Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence Draft Rules
Joint Rules
22 August 2006
Meeting Summary
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Meeting report
JOINT RULES
COMMITTEE: REVIEW OF RULES SUBCOMMITTEE
22 August 2006
JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE DRAFT RULES
Co-Chairpersons: Adv T Masutha (ANC), Kgoshi M Mokoena (ANC)
Documents handed out:
Agenda for 22 August meeting
Draft Committee Minutes: 14
June 2006
Legal Opinion: Participation of Local Government Representatives
Language Practices Relating to
Parliamentary Acts Bill
Draft Resolution for Establishment of Interim Scrutiny Mechanism
Incompatible Rules to be adjusted for Proposed New Chapter 2A
Compatible Rules for Proposed New Chapter 2A: Order in Joint Sittings and Rules of
Debate
Legal Opinion: Language Requirements for legislation
Legal Opinion: Language Practices Relating to Parliamentary Acts Bill
Draft Rules: Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence: Legal Services Office Comments
Interim Report: Joint Subcommittee On Delegated Legislation On
Scrutiny Of Delegated Legislation
SUMMARY
Advocates from the Parliamentary Legal Service Office took the Committee
through their comments and suggestions on the draft rules for the Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence.
Minor or technical amendments to the wording were proposed for Rules 1(2); 1(5)
and 1(7). The wording of Rule 19 caused several problems; firstly, the wording
seemed to imply certain rights and duties for secretaries which members agreed
did not exist. It was also suggested that the word “Resolutions” in 19(1) be
replace with “Recommendations”. It was proposed that the title of Rule 6 be
clarified, and there was some discussion whether its contents were better kept
under this Rule or placed with Rule 8. It was questioned whether there was
really a need for Rule 19 (4) as the duty set out existed as a matter of
course. Members commented that Rule 21(1) seemed to be very cumbersome and
imprecise. The legal advisors proposed that Rule 21(2) be amended to clarify
that it did not apply only to Members of the Committee. It was questioned why
this, and Rule 26, needed to be so clarified as it was preferable to deal with
any breaches by staff members by way of disciplinary procedures, rather than
setting them out in Draft Rules of the Committee. Furthermore Rule 26(10)
created an obligation to report matters to the National Prosecuting Authority.
Rule 27 currently gave overly wide powers to suspend the rules to the
Committee. The Chairpersons asked the drafters to attend to a redraft, taking
this comments into consideration, in consultation with the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence, and refer the re-drafted Draft Rules back to this
Committee in due course.
MINUTES
Adv F Jenkins (Parliamentary Legal Officer) took the Committee through the
Draft Rules. He commented that most of the suggestions he would make related to
style and grammar but there were some that related to substantive matters.
Rule 1(2)
The
definition of “agency” in rule 1(2) followed the wording of the Intelligence
Services Act No 38 of 1994. However, that act had been repealed by the
Intelligence Services Control Amendment Act 65 of 2002. Therefore, the
definition of “agency” in the draft rules should refer to Act 65 of 2002.
Rule 1(5)
Adv Jenkins
stated that although the term “Assembly Rules on Discipline” was defined, there
did not in fact appear to be any reference to it in the Joint Rules and
therefore this definition should be removed.
Rule 1(7)
Adv Jenkins stated that the definition of “President”
contained a reference to the Constitution. However, this reference had to be
consistent with the citation of Constitutional Laws Act 2005, in terms of which
no Act number should be associated with the Constitution. This Rule must
therefore be amended to bring it in line.
Rule 19(3), discussed with Rule 6
Adv Jenkins said that the wording did not make it clear whether rule 19(3) had
to apply to the Secretary of the Committee. He suggested that the phrase “with
the administrative assistance of the Secretary” be added after the word
“Chairperson.”
Dr S Cwele (Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence (JSCI))
felt that it would be better to keep the current wording to maintain the
correct lines of communication between the JSCI and the Executive. It would
prevent secretaries from writing to Ministers or even the President when they
did not have appropriate clearance to even look at certain documents.
Mr J Jeffery (ANC) said that, if that was the case, then rule 19(3) was in the
wrong place as it proposed giving the Committee Secretary duties he or she could
not have. He further commented that the word “Resolutions” at the beginning of
19(3) was inaccurate as it was doubtful whether that Committee could make such
decisions. He proposed that “Recommendations” was a better word.
Mr K Mansura (Undersecretary: National Assembly) then
asked for the meaning of Rule 6 and questioned whether it added any value
Dr Cwele believed that Rule 6 had been inserted to prevent members from
claiming ignorance of any of the rules or regulations that governed the
Committee.
Mr Jeffery stated that, to be consisted, then the Rule should be put into the
disciplinary section and specify that ignorance of the rules was not
acceptable. An alternative was to keep it under Rule 8 that dealt with the
responsibilities of the Committee.
The Chairperson pointed out that there could be some legal implications if
there were to be definitions of what were admissible and inadmissible excuses.
The remedy to this problem could be found administratively, by training and
induction processes.
The Chairperson suggested that the title of Rule 6 could be clarified to
“Duties of Members” and the duties could be included under this section.
Mr Mansura urged that there be greater clarity of the roles and distinct
responsibilities of the Committee Secretary and the Parliamentary Secretary. He
stated that, for example, Rule 19(3) could refer to the Parliamentary Secretary
and not to the Committee Secretary.
Rule 19(4)
Mr Jeffery questioned the need for Rule 19(4), that provided that the Secretary
had custody of all papers and documents tabled in the Committee or submitted to
the Committee. He believed this duty would arise as a matter of course and did
not need to be specified in the Rules.
Rule 21(2) and Rule 21(1)
Adv Jenkins stated that Rule 21(2) had to apply to any person and not just to
Members of the Committee. He pointed out that a similar section, Section 5(2),
made specific reference to “a person”. Rule 21(2) did not contain similar
wording and so he was concerned that members of staff were not covered by the
rule. He therefore suggested that the rule be redrafted to read “No person
shall disclose any intelligence, information or document, the publication of which
is restricted by law, and which is obtained by that person in the performance
of his or her functions in terms of the Act, except -…”
Mr Jeffery commented that he found Rule 21(1) very imprecise and cumbersome. He
was not sure what “prior to such disclosure on the question of such
information, except in accordance with this section” meant. The provision was
intended to deal with instances of disclosure to the media and to the member’s
political party, and needed to be revised to correctly reflect this intention.
Rule 26(2)
Mr Jeffery noted the proposed change to Rule 21(1) to refer to “persons” and
pointed out that Rule 26(2) also applied to “persons”. However, he asked why
Adv Jenkins believed it necessary to provide for disciplinary proceedings against
staff members. He said it did not seem to have been thought through properly.
If the Committee wanted the staff member to be suspended, all it had to do was
make a recommendation to the Secretary of Parliament, with no need for
disciplinary proceedings.
Adv Majolo replied that the word “persons” had to be included in rule 21(1) for
the rule not to be restricted to Committee Members only. If a staff member
breached the rule then the normal rules for disciplining staff members would
apply.
Mr Jeffery added that the Intelligence Act would apply as well regarding how
the intelligence documents were handled.
Mr Jeffery suggested that it may be better to have contracts with staff members
where their responsibilities were clearly set out and prohibited conduct
clearly described. He believed this was preferable to trying to incorporate
their conduct in the Rules as there could be confusion about lines of liability
and responsibility of staff members.
Rule 26(1)
Mr Jeffery did not believe that rule 26(10) was worded strongly enough. He
suggested that it could state that any information that came out of a
disciplinary hearing was not admissible in court. However, in fact this subrule
was not really necessary as the right set out in the Rule existed already, and
the word “must” in the Rule created an obligation to hand the matter over to
the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA), whether or not this was considered
desirable.
The Chairperson asked if the Committee really could elect to institute criminal
proceedings as rule 26(10) claimed.
Adv Jenkins replied that it was only the NPA that could decide whether to
prosecute.
Rule 27
Mr Jeffery questioned why the Committee was given the power in Rule 27 to
dispense with or suspend the rules. It seemed to be a very wide and unnecessary
power.
The Chairpersons commented that there was several points raised, and it was
clear that the drafts needed some work. The JSCI and the legal advisors would
therefore have to re-examine the draft and then present a coherent further
draft to this Committee.
The meeting was adjourned.
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