Spanish Ambassador: briefing; Committee Reports: adoption

FOREIGN AFFAIRS PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
14 June 2006
SPANISH AMBASSADOR: BRIEFING; COMMITTEE REPORTS: ADOPTION

Acting Chairperson: Ms F Hajaig (ANC)

Documents Handed out:
Main Priorities of Spain’s Foreign Policy
Committee Report on Principles and Guidelines Governing Democratic Elections and Standards and Norms for Elections dated 13 June 2006
Committee Report on Comoros Presidential Elections dated 12 June 2006
Minutes of Committee proceedings on 17 May, 24 May and 31 May 2006
Committee Report on South African Parliament delegation to 19^th Plenary Assembly of SADC Parliamentary Forum dated 13 June 2006[available at Committee Reports once adopted by the committee]

SUMMARY
The Spanish Ambassador briefed the Committee on the relations between Spain and South Africa and on the situation in the Western Sahara. He acknowledged that relations were growing between the two countries but that there was still a long way to go. He requested that there be a growth in parliamentary diplomacy between Span and South Africa. The crisis in Western Sahara had existed for many years with no prospect of a solution. He pleaded with South Africa to become involved in negotiations with the conflicting parties as the country had a strong history of aiding conflict resolution in Africa.

Members were concerned over the conflict in the Western Sahara and sought clarity on the role Spain currently played and the role South Africa was expected to play. Members sought further clarity on the immigration, human trafficking and terrorism problems faced by Spain and its plans to deal with these problems. Further clarity was also sought regarding Spanish relations with countries in Latin America and the movement of business people between South Africa and Spain.

The Committee also adopted six reports and were informed of its visits to Palestine and Israel and the Democratic Republic of Congo and Burundi between 31 July and 6 August 2006.


MINUTES
The Acting Chairperson informed the Committee that the Chairperson was away and as she was the Chairperson of the International Affairs sub-committee she would chair the meeting.

Adoption of Committee Reports

The Committee adopted six reports. These were a report by the Committee on the South African Parliament delegation to the 19^th Plenary Assembly of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Parliamentary Forum dated 13 June 2006, a report by the Committee on the Principles and Guidelines Governing Democratic Elections and Standards and Norms for Elections dated 13 June 2006, Minutes of Committee proceedings on 17 May, 24 May and 31 May 2006 and lastly, a report by the Committee on the Comoros Presidential Elections dated 12 June 2006.

Briefing by Spanish Ambassador

Mr Ramón Gil-Casares (Ambassador of Spain) stated that it was a great pleasure to address the Committee. He had spoken to the Chairperson in the previous week who had requested that he concentrate on the conflict in the Western Sahara in his briefing. He would do so even though he was disappointed that he could not spend the full amount of time of his briefing on the relations between Spain and South Africa. However, he hoped that he would be able to visit the Committee in the future so that these relations and the way forward could be discussed in greater detail as the countries were not as close as they should be.

The main idea that surrounded the countries’ bilateral relations and the main concern of the Spanish Embassy was that Spain and South Africa were too far away from each other geographically and mentally. Spain did not enjoy a common past with or presence in South Africa unlike a number of other European nations who had large communities living in South Africa. He joked that the only time Spain appeared in South African newspapers was in the sports sections.

This was a problem that needed to be addressed. The countries have had bilateral relations for a long period of time and with the birth of the new South Africa, the Spanish Government adopted a number of measures to increase contact with the country. There have been a number of significant visits between the countries. For example, in 1992 former President Mandela visited Spain and received with FW de Klerk, the Prince of Asturius prize bestowed on him by the crown prince of Spain. In 1999, President Mbeki, who was Deputy President at the time, visited the seat of the Spanish Presidency and in the same year the Spanish King and Queen visited South Africa.

It was now 2006 and both countries had been working hard on strengthening their relations especially the Foreign Affairs Ministry of South Africa and the Spanish Embassy in Pretoria but there was still a long way to go. In 2003 a Memorandum of Understanding was signed to force these relations and it established a bilateral committee to meet once a year to analyse the state of the countries’ bilateral relations and create initiatives to bring the countries together. During 2004 the Spanish Ambassador had the honour of presiding over the Spanish delegation that visited the country. In fifteen days’ time the Deputy Foreign Minister of Spain would be visiting South Africa to attend the third annual consultations that would take place.

As the agenda and talking points for this upcoming meeting was being drafted during the previous week it was highlighted that much could be done in the future. One of the main objectives was to achieve a figure of two percent of South Africans visiting Spain and two percent of Spaniards visiting South Africa. The image South Africans had of Spain was far from reality. It was a vibrant and complex society that was a member of the European Union (EU) and was probably the eighth largest economy in the world.

Spain no longer had an economy that was based only on agriculture and tourism; it now had a complex economic tissue and services played a large role. It was one of the main car exporters in the world and this formed a large part of the country’s trade with South Africa. It had a strong presence in Latin America where its level of investments was second only to the United States.

Unfortunately, investments in South Africa was limited to two major deals namely the factory of Columbus Stainless Steel in Mpumalanga which was sixty four percent Spanish owned and four hundred kilometres of the “platinum road” in South Africa that was also built by a Spanish company. Spain had recently been unsuccessful in two main tenders Spanish companies had applied for and this had created a bit of disappointment but the path to 2010 would probably lead to many Spanish companies becoming involved in South Africa.

He was sure Committee Members were aware of the many sad and tragic pieces of news of immigrants reaching the southern peninsula of Spain mostly from the Canary Islands. Spain has the third highest number of immigrants in Europe and the Spanish society is adapting fairly well to this development.

It played an important role in international relations not only in Latin America but was committed to multi-lateral institutions along with South Africa. Both were members of the alliance of civilizations and Spain was also a member of the alliance against hunger and poverty in which South Africa participated. Archbishop Desmond Tutu was a member of the high level committee of the alliance of civilizations and Spain was grateful for his presence.

However, a big gap still had to be breached between Spain and South. But a turning point had been reached in their bilateral relations with a number of planned visits on the agenda. Trade had been increasing although it had not reached the levels enjoyed by other European states. Tourism had also been increasing between the countries and he felt that this opportunity had to be grasped. In 2004 and 2005 several South African delegations visited Spain including the Minister of Intelligence who had represented South Africa at the memorial service for the terrorist attacks of 11 March. Delegations of the Ministry of Science and Technology, Health and Social Services had also visited Spain.

In July 2006 there would be a big presence of South Africans in Spain during a festival where entertainers such as Miriam Makeba and Hugh Masakela would be participating. Spain had been co-operating with South Africa for a number of years in the field of tourism and had helped finance tourism in country. It had also worked with the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism on a number of occasions.

The increase of trade when viewed in global terms had not been impressive. In 2003 it had amounted to around 1, 3 billion euros and in 2005 it had increased to 1, 6 billion euros.

There had also recently been a number of significant visits to South Africa. A week ago the Spanish Director of the Agency for International Co-operation visited Pretoria and met with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the National Treasury and the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD).

The Spanish Ambassador then announced that Spain would finance a pilot trust fund of ten million euros with NEPAD for micro-finance and gender projects. Some of these projects would be seen in South Africa. He had also had the opportunity to see first hand why South Africa was the main actor in the rest of Africa. In two weeks’ time Spain’s Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs would be visiting Pretoria in order to plan a way ahead in the co-operation between both countries.

In recent times Africa had become one of the main objectives of Spanish foreign policy. Two main documents had been presented recently by the Spanish Minister of Foreign Affairs. Firstly, the Africa Plan which was drafted by the former ambassador to South Africa and which showed plans to increase the presence of Spain in the whole continent in order to fight poverty, encourage co-operation between states, to consolidate democracy and promote human rights and strengthen and diversify economic exchanges.

A new age of hope was currently present in Africa and Spain wished to be part of it. Economic relations were the important elements that tied countries together and in September a conference had been planned where the Chief Executive Officers of some of the main Spanish companies would be visiting Johannesburg. The Spanish commercial office in South Africa was hoping to present these CEOs to the big South African market players. This would hopefully identify opportunities for both sides as well as create synergies so that economic exchanges would be increased.

Lastly, the officials at the South African Ministry of Foreign Affairs had been an immense help in increasing these relations particularly the Deputy Director General for Europe and the Americas. However, he hoped that this Committee and Parliament as a whole would also begin playing a role in this regard. The countries had not relied on parliamentary diplomacy in the past but hopefully Members of Parliament from both countries would visit each other in the future. This could lead to closer parliamentary relations in the future which meant closer people relations.

He then moved on to the second part of his briefing namely the situation in the Western Sahara. South Africa and Spain shared common views in the international sphere. The Spanish Government appreciated the role played by the South African government in the international arena especially its position on multilateralism, international development and peace, security and the consolidation of democracy in Africa.

The role South Africa has played in the continent had opened many doors for Spain and the countries have been discussing possible opportunities to work together in other African countries. For example, countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan and Burundi where South Africa had acquired an image of neutrality and had enforced negotiations between parties were mentioned. The image of South Africa and the role it played in all things African meant that it had become a key player in conflict resolution on the continent.

The conflict in the Western Sahara had been going on for much too long and has been one of the main concerns for Spanish Foreign Policy since the beginning of its democracy. He hoped that the countries would begin working together in order to find a just and peaceful resolution to this conflict. He would try to explain to the Committee Spain’s position on and its future plans in order to end the current standstill in the Western Sahara.

This conflict was deeply felt by the people of Spain for two reasons. Firstly, the Western Sahara was the only former Spanish colony in Africa and secondly, both parties involved in the conflict were close socially, culturally and sentimentally to Spain.

The Northern regions of Morocco were part of the Spanish protectorate in Africa and this meant that the countries were very close. The Spaniards living in Morocco viewed the country as their home and many Moroccans had also chosen to settle in Spain and had helped develop the country.

At the same time the sad history of the region which included Spain’s withdrawal and the suffering of the Saharawi people had created a feeling of solidarity and sympathy for their cause at all levels of the Spanish society. Since 1976 the Spanish Government was committed to trying to solve the dispute and had recognised that the differences that existed between the parties were influenced by the international trends at that specific time. South Africa and Spain also seemed to share a common position on the situation in the Western Sahara.

An historical perspective needed to be given in order to understand the problems that existed in the region. In 1975 under pressure from the international community and by force of its domestic circumstances Spain withdrew from the territory. On 14 November 1975 Spain, Morocco and Mauritania signed an agreement whereby the northern part of the territory would be occupied by Morocco and the remaining one third of the territory would be occupied by Mauritania. Prime Minister Franco died a week after these agreements were signed.

On 26 November 1976 the leaders of the Polisario Movement claimed unilateral independence of a new republic which was named the Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic. War then broke out between this movement, Morocco and Mauritania while more of the population in this region tried to flee to neighbouring Algeria. Several countries established relations with the new republic.

In 1979 Mauritania signed a peace agreement with the Polisario movement where a portion of Moroccan territory was then given to Mauritania. The Polisario Front then had a series of diplomatic successes and in 1980 in an Organisation of Africa Unity (OAU) conference in Freetown the front declared the Saharawi Arab Republic as the legitimate representative of the Saharawi people. Four months later the United Nations (UN) announced the withdrawal of Morocco from the region and by the end of the year many countries had established diplomatic relations with the Republic. In 1984 the Saharawi Republic was admitted as a member of the OAU and sadly Morocco withdrew from the institution at the same time.

He highlighted the fact that during the first years the conflict was greatly influenced by the Cold War which contaminated the issue as many countries took sides without really understanding the conflict. The former Soviet Union and its allies were sympathetic to the new republic and even provided military aid while its opposition in the Cold War stood by Morocco.

During this period the Spanish Government tried to get both sides to the negotiation table without much success. At the end of the Cold War new international trends and positioning of countries began and disputes were settled by peaceful means. In 1990 under the auspices of the UN, Morocco and the Polisario Movement agreed to the settlement plan. According to this plan a referendum would take place which would definitely settle the issue. However, it became difficult to establish a commonly agreed upon census. This census was the responsibility of the UN and one was created for the Western Sahara. These were years of optimism as a number of developments to end the conflict took place. Spain through its different governments tried time and again to pave the way for the agreement to be accepted by both parties.

Unfortunately no agreement on the census was reached and the referendum was postponed a number of times as the parties accused each other of not playing a fair game. Through a network of non-governmental organisations and through official channels Spain tried to give aid to the refugees of the conflict who were mostly women and children and who had been severely affected by the standstill of the agreement.

Spain was not a permanent member of the Security Council of the UN but it had still made every effort to keep the issue on the agenda of the Council and to achieve a common position on the issue by Members of the Security Council.

By 2000, the Secretary General of the Security Council realised that the parties would not reach an agreement on the census. Kofi Annan therefore asked his envoy James Baker to present alternatives. The Baker Plan followed where a framework of a proposed agreement was presented. This agreement was a solution based on an autonomous regime for the Saharawi region in Morocco. Ample powers would be granted to this autonomous government and this agreement was discussed at the Security Council. Talks were also held with Polisario and Morocco where both of them rejected the proposal. The framework agreement never had sufficient support within the Security Council and Spain who was a member of the Council in 2000 informed it of the impossibility of this agreement.

The Secretary General then presented four different proposals to the Security Council and asked Members to decide on one of them. Members of the Council refused to make a choice and efforts to find a solution continued. James Baker then in a final effort presented the so-called Peace Plan to the Council. This plan envisaged the development of an autonomous regime over a four-year period in a territory under the sovereignty of Morocco. After this development had taken place a referendum would occur. This referendum intelligently included both the census put forward by Spain in 1974 which was supported by Polisario and a large census that would include residents of the Moroccan territory.

At the beginning both parties refused to accept this proposal but after contact with other nations, Polisario accepted it and Morocco had also represented its own plan along the similar lines. The Council also labelled the plan as a just and lasting solution for the self-determination of the Saharawi people and encouraged negotiations for its implementation.

Spain tried very hard during those days to reach an agreement and spoke with both of the parties, the permanent members of the Security Council and with Algeria and Mauritania. It was during the Spanish Presidency of the Security Council that the plan was approved. Unfortunately the parties did not reach an agreement and this plan still has not been implemented.

For the last three years there has been no significant proposals made to end the conflict. The current envoy that has been working in the region recently presented a report to the Secretary General of the UN. This proposal recognised two possible ways forward. Firstly, to stay with the current impasse which would condemn future Saharawi generations to live as refugees, or secondly, to ask the parties to begin negotiations without any special positions. After discussions with both parties the Secretary General decided that this report would not be accepted.

Spain continued to be committed to finding a just, lasting and mutually acceptable agreement that would allow for the self-determination of the Saharawi people within the framework of the UN. The Spanish Foreign Minister had reiterated this on a number of occasions as he had spoken to both parties urging them to reach a solution.

However, the conflict had been contaminating the process of integration of the micro-region for a number of years. It is hoped that this integration would eventually provide an easy way out of the conflict. Spain is therefore encouraging the countries in the region to advance this process of integration but it is precisely the conflict in the Western Sahara that is slowing this integration down.

It is in this area that South Africa could play a considerable role. The country had made negotiation and peaceful agreements a trademark of its domestic and foreign policy. Both countries would benefit from listening to South Africa’s proposals and the country would benefit itself from the self-determination of this region.

It would be in the interests of South Africa and Spain to work together to achieve peace and to help develop this region. It was one of the areas in which the two countries had lots of room to work together in the future.

Discussion
Mr M Sibande (ANC) thanked the Ambassador for his briefing and welcomed the Spanish investment in Middleburg in Mpumalanga as this was his home province. It was important to encourage further Spanish investment in other rural areas. He wished to focus on the immigration of foreigners into Spain as South Africa could possibly face this problem after 2010. It was therefore important for South Africa to see how Spain dealt with this issue.

He highlighted that the wars in African countries and the problems in Palestine and Israel were not far from Spain. He also wished to know how Spain dealt with the problem of human trafficking as it was situated close to the ocean which was the main road for this trafficking. He was unsure if the Euro-African conference on immigration had already taken place in Morocco this year. He hoped that insight provided by Spain would enable South Africa to develop an approach to these problems.

Lastly, he also wished to know how Spain dealt with the aspect of anti-terrorism. He noted that was a serious issue and that in the case of Israel and Palestine it was often difficult to distinguish who were the actual terrorists as it depended on which side you took in the conflict.

Mr Gil-Casares noted that South Africa suffered as much as Spain with regards to illegal immigration. In the past many Spaniards left the country due to political and economic reasons. Many Spaniards therefore settled in Latin America and Europe. However, Spain was currently growing in population size the same as any other Catholic country in Europe. Statistics showed that nearly three million legal immigrants lived in Spain and they were mostly from Latin America. This figure made up less than ten percent of the population but the country was still seen to have the third largest immigration population in Europe.

The problem of illegal immigrants did not come from Israel or Palestine but from Northern African and the regions of the Southern Sahara due to poor political and economic circumstances. Illegal immigration had become an important business with human trafficking being an unfortunate side of this business.

This human trafficking started from the Spanish southern peninsula and the northern coast of Morocco as these areas were less than twelve miles apart and small boats covered this distance easily during the night. For many years this situation continued and there were stories of many drownings that occurred.

Spain and Morocco then began co-operating in order to impede this human trafficking. This path was sealed through the implementation of development projects in the Morocco so that people could find work in the country.

The flow of illegal immigrants then moved to the west and more specifically to the Canary Islands. The distance between the islands and Spain was much greater but illegal immigrants continued to flow into the country. A MoR led to this path also being closed to a large extent and at one point nearly fifty thousand would be North African immigrants were living in squatter camps in Morocco.

When it was clear that this path was sealed the immigrants began moving to Mauritania and five hundred thousand immigrants were seen at one stage around the borders of Mauritania hoping to cross into Western Sahara. By co-operating with Mauritania this path was also sealed and the immigrants have now begun moving down to Senegal. It was imperative that the Euro-African conference on immigration tried to change the image of immigration in order for it to be viewed more favourably. However, countries also had to fight against illegal immigration and human trafficking.

The cooperation between countries to fight illegal immigration should not be limited to just border politics. There also had to be a focus on promoting development so that people were encouraged to stay in their home countries. Immigration would also be focused on in the upcoming bilateral meeting between Spain and South Africa on 4 July.

Terrorism had been a threat to Spain for a number of years for no logical political cause. Spain had an autonomous regime but despite this a Marxist, Leninist Independence Movement that had never reached national government, tried to achieve its objectives through the use of violence if it was unsuccessful after using peaceful means.

Spain had asked and received co-operation worldwide and this movement had been included on both the terrorist lists of the EU and the UN. This co-operation had been successful and the movement had called a truce a few months ago. The government had since then tried to establish contact with them as soon as they rejected all forms of violence but this still had not occurred. He was sure that the Committee was aware of the fact that some of the members of this movement were in contact with South Africans and moved around the country. Spain was trying to fight this contact along with the South African authorities. The aim was to internationalise this issue.

In one of the movement’s latest demonstrations it had called for a fight against Spanish Apartheid. This apartheid did not exist as no racial issues were present in Spain. This group had also personally affected him as some of his family members had been forced to flee to other areas due to receiving threats from the movement.

The Spanish Government had also established co-operation with the EU and the UN to fight against terrorism at both domestic and international levels. The President of the Committee on Counter Terrorism in the UN was a Spanish diplomat who had been kidnapped by terrorists in the past and understood the situation well. Spain was also working closely with South Africa to address this serious issue.

Mr S Maja (ANC) enquired what the rate of unemployment was in Spain and how this rate impacted on crime levels in the country.

Mr Gil-Casares answered that in 1996 the unemployment rate stood at twenty-four percent. This was the highest level in the country’s history and in the European Union and created a feeling of unease amongst the Spanish population. Liberalisation and privatisation policies over a period of eight years led to this rate being reduced to nine percent which fell under the average unemployment rate of the EU and was lower that the rates of Germany and France.

Crime levels were directly linked to unemployment and were also a consequence of illegal immigration. For example a young African enters into Spain with his wife and small child and then cannot find work. He has no choice but to resort to crime in order to provide shelter and to feed his family. It then becomes easier to steal as part of a gang and many of these gang members are not interested in finding work as it was more profitable to steal.

It was understandable that racism or xenophobia could result from the actions of illegal immigrants. This was why one of the main issues Spain would concentrate on in the future was changing the perception of immigrants in countries where they settled, as around ninety nine percent of these immigrants were not bad. Secondly, it would concentrate on informing countries from which these people emigrated that the country they were hoping to enter was not paradise. He believed that South Africa had the same problem as immigrants from Mozambique and Zimbabwe had a distorted image of the country.

Mr L Joubert (DA) referred to the possible role South Africa was expected to play in the Western Sahara. South Africa had already accepted the independence of this region and enjoyed diplomatic relations with it. He wished to know to what extent these relations would affect the role South Africa could play in the future.

Mr Gil-Casares responded that it was extremely difficult for South Africa not to establish relations with Western Sahara. This country was the host of the Pan African Parliament and was also a member of the African Union (AU). During the Apartheid struggle there had been many contacts with the Polisario Front at a number of levels. South Africa, including President Mandela then promised to establish relations with the front but it had also tried to play a role in getting the conflicting parties together to discuss the conflict. It was also difficult to try to reform the structures of the AU while then leaving out one of its members especially with the establishment of the Pan African Parliament in its territory.

It might be thought that Morocco reacted negatively to South Africa’s recognition of the autonomy of the republic. However, Morocco did understand that South Africa was one of the leading players in African politics and that the skill of its diplomacy and the flexibility shown by the South African people and the Government as well as the ability to reach solutions in areas of great sensitivity could be of great help. Spain had communicated with the South African and Moroccan authorities and encouraged them to communicate with each other.

In order to find a solution, common ground between the parties would have to be found and South Africa had managed to do this within its own country in the past. He believed that South Africa’s relations with the Saharawi Republic would not impede this from happening in the future.

Ms S Camerer (DA) commented that the young Spanish tennis player Nadal was a wonderful example of what could be achieved. If would be “great” if he visited the South African youth in the future. She thanked the Ambassador for his comprehensive briefing on Western Sahara and noted that he had raised the issue of areas of divergence between Spain and South Africa with regards to UN reform. Where did these two countries diverge over this issue?

Mr Gil-Casares noted that Spain did share some common views and concerns with South Africa on UN reform. Spain had been speaking to the South African Government as well as with the other countries from the so-called United for Consensus on the reform of the Security Council. As far as he knew the position of the South African Government had not been taken but Spain had heard from different officials a position similar to that of the G4 if South Africa was included as a new permanent member would be acceptable.

Spain tended to think that an enlargement of the permanent seats of the Security Council where more differences were created between states was not favourable and rather leaned towards the enlargement of non-permanent seats on a new rotation basis. Creating a different type of permanent member would also lead to a third class of states with all the classes differing in term of their veto powers. This would also be problematic.

Spain believed it was not feasible to do away with the permanent seats and it would also be impossible to get the bigger powers to yield to the removal of their veto powers. Spain would try to encourage the proposals that called for the use of the veto power to be limited to Chapter seven and a further possibility would be that the veto power would only work if it was backed by at least two of the permanent members and not just one.

It presumed that South Africa would follow the decision made at the AU level. It was a difficult position as it would be difficult for a proposal to be made which did not include South Africa as one of the permanent members from Africa. However, it would also be difficult to exclude Egypt and Nigeria from this permanent membership. The situation of Africa was therefore difficult from Spain’s point of view.

Spain recognised the benefits of the proposals made by the G4 especially regarding the reform of the UN as it had remained the same since its formation after the Second World War. It was important to include Germany and Japan and to reform the bias that existed within the UN. Spain encouraged the enlargement of non-permanent members and a new rotation basis so that those countries that made a larger contribution than others would be given a greater opportunity to participate in the UN. However, it was important not to close the door to countries because a new level of non-permanent members had been established. Finally the working methods of the UN also had to be more transparent.

Spain did share a number of points of view with South Africa on the path the reform should lead to. It also understood that South Africa wished to become a permanent member of the UN even if it did not agree with this wish.

Mr M Ramgobin (ANC) was like Ms Camerer a fan of Rafael Nadal. He wished to make a few comments as well as a follow up on the issues raised by Mr Sibande. Firstly, he agreed with Mr Gil-Casares that illegal immigration had become a business and he argued that slavery had also started out this way.

He wished to raise the issue of xenophobic tendencies that were emerging in the Ambassador’s part of the world. Thirty five percent of the United States population consisted of people who were of Spanish descent or were at least Spanish speaking. This population outstripped the African American population in the country.

He had picked up and was fascinated by a number of comments made by analysts in Spain. One of these was that the United States provided maximum potential for people of Spanish blood and had become their launching pad in the twenty first century. Another professor argued that the United States had become a launching pad for the Spanish people or its symmetry.

Given the presence of the Spanish people in America a conclusion could be reached that there was this power of assimilation that existed. He wondered if this could be denied. He wished to raise against this background the question of xenophobia. He believed that the EU’s External Border Agency could help the Canary Islands to distinguish immigrants. The second step was joint surveillance of West African immigrants. He was also aware that Europol was planning to have meetings shortly in Spain. Besides the financial aid given by the EU to the Canary Islands what were the operational plans for these Islands? Secondly was he correct in interpreting that the attitude of the EU towards immigrants from the Canary Islands was racially based?

Mr Gil-Casares replied that in the United States the Spanish-speaking minority were not Spaniards but were rather Hispanic. This population was of mixed origin from the Latin American countries. Out of a population of forty seven million Hispanics, only thirty five thousand were Spaniards. It was estimated that by the year 2050 America would have the second largest population of Spanish speaking people after Mexico.

As far as immigrants are concerned it was unfair to state that the EU and Spain were particularly concerned over the immigrant situation coming from West and Northern Africa. About a week ago a ship had been stopped in the Mediterranean Sea which had come from Senegal or Gambia but had been filled with Asian immigrants from Pakistan, India and China. This showed how the human trafficking actually worked. People came from any part of the world to areas where it was easier to reach the country they wanted to enter. This was happening all over the world and was not a question of racism.

People who settled in Spain from Equatorial Guinea were granted citizenship one year after entering the country while immigrants from Europe and South Africa were in a less advantageous situation. It was rather how immigrants would integrate with the country that played a role. The idea of a Fortress Europe had sold well but it was unfair from the immigration point of view. Europe had in the past been extremely generous to people coming from abroad. However, this had fostered the problem of illegal immigration and human trafficking. He agreed that these issues could be compared to the slavery of the past as both shared common characteristics.

The attitude towards the Canary Islands was not racially based. Black Cubans and Porto Ricans would integrate much easier in the Spanish society due to them sharing a similar culture. It would be far more difficult for a blonde immigrant from North Africa to settle in Spain as he or she would differ culturally and religiously.

Ms Njobe (ANC) sought further clarity on the issue of Western Sahara. It was difficult to understand that the self-determination of the Saharawi people was so dependant on Morocco rather than Spain. She believed that Spain better knew the agreements that had been reached between itself and Morocco on the Saharawi people. These people wanted self determination and independence and it seemed that even though Morocco had not formed part of the Spanish colony, it was playing a larger role in determining whether these people should receive this independence or not.

It had been a long period over which this independence has been sought. It was also common knowledge that the former coloniser usually bestowed this independence onto the people in the former colony. She was therefore concerned that it seemed that Spain was not pushing hard enough to ensure that Morocco recognised this independence.

Mr Gil-Casares answered that before the withdrawal of Spain in 1975 the Moroccan King had the “pretension” that Morocco had in fact been split by the colonial powers. This pretension still existed in a limited form. At one stage Morocco had extended right to Senegal and it had therefore refused to recognise the Mauritania region in Morocco. Mauritania then became independent as it had been backed by the colonial powers.

Morocco kept on complaining that the Western Sahara formed part of Morocco. In 1975 a decision by the International Court of Justice was taken where the independence of the region was recognised and that it did not belong to Morocco. However, it was recognised that there were some links between the Sultan of Morocco and the Tribes of the Western Sahara. This mention of the loyalty links led to the organisation by the King of Morocco of the green march of nearly fifty thousand Moroccan citizens into the Western Sahara.

Spain was going through its weaker period and the UN had also not reacted to this move even though it was illegal. A large number of agreements had been unsuccessful and up to the present day there were no troops or Spanish presence in this territory.

Spain was not looking to a final solution of independence even though it would obviously not reject this solution. It rather looked to the self-determination of these people which could then hopefully lead to independence or even to the joining to another country although this situation was unlikely.

The level of sympathy for the Polisario cause was unbelievable but it did not feel it had the authority of a former colonial power as it had withdrawn from the region.

Mr M Madasa (ANC) sought further clarity on Spain’s attitudes to Venezuela and the leaning of Latin American countries to elect leftist governments. He noted that Nicaragua’s elections were also coming up. He questioned Spain’s attitude against the background that the country had rebuked the Bolivian government’s nationalisation but at the same time it had provided military jets to Venezuela which went against the interests of the United States. This tended to given mixed signals as to whether Spain was happy with the developments in Latin America or not.

Mr Gil-Casares replied that Spain and Latin America were extremely close. The Committee should be aware of the fact that the Spanish Government was a centre left government that belong to the international Socialists. The country tended to be more lenient to some Latin American countries than others. It enjoyed a close relationship with President Chavez of Venezuela even though his methods were sometimes unusual.

Three thousands Spaniards lived in Caracas in Venezuela and therefore a relationship with Mr Chavez was important. It did not believe that it should break contacts with a country merely because they are going through a new orientation in their policies. Mr Chavez had also been participating in all the Latin American summits and the EU / Latin American Summits and had not broken away from the Latin American community.

The aircraft that had been provided by Spain were not fighter jets but were rather military transport aircraft. Some of the parts of these aircraft had been fabricated in the United States and this was the reason for the controversy that had arisen. It had also sold naval transport ships to the country and these did have some weapons attached to them. However, Spain did not see this leading to a destabilisation in the balance of relations with other countries like Columbia.

Regarding the problem with Bolivia, the new Minister had been received by Spain and had also been received by South Africa. However, Spain felt that he had not followed the rules of the game and Spain had spoken many times with South Africa on this issue. Spain had merely reacted in the defence of the interest of its companies in Bolivia and had merely sent its Foreign Minister to the country in order to discuss with the authorities. Many firms from other countries would also have been affected by these measures.

Mr W Seremane (DA) requested the figures for people doing business between Spain and South Africa. Secondly, he wished to know what the attitudes were of Spanish citizens with regards to their foreign policy towards Africa and particularly South Africa. Was this foreign policy discernible and tangible and were they aware of the spin offs they would enjoy as a result of these relations?

Mr Gil-Casares was not in possession of the exact figures of the flow of business people between the two countries. However, this figure was not significant but it was increasing. The Spanish Commerce Office in Johannesburg had also arranged a number of commerce missions of Spanish businessmen to South Africa. Thirty missions had been organised from various sectors and had increased interest in the business sector of South Africa.

The development of Africa was extremely important to Spain. It believed that the continent had the potential to be the China of this decade and as it had missed many opportunities in the past, the country wished to take part in this development. Spain also believed that South Africa would play a central role in boosting the continent and Spanish businessmen understood this.

Once the larger Spanish companies invested in South Africa the smaller and medium enterprises would follow and these could create jobs and therefore lower the unemployment rates in South Africa. Spanish companies were also beginning to look towards 2010.

He would forward the figures of businessmen moving between the countries as soon as he acquired them.

The Acting Chairperson noted that Mr Gil-Casares had stated that there were three million immigrants in Spain and most of them were from Latin America. She wished to know what percentage of these immigrants were from Northern and Western Africa.

Mr Gil-Casares was not sure of the number of Western and Northern immigrants in Spain but he would forward these figures as soon as he acquired them. However, he pointed out that the three million immigrants that were situated in Spain were legal immigrants. All the illegal immigrants in Spain were unaccounted for.

The Acting Chairperson thanked the Ambassador for his briefing and comprehensive answers. She reminded Committee Members that there would be a joint meeting with the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs the following Wednesday where the Department would brief the Committees on the Democratic Republic of Congo and Burundi.

She also informed Members that two Committee trips had been approved and would take place between 31 July and 6 August 2006. However, the delegations would only consist of four Members. The first trip was to Sudan and Kenya and the delegation would consist of Ms Njobe (Leader), Mr Sibande, Mr Holomisa and Mr Seremane. The second delegation would visit Israel and Palestine and would consist of herself, Dr Luthuli, Mr Gibson and Mr Skosana. She was required to lead the delegation but she would not be able to make the trip and would inform the Chairperson of this on his return. She requested that these Members bring their passports to the Committee Clerk.

The meeting was adjourned.