SAPS Budget: hearings

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Police

05 April 2000
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Meeting Summary

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Meeting report

 

SAFETY AND SECURITY PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
5 April 2000
BUDGET VOTE PRESENTATIONS

Relevant Documents:
Text copies of presentations by:
The Banking Council of South Africa
Technikon SA (Institute for Human Rights and Criminal Justice Studies)
Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD)
Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union (POPCRU)
South African Police Union (SAPU)
South African Police Services (SAPS) [e-mail info@pmg.org.za]

SUMMARY
There were presentations from each of the stakeholders, followed by discussions, in the following order: SAPS, ICD, Banking Council, SAPU, POPCRU and Technikon SA. The focus of the SAPS presentation was whether there is money available, whether it will be spent and what the priorities of the SAPS are. The ICD’s presentation focussed mainly on the lack of capacity and funds, but also on its focus and approach. The Banking Council’s presentation addressed the budget and looked at how the banking industry is affected by crime and how it is co-operating with the police. Both SAPU and POPCRU doubted whether the amount allocated in the budget would be sufficient. Technikon SA highlighted its concerns regarding the budget.

MINUTES
The Chair, Mr M George (ANC), welcomed the members and those who were to deliver presentations.

South African Police Service
The SAPS representatives were Deputy National Commissioner Eloff, Deputy Deputy National Commissioner Eloff, Deputy Commissioners Cramer and Hlela, and Chief Director Schutte.

Mr Eloff remarked by way of introduction that a serious impact on crime, particularly violent crime, would be made in the forthcoming year. He noted that the SAPS was happy with the budget as formulated. As a result of being sensitive to the departments of justice and correctional services, there has not been a request for extensive additional funding for personnel. However, more money would be requested in the following year.

Mr Cramer noted that the SAPS has indicated that part of this year’s strategy is to identify police stations as "crime combating zones". There would also be a focus on crime syndicates with a more integrated approach. Regarding organisational strategy, he stated that good service delivery must be concentrated upon. There is also a need to improve discipline – each station commander should be responsible for discipline. He stated that there was also a need for incentives.

Mr Cramer added that the intention is not to make policing more expensive but rather to develop "smarter policing". He emphasised the priorities of service delivery and an improvement in discipline. He cited the example of R40 million having been spent on vehicles as a result of accidents and suchlike. He stated that if discipline is improved to reduce these expenses, this money could be better spent.

He concluded by saying that if he was asked whether the budget is sufficient to achieve what is required, he would answer in the affirmative. He stated that there were three core principles – the three "E"s – effectiveness, efficiency and economy. He stated the SAPS was aware of the continuous pressure on government for additional funding and that the SAPS would accordingly face its challenges with the funding it has.

Chief Director Schutte’s Presentation on behalf of the SAPS
Mr Schutte remarked that he would begin with a refreshment of how the budget data is categorised. It is presented in two ways, namely according to programmes and according to standard items. There are also centres of financial responsibility. No one office is able to do everything in terms of line function activities. Organisational units are entrusted with the task of submitting estimates and accounting for expenditure against each estimate. The organisational units are situated at provincial level and even at station level, depending on capacity and appropriation.

He remarked that what would be of interest to the members would be whether there is money available, whether it will be spent and what the priorities of the SAPS are. This would be the focus of the presentation.

He observed that there are three broad areas of crime (organised crime, serious and violent crime and crimes against women and children), which are the strategic focus areas where money will primarily be spent. The appropriation of money to these areas would be looked at. On the page of the presentation entitled "programme structure vis a vis operational strategic focus" the left column lists the programme structure (in terms of which money is allocated) and the right column lists the strategic focus areas, which will be addressed in a multi-disciplinary manner.

The page entitled "MTEF Allocations" lists anticipated expenditure in a number of areas. He noted that "other expenditure" includes equipment, personnel transfers etc. He noted further that "capital works" does not include rental. The total MTEF allocation less capital works expenditure for 2000/2001 amounts to R15.352 billion.

Mr Schutte noted that the Committee had requested that the presentation focus on the forthcoming financial year and therefore other years would be looked at only in some cases for the purpose of comparison.

Regarding the personnel vs operating expenditure, he noted that the split had been brought down from 82%:18% to 78%:22%. He noted that the intention was to bring this ratio down in 1999/2000, but because of Polmed, for example, this could not be done. He remarked, however, that the SAPS was well on track with its personnel programme and that in future the ratio would be stabilised at 78:22.

Mr Schutte drew the members’ attention to some comparative figures regarding the number of citizens per police officer and the number of police personnel per 100 000 citizens. South Africa has 408 citizens per police official while, amongst others, Finland has 650 and the USA has 400. South Africa has 245 police officials per 100 000 citizens while Finland has 154 and the USA has 250. He remarked that these figures are, however, simply indicators and do not establish a norm.

Mr Schutte drew the members’ attention to the page entitled "Vote 28: SA Police Service: Overall situation". He noted that this was the core of the presentation. He pointed out that the amount allocated (less capital works, which is a Public Works Department concern) has increased from R14.045 billion to R15.352 billion – an increase of 9.3%. However, if the improvement of conditions of service expenditure and the adjustment estimates (for example election expenses) are added to the 1999/2000 figure, the increase amounts to 5.7%.

Regarding the pie chart on the page entitled "Estimate of expenditure per programme…", Mr Schutte drew the members’ attention to the reduction of the proportion of administration expenditure in relation to total expenditure. He noted that most of the funds would be spent on crime prevention. He stated that some might be of the view that administration may be utilising too great a proportion of expenditure. He noted, however, that the costs of Polmed have been incorporated under administration whereas these costs could have been spread across the programmes.

Mr Schutte noted that on the page entitled "Details of main programmes and activities" there is a breakdown of the main programmes into sub-programmes. He stated that these could be broken down further into elements and even further into activities. Regarding item 1.7 (medical support), he noted that a full explanation of Polmed would be provided at a later stage. The substantial increase in terms of information technology is primarily the result of the anticipated costs of updating the firearms register.

The increase in expenditure on crime prevention (item 2.2) is largely due to equipment and new personnel and there is a new category of expenditure – that of detective services development.

Mr Schutte addressed the breakdown of the crime prevention programme and moved on to the standard items, which include goods and services needed to achieve the SAPS’s aims in terms of its programme structure. The increase in personnel expenditure has largely been a result of the improvement in conditions of service.

The cost drivers per standard item were addressed – these list the main expenses within each of the standard items. He pointed out that "Inventories" used to be referred to as "Store and live stock". Under the standard item of equipment, Mr Schutte noted that the increased expenditure on vehicles is as a result of an attempt to improve the SAPSs vehicle fleet, particularly regarding soft body vehicles.

Regarding the Polmed scheme, he stated that there were three important points. Firstly, Polmed has been registered in terms of the Medical Scheme Act with effect from 1 November 1999. Secondly, members’ contributions and the limitation on benefits have been introduced in order to make the scheme more affordable. Thirdly, there has been agreement in the Sectoral Bargaining Council and the allocation of R1.5 billion for the financial year 2000/01. He referred to the previous year’s expenses and noted that an additional R 511 million had to be found to pay outstanding accounts and to pay Polmed in advance and that these expenses were a once-off payment. He drew attention to the figure indicating that there are 120 855 main members and 188 873 beneficiaries of the scheme.

Mr Schutte looked briefly at the apportioning methodology. He concluded by noting that he had a few transparencies that would not be presented and that these were not important.

Discussion
The Chair asked what the SAPS’s deficit was from the previous year and how this would impact on the forthcoming year.

Mr Schutte responded, saying that the Polmed situation and the normal rollover of creditors needed to be taken into account in this regard. Furthermore, there are certain calculations that have not yet been made as a result of the books only recently having been closed. Consequently, the exact figures are not known but the estimated deficit is in the region of R260 million. He noted that if liquidity is worked out in terms of the whole allocation, the deficit amounts to 1.5-1.8% of the total vote and that this was not a worry. He added that even if outstanding invoices are included there is still not a problem. Mr Cramer clarified that there was no real deficit but that there are simply creditors who have not yet been paid.

Mr M Pheko (PAC) asked three questions: Firstly, regarding the reference to syndicates, he asked whether the police knew who these are and where they are situated. Secondly, regarding incentives and remuneration, he asked whether members of the public would be beneficiaries. Thirdly, he asked what "Human Resources Management" meant in the context.

Dr B Geldenhuis (NNP) remarked that the money allocated to cover the new Firearms Control Act (R50 million) would cover only the existing backlog of the firearms register.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) questioned the R5 million allocated to social crime prevention. He asked why, if the SAPS regard prevention as important, so little money had been allocated to prevention and so much allocated to response. Secondly, regarding border protection, he asked why only firearms and vehicles were mentioned and not matters such as illegal immigrants. Thirdly, he asked how the R40 million spent on vehicle repairs and settling civil claims would be halved.

Adv A Gaum (NNP) also asked three questions: Firstly, what was happening regarding the improvement of working conditions? Secondly, whether the R120 million anticipated over the next three years in terms of the Firearms Control Act would be utilised exclusively for the firearms register. Thirdly, he questioned whether the cost of social crime prevention should not be borne by the welfare department instead.

Deputy Commissioner Eloff responded to Mr Pheko’s question regarding syndicates. He stated that the SAPS was aware of where they are situated. The problem in this regard is with the definition of "syndicate". An example of the questions that arise regarding the definition is whether two pickpockets working together can be regarded as a syndicate.

Regarding Rev Meshoe’s question concerning crime prevention. He stated the problem here was with the term. The SAPS does regard crime prevention as important, but what may be regarded as "response" is treated in most cases by the SAPS as "prevention". Road blocks etc. are treated as prevention measures. Regarding Adv Gaum’s question, he stated that some of the social crime prevention measures are the responsibility of welfare. He stated that there are some external funds that have been provided by outside donors and that the SAPS would ask that this money go to welfare.

Mr Cramer responded to Mr Pheko’s question regarding whether members of the public will be the beneficiaries of incentives. He noted that private citizens, or informers, who provide the police with information, would be rewarded in some cases. As far as members of the police are concerned, he stated that the SAPS would go as far as possible to improve efficiency by providing incentives.

Regarding Mr Pheko’s question concerning the meaning of "Human Resource Management", Mr Schutte responded that this includes all personnel, but specifically training and also management.

Regarding the questions pertaining to the Firearms Control Act and the firearms register, Mr Schutte noted that the R57 million was the total amount for the register, of which R22 million is for personnel expenses (300 people). He noted that the register would be mechanised which will make it more efficient. Furthermore the approach is to phase in the new measures. He stated that he could not comment on the expenditure targets. He noted, however, that the people at the firearms registry had indicated that the funds allocated would be sufficient and that he was of the same view.

He responded to Rev Meshoe’s question concerning border protection by indicating that vehicles and firearms are the main themes but that illegal immigrants were also a priority.

Regarding Adv Gaum’s question concerning the improvement of conditions of service, he noted that an amount had been calculated in the vote and that the SAPS was negotiating with the treasury concerning what they have allocated.

Mr Cramer addressed Rev Meshoe’s question concerning the reduction of the R40 million spend on civil claims etc. He stated that there is disciplinary restructuring, which is an attempt at improving discipline. There is an attempt at engendering an attitude of ownership over the property of the police. He stated, however, that it must be acknowledged that policing is a high-risk activity.

The Chair asked whether, in order to reduce corruption, there were incentives for officers who were not corrupt. He remarked that many police stations were in a bad state of repair and that officers were working under terrible conditions. He stated that this leads to low morale. He asked how the SAPS could ensure that the Department of Public Works (PWD) does what it should. He also noted that there were problems with providing uniforms. He asked how far this had been addressed in the budget. He also asked whether anything was being done about the poor allocation of vehicles, for example, where police officials in the Transkei were provided with VW Chiccos, which are not suited to the terrain.

Mr V Ndlovu (IFP) asked who is responsible for monitoring those who are given that portion of the money allocated to the Public Works Department. He asked what the position was regarding officers using police vehicles for private use. He also asked why the SAPS wanted to centralise protection services.

Mr I Vadi (ANC) asked whether the local government elections had been budgeted for. Secondly, he asked what control measures were in place concerning Polmed. Thirdly, he asked what improvements had been made regarding absenteeism.

Adv Gaum noted that it seemed as if an increase in personnel was not a priority and whether it could therefore be assumed that the increase in personnel expenditure would mean an improvement in service.

Ms J Sosibo asked whether there have been funds allocated for rewards. Mr R Zondo (ANC) asked whether a CEO had been appointed under the Public Finance Management Act pertaining to local government finance.

Gen C Viljoen (FF) noted that there was no mention of rural protection under operational programmes. He asked what was being done about farm attacks and that there could be the perception that there is no political will to address this situation.

The Chair raised the issue of employing citizens to perform administrative functions. He asked how much money had been allocated for this purpose.

Deputy Commissioner Eloff responded to the Chair’s question regarding incentives for officers who are not corrupt. He stated that there would be no payment to officers who provide information regarding corruption, as it is their duty to report criminal activity.

The Chair stated that this was not his question. His question was rather whether officers who "go the extra mile" are rewarded. The Deputy Commissioner responded by noting that demonstrations of commitment would be taken into account in terms of officers’ future career development.

Deputy Commissioner Hlela responded to the questions regarding public works by noting that capital expenditure allocated to the PWD is kept by the PWD and that the PWD has many clients. He stated that there would be a meeting with the PWD on 18 April to discuss the problems.

The Chair noted that the question from Mr Ndlovu pertained to who from the police monitors what the PWD does. Mr Ndlovu asked whether there were contracts between the SAPS and the PWD that set out what needed to be done. He asked whether, if there is no contract, it could be ensured that projects are undertaken on time.

Mr Hlela answered that the solution was to make divisions (police stations) responsible for the work that they require to be done.

The Chair asked whether there was a programme that set out which projects had to be completed by which dates or whether the SAPS is at the mercy of the PWD.

Mr Hlela stated that he gets a list of priorities from the provinces. This list comes to his division and then the matter is discussed with the PWD. He repeated that the problems are to be discussed with the PWD.

Mr Ndlovu commented that he did not think that this was a good answer. He added that, if there are no contracts between the departments, the problems would remain.

The Chair indicated that he was not satisfied with Mr Hlela’s answers and that a follow-up discussion is required to address this matter separately. He remarked that the building and improvement of police stations was important.

Mr Hlela responded to the Chair’s questions regarding uniforms. He stated that this is addressed in the budget. Regarding Mr Ndlovu’s question concerning the private use of vehicles, he stated that this was not allowed. The misuse of vehicles has prompted a task team to investigate and discover misuse. The task team is at a national level and will visit the provinces at random.

The Chair repeated his question regarding the poor allocation of vehicles. Mr Hlela stated that the orders for vehicles come from area or provincial commissioners. The Chair commented that this seems to indicate that nothing can be done about the problem.

Regarding Adv Gaum’s question concerning improving conditions of service, Mr Schutte responded that approximately 2400 new personnel would be appointed this year. However, the SAPS intends to maintain the 78:22% split between personnel and operating expenditure.

He noted, regarding Ms Sosibo’s question, that money has been budgeted for rewards. Instructions to the provinces have been distributed to the provinces for comment. Regarding Mr Zondo’s question concerning the PFMA Act, he noted that a CEO has been appointed and that the implementation phase is envisaged.

He responded to Gen Viljoen’s question concerning rural protection by saying that this falls under violent crimes and special investigations. He stated that the programmes mentioned in the budget are broad and that the rural plan is an element of a sub-programme.

Addressing Mr Vadi’s question regarding local government elections, Mr Shutte stated that money has been set aside but that it is not certain whether this is enough as it has not yet been established how many polling booths there will be.

The Chair repeated his question regarding the employment of civilians. Mr Schutte responded that the budget caters for the employment of 600 civilians to administrative positions. Deputy Comissioner Eloff stated that approximately 2400 new personnel will be appointed and that it is intended that 600 of these will be security guards and 600 will be civilians for administrative functions. This would result in 1200 current police officers being released to perform crime prevention functions.

Mr M Booi (ANC) congratulated the SAPS for the improvements in the budget over the years. The Chair remarked that this year’s presentation was far better than in previous years. He stated that it must be ensured that better financial management systems are put in place. He noted that one of the outstanding issues related to the PWD matter. He noted that the first part of doing a good job was having enjoyable working conditions and that having proper police stations is important in encouraging police officials to do their job. He thanked the SAPS representatives for their presentation.

Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD) Presentation
The chair, in welcoming the ICD delegation, remarked that the ICD was an important unit in respect of safety and security and was crucial in making the SAPS effective. He introduced the delegates: Chief Director M Kekana, Adv K McKenzie, Mr E Jacobs (Director of Finance), Mr Riaz Saloojee and Mr T Ntsani.

Mr Kekana apologised for the absence of the executive chair of the ICD, Adv Melville, who is on leave.

He noted that the activities of the ICD compare favourably with those in other countries, for example the UK. There has been an increase in complaints from previous year, particularly charges of assault. However, there has been no corresponding increase in the investigative capacity of the ICD. Each situation is consequently not being given the attention it deserves. An added difficulty is that police officials are in a good position to cover up situations. Therefore, in order to avoid compromising investigations, there is a need to reprioritise the complaints that are dealt with.

Mr Kekana presented further information as set out in the document handed to the Committee. He drew attention to item 2.3.2.2 in Chapter 2 of the document, which relates to the capacity of the ICD to fulfil its mandate and noted that the ICD’s ability to deliver will soon be compromised as its workload increases – there are insufficient personnel to carry out monitoring.

He noted that there are five offences that are the focus of the ICD’s strategic objectives. These are corruption; racism in the police; crimes against children; femicide, rape and spousal abuse; and use of force in terms of s 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act.

To illustrate the lack of financial support for the ICD, Mr Kekana noted that the SAPS is spending R2.7 million per month on salaries of suspended police officers. This translates to R32.8 million per year and amounts to R7.8 million more than the budget of the ICD for the 2000/01 financial year. He added that the ICD has reported its lack of capacity in previous years.

Adv McKenzie then addressed the issue of research and development (item 2.4, page 9). The motivation for the ICD’s involvement in research comes from the need to look at the underlying causes for police misconduct. A draft green paper has been submitted to the Minister for his consideration. Regarding item 2.5.2.2, some of the funding for this research has come from donors. She pointed out that a workshop would be held on 14 April to debate the development of a strategy to reduce the risk of deaths in custody as a result of police action.

She noted, in connection with investigated crimes of femicide, that the ICD wants to get involved in investigating crimes committed with police weapons and that funding is required for this. Regarding escapes from police custody, this can only be researched in Gauteng due to financial constraints. She noted that the mandate of the ICD in terms of the Domestic Violence Act was simply placed upon the ICD without there being involvement of the ICD in the early stages of discussing the Act.

Mr Ntsani noted that the marketing of the ICD and its communication is dealt with in Chapter 3. He said that the ICD was aware of the need to market itself within the SAPS as well as to the public. Posters have been printed in all 11 official languages and he emphasised that the marketing strategy of the ICD needed to be comprehensive. He noted that the donor community is assisting in carrying out a survey regarding public awareness of the ICD. There will also be public announcements to raise awareness.

Mr Saloojee noted that the vision of the ICD is to assist the SAPS in transformation within the scope of the Constitution. He noted that the ICD had an obligatory mandate to investigate deaths in police custody as a result of police action. He said that while the intention was not to use resource constraints as a crutch, there are only 39 investigators for the entire country. He noted that there is a need to invest in training investigators.

He suggested that the ICD could possibly send a delegation with the Scorpions when they go overseas for training. He noted that the ICD has a presence in all the provinces, except for three, although the ICD is legislatively required to have a presence in each province. Further the ICD must monitor the cases that are referred back to the SAPS for investigation very carefully.

Mr Jacobs returned to the budgetary constraints on the ICD. He noted that while the budget allocation may have increased, this is largely due to an increase in salary expenditure. The operational budget has actually been reduced.

He said that there was a problem with accommodating the ICD in the Free State and Mpumalanga and that there are no funds to afford the amount suggested by the Department of Public Works for accommodation. The NIA has indicated that, for security reasons, the ICD should have its own accommodation. R3.5 million is required.

He concluded that while it is acknowledged that government has specific economic policies and priorities, the mandate of the ICD would be difficult to fulfil if it is not given the necessary funds. Mr Kekana pointed out that the money given by external donors is given for a specific purpose and cannot be used to fulfil the ICD’s broader mandate.

Discussion
Adv Gaum asked what the correlation was between the R32 million spend on suspended police salaries and the budget of the ICD. He asked what the ICD wants in terms of funding.

Mr Ndlovu asked whether the ICD was really independent. He noted that there seem to be a large number of deaths in police custody but that very few cases are referred. He asked what is meant by the police conduct referred to as "neglecting duty".

Mr O Kgauwe (ANC) asked where the figure of R32 million in suspended police officers’ salary comes from. Mr Ndlovu asked whether the ICD gets its external funding from outside the country.

The Chair stated that he had read that the ICD requires R5.3 million and asked why, presuming that this money had been asked for, it had not been given.

Mr Kekana responded to Adv Gaum’s question concerning the correlation between suspended officers’ salary payments and the ICD’s budget. He noted that the payments are a result of suspension due to misconduct on the part of the police. This is a waste of money that could be avoided by funding the ICD and its research into the causes of misconduct. This would also result in fewer civil claims against the police.

Regarding Mr Ndlovu’s question concerning the independence of the ICD, Mr Kekana noted that the ICD had the power only to investigate matters and to make recommendations. If an offence by the police is discovered, the ICD must approach the Director of Public Prosecutions. He said that the ICD regards itself as independent of political influence, but ultimately the ICD does not have the power to prosecute and cannot dictate to the Director of Public Prosecutions whether or not there should be a prosecution.

Regarding Mr Ndlovu’s observation that only a few cases of death are referred, Mr Kekana said that the deaths are recorded for a period and it is only the cases where investigations by the ICD have been completed that are referred. Investigations take time and there are investigations underway that cannot be recorded as having been referred. This accounts for the difference in the figures.

Regarding the "neglect of duty", Mr Kekana noted that it was a form of misconduct for the police to neglect their duties and these cases are referred to the ICD for investigation.

Mr Jacobs said that the R32 million figure in suspended officers’ salary payments came from a report in "the Star" newspaper and that this was subsequently confirmed by auditors. He repeated that if this money were given to the ICD, there would be a reduction in wastage. Regarding the money that the ICD requires, Mr Jacobs stated that the workload and the capacity of the ICD has been taken into account and it has been determined that R5.3 million is indeed what the ICD requires. He remarked that the ICD had indicated its needs early but that its was asked to limit or decrease its budget.

Mr Kekana pointed out that outside donors do not provide the ICD with cash. They can only provide, for example, transport and accommodation for people attending workshops. Cash can only be acquired from the treasury.

Ms A Van Wyk (UDM) noted that, amongst other, the treasury was sceptical that the ICD was making a difference. She asked whether the ICD could quantify the difference it would make. She asked further how the disciplinary structure change within the police would affect the ICD.

Mr Booi asked whether the ICD’s problem was that its business plans were centralised with the result that no one else in the Directorate knows what needs to be achieved and what needs financing.

Mr Kekana responded to Ms Van Wyk’s question by saying that the ICD regards itself as making a meaningful difference. Initiatives have been taken and the ICD wants to have a substantial impact on rectifying systems problems within the police.

Ms McKenzie noted that the ICD is beginning to align itself with international approaches to civilian oversight of the police. In the UK, for example, there is no investigation but rather only monitoring of police investigations. Instead of putting resources into investigation, more could be done on research into the root causes of misconduct. This is the direction in which the ICD is moving, but she noted that the ICD does not have a large research capacity. This means that the ICD has to use outside researchers. She stated that it is not possible to investigate each case and that it was a better approach to look at the bigger picture and to establish why, for example, police officers are arriving at work drunk.

The Chair placed a number of issues before the Committee. Firstly, there is the question of whether the ICD is wanted. If it is wanted, it must be enabled to work. Secondly, corruption within the police must be dealt with. Thirdly, the ICD must define its own programme and role but should not be investigating trivial issues. He concluded that the issue of the ICD cannot be left as it is and that it might be necessary to call back the ICD. He thanked the representatives for their presentation.

The Banking Council of South Africa Presentation
Mr B Tucker stated that the banking industry is a strategic industry and that while the banks are not responsible for law and order, they do have a responsibility to co-operate with the police.

He stated that the main problems affecting banks are robberies and cash-in-transit heists. The levels of these have been contained but they remain unacceptably high. ATM crime is also a major concern with incidents becoming increasingly violent. He noted that it was difficult to place ATM crimes on the same level of priority as rape but noted that with the number of incidents at present, public confidence is being eroded. Regarding white collar crime, Mr Tucker stated that, while it is not certain how much money has been lost (conservative estimates are around R1 billion), the levels are high.

He stated that there has been consultation with the police and that strategies are in place and are working. He stated that the relationship with SBV is a model but that relationships with other security companies are not as good. He stated that there have been discussions with the justice department regarding "fast track" courts. He emphasised that the Council had the highest respect for the SAPS.

He noted that among the other initiatives in place are the special commercial courts programme and the possibility of privately funded prosecutions, although this must be approached cautiously. He noted that the Council commends the SAP’s client-orientated approach whereby the banks are treated as clients of the police.

He noted that the dilemma of the banks is that they only experience the symptoms of the problems in the SAPS. He stated that the SAPS needs effective and efficient use of the resources available and which will most likely not increase. He stated that it was clear that progress had been made in certain areas, particularly the proportion of personnel expenditure.

Mr Tucker noted that there are, however, areas where there can be further improvement including integrating financial management with resource and project management and with line management. He stated that there needs to be a sense of urgency regarding the need for management to be more efficient. He added that many specific anti-crime drives are not sustainable, that many SAPS staff are demoralised, that there is skills dilution and that the integrity of the data on which the SAPS relies is sometimes suspect. Furthermore, there are a large number of arrests, but few convictions and many escapes.

He stated that what the banks need is a safe and secure environment in which to conduct business and he proposed that the Committee should give the SAPS as much support as possible to ensure the efficient management of the great resources of the SAPS.

Discussion
Mr Zondo commented that the presentation set out a number of challenges for the police. Mr Kgauwe asked what could be done about micro-lenders using the ATM cards of borrowers to withdraw money from their accounts.

Mr Tucker responded that systems need to be created which would make it unnecessary to give cards and card numbers to the micro-lenders.

South African Police Union Presentation
The Chair welcomed the delegates from SAPU (Mr A Miller, chief negotiator, Ms C van Niekerk and Mr I Arno) and indicated that SAPU is a key stakeholder.

Mr Miller stated that the SAPS currently has a shortage of 37 000 employees. This means that fewer people must increasingly supply a service to a growing number of citizens. In terms of the allocation of funds in the budget, he indicated that this took place without consultation with organised labour. He noted that the allocation includes an unspecified amount for "Improvements in Conditions of Service". He asked where these improvements were to be negotiated.

He stated that on the face of it, the budget looks good – there appears to be a 9.3% increase. There are, however, hidden costs including costs for the Minister and Deputy Minister, for RDP projects, for capital works which should be in the public works allocation (R104 million) and for improvements in conditions of service. After these costs are taken into account, there is only an increase of 5.7% and after inflation is taken into account there is no real increase at all.

Mr Miller expressed reservations about the SAPS’s view that it "can come out" on this budget. He noted that costs for the implementation of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act have not been fully considered, nor has the issue of the 40 000 employees who are eligible for promotion. The cost of these promotions would amount to R600 million. He stated that these have not been costed for in the budget and that these funds have not been asked for. He stated that the SAPS should have asked for an additional R2.6 billion.

He noted that a question had been asked before regarding what should be done with "good cops". He noted that there is provision for rewards within the police service, but the money to pay these rewards has not been asked for.

Mr Miller stated that there was a need to improve working conditions. Such improvements would improve morale. He noted, however, that the improvement of working conditions also includes the payment of overtime and that this has not been budgeted for.

He concluded by saying that there were some good points in the budget and that SAPU had some cost-cutting proposals: Firstly, as court orderlies are a Justice Department concern, they should not be on the Safety and Security payroll. Secondly, mortuary staff are a Health Department concern. Finally, the costs of the protection of Deputy Ministers and local government officials should not be borne by Safety and Security.

Discussion
Mr Ndlovu asked whether salary negotiations should take place at a sectoral or bargaining council level. He asked that SAPU elaborate on the issue of the 40 000 employees who are eligible for promotion. He asked why the suggestion that court orderlies should be on the Justice payroll had only been made at this stage. He also asked why SAPU is of the view that Deputy Ministers and local government officials should not be protected.

Mr Booi remarked that the SAPS had done a commendable job regarding the preparation of the budget. He stated that the outline of personnel expenses is broad and would not mention all the details including overtime expenses.

Mr Kgauwe remarked that while SAPU claims to represent a majority of the members of the SAPS, the delegation was exclusively white. He asked how far the Union had come regarding transformation.

Regarding SAPU’s approach to negotiating, Ms van Wyk noted that there was a two-prong strategy. Firstly, there are direct discussions with the Minister and National Commissioner. Secondly, the Union conducts studies into other police services in order to make comparisons regarding remuneration etc.

Regarding promotions, Mr Miller confirmed that there are indeed 40 000 members who are eligible for promotion. They have undergone the necessary training etc. He repeated that these promotions would cost R600 million. He stated that promotion usually takes place on the day that it becomes due. He stated that it would cost a further R600 million in back pay if members were to be paid from the date at which they became eligible for promotion. He stated, however, that the Union would not ask for this.

Regarding the racial composition of SAPU and its leadership, Mr Miller stated that 65% of the union’s membership is "non-white". He stated that transformation is one of SAPU’s most important issues. He noted that transformation had been slow in the past, but that under the new Minister it has been much quicker. He stated that the police are being regarded more and more as the protectors of human rights. He remarked that the Union did not hold the view that Deputy Ministers and local government officials should not be protected, but did believe that Safety and Security should not have to bear these costs.

The Chair indicated that there were a number of issues that needed to be returned to, one of which is the management of the SAPS, particularly regarding the R600 million for promotions. Further issues to be discussed with the unions include whether there is a need for two unions (SAPU and POPCRU) and what the unions are doing about corruption amongst their members.

Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union (POPCRU) Presentation
The POPCRU representative, Mr B Motjetsi, expressed doubts that the 9% increase in the budget would be enough to take care of all police business for the year. He noted that the reduction in the proportional allocation of funds to crime prevention and operational responses is regrettable. He expressed the view that the increase in the allocation of funds to detective services and crime intelligence is too low.

Regarding the increase in the allocation of funding to administration, he noted that the highest paid employees are those in administration and that this does not demonstrate a commitment to the reduction of crime.

He repeated that the increase in the budget is not sufficient, especially in light of the fact that the police service is operating at a shortage of 37 755 employees. He stated that POPCRU recommends that the programmes be budgeted for according to their priority and that crime prevention should be the first priority, followed by detective services and then administration.

In conclusion, Mr Motjetsi stated that POPCRU condemned corruption in the police service and that those engaged in corruption should be stopped and prosecuted. He stated that POPCRU has been fighting for transformation and promotions since before 1994. He noted, however, that transformation was still in a stage of infancy.

Discussion
Adv Gaum observed that between POPCRU and SAPU, the majority of police service employees are represented. He asked for POPCRU’s comments on six issues raised by SAPU: Firstly, has the promotion of 40 000 members not been costed for? Secondly, has the recruitment of new members not been costed for? Thirdly, does POPCRU agree that the Justice Department should pay court orderlies and that the Department of Health should pay mortuary staff? Fourthly, does POPCRU agree that after the extraordinary costs are taken into account there is no real increase in the budget? Fifthly, is there agreement on where negotiations are to take place? And sixthly, is there agreement on outsourcing i.e. employing civilians do perform administrative functions?

Mr Kgauwe stated that this was not a fair question. Mr Ndlovu agreed. He said that it was not fair to ask POPCRU to compare itself to SAPU as the two unions have different agendas. Regarding the view that administrative staff should be reduced, he asked whether these staff members should be shifted into other programmes. He also asked for a clearer definition of "in-service training".

The Chair noted that it seemed as if POPCRU was unhappy because it had not been consulted during the budget preparations and that it felt that the budget did not demonstrate a strong enough commitment to dealing with crime.

Mr Motjetsi noted that what is meant by the budget not demonstrating a commitment to dealing with crime was in reference to certain standardised items. He stated that administration should support the other two functions (crime prevention and detective services).

Regarding Mr Ndlovu’s question concerning in-service training, he noted that the SAPS is moving from a policing structure in an autocratic state to one in a democratic state. However, many police who served under the previous government are still employed in the service. He stated that there needs to be a concerted effort to train these people to be service providers in the community.

Regarding the reduction of administrative staff, Mr Motjetsi stated that in terms of POPCRU’s calculations, 15% of personnel (18 000 members) are involved in administration. POPCRU’s proposal is that this should be reduced by 5% and these people should be involved in crime prevention and detective services.

The Chair noted that Mr Motjetsi was not obliged to answer Adv Gaum’s questions. Mr Motjetsi nevertheless addressed the issue of the 40000 members due for promotion. He stated that POPCRU was of the view that affirmative action should be prioritised over promotion. He remarked that while management may be of the view that the budget is sufficient, POPCRU does not think it will be. Regarding outsourcing, he stated that outsourcing is acceptable if it does not pertain to core functions and that departments should take care of their direct responsibilities. Regarding where negotiations should take place, he said that POPCRU subscribes to central bargaining.

The Chair stopped Mr Motjetsi saying that this was not a budget issue. He said that there were a number of issues here that could not be discussed in the absence of management. He noted again that the issue of corruption amongst union members must be discussed at a future meeting. He thanked Mr Motjetsi for his presentation.

Technikon SA (Institute for Human Rights and Criminal Justice Studies) Presentation
The Chair welcomed the delegation, Dr A Minnaar and Ms D Mistry, and noted that they would be approaching matters more objectively from an outside perspective.

Dr Minnaar thanked the Chair and the Committee for the opportunity to give an opinion on the budget. He informed the Committee that the Institute is a research group, which looks at the criminal justice system from the police through to the courts.

A primary criticism of the budget is that there is insufficient detail to make informed budgetary decisions. An associated criticism is that it appears that the decisions are taken at the highest level in general terms and without consultation. The Institute suggests that a budget specialist be employed by the SAPS to assist in drawing up a detailed budget.

Ms Mistry took the Committee through the rest of the document handed out. Among the further criticisms are the concern that there is an imbalance in the proportion of the budget allocated to personnel costs, that there is no specific line item which makes funding available for recruitment, that the training budget is "woefully" inadequate and that there is no provision for research and development.

Regarding the ICD budget, there is an insufficient increase in the amount allocated for training investigators, the budget for investigations has been decreased, the amount budgeted for civil claims has decreased, there is no provision for witness protection programmes and there is a perception that the ICD lacks independence.

Discussion
Mr Ndlovu asked whether it would not be possible for SAPS management and Technikon SA representatives to sit down together to discuss these issues. Mr Minnaar commented that there is a movement worldwide to have detailed budgets so that informed decisions can be made. Mr Ndlovu stated that there needs to be a day set aside for the unions, management and the technikon to get together at the same time.

The Chair agreed with this suggestion. He noted that it must also be decided whether the ICD is needed. He expressed his thanks to everyone present including the representatives from Technikon SA.


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