Department of Safety & Security on Strategic Plan and Budget 2006/7: briefing

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Meeting report

SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS SELECT Committee

SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE
17 May 2006
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY & SECURITY ON STRATEGIC PLAN AND BUDGET 2006/7: BRIEFING

Chairperson:
Kgoshi L Mokoena (ANC) [Limpopo]

Documents handed out
Department of Safety and Security Budget 2006/7 – Vote 24
Presentation by Department of Safety and Security on Strategic Plan and Budget 2006/7

SUMMARY
The presentation by SAPS outlined its strategic priorities as detailed in its 2005 to 2010 strategic plan, the key initiatives and deliverables for SAPS’s administration, visible policing, detective services, crime intelligence and protection and security services programmes. Its spending policy directions and expenditure for the 2006/7 financial year and the current Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) was outlined, per programme.

During the discussion the Committee sought clarity on the funds spent to repair and maintain damaged SAPS vehicles, how precisely it would assist the Western Cape Safety and Security MEC to fight the scourge of gangsterism and whether its visible policing programme was a success. The National Police Commissioner explained the extent of the increase in salaries of SAPS officers and the shift in SAPS’ focus towards providing police stations in areas that needed them most, rather than in the privileged areas alone. SAPS was asked whether it had changed its view on the leasing of its buildings instead of building and owning their own premises in order to save public funds, and clarity was sought on the effectiveness of its retention and recruitment policies. SAPS was on target to provide 170 000 officers by 2007 and it would be able to absorb the Scorpions in a very short period of time, should the Khampepe Commission so decide.

It was explained that both the Metropolitan Police and the Community Policing Forums (CPFs) fell outside SAPS, and therefore the latter could not be funded by SAPS. The domestic violence unit would not be disestablished, despite fallacious media reports to the contrary. It was hoped that the witness protection services be moved to SAPS from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. It was explained that SAPS provided a wide range of counselling to its members, to ensure high morale. The National Police Commissioner failed to see the continued relevance of the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD), as the transition had been made from a police force to a police service that now operated in a democratic state.

The National Police Commissioner condemned the acts of public violence perpetrated during the march by striking security guards on the previous day. He rejected claims that SAPS be forced to pay for the damage to property, as it was not caused by any member of SAPS. The costs should be provided by the union leaders themselves.

MINUTES
Introduction by Chairperson

The Chair welcomed all present, especially the National Commissioner and his delegation.

Briefing by Department of Safety and Security
National Police Commissioner J Selebi began by introducing the SAPS delegation: Deputy National Commissioner Hlela: Supply chain management and Evaluation and protection and security services; Deputy National Commissioner V Singh: Human Resource Management and Legal services; Divisional Commissioner M Stander: Personnel services; Divisional Commissioner M Siwundla: Logistics; Divisional Commissioner A Lamoer: Operational response services; Divisional Commissioner S Schutte: Financial and administration services, Assistant Commissioner Munu: Detective services; Assistant Commissioner Morkel: Strategic management and Senior Super Mavundla: Strategic management. He was glad to announce that Deputy National Commissioner Singh was voted the country’s best civil servant for 2006

He stated that he believed the performance indicators to be the most important factors for SAPS, because they were used to measure whether SAPS was achieving its goals or not. He believed that without performance indicators the entire exercise was futile. He proceeded to introduce the delegation, and indicated that Senior Superintendent Mavunla would conduct the first portion of the presentation on strategic management and Divisional Commissioner Schutte would deal with the financial specifics.

Senior Superintendent Mavunla outlined the SAPS strategic plan for 2005 to 2010, its strategic direction as mandated by the Constitution and other relevant legislative and policy frameworks. She outlined SAPS’s strategic priorities as detailed in its 2005 to 2010 strategic plan, which were used to develop performance indicators for each programme. The key initiatives and deliverables per programme were outlined, which were its administration, visible policing, detective services, crime intelligence and protection and security services programmes.

National Commissioner Selebi sought to explain the target for its protection services programme which was set at 0% for the 2006/7 financial year, as it created the impression that SAPS was setting itself up for failure. The reality however was that protection services was a new division and SAPS must in reality play down those figures to give itself room for growing pains, such as cargo that it might miss when it entered or left the country. The programme also involved the protection of the national key points, which included Parliament itself. The aim was to ensure that the kinds of unacceptable activities that happened near Parliament the previous day, during the march by striking security guards, should never have happened. There were currently 133 national key points in South Africa. They needed to be revised along with the SAPS targets for those priorities, because its objectives were too optimistic given the large number of key points.

The crime intelligence figures reflected in the presentation may not be as detailed as the Committee might have wanted, but the details of that aspect was reported to Parliament’s Intelligence Committee. The presentation thus provided only a broad framework. Much of the information was confidential, and the Members of that Committee were sworn to oaths of confidentiality that precluded them from divulging the information.

In reality the figures reflected in the presentation on SAPS’s general crime investigation and specialised crime investigation operations would change as it continued its process of renewing the organisation. The manner in which SAPS was organised in the past, especially a particular unit, prevented it from delivering the services it now wanted to deliver on. He was referring to the serious and violent crime unit, which was basically the old murder and robbery squad. The problem was that they were located not at one of the 1136 police station in South Africa where they were needed most, but rather at area or even provincial level. That regional unit must be relocation to station level, so as to empower officers at police stations. The relocation process was currently underway and would most likely conclude in October 2006.

Secondly, there were far too many hierarchical and bureaucratic structures and procedures within SAPS and bureaucratic structures. The decision was taken to remove the area commissioner’s office level, which was presenting itself as a post box for protracted correspondence within SAPS. SAPS had considered the relocation over the past two and a half years, and it was decided that the bureaucracy would be overcome if the resources and skills at the area office were relocated to station level.

Thus the levels reported in the presentation would improve through the year because SAPS was relocating personnel.

He stated that there were 169 policing areas within the country that constituted the highest crime levels. These included Khayelitsha in Cape Town, Motherwell in the Eastern Cape, Galeshewe in the Northern Cape, Kwamashu in Kwazulu-Natal, Alexanderia in Gauteng and Thohoyandou in Limpopo which reported many rape cases. If SAPS focused on those 169 areas, it would reduce the levels of crime rapidly. However those problem areas would not be resolved through police action alone. SAPS were much more successful when they operated in places that were organised, where unemployment levels were not high, where the necessary infrastructure and recreation facilities existed for young people, etc. It thus required an integrated response from various government departments.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte conducted his portion of the presentation which dealt with some of the defining moments of the budget process for SAPS, its spending policy directions for the 2006/7 financial year, the linkage between programmes and strategic priorities and the economic classification of payment on its items. The crux of the matter was the slide that outlined SAPS budget figures from the 2003/4 financial year to the 2008/9 financial year, which indicated substantial growth rates. The presentation outlined the new budgetary allocations per category which increased over the 2006/7 to 2008/9 Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), and which included a payment of R20 million to boost the Metrorail security system. He outlined in detail the year-on-year increases in SAPS’s budget over the current MTEF period, per programme. He added that the increases in visible policing budget impacted directly on SAPS’ capacity.

The particulars of the specific strategic items of SAPS over the current MTEF period were explained as well as the current payments, transfer and subsidies and payments for capital assets. The increases in items over the MTEF would result in a growth of the estimate from R32 billion in 2006/7 to R38 billion in 2008/9. SAPS had reached its enlistment targets for new recruits every year to date since 31 March 2003, and planned to grow the total number from 132 000 in 2003 to 179 000 in 2009. The training provision over the MTEF was outlined, as well as the status and programmes for SAPS vehicles. SAPS were looking at differentiated norms to arrive at a more accurate personnel to vehicle ratio.

SAPS capital works budget had exploded because of a shift from the Department of Public Works (DPW) to SAPS as of 1 April 2006, and the devolvement of the budget from the DPW was explained. He stated that SAPS’ rental portfolio could be tight towards the end of the year, but this was the first year it was managing that portfolio since it was taken over from Department of Public Works and it was thus a learning curve.

The borderline security function had been shifted to SAPS from the South African National Defence Force (SANDF), and it had received dedicated funds over the MTEF to provide that function. The allocations for SAPS reservists were outlined, as well as the number of reservists that that allocation would secure. The expenditure figures for the Integrated Justice System were provided, and the Committee was invited to request detailed information from SAPS on those items. The IT allocation was explained, as well as a multi-year overview of SAPS capacity building programmes and the departmental provincial operational allocations for 2006/7.

Discussion
M A Manyosi (ANC) [Eastern Cape] thanked SAPS for the comprehensive briefing. He was relieved that the issue of reservists had now finally been addressed, but asked whether there was any future prospect of SAPS employing reservists. This was especially relevant in the rural areas were matriculants were becoming reservists because they had not other prospects of employment.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that there was no guarantee that because a person was a reservist, he would become a member of SAPS. There were different conditions that applied to each position.

Mr Manyosi questioned the requirement that SAPS officers have driver’s licences, especially as it applied to persons in rural areas. It made little sense, as they did not even have vehicles in those areas. He asked whether it would be possible to require them to do their drivers licence test during their training, and not to have it as a prohibitive requirement.

National Commissioner Selebi replied that any person who applied for any job bore the responsibility of meeting the job requirements stipulated by the employer. Similarly, SAPS had presentation-requisites like the possession of a Grade 12 certificate and a valid driver’s licence. The latter was important because if the person did not have a driver’s licence SAPS would have to employ personnel to drive them to a crime scene, which was both not financially sound and inefficient.

Even if the person did not possess a valid driver’s licence, like many people in the rural areas, SAPS would still enrol them at the training college and give them a stipend. They were however only allowed to graduate from the college as a police officer if, at the end of that training period, they had used that stipend to secure a valid driver’s licence. SAPS had thus made room to accommodate those people.

The only persons that SAPS took on who did not possess a valid driver’s licence were reservists, because they functioned only in the presence of functional police officers. The second reason why the two requirements that applied to all other applicants did not apply to reservists was that, in the past, they precluded underprivileged groups such as farm workers from joining the reservists system. The fact of the matter was that those persons did not have Grade 12 and a driver’s licence. The relaxing of the requirements for reservists thus enabled even a farm worker to be interested in the security of his own family, his colleagues and employer etc.

Mr Manyosi sought clarity on the SAPS measures to ensure a reduction in the overcrowding in its holding cells.

Secondly, he sought clarity on the extent and effectiveness of the co-operation between the various government departments in the Justice and Crime Prevention Sector.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte replied that there were inter-departmental forums between the related government departments on various levels, between Directors-General and other officials as well. There might be cases in which the responsibilities of the government departments involved resulted in a bit of overlapping, but that was preferred to having large gaps in service.

Mr Manyosi sought clarity on the extent of the damage caused to SAPS vehicles during the ordinary course of its business.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte responded that the extent of damage to SAPS vehicles annually was in the vicinity of R60 million, but not all was a result of improper conduct. Damage was also caused by trans situ heists in which rounds were fired into SAPS vehicles. Damage could also be caused by vehicle pursuits. It was thus caused by lawful SAPS operations inherent to the discharging of its duties.

Mr Manyosi welcomed the growth of SAPS budgetary allocation. He asked SAPS to indicate whether, in its own opinion, its budget was adequate to enable it to discharge its mandate.

Mr N Mack (ANC) [Western Cape] noted the increase in salaries for SAPS officials. He welcomed the increase and hoped they would be paid much more, because much was expected of them. He pleaded for police officers to be paid more.

National Commissioner Selebi replied to the two questions by stating that SAPS was very much aware of the competing interests which vied for funding from government. He did believe however that government had granted SAPS sufficient funds for SAPS to properly discharge its duties. It was impossible for SAPS or other government departments to receive exactly what they want, because government had to satisfy various competing demands as best as it could. Having said that, he stated that the salaries of SAPS officials have grown continuously over the previous four or five years, particularly in the junior ranks. The officials in the higher echelons did not receive a penny of that increased allocation on personnel, because SAPS understood that it needed to increase those salaries as a matter of urgency. At the end of the three year period salaries had increased by 34% for level 2 to 12 officers, which marked a massive increase if one took into account other competing needs. He believed that police officers were motivated mostly by the desire to serve the country, and were not in it to make money. Government had been very sensitive and responsive to SAPS’ demands for better payment.

Mr Z Ntuli (ANC) [Kwazulu-Natal] agreed with Mr Manyosi that a thorough presentation had been delivered. He stated that the President mentioned in his 2005 State of the Nation address that SAPS would consist of 170 000 police officers by 2007. He asked whether SAPS was on track to meet that target.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh responded that the slide entitled "SAPS enlistment programme 2002 to 2009" identified SAPS’ targets for that defined period, which was to have 178 910 officers by 2009. She confirmed that SAPS would be able to reach its 2007 target, as illustrated by the slide. As mentioned earlier by National Commissioner Selebi, SAPS recruited up to 11 000 members in its training colleges, as well as Public Service Act members. SAPS had been on track in meeting its targets each year.

Mr Ntuli stated that he was aware of an area in his constituency in KwaZulu-Natal in which vacant posts at police stations were not filled. He had inquired with the area commissioner who informed him that all replacements would be done in 2007, as the President stated in his State of the Nation Address. He stated that he found the response very strange, and asked for clarity.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh replied that SAPS’ human resource plan catered for 4000 losses per year. Over the last few years the numbers have dropped below 4000, and thus SAPS’ effective gain in personnel was much larger than the losses in personnel. The slide reflected that that allowed the effective gain, at the latest MTEF figures, to stand at 22 850 officers. The losses were thus being replaced. Officers were not however allocated to the specific police station in which the initial loss occurred as replacement officers were allocated at provincial level, and the provincial commissioner then deployed them.

Mr Ntui asked SAPS to comment on the closing of the satellite offices due to lack of resources and personnel shortages.

Secondly, he sought clarity on the repair of vehicles function.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte responded that the SAPS vehicle repair and servicing component amounted to approximately R300 million per annum. SAPS has put shortened measures in place for the smaller umbrella authorisations of workshops. This would prevent any problems or delays in the repair and service of SAPS vehicles. The fact of the matter was that if SAPS had a vehicle fleet of 35 000 units, it did not make sense to save pennies in the repair and maintenance of its fleet. SAPS spent in the vicinity of R70 million per month on petrol. He was of the view that SAPS pulled out all the stops to maintain its vehicle fleet.

Deputy National Commissioner Hlela added that in Kwazulu-Natal specifically had two police garages at which SAPS vehicles could be repaired. A contract was in place to provide parts for vehicles, and there was thus no need for vehicles to lack parts and to remain in repair garages for unduly long periods of time. SAPS would address the matter.

Mr Ntuli sought a progress report on the collection of illegal firearms.

Furthermore, he sought clarity on the extent to which transformation within police stations had been ensured. It appeared that only urban police stations received awards for commendable service delivery, but not those in the townships. They were not treated in the same way. The playing fields must be levelled.

Mr Mack stated that he saw no transformation by SAPS in the rural areas, because the police stations were still located in the upper or ‘white’ town. That was problematic because most of the services were needed in the townships, and that was where the police stations should be located..

Deputy National Commissioner Singh replied to the two questions by stating that a few years ago SAPS identified 19 police stations as the most impoverished, which were the presidential stations. They were targeted to ensure they received the best resources in terms of equipment, vehicles, IT, personnel and in terms of budget allocation. They had consistently been a priority since then, in an effort to provide police stations in the rural areas with the best capacity.

Mr Ntuli asked for the locations of the sexual offences courts.

Secondly, he stated that cases were reported in the media in which witnesses were executed so that they could not testify in court despite being in the witness protection programme, with the result that the criminal walked free. He asked how SAPS ensured that the case nevertheless went ahead even if all the witnesses were eliminated.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that his wish was that a point would be reached at which it would no longer be necessary for people to be taken into witness protection. Society must develop to the point where witnesses were able to "go to court and give evidence and be left alone b everybody". This would however take a lot of time.

At the moment the witness protection services fell under the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. However the personnel who were actually providing the witness protection services were members of SAPS. Approximately 90 members of SAPS had been loaned to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to provide that service. SAPS would, however, be discussing the matter with that Department, because he did want those 90 members to be returned to SAPS. Those members were lagging behind as they were missing out on all the career developments that all other SAPS members were undergoing, and they were thus missing out on forging a career path within SAPS by being on the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development’s witness protection staff. SAPS had given the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development time to ‘get its act together’ and hire their own people to provide that function.

Mr Ntuli stated that National Commissioner Selebi spoke of a Parliamentary Committee that required its Members to take an oath of confidentiality, but he knew of no such Committee.

The Chair confirmed what National Commissioner Selebi had said, regarding the oath.

Mr Ntuli welcomed the deletion of the area commissioner level.

Secondly, he asked whether SAPS was responsible for funding the Community Policing Forums (CPFs). He asked whether they were operating effectively because nothing much has been heard about them for a while.

National Commissioner Selebi replied that he wanted to make it clear that SAPS would not be paying the CPF’s. They were essentially members of the community who were concerned with the levels of crime in their communities, and requested to meet with SAPS to evaluate its strategies for crime prevention. They were thus a communication medium between SAPS and the community. They were not a division of SAPS and therefore SAPS did not have to pay them salaries. He stated that if SAPS were to pay them salaries, it would create huge problems. People would be applying ‘left, right and centre’ if they heard SAPS would be paying salaries to members of the CPFs.

SAPS assisted the CPFs in convening their meetings at police stations, provided them with stationery for correspondence and transport for the members of the CPF to address the community about community problems.

Mr Ntuli sought clarity on the relationship between SAPS and the metropolitan police.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that SAPS had met with the chiefs of the metropolitan police of Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban and Ekhuruleni. An agreement was reached that SAPS would determine the qualifications needed, and the training provided to members of the metropolitan police. SAPS were however the sole commanding structure for all the policing agencies, including the metropolitan police. SAPS had left it to the chiefs of the various metropolitan police to draft exactly how that would take place. SAPS would then take the proposal to the Cabinet Lekgotla in July 2006. SAPS would like to retain the metropolitan police as a force multiplier.

He stated that he had rejected a number of applications for the establishment of metropolitan police in areas where there was no need. They were called metro police specifically because they were meant for the metropolitan cities alone, not for small towns.

Mr Ntuli sought clarity on SAPS’s involvement in the Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP).

Secondly, he thanked SAPS for the good service it rendered to the country, but stated that he also had several concerns. The court services directorate within the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development was complaining because, although there has been an increase in the number of cases have increased, cases were being thrown out of court due to a lack of evidence. A pertinent example was the former mayor of Beaufort-West. He faced 17 charges, but the case has again been postponed due to lack of evidence. There appeared to be a problem with the gathering of the evidence needed to secure a conviction and, because that was not being done properly, the direct effect was that the court rolls were being congested unnecessarily.

Thirdly, Mr Mack stated that the response time from police precincts was far too long, and some even took days to respond. He was of the view that this was due to a lack of vehicles in rural areas.

Fourthly, he stated that the biggest problem in Cape Town is, and has always been, gangsterism. Clearly the fight against gangsterism required more resources and focus. The MEC for Community Safety, Mr Leonard Ramatlakane, was doing his best but simply did not have the necessary resources. The related problem was that the drugs that were peddled by the gangstered flowed over into the schools, which created a whole host of problems and proliferation of criminal activity. He asked SAPS to explain how it would assist the MEC to deal with gangsterism.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that SAPS’ primary concern in the fight against gangsterism was the elimination of illicit firearms. The second focus area was the seizing of narcotics. He stated that last week SAPS had seized mandrax tablets at a drug house to the value of R1, 4 billion. This was but one of many busts. It was discovered that one of the main reasons for the problem was that rival gangs were fighting over turf for their narcotics peddling. SAPS had sent officials a far as Brazil and Mexico to the study levels of gangsterism in those countries, which were higher than those in South Africa, with a view to identifying methods to address the South African phenomenon of gangsterism. It will take SAPS a bit of time to address the matter.

He stated that he was saddened by the manner in which residents of the Western Cape not too long ago gathered at the court case of a known drug dealer and called for his immediate release. He was shocked that they actually considered him a hero. The reason for their actions was that drug dealers used people’s houses to store their drugs and paid their rent, and employed the young boys as runners. This clearly meant that the South African government must do something to raise the standard of living of people, so that they were not dependent on drug dealers to pay rent and electricity etc.

Mr Mack thanked National Commissioner Selebi for moving the murder and robbery squad to the police station level. It was a welcomed decision.

Secondly, he asked whether any research had been conducted on how effective SAPSs visible policing programme had been. Furthermore, he expressed concern at the fact that SAPS’ policing was always reactive, and were not patrolling sufficiently to discourage crime and act as a deterrent. He was of the view that visible policing was not only about the securing of vehicles, as the increase in foot patrols was also important as a deterrent. He asked SAPS to indicate the most effective ratio of visible police officers to individual members of the population.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that SAPS was unable to measure visible policing, because it entailed the prevention of crimes. It was thus not possible to quantify crimes that had been avoided. He informed Members that the United Kingdom reported 700 heists per annum, with South Africa not even making 300. Yet if one were to believe the media reports, South Africa suffered millions of heists per year. Visible policing was thus effective.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh added that SAPS had established ratios of police officers to population groups for each province. It took into consideration various factors such as the occurrence of crime, the terrain, the populations, the urban/rural mix, the main economic activity and the level of development in a province. The Eastern Cape, for example, in 2002 had a ratio of 1:548, but that ratio currently stood at 1:478. Free State now had a ratio of 1:352, Gauteng was 1:362, KwaZulu-Natal stood at 1:524, Mpumalanga was at 1:439, Northern Cape stood at 1:198 due primarily to the sparseness and great distance between settlements, North West stood at 1:475, the Western Cape stood at 1:300 and Limpopo stood at 1:650. The allocations to each province were informed by those ratios.

Mr Mack asked whether SAPS would be ready to absorb the Scorpions, if that was the ruling of the Kampepe Commission. He asked whether SAPS wanted those personnel and whether their absorption would benefit SAPS.

National Commissioner Selebi replied that he had nothing to say about the Commission. The Commission was expected to present its findings to the President, who would then announce those findings. As to whether SAPS was ready to absorb the Scorpions, he stated that that unit consisted of only 500 personnel whereas, as the presentation indicated, SAPS took on 11 000 new recruits per year. That amount was merely the size of the personnel complement of a large police station such as Johannesburg central. The Scorpions could be fully accommodated within two days, depending on their expertise.

He made it clear that there would be no elite law enforcement structure outside SAPS. No structure would be considered elite by legislation. That would only be dictated by performance in law enforcement. It was for that reason that SAPS had performance management systems in place.

Mr Worth thanked SAPS for the thorough presentation. He noted the "wonderful figures" reflected in the presentation and the increase in the SAPS budget, but the reality of the matter was that the general public did not perceive crime rates to be decreasing; in fact, the perception was that crime was increasing. The JCPS cluster as a whole needed consider this problem.

Secondly, as SAPS become more effective and apprehended more criminals, magistrates were given the discretion to hand down lesser sentences for the minor crimes, the Department of Correctional Services was unable to cope with the influx of inmates, some were given amnesty and ended up free and back on the street. He stated that the entire system was thus like a revolving door, and was not effective at all.

Thirdly, Mr Worth stated that the drug peddlers on the Sea Point main road were easy to spot, yet SAPS did nothing about them.

Furthermore, he stated that the police were present in numbers at yesterday’s march by striking security guards, but he questioned the training provided to SAPS officers to deal effectively with such events. The officers took up positions at the front and back of the column, but not on the sides of the column, with the result that they were able to damage cars and property very rapidly with impunity. He asked who would pay for the damage caused.

Mr Mack stated that he was very upset by the events that transpired at yesterday’s march so close to the Parliamentary buildings. A Member of Parliament’s car was even damaged

The Chair stated that he suspected that South African Transport and Allied Workers Union (SATAWU) members had infiltrated yesterday’s march, because the behaviour exhibited was not innocent nor was it acceptable by any standards. He stated that people sympathised with some of the demands of the security guards, but the violent behaviour led him to believe that the march was infiltrated.

National Commissioner Selebi responded to the three questions by stating that the events that transpired at the march were very unfortunate. He could not believe that that had happened especially since he had had discussions with the leadership of the unions on two occasions prior to the march precisely on the issue of violence, and he informed them that it was unacceptable to push their demands on the basis of being violent against innocent persons. They agreed to speak to their members about the use of violence. He indicated to that leadership that those commuters who the striking security guards had thrown off the train were themselves workers, and he thus failed to understand the reasoning behind their actions.

He saw the pictures of the march and was concerned by its proximity to Parliament, and assured the Committee that SAPS would take action. Those who had been arrested would go to court and face justice. SAPS could however not be expected to pay for any damage caused, as no SAPS officer caused the damage. The damage was caused by those striking security guards who sought to send a message, and their leaders must therefore take responsibility. SAPS condemned the violence and will ensure those responsible were brought to justice.

Mr Worth noted that the presentation indicated that the forensic laboratories would produce results within 30 days, but the current reality was that it took months or even years. He noted that a large budget was allocated to the forensic laboratories, even though the presentation indicated that the forensic laboratories would be transferred to the Department of Health.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh replied that the forensic science laboratories would always remain a core function of SAPS. It was however the mortuaries that were being transferred to the Department of Health. She explained that the forensic science laboratory finalised 92% of their cases within 35 days, which was the target by which the performance of those laboratories were being monitored. There might of course be the odd case that was not addressed in time, but the laboratories had set themselves that 35-day target.

Mr Worth stated that the border patrol police might be effective in certain towns, but he knew of farms in the Free State, which constantly suffered from theft and damage to property on the Lesotho border perimeter. He expressed his hope that more effective patrolling would soon be implemented.

Divisional Commissioner Lamoer responded that the SAPS borderline patrol for the RSA/Lesotho border was in place. The patrol was very effective and has reported many successes since SAPS took over from the SANDF. The specific case he referred to has since been addressed.

Mr Worth expressed his concern at the recent incidents in which commuters were thrown off trains as well as the numerous crimes that took place on trains, which meant the railway police were not functioning properly. That did not bode well for South Africa’s hosting of the FIFA Soccer World Cup in 2010.

Secondly, he noted the large budget increase and sought clarity on the once off payment of R20 million to Metrorail.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte responded that the R20 million was allocated for infrastructure primarily, and included general equipment and vehicles purchased from Metrorail.

Mr J Le Roux (DA) [Eastern Cape] sought clarity on the SAPS policy that decides where new police stations would be built, and how exactly that prioritisation process worked. He encouraged SAPS to build a police station in the Rosedale area in the Nelson Mandela Metro in the Eastern Cape, because the building was severely dilapidated yet the morale of the police officers was high and they were committed to their jobs.

National Commissioner Selebi agreed that in the past police stations were built in the privileged areas only. The reality of the matter was there were currently 1136 police stations throughout South Africa, and it would take a very long time to undo that and build police stations in areas that needed them. He was aware that people currently had to travel long distances to access a police station. It was hoped that all the role players would play their part.

Mr Le Roux asked whether SAPS had changed its view on the leasing of its buildings instead of building and owning their own premises, in order to save public funds.

The Chair asked SAPS to explain whether it would not be saving costs if it owned some of the buildings it was currently leasing.

Divisional Commissioner Siwundla replied that the State was not making profits on this front. SAPS had been occupying its head office in Pretoria for more than 15 years, and the lease currently cost the State R1,3 million per month. There were also a number of other SAPS buildings that housed other divisions. Only one of the nine provincial divisions was housed at State-owned buildings, including some of the police stations. Most were leased.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte added that there were disadvantages and benefits both to renting buildings and in owning one’s own building. The risks regarding maintenance etc. were, under a rental agreement, carried by the agency the Department rented the building from. However SAPS bore the responsibility of those risks for the buildings it occupied that were owned by the State.

Mr Le Roux sought an indication of the morale of SAPS officers.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that morale was high. SAPS provided training for many police services around the globe, and it aimed to be "number one for that". Countries include Uganda, Rwanda, Sudan and the DRC. There were currently 126 SAPS officers deployed in Daffour in Sudan, and the entire peacekeeping deployment in that country was headed by a South African. In the DRC SAPS was recovering and destroying illicit firearms to ensure that that country’s upcoming elections were safe. Thus the morale within SAPS was strong.

He informed Members that the attacks the media levelled against it did hit some SAPS officials hard. The unfortunate reality was that the media focused on the shortcomings, such as the recent escape of accused from police custody on the way to Pretoria prison. They did not report on the increase in salary of lower level police officers, or the construction of a new police station in a rural area. He explained that SAPS were not afforded the same powers as those of, for example, the Department of Correctional Services when dealing with escapees. The law currently provided that only the Department of Correctional Services was authorised to use firearms to prevent the escape, but the same does not apply to SAPS.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh added that the research conducted on SAPS officials’ salaries indicated that salaries ranked as the fourth most important aspect of their jobs, by SAPS member themselves. Their working conditions, support received and working facilities ranked above their salaries. The resource allocation over the years reflected the consistent effort by SAPS to improve their work facilities, which also contributed to the increased morale of members.

Dr F Van Heerden (FFP) [Free State] sought clarity on the levels of co-operation between SAPS and the Special Investigations Unit (SIU) is tackling organised crime.

Secondly, he took his hat off to the efficiency of some of the detectives within SAPS. There was however the unfortunate problem that some detectives were in the same rank for ten to fifteen years, and they became very depressed about their future prospects and career development. He sought clarity on the incentives it put in place to stimulate very efficient detectives to remain within SAPS, and to stimulate their commitment and morale.

National Commissioner Selebi responded the unfortunate reality was that the posts available for promotion at any given time would never be enough to satisfy all those who qualified for that promotion. SAPS management thus had to choose the best candidate. There would always be quarrelling, as that was an occupational hazard.

The Chair asked SAPS to explain how it was addressing the problem of certain station commissioners who remained loyal to specific political parties within the province, and refused service to people of different political parties. He was referring especially to police stations in KwaZulu-Natal.

National Commissioner Selebi replied that SAPS did not inquire as to the political affiliation of persons when they were recruited, as that "would be a very dangerous game". SAPS officers were united in their following of the prescripts relating to crime prevention as laid down in the Constitution and the SAPS Act. If however there were in fact personnel who discriminated on the grounds of political affiliation, SAPS would take steps to address that. He stated that he would be happy to receive further information on the matter.

The Chair asked SAPS to rate itself on the success of its human resource recruitment policy and its retention policy.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that he has appeared before Ministerial Committees for a number of years, and he always received five out of five. Thus if he were to rate SAPS as a whole he would give it a 4.5 out of 5, to leave room for some mistakes. It was a pity that when SAPS committed mistakes they were "made into mountains", yet when it did good nobody spoke about it.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh added that SAPS’ recruitment strategy was three-pronged: it involved evaluation of academic performance, psychometric testing and the fitness component. Over the last three years SAPS no longer recruited members when they entered the SAPS colleges, because they were not members of the service. They instead bore the status of a trainee. They were only recruited once they satisfied certain competency requirements at the end of the two-year period.

She stated that it was unfortunate that time restraints prevented her from addressed SAPS’ retention strategy in detail, safe to say that it had various options. These included contracting, paying of allowances to address the scarcity of skills. SAPS did thus have a very robust retention policy.

The Chair sought clarity on the status of the domestic violence unit, as the media had reported that it had been disestablished.

National Commissioner Selebi replied that much fuss was made about these units by people who clearly knew very little about policing. The reality was that none of those units was closing down. As he explained earlier, family violence happened within a specific police station area. Thus instead of retaining those units at a provincial level, where they were so far removed from the crimes perpetrated in the specific policing area, the decision was taken to simply relocate the units to police station level. Those units would continue to function just as they were at the moment.

The Chair asked whether SAPS had a unit that offered counselling to its members, as they did very stressful work.

Deputy National Commissioner Singh answered in the affirmative. SAPS had a policy which required members that had been exposed to trauma to undergo compulsory trauma debriefing. It was only in exceptional circumstances in which a member was adamant and refused the debriefing that he signed a latter acknowledging the refusal, but would also have to agree to receive such debriefing outside SAPS. SAPS provided a range of services to its members that included financial planning, stress management, trauma debriefing and suicide prevention. SAPS had also invested greatly over the years in capacitating managers to pick up the tell-tale signs of any atypical behaviour amongst members. The issue was however whether the mentality of SAPS members allowed them to seek out the services provided.

The Chair stated that the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD) was doing a good job, but he was concerned about the following scenario: it appeared that SAPS officers underwent such gruelling questioning and drilling when, in attempting to arrest a person who was resisting arrest, that person sustained an injury. He made it clear that he was not referring to those trigger-happy police officials, but instead to those who exercised the appropriate amount of force and who did it lawfully and by the book. He asked whether SAPS was doing anything to address this imbalance.

National Commissioner Selebi responded that SAPS had a division called Evaluation Services, which was headed by a Divisional Commissioner. It dealt with cases in which corrective measures needed to be taken in any SAPS unit. When it was reported that a SAPS officer had acted improperly that unit would visit the police station and would evaluate the work being done. If anything untoward was discovered, they would address the matter at that police station level.

The ICD was created probably in response to the country’s past, to address the transitional problems inherent in moving away from the South African Police Force as it was formerly known, to the South African Police Service. He stated that it made no sense to him to continue having the ICD in 20 years’ time, or even now. Policemen and policewomen were human beings, and it was unfortunate that they were expected to react differently to situations than all other persons. Furthermore, when SAPS officers did in fact react in the same way that any other person would have reacted, they were then charged with misconduct. This double standard was unacceptable.

SAPS operated in a very rough environment, and its officers had to take measures to protect the lives and property of the citizens of the country. At times, in the protection of lives and property, SAPS officers made ordinary mistakes, but then the judicial process protected the perpetrators of the crime more so than the SAPS officers. This was a big problem for him, and he could continue to fight against it. The problem was that the workings of the police were not understood, least of all by institutions such as the ICD.

The Chair asked SAPS to indicate the amount spent on uniforms.

Divisional Commissioner Schutte replied that approximately R140 million had been spent on uniforms.

Concluding remarks
National Commissioner Selebi thanked the Committee for the valuable interaction, and looked forward to another year of healthy co-operation. He stated that any questions that the delegation had not answered could still be communicated to the Committee in writing. SAPS strictly followed its mandate and regarded all citizens as being equal before the law. SAPS would bring any person who had violated the laws of the country to justice, as none received preferential treatment. He thanked the Committee for the support it gave SAPS, because SAPS came under numerous attacks from members of the public and the media.

Mr Manyosi stated that the Committee was satisfied with the thorough presentation and the answers given by the delegation, which enabled Members to debate effectively on the budget and strategic plan. He believed that SAPS had successfully traversed the transition from being a police force, under the previous regime, to being a police service. It was now aimed at protecting and ensuring the safety of the citizens of South Africa, and was doing a good job. Previous problems such as police brutality were not as commonplace, if they occurred at all. He thanked the National Commissioner of Police and his delegation for the beneficial input.

The meeting was adjourned

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