Deliberations

RULES COMMITTEE (NCOP)
10 FEBRUARY 1998
DELIBERATIONS

MINUTES
The minutes of the previous meeting, 20 August 1997, were handed out. The Chairperson, Mr Lekota, asked if there were any comments on the minutes. There were none and it was voted as read and agreed.

The Chairperson moved to proceed with the next item, which was to establish a Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces. This committee was to enable the NCOP to deal efficiently with the needs of the provinces. This would be achieved by acquainting themselves directly with the circumstances within the provinces - by having "on-the-spot" information. The Chairperson said that it was important that the lawmakers be seen by the public as informing themselves on matters on-the-spot..

A committee member commented that she saw the need for such a committee, but the previous Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces would fail to advise local provincial personnel before visiting provinces. She added that if the present Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces was going to be successful then they had to contact the provincial legislature beforehand, the protocol should be clear and there should be cooperation with the Portfolio Committee.

A committee member remarked that the previous House had not been in favour of that committee and the reason for the dissatisfaction was that the committee would go to the provinces, collect all the relevant grievances but fail to do anything about the grievances. Hence, no tangible results flowed from those visits. The Chairperson wanted to know what had happened to all the collected information when the committee came back from a tour of the provinces. A committee member who had been a member of the previous committee stated that the problem was not caused by the committee's failure to do anything about the information that was gathered in the provinces, but that the problem lay with capacity. After the old Senate transformed to the National Council of Provinces, proper public hearings were held for the first time and members of the NCOP were visible. It was decided that the Chairperson would have the same position on the Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces.

Next on the agenda was a consideration of proposed amendments to the NCOP rules, specifically Rule 124 and 128. The Chairperson asked the Deputy Chairperson, Mr Ngcuka, to introduce it. The Deputy Chairperson began by saying that Bills, referred to in section 76 (3) of the Constitution, must be published in the Government Gazette at least 14 days prior to its introduction according to Rule 124 (1). The Chairperson must, however, be able to do away with this procedure on occasions when the need arises, according to Rule 76 (3). The Deputy Chairperson proposed that Subrule (3) which reads as follows:

(3) Subrule 1 does not apply to a Bill if the delegate or committee introducing the Bill certifies to the satisfaction of the Chairperson that the Bill is an urgent measure and that its delay or the requirement of prior publication may result in prejudice to the general public

be replaced by the following clause:

(3) Subrule (1) does not apply to a Bill if the Chairperson so directs in order to expedite the legislative process.

The Chairperson asked for any objections. The committee members had none.

Moving to Rule 128, the Chairperson said that the committee must be afforded the need to be flexible. That would enable the Chairperson to publish subject to the support of the committee. The Eastern Cape Delegation asked the Chairperson who was responsible for publication if there was a direction to do so. The answer given was the secretary as per section 3 (b) of Rule 128. The Chairperson noted that once a bill was published, the public must have time to respond. Also, the responsible committee would then have to pay for it. The committee said that the budgeting for publication of bills should be an arrangement made with Parliament and the National Council of Provinces.


APPENDIX 1

PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO THE NCOP RULES

Rule 124

Replace subrule (3) with the following subrule:

(3) Subrule (1) does not apply to a Bill if the Chairperson so directs in order to expedite the legislative process.


Rule 128

Add the following subrule:

(3) (a) If a Bill has not been published for public comment, and the committee to which the Bill is referred considers publication of the Bill necessary for the purposes of its enquiry, it may, after consultation with the Chairperson and the person in charge of the Bill, direct that the Bill be published in the Government Gazette or in such other way as the committee may determine.

(b) When a committee has directed that the Bill be published, the Secretary must publish the Bill, together with a notice inviting interested persons and institutions to submit representations on the Bill to the committee before a date determined by the committee and mentioned in the notice.


APPENDIX TWO

MEETING OF NCOP COMMITTEE ON RULES

TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST 1997 (AT 09:15)

PRESENT:
Lekota, Mr M G P (Chairperson)
Ngcuka, Mr B T (Deputy Chairperson)
Lamani, Mrs E (Eastern Cape)
Lebona, Mr H (Free State)
Moosa, Mr M W (Gauteng)
Bhengu, Mr G B (KwaZulu-Natal)
Lubisi, Mr S W (Mpumalanga)
Lubidla, Mrs E N (Northern Cape)
Mushwana, Mr M L (Northern Province)
Surty, Mr M E (North-West)
Marais, Mr P G (Western Cape)
De Ville, Mr J R (Freedom Front)
Selfe, Mr J (Democratic Party)
Makgothi, Mr H G (Chief Whip Majority Party, NCOP)

Special delegates and advisers: Rev M Chabaku (Speaker, Free State), Ms L Zulu (Deputy Speaker, Gauteng), Ms L H Jajula (MPL, Eastern Cape), Mr H L Smith (Eastern Cape Law Adviser), Mrs C M
Cronje (MPL, KwaZulu-Natal), Mr M A Tarr (MPL, KwaZulu-Natal), Mr M J Mbazima (MPL,
Mpumalanga), Mr B J Nobunga (MPL, Mpumalanga), Ms E M Coleman (MPL, Mpumalanga), Mr R
King (MPL, Western Cape) and Mr A J Williams (MPL, Western Cape).

Parliamentary staff members: Mr C Choeu (NCOP Acting Secretary), Mr J Uys (NA Undersecretary),
Mr A Meyer (Law Adviser), Ms D Le Roux (Assistant Law Adviser), Mr J M Lichaba (Office of the
Chairperson), Mr B Matutle (Office of the Chairperson), Ms H Cronje (Office of Deputy Chairperson),
Mr C Maseti (Office of the ANC Chief Whip), Mr H Tshabalala (Table Assistant), Ms L Horn (Table
Assistant), Ms H Kotze (Senior Secretary), Mr A Cishe (NCOP Mpumalanga), Mr A Grinker (NCOP
KwaZulu-Natal), Mr R S Kuapane (NCOP Northern Cape) and Mr M Masiza (NCOP Northern Cape).

Apologies: Dr G W Koornhof (Chief Whip National Party, NCOP) and Adv. G H Grove (Dep. Chief State Law Adviser).

1. MOTION TO ADV GROVE
On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the committee extends its best wishes for a speedy recovery to Adv. Grove.

2. ADOPTION OF AGENDA
On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the Amended Agenda be adopted.

3. MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING HELD 26/3/97 (Item 1)
On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the Minutes be approved.
4. CONTINUED: CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT JOINT RULES (Item 2)
PART 9: JOINT COMMITTEE ON INTERNAL AFFAIRS (Rules 55 - 60)

Rule 55
After discussion, on the motion of Mr Ngcuka,
RESOLVED: 1) That Option 1 be accepted; and
2) that decisions would be taken by the two bodies separately.

PART 10: AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEES (Rules 61 - 64)
and
PART 11: CONFERRING COMMITTEES (Rules 65 - 67)

Rule 64
Mr Smith requested that there should be a distinction between Section 75 and Section 76 matters.

After discussion, on the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: 1) That Subrule 64(b) be amended by adding the words "in the case of Section 75
matters; or"; and
2) that the following new Subrule 64(c) be added: "a majority of the provinces in the case of
Section 76 matters.

PART 12: LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN PARLIAMENT (Rules 68 - 69)

Mr Ngcuka explained that the Leader of Government Business would be responsible for government business in both Houses.

The Chairperson said that he had received a document from the President's Office the previous day in which it had been pointed out that in terms of the transitional provision of Item 9(2) of Schedule 6 of the Constitution, Section 91 was suspended from coming into operation until 30 April 1999.

Mr Ngcuka replied that they did take this into consideration when drafting the Rules. However, the said provision did not affect the Rules as the idea was to create the post of Leader of Government Business in Parliament, and not only in the National Assembly, as was stipulated in the Constitution.

PART 13: JOINT TAGGING MECHANISM (Rules 70 - 76)

Mr Ngcuka explained the proposed Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM). An extensive discussion took place on the matter, inter alia on the proposed involvement of the presiding officers.

After discussion, on the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That Rule 70 remains unchanged.

CHAPTER 3 - JOINT LEGISLATIVE PROCESS

PART 1: CLASSIFICATION OF BILLS (Rules 77 - 80)

Mr Ngcuka explained the issues contained in these Rules.

Rule 78(2)(d)
On the motion of Mr Uys,
RESOLVED: That Subrule 78(2)(d) be amended
1) by deleting the words "no dispensation for late introduction was given" and inserting the words
late introduction was not authorised; and
2) by inserting the words or (e) after "joint rule 31(b).

PART 2: CONSIDERATION OF BILLS BY JOINT COMMITTEES (Rules 81 - 88)

Mr Ngcuka explained the process involved, inter alia that the classification of a Bill from a Section 76 Bill to a Section 75 Bill may be changed if introduced in the National Assembly, but only before the Bill is passed by the National Assembly. If the Bill is introduced in the NCOP, the classification may not be changed from a Section 76 to a Section 75 Bill, because Section 75 Bills may not be introduced in the NCOP.

He pointed out that the matter of allowing for Bills to be considered by joint committees was to ensure that there was no work duplication, especially with regard to public hearings.

PART 3: JOINT BUSINESS, CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BILLS (Rules 89 - 96)

Mr Ngcuka explained that if a constitutional amendment affected a particular province, the amendment had to be referred to the NCOP and then to the province concerned. If the province approved the amendment, it would be referred to the NCOP for approval. If the province did not approve, the Bill would lapse.

Rule 94
Mr Smith suggested that when the Mediation Committee could not agree on a Bill, a report should be published to inform members of the reasons. Mr Ngcuka replied that the mediation results, whether successful or not, would be published in the Announcements & Tabling document.

PART 4: JOINT BUSINESS, SECTION 75 BILLS (Rules 97 - 99)
and
PART 5: JOINT BUSINESS, SECTION 76 BILLS (Rules 100 - 106)

No further discussion took place on these Rules.

PART 6: PROCEDURE FOR MIXED SECTION 75/76 BILLS (Rules 107 - 116)

Mr Ngcuka pointed out that a mixed section 75/76 Bill needed two voting procedures in the NCOP, namely a vote per province on the Bill as a whole, as well as a vote by individual members (per party) on the Bill as a whole.

Procedural complications would arise if the results of the two voting procedures differed. Should this happen, the Bill had to be split into separate section 75 and section 76 Bills which had to be reintroduced.

Note after Rule 116:
Mr Moosa asked if the law advisers would develop Rules to deal with the proposed procedure. Mr
Meyer replied that Rules were not really necessary, as this procedure could be applied in practice.

On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the law advisers consider whether Rules should be drafted to deal with the procedure of introducing split Bills.

PART 7: BILLS REFERRED BACK BY THE PRESIDENT (Rules 117 - 127)

Mr Ngcuka said that the President had discretion in procedural issues but not in substantive issues, and in the latter case had to accept the decision of Parliament.

Rule 118(1)
Mr Meyer asked the committee members whether they thought the word "contested" was appropriate in this context.

After discussion, on the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the word "contested" be replaced with the word "remitted" throughout Part 7 of the Rules, as well as in the definitions contained in Rule 1.

Rule 118(3)
Mr Meyer pointed out that it could happen that the procedural or substantive defects of a Bill could not be corrected.

On the motion of Mr Meyer,
RESOLVED: That the following new Subrule 11 8(31(c) be added:
(c) recommend that the House recind its decision to pass the Bill and to reject the Bill, if it regards the Bill as being procedurally or substantively so defective that it cannot be corrected.

PART 8: TIME LIMITS AND FAST-TRACKING (Rules 128 - 131)

Mr Ngcuka explained these Rules to the committee.

Rule 131
On the motion of Mr Uys,
RESOLVED: That the wording of Subrule 131(1) be changed around as follows: Only the person in
charge of a Bill or, if it is a Bill initiated by the national executive, the Leader of Government
Business, may make a request for fast-tracking of a Bill.

In reply to a question from Mr Lubisi as to how the provinces could become involved, the Chairperson said that this issue would have to be dealt with in the NCOP's own rules.

After further discussion, on the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: 1) That the concept of urgency be introduced in the Rules prior to Rule 131(5); and 2) that the law advisers finalise the wording.

Mr Moosa pointed out that Rule 131(2) did not make provision for the Joint Programme Committee to reject a request for fast-tracking.

On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That Mr Moosa discuss the matter with the law advisers and raise it again later in the meeting.

PART 9: GENERAL MATTERS CONCERNING LEGISLATIVE PROCESS (Rules 132 - 133)

Mr Ngcuka briefly referred to one or two aspects of these Rules. No further discussion took place.

5. REPORT-BACK: DESIGNATION OF USHER OF THE BLACK ROD (Item 3)

Mr Tshabalala, the clerk of the subcommittee, distributed and presented the subcommittee's report. Three terms had been identified for consideration: "Usolubhoko", "Ibika" and "Sebohodi"

The subcommittee recommended that the Ministry of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology be formally approach to run a national competition for a new designation, as well as a new design for the rod, symbolising the distinctive nature of the nine provinces in a united South Africa.

Mr Selfe said that the issues needed wider consultation, further research and more time for consideration. Also, the designations suggested all referred only to the Usher's ceremonial functions. The many other facets of the Usher's office needed to be considered.

A discussion took place on who should organise the competition: the Department, the NCOP or both together as a joint venture. It was agreed that the effect of the competition would be to give wider publicity to the NCOP, and that broader issues than merely the designation of the Usher had to form part of the competition.

On the motion of the Chairperson,
RESOLVED: That the subcommittee should consider and advise on -
1) all the issues that should form part of the competition;
2) the funding of the project, including budgets; and
3) conferring with the NA subcommittee dealing with Parliamentary symbols.

The Chairperson suggested that the designations "Mampodi" (being a leader, group organiser or strategist) and "Modulaqhoa" (being a sentinel or watchman) also be considered.

The meeting adjourned at 14:30.

Mr M G P LEKOTA Mr B T NGCUKA
NCOP CHAIRPERSON DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON

5 September 1997