(Subcommittee) Public Service Commissioner Interviews Day 1

Meeting report

Each candidate was invited to present a 10-15 minute prepared presentation on risk management or corporate governance. At the end of the interview, the candidate was given the opportunity to comment and then thanked for attending the interview. See video for candidate responses to the questions.

Dr William Khotso De Wee
Ms T Mgweba (ANC) asked the candidate to explain how the handling of a Commissioner’s relationship with Commission management and staff could bring disrepute to the Commission or promote its reputation.

Ms M Kibi (ANC) asked how he would link the legal framework to the State Capture context?

Ms V Malomane (ANC) asked if decisions, advice and opinions from staff or management to Commissioners should be consensus-based at all times. If so, where does one draw the line?

The Chairperson said the PSC has the mandate to promote the values and principles of Section 195 of the Constitution. What is the candidate’s understanding of the functions of the PSC and the values and principles governing public administration?

Mr C Sibisi (NFP) said that a responsive, ethical and values-driven public service depends on curbing corruption in government and malpractice, particularly in the area of appointments. How can the PSC strengthen and play a meaningful role in its investigation of unethical conduct and malpractice in the public service?

The Chairperson said he wanted to put the candidate at ease as he would be asked about the State Capture Commission and should not perceive this question as an ambush.

Ms R Komane (EFF) said the PSC tabled a March 2019 report in Parliament which observed an increasing number of employees appointed on contract over an extended period in government departments. Does the candidate think that government should appoint senior personnel on a contract basis and what is the rationale for contract appointments of senior management? What are the benefits and the risks of this?

As a follow-up question, Ms Komane asked if the candidate was saying that South Africa still lacked coherence between the political leadership and governance issues, not forgetting the track record of the incumbent?

Dr L Schreiber (DA) asked about the reference the candidate made to PSC powers and personnel appointments. He thought there was a distinction to be drawn between recommendations and directives. His personal view was that directives have not been used enough. What is the candidate’s view on political interference in administration appointments. In the State Capture Commission, cadre deployment has come quite strongly to the fore.

Dr Schreiber said no one wanted to ambush the candidate, but the Committee needed to ask pertinent questions. Given how strongly the candidate has spoken about State Capture and the need for the PSC to play its role in rectifying these matters, how does the candidate respond to the fact that he had to step back from the State Capture Commission Secretariat when bribery allegations were made about his previous employment as COO in the Department of Justice. How can the candidate inspire confidence in the Committee to believe in the candidate’s ability to live up to the ethics and standards he speaks so strongly about when there is this kind of question about his conduct?

Adv Jafet Ferdinand Victor
The candidate made a presentation on the relationship between PSC commissioners and management.

Ms Mgweba said the candidate in his presentation on the relationship between PSC commissioners and management did not explain the elements of risk management policy and strategy in detail. What does this entail and how would one go about implementing it?

Ms Kibi asked how the Commissioners could know when PSC management was not following regulations and legislation.

Ms Malomane asked if the candidate believed the PSC should have a strategic risk register and to provide reasons.

The Chairperson said the PSC has a constitutional mandate to promote values and principles of Section 195 of the Constitution. What is the candidate’s understanding of the PSC and the values and principles governing public administration?

Mr Sibisi said the PSC functions aimed to promote the constitutional values and principles of public administration and to give direction aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures comply with those principles. In the candidate’s view, is the PSC making an impact on the public service and how can it reposition itself to make an impact given its wider mandate of promoting those values and principles governing public administration?

Ms Komane noted the candidate's research in preparation for the interview and his conclusion that the PSC does not make an impact. She asked what the candidate’s vision would be to transform the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality. How can the independence of the PSC be protected since the officials are appointed through the Public Service Act?

Dr Schreiber said he had been listening to the interview and he was covered.

Mr Theodore Madoda Sefuba
After the candidate's presentation on good governance at the Public Service Commission, Mr Sibisi asked the candidate to expand on the ethical culture and good controls that the Commission and its Office must uphold.

Ms Mgweba asked if the candidate believed the Commission should function like the corporate world by observing principles of good governance and how does one apply these principles in a public institution like the PSC?

Ms Kibi said there is a huge loss of public money to corruption, especially with public servants doing business with the state. In the candidate’s opinion, how could public servants be stopped from doing business with the state since there is legislation already preventing this practice, yet still it continues?

Ms Malomane said corruption and maladministration has become so ingrained in the public service and it is the new normal which is impacting negatively on the development of this country. What causes corruption and how can the PSC play a meaningful role in preventing corrupt practices? Please outline the current weaknesses in the system and propose solutions.

The Chairperson said the PSC has the mandate to promote the values and principles as enshrined in Section 195 of the Constitution. What is the candidate’s understanding of the functions of the PSC and the values and principles governing public administration?

Ms Komane said the PSC tabled a March 2019 report in Parliament which observed an increasing number of employees appointed on contract over an extended period in government departments. Does the candidate think that government should appoint senior personnel on a contract basis and what is the rationale for contract appointments of senior management? What are the benefits and the risks of this?

Dr Schreiber said he wanted to follow up on the points the candidate made on the PSC. Does the candidate think there is scope for enhancing the powers he mentioned? What is the candidates view on strengthening the hand of the PSC?

Mr Thabo Guy Monyanyedi
After the candidate's presentation on risk management, Mr Sibisi asked the candidate how leadership and control can help mitigate risk in the PSC?

Ms Mgweba said corruption and maladministration has become so ingrained in the public service and it is the new normal which is impacting negatively on the development of this country. What causes corruption and how can the PSC play a meaningful role in preventing corrupt practices? Please outline the current weaknesses in the system and propose solutions.

Ms Kibi said the candidate stated in his presentation that risk arises when various people are unable to function due to conflicts and strain created by seeing "past each other". She asked the candidate to expand on this statement.

Ms Malomane said the candidate’s presentation emphasized that communication plays a role in harmonizing human relations. How does the PSC communicate to harmonize human relations in the public service?

The Chairperson said the PSC has a mandate to promote the values and principles as enshrined in Section 195 of the Constitution. What is the candidate’s understanding of the functions of the PSC and the values and principles governing public administration?

Ms Komane said that a responsive, ethical and values-driven public service depends on curbing corruption in government and malpractice, particularly in the area of appointments. How can the PSC strengthen and play a meaningful role in its investigation of unethical conduct and malpractice in the public service?

Dr Schreiber said his question related to independence and impartiality flagged in the candidate's presentation. His CV states he was General Secretary for the ANC at Tembisa West branch. He asked about the impartiality of the Commission, especially given its role in safeguarding against political interference such as through cadre deployment. How would the candidate address the Committee on political independence and impartiality when he has served as an Advisor to a Minister which is a political appointment? A Public Service Commission is expected to be impartial.

Is the candidate saying that since he is not currently deployed, that he has no loyalty to the ANC if appointed?

Mr Maseala David Kekana
Dr Schreiber asked the candidate to explain why he referred to the PSC as a "corporate citizen" and without referring to his slides to say what are the key governance outcomes.

Ms Komane asked what disclosures must be made by public servants to promote a culture of transparency and trust? Does the candidate believe that public servants truthfully disclose their business interests in terms of the candidate’s own context and the presentation he made? She asked the candidate to support the question with facts.

Mr Sibisi said there is a huge loss of public money to corruption, especially with public servants doing business with the state. In the candidate’s opinion, how can public servants be stopped from doing business with the state since there is legislation already preventing this practice, yet still it continues?

Ms Malomane asked if integrity and accountability were linked in promoting a culture of good governance and mitigating risk in an organization such as the PSC?

Ms Kibi said the PSC functions aimed to promote the constitutional values and principles of public administration and to give direction aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures comply with those principles. In the candidate’s view, is the PSC making an impact on the public service and how can it reposition itself to make an impact given its wider mandate of promoting those values and principles governing public administration?

Ms Mgweba asked what needs to be improved in the country’s public service and how will the candidate contribute to the PSC?

Mr Schreiber said independence and impartiality is critical for the Commission. The candidate mentioned in his introduction that he was deployed to the Magistrate’s Commission. He asked who deployed the candidate? Which political party was he a member of when he was a Member of Parliament? How can the candidate assure the Committee that he can uphold independence and impartiality given the political roles he has played?

Ms Zukiswa Mqolomba
After the candidate's presentation on governance and risk, Dr Schreiber noted she quoted the World Bank statement that boards comprised of politically connected persons may play little to no role in exercising the duty of care and may engage in malfeasance. Does the candidate think that if a person is politically connected, that person should not be hired by an executive authority for an administration position in the political context? He asked what the candidate’s general view was on cadre deployment and political involvement?

Ms Komane asked if the PSC played a role in identifying and minimizing malfeasance.

Mr Sibisi said that a responsive, ethical and values-driven public service depends on curbing corruption in government and malpractice, particularly in the area of appointments. How can the PSC strengthen and play a meaningful role in its investigation of unethical conduct and malpractice in the public service?

Ms Malomane said the PSC tabled a March 2019 report in Parliament which observed an increasing number of employees appointed on contract over an extended period in government departments. Does the candidate think that government should appoint senior personnel on a contract basis and what is the rationale for contract appointments of senior management? What are the benefits and the risks of this?

Ms Kibi asked the same question as Mr Sibisi.

Ms Mgweba asked the candidate what the PSC has done well and if the PSC is impactful.

The Chairperson asked the candidate her understanding of the values and principles of the PSC.

Mr Themba Thomas Cyril Dlamini
Dr Schreiber asked the candidate how the PSC could conduct an annual risk survey to detect emerging risks and make an early detection. What is the candidate’s view on the role of political interference, the Commission's role in managing or preventing this in public sector appointments and about cadre deployment and similar risks?

Ms Komane said there is a huge loss of public money to corruption, especially with public servants doing business with the state. In the candidate’s opinion, how can public servants be stopped from doing business with the state since there is legislation already preventing this practice, yet still it continues?

Mr Sibisi asked what the candidate’s vision would be to transform the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality? How can the independence of the PSC be protected since its officials are appointed through the Public Service Act?

Ms Malomane said corruption and maladministration has become a cancer in the public service and it is the new normal which is impacting negatively on the development of this country. What causes corruption and how can the PSC play a meaningful role in preventing corrupt practices? Please outline the current weaknesses in the system and propose solutions.

Ms Kibi said she did not have a question for the candidate.

Ms Mgweba said she knew the candidate had 15 years of experience in the executive. She asked how he has contributed to the public service in the positions he has held and the activities he participated in?

The Chairperson asked what the candidate’s understanding was of the functions of the PSC and the constitutional values and principles governing public administration.

Dr Tholumuzi Luthuli
Ms Mgweba quoted from the candidate's presentation on good governance through risk management: “The manner in which the PSC reports to Parliament must be reconsidered so that while we account through our Portfolio Committee, our work covers public administration and it is not fair to report to Parliament without their presence”. She asked if the employees must be invited as organized labour or if they must be represented by the Department of Public Service and Administration?

Ms Kibi asked if conflict of business interest was efficiently and properly handled by the public service from point of view as a current Commissioner. Please support your answer with reasons.

Ms Malomane said the PSC functions aimed to promote the constitutional values and principles of public administration and to give direction aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures comply with those principles. In the candidate’s view, is the PSC making an impact on the public service and how can it reposition itself to make an impact given its wider mandate of promoting those values and principles governing public administration?

The Chairperson asked what the candidate’s understanding was of the functions of the PSC and the constitutional values and principles governing public administration?

Mr Sibisi said the candidate mentioned he was receiving thousands of calls with complaints. Some departments are problematic in rural areas, for example, the Department of Health. Nurses in maternity wards in KZN particularly have an attitude in assisting patients. There are also a backlog of many disciplinary hearing cases. In the five years that the candidate has been in office as a Commissioner, what has he done to improve the situation? The candidate was different to the other candidates; how would the candidate convince the Committee to appoint him again?

Ms Komane said the candidate spoke a lot about conflict of business interest in his presentation. However, the candidate is not new to this position. There is still a huge loss of public money especially with public servants doing business with the state – which she found frustrating.

The PSC tabled a March 2019 report in Parliament which observed an increasing number of employees appointed on contract over an extended period in government departments. Does the candidate think that government should appoint senior personnel on a contract basis and what is the rationale for contract appointments of senior management? What are the benefits and the risks of this?

Dr Schreiber said he was covered by the previous questions.

Ms Anita Thelma Marshall
Ms Mgweba referred to the candidate's presentation on good governance in which she spoke about the pedantic interpretation of law. How does one balance good interpretation of the law and individual discretion?

Ms Kibi asked the candidate how she thought the PSC should handle human relations amongst Commissioners, management and staff and whether this could bring the PSC into disrepute.

Ms Malomane asked which PSC achievements the candidate personally thought was inadequately celebrated and why.

The Chairperson asked what the candidate’s understanding was of the functions of the PSC and the constitutional values and principles governing public administration.

Mr Sibisi said that a responsive, ethical and values-driven public service depends on curbing corruption in government and malpractice, particularly in the area of appointments. How can the PSC strengthen and play a meaningful role in its investigation of unethical conduct and malpractice in the public service?

Ms Komane asked, based on her research of the PSC, what the candidate’s vision would be to transform the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality. How can the Commission's independence be protected since its officials are appointed through the Public Service Act?

Dr Schreiber asked the candidate to talk about the mandate of the Commission, how far it extends and which part of the public sector is covered by the PSC mandate. What is the candidate’s view on the ongoing debate about enhancing the Commission's powers to make its recommendations more binding?

The meeting was adjourned.