Prevention and Combating of Hate Crimes and Hate Speech Bill: finalisation; with Deputy Minister
Justice and Constitutional Development
21 February 2023
Chairperson: Mr G Magwanishe (ANC)
Meeting Summary
The Portfolio Committee convened in a virtual meeting to discuss the finalisation of the Prevention and Combating of Hate Crimes and Hate Speech Bill. It was taken through and voted on the final version of the Bill.
Among the various options, the majority view of the Committee supported:
- The inclusion of "utterance" as part of the definition of communications for hate speech;
- The inclusion of age, AIDS, language, occupations and trades, political affiliation or conviction as characteristics for hate crimes;
- A broader scope of grounds which could constitute hate speech;
- Harsher sentencing for people in contravention of the Act; and
- A more limited version of exemption.
The Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, ACDP and the Freedom Front Plus reserved their rights on the Bill.
In addition to the finalisation of the bill, the Committee discussed the logistics for the workshop which would take place on Tuesday and Wednesday the following week.
The Committee also expressed its displeasure at the absence of executives of the Legal Practice Council for the scheduled meeting on the following day. It was of the view that the outstanding matter was of a serious nature, and the issue of their absence would need to be taken up with the ministry for its urgent intervention.
Meeting report
The Chairperson welcomed Members of the Committee, and guests in attendance and acknowledged the presence of the Deputy Minister, Mr John Jeffery. He outlined the procedure for the meeting, and suggested that Mr Henk du Preez, State Legal Advisor, Department of Justice, should read out the various options before Members voted on each option.
Deputy Minister Jeffery indicated he had no opening remarks, and invited Mr Du Preez to continue.
Finalisation of the Prevention and Combating of Hate Crimes and Hate Speech Bill
Opposition party Members -- Mr W Horn (DA), Mr J Mulder (FF Plus), Mr W Thring (ACDP) and Ms Y Yako (EFF) -- indicated that their political parties would reserve their rights on the Bill.
Mr Horn commented that given the clear majority of the ANC in the Committee, there was no room for debate for Members from other parties.
Mr Du Preez took the Committee through the final version of the Bill.
On clause 1 (c), he asked Members whether "communication" should include "utterance" or "oral communication."
The Committee agreed on the use of "utterance" in the Bill.
On the definition of harm, Mr Du Preez outlined the two options as presented in the document, and asked Members if they would take option 1 or 2 of the definition. Option 1 also included “social or economic detriment” in the aspect of harm.
The majority view of the Committee, including the view of Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) and Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC), supported option 1.
The Chairperson said that since Members had deliberated all the clauses included in the Bill, he would not open another round of debate on those clauses. Members who disagreed with those clauses may, however, indicate their objections before their voting.
On the definition of social detriment, there are two options, in which option 2 favoured the deletion of "social detriment." The majority view in the Committee was in support of option 1.
Deputy Minister Jeffery clarified that on the definition of characteristics, option 1 excluded all the characteristics such as age, AIDS, language, occupations and trades, political affiliation or conviction, whereas option 2 included all of those characteristics.
The majority view of the Committee supported the adoption of option 1.
On the definition of grounds, Deputy Minister Jeffery clarified that option 2 was the more restrictive option than option 1, with the latter covering a wider scope. The majority view of the Committee, including Mr Q Dyantyi (ANC) and Ms Maseko-Jele, supported option 1.
On Clause 3(1): Offence of Hate Crime, the majority view supported the redrafted version.
On clause 4(1): Offence of Hate Speech, option one emphasised speeches that were harmful or were to incite harm, whereas option 2 included only "to incite harm," which was a higher bar for the crime. The majority view of the Committee supported option 1.
Deputy Minister Jeffery pointed out that using the "K" word was harmful, but not inciting harm. Following that, he remarked that the DA’s reservation to the clause showed that the party did not want to criminalise using the "K" word.
Adv G Breytenbach (DA) accused the Deputy Minister of being mischievous and cheap politicking. She affirmed that the DA maintained its own interpretation of what it supported and did not support.
On clause 4(2)(d) which was the exemption grounds, the majority view of the Committee supported option 1, whereas the ACDP supported option 2.
On Clause 6(3) that dealt with penalties, option 1 distinguished first-time and second-time offenders, with the maximum imprisonment period not exceeding five years, whereas option 2 did not distinguish offenders and put the maximum imprisonment period at not exceeding eight years. The majority view of the Committee supported option 2.
On Clause 7, the majority view of the party supported the proposed amendment to the bill.
Not much had been said about clauses 8 to 12.
The majority party supported all clauses.
The DA, EFF, ACDP, and FF Plus reserved their rights to vote.
Mr Du Preez also took the Committee through the laws to be amended once the Bill was adopted.
That concluded the finalisation of the Bill.
Mr Du Preez indicated that A List of the Bill would be ready for Members by the close of business by tomorrow at the latest.
Logistics for Committee workshop
The Chairperson enquired about the Committee’s workshop on Tuesday next week.
The Committee Secretariat said that Members were due to have their workshop on both Tuesday and Wednesday next week.
The Chairperson asked Adv Breytenbach whether all preparatory work had been done, and if the workshop was ready to proceed.
Adv Breytenbach confirmed that the workshop was ready to go ahead.
Given that the Committee had just finalised the Bill, the Chairperson suggested including a 20-minute period to deal with the A list of the Bill before the commencement of the workshop on that day.
Adv Breytenbach commented that she would have to confirm the actual order of the programme before she could give a response. She would communicate this to the Chairperson via email.
The Chairperson suggested that if the workshop began at 9 am, the Committee could meet at 8am to deal with the A-Bill first, and it would not interfere with the programmes of the workshop.
Ms Yako asked whether the workshop would be in-person, or virtual.
Adv Breytenbach confirmed that the workshop would be in-person.
The Chairperson said that the Committee could start with adopting the A list of the Bill before the workshop.
Ms Maseko-Jele supported the Chairperson’s suggestion, and asked whether the adoption would take place virtually.
Deputy Minister Jeffery reminded the Chairperson that the Committee must also adopt the Committee report in addition to the A list.
The Chairperson replied that he was aware of that, but he was also cognisant of the amount of oversight which Committee Members were undertaking at the moment. He therefore asked Mr Dyantyi about the progress of the Section 194 Enquiry Committee on Tuesday and Wednesday of the following week.
Mr Dyantyi replied that if Wednesday fell on 1 March, then it would be a critical week for the Section 194 Enquiry team.
The Chairperson responded that he would need to discuss the date with the Secretariat, and revert back to the Committee.
Adv Breytenbach emphasised that the two-day workshop had been in the plan for a long time, and had been postponed before. The whole process involved many people going to a lot of trouble to be ready for the workshop. She did not think the Committee should be flexible on the date at this stage.
With the Chairperson’s permission, the Deputy Minister and Mr Du Preez were released from the meeting.
The Secretariat indicated that given that there would be a physical plenary on Wednesday, at which this cluster would be asking questions to the Minister, he would prefer having the workshop venue somewhere nearby Parliament for the convenience of transport, and for Members to make it to Parliament on time.
Adv Breytenbach noted those points, and indicated that she would make all the arrangements and revert to the Chairperson no later than Thursday about the workshop venue. The information would then be circulated among all the Members.
The Chairperson emphasised that the workshop was compulsory for all Members to attend, except for Mr X Nqola (ANC) and Mr Dyantyi, due to their being Members of the s194 Committee, which also had its own deadline to conclude its work.
He informed the Committee that its scheduled meeting with the Legal Practice Council had had to be cancelled due to the unavailability of its executives. He found the matter egregiously bad, and indicated that he would have to take the matter up with the executive of the Council and the ministry. The issue had been outstanding for a long time and was very serious in nature. Also, any change to the scheduled programmes of the Committee caused inconvenience, given that Members were working on a very tight schedule.
The Chairperson asked the Secretariat to provide more details on the Committee meeting in Johannesburg on 24 February.
The Secretariat pointed out that the agreement was that Members would book their own flights. Parliament would arrange accommodation for Members, and at the current stage, they would stay at the Premier Hotel. On Friday morning, Parliament had also arranged transport to take Members to the court. Transport had also been arranged for those Members who would be returning to Cape Town.
The Chairperson said the Committee would have to revise its programme to accommodate the public comments period on the Cannabis Bill. The anticipated length for public comments would be approximately two to three weeks.
The meeting was adjourned.
Audio
Documents
Present
-
Magwanishe, Mr GB Chairperson
ANC -
Breytenbach, Adv G
DA -
Dyantyi, Mr QR
ANC -
Engelbrecht, Mr J
DA -
Horn, Mr W
DA -
Jeffery, Mr JH
ANC -
Maseko-Jele, Ms NH
ANC -
Mulder, Mr FJ
FF+ -
Newhoudt-Druchen, Ms WS
ANC -
Nqola, Mr X
ANC -
Thring, Mr WM
ACDP -
Yako, Ms Y
EFF
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