ICD Budget and SAPS Budget: discussion

Meeting report

SAFETY & SECURITY PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
15 March 1999
ICD BUDGET AND SAPS BUDGET: DISCUSSION

Documents handed out:
METF ICD Budget Break-Out

SUMMARY
The Committee continued questioning both the ICD and the SAPS on details of their budget. The Committee Meeting was closed to the public at 12:00 when the SAPS began to highlight their objectives which will be introduced by the Minister on Wednesday.

DETAILED MINUTES
Questions to the ICD
Mr Ndlovu (IFP) opened the question session to the ICD by asking how sharing office space with the SAPS commits the ICD to remaining an independent body? He also asked whether there was co-operation from the provincial ministers with the ICD?

Advocate Melville (Chairperson, ICD) stated that it is problematic sharing office space with SAPS. This occurred in the Free State, due to lack of budget. This situation will be alleviated in the upcoming fiscal year. Also, the ICD is currently sharing personnel with the SAPS. This duality is a priority for ICD in the coming year. Also, they may charge fees to police when using ICD services. Melville believed that the ICD and the commissioners have a good, long-standing relationship, especially within the Free State. Although the ICD and the SAPS butt heads occasionally, but these differences stem from the legislation within structures of the ICD. The ICD would like to write further regulations and statutes to clarify the relationship between the SAPS and ICD.

Mr Chuenyane (NP) asked if people knew and had an understanding of who the ICD is and what duties they perform?

Mr Melville stated that the number of complaints have doubled, so the ICD is getting well-known. The ICD currently has several initatives such as T-Shirts that will be distributed to Members of Parliament for awareness. The impact created is difficult to gauge. Kwazulu-Natal and Northern Province are difficult to reach because of limited resources.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) found it difficult to believe the quoted incidents of accountability of the SAPS to the ICD. He believed that the relationship between the commissioners and the ICD is watered down. Whether or not the relationship is watered-down is up for contention. The difficultly lies in the legislation that the ICD gave investigation to the SAPS. Some investigations go exceptionally well, others are poor and that is a major concern. The ICD is not reaching 90% of cases due to lack of resources. The ICD would like to assume the role of auditor, conducting random checks.

Mr George (ANC) asked if there was a negative connotation being housed in the same building? If it is not inhibiting, then it should not be a problem.

Mr Melville stated that the picture of an independent complaints directorate being housed within the SAPS does not encourage the public and other police to report complaints. The deep-seated suspicions of the SAPS cannot be released overnight. The ICD is working to bridge the gap, but the nerves of the public are still raw.

Mr Ndlovu (ANC) asked if there are no regulations on municipal police? Is the ICD working without regulations currently?

Response: Regulations promulgated with setting up the police force actually broadens ICD jurisdiction to reach municipality compliants. Yet these are impossible to deal with given the current budget. Either funding is increased or the municipalities are charged. Regarding regulations, the ICD operates under Chapter 10 of the SAPS Act. The Department does not feel that the regulations far enough and the Department will push for either a separate act or make amendments to the current act.

Mr Ndlovu (ANC) what does it mean to have an agreement with SAPS?
Mr Melville stated that it is more of a gentleman’s agreement. If it falls through, then the ICD can only whine to the Minister. One needs regulations and statutes.

Mr Chuenyane (NP) what problems are experienced with understaffing? What increases in staff and budget are necessary?
Mr Melville replied that staffing should be at 535 total; however, the ICD can only afford 149. Thus they are running at a quarter of the ICD capacity.

Mr George (ANC) asked what was wrong within the department because the ICD receives only 50% of requested funding?
Mr Jacobs (ICD) stated that the reasons given to the ICD by the Department were insufficient funds from government could not satisfy need. Within the MTEF, certain projects were given priority, and the ICD was not one of them.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) agreed, stating that perhaps funding is reduced because the ICD is only functioning at 10% of capacity. Mr Melville stated that the ICD receives approximately 27,000 cases and are only able to investigate effectively 10% of them. The ICD cannot physically investigate them because there is not enough manpower. If the ICD was given R100 million, Mr Melville guaranteed all cases would be investigated. Currently, the Department prioritizes which cases are important, and focus on those, giving investigative responsibilities to the police department.

Mr Ndlovu (IFP) stated that the staff complement of the ICD was approved. He found it ridiculous that the Department give the ICD 50% of its budget request when they need to fill staff positions. If the ICD cannot receive funding, then they cannot meet their mandate. He said it would be better to shut down, then operate inefficiently.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) echoed the above sentiment, stating that the ICD’s job was to wipe out corruption within the SAPS. If they cannot do that, then why bother? He agreed that the committee needs to pressurize where necessary in order for the ICD to receive proper funding.

Mr Melville stated that committee assistance would be appreciated, and thanked the committee for their time.

Questions to the SAPS
National Commissioner Fivas thanked the committee for their time, and congratulated the Chair on his appointment. He thanked the committee for the continued open and up-front relationship the SAPS and the Portfolio Committee share. He introduced the delegation from the SAPS (M. Bester, C. Kramer, J. Nelson, M. Moorkraft, and J. Burger. Apologies were sent from Lavishia and Morgenetti). He then opened up the floor to questions from committee members on the budget for the upcoming fiscal year.

General Fivas stated a few main points that the SAPS would like the committee to consider:
The Department received a 5.8% increase in allocation
In real terms, this represents no growth
Leaves a R90 million shortfall; the SAPS is confident that it can deal with
Present financial strategy is also reflected in the goals and objectives of the SAPS
Will cut ratio of personnel:operational costs to 75%:25% over the next five years
Currently progressed to reflect +/-78%: +/-22%

Mr George (ANC) asked what is the importance behind moving towards this 75:25 goal? General Fivas stated that in the Rapport newspaper he had read an article that stated the SAPS did not have strategies, goals, or direction. This is an absolutely unfounded statement. The article asserted that this lack of planning is why the SAPS is ineffective in crime-prevention. Statements such as these are extremely alarming, because all goals and such are linked to the MTEF. Last year they rationalized service in practice, increasing the number of police, and police officers are now better equipped.

Mr George (ANC) asked how many police are doing administrative work and how many are being released onto the street? The General stated that 10,000 are still in administrative posts throughout the country. These people will be phased onto the street at a rate of 2-3,000 per year.

Mr Zondo (ANC) asked about transformation. He commented that the delegation sent by the SAPS was very reflective of the dominating white Afrikaner male. He believes that needs to change within the system and asked what measures are being taken. Also, the police plan provides a wide range of objectives and functions. How is this monitored and distributed?

Response: In terms of the deputation, two of his colleagues could not be here, and will be so in the future. Also, the individuals before the members are all extremely competent. Transformation is one of those crucial issues that the Department is actively working to resolve. With the current round of appointments, diversity will be represented throughout. The quotas stated within the civil service will be met. Controlling resources is difficult and is a concern, but with better-trained and equipped officers, this should not be a major concern. Planning on instituting a smart card system within the fleet.

An ANC committee member reiterated what Mr Zondo stated and asked why only men in the deputation? She also asked why the delegation ignored greeting the women in the room and only focused on male members, such as Mr George. She did commend the sick leave and an absenteeism policy instituted, but was disturbed by the lack of women within the SAPS. What is being done about gender equity?

The General stated that the "ignoring" incident that morning was pure oversight. Again, he stated that the delegation is delighted to be here, and no slight against women was intended. He’s a woman’s man. Regarding gender equity, it remains a problem. The issue surrounds the lack of female interest and qualified applications. Of the 640,000 applications received for 2,000 openings, 13% were female, and 4% were qualified. It is not a popular profession among women, and the SAPS is unsure how to alleviate the issue.

Mr Ndlovu (IFP) inquired about the number of security guards the SAPS employs. Where are they trained? How many are working? Who is responsible for these individuals? Does this mean no contract with other security firms?

Response: These security guards will replace police at all government buildings, Parliament, etc. The number of police officers in security guard capacity is 15,000. All will be replaced eventually. Currently, 300 are employed in Pretoria around various government buildings, police headquarters, and other police installations. The next 200 trainees will be placed at Parliament, and parliamentary villages. These people are doing an excellent job, and go through the same screening tests as police officers.

A committee member asked if there were security concerns with hiring civilians for police posts. Also, he said that he believes that women in the Transkei are being discriminated against when applying for police jobs. He asked the commissioner to investigate the claim.

The General stated that he is well aware of possible security breaks, but also stated that these people undergo the same background checks as police officers. Officers in senior administrative posts will not be replaced in order to protect security. With regard to gender discrimination, he is unaware of any in the Transkei and will look into the allegation.

The meeting was then closed to the general public.



SAFETY & SECURITY PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
15 March 1999
ICD BUDGET AND SAPS BUDGET BRIEFING

Documents handed out:
METF ICD Budget Break-Out

SUMMARY
The Committee continued questioning both the ICD and the SAPS on details of their budget. The Committee Meeting was closed to the public at 12:00 when the SAPS began to highlight their objectives which will be introduced by the Minister on Wednesday.

DETAILED MINUTES
Questions to the ICD
Mr Ndlovu (IFP) opened the question session to the ICD by asking how sharing office space with the SAPS commits the ICD to remaining an independent body? He also asked whether there was co-operation from the provincial ministers with the ICD?

Advocate Melville (Chairperson, ICD) stated that it is problematic sharing office space with SAPS. This occurred in the Free State, due to lack of budget. This situation will be alleviated in the upcoming fiscal year. Also, the ICD is currently sharing personnel with the SAPS. This duality is a priority for ICD in the coming year. Also, they may charge fees to police when using ICD services. Melville believed that the ICD and the commissioners have a good, long-standing relationship, especially within the Free State. Although the ICD and the SAPS butt heads occasionally, but these differences stem from the legislation within structures of the ICD. The ICD would like to write further regulations and statutes to clarify the relationship between the SAPS and ICD.

Mr Chuenyane (NP) asked if people knew and had an understanding of who the ICD is and what duties they perform?

Mr Melville stated that the number of complaints have doubled, so the ICD is getting well-known. The ICD currently has several initatives such as T-shirts that will be distributed to Members of Parliament for awareness. The impact created is difficult to gauge. Kwazulu-Natal and Northern Province are difficult to reach because of limited resources.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) found it difficult to believe the quoted incidents of accountability of the SAPS to the ICD. He believed that the relationship between the commissioners and the ICD is watered down.

Response: Whether or not the relationship is watered-down is up for contention. The difficulty lies in the legislation that the ICD give investigation to the SAPS. Some investigations go exceptionally well, others are poor and that is a major concern. The ICD is not reaching 90% of cases due to lack of resources. The ICD would like to assume the role of auditor, conducting random checks.

Mr George (ANC) asked if there was a negative connotation being housed in the same building? If it is not inhibiting, then it should not be a problem.

Mr Melville stated that the picture of an independent complaints directorate being housed within the SAPS does not encourage the public and other police to report complaints. The deep-seated suspicions of the SAPS cannot be released overnight. The ICD is working to bridge the gap, but the nerves of the public are still raw.

Mr Ndlovu (ANC) asked if there are no regulations on municipal police? Is the ICD working without regulations currently?

Response: Regulations promulgated with setting up the police force actually broadens ICD jurisdiction to reach municipality compliants. Yet these are impossible to deal with given the current budget. Either funding is increased or the municipalities are charged. Regarding regulations, the ICD operates under Chapter 10 of the SAPS Act. The Department does not feel that the regulations far enough and the Department will push for either a separate act or make amendments to the current act.

Mr Ndlovu (ANC) what does it mean to have an agreement with SAPS?
Mr Melville stated that it is more of a gentleman’s agreement. If it falls through, then the ICD can only whine to the Minister. One needs regulations and statutes.

Mr Chuenyane (NP) what problems are experienced with understaffing? What increases in staff and budget are necessary?
Mr Melville replied that staffing should be at 535 total; however, the ICD can only afford 149. Thus they are running at a quarter of the ICD capacity.

Mr George (ANC) asked what was wrong within the department because the ICD receives only 50% of requested funding?
Mr Jacobs (ICD) stated that the reasons given to the ICD by the Department were insufficient funds from government could not satisfy need. Within the MTEF, certain projects were given priority, and the ICD was not one of them.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) agreed, stating that perhaps funding is reduced because the ICD is only functioning at 10% of capacity. Mr Melville stated that the ICD receives approximately 27,000 cases and are only able to investigate effectively 10% of them. The ICD cannot physically investigate them because there is not enough manpower. If the ICD was given R100 million, Mr Melville guaranteed all cases would be investigated. Currently, the Department prioritizes which cases are important, and focus on those, giving investigative responsibilities to the police department.

Mr Ndlovu (IFP) stated that the staff complement of the ICD had been approved. He found it ridiculous that the Department give the ICD 50% of its budget request when they need to fill staff positions. If the ICD cannot receive funding, then they cannot meet their mandate. He said it would be better to shut down, then operate inefficiently.

Mr Oliphant (ANC) echoed the above sentiment, stating that the ICD’s job was to wipe out corruption within the SAPS. If they cannot do that, then why bother? He agreed that the committee needs to pressurize where necessary in order for the ICD to receive proper funding.

Mr Melville stated that committee assistance would be appreciated, and thanked the committee for their time.

Questions to the SAPS
National Commissioner Fivas thanked the committee for their time, and congratulated the Chair on his appointment. He thanked the committee for the continued open and up-front relationship the SAPS and the Portfolio Committee share. He introduced the delegation from the SAPS (M. Bester, C. Kramer, J. Nelson, M. Moorkraft, and J. Burger. Apologies were sent from Lavishia and Morgenetti). He then opened up the floor to questions from committee members on the budget for the upcoming fiscal year.

General Fivas stated a few main points that the SAPS would like the committee to consider:
The Department received a 5.8% increase in allocation
In real terms, this represents no growth
Leaves a R90 million shortfall; the SAPS is confident that it can deal with this
Present financial strategy is also reflected in the goals and objectives of the SAPS
Will cut ratio of personnel:operational costs to 75%:25% over the next five years
Currently progressed to reflect +/-78%: +/-22%

Mr George (ANC) asked what is the importance behind moving towards this 75:25 goal? General Fivas stated that in the Rapport newspaper he had read an article that stated the SAPS did not have strategies, goals, or direction. This is an absolutely unfounded statement. The article asserted that this lack of planning is why the SAPS is ineffective in crime-prevention. Statements such as these are extremely alarming, because all goals and such are linked to the MTEF. Last year they rationalized service in practice, increasing the number of police, and police officers are now better equipped.

Mr George (ANC) asked how many police are doing administrative work and how many are being released onto the street? The General stated that 10,000 are still in administrative posts throughout the country. These people will be phased onto the street at a rate of 2-3,000 per year.

Mr Zondo (ANC) asked about transformation. He commented that the delegation sent by the SAPS was very reflective of the dominating white Afrikaner male. He believes that needs to change within the system and asked what measures are being taken. Also, the police plan provides a wide range of objectives and functions. How is this monitored and distributed?

Response: In terms of the deputation, two of his colleagues could not be here, and will be so in the future. Also, the individuals before the members are all extremely competent. Transformation is one of those crucial issues that the Department is actively working to resolve. With the current round of appointments, diversity will be represented throughout. The quotas stated within the civil service will be met. Controlling resources is difficult and is a concern, but with better-trained and equipped officers, this should not be a major concern.

An ANC committee member reiterated what Mr Zondo stated and asked why only men in the deputation? She also asked why the delegation ignored greeting the women in the room and only focused on male members, such as Mr George. She did commend the sick leave and an absenteeism policy instituted, but was disturbed by the lack of women within the SAPS. What is being done about gender equity?

The General stated that the "ignoring" incident that morning was pure oversight. Again, he stated that the delegation is delighted to be here, and no slight against women was intended. He’s a woman’s man. Regarding gender equity, it remains a problem. The issue surrounds the lack of female interest and qualified applications. Of the 640,000 applications received for 2,000 openings, 13% were female, and 4% were qualified. It is not a popular profession among women, and the SAPS is unsure how to alleviate the issue.

Mr Ndlovu (IFP) inquired about the number of security guards the SAPS employs. Where are they trained? How many are working? Who is responsible for these individuals? Does this mean no contract with other security firms?

Response: These security guards will replace police at all government buildings, Parliament, etc. The number of police officers in security guard capacity is 15,000. All will be replaced eventually. Currently, 300 are employed in Pretoria around various government buildings, police headquarters, and other police installations. The next 200 trainees will be placed at Parliament, and parliamentary villages. These people are doing an excellent job, and go through the same screening tests as police officers.

A committee member asked if there were security concerns with hiring civilians for police posts. Also, he said that he believes that women in the Transkei are being discriminated against when applying for police jobs. He asked the commissioner to investigate the claim.

The General stated that he is well aware of possible security breaks, but also stated that these people undergo the same background checks as police officers. Officers in senior administrative posts will not be replaced in order to protect security. With regard to gender discrimination, he is unaware of any in the Transkei and will look into the allegation.

The meeting was then closed to the general public.