Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill: adoption; with Deputy Minister

Meeting report

Opening remarks

The Chairperson said that she had received too many apologies for the Friday, 6 May meeting. Quorum would not have been met and it is for that reason that the meeting had to be cancelled. Members all received a copy of the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill [B25-2021] which the Committee has gone through quite extensively.

Clause-by-clause deliberation on the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill, 2021

The Chairperson presented each clause of the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill (hereafter referred to as the Amendment Bill). There were no amendments to the Amendment Bill.

Mr A Whitfield (DA) moved for the adoption of the Amendment Bill.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) seconded the adoption.

The Chairperson asked Members if they would like to make any statements.

Members’ statements

Mr Whitfield thanked Members of the Committee. He said that while there have been some delays, there was no doubt that the intention of the Committee was to pass this important Bill. The previous Parliament had failed to do so and this Committee and Parliament have achieved a milestone, not only in the fight against Gender-Based Violence (GBV) but violent crime in general and in bolstering the convicted offenders’ database and making sure that South Africa remains a leading light in the DNA forensics space. This has been a very passionate item for the Committee and something that all its Members have waited for.

The Chairperson said that she is convinced that the Committee has done its work and had quorum in all instances. All political parties have been given an opportunity to state their cases and propose any amendments. The inputs that were received supported the Bill and its implementation. This means that the Bill has been unanimously adopted and accepted by the Committee.

Ms Nicolette van Zyl-Gous, Acting Content Advisor and Committee Researcher, said that it was procedurally correct for the Committee to adopt its report on the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill, 2021.

The Chairperson said that if the Committee had no amendments or objection to the Bill, then the Committee can adopt its report.

Mr A Seabi (ANC) said that he personally did not mind if the Committee adopted its report on the Bill, but was not sure if adopting the report would be a problem because Members had not received the report prior to adoption.

Ms B Marekwa (ANC) agreed that the Committee should first be emailed the report and adopt it in the next week.

Rev Meshoe told the Committee that he would be attending another meeting and would not have enough time to read through the report before the Committee adopts it. He agreed that the report should be adopted in the next week.

The Chairperson said that the Committee will receive the report and adopt it in the next week, to avoid going through the process hastily.

Deputy Minister’s comments

Deputy Minister of Police, Mr Cassel Mathale, thanked Members for processing this important piece of legislation. He said that it will assist the South African Police Service (SAPS) to deal with the outstanding challenges of those convicted prisoners who were not cooperating with the taking of DNA samples, for purposes of putting it on record and the possibility that some of them might have been involved in criminal activities where the suspects were not identified. The Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill that the Committee had passed, will enable SAPS to use minimum force on those convicted prisoners who do not want to cooperate with the police in the taking of buccal samples. The taking of buccal samples will be done by designated members of the police who are properly trained and who work together with correctional services. This will go a long way in the fight against GBV and criminality in general.

Committee minutes

The Committee considered and adopted its minutes of 4 May 2022.

Firearms Summit

The Chairperson said that the Committee’s programme indicates that the Firearms Summit will be on 1 June 2022. It was proposed that this be a hybrid session and that Committee Members, the Minister, Deputy Minister, National Commissioner and the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service (CSPS) attend physically at the venue. All the stakeholders will be able to participate virtually. The Peace and Stability Cluster will also be asking the Minister questions on 1 June 2022, and so, the Committee would have to consider the time constraints for debates and discussions.

Ms van Zyl-Gous said that there is good progress on the arrangement of the Firearms Summit. The date might change to allow the attendance of the Minister and all stakeholders. There will be engagement with CSPS, to specifically focus on the stakeholders that commented on the Firearms Control Amendment Bill, 2021. The programme will be circulated as soon as possible.

Rev Meshoe asked if it would be possible to have the Firearms Summit on 8 June instead of 1 June, to allow as much time to discuss matters and ask questions.

The Chairperson agreed that the time would be limited on 1 June, as the Committee would also need to consider public participation. She said that there is quite a bit of public interest in the Firearms Summit and the Committee had already received comments from the public.

Mr Seabi agreed that the Members could propose a new date for effective participation.

The Chairperson said that if the Members had any stakeholders that had input, that input could be forwarded to the Committee’s Researcher before the Firearms Summit. The Chairperson asked the Committee’s Researcher how the Committee would proceed with the Firearms Control Amendment Bill.

Ms van Zyl-Gous replied that the Firearms Control Amendment Bill is currently still under consultation.

The Chairperson asked if the Members agreed that the Firearms Summit would not discuss the Firearms Control Amendment Bill and that this be indicated to the political parties and the stakeholders, as the Firearms Control Amendment Bill is still under consultation.

Mr Takalani Ramaru, Chief Director: Monitoring and Evaluation, CSPS, confirmed that the CSPS is currently having consultations with different stakeholders in the firearms industry. The consultation for the Firearms Control Amendment Bill is advanced at this stage. 

Mr Whitfield said that he thought it might be a mistake to not include a discussion about the Firearms Control Amendment Bill. He suggested that perhaps the Committee could wait for the consultations on the Amendment Bill to conclude so that there is a final version of the Bill which could be discussed, because a large part of the Firearms Summit revolves around concerns that the industry and advocates against firearms have with the Bill, amongst other issues such as the Central Firearms Registry (CFR) etc. He said that the Firearms Control Amendment Bill would have a bearing on all issues that would be raised and discussed. It might be a good idea to allow those consultations to conclude so that the CSPS can present the outcomes of that process and that people can have their views heard.

Mr O Terblanche (DA) supported Mr Whitfield’s view. He said that it would not be a fruitful exercise if the Firearms Summit does not discuss the outcomes of the consultations.

Mr Seabi said that Mr Ramaru had indicated that there was advanced progress with the consultations. He suggested that perhaps the Committee could consider a suitable date for the Firearms Summit, after the consultations have been concluded.

The Chairperson said that there will be a Committee Management meeting, but she wanted the views of how the Members would want the Firearms Summit to proceed. If Members wanted the Firearms Control legislation and the salient issues related to the Firearms Control Amendment Bill, it would mean that the Members would have to wait for the CSPS and accept that the Firearms Summit may not happen on 8 June. In her view, she felt that these were two separate matters and that there will be ample opportunity to discuss the Firearms Control Amendment Bill in the future; she was also of the view that the Firearms Summit would have a positive impact on the consultation process of the Bill.

Rev Meshoe said that it would almost be impossible for issues that relate to the Firearms Control Amendment Bill to not be raised in the Firearms Summit. He acknowledged that the purpose of the Firearms Summit is not to discuss the Bill, but there will be questions that relate to the Bill. He asked the Chairperson what would happen if a person raised a question related to the Bill during the Firearms Summit; he asked if such questions would be ruled out of order.

The Chairperson replied that the Management Committee will consider the Members' views. Although she was not sure how long it would take the CSPS to conclude the consultation process, if Members are patient, then the Management Committee could propose a new date for the Firearms Summit that would allow enough time for discussions and debates. She said that the public should also be informed that the date for the Firearms Summit would be postponed.

Responses to questions

The Chairperson asked Mr Shembeni if he had received the report in response to his question about the firing of police officers.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) said that he went through the responses from SAPS. He questioned how a police officer who is in hospital because of depression and who has been submitting medical certificates can be dismissed. He said that there are a lot of discrepancies and he would like the Committee to discuss these matters. There have been a number of police members in the Free State who have been fired on this basis. He asked what was meant when a person was dismissed “expeditiously”, because he had seen a lot of instances where police officers were dismissed “expeditiously”.

The Chairperson said that she would like to consider all of the concerns and enquiries that were raised before the Committee has its oversight visit to the Free State. She would not want members of SAPS or members of the public to have the impression that the Committee has not taken their matters seriously. She said that the Committee would pay serious attention to the matter that Mr Shembeni had raised.

Mr Shembeni said that it is very disturbing to see the number of police officers who have been dismissed in the Free State. He said that he had not received a response on the concern that the senior management officers were requested to reapply for their positions, as well as the allegations on particular senior management officers.

The Chairperson said that the Committee will also address the matter of discipline management on 15 June 2022.

Mr Terblanche recalled that in the previous meeting, he had also raised a concern regarding an allegation about a SAPS senior manager. He asked when the Committee would receive feedback.

The Chairperson replied that the Committee had received preliminary information from the National Commissioner’s office. The Committee would want SAPS to provide factual information, particularly regarding the allegations on social media.

Ms van Zyl-Gous said that Members will receive a full report but she confirmed that the matter regarding Lt Gen Dineo Ntshiea was investigated and the allegations were found to be false information.

Mr Shembeni said that when the police have done excellent work, they should be commended. For instance, in the investigation of the death of Hillary Gardee in Mpumalanga; the police, Provincial Commissioner and Minister have done sterling work with that investigation.

Mr Terblanche asked whether the other outstanding matters would still receive feedback at a later stage.

The Chairperson replied that she had asked SAPS for a factual account of the matters that they respond to and that there should be proof of documentation.

Closing remarks

The Chairperson confirmed that the Committee would adopt its report on the Amendment Bill, in the next week. She thanked the Deputy Minister and his team for their hard work. She also thanked Mr Ramaru and the team from CSPS, who have assisted with the process of the Amendment Bill, in a very professional manner and have taken the comments from the public into account. The Committee has passed the Bill and all of its political parties are unanimous in their view that the Bill can be passed.

The meeting was adjourned.