Safety & Security: Provincial Concerns

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Meeting report

SAFETY AND SECURITY: PROVINCIAL CONCERNS

SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE
17 May 2000
SAFETY AND SECURITY: PROVINCIAL CONCERNS

Chairperson: Mr JL Mahlangu

SUMMARY
Problematic issues in the provinces were raised by members in preparation for the budget debate on 24 May.

Problems around safety and security included shortages regarding personal, vehicles and other equipment amounting to 928 million rand, the need for specific goals and targets around eradicating crime, the increasing incidences of hijackings, car thefts, border corruption, illegal immigration, robberies and vigilante terrorism. The dissatisfaction of police reservists, the unacceptable treatment of rape victims at police offices, and the widespread involvement of the police in crime were also major concerns.

The Chairperson said that experience showed that once public officials showed up at police stations, and raised issue on behalf of communities, the police tended to work better. There was a programme being worked on where MPs would show up at police stations unannounced.

With regard to Correctional Services, the overcrowding of prisons, the need for more prisons and juvenile rehabilitation centres, the need for investigation into unwarranted sick leave taken by warders, the involvement of police and warders in jail breaks, and the corruption in prisons were burning issues.

The "bottlenecks" of the criminal justice system relating to the shortage and inexperience of prosecutors and magistrates was highlighted. The lack of liaison between investigating officers and prosecutors as well as the absence of a coordinated identification system which incorporated fingerprinting led to an inefficient criminal justice system. The possibility of community courts, which followed a more inquisitorial or mediatory approach, was raised.


MINUTES
The Chairperson said that the purpose of the meeting was to prepare for the budget debate on 24 May which aimed to be a Security Cluster meeting including the Ministries and Departments of Safety and Security, Justice and Correctional Services. Issues which had proven to be problematic in the provinces needed to be raised by members. One could not call a meeting of this nature if there were not definite issues to be raised.

Issues on Safety and Security
Mr P Matthee (NNP, KZN) said that the Minister had provided answers in respect of each province as to what the shortages were regarding personnel, vehicles and other equipment. To rectify this, an amount of R928 million was required. The Minister had said that they intended to rectify the situation over a period of three to five years. He wanted to know why this situation could not be rectified immediately. If the problem needed attention now then it was unacceptable to say that the money could not be borrowed or obtained somehow and therefore one had to wait for up to five years.

Mr Matthee also wanted to know what their aims were regarding crime. According to the monthly crime statistics it was seen that with some crimes there were decreases, others stayed constant, whilst some went up quite rapidly. Was the idea of Ministers and Departments in this cluster to stabilise crime, keep the status quo of fluctuating levels or were there specific goals. Were there targets such as aiming to reduce crime by 50% in four year's time for example? Did one know what the cost implications of this was and did one have a plan of action? He got the impression that crime was simply being combated on an ad hoc basis.

The Chair said that perhaps it had to be asked of Government whether they had achieved the objectives set by the National Crime Prevention Strategy.

Mr Matthee said that this could be done but he was tired of hearing generalisations. One had to get down to specifics. It was easy to talk about general objectives. Without specifics there would be no progress on effective prevention and combating of crime. In the White Paper for Safety and Security it was stated that there would be a statutory process to determine fixed goals linked to time frames and the budget to match this. This was supposed to have been done as a matter of urgency. He wanted to know what had been done about this up to now since it had been some time since the White Paper had been adopted.

Mr T Taabe (ANC; Mpumalanga) said that there was a high incidence of cases where stolen cars simply passed to Mozambique through border fences. He also spoke of places such as Nongoma and Ulundi which were no-go areas for certain political parties. People in these areas, some from national parliament and others from provincial legislatures, were preaching the gospel of killing people. If someone was a member of a certain organisation, they were killed often in broad daylight. There was no hesitation to do this, yet arrests were not taking place. The mayor of Nongoma, who had allegedly committed much crime in the area had been arrested but was given bail without being charged.

Mr T Setona (ANC, Free State) said that there was no doubt that police were involved with crime syndicates and cross-border crime. At certain border gates one suspected that there were corrupt syndicates of police who worked with criminals to transport drugs, for instance, between countries.

Another problem was the need for attitude changes and a mindset shift in police personal at all levels. The infrastructure had to be redesigned to accommodate this attitude change. For example in his constituency, there was one charge office room which had to serve everyone. There was no privacy when for example a rape victim's statement was taken. No wonder people did not want to report such crimes.

Furthermore the Police's code of conduct was an issue. In his home town a senior policeman had allegedly raped a fifteen year old. He was not suspended but was still on duty. What message was being sent to the public?

Mr Taabe raised the issue of a vigilante group in Mpumalanga that was terrorising people on a daily basis. This was going on unabated and he said that there was an elite unit needed to combat this. He asked what the SAPS had done in this regard. He said that when farmers were attacked, these became high profile cases and special units had been deployed to deal with these problems. In the case of farm workers however, nothing was done and attacks were continuing.

On the issue of stolen cars passing through border gates, many people on the ground knew who the masterminds behind these thefts were, however SAPS did not do much about following up leads. Security at some border posts was lax. He wanted to know what strategy was in place to tighten the security at border posts. He said that in one incident in his area in February, in one night fourteen cars were stolen near the border and most of them managed to pass through the border. He agreed that there must be an element of police involvement in the criminal activity, which had to be brought to the Minister's attention.

He said that there were many cases where police sat at home when they had to be out combating crime. There were also incidents of illegal immigrants being brought to be used as cheap labour on farms. He had witnessed a suspicious incident involving a convoy of cars while driving on a national road in his province. He reported the incident to a number of authorities and decided to follow the convoy for more than an hour. He later learnt that they had been stopped at a roadblock and that some of the occupants had been illegal immigrants.

Ms E Lubidla (ANC, Northern Cape) said that the primary cause of crime in the Northern Cape was liquor and many stabbings occurred as a result of fighting amongst intoxicated persons. Car theft and drug syndicates from Gauteng were infiltrating the Northern Cape and using local people there to sell drugs. She said that the combating of violent crime and crime against women and children had to be prioritised.

Ms Nkuna (ANC, Northern Province) said in terms of the crime trends in the Northern Province, robbery had increased dramatically between 1994 and 1999. There have been steady increases of rape and attempted rape cases. Since 1995 more than 200 incidents of rape are recorded per month. Assaults, housebreaking incidents, motor vehicle theft, illegal possession of firearms and vehicle hijacking had also increased.

In terms of crime prevention, there were Community Police Forums, police reservists, sector policing and the rural protection plan, the "Crime Buster" Campaign, and the introduction of the program "Effective Detective" to develop members to improve the quality of investigation and the taking of statements. There was also highway patrol and victim support programs.

Mr Taabe said that Community Police Forums, through legislation, had to be given more teeth. In many cases these Community Police Forums were not respected and simply not recognised. These forums had to be up and running and increased funding had to be looked at.

The Chair believed that female rape victims being interviewed by male policemen was problematic. He had personal reservations about this, given the fact that men could conduct a very "rough" and insensitive interview. At one police station he had visited, he had enquired as to where women were interviewed and he was told that everyone was interviewed in the same area. After he had identified himself, it was said that they were working on a separate venue! It was clear that some police stations were not doing a very good job. His experience showed that once public officials showed up at police stations, and raised issue on behalf of communities, the police tended to work better. There was a programme being worked on where MPs would show up at police stations unannounced.

He raised the issue of poaching which was "mostly by police" within game parks and nature reserves. A mechanism to deal with this issue had to be found. He suggested that the department set up a hotline since MPs were confronted with real issues on the ground but when they went to the local police, matters did not get anywhere because police were involved. There had to be a mechanism to report serious incidents straight to the department.

Ms Lubidla said that she had gone to a police station where women who had come to lodge complaints were actually laughed at and made fools of.

Mr Matthee said that the programme of showing up unannounced at police stations should apply to courts and prisons as well.

Mr Matthee said that there was much unhappiness among reservists whose applications for Police College were often overlooked. He had been approached by the Reservists Committee in Kwazulu Natal who informed him that they would be having a picket at national level. Many of them had been rendering a service for a long period without any remuneration and they did not get recognition for this when new members were enlisted to go to College. They felt that at least thy should get preference in this regard because they had a track record in terms of voluntary work.

He also raised the implementation of the new Section 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act [which limits police officers' powers to use force in effecting an arrest]. He had written to the Secretariat for Safety and Security and asked that this section not be implemented. Thus far it had not been implemented and he felt that this had to be referred back to Parliament so that it could be looked at afresh. He understood that somewhere someone was looking at this and he wanted to know what the position was.

Finally he wanted to know whether there was a budget for the implementation of the Firearms Control Bill.

Prince B Zulu (ANC, KZN) wanted to know what the procedure was for accepting a reservist as a policeman.

Senior Superintendent D Garnett said that Portfolio Committee members had already received permits for random visits of police stations. Since the Select Committee dealt with three departments, there had to be consultation with the three relevant departments on the issuing of one permit for committee members which would cover all three departments. Such a permit would be solely to establish the bona fides of the person carrying it. There would be no additional powers or authorisations. It simply established that one was a Member of Parliament and a member of a specific committee having oversight responsibilities over the departments.

Issues On Correctional Services
Mr Matthee said that he had read the previous day that prisons were overcrowded by 165% and some by 200%. He wanted to know exactly what the position was in each province as far as the prisons were concerned. He asked what the plan of action was to rectify this situation. He understood that there were cases where, if someone was sentenced to six months imprisonment in a court, that person did not even get booked into a prison, but simply walked out of the court since there was no place for him in the prisons. He said that this situation was making a joke of the Criminal Justice System.

The plan of action had to determine how many prisons were needed, where they would be built, whether it would actually solve the problem and time frames and whether there was a budget for this. Once again there had to be specifics and not generalisation.

He wondered what South Africa must look like to the outside world when the audit report of the Department of Correctional Services stated that the department was totally out of control. He wanted to know on what basis this was said and what was the plan of action to rectify this.

Ms Lubidla said that warders and police were helping prisoners to escape. Police assisted them when they came from the cells to go to trial. Warders were paid to allow to run businesses inside the prisons where drugs and liquor were sold. There was thus lots of corruption going on inside prisons.

Mr Taabe raised the issue of juvenile inmates and the problems created by overcrowding. Because of overcrowding the likelihood of juveniles being granted bail irrespective of the seriousness of the crimes they were charged with was high. This impacted on the credibility of the criminal justice system itself. In his constituency, the problems of juveniles in a local prison had been rife. Some years ago it had been decided to build a Juvenile Rehabilitation Centre. Funds were set aside, tenders were invited but the project was unilaterally put on hold by Finance. He wanted to know the reasons for this.

Secondly he felt that an investigation needed to look at sick leave taken by prison warders. There was a justified perception that prison warders were being paid for being off sick. He had interacted with these persons in social circles and it was clear that there were persons who went to work five days a month but were getting fully paid because they had arrangements with certain medical doctors for the issuing of medical certificates. This was unacceptable.

Ms Nkuna also commented on the number of rogue prison warders. Mr Setona did not know what the capacity was like in prisons but the rate of prison escapes was unacceptable. The department had to find a way to deal with this. Mr Taabe noted newspaper reports about of the department continuing to pay senior prison officials who had been suspended early in 1999. There had thus far been no departmental disciplinary hearings into these cases. This too had to be addressed.

The Chair raised the issue of coordination (which overlapped with Justice) when prisoners were brought to court by the prison authorities. The van had to be back at the prison by four 'o clock which meant in some cases that the van had to leave early where there were long distances. In some cases they arrived at the courts at ten and there was very little time to get cases heard. This was problematic.

Issues relating to Justice
Mr Mathee said the average experience of prosecutors and magistrates in district and regional courts had to be looked at as well as shortages. He said that this was one of the "bottlenecks" in the criminal justice system. He enquired as to the extent of this "bottleneck" and to the average awaiting trial period of the accused. The backlogs and shortages had to be identified. He also wanted to know about the reports in the newspapers about widespread corruption in the Department of Justice.

Ms Nkuna felt that something had to be done about the ease with which some rapists got bail.

Mr L Lever (DP North West) said that in his province, one of the bottlenecks experienced in criminal matters was that there was very little or no liaison between police and justice in that very often the investigating officer was not available to the prosecutor. In some jurisdictions a liaison officer had been appointed who could at least make sure that the dockets, prisoners and witnesses were present. He wanted to know whether the Department had looked at the effectiveness of this and asked whether there were plans to implement this nationally.

Secondly he felt that many suspected criminals were operating in several areas under different aliases and were getting bail even though they were suspects for similar crimes in different areas. If the automated finger printing system was linked to the whole identification system in the criminal justice system, bail would not be granted since it would be discovered that a person who used five different names when charged in different courts was in fact one and the same person.

Mr Taabe raised the issue of community assessors. He wanted to know what the effectiveness and shortcomings were of these assessors.

Ms Lubidla wanted to know whether police were kept up to date with relevant legislation since she had experience where police officers did not know of certain laws. She also wanted the reasons for the proposed closure by the Justice Department of certain provincial offices.

The possibility of community courts for family and juvenile cases, which followed a more inquisitorial or mediatory approach, was raised.

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