Department of Community Safety 2020/21 policing needs and priorities

Meeting report

Ms Yashina Pillay, HOD, Western Cape Department of Community Safety (DoCS), presented the outline of the report on the policing needs and priorities (PNP) of the Western Cape. She said Section 206(1) of the Constitution requires the National Minister of Police to determine the national policing policy after consulting provincial governments and taking into account the policing needs and priorities of the provinces.

The provincial executive (MEC) must determine the policing needs and priorities for the province, submit it to the national minister so that it may impact the national and provincial policing policy and allocation of resources to the province.

National policing policy may make provision for different policies for provinces after taking the needs and priorities of the province into account (Section 206 (2)).

Section 23 of the 2013 Community Safety Act says the MEC must report annually to the Provincial Parliament on his/her findings, and it must be debated in the Standing Committee

The Standing Committee must consider and debate the report and may hold public hearings and request representations from stakeholders with an interest in the report.

The Provincial Commissioner must be given an opportunity to respond to the report and findings.

The findings and comments of the Standing Committee must be taken into account when the MEC formulates the recommendations on policing needs and priorities to be forwarded to the Minister of Police.

The MEC must submit the approved policing needs and priorities to the national Minister to be taken into account when the policing needs and priorities for the province are formulated.

The objectives of the PNP were:
-To influence the allocation, distribution and utilisation of policing and safety resources in line with the identified policing needs and priorities and safety concerns.
-To determine the Policing Needs and Priorities to increase safety in the Western Cape.
-To make policy recommendations to decision-makers.
-To publish a Provincial Policing Needs and Priorities report.
-To distribute the report to a wide number of key role players and decision-makers, amongst others, Standing Committee on Community Safety, Cultural Affairs and Sport, Cabinet, National Minister for Police, National Secretariat for Safety and Security, Provincial Police Commissioner, SAPS Cluster and Station Commanders, Metro Police, CPFs, Provincial Government Departments, District and Local Municipalities.


Ms Amanda Dissel, Director: Policy and Research, Department of Community Safety, highlighted the key findings. On the methodology, a retrospective analysis of key PNP findings and recommendations made in PNP reports from 2014/15 to 2019/20 was conducted. Desktop analysis was conducted on the key issues. Secondary resources such as the South African Police Services (SAPS) annual reports and Victims of Crime Survey (VOCs) were included. New key policing and safety concerns in the province and developments were identified.

Police resource distribution
Shortage of police resources consistently emerged as one of the policing needs and priorities raised in the Western Cape since 2014

The Western Cape police to population ratio was 1:507 in 2018/19. This is an improvement on the 1:553 for the previous year


Police basic training
-Attention needs to be paid to ensuring that the right calibre trainees are accepted to the academy and that the right trainees graduate from the system so that they can become capable constables and police;
-The curriculum and structure to be reviewed to focus more on practical training and skills that a constable requires when immediately appointed, such as statement taking;
-In-field training and supervision should be reintroduced;
-Training academies need to be fully capacitated with properly qualified and trained lecturers.
-Lecturers should preferably have experience of policing themselves; and 
-The training colleges should offer both theoretical and practical Public Order Policing foundation training seeing that these constables are likely to be exposed to social protests upon their deployment and will be expected to police such situations

Vehicle fleet management
-The level of vehicle availability has improved
-Also due to the decrease in personnel
-New vehicles were purchased and measures were put in place to prevent misuse and abuse of vehicles by members.
-The lengthy period that these vehicles take after sending them to SAPS garages for repair and maintenance needs to be addressed by the Provincial Office as a matter of urgency.

Police station conditions
-Some police stations are in dire need of upgrading.
-Insufficient office space, storage space, unhygienic and unsafe working conditions.
-At some stations it was reported that SAPS do not have sufficient resources, especially holding cells.
-DoCS visited 38 stations were visited. One concern was that some of those police stations operating from leased or rented premises had been unable to make the necessary alterations to infrastructure.
-68.4% of those stations did not have access control in place. 26.3% of the stations visited did not have holding cells and 10.5% did not have any detention cells at all.
-Conclusion: Upgrade of stations is still a priority

Police reservists

-Numbers declined from 66 394 in 2008 to 10 144 in 2019. In June 2019 there were only 867 in Western Cape.
-Ombudsman noted a number of reasons why reservists are not being appointed.
-DoCS made R5million available to support reservists – was not taken up

Police visibility
Vigilantism continues to be a problem.  Though police visibility is not the only factor in vigilantism, it does play a role.

Inadequate police visibility will remain a problem until the staff shortages are fully addressed in the Western Cape and until the police to population ratio in the Western Cape has been adequately addressed.

A more focused policing approach in the areas is needed.

The Area Based Team approach adopted in the priority areas in the Western Cape aims to ensure that police and law enforcement are deployed using a targeted data-led operational approach.

SAPS response times
A quarter of PNP respondents in 2014/15 complained of delayed response times.

2017: 59.8% of households reported that it takes less than an hour for the police to respond to an emergency call.

Some of the problems with response time can be attributed to outdated technology. The Province has one Radio Control Centre at Maitland and four Radio Rooms (George, Oudtshoorn, Beaufort West and Worcester) which are regularly visited for maintenance.

Conclusion: The SAPS response times must be improved. CPFs should monitor the response time of the police regarding Alpha, Bravo and Charlie complaints and raise possible concerns at CPF meetings and report on them to the Department of Community Safety. Prompt answering of the phones are seemingly further derailed by a failing, outdated system Department of Community Safety

Professionalism
-Lack of professionalism was raised at several PNPs over the years.
-Issues include: Lack of phone etiquette; not speaking in the language of the complainant; rudeness; lack of privacy and respect when laying a complaint
-In 2019, SAPS announced the Inspectorate would be capacitated to deal with poor performance and lack of discipline within SAPS.

Corruption
-PNP respondents indicated a perception that many police officials are corrupt.
-Have been several high-profile cases involving corrupt SAPS officials.
-The DPCI Serious Corruption Investigation Unit is reported to have achieved major successes in arresting officials involved in procurement fraud and corruption-related cases.
-The Anti-Corruption Unit in the Western Cape investigates corruption and corruption-related allegations against SAPS members.
-In 2019/20, 33 police members were arrested on charges of corruption, business robbery, defeating the administration of justice, fraud, extortion, kidnapping and theft. Nine members were convicted of corruption and corruption-related cases.
Conclusion: Corruption must be addressed decisively and not be tolerated within SAPS. DoCS will continue to monitor the work of the DPCI Serious Corruption Investigation Unit and other fraud or corruption cases

Municipal police and law enforcement
-PNP consultations raised concerns with a shortage of law enforcement personnel and inadequate hours.
-Municipal law enforcement officials typically operate only weekdays and working hours.
-City of Cape Town law enforcement operates on a 24-hour basis, with integration of the City’s three policing departments, namely Metro Police, Law Enforcement and Traffic Services.
-1 000 Law Enforcement (LEAP) officers through the City of Cape Town over a three-year period within the boundaries of the City of Cape Town to bolster law enforcement capacity. In February 2020, 451 law enforcement officials were recruited and deployed in the priority murder stations in the Metro. A further 500 will be recruited and deployed in the second half of 2021.
-Since the LEAP officers have been deployed in the priority areas (for the period February 2020 to March 2021) they have confiscated 51 firearms and 384 rounds of ammunition; made 1 543 arrests, of which 911 was for drugs; searched 5 608 houses and 148 329 suspects; and they have also inspected 2 174 shebeens of which they closed 333.
-Conclusion: municipalities need to evaluate the working hours of law enforcement, so they are working at the times when crime is most prevalent (Friday to Monday – evenings and nights).

Management of domestic violence
-2019/20 crime statistics indicate that crimes against women decreased by 4.8% nationally and 4.6% in the Western Cape when compared with 2018/19.
-Crimes against children also decreased by 6.4% nationally and 5.5% in the Western Cape.
-The Western Cape SAPS reported that domestic violence in the Province accounted for 5% (198) of the total recorded murder incidents in the province during the 2019/2020 financial year. Mfuleni, Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Harare and Kraaifontein were the highest contributing stations for domestic-related murders.
Number of shortcomings with SAPS management of DVA cases (2018/19)
-Lack of alignment between the DVA register and other DVA records, including the occurrence book and pocketbooks of members at certain stations;
-Protection orders were not always served within the targeted 48 hours. Copies of final protection orders were not filed correctly in 33 stations (22%) and were not available in 35 stations (23%);
-There is a lack of trained volunteers in victim-friendly rooms at some stations.
-There is a lack of safe house facilities within the precincts of a number of stations, including Khayelitsha and Mfuleni;
-67% of visible policing members and 74% of detectives at the top 20 stations had not undergone the five-day DVA training course; and
-In 2018/2019, only 12 DVA courses were provided for the station-level personnel.
-Gender-based Violence and Femicide National Strategic Plan (GBVF-NSP) was published in 2020.
-WCG adopted a Gender-Based Strategy in 2021.
-In September 2020, Minister Bheki Cele announced 30 GBV hotspot police stations.  These include nine stations in the Western Cape namely: Delft, Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Mfuleni, Mitchells Plain, Kraaifontein, Gugulethu and Bellville.
-DoCS Court Watching Brief reported that between 1 July and 30 September 2019, 66 out of 92 cases struck off the roll in courts owing to police inefficiencies, were GBV related.
-DoCS conducted an assessment at 16 police stations during the year and found that there was a 50 – 88% compliance with the DVA at the different stations.
-Conclusion: Policing of GBV remains a priority. Station commanders and VisPol commanders must ensure that non-compliance with the DVA and NI 7/1999 are effectively managed. Station commanders also have a key role in managing the processes of members who are perpetrators or victims

Forensic analysis
-There has been an escalation of problems with forensic analysis due to procurement issues.
-Backlogs in forensic and DNA analysis.
-DOCS Watching Briefs found many cases, including murder are struck from the roll due to outstanding -FSL reports and post-mortem reports.
-Conclusion: There is an urgent need for SAPS national to address the problems with analysis and the Forensic Science laboratory. The backlog in tests continues to grow, impacting on SAPS’s ability to properly investigate crimes.
-It is recommended that the forensic laboratory in the Western Cape report to the Western Cape Provincial Commissioner, rather than at the national level.

Policing firearms and ammunition
-In 2018, approximately 5.4 million South Africans have guns in their possession, but only 3 million are licensed.
-In 2019/2020, the Central Firearm Registry (CFR) received 07 631 new firearm licence applications nationally
-7 762 applications were received in the Western Cape.
-In the Western Cape, during the 2019/20 year, 12 045 firearm licences were renewed out of 13 383 applications.
-Percentage of firearm murders & attempted murders is increasing. From 36% to 46% in 2019/20.
-Firearms were used in 92.3% (759 counts) of the reported gang murders, and 98.3% of attempted gang murders. Firearms were used in 100% of taxi-related murders.
-In the Western Cape, 38 firearms were lost or stolen from the police in the same period, and 52 were recovered.
-Firearms are also lost from SAPS 13 stores.
-In the firearms amnesty (1 December 2019 to end May 2020) 44 033 firearms and 246 060 rounds of ammunition were surrendered nationally.
-In the Western Cape (2019/20), only 1 830 lost/stolen firearms were recovered, a decrease from the previous year.
 -On 7 July 2020, 30 000 confiscated firearms were destroyed by SAPS in Vereeniging, Gauteng. Of these confiscated firearms, 1 697 was confiscated in the Western Cape between June 1999 and September 2019.
-One of the focus areas for the LEAP officials deployed in priority areas in the Western Cape over December 2020 to March 2021 was recovery of illegal firearms.
-DoCS is currently developing a firearm harms reduction strategy together with the NPA, SAPS and other role players


Recommendations
Recruit & appoint additional SAPS members
-The Theoretical Human Resource Requirement must be amended and a new system to allocate human resources developed. Key stakeholders should be consulted in this process. Key to this is a process that identifies those police precincts most at risk and allocates policing resources accordingly.
-As soon as possible, given the Covid-19 restrictions, new SAPS members must be recruited, trained and deployed to the Western Cape.
-The basic training curricula for police officials should be revised to ensure more practical training and focus on skills required by constables immediately on their deployment. Infield and on-the-job supervision should be reintroduced. Trainers should include experienced police officers.

Physical Resources 
-Vehicle fleet management needs to be improved, and delays in repairing vehicles need to be addressed. Government garages must ensure that the service standards are maintained and that vehicles are serviced within the shortest turnaround time.
-The personnel to vehicle ratio needs to be improved.
-Those police stations requiring upgrades need to be attended to and CCTV cameras and security installations must address security risks.

Police Reservists 
-The Covid-19 pandemic has impacted further on the declining number of reservists and it would appear that SAPS intends to recruit new police officials from the ranks of reservists. It is imperative that SAPS start a recruitment campaign for new reservists, especially in those areas where crime is highest and police visibility is most needed.

Policing of the railway environment
-A strategy must be developed to ensure effective policing of the railway environment to ensure the safety of commuters and staff, as well as of railway assets and infrastructure.

SAPS detectives
-The shortfall in the number of detectives has continued and the detection rate of most serious crimes has declined. The Detective Academy, announced in 2019, needs to be established and offer training to all SAPS members involved in investigating crimes.
-Advanced and specialised detective training also needs to be made available. This must include training on how to collect DNA buccal samples.

Management of sick leave
-With the pressure of a declining number of officials, it becomes even more important that active officials are managed properly and are available to do their shifts when required.
-SAPS needs to address the abuse of sick leave and work towards achieving its target concerning sick leave.

Effective deployment of SAPS members
-Evidence suggests that police action is most effective when it is directed at specific places, targeted at certain people (individuals or groups) and towards defined problems. The deployment of human resources should be dependent on accurate crime and demographic data down to a geographic microlevel.
-The Area Based Approach currently being implemented as part of the Western Cape Safety Plan is premised on this approach and requires ongoing collaboration from SAPS, Law Enforcement and other key safety stakeholders.
-It is important that this approach should be carefully monitored to assess its impact and it should be modified as required.

Integrated Case Docket Management (ICDMS) and Docket Archive Stores
-Detectives must be trained on the implementation of the ICDMS.
-All stations must ensure that they appoint vetted members to manage the Dockets Archive Stores.
-All stations should conduct an audit of training needs for Data Typists and detectives to utilise the ICDMS.
-All stations must ensure that they adhere to the minimum requirements of National Instruction 13 of 2017.

Address police corruption
-Corruption in the police must be addressed at all levels.
-Attention needs to be paid to police culture which allows corruption to flourish. Management and political leadership need to give clear signals through their speeches and actions that corruption will not be tolerated.
-SAPS Anti-Corruption Unit needs to continue investigating allegations of corruption and ensure that corrupt members are prosecuted.  The performance of this unit should also be monitored.
-Strong partnerships with the community and civil society and good communication can help to improve trust and encourage the community to report corruption and expect that their reports will be taken seriously

Address backlogs in forensic laboratories
-There is an urgent need for SAPS national to address the problems with analysis and the Forensic Science laboratory. The backlog in tests continues to grow impacting SAPS' ability to properly investigate crimes. This needs to be addressed at a national level as a matter of urgency.
-It is recommended that the forensic laboratory in the Western Cape report to the Western Cape Provincial Commissioner, rather than at the national level.
-The procurement of buccal sample kits needs to be improved and distributed to priority stations.
-SAPS must ensure that stations have the necessary infrastructure to protect the basic human rights of suspects during the sampling process.
-Training should be provided for detectives and members of the Visible Policing Components

Greater collaboration between SAPS and law enforcement authorities
-There is a need for greater collaboration and integration of SAPS and law enforcement authorities.
-This requires joint planning and operations which should be supported by the sharing of crime information and threats to implement an effective hotspots approach to policing.
-Various technological platforms can be explored, such as collaboration around CCTV footage, gunfire detection and drone technology.
-The integration of radio technology and systems should be explored.

Management of firearms and ammunition
-SAPS must continue to focus on firearm recoveries and confiscations through stop and search and intelligence-led operations.
-Firearm stockpiles must be closely managed to prevent the leakage of confiscated firearms and firearms held legally by the police, military and civilians. SAPS must report all firearms and ammunition lost or stolen from exhibits, stores or from members of SAPS.
-Confiscated firearms need to be destroyed on a more regular basis.
-There needs to be further regulation of the sale of ammunition to prevent large amounts being bought and sold or lent on to criminally minded people.
-SAPS must ensure that firearm and firearm-related offences are thoroughly investigated so that they can be prosecuted in court.

Collaboration and integration of SAPS and law enforcement authorities
-This requires joint planning and operations which should be supported by the sharing of crime information and threats to implement an effective hotspots approach to policing.
-Various technological platforms can be explored, such as collaboration around CCTV footage, gunfire detection and drone technology.
-The integration of radio technology and systems should be explored.

Gender-based violence
-SAPS must ensure that Victim-friendly rooms meet all requirements and are available at all police stations.
-In collaboration with the Department of Social Development, Victim Empowerment volunteers and coordinators must be appointed and trained at all police stations.
-Police stations must have access to DNA collection kits at all times.
-SAPS need to address the backlog in GBV cases.
-The FCS unit should be capacitated to address GBV and femicide cases.
-All SAPS members need to be trained on how to address domestic violence and gender-based violence cases. This should include awareness of the empathy needed to assist victims of GBV.
-First responders should be capacitated to provide support to victims of GBV.
-Victims must be kept informed of the progress of their case and be provided with ongoing victim support.
-The Western Cape Government should continue to address gender-based violence through its Transversal Gender-based Violence Steering Committee or similar

Substance abuse
-Substance abuse and drugs are key drivers of crime and violence. The root causes of these need to be addressed, using a multi-pronged approach. Substance abusers must be given adequate support and treatment opportunities.
-A harms-reduction approach to policing and enforcement should be followed.
-A considered policing and law enforcement approach should be adopted, and intelligence-led operations should be brought against drug dealers and those higher in the criminal network. K-9 units should be involved in the policing of drug-related crimes.
-Law enforcement play a key role in policing the ‘B’ crimes and allowing SAPS to concentrate on more serious forms of crime.
-Strengthen enforcement around liquor outlets and ensure that law enforcement officers are trained in de-escalation strategies.
-The Western Cape Liquor Authority should continue to ensure compliance with licensing conditions.

Murder and serious violent crime
-Ensure a policing approach that responds to a clear understanding of the patterns, causes and nature of murder and serious crime.
-Implement an area-based approach that works collaboratively with SAPS and law enforcement, and with stakeholders from government and civil society.

Gang-related crime
-Capacitate the SAPS Anti-gang Unit so that it is able to conduct intelligence-led operations and monitor its impact.
-Adopt a multi-stakeholder approach to working in communities and work with youth at risk of joining gangs.
-Implement the Provincial response to the National Anti-Gang Strategy

Discussion
Mr P Marais (FF+) asked if liberal democratic principles and policies solve chronic criminality; asked if the change of freedoms have become a threat to peace; asked how the problems in the presentation are going to be solved considering the stats are going up and the presentation does not say “we will do this”, rather it says “we need to do this”, which does not sound promising; and asked if the murder rate is increasing, if a projection based on the past should be made.

Ms D Baartman (DA) asked how often the Department engages with SAPS; what the engagement is like; if there are departmental roles given the close type of mandates for things such as safety; and how it interacts with SAPS on its respective programmes.

Mr R Mackenzie (DA) asked if the Department has been in communication with SAPS on the recommendations on pages 20 to 28. He asked what the feedback was after visiting the forensic library before the Committee gave the guidelines to respond on the matters.
To law enforcement, he asked if the relationship with SAPS moved closer around strengthening the matters in the presentation.

Mr M Kama (ANC) asked the Department about detective capacity; where SAPS was disputing the Department’s research on the training of the detectives; if there are any challenges in the adequate training of the detectives; what the plan is with a timeframe on the issue of poor streetlights; what the plan is concerning the maintenance of existing infrastructure; and on the collaboration of social development, victim empowerment, volunteers, and coordinators to be appointed and trained at all stations, he asked if it exists. He also asked how it is institutionalised, and what the working relationship is.

The Chairperson said the recent crime statistics show the relationship between SAPS and the City of Cape Town in the Western Cape, and the DoCS has caused a decrease in the murder rate which should be highly commended.

Responses
Ms Pillay addressed Mr Marais’s question and said the allegations were made against the former Minister and Foreign Affairs officials, but the processes are unfolding and will take their course. 

Concerning the crime statistics, there has been a reduction in the murder rate. The Law Enforcement Advancement Plan (LEAP) is deployed in the murder stations. It works under command of the SAPS and this has helped in the reduction of murder.

To Ms Baartman's question, she said the Minister and herself engage with the National Minister, the Minister’s team, and provincial counterparts at mimic meetings. There is a weekly meeting between herself and the Provincial Commissioner (PC) and they are responsive to the Department's needs.

Concerning the policing needs and priorities, there is a need to be influenced by the way the National Centre allocates resources. Also, formal inspections of police stations are conducted. There is engagement on all levels when the safety plans for the district municipalities are developed.

To Mr Mackenzie's question, Ms Pillay said there has been a positive impact of working together with SAPS and law enforcement agencies, and the DoCS ensures work is done respectfully to look out for the needs of the community.

Responding to Mr Kama’s question, she said the labs under the PC are supported. On GBV, members will be sensitised to ensure facilities are in place, to ensure detectives are functioning as these people should be, to ensure members are trained at all levels.

On the upgrading of lighting the upgrading roads, part of the safety plans are to ensure there are good violence prevention issues that are taken seriously. There is an urban typical workflow which is made up of the Department of Transport and Public Works, Human Settlements, Environmental Affairs, Development Plan, and Local Government. The issues of lighting, housing, and transportation systems are being looked at.

The Chairperson asked for an elaboration on the recent statistics for the last quarter.

Ms Dissel said the decrease in murder statistics related to the latest quarterly statistics for the period from October to December 2021. Nationally, murder increased by 8.9%, whereas in the province, murder decreased by 6.8%. In priority precincts in the Metro area where the project and the area-based team approach has been implemented, there was a 9.35% decrease. When statistics are looked at quarterly, there are encouraging decreases in murder.

Mr Marais argued the murder rate has increased. The official report shows the crime rate has escalated from a certain amount over ten years in the Western Cape.

Mr Kama said Mr Marais read a graph based on a ten-year period which shows an increase, but in reality, looking at a particular graph, there is a decrease. Looking at the current period from 2018/19 to 2019/20, there is a decrease.

Ms Baartman suggested the Department can indicate the date the report was published.

Ms Dissel agreed with Mr Kama on the period of murder decrease.

To Ms Baartman's comment, Ms Dissel said the report has not been published because activity goes through the Standing Committee and the process of incorporating comments must be followed.

Mr Kama asked about the Prevention Unit which will be located in the Department of Health. He wanted to know what the targets are and what the timeframes are; when it will be in place; how it will be constituted; and how the Department is going to develop its crime prevention strategy.

Ms Pillay replied the Department is already setting up the Unit. The deliverables of the Violence Prevention Unit will be aligned to the objectives of the Western Cape safety plans. The Department of Health is also focusing on mental well-being. The safety plan in its recovery plan, as a basis for all these interventions, is what is being used. The interventions will be co-produced and co-owned by community service citizens. The intervention will be different based on the need of the particular community.

Chief Wayne le Roux, Chief: Cape Town Metro Police, said there is a good relationship with SAPS. There are regular monthly meetings. There is a lot of interest in the type of technology available, and the city can reach out to host the system. When there is a problem, stakeholders are engaged to sort it from ground level to the top.

Mr Kama asked how many CCTV cameras are available, and how the Department knows when a camera is vandalised.

Mr Marais asked if the Metro can train people to conduct investigations and if it can have stations where people report matters and work together with SAPS.

The Chairperson asked for a broader understanding of how the Metro Police would play a big role in doing patrols and visible policing, especially in the areas of gang violence.

Mr Mackenzie asked how effective the LEAP offices in the Metro Police have been; and asked if the legislature gets more funding from the Western Cape government for the units, to get additional resources so it can be more effective.

Chief Le Roux addressed Mr Kama's question and said there are 1 000 CCTV cameras, including freeway management, normal CCTV cameras. Regarding vandalism, there is a responsive team.

On Mr Marais question, the K-9 Unit with the police is utilised. Neighbourhood policing helps to find out what is happening in the community.

Mr Waseem Matthews, Committee Procedural Officer, said the Committee has received a draft report. It received input from stakeholders and was briefed by the Department. He referred to point number one, two, and three and said it showed the steps when received by referral.

The Committee allowed input from the two stakeholders, SAPS and Metro Police. The next step would be for the Committee to submit additional recommendations, which will go to the MEC to finalise the reporting process to the National Police.

Ms Baartman proposed the Committee adopt the reports, and asked Ms Pillay to give the analysis on the updated statistics.

Mr Kama supported the proposal and asked if there can be a CCTV teacher to give an understanding of the CCTV cameras, with SAPS representing.

Mr Mackenzie supported the proposal.

The meeting was adjourned.