Deliberations

MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE NCOP RULES COMMITTEE ON 25 JUNE 2002 IN THE OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER


Present:

G N M Pandor (Chairperson)
M L Mushwana (Deputy Chairperson)
C Ackermann
M J Bhengu
J L Kgoali
Z S Kolweni
E N Lubidla
M V Moosa
M A Sulliman
M E Surty (Chief Whip)
M P Themba
J N Vilakazi

Staff in attendance: L L Matyolo (Secretary to the NCOP), B V L Momoti, B N Nonyane, J Borien, F Jenkins, R Turrell


Apologies:
No apologies were tendered.

1. Opening

The Chairperson opened the meeting at 10h30.


Consideration of the Minutes of 14 February 2002 & Consideration of the Minutes of 10 May 2002

The Chairperson said that the Minutes of 14 February 2002 and of 10 May 2002 would be considered at the next meeting of the Rules Committee in the third term.


Report of the Subcommittee on Review of the NCOP Rules (Annexure A)

Mr Moosa, Chairperson of the Subcommittee on Review of the NCOP Rules, said that the Report would be presented by the Chief Whip of the Council. The Chief Whip proceeded to present the Report as follows:

Definition of "member":

The Chief Whip indicated that the Subcommittee considered the provisions in the Constitution and the Rules. The Subcommittee's view was that the term as defined in the Rules, was inclusive enough to capture the use of the word permanent and special delegates, as used in the Constitution.

Agreed that:

the definition of "member" remain as provided for in the Rules.


Definition of a sitting:

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee had proposed that the definition be amended to included committee meetings, namely

" sitting day", with reference to the Council, means a day on which the Council sits in plenary and includes committee meetings.

Agreed that:

the definition as proposed be accepted.


Rule 5(3):

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee had proposed that the rule be amended, to provide as follows:

"The public has access to all official notices to members and to all documents tabled in the Council, subject to reasonable measures taken by the Chairperson of the Council in a manner which is consistent with national laws".

Agreed that:

the amendment, as proposed, be accepted.


Rule 10:

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee had proposed that the rule be amended to delete the reference to the Chairperson of Committees and the Deputy Chairperson.

Agreed that:

the amendment, as proposed, be accepted.



Rule 17(1) and (2):

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee had proposed that the rule be amended to increase the number of days from 15 to 20, given that there were more committee meetings, than plenaries.

The Chairperson asked why the Subcommittee was proposing an increase in the number of days for which Members could be absent.

The Chief Whip said that the intention was to allow for a reasonable period. Given the fact that the committee meetings were being included in the definition of sittings, 15 days may be regarded as a rather short period of time.

Ms Kgoali said that she did not agree that the 15 day period be extended to 20 days, given that it was difficult enough to ensure that Members do not exceed the 15 day period of absence.

The Deputy Chairperson said that he did not agree with the increase in the number of days. All that was required from Members who could not attend sittings was for them to indicate the reason for their absence. He asked whether the two time periods would be added together, if the NCOP had not sat for two days and committees had not sat for 13 days.

The Chairperson said that she was concerned about putting too much detail in the provision in the Rules. The Chairperson said that she was uncertain about supporting the increase from 15 to 20 days.

Mr Moosa said that he would support the position that the 15-day period be retained.

Ms Lubidla asked whether the 15-day period included week-ends.

The Chairperson said that it was the period from Monday to Friday, unless a formal sitting of the NCOP was to take place over a week-end.

Mrs Vilakazi said that she supported the view that 15-day period be retained.

Agreed that:

the amendment, as proposed, be rejected.


Rule 28:

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee had proposed that an Ad hoc Subcommittee be established to look into the issue of re-establishing the Office of the Usher of the Black Rod, and that the Subcommittee be chaired by the Chief Whip of the Council.
The Chairperson said that the matter should be referred to the Subcommittee on Internal Arrangements.

Mr Moosa said that the "Rod" should be designed to reflect something unique from each of the provinces.

The Chairperson said that although the NCOP had a particular link or relationship with the provinces, it did not derive its authority from the provinces. The Chairperson said that the NCOP needed to reflect the provincial link and to highlight the national link.

The Chief Whip said that the Subcommittee on Internal Arrangements also needed to look at the functions of the office of the Usher, for example removal of strangers from the House.

Mr Sulliman said that the financial implications of re-establishing the office also needed to be considered.

Agreed that:

The matter be referred to the Subcommittee on Internal Arrangements.
The Subcommittee on Internal Arrangements to report at the Rules Committee meeting in the third term.


Rule 103(2):

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

The Deputy Chairperson said that he was concerned about the reference to senior whips of the parties. He proposed that the word "senior" be deleted.

The Chairperson said that the NCOP did not have party whips. The Chairperson proposed that the wording be amended to reflect that the Chief Whip of Council should consult the provincial whips and whips designated as party whips in terms of the Rules.

Agreed that:
Rule 103(2)(a) be amended as proposed by the Chairperson.
Rule 103(2)(b), as amended, be accepted.


Rule 154:

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

The Chairperson said that the issue was whether the provincial legislatures should be appointing Members to committees of the NCOP. The provinces should be nominating persons to serve on NCOP committees, not appointing them.

Mr Moosa enquired as to who should appoint Members to NCOP committees.

The Chairperson said that that should be the responsibility of the Presiding Officer because that would allow the Presiding Officer to assist in instances where the composition of a committee was not fair or not balanced. The current position is that the Presiding Officer is excluded from the process and cannot act as an arbitrator.

Mr Moosa asked if it was possible that the Chairperson could override the nomination from a party indicating that a particular Member serve on a particular committee. Would the Chairperson only endorse the nomination or would the Chairperson be able to accept or reject the nomination.

The Chairperson said that if she as the Presiding Officer noticed that provinces were not nominating female Members to certain committees, she would be able to take the matter up with the Speakers. If the provinces were appointing Members, then there would be nothing which the Presiding Officer could do.

Mr Moosa said that the matter needed to be considered more closely.

The Deputy Chairperson said that the NCOP was an autonomous institution which would have the final say regarding nominations. However, it would only be in exceptional instances where the Chairperson would not accept the nomination.

Mr Ackermann said that the Rules needed to provide for those exceptional instances.

The Chief Whip said that given the discussion, he supported the view that the rule be amended to indicate that provinces nominated Members to NCOP committees.

Agreed that rule 154(1), as amended, be accepted.


Rule 166:

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Agreed that rule 166(1)(a), as amended, be accepted.


Rule 230(1):

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Agreed that rule 230(1), as amended, be accepted.


Rule 240A(1):

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Mr Moosa said that with respect to subsection (4), the word "must" should be replaced with "may".

The Chairperson said that the phrase "a compendium of background information" should be replaced by the phrase "background information".

Mr Moosa said that consideration should also be given to providing for the Premier of a province to make a statement in the NCOP.

The Chairperson said that it was an issue which could be considered at a later stage.

The Chairperson said that with respect to subsection (5), the rule should be amended to indicate the following, "…. a member of each provincial delegation or where applicable a member of each of the parties may comment on the executive statement."

Agreed that:
1) Rule 240A(1) - (3) and (6) be accepted.

2) Rule 240A(4) be amended as proposed by Mr Moosa and the Chairperson.

3) Rule 240A(5), be amended as proposed by the Chairperson.


Rule 241:

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Agreed that:

1) the amendment, as proposed, be accepted.




Rule 243(3):

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Agreed that:

the amendment, as proposed, be accepted.


Rule 244(3):

The Chief Whip presented the amended Rule as drafted by the Subcommittee.

Agreed that:

the amendment, as proposed, be accepted.


The Chairperson of the NCOP thanked the Members of the Subcommittee on Review of the Rules for their report. The Chairperson said that there needed to be a review of the Constitution, particularly in respect of the NCOP, in order to assess whether what had been formulated then, remains appropriate now.

The Chairperson said that the secretariat should ensure that the text of the Rules was amended during the recess so that copies of the Rules would be available for Members when they returned.

The meeting adjourned at 11h40.




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G N M Pandor, MP
Chairperson of the NCOP