT OF SERVICE TO MILITARY VETERANS: PUBLIC HEARINGS
Chairperson: Mr S
Montsitsi (ANC)
Documents handed out:
Didiza Productions
submission
World Veterans Foundation
powerpoint presentation
World Veterans
Foundation submission
MKMVA Gauteng
Written Submission
APLA Military Veterans
Submission
GetMed PowerPoint
presentation
Council of
Military Veterans Organisations written submission
Council of Military
Veterans Organisations of South Africa PowerPoint presentation
Military Veterans
Affairs Act
Audio Recording of the Meeting: Morning Session (Part1), Afternoon
Session (Part1
& Part2)
SUMMARY
The
Committee received a number of submissions from a range of stakeholders
including military veterans associations. Members interacted with the
submissions and the representatives from the Department of Defence were given
opportunity to react to them too.
Didiza Productions was a film unit set up specifically to assist veterans in
finding work in the film industry. It had undertaken extensive publicity and
encouraged veterans, particularly those with experience in explosives, which
was required for special effects, to register and re-train in the industry.
Thus far it had not achieved substantial success. Members queried whether the
company had aligned itself with other veterans’ organisations, and whether it
could prove substantial benefits to veterans.
The World Veteran Foundation explained the purpose and scope of the Foundation
and stated that it would encourage full representation by all the veterans'
organisations. The Advisory Board set up in South Africa had not achieved as
much as possible and urged that one of the most important aspects was well
managed health care.
The National office and provincial offices of Umkhonto we Sizwe Military
Veterans Association (MKMVA), the APLA Military Veterans Association gave
different presentations, but common themes were the concerns at the addition of
salaries and pensions, with harsh tax consequences, the age limit of 35 years
for qualifying for a Special Pension, which automatically disqualified a number
of young soldiers who were now suffering undue hardship, the fact that medical
aid benefits and entitlement to pension amounts were discriminatory, the slow
progress on matters of concern raised some time ago, the distinction in
pensions between former SA Defence Force and Non Statutory Force veterans and
questions of rank. It was clear that there was lack of unity and accord between
the numerous representative bodies of military veterans. Concern was expressed
about the non-functioning of the Special Corps, the lack of service - and, more
worryingly - interference by the Safety and Security Sector Training Authority
(SASSETA), and the inadequate opportunities for re-skilling.
The SA National Defence Force and Department of Defence, in answering some of
the questions and concerns, stressed that it too had recently informed the
Committee that there was a need to address the pension matters urgently. The
Department could only apply the legislation and it was clear that there were
difficulties. The calls made required a political decision and amendment of the
legislation. Clarity was given on the position in regard to special pensions,
the Non Statutory Force Pensions, and the war grants paid by Department of
Social Development to veterans from World War I and II and Korea.
Members noted that there was lack of unity between the bodies and queried the
steps in establishing the South African National Veterans Association. They
noted the call from the Department for political intervention and commented
that the veterans' efforts had laid the cornerstones for this democratic
institution.
GetMed made a submission in which it outlined the proposals for a tailored
medical aid scheme for veterans. Members queried whether the scheme would be
truly representative, whether it would benefit all veterans, to whom it had been presented, and
whether it was sustainable. The Department did not know enough about the scheme
to comment as there had not been a full presentation to the Advisory Board, and
certain documents had been missing from the letters. The Scheme was urged to
have further meetings and consultation.
The Council for Military Veterans Organisations spoke of the transformation
process, the need to identify vulnerable veterans and the need to run
developmental programmes. It argued also for improved medical support and
pensions. Members challenged some of the perceptions, and the role of the
former commandos was discussed. Again it was stressed that it was important for the term
‘veteran’ to be defined. Members felt that it was important for there to be
unity among all veterans so that some of them would not be excluded from
decisions that would affect them and so that all benefited from transformation.
MINUTES
Chairperson’s
opening remarks
The Chairperson
appreciated that most of the stakeholders who had seen the Committee’s call for
submissions had taken it upon themselves to respond so that they could be part
of the process and to share opinions and ideas on how the quality of life of
veterans could be improved.
Didiza
Productions Submission
Mr Ntandazo Gcingca,
Didiza Productions, stated that this production company, through making films
and through other entrepreneurial activities, aimed to train military veterans
as well as use their expertise in film productions. Although the venture had
been publicised often, the company had so far had very little success in
realising its vision.
Discussion
Ms M Matsemela (ANC)
asked whether the production company operated independently, whether it worked
together with the Military Affairs Advisory body, and whether the national
Veterans Organisation was aware of the production company.
Mr Gcingca said that everything he was implementing emanated from a speech
which the former Minister of Arts and Culture, Ms Brigitte Mabandla, had made
in 1996 in which she had emphasised the need for the transformation of the
industry. That had led to the setting up of the National Video and Film
Foundation in 1997. The black film makers, in order to “grow the cake”, set up
the Cape Film Commission. He emphasised that when any structures set up must be
controlled and managed, else they would not deliver and would fail.
Ms Matsemela
was curious as to whether the production company had international partners and
if so what kind of benefits they received. She also wanted to know how veterans
benefited from such.
Mr J Schippers (ANC)
thought the venture to capacitate veterans was a good one but wanted more
specifics as far as the financial benefits the veterans would enjoy. Many of
the veterans received very small pensions and thus he asked how the production
house would ensure that veterans would indeed benefit from the process.
Mr Gcingca responded
that the company was hoping that military veterans would be the ones to explore
the opportunities it provided. Once within the industry veterans would benefit
as workers. He was always concerned about how “he could improve the market
shares so everyone could benefit. Control and management was very important.
Mr L Diale (ANC) asked
how many veterans the company had already attracted.
Mr Gcingca had presented the idea to many stakeholders, including 90% of the
veterans and traveled to Johannesburg at his own expense to pitch the idea
there too. He emphasised that the idea was still a work in progress. The filming
season in Cape Town would start in the next five months but preparations had to
start now. The Cannes and Sithengi film festivals would also be held in a few
months time and most of the well-known and influential names within the industry
would be there.
Mr Gcingca informed the Committee that all military veteran structures had over
the last four years been informed of his plans. The consultation process was on
track. The proposal had been pitched to them on more than three occasions and
they were familiar with it. He believed that the project could take off and
create opportunities. The South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) and the
Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) were calling for
submissions for potential stations and this was an avenue he was eager to
pursue.
The Chairperson wondered whether the South African National Defence Force
(SANDF) delegation would be able to clarify whether the production house would
in fact be allowed to use military equipment and bases as indicated in the
presentation.
The Chairperson commented that this idea, if explored further, might be
successful for job creation provided the veterans were able to establish
themselves as an entity that would be able to enter into a joint venture with
the production company. In the absence of such an arrangement it would be
difficult to establish and monitor whether veterans were in fact benefiting. He
suggested that once they were better organised, veterans might be able to provide
the personnel, as active military personnel would not be able to be used in
productions.
Mr Gcingca was aware that the use of military bases and equipment would have to
be negotiated and felt that all stakeholders would have to engage to bring the
project off the ground. All the military veterans had specific skills that were
recorded on the military database. In his opinion most of the people involved
in special effects were former military officers who had knowledge of
explosives and were certified to work with them.
General Rinus van Rensburg, Chief of Corporate Staff, SANDF, confirmed that the
SANDF was not very eager to allow their facilities to be used for filming.
Military equipment could however be used once proper authorisation had been
received.
World
Veteran Foundation (WVF) Submission
Lt-Gen Niel Knobel, Chairperson, World Veteran Foundation, stated that the WVF
encouraged establishment of associations of federations for all veterans and
would encourage full representation from South Africa. Although the advisory
aboard had done a lot of work it did not achieve all the objectives, and from a
South African perspective, Lt-Gen Knobel would be keen to see momentum given to
some of the thoughts expressed in his presentation, which reflected what
veterans were saying. It was noted that at the General Assembly in 2003 the
State President had given encouragement, and it was clear that the conference
was taken seriously. Any resolution of the general assembly would be sent
through to the United Nations. The declaration had outlined the physical,
psychological and social needs of veterans. He urged that these must be taken
seriously. Well-managed health care was one of the most urgent needs of the
military veterans in South Africa and the Continent. It was the first item put
on the agenda when the Advisory Board was established and therefore it was to
be expected that it should have been dealt with by now. He suggested that the
GetMed Managed Health Care programme must be supported by the Committee.
Discussion
Ms P Daniels (ANC) asked whether Lt-Gen Knobel was suggesting that
veterans join in their own right, or whether bodies of veterans should join
WVF.
Lt-Gen Knobel said that the world body was adamant that if possible there
should be unity amongst veterans, so this was desirable also in South Africa. However, many countries had different associations that joined the world body
in their own right, and perhaps later began to unite with other bodies.
However, this had been an area of challenge, despite the full support of the
Minister and department. He was disappointed that unity had not yet been fully
achieved. Be that as it may, there were veterans who needed a place where they
could voice their concerns, and had raised them with the Advisory Board.
Ms Daniels asked if the thirty or so associations were from the Region, or from
South Africa.
Lt-Gen Knobel said that all the 30 associations called themselves
"national" associations. They also had regional representatives
within the national structures. There were other smaller groups, which may not
be national.
Ms Daniels asked who the Medical Scheme was, who ran it and what benefits it
could offer.
LT-Gen Knobel said that the Scheme would be making a presentation later and he
suggested this question stand over.
Ms W Matsemela (ANC) said that many international associations seemed to be
representing veterans. She wondered which "veterans" were included.
She noted that the veterans were faced with a number of difficulties in the
country.
Lt-Gen Knobel said that he did not represent or was affiliated to any specific
organisation in the Country, because of his position in the world bodies. He
noted that the WVF would encourage veterans as broadly defined to go the route
of formal registration so that there could be clarity on who and how many
veterans there were. An estimate had been made of around 600 000, but the
Advisory Board was trying to get a reliable number. It was a long and slow
process, made more difficult because of regional lack of contact with veterans.
He agreed that the problem was compounded when the organisations were
disorganised. Many were operating as small splinter groups yet were voicing the
same concerns. It was necessary for various groupings to sort themselves out
and make sure that their leadership was visible to go ahead with the new
Advisory Board. He noted that the WVF was not concerned at all with political
issues. It aimed to look after the physical, psychological and social needs of
veterans and their dependents, and victims.
Ms Matsemela asked if there had ever been advice given on setting up an
independent Ministry for Veterans.
Lt-Gen Knobel said that when the Military Veterans Affairs Act (MVA) was first
passed, there were some negotiations around the possibility of establishing an
independent Department, but this was not possible for logistical reasons at the
time. It was decided that the Act would be the responsibility of the Minister
of Defence, and a directorate would be established within the Department of
Defence (DoD) to deal with it. This was a costly and slow exercise. There was
now a new initiative looking at restructuring. WVF was in favour of this.
Ms Matsemela said that the Committee had recently discussed the budget vote for
the Department and she asked where specific budgetary allocation had been made
for this.
The Chairperson noted that officials from DoD would be commenting later on
these issues.
Umkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA) Submission
Mr Kebby Maphatsoe, Provincial Chairperson, MKMVA, stated that MKMVA
represented the ex combatants of Umkhonto We Sizwe. The submission he would be
making was essentially a shared submission representing the views of provincial
offices as well.
The thrust of the submission was that ex-combatants needed assistance as they
were socially and economically excluded from receiving full benefits and thus
remained vulnerable. Almost 50% were jobless, with no source of income, and
were exposed to drugs, drinking and lawlessness. MKMVA was concerned that
government had a moral, political and social obligation to extend pensions,
grants, allowances and subsidies to these ex-combatants. This Committee had the
power to intervene in the current situation, which was offering no assistance.
Poverty amongst ex-combatants was rife and while there was such poverty there
was not true freedom. The ex-combatants were victims from different conflicts.
Of particular concern was the application of the Special Pensions Act, as many
of the ex-combatants did not meet the 35-year age requirement as of 1996.
Having served from a young age, they were in a dire situation as they also had
no skills to complete in the country's economy. If necessary this point might
need to be taken to the Equality Court.
MKMVA pointed out that the problems were compounded by the fact that many
ex-combatants were physically, emotionally and mentally hurt. They had minimal
support from the State. MKMVA was also concerned with the other age limits set
out in the MVA Act. It specifically requested the deletion of Section 2,
amendment of Section 3(c) in relation to the ages, increase the number of board
members to 12 and implement the definition section (vii) properly. The buy-back
portions of the pensions must be abolished.
It also called for a Ministry for Military Veterans Affairs. DoD should take
responsibility for exhuming, repatriating and reburying and human remains.
MKMVA further recommended that the Non Statutory Forces pensions should not be
mixed with Special Pensions and veterans wanting a lump sum should be able to
access it. There was a need for review of the age limits for Special Pensions.
In addition, any special pensions should not be combined with the salary
earnings of members, as many were facing huge tax burdens.
DoD should facilitate an easy process through recognition of prior learning,
recognition of training, skills and qualification of veterans outside RA. MKMVA
also called for own insurance service providers for ex-combatants.
MKMVA recommended that GetMed should be appointed by Military Veterans
Associations to expedite the improvement of medical care and other relevant
benefits, and rehabilitate and run health facilities. Veterans' medical aid
contributions should be subsidised. SANDF should establish the South African
National Military Veterans' Association (SANMVA), a non racial and truly
representative body, to talk to parliament on behalf of all veterans. It
believed strongly that there should be a united foundation, with strict terms
of reference and strict guidelines, to administer all projects of military
veterans. This would include training needs.
Although parity of pensions was the main issue, MKMVA had other suggestions
too. Dormant military bases should be donated over to SANMVA so it could
implement housing developments on that land, and allow military veterans to
access the housing grants and build houses for themselves and their
beneficiaries. It would be useful to establish provincial structures and have a
launch of the national structure by November 2007.
North West MKMVA Submission
Mr Alfred Motsi, Chairperson, North West MKMVA, added to the comments just
made. MKMVA ex-combatants had not received any benefits such as housing
allowances. Funeral schemes were another area needing to be addressed as many
ex-combatants were dying as paupers, not having had the chance to contribute to
such schemes. Education was yet another area of concern. Although there was the
Safety and Security Sector Training Authority (SASSETA), the Board contained no
military veterans and was not in tune with the needs of the veterans. Many that
the SASSETA claimed to have trained were not former liberation movement
veterans at all. The process of re-training was particularly slow. North West
MKMVA recommended that the Department of Trade and Industry (dti) must be
involved also in the training. National Treasury needed to expedite payments.
He agreed that there were a number of sections of the legislation requiring
amendment. There also needed to be more attention given to SANDF Reserve forces
as there was insufficient representation of ex-combatants. Finally he pointed
out that implementation was needed as a matter of priority so as to ensure that
ex-combatants received their due now as many were in dire straits or dying
before being able to access facilities.
Western Cape MKMVA Submission
Mr Mbulelo Mabala, Chairperson, MKMVA, Western Cape, stressed that the
legislation dealing with veterans must be looked at in detail and re-drafted to
fit the prerequisites of the new associations.
He stated that the Special Pension amounted to R700, which was clearly
inadequate, being even less that the older persons' grant. It was referred to
as a "Special" Pension but he wondered what was so special about it.
He was concerned that those who had been in liberation armies had not retained
their rank on demobilisation and called for rankings to be restored. Although
much had been said about the SANDF being integrated, he did not agree that it
was fully integrated, because so many were not benefiting from training from
the Service Corps, and there was a backlog in people having been able to access
benefits.
The Deputy Secretary, Western Cape MKMVA noted concerns about his own
situation, when he had not received what he had been expecting.
Gauteng MKMVA Submission
Mr Agrippa Nchodo, Gauteng MKMVA, indicated that in highlighting the Special
Pensions difficulties, MKMVA would like to call upon the Committee to get some
assistance from Department of Finance. MKMVA believed that the preamble to the
MVA Act must be closely adhered to, and the obligations of government met. Some
other departments were looking to the challenges and perhaps there was a need
to look closely at the Act to check whether the interpretations currently being
used were correct. South Africa had the duty, capability and capacity to
preserve its history, and part of that related to comrades who died in exile and
in other countries, which was why there was a call for repatriation of remains.
He shared the concerns of North West that matters must proceed according to
time frames and a set programme.
APLA Military Veterans Association (AMVA) Submission
Gen M Fihla, Chairperson, APLA Military Veterans Association (AMVA), noted with
appreciation the support thus far received from the parliamentary committees on
defence. Despite this, due recognition and support was not being effected for
military veterans. Military veterans of the liberation struggle could not be
treated in the same way as the veterans of the former Defence Force, and the
attempts by the Act to do so resulted in discrimination against the veterans of
the liberation struggle.
The AMVA had held a national congress, and had managed to elect a legitimate
national leadership, despite having received very little support from relevant
government departments in its efforts. The lack of support was a factor that
further exacerbated the problems with splinter groups. Now that AMVA was stable
it would be focusing on rebuilding and revitalising its structures. The past
challenges in the legacy of disorganisation and lack of direction had extended
to the Advisory Board, the Steering Committee and SASSETA. The Advisory Board
had not been functioning for over a year. The Steering Committee had been
ineffective for a long time, as it was for years undermined by SASSETA. The
Service Corps had not delivered much.
The NSF and Special Pensions had made some headway in contributing to
improvement of the lives of military veterans. However, there was much that
still needed to be done. The major focus must be to ensure that all were
catered for in an inclusive manner, rather than the selective system currently
used. He concurred with previous speakers that there was a problem with the
under-35 category, who were not recognised as legitimate veterans. The issue of
age needed to be reviewed. Whilst the establishment of the pension schemes was
supported, they needed to be reviewed to determine their impact. Some areas of
concern had already been identified. The dependants of recipients of special
pensions would see a drop of around 50% in the monthly payouts on death of the
main recipient. Widows and dependants of the combatants who passed away during
the liberation struggle, or prior to 2006, were not fully catered for. The lump
sum amount was not sufficient.
It was recognised that AMVA needed to become more involved in its own
fund-raising but it would like to have assistance, and suggested that the
Departments and Ministers needed to be involved in discussions. It also
suggested that since MKMVA had stronger political ties with the ruling party,
it could use its influence effectively to help create opportunities for other
veterans' associations. A key point was that individual members of the various
associations should drive the economic projects, which assumed that they would
have received training and skills from SASSETA. This had simply not happened.
Skills were a vital area. In addition, the current process to access medical
facilities was far too slow and the pace of delivery must be accelerated.
Discussion
Mr J Phungula (ANC) asked whether MKMVA was calling for designated areas to be
set aside for ex-combatant housing projects, or merely that general land
situated in various places be made available for use.
Mr Phungula was concerned that medical facilities were not being adequately
accessed and asked what was the blockage at the moment. It was hoped that veterans
would be affiliated to the schemes and that they might receive the benefit of
accessing other social amenities to try to address their plight.
Mr Phungula asked, from the legislative perspective, whether the broader
reserve force would accommodate members of the reserve force who were not
currently employed in it. He noted the concern that there was not sufficient
demographic transformation and asked how members were to be integrated.
Mr Phungula noted that the Western Cape had not alluded to which specific
legislation was causing the problems.
Mr Nchodo noted that most of the problems cited arose under the Special
Pensions Act, and the 35-year old limit. He stressed that children of 14 or 15
were not questioned when they wanted to join the struggle but their
participation was not being properly recognised now the struggle had ended. He
had also made reference to another grant, but had been unable to get full
details of the Act under which it was administered. That grant was paid out by
Department of Social Development to veterans who had fought in World War I and
II and perhaps in other wars. He was concerned that there must be parity in
treatment. He stressed that there was a need to simplify and clarify all
issues, as the current problems were very demoralising for those who were not
being given proper choices.
Maj Gen Solomon Mollo, Chief, Human Resources Support, DoD noted that the
Department of Social Development paid out a "war grant" of R110 per
month to veterans who had solved in World Wars I and II.
Mr Phungula agreed that when speaking of "veterans" there was a need
to define who they were. Veterans were involved in a war at a particular time,
and must recognise that "the enemy" today would not necessarily be an
enemy tomorrow, outside of the war situation. Every combatant was in a sense a
victim of the war that was fought. There must therefore be every attempt now to
reach and stress unity.
Gen Fihla agreed that this lack of clear definition was a problem.
Ex-combatants were regrettably not given a clear definition but were called
military veterans, which gave rise to the main problem of non-inclusion of
under 35 year olds. This was the most important item to be looked at, as
without a proper definition that did not give rise to discrimination, it was
not possible to move ahead.
Gen Fihla commented in general that issues such as an independent Ministry
could be debated but in fact the issues raised tended to cloud the one major
issue, which was that the rules, as presently framed, were nullifying the
purpose for which the legislation was passed. All was based on the wrong
premise, because of the definitions. Issues must be properly addressed under
the MVA Act. An independent Ministry, without the necessary resources, would still
not be able to solve the problems. The key question was who was benefiting and
who was not.
Ms Matsemela felt it was important to consider what was in the Act. The MVA Act
said that all matters around military veterans should be holistically. She was
concerned that APLA and MKMVA did not seem to be united, and this had been
highlighted by Dr Knobel in his presentation, and by APLA noting that their own
internal structures were now in place. The Committee needed to try to help to
unite all structures.
Ms Matsemela noted that the Gauteng MKMVA written submissions had called for
abolition of the buy-back pension and noted that there was some doubt as to who
qualified for this. She felt that this provision gave power to those who had
money. Those without the necessary capital would not be able to buy back.
Again, she stressed that a holistic approach for military affairs must be
adopted.
Ms Daniels asked the Department for clarification on integration of various
bodies, in view of the mention made earlier of the proliferation of various
veterans' bodies.
Ms Daniels noted that it was clear that many things needed to be done, but also
clear that government had taken steps to achieve them. She would have liked a
clearer indication from the veterans as to what they were doing themselves and
on which issues precisely assistance was required.
A representative of Gauteng MKMVA stated that there were already institutions
that were ready and willing to discuss issues and appealed for the chance that
these submissions and suggestions be heard.
Ms Daniels noted that Gen Fihla had mentioned that the playing fields needed to
be levelled. She asked what he had meant by this.
Mr J Schippers (ANC) said that it seemed the process of integration had not
been managed well, and this was the treason why there was need for review. One
of the presenters had noted that most of the TBVC and SADF armies had received
packages, and it seemed that other groups were excluded from the integration
process, who still needed to be brought on board. The process was clearly not
managed well.
Mr Schippers asked if there was a central database for all forces, and how the
Committee could facilitate the process so that it could run more easily.
Mr Schippers wondered if APLA would support an independent Ministry for the
veterans, as suggested by MKMVA, which would centralise services.
Mr Schippers noted that the closing date for applications under the Special
Pensions Fund had been 31 December 2006. He asked if this was considered
sufficient time, and whether there were still many people who were unable to
apply for the pensions
Mr Maphatsoe said that MKMVA were not happy with the closing date, as also not
with the age discrimination. The matter had been further hampered by delays and
bureaucratic processes.
Mr Motsi noted that he personally had written to National Treasury in September
2006 asking that Treasury must come and give a presentation on the Special
Pensions in light of the uncertainty surrounding it. Nothing was heard until
2007, when it was indicated that the application date had passed.
In regard to the discrimination around Special Pensions, Mr Modziwe cited a
particular case, of which he was aware, where a foreign soldier serving in the
South African force had received a payout in excess of R360 000, whereas a
South African soldier serving in APLA, in the same rank, was entitled to only
R20 000.
A representative of MKMVA further noted that the Department of Health had some
facilities that could address part of the veterans' plight in health related
matters. Mafikeng base included superb health facilities and was not currently
being fully used. He called for access to this type of facility. He noted that
although the Act spoke of benefits, it was not specific on how these could be
accessed, and the inability of the under-35s was a major problem.
The Chairperson indicated that he would like a response to some questions from
DoD. He noted that there had been a call for a South African National Veterans
Association, yet that some of the various organisations needed to restructure
themselves to be able to participate on a provincial and national level. He
asked if it was possible for the Ministry to fund this type of initiative and
if it could give the Committee some idea of whether the suggestions were
implementable.
Mr Maphatsoe said the MKMVA fully supported SANVA, but the workshop recently
held had made it clear that not all organisations were at the same level, or
necessarily in agreement as to what they wanted. For instance, MKMVA believed
this must be a military structure. MKMVA was also concerned that its membership
of any national organisation would not in any way diminish its own ability
still to honour its own heritage and culture. SANVA would be a platform to address
military affairs in a converged manner, but should not subsume all the
interests of the organisations.
The Chairperson noted that a number of comments had been raised about the R20
000 lump sum payout and the payments per month, especially compared to some
other packages.
Mr Maphatsoe said that MKMVA felt very strongly about the discrimination, which
was why it had called for the abolition of the payout. It had also suggested to
currently serving members that they should be cautious about signing forfeiture
terms in relation to pensions.
The Chairperson asked for clarity on the ranking system and whether the ranks
could be carried over to civilian use.
Major General Mollo said that a number of issues and concerns raised today had
in fact already been isolated and raised by the Department itself. He stressed
that many of those issues could only be resolved at a political level and lay
outside the competency of the Department, which was to apply the legislation as
it stood.
The fundamental difficulties lay with the benefits under the Act. The Act did
allow for an inter cabinet committee, led by Defence, to be established and an
interdepartmental committee that could address certain issues. As yet these did
not exist. The Directorate of Military Veterans had therefore been established
within the DoD. That Directorate was meant to coordinate at policy level, but
it was clearly not well structured to carry out its work and address the
unforeseen challenges. The DoD acknowledged this challenge and was - tasked
with looking at the probability of establishing something similar to the model
of France, Canada, and Algeria, which was an agency model.
Maj Gen Mollo noted the comments on the dates in relation to the pensions. He
confirmed that the Special Pensions date had closed on 31 December and was not
to be extended. The date under the Non Statutory Force Pensions had been moved
to 31 March 2008, in view of the difficulties in tracing all those eligible.
He noted the concerns on the buy-back and the 50% reduction of monthly amounts
on death of the pensioner, as also the fact that those serving less than ten
years in the SANDF did not have their time served in the liberation forces
taken into account. Once again he pointed out that these provisions were
contained in the legislation and all the DoD could do was implement the
legislation. The Deputy Ministers of Defence and Finance had established a
structure to look at these issues, and DoD had called for political
intervention. The Act was meant to level the playing fields. The reality was
that some members might even get negative figures from the actuarial
calculations. It was clear that the Act had not achieved its intentions. He
stressed again that issues had been tabled and although it could not amend the
Act, DoD would try its utmost to try to get benefits for all members.
Maj Gen Mollo said that the Deputy Minister of Defence had led a delegation
meeting with a number of other role players and the issues of the amounts to be
pad out had been discussed.
Maj Gen Mollo stated that a conference was held in 2005, with the aim of trying
to establish a single Military Veterans' organisation. All had agreed that the
principle was acceptable, but the problem lay in the detail. Some called for a
federal organisation, some had problems concerning their assets, and so it was
resolved that members must consult their constituencies, and hold their own
conferences to elect and give mandates to their own leadership. The Azanian
Liberation Army (AZANLA) and APLA had done so, and MKMVA indicated that it
would do so this year.
In relation to the issues of health, The DoD had held meetings already with Old
Mutual and Sanlam, to investigate how military veterans could be helped.
However, insurance companies were business orientated and were essentially not
interested in social welfare. DoD would be meeting with MedScheme later in the
week. ABSA currently held around R768 million that had been set aside to assist
veterans, and their actuaries had also been asked to come up with possible
solutions.
Maj Gen Mollo said he could not speak to the remarks on integration of the
forces. However, in relation to ranks, he explained that an NSF member would
have been allocated a rank by his liberation force. If he then joined the
integrated SANDF, he had to appear before the Personnel Register Mobilisation
Unit, which comprised representatives of a British brokering team, and
representatives from all non statutory and statutory forces. The member would
have to do aptitude tests, and show his qualifications and competencies. He
would then be interviewed to assess whether his rank was correct. The Unit made
a recommendation to the Placement Board, which would then confirm the rank or
re-rank him. A member that had demobilised would not have gone through this
process and therefore would not have been assigned an SANDF force number, but a
certified personnel register number. Only when this had been integrated would
he be given a force number and rank. Ranks allocated by veterans' own
organisations lay beyond the DoD.
In reply to the Chairperson's question on the database, Maj Gen Mollo said that
this was a challenge but it was important to have such a database to service
members' benefits, and to facilitate creation of medical benefits. In compiling
the database, it was necessary to verify whether the person was a true veteran
because of the danger of fraudulent applications for benefits. There were
already allegations that many of those befitting were not true veterans.
Tracing members was a huge challenge. DoD was trying to get to grips with the
challenges and create a database that would issue a credible military veterans'
card for accessing benefits.
Maj Gen Mollo said that he could not answer to the question on whether there
was sufficient budget, as this was also a political issue.
In relation to the submissions on housing, Maj Gen Mollo said that there was
indeed unused land, and obsolete bases, and the Departments of Housing and Land
Affairs had been willing to participate in devising workable schemes. The
question was whether DoD would have the necessary funding to take this project
forward.
In relation to resources, the suggestion had been made by a Member that DoD
clearly did have resources, which the veterans did not have. DoD was working to
try to resolve the problems. Parliament must also assist. There was a crisis
and everyone must engage with each other. Treasury did not have a complete
solution and it was clear that political will must be exerted.
The Chairperson noted that there were pleas for medical health schemes and immediate
relief to be effected quickly. He cautioned that the veterans had been the
architects of democracy and it was not right that they should have to beg the
democratic institution they had set up for assistance. He believed the calls
for a conference must be supported, and that a constitutional structure of a
non racial SAMVA must be set up, and there should be a will by all
organisations to do so. The NSF Pension had become "the unattainable
carrot". Very few people could afford to buy in, and if they did, it was
made very difficult for them to afford it. There had to be will in the
institution and the committee and compassion in DoD to make sure that these
problems were sorted out. He pointed out that the Committee's recommendations
after the public hearing would be conveyed to the Ministers of Defence and
Finance and to the full house. It must be noted that the current high economic
growth should not be allowed to sideline the real needs.
GetMed submission
Mr Montie Lloyd
represented GetMed who through their medial aid plan, VetHealth, aimed to
become the heath administrator of choice for military veterans, their
dependents and victims of war. In addition to VetHealth, GetMed also
facilitated economic restitution through training and education as well as work
placements.
Discussion
Ms
Daniels thought it important that veterans’ associations informed veterans of
VetHealth in order to ensure that the scheme was representative of all
veterans.
Mr Lloyd responded that
the VetHealth model had not yet been addressed with the “foot soldiers” but had
been discussed with the various heads of the different veterans’ associations.
Mr M Booi (ANC) noted
that the DOD, who had experience to draw on, had earlier indicated that
sometimes medical schemes were interested in making money only. He needed to be
assured that the scheme would benefit the veterans. The well-being of veterans
had been on the table for the past 13 years. It had been extremely difficult to
create unity among veterans’ associations and that end had not yet been
achieved. He felt strongly that if all veterans were to benefit from the
VetHealth scheme and others, veterans would have to be organised in a clear
structure so that benefits could be awarded fairly.
Mr Lloyd explained that the idea for the model had come from the Military
Veterans Foundation (MVF) who had asked them to develop it. After presenting it
to the Advisory
Board on Military Veterans' Affairs (ABMVA) and having started interacting with the Department of
Defence (DOD), they realised that the foundation had no representation from the
military veterans’ environment. They then developed another model.
Mr Schippers asked whether there was an existing medical aid scheme catering
for veterans.
Mr Lloyd responded that GetMed administered four different health solutions
that were based on manage care and integrated solutions.
Mr Schippers
knew that medical aid schemes relied on member contributions and wondered what
sort of contributions veterans would be expected to make. He reminded the
delegation that many veterans had no source of income.
Mr Schippers
asked whether in the light of the large number of medical schemes that were
having financial problems, the scheme was sustainable, and ensured that members
would in fact benefit.
Mr Lloyd explained that an actuary was reviewing their models. They would
submit supporting documents containing full business plans to the Department.
The Chairperson sought clarity on what the presenter meant when he said that
the scheme was in partnership with military veterans.
Mr Lloyd responded that GetMed saw the partnership with the military veterans
as a new opportunity. He explained that GetMed aimed to provide shareholding
opportunity of up to 60% to the military veterans’ associations. Control of the
model should thus lie with the military veterans. They also saw partnership on
an employment level that provided the training and employment.
The
Chairperson wondered whether veterans’ dependents would also be able to benefit
from the scheme.
The Chairperson wondered if the Committee could take it that the philanthropic
motivation behind the VetHealth referred to a social responsibility programme.
Mr Lloyd responded that there were many people who were eager to partner with
them but they sought proper administration, regulations and membership.
VetHealth would seek out such partners.
Major General Solly Mollo raised a number of concerns relating to the
presentation. In the DOD’s experience of dealing with other such companies
things were often easier said than done. All of these organisations were
interested in the bottom-line, which was business. The medical scheme thus had
to make business sense. He agreed that the options members would be offered
were not clear enough. As far as he was concerned veterans should be able to
tell what the cheapest beneficial option was. He said that he did not know
enough about the scheme to comment on it but was concerned that there appeared
to be so many grey areas.
He wondered what the presenters meant when they spoke of funding that would be
received from the DOD. He had been advised that there had been no presentation
to the advisory board of the military veterans in 2006. A letter had been sent
to the DOD and was meant to have the proposal attached. The DOD had not
received the attachment and the letter was with the Minister at present. Once
they received the proposal it would be sent to the Surgeon General who dealt
with such military veterans’ proposals. The DOD did not know details of the
scheme and he could not see how without that information it had been approved.
Mr Lloyd was surprised that the document had not been attached to the proposal.
The response they had received from the ABMVA had made no mention of the
document not having been attached.
He explained
that the attachment contained the same information contained in the
presentation that they had just made. It showed a model of the plan they hoped
to roll out to the members. Some actuarial calculations of six options had been
made.
He explained that these models were not for “pure” medical schemes but were
controlled by a managed care process. The health status of individual members
would be identified and managed and included a model for access to doctors and
medicines. The model had been designed around the traditional military defence
way of service delivery. He did not think that one could find a better mode
than the one the DOD had used over the years.
In order to provide the managed care option they had to involve providers and
infrastructure from both the Government and the private sector. Key providers
had been involved and they would be able to get access to medicines at the same
price that the military paid.
Major General Mollo also wondered whether the VetHealth was part of the
Military Veterans’ Foundation.
Mr Lloyd answered that while the MVF introduced them to the model, they
withdrew in December 2006. He could give the reasons for the withdrawal after
the meeting.
Major General Mollo wondered where VetHealth envisaged member contributions
would be taken from.
Mr Lloyd explained that the fund spoke of contributory and non-contributory
members. The fund would not be funded solely by the DOD. They would follow the
guidelines laid down by the intent of the Act. Some members would be
contributory, while the DOD would look after the non-contributory (particularly
the vulnerable) members.
General van Rensburg recommend that the DOD’s staff first undertake detailed
staff action so that certain of the claims that had been made could be tested.
At that moment the DOD was not able to buy into the VetHealth proposal.
Ms Matsemela
wondered how regularly the ABMVA met and how well-informed it was about the
veterans’ needs. The presentation raised a number of issues. Veterans needed to
be sensitised and realise that they needed to unite to ensure that decisions
were not made on their behalf. She wondered what had really been done so far to
address the plight of the military veterans.
Mr Booi thought that a fundamental point was whether the DOD supported the
idea. The DOD had reservations and he thought that they should be allowed to
investigate the matter and then return to brief the Committee.
Brigadier
General E Mahlangu, Director: Military Veterans Affairs, DOD, explained that
the advisory board was a statutory body appointed by the Minister of Defence in
Consultation with the Chief of the SANDF. The board’s term of office had
expired in June 2006 and was then extended to November 2006. The board was
appointed from the nominations received from the associations, who had at that
stage not all had congresses. Once the congresses had been held and nominations
had been made the Minister would appoint the new board.
She
explained that the Board met once a month but could be called on to advise the
Minister at any time. There was also a Standing Committee on Military Veterans
as well as a forum of former military veterans from the seven forces that had
been established by Lt General Mtanzima. They discussed issues around business
ventures and other issues and met on a monthly basis. Veterans Holdings,
formerly the Veteran Foundation, was an entity formed by military veterans who
were now businessmen and were no longer within the SANDF.
As far as the
confusion around the VetHealth presentation was concerned, she pointed out that
while the presentation had been made to the Steering Committee it had not been
presented to the Advisory Board. The Steering Committee supported that the
presentation should go to other forums that included members of the veterans’
structures. She confirmed that the models had never been presented and that the
attachment had never been received.
The Chairperson
encouraged Mr Lloyd to keep in touch with the DOD so that issues around the
attachment could be resolved and the Committee brought up to date.
Council
for Military Veterans Organisations Submission
Col Colin Doyle
presented the submission which spoke to the transformation of the Council for
Military Veterans Organisations, the need to identify vulnerable military
veterans and to run developmental programmes. The submission argued for
improved medical support and pensions for military veterans.
Discussion
Mr Booi thanked Col
Doyle for his contribution but was concerned about the perception that
Government focused its attention on APLA and MK veterans only. This statement
was erroneous since Government had always tried to attend to the needs of all
veterans.
Ms Matsemela felt that the presentation created the impression that the CMVO
had met with the Minister of Defence. She was concerned about the apparent call
for an amendment to the Military Veteran’s Act.
Mr Ntuli felt that the Government had been very clear when it said that they
would close commandos and make sure that their members were accommodated in the
reserves, which would increase the number of reserves. He felt that the
non-statutory forces could also be accommodated within their respective reserve
forces. This might alleviate some of the problems, such as crime, facing the
country.
Mr Booi thought that Major Fihla had made a good point when he said that the
term ‘veteran’ should be clearly defined. There were 800 000 military veterans
on the DOD database. APLA, AZANLA and MK veterans all had their own histories
and he thought that should be taken into cognisance. He felt that these
veterans would probably not be included in the CMVO’s proposed definition of
‘military veteran’. These veterans did not register when they joined the
various liberation movements. He also wondered where coloured commandos who had
been previously been excluded would be accommodated and stressed that it was
important to pay attention to the different histories of the different forces.
Col Doyle said that the figures in the submission referred to the number of
people who served in the SANDF up to 1994. There were a great number of people
who could be deemed veterans.
Mr Schippers
wondered why APLA and MK were not listed within the CMVO, and asked whether an
APLA member would be allowed to join the Memorable Order of Tin Hats (MOTHS).
Mr Doyle said that some APLA and MK members had joined the MOTHS as well as the
South African legion.
Ms Matsomela
asked how many MK and APLA members were on the database.
Ms Daniels wondered whether South Africa was ready to have a unitary national
veterans association when there were still so many outstanding issues within
the individual ones.
Mr Diale
thought it important to bear in mind that were many people who would claim that
they were military veterans. He spoke from experience and felt that
unemployment and poverty made people do anything just to have food to eat. He
agreed that it was important for the term ‘veteran’ to be defined.
Major General Mollo agreed with Ms Daniels that the fundamental issue was
whether South Africa was ready for a unified veterans’ association. To his
understanding the CMVO presentation was an attempt to unpack the legislation
and to then make a subjective interpretation of what it said.
The submission declared the transformation of the CMVO to the South African
Military Veterans’ Federation. One of the fundamental differences at the 2003
workshop had been whether such a structure would be unitary or a federation.
The submission suggested that a consensus had been arrived at. It was decided
that the different groupings would consult their members and then have a
congress so that they could reach an agreement.
He also wondered why the document made no reference to black ex-servicemen.
These veterans felt that they were disadvantaged because they had fought for
the country but were not taken care of.
Major General Mollo said that Parliament had pronounced itself on the closure
of the commandos. The rejuvenation process that was taking place in the DOD was
concurrent with the closure of the commandos. The DOD had entered into
discussions with the South African Police Service to see whether the veterans
from the commandos could be used to beef up the police in an attempt to deal
with the escalating crime. The DOD was still in negotiation and the assumption
was ill founded.
The document was also not sensitive to the fact that there were members from
the liberation movements who had not been included. He felt that the document
was one-sided and did not do much to bring unity and was thus very difficult to
comment on. Some of the comments made in the document were the very same things
that stood in the way of creating the unified association.
He commented that it was not true that the SASSETA catered to the needs of APLA and
MK veterans. The CMVO was represented by Lieutenant Porter who was a Project
Standing Committee member.
Mr Doyle explained that their perception was that the training was not open to
all sectors but limited to APLA and MK.
Mr Ntuli felt that the transformation that had so far taken place at the
reserve force level was not reflective of the democracy. He felt that the CMVO
could be of assistance on this regard. He said that it was important to take
away the suspicions, and this would have to be worked on by the leaders.
Mr Ntuli said that shutting down the commandos would strengthen the reserve
force. Non-statutory members should be invited to join the reserves so that
they could become more reflective. Organisations should reach out to each other
so that post World War II military veterans were not treated as badly as South Africa had treated the black veterans who gad fought in World War II.
Mr Doyle said that SAPS had absorbed few of the commandos and that the current
reserve force units had absorbed a relatively small percentage. There were thus
quite a number of veterans from the commandos that could be deemed vulnerable.
He thought the fact that all the organisations and the SANDF and DOD had met to
debate the issues was good because it had broadened his understanding of
certain of the issues at stake.
The
Chairperson said that many submissions argued for amendments to the
legislation. He drew members’ attention to the provisions related to
definitions particularly Section 3(c) of the Military Veterans Affairs Act
(1999). He supposed that many of the veterans who had made submissions that day
would not necessarily be included in this definition. All submissions would
have to be taken into account when the Committee deliberated on the definition
of military veteran.
He thanked all present for their contributions and participation and adjourned
the meeting until the following day when the Committee would receive two more
submissions.
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents
Present
- We don't have attendance info for this committee meeting
Download as PDF
You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.
See detailed instructions for your browser here.