Civil Union Bill: briefing by Department of Home Affairs
NCOP Health and Social Services
21 November 2006
Meeting Summary
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Meeting report
SOCIAL SERVICES SELECT COMMITTEE
21 November 2006
CIVIL UNION BILL: BRIEFING BY DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS
Chairperson: Ms J Masilo (ANC)[North West]
Documents handed out:
Department of Home Affairs presentation on Civil
Union Bill
Civil Union Bill
[B26B-2006]
SUMMARY
The Committee was briefed on the Civil Union Bill. The purpose of the Bill
was to provide for the solemnisation and registration of civil unions by way of
either a marriage or civil partnership and to provide for the legal
consequences thereof.
Responding to a question why the Department had introduced the Bill, the
Department said that several studies were conducted in order to see how to
address issues raised in the Constitutional Court judgment. The Civil Union
Bill was the most suitable response the judgment. Legally there was no
difference between a civil union and a marriage. The Bill would simply allow
parties to choose whether to call their union a marriage. The legal
consequences would be the same.
Questions raised by the Committee included the following:
- Why the Department was having a separate legislation called the Civil Union
Bill. What was wrong with amending the Marriages Act? There was also the
Recognition of Customary Marriages Act. At what time would the Department put
all legislation dealing with marriages together?
- How civil unions could be expected to subsist if they would not be able to
procreate. Would the Bill not allow a situation wherein poor people would be
taken advantage of in that they would be forced to give their children to
people who could take them and raise them as their children?
- Whether a person married in terms of religious laws would be able to be part
of a civil union.
- Whether the Bill complied with the Constitutional Court judgment
- How the Department had arrived at the conclusion that people might want to
stay together, prefer to have all consequences of marriage apply to the but not
want to call themselves married couples.
MINUTES
Ms
Jayshree Naidoo, Adv. Y van Aswegen and Mr T Simelametja (all from the Legal
Services unit), represented the Department.
The Chairperson welcomed everybody to the meeting. She said that the
Constitutional Court had made a ruling in December 2005 and the ruling was
presented to a Cabinet Committee in 15 August 2006. It approved it on 23 August
2006 and the Department complied with all rules on 1 September 2006. A presentation
was made to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on 6 September 2006. Public
hearings were conducted from 20 September to 13 October. The Portfolio
Committee voted on the Bill on 10 November and the Second Reading of the Bill
took place on 14 November. The Bill was referred to the Select Committee on
Social Services on 15 November. There would be public hearings on the 23 and 24
November where written and oral submissions would be expected. The public
hearings were advertised in newspapers.
Ms van Aswegen made the presentation. (See document attached). She briefed
the Committee on the Bill clause by clause. The purpose of the Bill was to
provide for the solemnisation and registration of civil unions by way of either
a marriage or civil partnership and to provide for the legal consequences
thereof.
Discussion
Ms F Mazibuko (ANC)[Gauteng] asked why the Department was having a
separate legislation called The Civil Union Bill. What was wrong with amending
the Marriages Act? There was also the Recognition of Customary Marriages Act.
At what time would the Department put all legislation dealing with marriages
together? Clause 6 provided that a marriage officer could object to solemnise a
civil union on grounds of conscience, religion and belief. At what stage could
the officer register his or her objection and to whom should such an objection
be registered? Clause 7 provided that the parties to the civil union should
produce identity documents before the union could be solemnised. She asked if
the parties had to be present when the documents were present.
Ms Naidoo replied that several studies were conducted in order to see how to
address issues raised in the judgement. The most suitable was the Civil Union
Bill because it was most suitable to respond to the judgement. A person could
object to solemnise sex same union at the time of appointment as a marriage
officer. Such an objection should be lodged with the Minister in writing.
Parties would have to be present when their identity documents were produced.
Mr Simelametja replied that people who had applied to be registered as marriage
officers in terms of this Bill would not be allowed to object to solemnising
civil unions. Only a marriage officer, other than the one referred to in clause
5 could object.
Mr J Tlhagale (UCDP)[North West] said that one fundamental requirement in
marriages was that a marriage should be able to procreate. The country had seen
family disintegrating because they had not produced children. He asked how the
union could be expected to subsist if they would not be able to procreate.
Would the Bill not allow a situation wherein poor people would be taken
advantage of in that they would be forced to give their children to people who
could take them and raise them as their children?
Mr N Hendricks [Western Cape] said that clause 8 referred to people who were
already married in terms of the Recognition of Customary Marriages. There were
religious marriages that were not recognised by State and many people,
especially in the Muslim communities, were married in terms of religious laws.
He asked if a person married in terms of religious laws would be able to be
part of a civil union. How would the Bill deal with objections by a divorced
spouse who would now see a former partner who had been granted custody of
children born under the marriage just about to be a party to a civil union?
Would they have to go through court procedures? He also asked what two
competent witnesses meant.
Ms Naidoo replied that parties to legally recognised marriages could not enter
to a civil union while the other marriage still subsisted. People who were
parties to a marriage in terms of the Recognition of Customary Marriages Act
could not be parties to a civil union at the same time. The overhauling of religious
marriages was also a priority for the Department but a study first had to be
conducted to analyse the needs of all denominations.
Ms van Aswegen replied that children were dealt with in the Children’s Act but
the Act was not yet in operation. The Act contained a section that dealt with
children in same sex marriages. The adoption of children was already legal.
Mr B Tolo (ANC)[Mpumalanga] said that the Committee should not start looking at
the merits of the Bill. The purpose of today's meeting was just to take a
briefing from the Department. It would have opportunity to engage on the finer
details at a later stage. He asked the State Law Advisors if the Bill complied
with the Constitutional Court judgement. Clause 13 was about the legal consequences
of a civil union and the consequences would be similar to those that applied to
people married in terms of the Marriages Act. He asked why the Department did
not simply use same terminology if the consequences were the same.
The Chairperson agreed that the agenda of the meeting was a briefing by the
Department. There would be deliberations at a later stage.
Mr M Sulliman (ANC)[Northern Cape] asked for clarification on the financial
implications for the State. The Bill provided that there would be financial
implications with regard to the development of new registration systems and
forms pertaining to civil unions. Was there costing done on the Bill? The
Department was supposed to cost the Bill if it would have financial
implications. Would the Committee be in a position to finalise the Bill if no
costing had been done?
Ms Naidoo replied that the costs were limited to printing forms and training.
The costs could be accommodated in the departmental budget. There were be no
major systems changes and systems had already been amended to accommodate civil
unions. The costing of the Bill was dealt with in terms of the current budget.
Mr Sulliman said that the question was whether on not the Bill had been costed.
Ms Naidoo replied that it had been costed.
Ms J Vilakazi (IFP)[KwaZulu-Natal] said that some of the comments by Mr Tolo
were infringing the freedom of speech. Members should be allowed to speak
freely for the majority of voters. The preamble to the Bill provided that
"the family law dispensation as it existed after the commencement of the
Constitution did not provide for same-sex couples to enjoy the status and
benefits couples with responsibilities that a marriage accords to opposite-sex
couples". Corruption was so high in the country. Would the Bill not
further promote corruption? Public hearings were conducted in all provinces and
none of the provinces had agreed with the Bill. The Bill was being fast tracked
without any amendments to the benefits of the majority of the people.
Mr T Setona (ANC)[Free State] said that the Committee might have to review some
of the practices or conventions of dealing with Bills so that Members could not
be seen as suppressing debate and discussion on the Bill. Nobody can have the
confidence to say that they were representing the masses more than the African
National Congress. The Committee should enter into discussion acknowledging and
recognising the polarisation that existed in the society. The reality was that
the problem arose from the supreme law which was the Constitution. There were
two options on how to deal with the present issue. The first was for the State
to undermine the Constitution and submit to popular views. What would be the
implications of undermining the Constitution and what kind of precedent would
such a move set? Nobody could claim to be more cultural than the next person.
All people had evolved through different cultural formations. There was a need
for a more robust debate on the issue so that some of the views could not be
seen as sacrosanct. He asked what was the rationale for the Department to
define civil union and civil union partner but not a civil union partnership.
Could the Department distinguish between a marriage and a civil partnership in
the context of the Bill? The Committee should not be blinded into passing the
Bill while some issues remained unclear. It was important to have a clear
understanding of the consequences of passing the Bill.
Ms Naidoo replied legally there was no difference between a civil union and a
marriage. The Bill would simply allow parties to choose whether to call their
union a marriage. The legal consequences would be the same.
Ms S Madlala-Magubane (ANC)[Gauteng) asked the Department to clarify the
meaning of "two competent witnesses" referred to in clause 10. A
person could drag anyone from the street to act as witness. Clause 14 provided
for a penalty for solemnising a civil union without authorisation. She asked
who did the authorisation. The clause also penalised the making of any false
statement or representation knowing it to be false. She asked how the
Department would find out if the representations or statements were false.
Ms Naidoo replied that false representations would be picked up by the system.
For example, the system would be able to indicate if a party to a civil union
was already a party to a marriage. Witness had to be competent in terms of the
common law. They should be majors and be able to understand the nature of the
act to which they were consenting.
Mr Mazibuko asked the Department to clarify the meaning of clause 14(3).
Mr Simelametja replied that the clause meant that a person who had done
anything contrary to the legislation knowing that it should not be done would
be guilty of an offence.
Mr Sulliman said that clause 5(1) provided that "any religious
denomination or organisation may apply in writing to the Minister to be
designated as a religious organisation that may solemnise marriages in terms of
this Act". He asked what was an organisation for the purposes of the clause.
Ms Naidoo replied that a denomination was almost like religious sect as opposed
to a small organisation.
The Chairperson asked for more clarification on clause 3.
Mr Simelametja replied that the Bill would not apply to any other kind of
relationship other than a civil union as defined in terms of the Bill.
Ms H Lamoela (DA)[Western Cape] asked how the Bill would affect the rights of
children. She cited an example of a mother who was divorced and wanted to get
into a civil partnership. She also asked the State really had a duty to give
recognition to same sex relationship.
Ms Mazibuko asked if the issue of cohabitation was also covered. How will
anti-nuptial contracts have a bearing on civil union?
Ms Naidoo replied that co-habitation was not covered in the Bill. It would
cover anti-nuptial contracts because it had a bearing on all the legal
consequences of a marriage in terms of the Marriages Act.
Ms Setona asked how the Department had arrived at the conclusion that
people might want to stay together, prefer to have all consequences of marriage
apply to the but no want to call themselves married couples. There were many
people who were staying together but were not married.
Ms Vilakazi agreed with Ms Mazibuko and Mr Setona. People could cohabitate
until death. Why were such people not included in the Bill? They were also
partners. The Bill was being fast tracked with many loopholes.
Ms Naidoo replied that the Bill contained a clause that dealt with domestic
partnership when it was presented to Cabinet. The clause had since been deleted
following the consultation process that the Portfolio Committee had conducted.
A new Bill to deal with cohabitation would be introduced at a later stage.
Mr Tolo agreed that there were people who were cohabiting. The Bill did not
deal with this. The Department initially wanted to deal with this issue but
realised that the Bill was going to be very big. Dealing with the issue of
cohabiting in the Bill would not have responded to the Constitutional judgement.
It was important to protect people involved in such relationship. There was a
need to have a Bill to address such issue at a later stage.
Ms Mazibuko raised a point of order. She said that Members of the Committee
were posing questions to the Department. They could not be expected to deal
with legislation that they did not understand. Mr Tolo could not speak for the
Department because he was not a spokesperson for the department. He should
allow the Department to respond to questions posed. Members of the Committee
would be expected to go out and respond to questions from the public on the
Bill. How will they answer questions on something that they did not understand?
The Chairperson said that the Committee would debate on 27 November 2006.
Mr Tolo asked the Chairperson to make a ruling on whether to debate on the Bill
today. There were procedures and conventions on how to deal with the Bill. The
procedure was that the Committee should take the briefing from the Department
and deliberate at a later stage. He noted that that some members were insisting
on a debate. He appealed to members not to play to the gallery.
The Chairperson said that the programme indicated that the purpose of the
meeting was to take a briefing and allow for clarity seeking questions. The
Committee would deliberate on Monday next week.
Mr Setona said that some of the issues were ideological and positional. The
Department could be allowed to take the Committee through the Bill clause by
clause. The Committee could then have preliminary discussion on the substance
of the Bill. The African National Congress was not afraid of the debate but
members should distinguish between debate amongst themselves and debate with
the Department. Without undermining the delegation, he said that a legal
officer could not respond to some of the questions. He had thought that at
least the Deputy Director General would attend the meeting.
Ms Vilakazi supported Mr Setona.
The Chairperson said that the Committee had not received an apology from the head
of the Department. It seemed that the Department was not ready to respond to
the questions raised.
Mr Hendricks used an a example of a divorced wife who had been granted custody
of the children. The wife might want to enter into a civil union with another
woman. The father of the children might object to the marriage on religious
grounds and the Bill made no provision for the father to object.
Mr Setona said that Mr Hendricks' objection was based on religion. He asked
what would happen if the woman was getting married to a man who held a belief
or religion that was totally different to the one held by her former husband.
Ms Vilakazi asked if the Department had taken the concerns of the provinces
into account.
Ms Naidoo replied that the inputs from public hearings were taken into
consideration by the Portfolio Committee. The removal of domestic partnerships
was as a result of submissions during the hearings.
Mr H Smuts (State Law Advisor) said that the Chief State Law Advisor had
indicated that the Bill addressed the issues raised in the judgement.
Mr J de Lange (Department of Justice) said that the Committee should not loose
track of the fact that it had a Constitutional Court judgement to deal with.
The introduced Bill had a long Chapter on domestic partnerships but such
partnerships were not covered by judgement. There were two judgements and one
dealt civil domestic partnerships and the other with same sex unions. The
problem was that the same sex partnership judgement had a deadline. The National
Assembly had decided to focus on same sex partnerships. The State had a duty to
recognise same sex unions. The Constitutional Court had amended the common law.
Clause 13 amended the definition of marriage in the common law.
One of the most important amendments made to the Bill was that the National
Assembly had made the Bill applicable to heterosexual partners as well. The end
product was an extension of the whole marriage regime. It would allow people to
enter into marriages in terms of the Marriages Act or into civil union or
marriages in terms of the Bill. The Marriages Act had been left intact in order
to balance the interests of religious communities. The Bill would create a new
regime that was completely equal to Marriages Act regime.
Mr de Lange said that the Bill did not deal with children. The adoption of
children partly was dealt with in terms of common law. A point had been raised
about a couple divorcing and one of the parties getting involved in a same sex
union. Custody of children was a different matter altogether. The court would
normally make an order taking into account all surrounding circumstances. It
could vary the order should circumstances change. Civil partnership would have
similar consequences as marriages. The Marriages Act did not define a marriage.
Ms Mazibuko was worried that it seemed that the Committee was doing something
just to satisfy the Constitutional Court ruling. The Committee should get an
extrapolation of the ruling so that it could check the issues properly.
The Chairperson said that the Committee should be briefed on the court ruling.
Mr de Lange said that his Department would provide to the Committee with the
court judgement. It should be clear that the Bill did not affect common law and
customary marriages. It only affected them by saying that people who were
parties to such marriages could not be party to a civil union or marriage in
terms of the Bill whilst that other marriage was still subsisting. The
rationale for the legislation was to provide for an opportunity for people who
could marry to do so and not to affect anything else.
Mr Setona said that people could read the judgement and come up with different
interpretations and perspectives. He said that he had the privilege of sitting
with three lawyers from his party. The meeting was scheduled for two hours but
lasted for four hours. What was important was for Parliament to pass the Bill
by 1 December in order to satisfy the court judgement. The court did not
prescribe what would be considered to be constitutional. It only provided that
there was a constitutional obligation to recognise same sex marriages.
Ms A Qikani (ANC)[Eastern Cape] said that a marriage was between a man and a
woman. The Bill would allow people of the same sex to get married. She asked
who would inform the public that a person who was a man or woman had become a
woman or man.
Mr Setona said that the Bill was not about sex change. He was not sure if there
would be a Bill to one deal with such an issue.
Ms Qikani asked who would pay lobola because the parties would be of the same
sex.
Mr Tolo said that it would be very unfair to expect the Department to respond
to the question raised by Ms Qikani. South Africa knew what discrimination
could cause. He appealed to members who wanted the country to continue to
discriminate against other people to clearly indicate that they wanted to do
so. People had fought for the country to be in the current position and people
of different sexual orientation had taken part in the fight. There was a
tendency for people to impose their own morals on other people and this was
very wrong. The Bill would not force anyone to marry a person of the same sex.
People who wanted to marry people of the same sex should be allowed to do so.
The Constitution provided that there should be no discrimination on sexual
orientation. One could not go back and change the Constitution because of this
issue because every little disagreement would mean that the Constitution should
be amended. There was the danger that people would say that the African
National Congress did not respect the Constitution. The issue under discussion
was the same as the choice on termination of pregnancy.
Ms Lamoela agreed that SA was a constitutional State but reminded the Committee
how it had discriminated in the Older Persons Bill when it came to the ages of
60 and 65. It was agreed that the discrimination was fair. There might be a
need to review that discrimination in light of the current discussion.
Ms Vilakazi said that all Members knew about the Constitution and respected it.
There was no need to emphasis it on daily basis. People should know who was
going to be a Mr and a Mrs before the parties walked down the aisle.
Mr Setona said that one would be naïve to say that the questions that were
being raised should not be raised. The questions were legitimate but not
necessarily the direction that the country should take. He said that his nine
years daughter had asked him questions about the Bill. He could not convince
her to share his understanding or perspective on the Constitution. The question
was what came first between the Constitution and the law. One might ask why not
simply change the Constitution if the problem was in the Constitution.
Political parties had negotiated the Constitution unlike the Constitutions of
other countries that were products of blood. There was a call for cease-fire so
that there could be negotiation. People had pride in the Constitution.
He said that some people had said that the African National Congress should not
get the majority in Parliament because it would use its position to undermine
the minorities. It had been said that it would amend the Bill of Rights and the
property clause in particular. The party had never dreamt of changing the Bill of
Rights. The Bill was not premised on some academic research in universities. It
was about reality and there were gay and lesbian people all over the country.
It was true that gays and lesbians were in the minority but the country had
protected other minorities. The Constitution Court had made a ruling that there
should be a legal framework to recognise same sex marriages. It was not
important to define who would become a man or a woman after the union. There
was no way that the country was going to submit to a particular religion at the
expense of the other. The Bill was a test to the African National Congress.
There were parties who had always said that the government should respect the
courts but such parties were today telling their members to vote by conscience.
No political party would tell its member to vote by conscience if the African
National Congress was to say that it was going to amend the property clause.
Mr Hendricks raised a point of order. He felt that Mr Setona's points were
beside the issue under discussion. Mr Setona was now debating on the merits of
the Bill.
Mr Setona said that the Committee had agreed that there could be a debate on
the merits of the Bill. The Bill was a test to the African National congress
and the party had passed it. It would go back to its constituencies and explain
all issues so that they could understand the obligations. People should not
impose their religious or religious values on other people. The two-third
majority votes that the African National Congress received during the elections
included votes by gay and lesbian people.
The Chairperson said that she had explained the Bill to born again christians
in a church in Mabopane and they understood it.
Mr Hendricks said that members should understand that no man-made Constitution
could be cast on stone. One was dealing with natural laws and right and wrong.
Some members of the Committee had argued that people should not impose their
moral values on others but the truth was that people build on moral values. The
chickens were coming back to roost in the country because of lack of moral
values. It was problematic to say that the country should do wrong things
simply because it was a secular State.
Mr Tolo asked what was natural law. He encouraged people to read Engels on the
origin of a family. Families started at a certain time in history. The African
National Congress was aware that people were opposed to the Bill but the party
had an obligation to lead them and not to tail them.
Mr Sulliman said that people should not lose sight of the fact that the
government had been taken to court and a ruling was made. All Members
understood the justice system. Parliament had created Constitutional Court and
it should uphold its decisions. Any parties opposed to the judgement should
indicate their opposition. The Bill came as a direct result of the judgement.
The Chairperson invited the Committee to take the Committee through the Bill
clause by clause.
Mr Tolo said that the agenda of the meeting was a briefing by the Department.
He proposed that clause by clause deliberations should take place on Monday.
The Chairperson agreed.
The meeting was adjourned.
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