Draft 7th Parliament Strategic Plan; Division Managers on their portfolios scope, mandate, budget and challenges

Meeting report

Chairperson Ndhlovu opened the meeting by welcoming everyone including the Secretary to the National Assembly and the Secretary to Parliament (STP).

Apologies for the meeting were tabled and adopted.

The agenda for the meeting was considered and adopted.

Draft Strategic Plan for the Seventh Parliament

Mr Xolile George, STP, presented the draft strategy to the Committee. It was noted that within six months after an election of the National Assembly, the Accounting Officer must prepare and present to the Executive Authority a draft strategic plan for Parliament’s administration. The strategic plan for Parliament’s administration must:

• cover the following five years or other period determined by Parliament;
• specify the priorities of Parliament’s administration for the period of the plan;
• include objectives and outcomes for each programme of Parliament;
• include multi-year projections of all revenue and expenditure; and
• include performance measures and indicators for assessing the administration’s performance in implementing the strategic plan.

Purpose of the draft strategic plan

• This draft strategic plan is based on the policy priorities developed during the two Houses of Parliament planning sessions.
• The Strategic Plan for Parliament sets the long-term impact and desired five-year outcome.
• The implementation of the impact and outcome is achieved through the annual performance plan and associated operational plans and budgets.
• Operational plans will focus on the activities and inputs necessary to deliver outputs.

Members were taken through an overview of the outcomes approach for the Seventh Parliament and a 10-year global economic and risk outlook. Looking at the global parliamentary environment, it was noted that: “Public pressure on parliaments is greater than ever before. In many parts of the world, there are fundamental questions about the effectiveness of parliaments in holding government accountable. (IPU 2024)”.

During the 6th Parliament, the focus of Parliament was on strengthening oversight and improving public involvement processes. Parliament was also confronted with two extraordinary events that shaped the work of the term:

• The first was the Covid-19 pandemic-related lockdowns in 2020 and 2021.
• The second happened in January 2022, when large parts of the National Assembly and adjacent buildings were damaged in a fire incident.

The focus of the 7th term is being shaped by various trends, including:

• a shift in global power and governance, and heightened geo-political tensions,
• the new political landscape following the 2024 elections,
• low levels of economic growth and a decreasing budget,
• challenges of rising crime levels, gender-based violence, unemployment, poverty and inequality,
• the recommendations made by the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, and other reports commissioned by Parliament.
• ongoing lack of permanent facilities for the National Assembly.

Members were taken through the priorities of the Seventh Parliament, including its vision, mission and values. The presentation then detailed the strategic plan and performance information:

1. Outcome One: Improved Performance and Effectiveness

• Openness and transparency in a democratic society is achieved through freely available information, especially that of government. Parliament must organise and manage the available information to advance knowledge and empower Members. There are two indicators selected to achieve improved performance:
• Information availability. Implementing an integrated information management system requires various elements such as information systems, database development, monitoring and evaluation systems, analytical tools and digital delivery systems.
• Empowered and skilled employees. Engaged employees aligned with institutional shared values. The aim is to foster a high-performance culture that is stakeholder-centric and dedicated to service excellence.

2. Outcome Two: Increased Responsiveness and Accountability of the Executive

• In the 7th Term, Parliament aims to improve existing mechanisms and oversight interventions for effective governance and accountability by enforcing consequence management measures for Executive non-responsiveness and non-compliance.
• For these instruments to achieve the desired results, the House resolutions will have to be targeted, specific, well-informed and executable
• Each of the three indicators aims to move Parliament forward from the current challenges related to accountability enforcement.
• Parliament must establish standards, and processes to ensure that House resolutions are monitored, tracked and implemented.

3. Outcome Three: Meaningful Involvement by Citizens

• Improvements for public participation include:
  • Ensure public education standards and processes are revised, and processes implemented. Investment into the availability of languages for all public hearings and consultation processes, including feedback mechanisms.
  • Parliament will repurpose and reposition constituency offices, define operational mechanisms and capacitation, and define desired outcomes for offices and resources accordingly.
  • Stakeholder management improvement – engaging partners for public participation
  • Training and Re-skilling of public participation resources and partners (especially at provinces)
  • Innovative public education programmes

4. Outcome Four: Increased Performance and Capacity of Members

• The capacity of Members is critical in the performance of constitutional functions.
• Investing in the continued learning environment will strengthen Parliament and inject creativity into resolving the country's complex challenges.

5. Outcome Five: Impactful Law-making

• Parliament has identified many improvements to be implemented to ensure that laws are made in line with constitutional prescripts.
• Establishing mechanisms for proactively identifying legislative needs based on emerging societal issues.
• Creating dedicated capacity within Parliament to conduct post-legislative reviews.
• Establishing mechanisms to feed insights from post-legislative scrutiny into the legislative process.

The presentation outlined the executive strategies for the above outcomes, including:

• a digital transformation strategy to leverage technology and ensure a modern institution and knowledge management
• a human capital strategy to ensure capacity-building of MPs and staff, and bring about a learning organisation;
• a facilities management strategy to ensure a professional and safe working environment and space;
• a funding model and strategy to ensure resource optimisation and financial sustainability; and
• a change management strategy to align organisational culture and values with the strategy.

The draft strategy will undergo further consultations. See the attached file for the next steps.

See attached presentation for further details

It was noted that the document presented and what members received differed in length and details. Members asked that this be addressed.

National Assembly Table

Mr Masibulele Xaso, Secretary to the National Assembly, presented an overview of the NA. The NA Table is there to:

• Facilitate effective proceedings of the House by providing procedural advice and guidance in respect of parliamentary business to enable Members of the National Assembly to fulfil their constitutional mandate
• Division operates in an environment that requires it to act in line with relevant constitutional prescripts
• Division conducts its operations in a manner that is professional, consultative, educational, client-driven, and based on information-sharing and awareness-raising

Structure

• The Office of the Secretary to the National Assembly is responsible for overall leadership of the Division
• The House Plenaries Section is responsible for all advice, guidance and support directly related to plenaries and mini-plenaries of the National Assembly. The Unit also undertakes the responsibility for oversight functions of the National Assembly, including the management of the National Assembly programme, the processing of questions, and the communication and tracking of House resolutions (decisions)
• The Research and Parliamentary Practice Unit is responsible for non-plenary related advice, guidance and support. These include procedural research, the development of training and reference material, the production and management of procedural publications and records, the scrutiny, tabling and referral of papers including Ministerial responses to House resolutions (decisions), the management of petitions, and the handling of complaints, requests, and enquiries from members of the public
• The Table Administration Unit manages the provision of protocol, custodial, security and administrative support to the National Assembly, and strategic and operational management of governance matters of the NA Table Division

NA Table services:

• Research
  • Research on parliamentary procedure
  • Responses to questionnaires from Parliaments and other internal and external stakeholders
• Analysis
  • Analysis of rules and practices
  • Updating of rules and practices
• Coordinating
  • Overall coordination of House Committees
  • Communication of House resolutions
  • Plenaries of the NA
• Consulting
  • Provision of advice
  • Provision of guidance
• Processing and Drafting
  • Scrutinising papers and reports submitted to the NA
  • Processing of referrals/complaints/requests/enquiries from the public
  • Capacity building
  • Training on rules and practices

Challenges:

Strengthening the tracking and monitoring of House resolutions, government undertakings, and petitions necessitates increased capacity. Consequently, human resources capacity requires enhancement in the midst of a constrained financial outlook.

See attached for full presentation

National Council of Provinces (NCOP) Table

Adv Modibedi Phindela, Secretary to the NCOP, presented an overview of the NCOP. The NCOP exists to represent the interests of the provinces in the national sphere of government, participate in the national legislative process, and provide a national forum for consideration of issues affecting provinces (Section 42 (4) of the Constitution). The presentation covered the NCOP's powers and bill types before Parliament.

Mandating procedures of provinces

• regulated by the Mandating Procedures of Provincial Legislature Act
• defined as authority to act on behalf of a provincial legislature
• applies to bills affecting provinces (section 76)

Three types of mandates

• Negotiating Mandate – authority to negotiate on a bill at committee stage
• Final Mandate – authority to vote on a bill both at committee stage & in the House
• Voting Mandate – authority to vote on a bill in the House

The presentation looked at the eight-week legislative cycle in the NCOP and the types of decisions different bill types require.

The NCOP is also required to oversee and hold accountable by:

• Oversight of delivery of services to the public
• Monitor implementation of laws
• Track implementation of Executive Undertakings and House Resolutions
• Scrutiny of government budgets and Annual Performance Plans

Oversight and accountability instruments:

• Committee meetings
• Site visits
• Motions
• Questions
• Oversight Week
• Taking Parliament to the People
• Provincial Week
• Local Government week
• Interventions

The presentation detailed the cooperative and intergovernmental relations affecting the NCOP and international engagements of the NCOP. The financial overview of the NCOP was detailed along with the NCOP staff complement

See attached for full presentation

Core Business Support

Ms Ressida Begg, Division Manager: Core Business Support, presented an overview of the division. The Core Business Support Division (CBS) supports Parliament's core mandates, namely law-making, oversight, public participation, cooperative government, and international engagement.

The Division provides:

• Procedural advice,
• Content support,
• Secretarial support
• Logistical support; and
• Liaison services to the Leader of Government Business, to committees of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.

CBS provides public education programmes, information, and access to support public participation activities in the Houses and committees.

The CBS provides procedural advice, secretariat support, content support and logistical support to committees. Committees are provided with:

• Content Advisor: responsible for provision of content advisory services as they relate to portfolio matters before the committee
• Committee Secretary: mainly responsible for secretariat support and providing procedural advice to the committee
• Committee Assistant: responsible for logistical support to the committee
• Executive Secretary: manages the office of the committee Chairperson

All committee support staff report to a Unit Manager responsible for a Select and Portfolio Committees cluster. Unit Managers report to the Section Manager: Committee Support.

The presentation provided more details of the committee section and the committee section clusters.

Public participation

• The Public Participation Section comprises: Public Education Office and Parliamentary Democracy Offices (PDO)
• Key focus is to educate the public on how to get involved in parliamentary processes
• g., Law-making and oversight processes, mechanisms for participation such as petitions, representations, and how to submit a bill before a committee to prepare participants for a public hearing on the bill.
• Parliamentary Democracy Offices (PDOs) in three provinces, the Northern Cape (Kakamas), Limpopo (Ga-Matlala Thaba) and North-West (Ganyesa) provinces
• PDOs allow for coordinated public participation and involvement in legislative processes and other processes of Parliament
• They also enable Parliament to reach citizens in the rest of South Africa who are not able to attend parliamentary proceedings in Cape Town

The presentation then examined the products and services in line with the above, the public participation organogram, and the support provided to the Leader of Government Business (LOGB) office.

Challenges

• Resourcing committees
• Resourcing public participation
• Resourcing OLOGB
• Professionalising committee and public participation support services
• New skills sets required to support the core mandates – data-driven, evidence-based oversight – expertise in data analytics, AI, information systems to support core mandates
• Less bureaucracy – more speed in processing committee requests
• Adequate funding for the core mandates of Parliament

See attached for full presentation

At this point, Members again raised the issue that the length of some of the presentations differed from what they received and asked that this be dealt with. The Speaker of the NA endeavored to provide all the up-to-date documents. Members suggested utilising one link to download all the documents. 

Knowledge and Information Services

Dr Leon Gabriel, Division Manager: KIS, presented an overview of the division. The Knowledge and Information Services Division supports the work of Members of Parliament by providing documentation, information (library), language and research services to Parliament. Key divisional outputs include research, information and analysis, professional multilingual communication services, knowledge creation, and organisation. The KIS division is comprised of:

• Language services
• Documentation services
• Research services
• Library of Parliament

The presentation detailed the division's outputs, objectives, key indicators, and budget allocation. It was noted that the reduction in compensation and operational budget allocations has a negative impact on KISD's ability to support Parliament's business and expand and improve its services in line with its operational plan and the macro-strategic framework of a transformative Parliament.

KIS interventions for enhanced support

1. Filling of critical vacancies to ensure adequate support to committees and the Houses
2. Training and capacity-building to enhance support to oversight, lawmaking and public participation - data-driven insights, modelling and scenario tools, consecutive and simultaneous interpreting training, production, printing and electronic document management and records of committees
3. E-library services provide up-to-date resources for informed decision-making, effective policy development, meaningful deliberations in committees, participation in House debates, and law-making.
4. Introduction of appropriate technology to meet demand for services in support of plenaries and Committees and possible cost containment regarding requirement for additional staff:

• AI Simultaneous Interpreting Technology
• Automated Speech Recognition and Transcription
• AI automated translations
• Operational Software for Documentation Technical Services

1. Appropriate tools of trade for on-site and remote services
2. Pre-oversight site visits, data verification and primary research, commissioned research and strategic collaboration with academic institutions, research institutions, state institutions to enhance capacity and access to technical and subject expertise

See attached for full presentation

International Relations and Protocol

Mr Dumisani Sithole, Division Manager: IRP, presented an overview of the division. The International Relations and Protocol Division (IRPD) is responsible for supporting the PGIR, preparing and briefing South African parliamentary delegations and maintaining a database on Parliament’s international relations activities, including information on the various international protocols and bilateral agreements that South Africa is party to.

South Africa’s parliamentary diplomacy

• Delegations tabling motions for resolution or proposing amendments to draft resolutions that reflect South Africa’s constitutional values and pursuit of democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.
• Delegation reports, resolutions and other policy-guiding documents (e.g. model laws) must be fed into the committee system where legislative and oversight powers rest.
• Strengthened bilateral relations through regular engagements with existing bilateral partners to honour Parliament’s formal bilateral agreements, e.g. Parliament to Parliament and bodies like the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) to advance parliamentary diplomacy.
• Forging new strategic bilateral partnerships to promote South Africa’s national interests and collaboration at the multilateral level.
• Strengthened relations through regular engagements with key stakeholders to create reports and advice that advance South Africa’s national interests in bilateral and multilateral engagements.
• Collaborative relationship between the PGIR and parliamentary committees through streamlined information-sharing and engagement.
• Strategic engagement between the PGIR, key committee chairpersons, and presiding officers is needed for periodic strategy development and review.

IRPD objectives

• Providing well-researched, well-articulated, versatile content and advisory services and products for Presiding Officers and Members of Parliament – based on South Africa’s policy narratives and current international developments – to enable them to confidently represent South Africa at international engagements and promote the country’s national interests.
• Enhanced bilateral parliamentary diplomacy through research papers on progress and implementation of signed MOUs and Declarations of Intent with existing and new strategic partners.
• Drafting high-quality delegation reports for timeous submission and processing within Parliament.
• Providing professional protocol and ceremonial services.
• Providing professional administrative, travel and logistics support
• Developing an information sharing and communications process between Presiding Officers, PGIR and parliamentary committees.
• Advising the Presiding Officers and senior management on administrative support to the SADC PF, PAP and other parliamentary bodies.
• Advising the Presiding Officers and senior management on IPU and CPA’s capacity-building services available to Parliament.
• Advising the PGIR on periodic engagement with non-state actors on international policy questions to involve public participation in the international relations of Parliament.
• Improved and accessible reports on all bilateral engagements.
• Developing and implementing a Protocol guideline for internal Order of Precedence.

Challenges

• Organisational ability to facilitate travel arrangements for members.
• Scheduling Plenary debates on international questions/issues in both Houses and developing common positions to be taken/advanced in international fora and/or multilateral platforms on international issues.
• Insufficient funding allocation for international engagements

Planned approach

• Review of business processes to align to the needs of the institution.
• Enhancing collaboration with international bodies, legislatures and local government.
• Review of expenditure and commitments (e.g. international travel, conferences, etc.)
• Aligning international work of Parliament to the national interests of the country.

See attached for full presentation

Parliamentary Communication Services

Mr Moloto Mothapo, Division Manager: PCS, presented an overview of the division. Scope of the division: The National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces must conduct their business in an open manner, and hold their sittings, and those of their committees, in public, but reasonable measures may be taken to regulate public access, including access of the media, to the Assembly/Council and their committees. The Houses may not exclude the public, including the media, from a committee sitting unless it is reasonable and justifiable to do so in an open and democratic society. The PCS support the Institution's strategic plans by operating under a participatory development communications approach, focusing on empowering citizens through accurate, timely, and accessible information about Parliament's activities and processes.

• Drive strategic communications to bridge the gap between Parliament and citizens
• Facilitate stakeholder engagement
• Build and maintain public trust in Parliament as a democratic institution. The mission is to deliver an exceptional participatory development communications public service that makes a difference.

Key responsibilities

1. Strategic Communications

• Develop integrated communication strategies
• Manage Parliament's brand reputation
• Coordinate unified messaging - Support parliamentary leadership communications

2. Broadcasting Services

• Manage parliamentary TV and radio services
• Oversee live proceedings coverage
• Produce content
• Establish media partnerships

3. Digital Communications

• Manage social media and online presence
• Drive digital transformation
• Implement new technologies
• Maintain digital platforms

4. Media Relations

• Primary media liaison
• Coordinate press engagements
• Issue official communications
• Manage media relationships 

      5. Public Education & Stakeholder Engagement

• Drive public awareness campaigns
• Support participation initiatives
• Manage stakeholder partnerships
• Coordinate constituency communications

      6. Content Development

• Produce multilingual materials
• Develop educational content
• Manage publications
• Create multimedia content

      7. Analysis & Evaluation

• Monitor public sentiment
• Evaluate communication impact
• Conduct audience research
• Track media coverage

Challenges

• Currently, eight Principal Communication Officers are responsible for 46 committees in both Houses, which translates into one communication support for every six committees, which is insufficient. 
• Insufficient budget to support the committees in their outbound oversight visits & public hearings
• Secure and implement full broadcast capabilities in all committee venues - 100% audio-visual broadcast capabilities.
• The Audience Segmentation Model cannot roll out due to budgetary constraints.
• Contact Centre not able to roll out due to budgetary constraints.
• Community radio airtime budgetary constraints.
• Capable and well-resourced parliamentary TV channel.

Human resources

• Although the current remuneration budget represents 84% of the overall PCS budget, PCS is under resourced in certain areas.
• The eight Principal Communication Officers (PCOs) servicing 46 committees, which translates to six committees per PCO, is not conducive to strengthening and supporting the committees, especially when all the committees are sitting or doing oversight visits. It is challenging to prioritise support in terms of importance.
• Social media coordinator - no assigned person is currently assigned, and PCOs currently perform this function.
• The media and communication environment is continuously evolving. Multichoice sponsored a fully equipped broadcast studio in 2022 based on benchmarking exercises undertaken with other parliaments. However, the studio requires funding for broadcast and technical human resources.
• It is envisaged that the organisational re-alignment will address the human resource capacity constraints

See attached for full presentation

SA Legislative Sector (SALS)

Mr Msimelelo Nyikana, Head: Capacity Building, SALS, took Members through an overview of the division. Section 40 of the Constitution says legislative bodies are independent, but interrelated & interdependent (regulated by MoUs, SALS Constitution, Sector Bill in process). Legislative bodies must adhere to & advance the principles of co-operative government (not encroach geographical, functional or institutional integrity). Legislatures must co-operate with each other in mutual trust & good faith. Overall aim is to strengthen the Legislative arm of government through:

• Cooperative Governance
• Develop all legislatures continually to serve and enhance democracy
• Recognition of the need to collaborate on matters of common interest
• Develop common norms and standards based on similar mandates – resulting in similar or aligned programme implementation by legislatures
• Facilitate greater cooperation and cohesion among institutions
• Learning organisations, share and exchange knowledge

SALS

• Collaboration and cooperation between Parliament and Provincial Legislatures—coordinated through established joint sector structures.
• Speakers’ Forum SA, Reference Groups (sub-committees)
• Forum of Secretaries, SALS Clusters & Professional Forums
• Other sector structures – Chair of Chairs Forum, SA Parliamentary Institute (SAPI), SAAPAC, SALSEO, SALS Bargaining Forum
• Coordination, programme and project management, technical & secretariat support is provided by the Legislative Sector Support mechanism placed in Parliament
• Local Government relations – SALGA President to SF, Secretaries’ level engagement – towards potential integration to sector joint structures

SAPI

• The South African Parliamentary Institute was established in December 2021 as a strategic intervention of the Legislative Sector.
• To contribute to sector efforts to build an arm of state that is responsive and positively contributes to the country's transformational agenda.
• Four pillars – Capacity Building; Research & Knowledge Management; Technical & Advisory Services & Alumni Association & Partnerships.
• 6^th Term – establishment & institutionalisation phase, amidst Covid-19 restrictions and the fire that gutted Parliament.
• Instrumental in delivering capacity-building programmes in the 6th Term, the key focus for the 7th Term is to ensure that all the institute's pillars are functional.
• SAPI is governed by a board (11 members) appointed by & reporting to the Speakers’ Forum
• Legislative Sector Support provides management, administration & secretariat support

Sector programmes

• Capacity Development – Professionalisation of Sector – SA Parliamentary Institute, Harmonisation, Orientation & Induction of Members & Committees, long-term academic & short learning programmes & committee specific skills training, other relevant training – e.g. media handling training, Interpares Exchange programme – SA & EU member states, European Parliament
• Core Business related work – Chair of Chairs Forum activation (House Chairs NA, NCOP & Chair of Chairs: Provincial Legislatures), Sector Programmes & Projects on Oversight, PP, Lawmaking & Procedural
• Interlegislature, Local Government and Sector International Parliamentary Relations work – Coordination of SA Delegation to CPA (CWP, SoCATT), SALS-EU relations & donor funds management, Framework for Provincial Speakers’ Forums
• Strategy and Governance – FMPPLA implementation, amendment, Regulations, Audit & Risk, Sector Planning, Performance & M&E,

The presentation detailed the available academic and short learning programmes and the comprehensive induction programme for Members.

Budget

• 3^rd to 6^th term – programmes part funded through Legislature Budget (travel & accommodation) & EU funding (course fees, venue, facilitator costs)
• 7^th term 2025/26 and 2026/27 – WITS, UJ and NSG programmes = EU funded
• Challenge – Limited budget allocation for 2025/26 for other training initiatives and SAPI

Human Resources

• LSS has 15 staff members
• Need for additional capacity (staff, skills and competencies) to fully support the Institute (Management, coordination and implementation of MP Capacity Building and other pillars of the Institute)

Remedial Steps –

• Speakers’ Forum directive to explore funding options for Members’ Capacity Building and sector programmes.
• Explore options to supplement HR capacity.

See attached for full presentation

Parliamentary Protection Services (PPS)

Lt Gen Samson Shitlabane, chief of security for parliament, took Members through an overview of the division. The mandate of PPS is executed in conjunction with the South African Police Services who serve Parliament in terms of the National Key Points Act, Act no. 102 of 1980.

Scope

• Provide a safe and secure environment for members, staff, visitors, and stakeholders.
• Enhance Security capacity.
• Standardisation and harmonisation of the security standards, systems and processes.
• Skills and capacity building of security.
• Integrated security systems and practices across the Legislative and other stakeholders.

Key focus areas

• Physical Security
• Information and Security Risk Management
• Investigations
• Training and Development
• Stakeholder Liaison and Programme Management
• Disaster Management

Role of PPS

• Liaise with the South African Police Services and participate in forums
• Liaise with Provincial Commissioners in terms of oversights, public hearings and events
• Appointment of Chief of Security
• Liaise with Security cluster
• Liaise with State Security Agency (Information Security and Risk Management) and participate in forums
• Liaison with Provincial Legislatures
• Liaison with other stakeholders: Department of Public Works and Infrastructure (DPWI), Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), City of Cape Town (CoCT), Ministries, Judiciary, Independent Electoral Commission (IEC)

Staff are on duty 24/7, 365 days a year. Protection Services became a Division as from 01 October 2023.

Staff Complement (105)

• 1 x Chief of Security appointed 01 October 2023
• 1 x Unit Manager
• 1 x Executive Secretary
• 5 x Controllers (C1-C3 level)
• 34 x Chamber Support Officers (C1-level)
• 4 x Senior Protection Officers – Shift leaders (B2-level)
• 20 x Operator Support Personnel (B2-level)
• 2 x Key Control Officers (B2-level)
• 37 x Protection Officers (B1-level)

Challenges

• Discrepancies in Salaries levels of staff within PPS

Posts advertised

• 1 x Section Manager: Security Services
• 1 x Section Manager: Information and Security Risk Management
• 1 x Executive Assistant

Cost drivers

• Overtime
• Subsistence allowances
• Accommodation
• Vehicle hire
• Shuttle Services (reduced cost by hiring vehicles from Government Garage)

Successes

• 5 x shift systems introduced
• Chamber Support staff was assigned to shifts
• Deployment of staff to buildings
• Memorandum of Agreement: Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) – to be signed
• Memorandum of Understanding: State Security Agency for Vetting Field Unit – to be signed
• Establishment of a Steering Committee (rebuilding of Parliament)
• Appointment as Chairperson for the NKP JPC Planning Committee
• Centralised communication – Legislature and SAPS (support to oversights and public hearings)
• State Security Agency (SSA) – Conducted information and physical security audit
• State Security Agency (SSA) – National and Provincial Manager’s Forum
• Presidential Inauguration Operational Planning Committee (OPC)
• Events and Sports Security Planning Committee (ESSPC) – Inauguration

See attached for full presentation

Governance Risk and Compliance

Ms Julia Sefako, Senior Manager: Risk and Compliance, gave the members an overview of the division. The division supports the Accounting Officer of Parliament in establishing an effective enterprise-wide risk management system as outlined in section 7c of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act (FMPPLA).

Critical institutional risks

• Unsustainable funding for Parliament's constitutional mandate and strategy.
• Inadequate physical infrastructure may hamper the execution of Parliament's constitutional mandate (oversight, law-making, etc.).
• Human capital constraints which may result in non-performance.
• Obsolete technological infrastructure which may hinder Parliament's ability to fulfil its constitutional mandate
• Potential disruptions to the functioning of Parliament caused by catastrophic events which could lead to partial or complete suspension of the functioning of Parliament.

See attached for full presentation

Internal Audit and Audit Committee Overview

Ms Emilize Nezar, Chief Audit Executive, presented Members with an overview of the division. The Audit Committee (AC) has been established in terms of section 47 of the FMPPLA. The AC is appointed by the Executive Authority (EA), in a manner that ensures its independence and compliance with the provisions of section 47 of the FMPPLA.

A Charter is developed in terms of section 48(1) of the FMPPLA, which states that the AC must establish an Audit Charter to guide its approach, set its operating procedures, and determine the rules that govern its relationship with the Internal Audit (IA) Unit and the Accounting Officer (AO).

See attached for details of the composition of the AC and mandate, purpose and services of the AC

Internal audit overview

• IA Strategy is based on assessing and understanding the internal and external environment.
• Considers the shift in the strategic and legislative environment and stakeholder expectations.
• Responds to the changes in internal auditing trends towards strategic and continuous auditing.
• Conform with the Standards for the International Practice of Internal Auditing; and deliver quality internal audit service to clients.
• It elevates the function from one of the requirements of the FMPPLA to a strategic function.
• Business Unusual: the strategy seeks to address the future of IA activities in a digital Parliament.

Situational analysis

• The 5th Parliament introduced the concept of stakeholder management with regular client satisfaction surveys to improve service offerings and support to Members of Parliament. Parliament’s strategy for the 6th Parliament shifted to focus on impact and outcomes. An improved focus is required during the 7^th
• Not all institutional business processes are mapped and automated to support this direction. Business processes are largely undocumented and manual. This has a negative impact on the audit process.
• Perception of institutional governance of Parliament has been boosted by the achievement of consecutive clean audits (2014/15 to 2023/24).
• Renewed focus on compliance related matters is required.
• Risk Management Maturity—A risk implementation plan has been developed and is being implemented. A process is underway to capacitate the GRC function.
• The design of the IA structure does not fully correspond with the organisational structure. A review of the IA service delivery model and structure is required to ensure adequate alignment (>1%).
• The coordination of IAFs within the Sector is at an intermediary stage and has resulted in the development of the following sector frameworks and approaches, amongst others:
  • SALS Internal Audit Framework;
  • SALS ERM Maturity Model; and
  • Audit Committee guidelines.
  • The embellishment of the Sector –SALS IA and Risk Management Forum.
• Building Key Relationships - Need to develop relationships with other internal auditors to develop and preserve sector-specific knowledge
• Combined Assurance initiative has commenced. E.g. MOA with DPWI.
• Automating the internal audit processes has introduced significant efficiencies and improved collaboration and management of IA staff.

See attached for details of value proposition, current structure, budget and audit outcome

Key risks

• Inability to cover the full risk universe due to human resource constraints and provide services to Parliament and the AC (Objective 1)
• Non-conformance to the IIA Standards. Not receiving general conformance to the IIA during the External QAR. Lack of a dedicated quality assurance function (Objective 1 & 2)
• IIA ahead of the institutional maturity resulting in rejection/non-implementation of recommendations.
• Assurance fatigue. Appetite for internal audit services (resistance to change, animosity). Maturity of the institution; knowledge of the Client in interpreting governance issues.
• Constitution and Independence. The lack of clarity regarding the AC's reporting responsibility affects the independence of the IA function.
• Inadequate tools for performing continuous auditing due to budget constraints, prolonged system development and procurement processes, resulting in inefficiencies in the audit process, self-imposed scope limitation.
• Inability to keep up with change and demand for IA services due to inadequate data analysis skills, 4IR, agile planning.
• Changes in the IA standards may impact the governance of IA.
• Conflicting stakeholder expectations on assurance over core business processes. 
• Insufficient IA budget.

AGSA scope coordination

Section 188 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa (Constitution) read with Section 4(1) of the Public Audit Act (PAA) mandates the AGSA to audit and report on the accounts, financial statements and financial management of public institutions and any institution funded from the National and Provincial Revenue Fund. In line with its mandate, the AGSA audited Parliament's accounts, financial statements, and financial management for the 2022/23 financial year.

According to Standard 2050 of the International Standards for the Professional Practice of Internal Auditing (Standards), the Chief Audit Executive (CAE) should share information and coordinate activities with other internal and external assurance and consulting services providers to ensure proper coverage and minimise duplication of efforts. In line with the Standards, the Internal Audit Unit (IA) has coordinated the statutory audits to ensure efficient flow of information and resolution of challenges experienced during the audit. A report is produced to provide the results of the activities performed by the IA in coordinating the statutory (AGSA) audit activities.

Implementation of recommendations

• The purpose of adopting follow-up procedures is to monitor and ensure that management actions have been effectively implemented.
• Managers who do not implement agreed actions arising from external and internal audit findings expose Parliament to risk. Following up on management actions helps to prevent this becoming an issue.
• During this process, internal auditors evaluate the adequacy, effectiveness, and timeliness of management's actions regarding reported findings and recommendations.
• Follow-up audits provide management with an update on whether recommendations were implemented as agreed, and provides information on the impact of implemented recommendations

See attached for full presentation

Constitutional and Legal Services

Adv Zuraya Adhikarie, Chief Parliamentary Legal Advisor, took Members through an overview of the division. The role of the division is to:

      1.Provide oral and written legal advice

• Classifying Bills
• Contracts Vetting
• Petitions
• Rules and Amendments
• Legal Compliance and Constitutionality
• Draft Policies (including advising on existing policies)
• International Agreements
• Bills and Amendments

       2.Legal drafting

• Legislation initiated by Parliament: Private Members / Committee Bills
• Amendments to, or redrafting of, Executive Bills
• Contracts/Policies and proposed changes

3. Processing of Bills and Acts

• Monitoring compliance with rules
• Edit official text bills
• Edit and publish 2nd language bills
• Track official passage of bills
• Report to programming committee on status of bills
• Processing Act forms for assent and safekeeping

4. Litigation management

• Study papers served, advise on intention to file
• Provide strategic guidance in the management of matters
• Liaise with principals and necessary role players (including the spokesperson and relevant committees as required)
• Instruct State Attorney/brief counsel
• Prepare papers, coordinate commissioning and filing
• Regular updates to principals
• Judgment Analyses
• Impact Assessment for future processes

See attached for a summary overview of litigation, pending matters, new cases and orders and outcomes.

Structure

• Chief Legal Adviser
• Three Senior Legal Advisers (one vacant)
• Seven advisers(drafting) – six in the other two teams

Bills Office: Chief Editor plus four others (and one vacancy) and five in the admin team (two are vacant)

Budget: Request was for R23m but allocation: R17m.

See attached for full presentation

Chairperson Lekganyane: Thank you so much for the presenters and all the presentations made before this Joint Standing Committee. When the first presentation from the divisions was done, we said that your presentations would help us understand each division's business within the Parliament's structure. It will also enable members to perform effective oversight because they will know what each division is doing. We want to thank you so much for helping us understand the works and mechanics of your Parliament's structure.

Chairperson Lekganyane: I'm now allocating time. We have until eight o’clock, and I have counted you. Each one of you has a maximum of 20 minutes to speak. Just on a lighter note, it's not compulsory. Members may also exercise their generosity in the contributions that they make, but we have also said that we're going to have time with all these divisions when each will be presenting quarterly reports or any other matter that we may want them to come and present and clarify.

There was a 10-minute break.

Discussion

Mr D Van Rooyen (MK): without wasting time, let me go straight to the issues, starting with presentations from the divisions. Well, maybe I should start by welcoming all the presentations. So I think even yesterday, you indicated that we will have time to engage with the details at some stage. And I was wrongly so reminded that there is a link with those details. I must confess, I looked for the link, but the link didn't give me the details. It just gave me the truncated versions of the details. So I'm not sure what the chief whip was referring to [yesterday] when she said the link has more details than the presentations entertained yesterday. I apologised for not reading the link, only to find the apology unnecessary. They owe me an apology that was recorded. They owe me an apology. But I'm happy to…because the parliament strategy had exactly what one was expecting. But I derived consolation from the fact that yesterday, there was an undertaking that we would get all the divisions' AGSA management letters because those letters are expected to carry the details. And I hope that when we schedule the appearance of the divisions before this Joint Standing Committee, we will prioritise the internal audit team so they can take us through those AGSA management letters because that's what we need to excel in our oversight mandate. But I want a few questions coming from these very helpful presentations.

Firstly, starting with communication services, but it cuts across, because I hear there are plans to do this and that, but you know, they are not here. Timelines – it’s always difficult for us as public representatives to hold you accountable without clear timelines. I hope we'll get those details at some stage. But I'm more interested because you know this thing of Parliament on television is so critical, because our people are forever fed wrong information. We should prioritise giving our people the right information on what is happening in their beloved country. There was reference to a concept document that is being developed. I'm not sure if there are any process timelines attached to that process, or is it just one of those processes that will continue forever?

The other question concerns protection services. In general, I'm not sure. Do we have a summary of lessons learned from the incredible happenings that cost us our historic and monumental buildings? What are the lessons learned from that? Because the South African public is still shocked by exactly what happened from a security point of view, I'm not sure if there are any lessons from this unfortunate development.

And then moving to the strategic plan. I was very fortunate because the strategic plan was detailed, I was not even focusing on the slide presentation, and I managed to go through the whole document last night. But I will summarise my submission for the party I represent here. I must indicate, we acknowledge, as the MK party, some progress made on some of the 2030 National Development Plan indicators. However, if you look into the strategic plan, the presentation correctly captures that challenges like unemployment, poverty, and inequality persist. Now it is our submission to contrast that these stubborn challenges prevail entirely due to the continued disconnect between how we plan and how we budget. Our planning and our budget frameworks are not alike. We want to caution this important Committee, which deals with the representation of Parliament as a supreme oversight institution, to guard against being a victim of this disconnect, and I will tell you why. Where we establish a disconnect, in his address of the State of the Nation, the head of state, Mr Ramaphosa announced that the 2024 - 2029 Medium Term Development Plan (MTDP) exists. And we all know the significance of this plan for this administration, because it's only through this plan that as Parliament we can obviously assess the 2025 budget proposal. In my other committee, the Standing Committee on Finance, we were looking for this MTDP because it's a norm that Cabinet should have approved the plan. The two Houses, the National Assembly and the NCOP, should have processed that plan. I'm not sure if that has been abandoned, but that plan is critical. The medium term plan for the new administration is very critical for oversight. So, if the Cabinet approves it, the National Assembly and the NCOP will process the plan accordingly. But this time around, it never happened. But we call for it since it was cited in SONA - can we get this plan? We want to see exactly what informed the Minister's budget speech and are looking for the alignment because that's our role. That's how we should hold the Executive accountable. Unfortunately, it was confirmed officially that Cabinet has not yet approved that plan. Now you see, you go to the strategic document, which still refers to that plan and gives the details of that plan, but Cabinet has not yet approved the plan. Now you see the creeping in of this connection between our plan and the reality, so I'm not sure what you are encouraging in our strategy if that plan is nonexistent? We've been looking for that plan. I would be very excited if it could be confirmed because you are now citing it in the strategic plan as one of the considerations made to develop the plan.

You see, the strategy correctly showed a well-capacitated parliament. We've properly capacitated divisions meant to ensure that the quality of life of our people is improved. This is key because as a core mandate of this Parliament, we are not here to represent ourselves, but to represent the masses of our poor people. Now, the strategy correctly acknowledges that the main challenge, what I term the elephant in the room, is the lack of financial resources due to low national revenue, which is now a transversal issue. You listen to other departments, budget cuts, and austerity measures; it's a banal and transversal issue. But when you go to the strategy analysis, the strategy lacks robustness, a potential solution. And I will demonstrate that. It is well established that the current fiscal consolidation strategy has not achieved its goals of reducing debt, and, of course, of stimulating growth. And we all know this is the main cause of the unabated budget cuts. But I'm not sure the strategy seems to be running away from that reality. Maybe my analysis is incorrect, but that's what I established when analysing. What are the risks for this strategy? Even research from our own research tanks here in Parliament. I'm not going to mention them, but we all know them, demonstrating evidence that fiscal consolidation or austerity measures contributed to economic stagnation, worsening unemployment, poverty and inequality. The strategy presentation is so conspicuously silent on this research finding. Instead, the strategy is louder on concepts like anti-establishment, literally meaning retaining the status quo and heightening nationalism. I hope it does not say intensifying privatisation of public services will be very heavy on our people, if really our concern is still the masses of our poor people. Now, we are arguing that we need, as our contribution to this process, we need a rethink of the fiscal framework to deal with the elephant in the room because if we continue to be cowered, we will come here term after term, year after year, administration after administration. After all, the budget cuts have happened consecutively for the past two administrations, if not three administrations. We have been talking about one thing, but our voices are not loud enough as an activist parliament on what we think is the solution.

There are many examples of what we need to do to rethink our fiscal framework. We need a more expansive growth-orientated strategy. I can cite just a few examples relevant to the South African situation. What stops us from embarking on an aggressive industrialisation drive? Why can't we do that? Because our money is there. The world relies on the minerals we have as a country to develop their own countries. Why can't we embark on this aggressive industrialisation drive? We are too blessed and endowed with many mineral resources to always be pleading poverty. Every time we are pleading poverty, when we are supposed to be excelling in providing services to our people. We are naturally endowed; we don't have a reason to be pleading poverty. Parliament should advocate for things like taking a strong public sector balance sheet and our asset base. We have so many assets at home and globally that we are not leveraging as a government of the day. We should advocate for such because that's a lot of money that will come to our revenue. We can intensify the management of the interest rate on government bonds, and in that process we can save billions that should go to our fiscal revenue. We have to advocate, among other things, to intensify tax revenue collection measures. You know we are losing half a trillion annually on illicit financial flows. It's proven. We assigned a former state official to investigate, and I'm speaking of a conservative figure here. We lose a lot of money on illicit trade because we are not investing in advanced technology to deal with illicit trade issues. I mean, you can go to our custom services, you can see the number of containers that are going through, coming into our country, carrying tradable goods, some of them illicit tradable goods, because we are not investing in our revenue enhancement on the custom services. So we have so many examples that we can share with the executive to say that this is what you must do to improve our revenue collection capacity. We should stop just identifying budget cuts as the main problem without saying anything about potential solutions. There's so much you can do to address this at lightning speed. We are spoiled for choice. But you know, our love for our people should be driving us to tap into these choices. If we don't have a love for people, we are concerned about saving the markets, I think it will take us a long time. Let's serve our people as mandated by our Constitution.

We are arguing in this fashion because we think the Parliament's effectiveness and efficacy cannot be considered without addressing the broader economic context. And that's why, even when you look into the strategy, that's where the strategy starts. It deals with global issues, blah, blah, but we are quiet on the potential solutions. Now, the strategy is coming to a very interesting conclusion, and we fully concur with it. A global shift in economic and political power is inevitable. That is our assertion. The presentation correctly states that over the next 20 years, history will judge us very brutally. Over the next 20 years, the economy and political power will be expected to shift from the so-called G7 to the emerging seven. Where is South Africa in those emerging seven?

Because we are committed to driving this course, it's our wish and commitment that this Seventh Parliament plays its role in steering the country in the right development trajectory. And we think the capacity is there to improve the quality of lives of our people. We think the capacity is there if we work together. These things can be realised, and we think the voice of Parliament must be very loud about those realities, especially when our research institutions advise us on the policy trajectory that needs to be adhered to, and we ignore that advice. Thank you. I know it sounded like a political address, but I thought it was important anyway.

Ms Thoko Didiza, Speaker of the National Assembly: Let’s park the discussion on the strategy. It's still in development, but a political engagement includes parties making proposals on the strategy. Maybe we don't deal with it, we don't respond to the issues that have been raised now. And if the Committee will have another session, we can just reflect on it.

Ms M Siwisa (EFF, Northern Cape): I heard what the Speaker is saying, and most of my questions are on the strategic plan, but maybe I must just put it forward and maybe the answer will come after the deliberations. But I wanted to ask a question on outcome three, slide 15, because if we don't have enough money for public hearings, then it means that we are not doing justice to law making. I'm going to couple it with slide 11 on the communications division, because they go hand in hand. Not enough money means that you are not doing justice to the law-making processes, whereby we allow people to come to public hearings and make their inputs, and if there are not enough funds, then it will be a problem.

Has there ever been consequence management taken against the Executive in the past?

Speaker, I don't know if you are aware that there are Members of Parliament whose funds have not been paid to Wits, which is hindering the process, I'm one of them. And one of the things about Wits is that this year, some of us need to finish the postgraduate course we are doing. And if we do not finish this year, it falls off - this is the last year. So I don't know if you are aware. You are speaking about capacitating Members of Parliament, yet some Members of Parliament are frustrated as you are speaking because no money was paid to Wits.

Slide 26, outcome five, again, we speak about funding. If there is no money…I hear what you are saying: political parties still need to sit down and look into the budget and everything, but there is already a gap. To focus on the opening of schools this year, there was not enough money. It led to such an extent that about 33 schools in the Northern Cape are on the brink of being closed down because they all service providers. So the question becomes, where do we get the money? We need money. Speaker, everything needs money. We can come up with the most beautiful plan, but if the funds are not there, we will have a problem.

Coming to the presentation of the National Assembly Secretary, I want to discuss the challenges that you are saying of tracking and monitoring. What are the reasons that you should be faced with that challenge? And the issue of finalising petitions—if the timeframe is finalisation in three months, are we really doing justice to whoever submitted the petition? Is three months enough, or are we just trying to tick off boxes because we have to follow legislation? That's where the problem is.

There are vacancies in almost all of the divisions. Vacancies will hinder service delivery. If the vacancies are not closed, servicing the people of South Africa will be a problem. So we need to come up with a strategy for closing those vacancies. There's no money, but vacancies and personnel are needed. It's all about money. Where is the money going to come from? Those were my only concerns. Chair, thank you very much.

Mr C Dugmore (ANC): I really think that you know, after all the presentations plus the strategy, we all have a sense of the efforts and challenges. So I think just want to express a sincere thank you to everyone who worked on these presentations, and even though there were some hiccups in regard to sharing the presentations, I think we value the work that's been done. I know the Speaker’s made a formal proposal, and I'm sure the co-chairs will deal with that, but if I could just look at the presentation on the strategy - I note there, in terms of the next steps, that on 10 March, there's this consultation with political working groups, and then a presentation to the Executive Authority. Then, on 31 March, there is supposed to be approval and actual tabling. So I'm not sure whether in that space there would be more opportunity to have a…but let's all acknowledge that there has been a serious process where Members of Parliament, NA and NCOP, have been involved in this room and looking at inputting into the strategic plan. But I think some more engagement would obviously help.

With the draft strategic plan, when the Speaker presented, I saw, and I was encouraged by the fact that she had used a word, an additional word, in the vision. And that was “activist”, if I remember your presentation well. The proposed vision, which is included in the draft strategic plan, simply says, and I don't have a problem with that, a “transformative parliament”. I just feel that adding the words, “a transformative and activist parliament” improves… And I noticed in the Speaker's presentation, she used the word “activist”. People have talked about a people's parliament, etc, etc. But I think transformative and activist parliament, for me, captures or strengthens the vision. I think what's been very good is the section on values. I also have a clear inclusion of what one of the members had previously raised about the African philosophy of Ubuntu. I think that that inclusion strengthens the values section.

And then I would also like to just get clarity. One of the key issues mentioned in the presentation, and obviously in the document also, relates to this point on page five of the actual strategy, improving public appointments. Now I'm not sure exactly what the intention of that is. In Parliament, improving the process of public appointments, I presume we're talking about all the Chapter Nines and so on. So I just wondered if a better formulation, because if you say improving public appointments. It's kind of. Do we want to improve the process of public appointments; you know? So that's just a small thing, but I thought maybe that more accurately strengthens the vision.

Then, I've looked at the rules, and in Mr Xaso’s presentation, we learned that the NCOP has an actual committee on executive commitments. And they meet quite regularly. In our rules, if you look at the NA committees, there isn't a specific provision for a National Assembly portfolio committee to monitor executive commitments. So I'm not sure whether we have to change the rules in the rules subcommittee and bring it through, but I just wondered if the NA doesn't have such a portfolio committee because it's not contained in the rules. I also hear some other amendments have not yet been printed in the rules book. You can extract Executive commitments from what Members of the Executive say in the House, the NA or the NCOP. You can extract them from answers to oral questions. You can extract them even from written responses where commitments are made. And that's quite a serious process to follow all those commitments. And I think that would enhance one of the key roles of Parliament, which is holding the Executive to account.

Due to the increased focus on constituency offices, some of us don’t even know of three parliamentary offices in the North West and somewhere in the Northern Cape. Even members of the Executive have constituency offices. Can this Committee be provided with a list of all the constituency offices? I was quite surprised when one of the committee members this week was quite surprised that all of us are supposed to have constituency offices. That might imply that when people are receiving funds, maybe some parties are not actually setting up constituency offices. My understanding is that even if one party doesn’t have a PCO in the north of KZN but there’s an MKP office there, that office should also be open to a member of the public even though it’s an MKP constituency office because we want members of the public to be able to access offices, besides the fact that they'll obviously have a party political function as well. So I think it's important for us to actually assess if we have all those constituency offices set up. Have all the parties utilised the constituency allocation to actually set up offices? What's the address? Where are these offices?

There's a lot to be said about language, and I think the tragedy is, and I think Mr Van Rooyen referred to that. A theme through all these presentations was that to really support and build our indigenous languages, we really need a lot more capability inside and outside the House.

The strategy also references further consultation. I think it says external stakeholders are involved in this strategy. I just wondered who those external stakeholders are.

There's a mention there around virtual tours. I wanted to ask, in this year, as much as we all know from the National Assembly side that we will be in the dome for a good 18 months, I think people are missing out on coming to Parliament. They can come, but can we not, from a certain date in terms of our strategy and in terms of getting public participation going for those that can come to Parliament, allocate a certain number of seats in the gallery of the dome and start Parliament’s public relations people organising those visits where people can actually come? I don't think the dome allows that, and it's been something that's been missing in Parliament since Parliament burned down.

There's a parliamentary counsellor, but there are supposed to be staff in this office. Could we just get a sense of how many are there right now? I think that's a critical way that Parliament links with the Executive, and I'm worried to see that staff is down.

I think we'll debate more about Parliament TV and the different possibilities. I don't think there's time, but at least there's a process.

And then the last thing, and I'm just cutting out a lot of what I wanted to say, but with all the court cases and the litigation that has been referred to and what the Constitutional Court and others have said to Parliament about proper public participation, especially when it comes to bills, I think I remember that there had been a guiding document issued to all chairpersons of committees to inform them of those judgments. Could we just get a copy of that? Maybe it's been circulated already, but the document which guides committees in terms of public participation, so that we don't go against the Con Court rulings.

In summary, it would be useful to have more time to look at this, but you will guide us co-chairs on whether we should use tomorrow or another day.

What I said yesterday, and this is my last point, I know we don't put pressure on our Speaker, but we know that there are clear provisions in the FMPPLA and it comes down to the issue of the budget. I've expressed a view before that it's too late… If you look at the strategic plan at the end, there's a detailed breakdown of the entire budget. Now I presume, and that's a question, that that budget included in the draft strategy is what the indication from Treasury was before, so we're basing it on that. So I would say that one of the things that we should consider for the Annual Performance Plan is almost us supporting the Executive Authority through a process of zero-based budgeting, where we look at all these units in Parliament, what would be the ideal, but what would be manageable. Then, in terms of the process outlined in this legislation, where the Executive Authority engages with Treasury, we, at an early stage, try to influence the 2026/27 budget. I don't think there's much that we'll be able to do [now] unless we can push for an adjustment towards the end of the year. But I feel that most of the shortcomings in terms of our ability to play our role relate to the budget. But we also have a provision to amend Money Bills, and in a strange way, the fact that the budget wasn't presented because many debates need to be had about whether you give revenue more money to collect or scrap VAT. So we need to be seized with those issues because they affect not only Parliament's budget but also all other budgets. So the issue of Parliament beginning to really, through the Money Bills procedure, get involved in a debate about tradeoffs in this country, because clearly we have to trade off and discuss the issue of the role of the Reserve Bank, how expensive money is when it's made available, etc, but I think that we need to commit in the APP towards a process of zero-based budgeting and in supporting our Speaker when she engages Treasury, because otherwise, I don't think we're going to be able to fully achieve what is, in my view, a very solid strategic plan with the right focus and the right emphasis. However, when we get detailed reports from the divisions, all of them are practically impacted by budget shortages, and I think that must be a key concern for us to make the strategy actually succeed. Thanks.

Ms M Clarke (DA): Thank you Chairperson. I'm not going to pose any of my questions regarding the strategy, because the Speaker said that we will have more time to debate that. In terms of that, when we debate it, could we also just get the governance framework? And then, of course, the top risk is underfunding, and what cost-cutting measures and mitigating strategies we will be putting in place to address that.

And then, just in terms of when we have new legislation coming to our committees, what we often find is that the Nedlac involvement and the social impact studies are not done. And we've just had that now with the tobacco bill - there was no consultation of Nedlac, and, you know, we've finished our public participation, and our chairperson has now gone to see Nedlac, and they're coming to do a presentation. But it's a serious shortcoming that we experience. So that's something I would like to raise.

I'm glad to hear that there will be a three-month period for the petitions. My petition on the Order Paper for Tuesday is a year and a half old already, and it's only coming to Parliament on Tuesday. So I'm glad to hear that we are actually going to deal with that.

In terms of communication, I often find that our committee meetings are not ATC’d on the Order Paper, which sometimes causes confusion. So if we don't get notice from the Secretary, you don't know that you will have a meeting.

Regarding international relations, it would also be very beneficial to receive reports on the administration's international engagements, the costs and attendees, what lessons we learned, and what kind of benchmarking we've done, because we don't often see that. It would be very informative for us to get that.

In terms of the PCS division, it's a pity that data costs are so high in this country because YouTube could be a very informative way of communicating to South Africans. However, many people can't afford the cost of data, and therefore, very often, YouTube channels become too expensive for people to use.

Then, in terms of SALS, what is the legal statute and authority of the Speakers Forum, and what decision-making power do they have? What is the critical link between the legislatures and the NCOP? I just often find that legislatures don't actually utilise the NCOP to their benefit. When I was at the legislature, I would come to the NCOP and be afforded the opportunity to present an issue at the NCOP, and the Minister could answer my question during that period of time. And it makes it very beneficial for us to go and report back to the community when we are afforded that kind of platform,

And then the risk and compliance - I'd also like to know the governance framework of that, if we can get that

Then there is the Parliamentary Protection Service. I just maybe need clarity. Can you clarify what the Parliamentary Protection Services does? You've said that in your presentation, but how do they interlink with the SAPS on the parliamentary precinct, and how does that sort of collaboration between the two structures work?

And then, in terms of the internal audit committee, how many investigations have been done, how many disciplinary cases, and particularly important, corruption cases have you picked up, and how are you mitigating that kind of behaviour regarding consequence management?

And then just to the legal services, this is just a comment to thank you, because I've done a Private Member’s Bill, and you were exceptionally helpful throughout that process. And thank you to your department for that. Thank you.

Chairperson Legkanyane: All the members who have been identified to speak have spoken, and I see that we still have enough time because we allocated time from 6pm to 8pm. We want to reduce it to 7pm. No, I want to say that for us to do our work effectively, the inputs and questions that members ask, and those in administration must take notes. In future, when they prepare their reports, they must make sure that where there could have been gaps…like what Ms Clarke is asking about, how many disciplinary cases there were and how many were resolved. If a question is asked in the first quarter of the year, we don’t expect that the same question is asked again mid-year. This information must be included in the reporting as a norm.

I do not have questions. We spoke about the improvement of the regulations. One other thing that we encountered when we were electing the co-chairpersons was that there was no clarity in terms of the provisions of the Act, because it took some time, we even had to seek legal opinion, and we relied on customary practice. I think there is a part that deals with nominations, whether Members of the Joint Standing Committee who come from the NCOP can nominate a person from the National Assembly. in terms of the Act, we remain two divisions within the Joint Standing Committee or whether a person coming from the National Assembly can support a nomination from the NCOP. The legal section is here and will help us as we move forward.

And I think the other one relates to the Committee's reports. Where does the Committee table its reports? The practice now is that the report of the Committee is separated - one goes to the National Assembly and one goes to the NCOP. I guess that is the same practice as the Joint Standing Committee on Defense and other joint standing committees. During our induction, we deliberated on this matter and many other related matters that the Act may not cover. The strongest feeling of the Members is that the Committee's reports cannot be separated. But I think it's a matter that the legal section can look at, whether it's going to be practically possible or theoretically conceivable for the joint standing committees to present their reports at the joint sitting of Parliament. And I don't know but, yeah, there is that. There is that view. And because this Committee is a Joint Standing Committee, there is a particular understanding of the use of the word “joint” from Members of Parliament. So it's something that we must look at so that we do not end up having a situation where our practices are not consonant with the spirit and the letter of the Constitution, or the rules of Parliament.

With that, the contributions from Members have been concluded, and we will hand over to you, Speaker and the Secretary for the responses. I do not know. The secretary will get your guidance on whether you want each division to speak or you will delegate. It is your discretion how you respond to the matters. When you conclude your responses, you must also thank the respective divisions you lead before this Committee. Thank you.

Responses

Mr George: thank you. We will share the responses with the colleagues. I would like to cover a few aspects. Maybe let’s start with the frustrating part of the Members on the studies at the Wits. If there are any cases you are aware of, our division, under LSS, can expedite attending to those issues with Wits. We have been responding individually with Members, where it has been forwarded directly, and we have been resolving issues at Wits. Yesterday, I did indicate some of the intricacies where a payment would not have been made because a Member was redoing the course or was not there at the time of the exam. So our LSS team can examine each case, but where it is nonpayment due to Parliament not playing its role, we can intervene, even by tomorrow, should there be such cases. We can provide members with the staff's contact details.

Regarding the strategy around external consultations, yes, we made reference to that, because when you look at the alignment of work with our legislatures. During the drafting, the Speakers Forum was convened by the presiding officers of Parliament. We mapped out the strategies of all the legislatures, and at that time, seven had concluded [their draft strategies], but the other two had not concluded. So we look at interface points around public participation and interface points about oversight. So our strategy takes into account that, but there was also consultation around points of interdependencies. We have also shared the strategy with civil society regarding the responsiveness dimension of Parliament. We are also interacting with various players under the pillar of our strategy called a collaborative Parliament

I won’t address the medium-term strategy since it will be discussed further.

The work on disciplinary engagements and processes in the audit committee's work is available. As guided, the reporting will then be standard in subsequent meetings.

Regarding possible committees [in the NA] that need to be similar to the NCOP, maybe the Speaker could guide us in approaching that question. I will leave it there. If I missed anything, our colleagues will cover it.

Indeed, the issue of public office bearer appointments is about improving the process. Both Houses discussed streamlining so that all chapter 9, 10, and 11 institutions take a similar approach to the timelines for filling vacancies and when issues need to be investigated around section 194 or 174.

Mr Xaso: I'll respond on three issues. Regarding the committee on executive undertakings and petitions, the Rules Committee has decided that this committee be established at its last meeting, but it was held back because it was dealt with together with other items. So what we are working on now is to find a way to separate it from the rest of the other items that have not yet been concluded so that it could serve before the House. The House establishes the committee; otherwise, politically, a decision has been made to establish that committee, so there will be a committee on executive undertakings and petitions because currently there is no committee on petitions in the NA. I could say that it's to be in place shortly. When we dealt with this matter, the Joint Rules Committee was persuaded that three months would be adequate. Coming from a year, two years, or even three years to process a petition in Parliament, we think a three-month period will be progressive. So, the framework at the moment says it will be three months. And I think we should at least implement it and see how far it goes.

There is tracking of resolutions, but it's inadequate at the moment. It's manual. The Speaker in the NA, and I think the same happens in the NCOP, an initial letter will be written to a Member of the Executive. When there is no response after 45 days, the Speaker will write again because the first letter will say that within 45 days, you must respond. If there's no response, the Speaker writes again to allow 30 days. So all in all, 75 days is allowed for Members of the Executive to respond. So there is tracking but it's inadequate. And the other issue here is the points of replies. In other words, ministers sometimes reply formally to the Speaker, and that response is then tabled. But there are instances where a Minister would appear before a committee and give a response in the committee. So we are also trying to find a way to integrate these processes so that when a response is given in a committee meeting, the Office of the Speaker is at least made aware that a particular resolution has been responded to. Hence, we are talking about strengthening our tracking mechanism and looking into issues of automation and integration, as I indicated. So, the point here is that there is tracking, but it does need to be improved. Thank you

Adv Phindela: There was a question about the link between the National Council of Provinces and the provincial legislatures. Indeed, the composition of the National Council of Provinces is such that we do have special delegates who are members of the provincial legislatures, who, regularly, attend the proceedings of the National Council of Provinces. They also attend meetings of committees of the National Council of Provinces. They attend sittings of the National Council of Provinces. On matters that do not require a mandate, they do vote. For instance, special delegates will also have the right to vote when dealing with appropriations bills because they are Members of the National Council of Provinces and provincial legislatures. We have also a relationship, in my capacity as Secretary to the National Council of Provinces, with the secretaries of the provincial legislatures, both at sector level as well as an operational level so far as matters before the National Council of Provinces are concerned.

The second question was, if I may attempt to deal with that question, what is the authority of the Speaker’s Forum and how far does the Speakers Forum take decisions. in so far as that is concerned, if one looks at the Constitution, the Constitution compels the three spheres of government to cooperate amongst themselves on matters of common interest, to inform each other, and so on. So one would say that the Speakers Forum derives that authority from the Constitution. Secondly, at the sector level, we have a memorandum of understanding signed by all the provincial legislatures except for one. And we are also looking at legislation, if possible, that would form part of the founding documents, as part of cooperation and collaboration between the legislatures and Parliament at sector level. We do also have the common bargaining council, for instance, for all the employees in the legislative sector, except for one provincial legislature that has opted not to be part of the common bargaining council at sector level. So there is that interaction, or interrelationship between the three spheres of at that sector level, all the provincial legislatures, plus Parliament. From time to time, the president of organised local government also attends the Speakers Forum meetings. He also has a right to speak in the Speaker’s Forum. In the National Council of Provinces, we have a unit responsible for coordinating the provincial legislatures at the administrative level. So far as we are concerned, in the National Council of Provinces, we look at coordination, cooperation and collaboration, as well as consultation with the provincial legislatures on matters of common interest. I must emphasise that point because, in matters relating to or affecting provinces, we rely on mandates from the provincial legislatures and even on facilitating public involvement. For instance, on bills affecting provinces, we rely on the provincial legislatures to assist in facilitating public involvement. So there is that dialectical relationship between the provincial legislatures and the National Council of Provinces, which remains dynamic. Thank you very much.

Ms Begg: I will respond to the question around the constituency offices. In the last year, we have written to all the political parties requesting this information through the secretary's office. I haven't received responses at that stage, but we will follow up on it, because the public education team is quite keen to establish those parliamentary corners in each of the constituency offices, and we would want to get that information as soon as possible. We can also put it on the parliamentary website so that citizens can know where the constituency offices are, which members allocate to the constituency office, and the contact details. So we want to urge the different political parties to make that information available, but we will follow up with correspondence on that.

On the question of virtual tours, those we normally offer when we do online public education programmes, but we have developed a truncated physical tour of Parliament, largely due to the building operations that are taking place and that we need to take the health and safety of visitors to Parliament into account. But we also want citizens to be able to see Parliament being rebuilt in front of them and to be part of that journey. So there is a truncated physical tour that we make available.

The LOGB office's organisational design currently makes provision for two staff members. We currently have only one, with the coordinator position vacant, but we're also revisiting that area in view of the organisational design to see how best we can support that office.

Then, regarding the guidelines for chairpersons, we have shared them in the previous and current parliaments. This practice note was developed to guide committees around the public participation processes. We've also engaged the chairpersons, both in the NA and the NCOP, for committees during the induction session on what the administration needs to do before committees can go out. And there has been an agreement to allow the administration six weeks preparation, both in terms of developing material, translating that material, engaging with provincial and local government around meeting up with stakeholders in the different areas, but also for the public education team to prepare themselves and familiarise themselves with the legislation to make sure that they can properly educate citizens around the bill. So, further guidelines have been developed. Thank you.

Lt Gen Shitlabane: two questions would have been directed to the division protection services. The first one is in terms of lessons learned from the incident of the 2022 fire. Indeed, there are lessons that we would have learned, but we don't have the summary in terms of the reason for that. The criminal investigation has not been concluded, as well as the department within Parliament itself. When we are done, we will have an inclusive report. However, some things would have been noted, like the perimeter upgrade in terms of security. Those are some of the lessons that we would have learned. For example, you would notice the perimeter fencing, which was standing at 1.8m, but with the security advisory from SAPS, it was increased to 2.8 meters. So this is the work that has been done, and other things would have been noticed, which would have been the weak points in terms of the system. So there is work that has been done that we would have learned from that particular incident. But to have that formal report, I think we would need to wait until we finalise the two processes. The second question was, how do we interact and link with SAPS? We interact at various levels because you have SAPS deployed under the division protection and security services within the precinct itself. Now, you would notice that they are responsible for the outer perimeter, your gates, and your access and egress control. SAPS also operates X-ray machines and metal detectors in buildings. So they are the ones that are handling that particular responsibility, but at 1800 hours in the evening, they withdraw from the buildings. This means they would only man the outer perimeter, the gates, and the patrols, which is their responsibility. Then it means each building would have deployment, which is 24 hours, because we have that four shift system that I would have spoken about, where we have 16 members. Then, we have the second interaction when we do oversight and public hearings. Now we interact with SAPS, all the provincial commissioners from the South African Police Service in terms of services like your visible policing, so there's a visibility so that you wouldn't have the SAPS protection and security services. We only deploy our members from parliamentary protection to scan and provide support for the members and those participating. And then we have the third layer, where we have events. This means that we interact at two levels. You would have the protection security services division within SAPS and the province, which means it is under the Provincial Commissioner and the metros. So in all the nine provinces, we interact at that level. There is also SAPS at the parliamentary villages because we don’t deploy PPS because of capacity. But those are the discussions that we're having. But looking at the precinct itself, we are in discussion with SAPS, and the division PSS to say that it has to be aligned with the Parliament programme. If there's a sitting like now, we can’t have the Hood Hope Chamber being closed, or if there are committees that are sitting. So those are the discussions. We know there are financial implications because the deployment is based on also paying over time.

Adv Adhikarie: Thank you co-chairpersons. The question directed me to the joint committees reporting to the joint sittings. I will look into that. But at present, the rules don't make provision for joint decisions, and it is, in fact, the same report that serves between the two respective Houses. And then just an apology as well. I am told I referred to our budget as 17 and 23 thousand instead of million. So just that correction. Thank you.

Mr Mothapo: I agree about the high cost of mobile data, which is making it difficult for South Africans to connect to Parliament and to follow proceedings. While the cost of mobile data in South Africa has come down since 2019 by over 60% due to the interventions among others of parliamentary committees, it remains very high, especially if you compare with other countries in Africa. So it means that the struggle continues. I think there is a role for Parliament to continue pushing for further cuts in the cost of mobile data to ensure that South Africa…because if you look at the ownership of smartphones by South Africans, it's quite a lot. On average, you have each South African owning about two or three cellphones, so meaning that in terms of access to the internet or YouTube, it is not a problem. They have the gadgets. But I think the problem is the cost. We have about 25 YouTube channels, which carry all the committees of Parliament simultaneously, including the Houses, so that will really actually enable South Africans to be able to observe and to follow the proceedings of Parliament.

Regarding the timeframes and if the concept document has happened, indeed, the concept document has been developed. The accounting officer has approved it. We have been working with the Legal Services drafting unit to make sure that it is refined and ready. The function of a concept document essentially is to identify a problem. There is a need to remedy a legislative gap in terms of enabling Icasa to have a legislative basis to license Parliament so that it can have access to a free platform for its Parliament TV. The function of the concept document is also to propose possible solutions, and then the next step is to initiate stakeholder engagement. So we are busy now with the engagement within Parliament. We are engaging with the relevant committees of Parliament to ensure we can find a possible workable solution to this legislative vacuum. There are various options. You can amend the Financial Management of Parliament Act and include a chapter that allows Parliament to run its own television channel. You can take advantage of the SABC Bill before Parliament to include that kind of legislative mechanism or create new standalone legislation, but that will be the outcome of the process that we are busy undertaking now. In terms of the timeframes, it's difficult because, as the administration, lawmaking is essentially a political process, and we don't have control over it, but we are ensuring that we engage and we support that process to the best possible extent. Thank you very much.

Speaker Didiza: Thank you very much. First, we would like to thank the chairpersons and the Members of the Committee who have enabled us to present the administration's work and how we're seeking to improve in support of the core mandate of the Parliament and its Members. Some of the issues that have been raised are actually proposals on where we can improve, but also others require further clarity. I would also confirm that the political consultation on the strategy has been scheduled for 10 March. What we will try to do is to write to the parties to ask them to look at the strategy, make their comments, so that at least the meeting of 10 March is fruitful, and has the views of the parties, because at the end, the parties are Members who represent their various constituencies. So the ownership of the strategy will have to be by the Members of Parliament. The administration's role will be to support that strategy once the two Houses have agreed. We had made that request last year, and I'm going to make the same request again, to say, before representatives come to the political consultations, they must do consultations within the party, so that various Members within the party can make their inputs on what the strategy should be about. So we'll try and do that. However, resources permitting, STP will have to circulate the draft to all 490 Members so that at least each Member can have the draft strategy, which would also enable them to fully participate in their party consultations before the 10 March consultation.

The issue of Parliament's budget and capacity to support the work is a concern, and I want to appreciate the concerns that members have raised. You have put together all these plans, but what supports them? It calls for us to also do some reflection and rejigging of our own process as the administration, to see whether we continue with what we have had. This includes the vacancies and how we have been functioning with them. I think we need to ask ourselves hard questions to come back to realign some of the processes to execute our mandate. So we've noted those concerns, because, indeed, they're important. But equally for the administration, we will have to relook at how we've been organised and done things before, and whether we can’t deploy technology to actually augment some of the areas where there might be a human element. And I would like to make an example: most of us are now IT compliant. So where you once needed a secretary, is that still necessary if a divisional manager can write an email themselves? So I'm just saying that’s some of the hard questions we will have to ask ourselves regarding our staff complement. We really need to look at whether we really need all of the numbers we have, or if some people can take on other responsibilities without burdening themselves and making themselves perform poorly. So these are some of the issues that I think, as part of our HR and how we deploy our resources, we'll have to look at and see how best we can actually ensure that we do the work without compromising the quality of what we have to do.

Chairperson you have raised a very important issue, which I think goes to the heart of what we need to do. 30 years on, is the legislative architecture we have had still relevant, or is there a need to review and change? I cannot give you an answer now, but I think it's a political question that we have asked, because the issues we are raising might not have been foreseen at that time, but we need to deal with them. I mean, there are some issues I was raising with the STP and legal to say some of the things that have been done as a result of practice, for example, the Speaker and the NCOP Chairperson have to sign to receive notification of papers. So it's not an affidavit, but this has to be done daily because Parliament is a National Key Point. So the sheriff can't just come. So if there is litigation, which is there almost every day, the Speaker must sign that notice to say the papers can be served to Parliament. But that can actually be delegated, instead of delaying litigation because the Speaker or the Chairperson is not always there at the same time. So some of the issues, in my view, need us to relook at them, whether they are still relevant today. The context has changed. Can't we do them differently? So these are some of the issues, in my view, that we need to take into consideration when we reflect on some of these matters.

Similarly, on the issue of the Speakers Forum. When we met as a Speaker's Forum, we did say we will review some of work of the Speakers Forum, but at the same time, ask ourselves the question… some of the decisions or commitments that we've made, do we have the legal framework that strongly supports that, or do we need to review? So we can get back to you as a committee to say, following some of these discussions, what are we proposing? But we do see the relevance of that Forum, because it allows for coordination. After all, we need each other. The legislation that has to go through consultation in the provinces is relevant. Therefore, we need to have a forum where we can even look at how we do things, improve for the better, share experiences, and learn from one another.

We agree that the reports of our international diplomacy need to be tabled. They do get tabled, but maybe when they are tabled in the House, are they of such a nature that all Members can relate to them, particularly if you don't serve in those structures. You'll recall that in the beginning of the term, both Houses will make a nomination of who will serve in the IPU, in CPA, those structures that are multilateral, where we participate on SADC PAP, but not all Members may have an appreciation of what the structures do when they meet. So, how we had been dealing with some of those issues is that reports will be tabled and ATC’d on both Houses regarding the activities. Still, maybe we might need to improve on that one, so that all Members, even if they may not themselves as individuals participating in those forums. Still, they would have an appreciation of the work that is being done and the contribution that their Parliament is making. In other countries, they've got some creative ways of ensuring that all Members can engage in international work. In the UK for example, certain committee rooms are named after multilateral organisations, like the IPU room or the CPU room, so the committee members that serve will be responsible in making sure that once a month they've got a session, maybe after Parliament’s sitting, where Members of Parliament can come and get to know what is happening within the IPU, what are the current debates and issues, what happened in the last meeting, and so forth. So maybe we would have to also look at ourselves, what is the best way of making sure that most of our Members do interact with the work that we are doing internationally as Parliament, because indeed, the Members who serve there are not serving only for themselves, but they represent the institution. Thank you very much.

Ms Clarke: I would just like to make two clarifications on my questions, I think they might have been misunderstood. Regarding the NCOP, I'm well aware of the special delegates. I was a MPL myself. I'm saying that there should be a broader base for us to debate an issue as a special delegate when we go to the NCOP sittings as a special delegate because I was able to do that once. I used one of my NCOP Member’s time, and I got very good benefit from that debate, and that's what I meant. Second, I want to tell Mr Dugmore that I know what a constituency office is, which is number one. Number two is that it was my ignorance in terms of that line item that I misunderstood. I have been elected for 25 years, and I do know what a constituency office is. Thank you.

Mr Dugmore: I never implied…

Chairperson Legkanyane: The matter is buried, and the two honorable members know what a constituency office is. Thank you so much Speaker. Thank you so much for your inspiration and commitment. I believe that the Members are learning very good examples here. For you to come and sit here for three days in a row, and we deal with the business of the Joint Standing Committee in your presence; it's very encouraging, and we want to thank you so much. And maybe one other thing, because I heard there is a matter which came out very sharply here about the payment of registration fees, which we will also discuss between ourselves, whether we will come and demand a report from administration. What happens once those registration fees are paid? How many members pass and how many do not? Maybe the administration or the office of the Speaker may have to find a way to write to whips of parties, once the registrations have been paid, to request them to encourage their Members to apply themselves to their studies. The letter may seem very clumsy, but the weight behind it can never be measured.

I want to thank the support team of this committee because in most cases, we remember the player who scored goals, and the player who made those passes is often not mentioned and does not even appear in historical records. So Cindy, thank you so much as the Committee Secretary for the coordination and everything you have done to allow the Members to come and shine here.

Chairperson Lekganyane also thanked the other support team Members. to a great extent, we are very happy with the quality and credibility of reports that have been presented before the Committee, and for the fact that this was said in your presence as respective leaders of divisions does not mean you must go and sit on your laurels and become complacent. We hope that you will continue to work for this Parliament to the best of your ability, and next time our desires may be that because we now know each other. You have heard the type of questions that were asked, and our meetings would have to be business-like, where you just come with very comprehensive answers, making the Committee's work much easier. Thank you so much to everyone.

There is no meeting tomorrow.

The meeting was adjourned.