Debt Collectors Bill [B102b-97] & Correctional Services Bill [B65b-98]: discussion

Meeting report

SECURITY AND JUSTICE SELECT COMMITTEE
2 November 1998
DEBT COLLECTORS BILL [B102B-97] & CORRECTIONAL SERVICES BILL [B65B-98]: DISCUSSION

Documents handed out:
Draft amendments to Debt Collectors Bill [B102B-97]: version 1 (morning and afternoon sessions)
Proposed amendments to the Correctional Services Bill [B65B-98]

SUMMARY
The committee agreed to the Debt Collectors Bill and the Correctional Services Bill, with amendments.

MINUTES
Debt Collectors Bill [B102B-97]
Mr De Lange (law advisor to the Department) went through the draft amendments (version 1). He said that the definition of "debt" had been proposed to cater for those who side-stepped the judicial process.

Point 2, 3 and 4 of the draft amendments dealt with factoring arrangements. The Chairperson, Mr Moosa (ANC, Gauteng) asked law advisor to repeat the reasons for the inclusion of "factoring arrangement". The law advisor said it was aimed at anyone who collected debt on behalf of another company, but was not registered as a debt collector. This would minimise the loopholes which presently existed.

The Chairperson wanted to know how the funds could be tracked, if the debt collectors were not registered. The law advisor suggested that point 1 of the draft amendments be deleted and the new clause (clause 26) would deal with that situation. The committee decided to delete the definition for "debt" in point 1.

The law advisor also informed the committee that the Department had not had sufficient time to consult with the Minister regarding clause 26.

The committee discussed the exemptions clause, trying to incorporate SACOB's grievance for those who collected legitimate debt, such as banks. Mr Radue (NP, Eastern Cape) said that "bona fide banking transactions" was included in the clause.

Mr Pienaar (IFP, Western Cape) interjected and wanted to know what urgency existed to pass the Bill this parliamentary session. The law advisor responded that it was not urgent from the Department's side. However in practice, the problem existed whereby people added 25% to existing debt and that was illegitimate. The Chairperson commented that he did not want the Bill to stand over till the following year as debt had to be regulated.

The law advisor continued by explaining what a factoring arrangement meant. He used the example of Edgars (clothing store). A credit system was arranged with the banks by Edgars. When the clients paid their accounts every month, they paid Edgars, who in turn paid the banks.

The Chairperson wanted a proviso added to the definition of "factoring arrangement" as the definition of "debt" no longer applied. The committee worded the proviso (see draft amendments, version 2).

The committee had no comments on the amendments of Clause 12. The Chairperson proposed adding " … or disapproved" to the end of Clause 12 (1) so that a record could be kept of the applications not approved.

The law advisor said SACOB proposed that "separate" be omitted in Clause 20. The committee thought it was being over-cautious and disregarded the amendment.

The committee was satisfied with the exemption clause.

The Chairperson asked Mr De Lange to consult with the Minister about clause 26. He also had to confer with the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Justice on the amendments made by the select committee. He would have to report back to the committee by 14h00 so that voting could occur.

Correctional Services Bill [B65B-98]
The Chairperson asked Mr Paxton (of the Correctional Services Department) to take the committee through the substantive amendments and omit the technical amendments.

An addition was added to the definition of "disciplinary official".

The substantive amendments made in clause 27 (d) and clause 30 (2) (a) were made by the Department of Health. The committee did not have anything to add to those amendments.

The Chairperson wanted "or" left in Clause 30 (1) as it created a different category. Hence the proposal in the amendments to omit "or" was disregarded by the committee.

The words " and (c)" was to be added after " paragraph (b)" in subsection 3(a). Then the existing 3(a) would become the new subsection (b) and the existing 3(b) would become 3(c).

The Chairperson wanted "except leg irons and handcuffs" to be inserted after "mechanical restraints" so as to avoid reporting every case to the inspecting judge.

Mr Pienaar (IFP, Western Cape) suggested the inclusion of a time period to avoid prisoners from being restrained for a lengthy period. The committee did not agree with him as it could cause unnecessary problems for the officials.

The committee adjourned for lunch at 12h40 and resumed at 14h00.

According to Mr Paxton, clauses 33 and 34 were technical amendments. The insertion of the Extradition Act, 1962 was proposed by the Department of Correctional Services and the committee agreed with it.

Clause 40 was the work clause. If the prisoner was given work, (s)he was compelled to do so, according to the amendments of subsection 40(1).

The new subsection 40(6) was proposed so that prisoners would know that no employee - employer relationship existed. Hence they were unable to join unions.

Mr Paxton informed the committee that the Department of Correctional Services had consulted with the Department of Welfare on the new subsection 43(4). He said they were satisfied with the proposed amendment. The Department of Correctional Services added this amendment so as to avoid the transfer of children from reform schools to prisons via an administrative process.

Mr Pienaar wanted to know the reason clause 44(c) was still in the Bill as it was allowed in subsection (d). The committee decided to delete that subsection.

The Acting Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services joined the meeting. The Chairperson invited him to the meeting so that he would inform the portfolio committee why amendments were made.

The word "service" in Clause 80 was problematic for Mr Pienaar as he said services were not rendered in prison. The word "conduct" was decided on instead of "service"

Clause 104 had grammatical amendments and clauses 107, 108 and 110 were technical amendments.

Mr Surty (ANC, North West) proposed that the insertion of "published" be added after "any" so as to make the subclause consistent with what went before it. Mr Radue suggested that that section be reworded so that it would read more easily.

The insertion of "reward" was suggested in Clause 123(7) by Mr Radue. This was agreed to by Mr Surty.

According to the Chairperson, the new Clause 133, subsection (2) could be open to abuse. Mr Surty responded by saying the phrases "public interest" and "deserving charity" prohibited that abuse from occurring. The clause was deemed adequate.

The committee was dissatisfied with the transitional provision in the new clause 135(1). It meant that those who were sentenced prior to the passing of the Bill, would be subject to the provisions of the Correctional Services Act, 1959. The example given by the Chairperson was if a prisoner was sentenced for 25 years last year, for the next 24 years the prisoner would have to be dealt with under the Act of 1959 .

In certain instances, those who were sentenced after the Bill had been passed, would not be treated as leniently as those who have already been sentenced. Mr Pienaar said that it could lead to a prejudicial situation. A proviso was needed, said the Chairperson. A proviso suggestion was made by Mr Surty which would provide a uniform framework for all prisoners. The committee agreed to it.

The committee voted on the Bill. It was agreed to with amendments. The Bill would be voted on in the plenary session the next day. The Correctional Services Portfolio Committee would meet to look at the amendments made by the select committee.

Debt Collectors Bill [B102B-97]
Returning to the Debt Collectors Bill, Mr De Lange informed the committee that the Chairperson of the Justice Portfolio Committee concurred with the amendments made by the select committee. The Minister of Justice also agreed with the exemptions clause of the proposed amendments.

The only change the committee made to the second draft amendments was changing the word "claim" to "debt" so that it would read, "Provided further that no overdue debt or a claim for which a demand has been made, .."

The committee voted on the Bill. It was agreed to with amendments. This would be voted on in the plenary session the next day, 2 November 1998.