Planning meeting

Meeting report

Chairperson's opening comments

The Chairperson welcomed all the Committee Members and thanked them for coming after their interaction with the House Chair and Parliament’s Secretary's Office on 25 November. He was keen on the meeting ending on time because the Auditor-General (AG), Ms Tsakani Maluleke, would present the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA) report to all House Chairs, including the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) and the National Assembly at 12h30. 

He said the AG and the Committee had agreed that they would receive the PFMA report at the same time so that the Members were aware of what the AG was referring to during the interviews that would take place. He added that the following day, the Members would be able to have a long engagement with the AG. 

The Chairperson indicated that there was a minor detail edited regarding the list of what they were asking the Special Investigative Unit (SIU) to do, including having them apply for broader proclamations. This would enable more alignment with the national anti-corruption strategy. He added that the SIU was now being asked to undertake systemic investigations, which meant that they did not look at only one thing, but rather investigated whether there was a problem in the system. He said that the memorandum of understanding (MoU) would reflect this. The MoU did not allocate more power to the Committee or to the SIU, which was not allocated by the Constitution, legislation, and the rules of Parliament. Whatever the Committee did, it needed to comply with the legislation that governs the SIU. 

The AG’s advice to SCOPA in terms of its proceedings was for the Committee to try and drive the worst performing entities towards better audit outcomes. Constant engagement with these entities was crucial. The financial health of state-owned entities (SOEs) also needed to be looked at. It was also important to look at objectives versus the budget spent because there were instances where the objectives were set too low, and the money spent to achieve the objectives was excessive. People often set up their objectives so that they could achieve a clean audit. He added that the AG had said it was important to question whether the money spent had had the impact on the people that it was intended to have. It was also important for the Committee to consider things from a right-to-services perspective, and look at what could be beneficial for people in terms of their socio-economic conditions. 

The Chairperson said that this meeting would have two main discussions. The first was linked to reaching a consensus on what areas to focus on next year, which would enable them to request more detailed presentations on certain things by the AG, SIU, and government departments. The second discussion was linked to the annual financial statements and the audit outcomes. He added that due to the large number of entities, the Committee would be divided into two working groups working independently and presenting to the full Committee. 

Discussion

Mr G Skosana (ANC) said there was a need to focus on the three municipalities that recently had a problematic AG report -- eThekwini, OR Tambo and Ngaka Modiri Molema -- and meet them and the provincial government. The issues regarding OR Tambo municipality were disheartening. In the case of the eThekwini municipality, a large portion of the funds had been given to highly skilled workers. He added that there was a need for a report from the AG to understand the municipality's perspective. 

He said there was a need for a conversation between Eskom and Transnet to discuss opportunities. Meetings with the Minister of Transport also needed to take place to understand their commitment to the problematic situation at hand. 

Ms T Bila (ANC) said that making use of consultants in municipalities was the cause of unnecessary overspending within these municipalities. To assist municipalities, it would be beneficial to make use of employees who were in the Department of Finance to complete their financial statements. This would result in using resources within the House, rather than outsourcing the consultants. She also urged that a strategy must be put in place to avoid the high number of SOEs failing financially. 

Mr P Atkinson (DA) said that a focus on municipalities was important, particularly the OR Tambo municipality and on non-contributing municipalities, as seen with pension funds. People wanted to withdraw money from the two-pot system, but there was a list of 50 or 60 municipalities that had not contributed to the workers' pension fund, ranging from between six months to 10 years. This could lead to strikes by the workers, and deeper investigation was needed into non-contributing municipalities. 

Mr Atkinson said the presentation for oversight of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) had major implications for the security of the country, as it was deteriorating with fewer aeroplanes flying and ships sailing. Another issue raised was that the National Student Financial Aid Scheme (NSFAS) and the National Skills Fund (NSF) were problematic. There was an urgent need to look at this because people would start university next year and the correct application process should be in place. Big businesses also made contributions to the Sector Education and Training Authority (SETA), but there was no value received. He said that businesses saw SETAs as an additional tax, and although they were involved in providing IT services across the government, it remained inefficient. 

Ms H Neale-May (ANC) said that the Committee had looked at SOEs, but there was still a need to monitor Eskom. She added that looking at the legacy reports for areas and municipalities that had been flagged but not attended to would be beneficial because the reports provided good indicators. She said the relationship between the AG and SIU was beneficial, and once the MoU was signed, it would also be helpful. 

She discussed the Makana (Grahamstown) municipality, which celebrated its 120th anniversary at Rhodes University. She had been reading all of their posts on Facebook, and had found what was said about the town concerning. She questioned if this was something that had been missed in the report on what was being done at Makana. 

She said the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa (PRASA) appeared to be progressing until the Committee received the whistleblower information on the pension fund. This was a challenge for staff that had been dismissed and won their cases, and now they were going back to litigation six years later. She was uncertain regarding the reason for PRASA going back to court with external legal companies. She emphasised that it was important to visit Medupi Power Station, but there was a need to return to PRASA, specifically where they make trains, to reconcile what they were doing at these entities. 

Ms T Nontenja (UDM) said there seemed to be a trend at departments and SOEs where there were problematic findings by the AG, that there was a lack of consequence management resulting in the same things being done repeatedly. The Committee should focus on areas where the problematic findings were repeatedly found, to determine whether the department, SOE or municipality was doing anything to improve. She found the OR Tambo case disturbing -- this was an issue that needed more oversight as opposed to just seeing this on paper, because oversight could result in more issues being unearthed that were not initially in reports. It would enable the Committee to check whether the structures were in place and effective for the entity or municipality to rely on. 

Mr E Madlala (MK) said there needed to be a strategy to monitor consequence management, because there was a link between a lack of consequence management and high levels of maladministration and corruption. Due to the nature of corruption being institutionalised, it required corrective measures which were being not taken, and this acted as an enabler of corruption. It was important to dismantle the institutionalisation of corruption.

Targets also needed to be monitored closely. Institutions like Denel and municipalities required close monitoring. This would involve the proposal of having working groups focusing on certain areas so that reports could be looked at to monitor the progress of these entities in achieving their targets, as well as looking at the challenges they face.

Mr Madlala added that the country lacked a preventive strategy for corruption. There was not an integrated approach to preventing corruption, as the mechanisms and resources were equipped to deal with corruption only reactively. Not enough was being done to sensitise communities about the effects of corruption. 

Mr F Essack (DA) said that they had received many problematic reports over the last five months, and the Committee needed to be strategic and identify the core issues that affected South Africans the most. He made an example using the South African Post Office and said it served a critical need for people in rural areas, small towns, and communities, as it performed many functions. He added that the Committee should be thinking strongly about the core issues that have led people down in terms of service delivery. 

The Chairperson agreed with the suggestions made by the Committee. He said the Committee should focus on the efficient use of public money because one could not have government paying more than the private sector for the same goods or services. Due to the budget cuts, getting the most value out of every rand was important. It was also important to prevent the loss of public money. He added that it was also important to target the issues that affect most South Africans, because the Committee could not focus on all of the issues, such as electricity, water, and municipalities. He added that it was also important to focus on skills training so that South Africans were equipped to look for jobs and start businesses, which included SETAs, NSFAS, and the NSF.

He said there was a need to focus on transport and logistics. The Road Traffic Management Corporation (RTMC) and Road Accident Fund (RAF) were important too. The RAF was not solely a funding model, but it ensured that as many claims as possible were paid out within what was allowed in the legislation.

The Chairperson provided the Committee with their working groups, and asked if they agreed. 

Mr Atkinson said that many of the issues dealt with by the Committee were cross-cutting, as seen when discussing skills which stemmed from NSFAS and the SETAs. One of the main issues for the SANDF was that there was a lack of skills to repair boats, which was directly linked to skills training in South Africa. He stressed that by resolving one of the issues, other issues would, in turn, also be resolved. 

The Chairperson agreed, and suggested additional partners to the Committee, such as the Deputy President, the Public Service Commission (PSC) and the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA). In terms of the frequency of reporting, it should also make use of the Accountant General, as well as the Chief Procurement Office. This would enable the Committee to decide what kind of input was required when it came to presentations. 

Ms Nontenja said it was important to monitor how the problematic departments, SOEs or municipalities were dealing with issues that were raised by the AG. There was a need to know how these entities were resolving their matters compared to previous years, so as not to repeat them. 

The Chairperson said that the Public Protector should be present at Committee meetings to discuss matters at hand, such as looking at administration. He added that the Public Protector refers people for prosecution in the same way as the SIU. Hence, involving the Public Protector by referring cases to them would be beneficial to monitoring how work is being done. 

Mr Atkinson said that including the Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse (OUTA) would be beneficial in the areas that the Committee focused on, because they had information that would be useful when investigating a relevant issue. He added that doing this would allow the Committee to gain information about the area that other entities, such as the SIU or AG, did not have.  

The Chairperson said that the Committee should establish a principle that enables consistency when dealing with other entities. With the history of witness intimidation, and the police at police stations not being trustworthy, people tended to approach certain bodies with whistle-blowing, such as journalists, OUTA and Open Secrets. It was important to interact with civil society organisations (CSOs) that were relevant to the work of the Committee, while also setting up rules of engagement that were transparent with each of the CSOs. 

He said they did not make enough use of public engagements, and that he would see the House Chair and the Speaker on 27 November. He would request more resources to do public engagements, because people were unable to come and sit in Parliament where the meetings take place. 

The Committee went through the working groups, and the SCOPA group's annual report analysis. 

Mr Atkinson asked if the alternate Members would be included in these groups. 

The Chairperson responded that if a party caucus decided there was an alternate with a lot of capacity to engage, he would welcome it if they could engage consistently. 

Mr Atkinson asked if these meetings would be held during the SCOPA meetings on Tuesday and Wednesday.

The Chairperson replied that they would be allowed to meet on Fridays. 

Mr Skosana asked how the process would unfold for Friday meetings, to deal with the two groups.

The Chairperson replied that he had a similar concern. He added that the Committee needed to support the support staff, as they made summaries of various issues, which would reduce some of the workload for the Committee Members.

Mr Atkinson said that the Johannesburg Art Gallery was not included in the Sport, Arts, Culture and Recreation report. The gallery should be included because it is a valuable collection, and some of the collection has been damaged by water. There had been oversight conducted by the Johannesburg caucus that had found instances of general neglect in the Johannesburg Art Gallery that required attention. 

The Chairperson said he would note that.

Mr Skosana raised the issue of alternates, and asked if the Committee should accommodate them in the groups. 

The Chairperson responded that the caucus should address the alternates in the same way as the MKP and EFF do. They should choose someone reliable who could be with the Committee and was knowledgeable about the workstream of Members. 

Ms Neale-May said that Parliament would go on recess from 5 or 9 December, and asked how much work was expected from the Committee until then. She also wanted to know when the Committee would recommence in January. 

Ms Ntombi Nkabinde, Committee Secretary, said that the Committee was expected to be back at the end of January, and it would be beneficial to complete the oversight before the State of the Nation Address (SONA). She added that the upcoming week’s programme had changed, and she would need to check with the National Assembly before confirming with the Committee. At the moment, there is nothing scheduled for next week.  

The meeting was adjourned