Terms of Reference to Chapter Nine and Associated Institutions and Outline of the Review Process
Review of State Institutions Supporting Constitutional Democracy
20 October 2006
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AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE REVIEW OF STATE
INSTITUTIONS SUPPORTING CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY
20 October 2006
TERMS OF REFERENCE TO CHAPTER NINE AND ASSOCIATED INSTITUTIONS AND OUTLINE OF
THE REVIEW PROCESS
Chairperson: Prof K Asmal (ANC)
Documents handed out:
Opening statement
by Professor Kadar Asmal
Terms of reference
SUMMARY
The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, the Office of
the Auditor General, the Office of the Public Protector, the South African
Human Rights Commission, the Independent Electoral Commission, the Commission
for Gender Equality, the Public Service Commission the Cultural, Religious and
Linguistic Rights Commission, the Financial and Fiscal Commission and the
National Youth Commission were represented at the second meeting of the
Committee. The Chairperson by way of introduction sketched the background to
the upcoming review of these Chapter 9 institutions and then proceeded to
introduce the terms of reference for the process. Institutions raised concerns
around amongst others departments as well as Parliament’s failure to implement
the recommendations they made. The Democratic Alliance was resolute that the
review should also evaluate the appropriateness of institutions submitting
budgets to their line ministries rather than directly to National Treasury. The
Committee intended to have completed their final report by no later than 30
June 2007.
MINUTES
Opening remarks
The Chairperson in his opening statement (see document) remarked on the
rationale that informed the decision to include the Chapter 9 institutions in
the Constitution rather than in normal legislation. He explained why it was
thought that a review of these institutions should be made, why Parliament
would conduct the review and what the fundamental issues of concern were. He
commented that the significance of Chapter 9 institutions was not always clear
during times of democratic order and normalcy. During times of difficulty, when
danger loomed and ‘’fear stalks the land’’, such countervailing institutions
were of importance in the protection, not of democracy but of ordinary lives.
He said that reviews were not necessarily an indication of crisis; they could
also be a sign of self-confidence. Public comments were of utmost importance as
a measure of the efficiency and relevance of these institutions. The
Committee’s review would be comprehensive with each member being assigned two
institutions to research and consider how to structure and review.
Discussion of the Terms of Reference
The Chairperson took members and representatives from the Chapter nine
institutions through the terms of reference that would govern the activities of
the Committee.
The Chairperson said that in most cases Parliament instituted an ad hoc
committee to appoint commissions and their secretariats. He had been surprised
to learn that in the case of the Commission for Gender Equality (CGE) the
Department of Justice and Constitutional Development performed this task. This
illustrated that there was no coherence in appointment and employment
arrangements. This variance extended to the manner in which posts were
advertised. He was also astounded that in some cases Parliament did not know
what commissioners’ and executives’ salaries were.
Mr Shauket Fakie (Auditor
General) wondered whether the Committee would also consider the staff
establishment of the institutions in particular its adequacy and
appropriateness.
The Chairperson said that such a review would be left to the internal
arrangements of the institutions. Though this was Parliament’s task everyone
would agree that it did not have the capacity to undertake such an enormous
task. He added that accountability and oversight was a real problem and the
Committee would focus its review in terms of appointments on commissioners and
secretariats.
The Chairperson said that it was important that the Committee consider
what kinds of systems were in place to manage the tensions between
Commissioners (appointed by Parliament) and the executive of the institutions.
Mr Jody Kollapen (Chairperson: SAHRC) assumed that in
reviewing the governance arrangements of the institutions there would also be a
comprehensive review of their legal frameworks which in some cases contained
certain inconsistencies and contradictions.
Mr Mongezi Guma (CRL
Rights Commission: Chairperson) noted that what was missing from the review was
an assessment of the nature of the relationship between institutions and their
“sponsoring departments” which in many cases encumbered the work of the
institution. He said it was necessary to establish who was responsible for
determining that relationship.
The Chairperson said that this concern was covered by paragraph 2(d) and said
that th Committee would
ensure that the matter was addressed.
Prof S Sangweni (Chairperson:
PSC)) pointed out that when considering Parliament’s oversight role and the
independence of the institutions the Committee should also carefully consider
to what extent recommendations made by the institutions were implemented. He
said that there was usually a disjuncture between the recommendations
institutions made and whether they were implemented. He suggested that this
disjuncture might be due to the fact that they did not have sufficient clout.
The Chairperson explained that in most cases the institutions’ main function
was to make recommendations and agreed that the Committee would have to
consider the quality of responses to recommendations. The Committee would also
carefully investigate what became of the reports the various institutions
submitted to Parliament as well as to consider the responses ministers made to
such reports and recommendations.
Adv Tseliso Thipanyane
(Chief Executive Officer: SAHRC) felt that it was quite important to carefully
consider the funding models of the institutions. He hoped that the Committee
would also look at how Parliament funded these institutions. The SAHRC had to
be funded by Parliament, yet Parliament has no capacity to do so. The Committee
should also consider the role Parliament played in this regard.
The Chairperson assured him that members would look at the whole complex manner
in which all the institutions were funded as well as the funding processes that
were adhered to. While he was minister he had been amazed at the requests for
increases in the salaries of commissioners and chief executives that had been
made directly to the Cabinet. Currently funding came from departments. Ideally
the institutions and National Treasury should agree upon the funding.
Ms Joyce Piloso-Seroke (Chairperson: CGE) requested
the Committee to also consider the funding that each of the institutions
received. The discrepancies in this area remained a problem.
The Chairperson agreed that there were enormous discrepancies. There was no
systematic evaluation of funding; the evaluation differed from one institution
to the next. In total the State spent about R3,8
billion on these institutions. The office of the Auditor General and the
Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) received the largest amount while the
remaining R2,5 billion went towards the other
institutions. He added that a careful consideration of whether this money was
well spent would also be done.
Ms D Smuts (DA) agreed that the issues of funding were fundamental. One of the
useful outcomes of the review would be to get some clarity if not uniformity on
what the Constitutional Court had said in dealing with the NNP vs IEC case: Judge Langa had said
that a line ministry could not control of a Chapter 9 institution because this mitigated against the entire rationale for independence.
Parliament had to perform this task even if it meant that all legislative and
policy arrangements, public practices and magistrate’s conventions would have
to be adjusted and brought in line with the new Constitutional prescripts. Dr
Bam had recently, during an informal get together, said that the IEC now
prepared its budget and submitted it directly to National Treasury thus
circumventing the line department. The Minister of finance then submitted their
budget to Parliament.
She said that greater clarity was needed in the case of the electronic
communications regulator, ICASA’s budgetary
difficulties. She argued for a convention whereby should institutions need more
funding they could approach National Treasury directly. Ms Smuts was also very
interested in what budgetary practice each institutions followed.
Saying that the Member had made her point, the Chairperson declared that the
Committee would discuss this issue at a later stage. Each institution would
meet with the Committee to share their budgetary process. The Committee would
also need to know what salaries the executive earned.
He felt that Ms Smuts had focused one just one judge’s judgment; the Committee
would look at the matter in its entirety. He agreed that funding was a very
important element and an investigation thereof should be accompanied by a very
close scrutiny of expenditure. National Treasury did a line by line assessment
of budgets; national departments were not necessarily that thorough.
The Chairperson wondered who apart from the Independent Communication Authority
of South Africa (ICASA) received money from licenses and transfers.
Mr Paris Mashile (Chairperson: ICASA) wondered
whether benchmark studies could also made of how other institutions such as
ICASA were funded.
Mr Terence Nombembe (Deputy Auditor General) wondered
what the impact of the review might have on the legislative framework that
governed each of the institutions. He was curious as to whether the Committee
would be championing amendments to the legislation or whether each the
institutions would have to do that on its own.
The Chairperson explained that the Committee would, that coming Wednesday, pass a questionnaire of about 15 questions that
would be sent to the different institutions. It would contain several questions
related to whether officials were satisfied with the manner in which the
institutions were structured.
He said that there might be a need to make some general amendments to existing
legislation. There might also be a need for constitutional amendments against
which he cautioned, saying that such amendments should be taken very carefully.
Referring to work the IEC did outside of South Africa’s borders, Ms
Pansy Tlakula (Chief Electoral Officer: IEC) asked
whether the Committee would be mandated to consider the impact that huge
international demands, which had not been anticipated when legislation was
passed, had on the IEC.
The Chairperson acknowledged the legitimacy of this question and said that the
Committee would certainly investigate such concerns too. He added that one
would also have to consider commissioners’ and executive members’ frequent
overseas visits and whether these could be justified. Issues of absenteeism
would also have to be addressed.
Dr Setai (Chairperson: FFC) said that the FFC was
also required to assist in the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD)
related maters despite the fact that such activity did not fall within its
mandate.
The Chairperson reminded all present that South Africa was still being treated
with much respect by the rest of the world. He thought that this status should
not only be recognised in the legislation but also within the budget.
The Chairperson said that Parliament had added this paragraph thus
including associated institutions within the review.
Mr Fakie noted that the Committee’s review
would be conducted in reference to other organs of the State. He asked whether
the terms of reference would also include the old Rule 66 of Parliament which
was aimed at passing a substantive motion in the House when allegations were
made against Chapter 9 institutions. He wondered whether the Committee would
review this particular provision.
The Chairperson said that the provision would remain because it was
important that Parliament should be involved in the process so as to ensure
accountability and to address matters when misconceived, vicious statements
were made about the Chapter 9 institutions.
Ms Pumla Madiba
(CEO: CRL Rights Commission) said that in the communication the institutions
had received from the Committee reference had been made to the fact that the
review would also look at whether the institutions were suitable to the South
African environment. She said that this raised questions around what the South
Africa environment was.
The Chairperson noted that environments changed. The issue of language
rights and culture were also tied up with the question of self determination.
South African society had changed much in the last decade and it was up to the
institutions to assess and determine the nature of the society at any given
point in time. The Committee could not give them the answers. Their reports
should cover the distinctive changes within society and how they related to
those changes.
Ms Chana Majake
(CEO: CGE) wondered whether the impact of Chapter 9 institutions would be
assessed and was curious as to what scientific process and methodology would be
used to assess the different institutions.
The Chairperson answered that it was in the institutions’ own interest
to carry out such evaluation. He said that whether the institutions had
evaluated impact would be one of the questions asked in the questionnaire. The
Committee had agreed that there would be an opinion survey too. It was good
that the media were present so that it could be reflected that Parliament was
starting to look at Chapter 9 institutions. He added that nothing in a
democracy was self evident – evaluation and interrogation was important.
Referring to untrue statements that had been made in the media, Mr Guma raised a concern around the amount of import that was
given to anecdote rather than tested information.
The Chairperson said that institutions made hundreds of recommendations that
were never responded to or acted upon. One government department for instance
had received qualified audit reports for 10 years running! This illustrated
that departments and accounting officers took very little responsibility as far
as implementation of recommendations (which by their very nature were not
binding) was concerned.
Mr Kallopen agreed that one could not make one’s
recommendations binding. One could however make it obligatory for some
departments to respond to recommendations. The South African Human Rights
Commission had a provision requiring a response within a certain period of
time.
The Chairperson wondered what Parliament’s role was in cases where there
was a continuous line of failure to respond to recommendations.
Adv Thipanyane said that he hoped that the
Committee would under Paragraph 2 (b) also look at Parliament and how it
responded to the many recommendations that organization had made. The SAHRC
would not make further recommendations to parliament because their
recommendations were not responded to.
The Chairperson asked whether the recommendations were made to the
Speaker or to the portfolio committees.
Adv Thipanyane responded that in terms of the
Constitution the SAHRC was accountable to Parliament and therefore had to
report to it. Their reports were sent to the Speaker and they expected that
Parliament received the recommendations.
The Chairperson was pleased that institutions were already making useful
recommendations. The Committee would look into the matter that had been raised.
He added that Parliament was setting up a resource centre where annual and
special reports would be kept for up to five years. The centre would serve the
office of the Speaker.
Mr J van der Merwe
(IFP) said that it was important to remember that Parliament and the Speaker
were not above the law. If the SAHRC wrote to the Speaker and she ignored them
they should report her to the Public Protector. He had for instance reported
the Minister of Justice “who has not done her work for three years” to the
SAHRC.
Ms Piliso-Seroke was also concerned about what
happened to the Commission’s reports once they had been submitted to
Parliament.
The Chairperson responded that the day before he received thirty-five reports.
He added that it was not very easy to evaluate an annual report if departments
did not include what they had said the previous year.
Mr T Delport (DA) sensed that the
Chairperson’s recommendations and views were not always taken seriously. He
wondered whether the Auditor General could inform the Committee as to his
expectations of a department that had year upon year received qualified
reports. He said that in the interest of bolstering democracy and governance
institutions should bear in mind that the departments they assessed also looked
at them for their reactions to poor assessments and failure to respond to
recommendations. If no action could be taken there was no need to respond.
Mr van der Merwe wondered
whether the institutions could from own initiative from take action when they
saw clear abuse of power and waste of money. He had read that Ministers had
spent much money on parties at their annual budgets, MEC’s
also spent much money, huge bonuses and salaries were being paid to CEOs and Government ignored high court judgments. The
public did not appear to know where to take their complaints.
Mr Fakie responded that it was important that
repeated qualifications be read and understood within the context within which
they were made. Some of the audit qualifications were very technical in nature
because his office audited to international standards and often technical
issues resulted in the qualification. When his office qualified an audit
report, the qualification often emanated from a technical auditing point or a
technical accounting point of view.
He added that there were also those qualifications that resulted from a very
blatant disregard of accounting treatment. This was a very basic aspect and
therefore of greater concern. Members also had to bear in mind the accounting
framework according to which departments prepared their accounts changed year
after year. Every single year National Treasury put out new guidelines and new
disclosure requirements with the intention of getting departments to move from
a cash basis of accounting to an accrual basis of accounting. Each year the bar
was being raised in terms of the requirements and often departments got
qualifications because they were not able to meet with the increased
requirements. Qualification was thus not necessarily based on the original
problem. He agreed that it was necessary to find those issues that were
repeated year after year and then to find a means of addressing them.
He pointed out that the Auditor General could only make recommendations
and could not take any actions around wastage, inefficiency around how public
resources were being utilised or whether there was a disregard for certain
accounting treatment. They could only make and try to monitor these
recommendations. They needed to find a mechanism of how to monitor these
recommendations. Parliament normally endorsed the recommendations and sometimes
added additional ones. A follow up and monitoring system would put more
pressure on departments and entities to act on recommendations. The Auditor
General however had no authority to take action. Parliament approved the budget
granted by Treasury. He advised that Parliament could perhaps request a
breakdown of the budget so that they could have a clear picture of how money
would be spent before they approved it. He cautioned that once a budget was
approved and the department spent within the framework of the budget there was
nothing that could be done.
Mr Lawrence Mushwana (Public Protector) said
that a specific provision allowed his office to initiate an investigation when
there was an allegation of abuse of power or maladministration. His only
concern related to their capacity to locate each and every such case. He
assured members that there where his office became aware of such cases they
reacted. He added that many such cases were unfounded but needed to be
investigated when they were reported to determine whether they were spurious or
not.
Adv Masutha said that the Committee should
welcome criticism by the Chapter 9 institutions as far as Parliament’s ability
to fulfill its own constitutional mandate in terms of
oversight. He felt that Adv Thipanyane’s comment
should be taken seriously and looked at more closely.
The Chairperson agreed that the issue should be addressed and did not
think that there would be a simple solution.
Ms Smuts was pleased that the review had passed from the Executive to
Parliament. She hoped that Paragraph 2(b) of the terms of reference did not
imply possible constitutional amendments. The Constitutional Court judgment in
its certification said that each body had to be dealt with according to its
nature. This was why the two watchdog bodies - the Auditor General and the
Public Protector – were required to have a 60% supporting vote from the
National Assembly at the time of their appointment. The appointment
mechanism was set out in the Constitution and she hoped that not too much
enquiry would go into that.
She hoped that now that the review had passed to Parliament and the ball was in
the Committee’s court they could help the Committee to take the process forward
by perhaps giving concrete proposals on the structures in Parliament that
should hold them to account. Each institution
was appointed to a portfolio committee that understood the work the
institutions. In some cases however an institution like the SAHRC should surely
have to report on socio economic rights to other committees as well. She
wondered whether the institutions were reporting to enough committees of
Parliament and asked whether there was space for a separate committee that
would interact with them in a corporate and collective sense.
Prof Hugh Corder from the University of Cape
Town’s Law Faculty had proposed that a single committee could do all of the
holding to account, assessment, budgetary evaluations etc. At that stage
everyone felt that the matter was not quite resolved and she herself had felt
that they could function without the portfolio committees. She wondered whether
there was a space for a supervising committee which would look at appointments,
removals from office and most of all budgeting and funding.
The Chairperson said that those questions had already been referred to and
would also be addressed in the questionnaire. He assured Ms Smuts that
everything about the appointment system would be on the table for closer
scrutiny.
The Chairperson then detailed the process the Committee would follow during the
review. In the coming week the Committee would meet with research institutions
and the Chapter 9 institutions would be welcome to send representatives. The
Committee would also in the following week send out the questionnaire which
institutions should complete by 15 December but not later than 10 January 2007.
It would be comprehensive questionnaire and the Committee would like replies.
He added that it would be in every body’s best interest if they were answered
as comprehensively as possible. He added that the Committee intended to publish
the names of the Departments who have responded to the questionnaire.
Each member of the Committee would take consider and interact with two
institutions. Some institutions were very technical in nature while others were
very broad and general. In February the Committee would start meeting with each
of the institutions individually. The meetings would not be less than three or
four hours, in some cases they may be the whole day. At that time the Committee
would have not only read the responses to the questionnaire but would also have
interacted with the annual and special reports.
Individual meetings with approximately eight ministers would follow. The
Committee would then ask for written submissions from non-governmental
organisations (NGOs) and would select the ones to meet with. The Committee
would then be able to meet what the general public to find out what their
experience of the institutions were. If the institutions had letters of
commendations or complaint they should share these with the Committee so that
Members would have an idea of the kind of responses they have been getting. The
Committee hoped to finish its work by April so that it would have at least a
month in which to write the reports and have discussions. At this stage the
Committee might have to call the institutions back.
The report by its very nature would be between 150 and 200 pages and the
Committee intended to stick to the deadline despite that the pressures the
beginning of the year normally held for Parliament and government departments.
Mr Guma thanked the Chairperson for the
clarification of the process. He said that it would be helpful if the Committee
could invite institutions well in advance so that they could adjust their plans
appropriately. He requested the Committee to once they had finalised their
research call the institutions back as a group to test its findings.
The Chairperson responded that the Committee would not be treating the review
as an academic exercise. Members were parliamentarians not consultants. He
urged institutions to treat the review with utmost urgency; everything else
except the most important aspects of their responsibilities should be set aside
until the review had been finalised.
Ms Tlakula asked whether selected
members of the Committee would go to institutions to do the individual
assessments.
The Chairperson said that at the first stage the Committee would meet
with the chief executives and the chairpersons. If a member of the Committee
thought it necessary they were mandated to investigate further.
Mr Kollapen said that while he understood that most
of the work would be happening in Cape Town, he felt that it would be valuable
for members who had been assigned to certain institutions to go and visit those
institutions to get a feel for the day to day activities at these institutions.
He said that the SAHRC had always welcomed the idea of review. As an
independent institution they took their independence and accountability
seriously but did not think that they were so independent that they “lived
somewhere in splendid isolation”. They took accountability seriously but were
concerned that they were unable to be held properly accountable if they
reported to Parliament for two hours once a year. This was not due to lack of
will but rather due to a process that failed to work effectively. Given the
amount of money that the Government spent on these institutions South Africans
were entitled to ask the fundamental questions around whether they were getting
value for money, whether institutions were functioning optimally and whether
current external and internal arrangements were the best possible.
The SAHRC intended to participate fully. Collectively the Chapter 9
institutions occupied an important space in the architecture of the democracy.
The outcome of the review should not expressly or otherwise reduce that space.
In saying that the space should be kept or increased one should jealously guard
it. One should obviously interrogate whether the space was used effectively and
that was what he understood the purpose of the review was. He hoped that the
Members’ colleagues outside of the Committee shared the sentiments the
Committee had expressed.
Mr Mushwana echoed the sentiments expressed by the Mr
Kollapen. It was his office’s undertaking too to give
the Committee its cooperation. This review was something it had been waiting
for, for quite some time and it had openly resisted the suggestion that the
review be conducted by the Minister. His office was pleased that finally the
process would be conducted by an appropriate body. His office would be
particularly interested in the process since it would indicate whether the
institution served its purpose or not. For the past four years they had tried
to reach out to where the people were and they had been unable to. The review
would assist them in achieving their goals.
Ms Piliso-Seroke said the Commission welcomed
the review which was long overdue. They had year after year been reporting to
Parliament of the many challenges they were faced with as well as with suggestions
for strengthening the Chapter 9s. They were pleased that that the opening
remarks had made mention of the fact that the CGE had waited for six months
before Commissioners were pointed. This had been discussed in Parliament and it
had caused much uncertainty and insecurity. The GCE did not know whether they
belonged or not. The CGE would also cooperate with the Committee.
Ms Tlakula also thanked the Committee and pledged
their cooperation. The IEC was going through its own internal review so this
review would be very helpful. She highlighted that the IEC despite being
excited about being involved outside of South Africa’s borders was challenged
by some of the demands that were made on it.
Prof Sangweni underscored what had already been said.
The PSC also welcomed the review and hoped that it would bear weight in
addressing some of the serious concerns. He hoped that through the review
institutions would be strengthened so that they would be able to strengthen the
developmental state.
Ms Margaret Bethlehem (CRL Rights Commission) welcomed the review as an
opportunity that would hopefully provide them with a permanent home – they were
currently under the DPLG while many think that they should perhaps feature
under the Department of Arts and Culture.
The Chairperson thanked everyone for their participation.
The meeting was adjourned.
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