Department Turnaround Strategy: Provincial Reportbacks

Home Affairs

08 March 2005
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Meeting report

 

HOME AFFAIRS PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
8 March 2005
DEPARTMENT TURNAROUND STRATEGY: PROVINCIAL REPORTBACKS

Chairperson: Mr H Chauke (ANC)

Documents handed out:
Deputy Minister’s briefing
Western Cape briefing
Eastern Cape briefing
Free State briefing
Northern Cape briefing
KwaZulu-Natal briefing
North West Province briefing
Mpumalanga briefing

SUMMARY
The provincial managers of the Home Affairs Department presented their progress on implementing the turnaround strategy (TAS). The provinces presented the challenges, successes and failures experienced. The Deputy Minister gave political input as to where the national Department would be going in the new financial year. The problems identified by the provinces included corruption; staff capacity and morale; infrastructure and accommodation for Home Affairs offices; and centralisation of activities and information technology (IT) constraints. Provincial managers presented their budgets for the new financial year based on the situation in their provinces.

MINUTES
The Chairperson welcomed the provincial heads of the Department of Home Affairs. The Committee had compiled a document that listed 60 questions that needed answering from the Department. These were based on the strategic plan.

Deputy Minister’s briefing
The Deputy Minister, Mr Malusi Gigaba, gave political input as to where the Department would be going in the new financial year. The two main challenges for the Department were transformation and the TAS. The main priorities for the Department were the citizenship registration campaign, service delivery, leadership and management, people, infrastructure, fighting corruption, and improving the Government Printing Works and the Film and Publications Board.

Director-General’s briefing
Mr Barry Gilder (Outgoing Director General Home Affairs) introduced the delegation and thanked the Committee for the work that had been achieved during his time at Home Affairs. This would be his last address to the Committee.

Provincial Manager of Western Cape briefing
Ms M Mgxashe (Provincial Manager: Western Cape) presented the demographics of Cape Town, the state of Home Affairs offices in the Western Cape, the location of these offices and the demographics of the staff currently employed. She outlined the procurement of staff and the number of posts that had been filled. She explained the activities for the year such as the ID Campaign, the refugee campaign and the response by Home Affairs to the shack fires that were common in the province. She explained the IT situation in the offices and the problems faced as a port of entry. She shared the milestones, achievements and challenges. See presentation.

Discussion
The Chairperson asked for specific needs. Ms Mgxashe said that although all the offices were computerised there was a need to update the computers. Currently Refugee Affairs were upgrading the computers because it had been taking 30 minutes to print one permit.

Mr Swart (ACDP) asked if the Anti-Corruption Bill had been fed down to regional level. Were the offices aware of the provision of the legislation?

Ms Mgxashe said that all the sectors had been given workshops on the Bill. In the offices they also had posters encouraging whistle blowing. Disciplinary action was currently being taken against staff that had engaged in fraudulent activities. The Department had a programme, which emphasised and stressed that fraud was not worth it because the consequences were high.

Mr Swart (DA) asked about officials not having licenses in Oudshoorn. Would the job not require one to have a driver’s license?

Ms Mgxashe said that having a driver’s license was a requirement because of the area. There were many mobile units and service points and an employee would have to go out to provide services.

Mr Swart asked why the main regional hospital in George was connected up.

Ms Mgxashe said that they were in the process of connecting two hospitals, which included George Hospital. All hospitals would be computerised in the new financial year.

Mr Swart asked if George would become a port of entry because of the Women’s World Cup Golf and the President’s cup.

Ms Mgxashe said that only the Minister could give the go ahead for an area to become a port of entry. There was a facility for concessions to be given to special events.

Mr S Vundisa (ANC) asked about the 23 vacancies at the airport.

Ms Mgxashe said that she was aware of the shortage of staff at the airport. The Department was in the process of upgrading the establishment of staff and immigration facilities.

Mr K Hlahla (Deputy Director-General: IS) explained that the Western Cape was the only province with problems regarding the computerisation of hospitals. This was because of the structure of the IT system and because the IT in the province was centralised. The system did not randomly choose hospitals to computerise. A list was compiled of hospitals that were compatible. He clarified that the hospitals that would be connected were from the 13 original hospitals that had been identified. The 13 hospitals would not all be computerised in the new financial year.

The Chairperson asked who controlled IT.

Mr Hlahla explained that a central committee in the Premier’s office controlled IT. The province also did not want to see SETA involved with their computers. The province wanted to use their own companies to computerise the hospitals.

Mr Vundisa asked how the Department was addressing racism because the province was the worst in the country when it came to racism.

Ms Mgxashe said that racism was as widespread as corruption and it was being dealt with on an ongoing basis. The Department had been encouraging the different groups to mix through methods such as team building. She said that it was hard to break the movement of people into their racial groups when they were socialising. She said that racism was prevalent but it was very subtle.

The Chairperson asked Ms Mgxashe how she had dealt with the problem of racism as the Director.

Ms Mgxashe explained the use of team building exercises in the Department. She shared that the Department had won five out of the nine sporting events. The creation of sports teams had helped with relations between workers.

Mr Vundisa asked what the difference was between the Director and the Chief Director. He wanted to know what the speaker was.

Ms Mgxashe said she was a Director.

Mr K Morwamoche (ANC) asked what steps had been taken to implement the TAS.

Mr Morwamoche asked about transformation in the port of entries. Did the regional Director have the power to rectify problems in passports and IDs?

Ms Mgxashe said that the provincial Department had tried to transform hence the racial balance in the demographics of staff.

The Chairperson asked if the province had a plan for transformation. He wanted to know what plans the Director had to transform the Western Cape.

Ms Mgxashe explained that all the provinces had a national plan that was drafted at head office. The budgets had been derived from that.

Ms T Cele (Deputy Director-General: Service Deliver) admitted that there was a backlog in transformation. A meeting had been held two weeks earlier that came up with a plan for transformation for the first time.

The Chairperson felt that they were dealing with the Department like it was 1994. He said that the Department had to be honest about the problems they were facing such as racism and corruption.

Ms Mgxashe said that the Department was dealing with corruption. There had been very bad cases of corruption at the airport. The perpetrators had been prosecuted and the cases were pending.

The Chairperson asked why corruption was dealt with quietly. Corruption had to be exposed and this would improve the relationships with communities and civil society.

Mr M Sibande (ANC) asked about the problems with overtime at the airport and the transport for staff.

Ms Mgxashe admitted that the issue of overtime was serious. She explained that airlines increased flights without taking into consideration the staff at the airport. The province had run out of the overtime budget so they had approached head office to pay the immigration officials, which they did.

Mr Sibande said that the Western Cape province was a considerable size, and this was why there were 71 vacancies at the airport.

Ms Mgxashe explained that the 71 vacancies were part of the revised establishment and would be addressed in the new financial year.

The Chairperson asked if there was a plan and timeframes in place.

Ms Mgxashe said that it took roughly three months to advertise and appoint staff. There was a plan in place.

The Chairperson requested the plan to be submitted to the Committee the next day.

Mr Sibande asked what the problem was with the distribution of IDs.

Mr Sibande asked why only thirteen staff registered for the adult basic education training. The Department had a problem with capacity so why was training not being utilised.

Ms Mgxashe agreed that 13 had enrolled but could not give a reason as to why more staff did not enrol. She said that the staff might be embarrassed.

Mr W Skhosana asked how many of the 9395 marriages verified were fraudulent. He also wanted to know how many customary marriages had registered western marriages.

Ms Mgxashe said that the 9395 marriages came to verify them. Verification involved the investigation of the marriage to ensure authenticity. The queries were then sent to head office for further investigation. She said that most of them were genuine marriages. She added that the Western Cape did not have many cases where people came to register customary marriages.

Mr Skhosana asked about the implementation of TAS regarding staff morale.

Ms Mgxashe described the formation of the sport and recreation club as a mechanism to boost morale. The winning of sporting events was an indication that morale was improving. She said that the reality was that morale would be boosted by an increase in remuneration received.

Mr Skhosana wanted to know how many disabled staff worked for the province.

Ms Mgxashe said that there were two disabled staff members. She said that Department had tried to get disabled employees but they were not applying. She said that they did get one application but the applicant did not qualify.

Ms I Mars (IFP) wanted to know the reasons for the refusal of entry of sixteen passengers. Ms Mgxashe agreed to send a report.

Ms Mars commented that two of the cases were high profile and there were sixteen refusals in January alone.

The Chairperson asked how many offices were visited a year. How many meetings were being held with staff? How did communication work and what was the link with staff?

Ms Mgxashe said the introduction of the ‘Staff Member of the Year’ formed links with the staff. The leadership would go out and visit offices and choose a staff member. The Department in the Western Cape had raised money for orphans, which formed links with staff. The activities boosted morale and allowed the management to interact with the staff.

Ms Cele added that the improvement of basic infrastructure improved the morale of staff. There were issues of basic comfort that had to be taken into account. They had to ensure that offices were in good condition, which would boost morale.

Ms S Kaylan (DA) said that it was not the airlines’ problem if the Department did not have staff to man the extra flights. The Department should have a contingency plan.

Ms Mgxashe said that the increase in flights was astronomical. The Department needed to plan the staff needs for the year and it was difficult to do that when flights were being constantly increased. They had to work with staff for the financial year.

The Chairperson said that the planning should be informed and based on the problems being mentioned. He said that it was clear that there were many problems at the airport that needed addressing. He ruled that the Committee would visit the immigration officials again to get a clearer picture. He noted the Western Cape was a proactive province.

Provincial Manager of Eastern Cape’s briefing
Ms N Lusu (Acting Provincial Manager) presented the state of affairs in the province. She outlined the challenges facing infrastructure, capacity and the campaigns. A budget for the new financial year was presented. See presentation.

Discussion
Ms Kaylan asked about the long drawn out process of applying for permanent residence in that province. Applications were being sent from one office to another and then on to Pretoria with recommendations. Why was there such a backlog?

Ms Lusu said that corrupt officials had been identified regarding permanent residence applications. The matter was currently being dealt with. She said that an immigration committee sat monthly to deal with permanent residence applications.

Mr Swart asked how people knew if their passport or ID had returned and could be collected.

Ms Lusu said that notification was done by sending lists to community structures such as halls and imbizos.

Mr Vundisa asked about the monitoring system of illegal immigrants in the Eastern Cape. Why did the South African Polices Services (SAPS) and not immigration officials monitor them?

Ms Lusu said that under the new National Intelligence Agency (NIA) structures there was a programme put in place to take over the border by Home Affairs. The new NIA structures would assist with monitoring.

Mr Vundisa asked Ms Lusu what steps she had taken as the manager to implement the TAS in Sterkspruit. How was it possible to service a population of over 150 000 people without any mobile units and only two computers, one of which is working?

Ms Lusu said that there was a new proposal to establish a new district office and mobile unit in Sterkspruit, which would alleviate the problems. There were no mobile units at present. She said that all the computer needs for mobile units and the offices had been submitted.

The Chairperson said that TAS emphasised certain things would happen around staff. The new establishment was meant to be TAS so when a new establishment is talked about what is being referred to? Is something new being started? He wanted to know what had been achieved.

Ms Lusu explained that there were no new offices. There would only be offices in the new financial year.

The Chairperson asked how many posts had been filled and he wanted figures.

Ms Lusu said a number had been filled and a report with figures would be submitted tomorrow.

Mr Hlahla said that there was a project to notify people about their passports and IDs through the use of cell phones. Service providers had wider coverage thus sending an sms was possible.

The Chairperson said that in the current state of affairs there was a problem with distribution of IDs. What plans did the Department have to distribute the 13 000 Ids? What was the communication strategy, would community leaders be used?

Ms Lusu said that lists were also given to the Post Office who had to give report backs on where they could deliver. Ward councillors were also used for distribution.

The Chairperson asked what access the Department had to media to distribute.

Ms Lusu said that they had a communication structure that dealt with media.

The Chairperson asked what this meant. Did they or did they not have access to radio?

Ms Lusu said that they had a programme on radio.

The Chairperson asked if the Department initiated programs on radio. Could they make arrangements in the province to use the media?

Ms Lusu said that head office had a national communication strategy and they made all the statements.

Ms Kaylan asked for clarity about the role ward councillors played with ID distribution.

Ms Lusu explained that the Department allowed ward councillors to come and get lists to put them up in community centres.

Mr Morwamoche asked what the Department was doing to address the problem of duplicate IDs.

Ms Lusu said that they had recognised the problem of duplicate IDs. This had resulted in the roll out to the provinces.

Mr Morwamoche asked if it was possible to use laptops in areas that did not have electricity.

Mr Hlahla explained that laptops needed electricity. The problem had to be looked at in total.

The Chairperson asked if there was a plan for the Eastern Cape.

Mr Hlahla said that there was not a plan for the Eastern Cape. They were in the process of working together to find solutions.

The Chairperson said that the Deputy Minister in his presentation had said that all offices would be computerised.

Mr Hlahla said that the list had been received last year. In the new financial year some of the offices would be computerised. In the course of the day he would make the list available to the Committee.

The Chairperson asked about the big corruption problems regarding birth certificates in the Eastern Cape. What was the Department doing about this?

Ms Lusus explained that the corruption surrounding birth certificates had been identified as a problem within Home Affairs, Health and Social Development. There had been collusion between officials. The management of the clusters involved had met to resolve the crisis. The officials involved had been charged.

Mr Sibande commented that there were contradictions in the presentation regarding IDs that had not been corrected. He further commented that the Department had not been able to reach areas around Umtata and King Williams Town. Mr Sibande wanted to know about the uncollected IDs in rural areas and cities.

Ms Lusu said that Port Elizabeth was a metropole. Thus the numbers balanced the applications. There was a programme at hand to ensure IDs were distributed.

Mr Sibande asked about the Special Assignment segment that had exposed false IDs but nothing had been said in the report.

Ms Lusu said that there was a meeting on 19 March with all stakeholders to deal with the problems raised in Special Assignment. Home Affairs had been invited.

Mr Sibande mentioned that on their study tour there were some offices with no toilets, broken windows and infrastructure. Umtata and Qxandule had this problem.

Ms Lusu explained that the RAM project had started in the Umtata regional office. Ndabankulu had just moved offices and in Oxandule the Department had just approved the need for new offices. The Department had been using the prefab structure donated by the Oliver Tambo Municipality.

Mr Skhosana said that he had been given the understanding that Public Service and Administration had travelled to the Eastern Cape. How far had they impacted on the Home Affairs staffing and corruption?

Ms Lusu explained that the DPSA had allocated trainers to the Eastern Cape. All the staff in all the offices went through the training. A counter corruption workshop was run in the Department in December.

The Chairperson asked what the provincial strategic plan was to combat corruption.

Ms Lusu explained that there was a national plan.

The Chairperson asked who monitored the plan.

Ms Lusu explained that the provincial manager was responsible for the monitoring of the plan. She received weekly reports on the progress of the plan.

The Chairperson asked if the reports were then sent to head office. Ms Lusu said yes.

Mr Skhosana wanted to know the timeframes when applying for an ID if one was staying in a city versus one staying in a rural area.

Ms Lusu admitted that applications from the rural areas took much longer than urban areas. For example applications had to be taken to a district office like Umtata and captured there. If there were any queries the application had to be sent back to the rural areas, which were not computerised thus taking more time. Applications from urban areas took roughly eight weeks.

Mr Skhosana wanted to know the role of SETAs in the province.

Ms Lusu said that the Department did not use them before. Now there was a new relationship and they were working together.

The Chairperson observed that there had been a benefit to ordering SETAs and the Department to work together because it seemed to be working except in the Western Cape.

Mr Hlahla said that the provincial office in the Western Cape was engaging with a SETA. The point of contention was the relationship between the SETA and the Premier’s office.

Mr Skhosana wanted to know how long the Department kept IDs before they were returned. What was the collection time stipulated by the Department?

Mr Vundisa wanted to know when the district offices would be opened.

The Chairperson wanted to know how many cars the Department had.

Ms Lusu said the Department had 56 cars.

The Chairperson asked the managers to give an honest and fair reflection of the state of affairs. It was the task of the Portfolio Committee to ensure that there was enough staff and infrastructure to ensure service delivery. Initially the Committee had wanted a separate meeting from the national office. The presentation had to represent the truth.

Provincial Manager of Free State’s briefing
Mr M Mbambo outlined the required budget, the racial structure of staff, the state of the province, the number of offices and the programs that had been started by the Department. See presentation.

Discussion
The Chairperson asked about the state of the offices. Did they have computers and desks?

Mr Mbambo said that all offices and service points were equipped with IT.

The Chairperson asked how deep the corruption problem was.

Mr Mbambo said that they had experienced three computer robberies in the last month.

The Chairperson expressed concern over the theft of Department systems. In the Limpopo the computers stolen had the software to print birth certificates. Could the computers be used to issue documents? He commented that there were five break ins in one office in Limpopo and the Department reinstalled the machines five times. The lack of security was a problem and it was extremely costly.

Mr Mbambo could not say what the computers would be used for. No fraudulent birth certificates had turned up.

The Chairperson was very worried about the thefts. People could open Departments on their own because they had all the software. Had security been looked at?

Mr Mbambo said that after the theft the offices were checked and made secure. Burglar bars and an alarm system had been installed.

The Chairperson added that birth certificates in the current form had no security systems.

Mr Hlahla gave clarity that the 8 hospitals that had been identified were computerised but not all the hospitals in the province. Regarding security there was a programme in place to secure software and physical items. There was a national Chief Director responsible for Security. They were in the process of rolling out biometric access to computers. He said that although a computer was stolen it was not easy to print birth certificates. They used the mainframe approach thus one had to be linked to head office in order to print. The Department did need the assets but they were not worried about birth certificates being printed.

The Chairperson reported that he had been informed that a place in Johannesburg, Hillbrow had been found which printed birth certificates.

Mr Swart asked what training was being given in fraud and corruption. How was the Department handling the problem of corruption?

Mr Swart asked about border control. This was in reference to the allegations by farmers at the border with Lesotho about Lesotho citizens stealing stock.

Mr B Mashile (ANC) asked if officials were working with no pay.

Mr Mbambo explained that some service points had one official. The Department had to cover the area with what was there. If there was a vacant post they redeployed from the main office. Staff that did work over weekends were paid with time off as the budget had run out.

Mr Mashile asked about the office that was being provided by the municipality. Was the arrangement ongoing to pay no rent for the premises? What was the long term plan?

Mr Mbambo said that this was a life long plan as the municipality was a stakeholder in the services that the Department provided.

The Chairperson asked if the offices that had been given by the municipality were computerised.

Mr Mbambo said that they were. Generally accommodation in some areas was a problem. He said that it took time to solve the accommodation problem. He said that the offices in Bloemfontein, Kronstad, Welkom and provincial office all needed to relocate. He said that in Bloemfontein they were leasing a flat and the landlord no longer wanted to lease to Home Affairs. NIA and the Department of Labour had been called in to assist with the problem.

The Chairperson asked what NIA had to do with the relocation of offices. The conditions did not seem good as they were using a flat on the first floor. Added to that the landlord did not want them there.

Mr Mbambo explained that the Department of Public Works (DPW) had signed the contract for the landlord on behalf of the Department. If the Department was not satisfied they had to go back to DPW who would then sit with the stakeholders. In order to get out of the contract the Department had to call in NIA and the Department of Labour and based on the report submitted could then move. He said that the Welkom office was in the process of moving.

Mr Sibande asked how many immigration officials the Free State had considering they were close to the border of Lesotho.

Mr Mbambo said that there were 133 immigration officials in the province that were all trained and understood the Immigration Act.

Mr Sibande wanted to know about the allegations of a large number of people from Lesotho receiving South African IDs and illegally registering at schools and receiving grants.

Mr Mbambo said that there had been 28 cases. Three had been dismissed whilst others were waiting. He said that the police were a serious problem because they withheld information from the Department.

Mr Sibande wanted to know about the number of illegal marriages.

Mr Mbambo said that in order to verify a marriage, declarations were taken from the stakeholders. A written statement was then taken. Investigations were then. In most cases people were married to people without addresses or they were mostly married to foreigners. He said that there was a big problem because although the information was captured it is not possible to get the records.

Mr Sibande asked about people being caught for theft and having IDs yet they were not locals.

Mr Mbambo said that the Department had met with Social Development and SAPS and roadblocks had been set up between South Africa and Lesotho. They were all working together to deal with the problem. Some of the perpetrators had been caught and their IDs had been cancelled. Social Development led the initiative and Home Affairs assisted them. It was a serious problem.

Ms Cele said that Social Services spent a lot on illegal immigrants. Many were coming in and staying in South Africa for a few days. He said that the Department could not solve the problem on their own. He said that they were implementing a system of compiling a list of the perpetrators and tagging them on the computer two days before payday.

The Chairperson said that cleaning up the Population Register was a national priority. There was a clear pattern that most of the thefts were happening in the rural areas because it took much longer to make a report of the theft. This was a serious challenge.

Mr Mbambo said that they had apprehended 57 Lesotho citizens trying to defraud the system and they had been deported.

The Chairperson asked if the suggested amount for the region would be sufficient for all the work that needed to be done. He asked if the Department used the entire budget or if there were rollovers.

Mr Mbambo said that there was no roll over. The money that was reflected was for the relocation. They had used 98% of the budget at the end of the financial year.

The Chairperson asked if the money allocated for the relocation of offices was still there.

Mr Mbambo said that there was no roll over.

Mr Mashile explained that the Department had used the amount so it was reflected on paper but no in rand terms.

The Chairperson clarified that the money allocated for relocation had been used and would have to come from somewhere else.

Mr Mbambo agreed.

The Chairperson asked if there was a budget committee in the province.

Mr Mbambo explained that there was a committee consisting of three people.

The Chairperson ruled that a detailed budget would have to be presented tomorrow.

Ms Mars wanted to know what major role the Free State Legislature played in the ID Campaign.

Mr Mbambo said that they had given a hand by providing people to go door to door to deliver IDs and provided the use of their own vehicles for distribution.

Mr Morwamoche asked how service points were informing people about Home Affairs requirements. Home Affairs officials tended to frustrate the masses.

Mr Mbambo said that they were using traditional leaders and councillors to pass on the information. The Department was also attending imbizos to give out information.

Ms Cele said that the Department was publishing a booklet in all the official languages called the ‘Know your Rights’ campaign. Part one of the booklet dealt with permanent citizens and part two dealt with immigration.

The Chairperson asked how far the Department was with the objectives of TAS.

Mr Mbambo said that in the Free State all the heads of offices met and they in turn explained the TAS to their staff. People did know about it. A physical inspection was done on the ground.

The Chairperson asked what was done. How did they measure if it was a success or not? Was it being implemented and what tool was used?

Mr Mbambo said that he received monthly reports; met with staff monthly and held team building exercises.

The Chairperson asked for three achievements in the last financial year.

Mr Mbambo said the capturing of the 22 people, the additional funds received to acquire furniture for the public’s use, the hand towels and dryers placed in the public toilets and the paint campaign where the Department staff painted the offices.

The Chairperson asked what the transformation plan was for the province.

Mr Mbambo said that two weeks ago the managers had met in Pretoria to discuss transformation. He met with immigration officials to explain their role in transformation. He said that there was a role for all staff members in transformation.

Mr Sibande was concerned that ten years of democracy had passed by and the achievements of TAS were the provision of hand towels and dryers.

The Chairperson referred to the Committee’s annual report and said that Home Affairs were supposed to take the lead in forming a cluster with stakeholders involved in border control. He wanted to know if there was a cluster being coordinated by the Department and how often they met.

Mr Mbambo said that there was and this body met quarterly.

The Chairperson asked again if the budget was sufficient for the year.

Mr Mbambo repeated that the budget was sufficient.

The Chairperson said that most of the offices in the province were mobile units. The province had eleven offices. Was this sufficient?

Mr Mbambo said that the Department was in the process of identifying other offices. This would start in the next financial year.

The Chairperson said that the Committee had to advise on what each Department expected. Details were needed.

Ms Cele said that a proper allocation needed to be done when budgeting to open an office. All costs such as personnel, equipment and general running costs had to be taken into account. The provinces were beginning to look at the total picture. When offices opened they had to be able to run.

Provincial Manager of North West’s briefing
Ms Sethubelo (Provincial Manager: North West) presented their regional offices, infrastructure, challenges, achievements, the required budget and the community relations. See presentation.

Discussion
Mr Morwamoche asked how TAS had impacted on the province in terms of service delivery.

Ms Sethubelo said that little things were part of TAS such as paint jobs, furniture and computerising offices. They all enhanced service delivery.

Mr Skhosana asked if the province had the power and right to hire staff without a go ahead from head office.

Ms Sethubelo said that the province had the right to advertise level one to eight positions. They no longer had to send the recommendation to head office for approval.

Mr Skhosana asked why there was nothing mentioned about corruption. What was the situation with corruption?

Ms Sethubelo said that corruption was a serious problem particularly in the port of entries. They were currently investigating various cases.

Mr Skhosana asked about IDs lying around for over five years in Rustenburg. Where are the IDs now?

Ms Sethubelo had no idea about these IDs, as she was a new appointment. All IDs that had been received were distributed through the engagement of local structures.

Mr Swart asked about clarity regarding the reduction of IDs by half. Was this the number of applications or IDs?

Ms Sethubelo said that the reduction referred to the IDs stored in the office.

Mr Mashile asked about office hours from 0715hrs to 1800hrs. How was the Department handling the payment of overtime?

Ms Sethubelo said that the staff that worked overtime was compensated accordingly.

Mr Mashile asked if they were leasing to finally own. After how many years would they own?

Ms Sethubelo said that many of the leases were in privately owned buildings. There were currently no funds to build offices. The intention was to have their own offices.

The Chairperson asked who was responsible.

Ms Sethubelo said that the DPW was the custodian.

The Chairperson asked if there was a plan.

Ms Sethubelo said that the Department had sent their needs to the DPW. The state of some of the buildings was terrible. This had been reflected in the budget.

The Chairperson said that the information in the report did not present the state of affairs in the North West province. He wanted to know what had happened with the two regions that the province shared with other provinces.

Ms Sethubelo said that the Limpopo office did not have computers so they came to the North West. They were also servicing an area that fell under the Northern Cape.

The Chairperson asked if the budget was in line with the extra services.

Ms Sethubelo said that it was not reflected on the budget although it was under operations. They had informed Gauteng, Northern Cape and Limpopo that they had to assist in service rendering.

Mr Mashile said that they had asked for R61 million in their budget last year but received R54 million. In the new financial year they had asked for R67 million. Were they hopeful that they would receive this amount?

Ms Sethubelo said the province was going to receive R64 million.

Mr Skhosana said that when the Portfolio Committee had done their oversight in Klerksdorp they had gone to where the mobile unit was meant to be only to find that there was no mobile unit. As the representative of the province was she sure if the sixteen mobile units indicated were actually working?

Ms N Mathibela said that the person in charge was not even there when they had visited the office. The office was a mess and the people had been standing for the mobile unit since 05h00hrs. The Committee was being given good reports but the reality on the ground was different.

Ms Sethubelo said that she joined the Department last year so she was not aware of what happened during the visit last year.

The Chairperson asked if the manager had information that the mobile unit went to Joberton.

Ms Sethubelo said that she had a list that indicated that it did go to Joberton. It was important to go where the people were. In the long term the aim was to have a permanent service point to cater for the community.

The Chairperson said that he had received information informing him that the mobile unit always arrived late in that area. Sometimes the mobile unit did not arrive.

Ms Sethubelo said that she received reports and visited the offices. Sometimes there were transport problems and the mobile units could not go out. There were also security concerns, which added to delays.

The Chairperson said that a meeting had to be held with management and the office because the service they were giving was terrible. The Committee needed to know how many mobile units there were and what their schedule was. He said that the North West was very rural and people used original documents. Some of the mobile units did not have photocopy machines, which caused more problems for the people. The managers had to explain what exactly was in a mobile unit.

The meeting was adjourned.

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