Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation 2023/24 Annual Performance Plan; with Deputy Minister

Meeting report

Opening remarks by the Chairperson

The Chairperson greeted everyone in the meeting and went through the agenda for the meeting.

Consideration and adoption of Committee minutes

The Select Committee went through the minutes of the meeting of 03 May 2023.

Mr M Rayi (ANC, Eastern Cape) reminded the Chairperson that the Department of Public Service and Administration had to submit written responses due to the lack of time.

The minutes of the meeting of 03 May 2023 were adopted.

Opening remarks by Deputy Minister Pinky Sharon Kekana

Deputy Minister in the Presidency for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, Pinky Sharon Kekana, greeted everyone in attendance. She said that the presentations will be done and thereafter, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation (DPME) will respond to all the clarity-seeking questions. She informed the Select Committee that the Minister is engaged in other matters. She said that the Select Committee is aware that the DPME is a standalone department and its focus going forward will be on national planning for the three spheres of government. The planning of the entire government will be the focus of the DPME. The monitoring and evaluation the three spheres of government and its entities is an area of priority. She said that what prompted the President to do this was because of the lack of coordination and for the improvement of the national development plan. There are only seven years left to meet the 2030 targets. She said that the current approach, will allow the DPME to reprioritise and ensure that there is one plan that speaks to the entire government that will be responsive to some of the challenges it is confronting. She said that this will not take long as the Minister will take the lead and ensure other people such as this Select Committee are on board with the approach insofar as planning, monitoring and evaluation is concerned.

Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation Annual Performance Plans and Strategic Plan 2023/24

Mr Robert Nkuna, Director-General, DPME, greeted everyone and said that a number of officials were present in the meeting to respond to any of the questions.

Mr Clement Madale, Director: Strategy and Service Delivery Support, DPME, took the Select Committee through the presentation.

The work of the DPME is organised into five branches.

Programme one: Administration

This programme comprises the ministry, departmental management, corporate services and financial administration. The programme aims to provide strategic leadership, management and support services to the DPME. The outcome is to achieve an efficient and effective department characterised by good corporate governance and ethical leadership. The key deliverables to achieve the objectives are an unqualified audit opinion; to conduct disaster management risk assessment, recruitment planning for youth (35%), people with disabilities (2%) and women (50%) in the senior management service level; automation of business processes to enhance efficiency and effectiveness; to target procurement to previously disadvantaged individuals for youth (30%), people with disabilities (7%) and women (40%) and to pay suppliers within 30 days of submission of valid invoices.

Programme two: National Planning Commission

This programme comprises the national planning commission secretariat in the economy, social protection, governance and research, and partnerships and development sector. Further, it consists of planning alignment, planning coordination, resource planning, and spatial planning. The purpose of the programme is to guide and advise on national and long-term development planning, to monitor the implementation of the national development plan and to mobilise the country to support the plan. The outcome to be achieved is long-term development agenda institutionalised in support of the implementation of the national development plan; evidence to support the country’s developmental agenda generated; and citizens and stakeholder engagement.

Programme three: Sector monitoring

This programme consists of the management of sector monitoring, outcome monitoring and intervention support. This programme aims to monitor government performance against the seven priorities of government. The outcome to be achieved is improved government accountability in the implementation of service delivery programmes and projects; and improved government planning, implementation, monitoring, evaluation and citizen oversight. A number of assessments will be undertaken on gender-based violence and interventions in enhancing artisan intake.

Programme four: Public sector monitoring

This programme comprises public sector monitoring and support management, public sector capacity development, frontline and monitoring support, capacity development coordination, and public service. This programme aims to support the implementation of the medium-term strategic framework by monitoring and improving the capacity of state institutions to develop and implement plans and provide services. A number of reports will be done to determine the impact of the socio-economic factors on programmes, reports on the state of frontline service delivery disaggregate and others.

Programme five: Evaluations, evidence and knowledge systems

The programme includes evaluations, research and knowledge management, and data integration and analysis. This programme aims to coordinate and support the generation, collation, accessibility and timely use of quality evidence to support performance monitoring and evaluation across government. The outcome directly supported by this programme is improved government planning, implementation, monitoring, evaluation and citizen oversight. This will be done by producing evidence plans and reports; four evaluation reports; two research assignments completed with development indicators report; development of the central data management and analytical systems to enhance data harvesting and analysis to support planning and implementation monitoring.

Financial plan 2023-2024

Ms Camagwini Ntshinga, Chief Financial Officer, DPME, took the Select Committee through the 2023/24 financial plan. The budget allocation for 2023/24 is R475.8m, with a negative growth of R5.5m less than the 2022/23 allocation, which translates to a 1% reduction. There is also a projected shortfall in the current financial year for the compensation of employees.

(Please see the presentation attached for further details)

Discussion

Mr T Brauteseth (DA, KZN) referred to the budget itself and table 9.1 and said there is a decline in research projects, stakeholder engagements and assessment reports that are vital to informing the direction of the DPME. Why has the DPME gone from full research projects a year to only one in many instances? There is heavy expenditure on administration as opposed to capacity development. He said in his opinion that the DPME’s priorities are skewed towards administration and staff employment as opposed to actual capacity programmes in terms of enabling the state and making it a capable state. The DPME is responsible for planning, monitoring and evaluation but not for implementation. He asked if the DPME could respond to this in writing because he understood that this would require a bit of work. After the planning, monitoring and evaluation process that the DPME has followed since 2019, how many recommendations have been made to client departments and how many of those departments have actually implemented the recommendations? How effective is the work towards client departments? Has the DPME ever conducted a study to establish on a percentage basis how many of the National Development Plan (NDP) goals have been achieved? For instance, since the start of the published publication of the NDP until now. Have 30%, 40%, 50% or 60% of the goals been achieved yet? He asked if there is a study that will be able to speak to this. If not, the DPME should urgently conduct such a study. He said in his mind, it is just drifting and there is no benchmark to say that since the publication of the NDP, the DPME has managed to achieve a percentage towards the end goal of 2030.

Mr Rayi said that people are still learning the mandate and that the presentation speaks about planning, monitoring and evaluation. It is important to know what the DPME has been able to monitor and evaluate. Is it true that the DPME is not an implementing department? In the national, provincial and local government there are many challenges. There are especially a lot of challenges on the local government level. He asked if a report on these challenges could be provided. So far, there is this impression that the DPME only monitors the higher level and is not monitoring what is happening on the ground. It depends on the reports it receives from the departments and provinces. He said this is the feeling he gets but that he is subjected to be corrected on that view. He suggested that the DPME monitors what happens on the ground, review the issues at the departments and see if any improvements can be made.

He mentioned that in another meeting, issues around the economic cluster were raised that should have been monitored by the DPME. There were questions about the issues of the roads that have been impacted by the floods in KZN, North West and other areas. He asked whether the DPME would be coming in on this issue because he noticed the monitoring of the programme and that there is a disaster management unit that is supposed to be monitoring what is happening on the ground. He said that at the end of last year, in the annual report, there were some issues of irregular expenditure that were increased to R14.3m; there were some investigations underway; consequence management; and applying for condonation from National Treasury. He said the Select Committee is still awaiting an update on this.

There was an issue on the merger between Brand SA and South African tourism that had to be responded to and the two positions for director and deputy director. There was a report outstanding for regular appointments that took place between 2018 and 2020. There was an investigation for irregular expenditure for R58 000 and R808 000. He asked for an update on this. The executive committee did not yet approve the risk and corruption and integrity management implementation plan. He asked for an update on these plans.

He also asked about the issue of provinces not submitting the number of assessment reports. He said that when it comes to performance plans, there is only a focus on two programmes and not the other programmes such as the special economic zones, the black industrialists and other programmes relating to small business development. Why is it only focusing on two programmes? What is the effect on DPME relating to the fact that it does not have legislation for its mandate and the challenges that it is facing? He said that there was a bill on integrated planning at some point and that there is a fear that the departments and provinces will not be happy about it. Does this mean that the legislation will not come to Parliament due to that fear?

The Chairperson said that the programme of public sector monitoring speaks about being expanded. He said that he understood that this had to be on the radar. He said that he understood the role that those sectors play in addressing the structural challenges that continue to inhibit growth. There should be more focus on economic growth. He asked if one positive message could be sent out to the public that relates to the importance of the NDP. This message should not raise any doubts about the targets being achieved. He said that he appreciated the fact that all seven priorities were adopted. He said that in terms of the posture on international relations, tons of software could be considered. What could be the multi-generation around this? Should the importance of social competence not be an area of prioritisation? It should be able to solidify social compact. The Department of Employment and Labour has announced that it is addressing the economic challenges and therefore rallying the three partners to commit and focus on the business plan. He suggested that the DPME give one reason at least for the importance of this on the radar. He said while being mindful of administration and the issue of reconfiguration and given the analysis that was done, this is one of the areas that could be on the agenda. He referred to a study that was done at some point which recommended the need to support businesses, whether it is economic development. It would help the entities to revert back to their mother department. One of the solutions provided was to ensure that there is alignment in terms of the work that is being done. The presidential council should look into this aspect. As far as the budget reduction is concerned, are these the constraints as a whole or fiscal consolidation? There was an overall decrease but programme four was increased. What is the reason for this?

Mr M Dangor (ANC, Gauteng) said that the potential rationalisation of departments, entities and programmes of the next three years was raised during the 2023 State of the Nation Address. National Treasury estimates that the country could achieve a potential of R27b as a medium term. How is the DPME going to address this by not only focusing on the outcome but their issue with the output?

Responses

Deputy Minister Kekana said that as far as the rationalisation of government departments is concerned, the Minister is going to lead some of the things. The DPME will make inputs because it is responsible for planning, monitoring and evaluation. The DPME will be working closely with National Treasury. This is one of the top priorities. The State of the Nation Address pronouncements are something that the DPME looks at. The DPME has no entities, so everything has migrated to the Minister in the Presidency. She said it would be looking at the progress of the merger between Brand SA and SA Tourism from a monitoring and evaluation point of view. She said that historical information about this can be provided to the Select Committee. There are historical reports on the breakdown of recommendations to departments that bring their annual performance plans. It has to go through Cabinet and then to the Select Committee. She said that this information could be shared and an update could be provided so that it could be tabled accordingly. The DPME had raised its issues regarding legislation to ensure that everybody can be aligned accordingly and that planning is centrally located and there is compliance.

Mr Nkuna delegated the team to answer specific questions. He said that the DPME does engage with the departments to ensure that the information they provide is verified and monitors what has been observed. This is tantamount and will be seen in the reports shared with the Select Committee. As far as the issue of roads is concerned, although not indicated in the annual performance plans as it is seen as an operational issue, but it is looking at service level agreements with the offices of the premier in the different provinces since it has a similar mandate as that of the DPME. He said that a lot of work has to be done at that level. The sharing of information should be improved because the offices of the premier are always on the ground in different areas. There are some replicas of what the DPME is, although they are smaller. The DPME is working with the Development Bank of Southern Africa and is currently in the process of finalising the evaluation of the entire economic reconstruction and recovery programme, which was launched by the President a while ago. In this space, it is working with many other economic issues. The process is ongoing and the DPME is looking at industrial parks in rural areas. Some areas still have infrastructure and it will be possible to achieve local economic development in those areas. This is the reason emphasis has been placed on industrial parks. The DPME is working on evaluating the economic reconstruction and recovery programme which will be completed at the end of May 2023. The DPME is willing to share with Parliament, its findings on the overall economic performance of the government. The budget reduction is putting strain on the work of many people in the DPME. Many of the officials have to do work with limited resources. The DPME has lost 29 funded positions during COVID-19. He said that when National Treasury was looking for money to finance the recommendations interventions for the pandemic, budget cuts were needed and the 29 funded positions were lost. There is a risk now that with the budget cuts, the National Planning Commission and the DPME would be on their knees with nothing. The DPME is asking Parliament to pay attention to how the budget cuts would affect the performance of the DPME. There are so many people in the DPME but less money for research. He said most of the work in the DPME and the National Planning Commission is done internally. The DPME has engaged with the Department of Employment and Labour on the matter of social compacting. There is a big attempt to have one social compact. The DPME is advising that sectors must have their own social compacts so that there is a big one along with subsidiary ones that speak to different sectors. This recommendation has been made to the Department of Employment and Labour. The report will be shared with Parliament with regard to the state of things and the performance of the government.

Dr Annette Griessel, Deputy Director-General: National Planning Coordination, DPME, said that the DPME is the custodian of the overall country’s planning system which consists of multiple components. She said the DPME would be happy to present this to the Select Committee at any time. However, it consists of many parts, including the NDP and annual performance plans. There are the long-medium term planning, the national, provincial and local government plans and the district development model plans. There are also national infrastructure plans, operational plans, programme plans and spatial development plans. She said that at both the national and local government, there are spatial development frameworks. In addition, there are annual local government plans for service delivery and budget implementation plans. He said as far as the DPME exerting its influence is concerned, there are quantitative and qualitative data around one of the approaches that the DPME uses, which is called the theory of change. In other words, DPME would have developed its own theory of change in terms of how it contributes towards improving the country’s development results. Some of the reforms that have been introduced are the policy framework for integrated planning that Cabinet has approved. This looks at the way in which the different components of the planning system fit together to ensure that there is alignment as indicated in the NDP. Many of the priorities get expressed within the angle of performance plans. The DPME has focused on those for the 2023/24 financial year to deliver on the development priorities but also to lay the basis for improving the results in the medium-long term. A circular was conducted around this issue based on the Cabinet decisions and government priorities. The departments have used an annual performance plan self-assessment rating tool to do their own assessments. This considers both the issues of alignment with the revised framework for strategic plans which speaks to the methodology of how planning should be undertaken at the institutional level and the various drafts of the annual performance plans. There is direct feedback from the accounting officers of the national and provincial departments and there has been subsequent analysis of alignment. For example, alignment with the State of the Nation Address commitments. Those of an output strategic nature find their way into the annual performance plans of the departments as well as the budgets of the departments.

She said that for the medium term strategic framework, the DPME has developed an annual budget prioritisation framework which goes throughout the budget process which is able to look at the extent of influence in the alignment of the budgets which remains the decision of National Treasury. It looks at the alignment of the budget compared with the priorities of the government. The DPME looks at the alignment of the economic reconstruction and recovery programme and the alignment of the annual performance plans. There is no point in having an economic reconstruction and recovery programme if it does not find its way into the annual performance plans. It is looking at expanding employment by introducing some new elements. The issue of just transition framework is very new. Cabinet adopted it last year, but the DPME feels that given the threat of climate change, there is a need to promote more sustainable development and that the just transition framework should find its way into the plans of national and provincial departments and public entities. There has to be an infrastructure-led economic recovery. The national and provincial government is still adjusting to some of the plans, such as the district development model. She said there is a need for the government to increasingly develop its ability to specialise its planning not just to have an aggregated national plan but to be able to disaggregate the plans within districts and metropolitan areas. It needs to work towards the specialisation of budgets of all spheres of government. She said that risk mitigation is very important. As far as disaster risk reduction is concerned, there are multiple areas of influence. The DPME has been working with the Department of Cooperative Governance on the District Development Model in analysing the first generation plans. There have been sessions with provinces and there has been feedback on what has been learned during the sessions. Full participation is needed for the development of these plans. There is one plan so that each district and metropolitan area can have a much more integrated coherent planning but to also participate in society. The plans are supposed to include participation of businesses and civil society. The issues around spatial are important for the national and provincial spatial development frameworks. Catalytical projects are critical drivers in particular spaces, such as the Northern Cape's green hydrogen project. The DPME can, with the support of the Minister, provide more detailed inputs, including quantitative and qualitative assessments on the alignment of the annual performance indicators with the various policy frameworks.

Ms Mmakgomo Tshatsinde, Deputy Director-General: Sector Monitoring, DPME, said that the DPME is responsible for monitoring the departments and all the sectors. The DPME is monitoring the government's seven priorities, which is reported to Cabinet. She said that the medium term strategic framework is five year chunk of the implementation of the NDP and information that has been collected and monitored over the years. Feedback is also provided on how the NDP is being implemented and what has been achieved/not achieved. The DPME is not only looking at the inputs of departments but there is also administrative data. The DPME looks at the various information it can receive from a number of institutes, such as Statistics South Africa, where the officials do fieldwork and case studies in communities. The DPME works together as a whole, whether planning, monitoring and evaluation. The officials are always on the frontline, which is the footprint of how the DPME does sector monitoring. There are outcome facilitators to ensure that the NDP and annual performance plans are implemented to a large extent. So, when a report is made to Cabinet, it is based on the things that have been achieved. The reporting by the DPME is always based on the outcomes and impact because it considers all the inputs of the budget and all the activities happening. It is a bi-annual report but quarterly reports are received. She said that monitoring is a continuous process. After this has been reported to Cabinet, the DPME write letters to the Ministers, Directors-General and so forth to deal with the recommendations made and if Cabinet has actually resolved what needs to be done. This can become an effective tool for following up on what has been achieved/not achieved. It takes about two to three days for Cabinet to report back on every aspect of the seven priorities. In terms of methodology, it uses multiple sources of information and instruments to verify the information. The information is verified from different angles and that helps the DPME to become independent and able to do its work without interference from any other person. She said that effort is being made when it comes to evidence. There is the evidence unit and the evaluations that have been implemented. This becomes an integral part of the feedback and is connected to the public sector monitoring assessments. These reports are available. She said the committees only ask DPME to present when the departments present their annua reports. The mid-term report for the previous year has been completed and that information can be shared with the Select Committee.

Dr Kefiloe Masiteng, Head of Secretariat (Acting): National Planning Commission Office, DPME, said that most of the report that is implemented is based on the reports from sector monitoring. The national development plan was established in 2018 and in the monitoring and implementation report, it said that in the first six years of the implementation of the NDP is based on how far it has come. Some actions were highlighted at the time, and the major issues identified are that the implementation is fragmented, with no alignment and no coordination. The DPME had to see how it could help government coordinate better. This work has started to create some of the framework and advise on how to implement it better. At that time, 30% of the actions were on track and that also gave birth to what was implemented between 2019/20 which was the first review of the NDP. In that review, it showed that the economy was not growing to change the lives of the people. There were inroads in the social sector and the life expectancy reached 70-75 years. Education was approaching universal access but there was still an issue with the quality of education. The issues of attainment and numbers of PhDs and the increase in TVET colleges, but the infrastructure was not perfect or not moving. It looked at the critical issues of governance and how the government organises itself. The critical issues dealt with the capacity of the state; crime and corruption within the public sector, and most of the expected goals have not been met. The government has already started to put in measures to ensure that it is building a capable state such as appointing the head of public service in the Presidency, the framework for professionalisation of the public sector is underway, and the advice to the department and school of government. These are some of the things that took place after 2020. The indicators have been tracked and about 78 of them have been pulled together to measure. On the website, there is a report called the implementation of the NDP Indicators which was shared in December 2021/22. It looks at the different departments that are not pulling properly. It was decided that every year this list of indicators will be published. In 2022, 50 of the 78 indicators were on track and the others were achieved. By 2023, the population of South Africa would be about 58m, which calls for South Africa to start looking at the impact of that population growth on the economy and the resources in the country. Social protection has increased but the numbers of poverty, inequality and unemployment have continued to grow. These are some of the critical issues that have not been met and the basic threat of poverty, inequality and unemployment that are being fought. These may become priorities beyond the NDP 2030 but these should be accelerated between now and 2030. It is currently finalising the ten-year review of the implementation of the NDP. It will indicate where it has failed the country and how the NDP can be better implemented. She said that it is aware of the challenges of COVID-19 and the disasters that could not have been predicted. A number of the recommendations by the national planning commission and the DPME have been implemented in the bill that the DPME is working on.

The issues of institutionalising planning and moving in the correct direction on matters of water security. There is a report that has been given to the DPME and the report is in line with what was advised by the national planning commission and some of the advice in the energy paper that was produced in 2018 has been considered. The presidential climate commission was one of the recommendations of the National Planning Commission. It is about ensuring the country moves towards a low carbon economy. She addressed the issue of professionalisation of the public sector and building a capable state. She said there is a bill in which the recommendations of the National Planning Commission in terms of the National Health Insurance (universal health for all) were undertaken. She said that it is working with National Treasury and the Developmental Bank of Southern Africa to help understand how the economic reconstruction and recovery programme can be evaluated. On most of the recommendations made, it seems as if the departments and entities are on board. She said that she looks forward to the publication of the ten-year review on implementing the NDP. It will be socialised across society within the public sector, civil society and within Parliament.

Ms Ntshinga said that the budget for programme one seems top heavy but one needs to be mindful that the budget accounts for the budget allocations for the three principals. This is besides the office of the Director-General and Deputy but also accounts for rental property payment and payment of external auditors. She said that because of the nature of programme one, most of the budget material is located in that. The total irregular expenditure for the financial year spiked materially because of the R14m transaction. The DPME is still in the progress of investigating the transaction. The accounting officer will implement consequence management as soon as the report is issued and the investigation is finalised. The other transactions that formed part of the closing balance of irregular expenditure have been investigated and consequence management has been implemented. The accounting officer has delegated some of the transactions for condonation. The same has been done for the fruitless and wasteful expenditure where the transactions have been investigated and consequence management has been implemented. Some of the transactions have been condoned and some have been recovered. She said because of fiscal constraints, many departments had to make budget cuts in each programme.

Mr Thomas Nkosi, Deputy Director-General (Acting): Corporate Services, DPME, said there have been some delays in rectifying irregular appointments between 2018 and 2020. The Chairperson had fallen ill and the process has had to be restarted and is currently ongoing. The DPME has been engaging with the Public Service Commission.

Mr Nkuna said that this was all from the DPME side.

Mr Madale informed the Select Committee that two questions in the Zoom chat box had not been responded to.

The Chairperson said that Mr Nkuna could respond to these questions or delegate it to his team.

Mr Nkuna said that it had responded to all the questions and would also provide some responses in writing as requested.

The Chairperson informed Mr Nkuna that he was speaking about the questions that Ms B Mathevula (EFF, Limpopo) left in the chat box. She wanted to know whether the DPME has received orders for the past financial year and what plan the DPME has put in place to protect those who report corruption.

Mr Nkuna apologised and said that he would respond to the questions. He said that the DPME is looking forward to receiving another clean audit. He said that he knows the DPME is a small department but it is true to say that not all small departments and entities get clean audits. The DPME is currently working with service delivery departments to assist with interventions. The DPME does protect the people that disclose wrongdoings and so far, there has not been any complaint that it has not been doing so. There are instances where colleagues do prefer to go to the Public Service Commission. As a result, many disclosures are received from the Public Service Commission. It has been engaged with the Public Service Commission to extend its service to state entities. He said that he did not have a problem with colleagues going to the Public Service Commission because it is one of the measures that have been introduced by the democratic state to deal with these challenges. However, internal complaints and disclosures are received and the DPME deals with it.

Follow-up questions

The Chairperson said that the mission and mandate of the DPME are now clear. The Select Committee now also understands what institutionalisation plays, especially in critical programmes and interventions. He thanked the officials for the responses. He said that the DPME functions and powers are mostly on the national level and asked how it finds expression at the provincial level. He said because of the nature of government, departments have to rely on government to implement policies. What is being done to comfort the community that things are being done? Some things are critical, especially the interventions at provincial and local government level. He said that he is mindful of the fact that government is a separate district but an interdependent body. The Constitution makes this clear.

Mr Rayi said that the Minister of Electricity recently indicated that when he was the head of infrastructure, he looked at the investments taking place in the country and found that the main investments are in the Western Cape, Cape Town to be exact. There is a problem of spatial development, especially in rural areas. He asked how the roads and other development plans are integrated into the NDP. The issue of ensuring that economic development takes place outside the three main corridors is something that the DPME should be looking at. He suggested that the DPME look at the budget of departments to see where it goes. For instance, the Department of Trade Industry and Competition has a budget of R10.9b. Where does this R10.9b go to? He said one finds that very little goes to rural areas. What is the level of consequence management for provinces where money has been allocated for infrastructure, such as schools, but the funds have not been used, resulting in continuous infrastructure challenges? What does DPME do in this regard? Sometimes there is no consequence management. The DPME has a role in recommending consequence management. He said that he was under the impression that the responses to fruitless and wasteful expenditure would be specific. He made an example of the issue of R808 000 relating to the damage to a vehicle however only general responses were given.

Responses

Mr Nkuna said that the DPME is paying attention to the situation in provinces. He said that coordination platforms have been created. There is no difference in how the national and provincial departments play because it follows similar guidelines through the instruments that the DPME created. He said that earlier, he made mention of the service level agreements that will be entered into in the office of the premier in the various provinces. This will help to ensure that the Directors-General take responsibility to augment what the DPME is doing with less than 400 people including the national planning commission. This will be pursued to ensure coordination at the provincial level. All the Directors-General have to be on board first.

One of the DPME's concerns is that it does many referrals from the presidential hotline but finds that the rate of responses from provinces has not been satisfying. This has to be included when there are engagements with provinces because this will help ensure a relationship between the DPME and the provinces. The rural development strategy has been finalised and the DPME will engage with the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. All departments have to be involved in rural development including the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition. The DPME is engaging with the relevant departments on the implementation of the rural development strategy. Many issues have been observed in local government. One of the big issues is the political-administrative interface. He said that at some point, it would have to come back to this level with the Department of Cooperative Governance to have a serious discussion on what can be done going into the next administration. He said that some changes are required although the DPME has done everything at the administrative level, the challenges remain. The DPME can come back to the Select Committee and present what has been done regarding disaster management. Currently, the DPME is leading the review of the entire disaster management system in the country. The DPME has been looking at the current disaster management system in South Africa and has found some serious gaps. If it is not fixed, South Africa will continue to have problems. There is an issue around water and the DPME has gone to Cabinet to indicate the problems it has with electricity will likely happen to water. Some municipalities are currently struggling to pay for the water boards. The DPME recommended that it rethink how municipalities are funded because most municipalities struggle to generate revenue. The current situation with electricity will make matters worse. Recommendations have been made to protect the water sector. There have been issues around section 139 of the Constitution, which provinces use to intervene in local government. It has dealt with a case in the North West, where the provincial government was under administration but wanted it to be under the administration of some entity. It was during this time that the DPME had to intervene. The Mopani district municipality has now taken the premier to court, saying that the premier can place the district from section one to nine. A national spatial development framework needs to be translated into local spaces. The DPME will identify areas or municipalities that need the support of the DPME to have their own spatial development framework. This will ensure that the challenges in those areas are resolved. The government has lost control over a number of areas such as the rivers. It is struggling with the same situation in all the parts of the North West for the same reason where people have for a very long time stayed in a particular area which was safe but was struck by the disaster such as floods and as a result, the areas are unsafe. It is a struggle to take these people to another area because demands are being made that they want decent housing. This will encourage people to stay in unsafe places because they know that when the government intervenes (in case of a disaster), they are going to get a better settlement. The goal of the DPME is not to solve individual problems but to assist in ensuring that these challenges are resolved throughout the Republic of South Africa. He said the questions have now been responded to and would be willing to provide some written responses if needed.

Closing remarks by the Chairperson

The Chairperson thanked Mr Nkuna for coming back to respond to some of the follow-up questions. The Select Committee is happy with the manner in which the DPME has responded to the questions and the discussion points that were raised. He extended a word of gratitude on behalf of the Select Committee to everyone at the DPME for its work. He said that the officials of the DPME are allowed to exit the meeting.

Committee study tour update

Mr Hlupheka Mtileni, Committee Secretariat, informed the Select Committee about Germany and stakeholder engagements for 03-07 July 2023. He took the Select Committee through the various stakeholder engagement requests for Germany and said that some engagements had not been considered or no responses were given. It is still waiting on the United Kingdom and there is nothing tangible. He said that time is running out and therefore, he has been looking at getting quotations for logistics.

Dr Anneke Clark, Committee Content Advisor, said the United Kingdom had confirmed its availability. In the last engagement with the embassies, it was agreed that the final programme should be received from the United Kingdom and Germany by no later than 14 May 2023.

The Chairperson asked how far the approval is in terms of the parliamentary process.

Mr Mtileni said that the approval would occur as soon as the quotations are received.

Mr Brauteseth said that he did not see anything relating to transport or public works for the Germany programme. He also informed the Chairperson that he was waiting on the official letter for him to apply for a passport.

Mr Rayi suggested that there be a timeline for Germany for next week. If nothing happens, the Select Committee should proceed with the United Kingdom. There are a lot of people that have to sign for approval and they are not always available.

Mr Dangor said that he was covered by Mr Rayi but informed the Select Committee that the Ambassador of the United Kingdom in South Africa indicated he was available to assist with taking things further.

He had connection issues and was cut off.

The Chairperson suggested that Mr Dangor organise a meeting for the Select Committee to speed up this process. He said that the meeting could be virtual.

Mr Rayi supported the suggestion.

The Chairperson said that the political principal and administration process has to start. Mr Dangor should organise a meeting with the Ambassador of the United Kingdom for the Select Committee to finalise the matter next week.

Mr Mtileni said that the Chairperson and Mr Rayi should interact with their political people. He mentioned that this process already started last year.

Mr Dangor returned to the meeting and said he would assist the Select Committee with a meeting with the Ambassador of the United Kingdom.

The Chairperson said there will be a meeting with the Ambassador to the United Kingdom next week. The administrative hiccups must be unlocked.

Mr Brauteseth informed the Chairperson that the letter he needed for the passport had not been responded to.

Mr Mtileni said that he would do a follow-up.

The Chairperson asked whether the office of international relations might be able to help.

Mr Rayi said agreed.

The Chairperson said that a follow-up will be made on this matter and Mr Dangor will also assist with the United Kingdom matter. He thanked the Members of the Select Committee for their valuable input.

The meeting was adjourned.