SAPS/DPCI response to violence in Gauteng & KZN; with Deputy Minister

This premium content has been made freely available

Police

16 July 2021
Chairperson: Ms T Joemat-Pettersson (ANC)
Share this page:

Meeting Summary

Video: Portfolio Committee on Police, 17 July 2021

The South African Police Service (SAPS) briefed the Portfolio Committee on the police response to the violence in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal noting that the current situation was volatile with continued mobilisation. The presentation detailed the background of the unrest, the setup of the Operational Command Centre, overview of the current situation and emerging threats, unrest-related incidents, the actual daily deployments, the current operational and investigation approaches and the financial expenditure estimates. SAPS resources had been stretched but had been supplemented by the SANDF deployment. The looting of malls and shops continues as well as the targeting of foreign-owned shops. Food shortages resulted in queues in parts of KwaZulu-Natal. Attempts had been made to target critical infrastructure. The total number of reported unrest-related incidents from 7 July to 16 July 2021 was 17 in Gauteng and 27 in KZN.

The Committee noted with unanimous disappointment that SAPS could have done better in responding to the origins of the unrest. The Committee asked if the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) was investigating the coordinated unrest as a terrorist activity in terms of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Act? What were the implications of such a classification? When could the Committee expect more arrests? The Committee highlighted the failure of the intelligence environment within South Africa. Members said that crime intelligence had failed the nation. The Ministry of Intelligence had provided an intelligence dossier to SAPS informing it of an imminent threat as a result of Mr Zuma’s arrest. It was abundantly clear, for all to see, that SAPS had been caught sleeping. The Committee was not inspired with confidence that SAPS was in control. Would SAPS concede that it failed to respond to intelligence from the State Security Agency prior to the commencement of the violent unrest? Was this failure as a result of deliberate sabotage by some within the police or was it a result of pure incompetence? Members asked about the capacity of the SAPS crime intelligence division and of public order policing (POP) units. The Marikana Commission had stated that SAPS had to upgrade public order policing. Was this done? SAPS resourcing was also brought into question. The staff complement had been depleted in police stations. Police stations did not have enough armament and ammunition.

Members raised concern about food security being threatened in South Africa. With every mall that was looted and destroyed there would be an increase in food shortages. Were the malls that were undamaged being protected? Members said that the unrest needed to be prevented from moving to rural areas. Members asked questions about the women and children who had been arrested. They asked about the 1.5 million rounds of ammunition stolen during the looting that had been imported by SANDF. This could not be confirmed so the Committee requested a report on the matter. The Committee also wanted a SAPS comprehensive report on the violent unrest, its responses and the lessons learned. The Committee would make an oversight visit to the hotspot areas in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng on 20 and 21 July.

Minutes:

Meeting report


The Chairperson asked for a minute’s silence for the police officer who had died.

She noted she had approved the National Commissioner's request that the presentation document arrived only today not earlier as everyone was working under pressure. Members were not to complain about this. The information was changing on an hourly basis. Members needed to appreciate that this was an abnormal situation. The Committee would be playing its oversight role and provide recommendations and advice on how to move forward. She was finalising arrangements for the Committee’s oversight visit starting on Monday 19 July to KZN and Gauteng.

Lt Gen F Francinah Vuma, Deputy National Commissioner: Asset and Legal Management, introduced the SAPS delegation which included the Deputy Provincial Commissioners for KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.

Deputy Minister of Police, Cassel Mathale, said the South African Police appreciated appearing before the Committee and coming to account to the people of South Africa. South Africa had experienced moments that were unprecedented in its history. The police had encountered a moment that no one thought would happen where it had to act against the former head of State, Jacob Zuma, to undergo the sentence given by the Constitutional Court. For five days that was what the country had to go through. The police had to comply with the dictates of the courts to ensure that the law was respected by everybody. This matter culminated in a manner in which everyone appreciated the approach of SAPS in dealing with that difficult and volatile situation. As the matter was concluded people had dispersed without bloodshed. Despite the provocative stance that was adopted by agent provocateurs the police carried out that task in a dignified manner without any incident happening.

Everyone knows what happened in the country after that Wednesday which had led to SAPS appearing before the Committee. This unprecedented moment that the police was dealing with led to a reaction that was too huge in terms of the expectations placed on law enforcement and security forces in the country. Despite this difficulty, Deputy Minister Mathale acknowledged that the police could have acted better than it did. Under the circumstances he commended the work that SAPS and the security forces had done in ensuring that the country did not go down a slippery slope which had no end. Currently, some kind of normalcy had been restored. This was possible not only through the work of the police but also through the response of South Africans to what was unfolding which was contained to KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. Nothing had spilled over into other parts of the country. Community members and leaders from different sections of society rose to the occasion and refused to allow for violence in their areas. Ordinary South Africans stood up as lines of defence to ensure that what was unfolding was brought to an end. The police also appreciated the intervention by President Cyril Ramaphosa in providing leadership and for allowing the deployment of the South African National Defence Force to complement the work the police were doing to ensure normalcy returned. South Africa was not over this moment.

The Deputy Minister appreciated the stance taken by the Committee when the Chairperson indicated that the Committee was not going to sit back and be armchair critics. The Committee was going to go to the ground to interact with communities. The acts of vandalism happened in their constituencies. It did not occur in areas that did not have constituency offices of public representatives. It was important that all public representatives, not only the Committee, had a role to play. Police would not succeed in ensuring that there was law and order on their own without the leadership of the country playing their part. He highlighted the importance of members of parliament, members of provincial legislatures and councillors. It was through the collective effort of this leadership of governance structures, together with communities, the private sector and the security industry. All these role-players needed to come together to respond to this challenge by mobilising the people of South Africa. Lawlessness could not be allowed to establish itself in the country. This needed to be brought to an end. South Africa would only succeed if everyone worked together. SAPS was here to outline what it was doing and what it was going to do going forward, together with the security forces, to ensure that the situation was brought under control. He emphasised that the police understood the challenge at hand and appreciating they could have done more and better. He did not want to downplay the mammoth task the police officers were confronted with and commended their contribution to the normalisation of the situation.

SAPS on the police response to violence in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal
Major Gen Leon Rabie, Head of Police Strategic Management, briefed the Committee on the current situation of the unrest, what had transpired and how SAPS was responding. The presentation detailed the background of the unrest, the set up of the Operational Command Centre, overview of the current situation and emerging threats, unrest-related incidents, the actual daily deployments, current operational approach and investigation approach and the financial expenditure estimates.

Overview of current situation
• The situation was volatile with continued mobilisation in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal.
• SAPS resources were stretched but have been supplemented by the SANDF deployment. Incidents where law enforcement was shown to be participating in the looting, undermined the credibility of law enforcement.
• Looting of malls and shops continues as well as the targeting of foreign-owned shops.
• Numerous malls have been closed in hotspot areas in an attempt to prevent looting.
• Food shortages are resulting in queues in certain parts of KwaZulu-Natal.
• A growing number of taxi associations have declared that they will not allow protest action as it will inhibit their income (Gauteng, Limpopo, Mpumalanga).
• Alexandra hostel dwellers attempted to target the police station on 13 July 2021 (they have stated that they intend targeting SAPS officials).
• Attempts made to target critical infrastructure. The targeting of KZN schools with feeding schemes. Targeting of the King Shaka International Airport, Richards Bay and Durban Ports. Threats against the Impala Eskom Sub-Station in Empangeni were thwarted on 14 July 2021. Distribution centres in Cato Ridge in KZN, Value Logistics Warehouse in EThekwini were targeted, in addition to companies such as Unilever in the River Horse Valley Industrial Area.
• Communities are beginning to group together to protect their areas. Communities patrolling to prevent looting. It was alleged that some were using this as a cover to target shops later.
• No indication of widespread planning of national shutdown.
• Public transport is negatively impacted with taxi, bus and train operations being disrupted. This will impact on the economy due to lost wages as well as lost production time.
• The South African petroleum refineries (SAPREF) declared a “force majeure” on non-fulfilment of contract obligations. This may lead to fuel shortages.

Current provincial hotspots
In Gauteng the situation was calm. SAPS members were following up on looted items, escorting recovery of damaged ATMs and distribution of food.

In KZN the situation was relatively calm. There were sporadic incidents of looting. Security forces deployed to harbour, airport, at-risk malls refineries and N3 route.

Unrest-related incidents
Total reported unrest incidents from 7 July to 16 July 2021 was 17 in Gauteng and 27 in KZN.

Head: Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations (Hawks) comments
Lt Gen Seswantsho Godfrey Lebeya, DPCI National Head, said that the presentation mentioned the investigation environment where DPCI was also playing a role. There were some who were arrested on public violence matters that the detectives were dealing with. Instigators had been identified and DPCI was working on that. He would not detail the nature of the investigations that DPCI was dealing with. DPCI had approached people who it accused of inciting violence. DPCI was working closely with the prosecutors who provided guidance as to whether the information was sufficient for DPCI to confront the individuals it had accused. When DPCI monitored, it focused on those who were seriously instigating others.

Those accused liked to plead in public that they were not doing anything wrong whereas the evidence that DPCI gathered suggested otherwise. He was not going to mention any names as it was the usual practice that DPCI only mentioned the names once the people had been arrested and charged. DPCI appreciated the information that was shared with them by the public. He asked for the public to continue to do that because most of the instigators spoke to their communities. DPCI welcomed the information and asked that the information continue to come in so that when it took the necessary action it knew that it had sufficient evidence to prove the matter when it went to court. The presentation indicated that the detectives were working in all the provinces. DPCI was available in all the provinces. DPCI made use of the intelligence community ensuring that the potential suspects needing to be addressed were indeed addressed.

SAPS KZN comments
Maj Gen Phume Makoba, KZN Acting Deputy Provincial Commissioner, said the current situation was relatively calm compared to the previous days when the protests, looting and unrest was experienced. Currently what was happening was that Members of the community were going back to fetch the items that were looted from the shops and left on the streets. People were trying to take whatever was left in the streets. At the same time the business fraternity, assisted by community members, started cleaning up areas like the malls that were looted and damaged. The cleaning up started yesterday already and it was continuing. This was observed as the President was going mall to mall and to the areas that were damaged and affected. In certain areas Members were coming on board and trying to assist the police in ensuring that their areas were safe. The community members were trying to identify possible looters or criminals that wanted to take advantage of the situation in their areas. Major malls and national key points, and other critical infrastructure, were being looked after and visibility ensured.

The police were deployed as well the SANDF in those areas. The malls under protection included Gateway and Pavilion. At some national key points the police had 30 deployments and in other areas there were random patrols and more visibility. These included Durban Harbour, SAPREF, the Engen Refinery as well as the King Shaka International Airport. These were some of the critical infrastructure where there was deployment. The cases mentioned in the presentation were under investigation. Some were being done by local detectives at a district level as well as coordinated at the provincial level. There were also a few cases undertaken by DPCI. She said this was what she could add to the presentation that was already given. The situation was relatively quieter than what was witnessed in the past few days.

SAPS Gauteng comments
Maj Gen Tommy Mthombeni, Gauteng Acting Deputy Provincial Commissioner, said that starting from yesterday the situation was relatively calm. From time to time SAPS received information from intelligence reports. The most affected area in Gauteng was the Bara Mall. SAPS received threats about Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital. The Maponya Mall was also under threat because it was still standing. There were problems in Marlboro about the Pan African Mall. There were also a number of incidents at the Chris Hani Mall, Mamelodi Mams Mall and Tembisa Plaza. SAPS and SANDF were deployed at these malls. The SANDF was also deployed at the national key points of the Union Buildings and OR Tambo International Airport.

There were currently 32 deaths in the province. There was an incident where ten people passed away because of a stampede in a mall in Midlands. There were six deceased in Tembisa South. The incident happened on 13 July but the bodies were only discovered yesterday. One of the participants at the time indicated that his friend did not come out of the mall. The police moved in with the fire brigade and found six bodies which were burned. It was important to add that the current arrest numbers might be different to the presentation with a current total of 862 arrests.

Deputy Minister Mathale noted that this was an unprecedented moment and it required everyone to come on board so that the challenge could be responded to appropriately. Together South Africa would succeed in this difficult moment.

Discussion
Mr A Whitfield (DA) thanked the Chairperson for quickly convening the meeting under very difficult circumstances. It demonstrated that Parliament was serious about holding the Executive accountable and to get answers that South Africans desperately needed. He echoed the sentiments of the Deputy Minister in paying tribute to private security as well as civilian community policing structures for acting as a force multiplier to support SAPS and the Defence Force in their efforts to contain the violence seen across KwaZulu-Nata and Gauteng. It was also right for the Committee to thank the hardworking police officers who were on the ground trying their best against what has been an obvious failure of SAPS as recognised by the Deputy Minister. SAPS could have done better in responding to the origins of the unrest that was experienced.

His first question was directed to General Lebeya. Was DPCI investigating the current coordinated unrest as a terrorist activity in terms of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Act? If yes, then what were the implications of such a classification? If not, why not? There was sufficient information including comments from the President to say that this was a coordinated and instigated attack on the State. The Committee needed an answer to that question. It had been reported by the Minister of Intelligence that an intelligence dossier was provided to SAPS informing them of an imminent threat as a result of Mr Zuma’s arrest. It was abundantly clear, for all to see, that SAPS had been caught sleeping. Even today, five days later, the Committee was not inspired with confidence that SAPS was in total control of this situation. Would Lt Gen Vuma concede that SAPS had failed to respond to intelligence received from the State Security Agency prior to the commencement of the violent unrest? Was this failure, in Lt Vuma’s opinion, as a result of deliberate sabotage of some within the police or was it a result of pure incompetence?

He said his next question deserved to be answered as it was critical to understand what the future of this unrest looked like. It had been alleged that over a million rounds of ammunition was looted from a container in Durban Harbour while under the protection of SAPS. He did not think it was possible that such an event could occur without the cooperation of corrupt SAPS members. Could SAPS confirm that this incident did in fact occur and whether SAPS members were involved? Could SAPS confirm what steps were being taken to recover this ammunition? That was enough ammunition to start a war. SAPS needed to take this seriously and the Committee needed to receive a response. The Committee needed to receive answers to these questions today. The Members could not be waiting for answers to be emailed to them. He encouraged the Chairperson to demand those answers from the police.

Mr A Shaik Emam (NFP) commended the Chairperson for her prompt response to Members’ request for an oversight meeting. He thanked the police, security companies, the vigilante groups and the neighbourhood watches who had ultimately been left on their own to protect their communities. Of the 12 who had been identified, when could the Committee expect more arrests? The picture SAPS painted right now was that the situation was a lot calmer than it was previously and that it had things under control. He said that being on the ground in KZN, in eThekwini, that was not the case.

He was in touch with police officers at all levels in the province and in the country. What SAPS was saying was clearly not the case. Firstly, there was a massive shortage of police officers coming to work because they lived in communities where their lives had already been threatened. Secondly, there was no transport for them to come to work. The staff complement had been depleted in police stations. Police stations did not have enough armament and ammunition. Thirdly, based on what has happened it needed to be admitted that this was an attack on the State. It was an attempt to make this country ungovernable and was an act of terrorism. It needed to be understood that there was a lot of infighting and everyone knew from where it was coming. There were those who were aligned to those who were promoting the violence. There were those who were aligned to defending the people of this country and the Constitution. How was SAPS dealing with this to ensure that its current deployment of officers was actually there to defend the Constitution and its people and were not part of what was going on in the country? The same applied to the SANDF.

There was no coordination whatsoever in KZN. He had spent time calling police stations and calls were not taken. He saw looting taking place and called the nearest police station. The police stations could do nothing because they were exhausted and did not have the manpower. The police stations were looking for security to guard the police stations. That was how bad the situation was. It was not SAPS fault.

He noted intelligence in South Africa. He had previously raised that there were greater risks internally than a risk of an external attack on South Africa. It had been identified a long time ago but not much had been done about it. There was a lot of condemnation for vigilante groups. These people were spending day and night on the street trying to protect their communities. It had nothing to do with racism. They had to protect their community because SAPS was not able to do it. Metro Police was not able to do it. The presentation spoke about the army coming in. Where were they? The army was supposed to be working in coordination with SAPS.

The Committee did not want what happened in Cape Town to occur where the SANDF was working in isolation and there was no coordination with SAPS. He had recently received reports that Isipingo Market was burning down. He would make 20 phone calls right now and nobody would be able to go there and assist those people. If someone was in possession of stolen goods then they were criminals in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act. How was it that so many people were allowed to be in possession of stolen goods? He could not understand.

What was SAPS understanding of the curfew put in place by the President? A lot of the looting took place after the 9pm deadline right in full view of the police. The police were driving past and allowing people to be on the street. What was the purpose of the regulations if people did not comply with them? The police were not acting appropriately even though it was in their powers. He had begged every head of SAPS.

He noted with concern how Clicks had R180 million worth of goods taken together with vaccines. There was a major threat that that place might be blown up. No one could get any assistance. How was SAPS going to do this differently? Their intelligence had let them down. It did not mean that because it was quieting down that it would not start in any other provinces because the people were migrating. The people were taking area by area. The hands of SAPS members were tied. Government had tied their hands because officers could not even shoot a criminal in front of them. There were 25 000 soldiers. Specifically, where was SAPS going to be putting them? Every town and suburb in KZN and Gauteng were being attacked simultaneously.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) discussed the levels of training in police stations. The National Commissioner said there was level one and level two. He also said that there were resources in all police stations to combat crime in such situations until it escalated to level three. Then public order policing would be dispatched. What was happening at Jabulani Mall next to Jabulani Police Station? He saw police officers standing outside the gate with their hands in their pockets. There were about five Metro Police officers who reacted and started arresting those looters. What was happening there? Why were these police officer standing outside the police station and watching with their hands in their pockets? It would have been better if the officers stayed inside the police station instead of going outside and being spectators. There were no shotguns or any weapons in their hands.

What was the meaning of that? What lessons had SAPS learned from this past week’s violence and its responses? When the Committee looked at the information from crime intelligence, it did not know if it was true or not. Crime intelligence said that they gave out the information that certain places would be attacked. The police then did nothing. Did crime intelligence give out the information or not? What was the capacity of the crime intelligence division of the SAPS? What was the capacity of the public order policing units? Were the units overly cautious in their approach? He remembered the Marikana Commission stated that SAPS had to upgrade the standards of the public order policing. Was that done? He did not see any form of public order policing being dispatched during the unrest. In most areas that he saw there was no public order policing but South Africa did have them. He thought there were more than 13 000 of them. What capacity did SAPS have for public order policing?

Was there any interaction with the community police forums in the affected areas? What he had seen in his area was that when information was received, there was action. They were able to stop the burning and looting of malls. There were a lot of police officers working for crime intelligence but they did not see this coming. How was that possible? It was seen on social media platforms that looters were attacking a certain place. What was the police doing with that information? How was it that the public was getting that information but intelligence was not getting it? That was incompetence.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) commended Maj Gen Nonhlanhla Zulu who acted with wisdom, sensitivity and professionalism when she effected the arrest of former President Jacob Zuma. He appreciated that she did not make a spectacle out of it that could have sparked a reaction from those who were allegedly protecting the President. She did not take a large delegation with her which could have exacerbated the situation. Well done to Major General Zulu.

His first question was about the channels of communication between the police and private security companies. It looked like there was no communication at all. When something was about to happen to a mall the security companies would be the first ones to detect that. Were security companies able to immediately communicate with the police or SANDF? Why did it seem that there was no communication? He agreed with the comments about the failure of crime intelligence.

Even though there were denials and even though the Minister said it was effective the fact was that crime intelligence in the country had failed the nation. It was correct for the Minister and the Department of Police to accept that they had failed. What was planned was all over. Everyone knew when the looters were going to hit. One could have forgiven the police for what happened in KZN because the Minister of Defence said they did not think that malls would be attacked in that way. While malls were being attacked in KZN, information went out that after KZN they would come for Gauteng. One would have expected a ring fence of security around Gauteng and its malls to ensure that what happened in KZN did not happen in Gauteng. Nothing was done. The police and the security were caught napping. This was totally unacceptable. Were the police happy with their reactionary rather than preventative tactics? Prevention was better than cure. With every mall that looted and destroyed there would be an increase in food shortages. Food security was being threatened in South Africa. What was being done to ensure that all the malls were not lost?

Rev Meshoe was in Soweto yesterday. He met a gentleman from Pretoria who had brought food for his parents as they could not find bread in Soweto. This was totally unacceptable. Were the other malls still standing being protected? If they were not protected then why were they not protected? Why did it take long to approve the national call-up of additional reinforcement? The presentation stated that there were 2 245 SAPS reservists who were waiting for approval. How long would they be awaiting approval while malls were being torched? Malls were being burned while people desperately needed food. Private property needed to be protected. If there was red tape then the red tape needed to be cut. For a long time the Committee had complained about red tape. It took unnecessarily too long to make urgent approvals. Mooi River Plaza was the hottest hotspot in South Africa. Whenever troubled started, it started there with destruction of trucks. What kind of security was in that area? Why were police failing to secure it? It was definitely a hotspot that had to be prioritised. It was heart-breaking to see all the trucks transporting food being looted. The stores were empty because nothing was done there.

He raised the container of ammunition that had been looted. If there were police there, were there any arrests? If not, why not? There should have been arrests as that ammunition would be used against South Africans and law enforcement agencies. Yesterday he spoke to police in Soweto and in Vosloorus, at Maponya Mall and at Chris Hani Mall. The police vans had retreated as if they were running away. The police officers said that they were vulnerable because they were not allowed to shoot the criminals. It was as if the looters on the ground knew that the police would not do anything to them so they charged the police. The police said to save their lives they had to run away because they were told strictly not to shoot. What were the police doing there?

The Chairperson said that if the Members made long speeches, they would have only a short time for responses. She asked Rev Meshoe to ask his last question and not to make long speeches. These were the very same Members who said that they did not want responses in writing. If the Committee did not manage its time then the Members should not complain to her.

Rev Meshoe said his last question was on the security of the constables who had to use public transport to and from work. The constables said that the public saw them and knew where they were staying. What was being done to protect police officers particularly constables?

Mr O Terblanche (DA) noted the Committee had requested this meeting and he appreciated that the Chairperson had organised this meeting. The public expected the Committee to hold the Minister and the Police Commissioner to account but they were not present in the meeting. It was a pity that the Minister and Police Commissioner were not present.

There was a total failure. Law enforcement totally collapsed in KZN. It was quite obvious that the police did not have any plan in place. He could not find senior management. If anyone wanted to phone senior management they were not available. He managed to get hold of the National Commissioner but otherwise certain people were just not available. Something needed to be done about this. The police battled with resources. They did not have ammunition. That was a total mess and yet it was expected that they protect the community. The public were left on their own because the police were just not there. The police did not have any plan and were definitely caught napping. He asked about the recommendations stemming from the Panel of Experts, the Farlam Commission, and even the National Development Plan. Why was that not implemented yet? On training of police officers, he had not seen POP training and how to deal with crowds. The police did not have the protective equipment to ensure minimum force. Why did the police not have it? Some of the crimes committed could be classified as terrorism and treason. It was definitely sedition. Were people going to be charged for that? Was SAPS investigating crimes like that?

Apparently during 2016 a police circular was sent out indicating that police officers must not use live ammunition. He did not want people to be shot. Nobody wanted that. The police still needed to defend themselves. Was there such a circular and what was indicated in that? Section 205 of the Constitution stated that the police had an obligation to protect lives and property. Why had the police not done that? The police needed to investigate lessons to be learned from this unrest. Were there going to be investigations? Was there going to be consequence management? He knew he was going to say something unpopular but in any respectable country the Minister of Police would have resigned if something like this happened. The Minister of Police had been in hiding during the entire unfolding of these events. Where was the Minister?

Dr P Groenewald (FF+) said the question should be asked: Why are we where we are? What happened? Why was the country in this situation? Members of Parliament, representing the people, in the Portfolio Committee on Police, needed to ensure that there was proper oversight and that the Executive accounted to Parliament. He had been on this Committee for many years. For so many years all these weaknesses and problems had been identified. How many times had the Committee said that the situation was unacceptable? One just needed to look at the documents, the BRRR reports, the investigations and recommendations by this Committee. He requested that the Committee received a comprehensive report from the security cluster. This should include the SANDF and even the State Security Agency. Thereafter the Committee must come forward with a comprehensive plan on needed to change within the police service. The country was reaping the fruits of SAPS not being up to standard. He saluted those SAPS members who were working hard, who were doing their best and who were overstretched.

Looking at social media, he could distinguish between fake and real news. He saw how police members were caught on video looting with the looters. It was totally unacceptable. That was proof that there was a serious problem within SAPS. If it was one or two then that might have been fine but there were too many videos going around. There were too many SAPS members who were part of the looting. Mr Shaik Emam had referred to some of the incidents. The Committee had an obligation to ensure that what was decided in this Committee must actually happen in practice. It had to be implemented or else the Committee was also to be blamed for what was going on.

Part of the whole problem in South Africa was, and he had said to the President was the virus of impunity. There was no such thing that when people were caught, there was a conviction. The conviction rate in South Africa was about 17%. That meant a criminal had an 83% chance of getting away. People just got away with impunity. Members had spoken today of how the police were merely watching as people were looting. Nothing happened. Despite the curfew and the prohibition on gatherings in terms of the Disaster Management Act, nothing happened. There was also the gathering at Nkandla before Mr Zuma handed himself over to the police where nothing happened.

He said that there should be no misunderstanding. The intelligence structures including crime intelligence, military intelligence and the State Security Agency failed the people of South Africa. It was no use to react now. That should have been done before the time. One did not have to be intelligent to know that when the gathering took place at Nkandla that there was going to be trouble. It already then surfaced on social media that people were going to protest and loot. He could provide SAPS with the clips. The atmosphere was already created. The circumstances boiled up and still the security forces, and intelligence services, came forward and said they had it under control. The security forces did not have it under control.

According to presentation 2 004 SANDF members had been deployed. However, the Defence Minister had announced that in KZN alone 10 000 had been deployed. This was misleading the public. People were worried and scared. They heard 10 000 soldiers had been deployed but now the police said it was only 2 004. That in itself was treason against the people of South Africa.

He wanted to hear from General Lebeya who said that DPCI was gathering information from communities. What steps did DPCI and SAPS take to inform communities who they could contact, in a confidential way, to give information? He did not see any effort. On television, it should have been displayed all over in advertisements stating that if communities had any information they could contact certain numbers. What had been done to inform people in the community, who knew what was going on, how to make contact and how to give information on a confidential basis?

He heard about the police running out of rubber bullets and ammunition. Private security companies had to supply the police with ammunition. Was it true? He had heard that it was true. He wanted a response from SAPS. What coordination did the police have with local community security structures such as neighbourhood watches? What coordination did the police have with neighbourhood watches and farm watches? The reason he raised this was because he knew for a fact that the intelligence on activities from some of these local farm and neighbourhood watches was better than that of the police. They had more information and warned the police when certain activities were going to happen but the police did nothing about it. What coordination was taking place? The whole focus now was on Gauteng and KZN on all the hotspots, airports and shopping malls. What was SAPS doing as far as rural areas were concerned? What steps was SAPS taking to prevent an overflow? The unrest was going to move to rural areas. He wanted to put it on record that if the unrest were to happen in rural areas, there was going to be bloodshed. He was informing SAPS now in a very responsible way. The communities were not going to allow their lives to be threatened and for their families to be unsafe. The police needed to tell the public how it was going specifically secure the rural areas.

Ms P Faku (ANC) paid her condolences to the family of General Mfazi. He was a humble servant of the people. She appreciated his contribution in making a better South Africa. She thanked the police officers for their contribution in the past week. Efforts were made, as the Deputy Minister had said, but not enough was done. The Committee was not happy with what was happening in the country. When the violence started in Gauteng it was seen that at least there was an effort from the police. The Committee was relying mostly on the media to see what was happening. In KZN some of the police were just standing there and doing nothing. Perhaps the Committee needed to have a comprehensive report, as some of Members had said, to detail what had really happened. She was now worried that no one was taking SAPS seriously.

Some of the law enforcement officers were caught being part of the looting. That was why the SAPS brand was being damaged. It was something that needed to be looked into. During this period the SAPS communication strategy had not been strong. Those were the areas that SAPS needed to improve. Some of these had already be spoken to in the Committee through recommendations to SAPS. Some of these concerns could have been avoided a long time ago. The Committee would want information from IPID about the police who were found looting. She hoped that serious action was taken against them. She had seen Metro Police but had not seen SAPS in some of the pictures that had been shared. She was also worried about Government infrastructure that had been damaged during the unrest. She thanked the business community for trying to assist SAPS during this process. It was seen in Gauteng where people stood up. One thing that needed to be avoided at all costs was the involvement of some community members who wanted to take the law into their own hands.

That was why the Committee had been emphasising to the National Commissioner that it needed to ensure that community police forums (CPFs) were in communities to help the police. If there was visible CPFs in communities and malls, then perhaps some of the looting could have been avoided. In general the state of things did not look good but some efforts had been made. The Committee appreciated the work it had seen in the past few days.

Her main concern was when the SANDF had to play the role of SAPS. Why were people not taking the police seriously anymore? She also felt that intelligence had failed the people of South Africa during the unrest. SAPS needed to be honest about this so that some of the scenes seen in the past week could be avoided. She hoped that SAPS would not relax as the situation was calming down. Intelligence needed to be on the ground to ensure that these events do not happen again. In the Eastern Cape, the chairperson of a Taxi Association was shot dead this past week.

Members had raised critical matters in this meeting – they were not here to criticise but to look into those areas. There were also financial restraints but it was important for SAPS to use procurement deviations as long as it could mitigate why it had deviated. She did not even want to discuss financial constraints when it came to SAPS. She said that this was a lesson for South Africans to improve communities in ensuring they were safe. The Minister had a press briefing yesterday saying that some people were even trying to attack hospitals, ARV factories and schools. What had happened to the school safety plan? Where were the programmes that were reported to the Committee? There were a lot of gaps within SAPS especially when it came to intelligence. The country was found wanting for days and days until the President had to deploy the SANDF to Gauteng and KZN.

Mr K Maphatsoe (ANC) agreed with Ms Faku that there was no use to cry over spilt milk. The police had been complaining for a long time that their personnel was very low. The President had approved the training of the 7000 new police officers but Covid-19 prevented that. Members needed to be realistic. Intelligence was caught napping but not only crime intelligence. There was no way for intelligence to work in silos. SAPS saw the unrest coming due to the arrest of Mr Zuma. On Sunday there had been a gathering in Nkandla and he applauded the reasonable manner in which the police acted.

When the unrest started it caught the police officers by surprise. The police were overstretched because they were hitting a moving target. The police were not all over and these people knew what they were doing. The people knew that the police would come late. His constituency office was near the Protea Glen mall and it was also vandalised. There was an element of criminality. How could people vandalise a constituency office of a political party? The unrest was hijacked and the criminals took over. Jabulani Mall was opposite the police station and people said that the police were putting their hands in their pockets. That mall serviced thousands of people. He imagined that the police assessed the situation and realised that they would have been overpowered because they did not expect it to spread like that in Gauteng. The police tried their best wherever they were. It should not be that police were given intelligence and then the police state in the media that they knew who the instigators were. Why did the SSA who knew who the instigators were, not arrest those people immediately? The intelligence services needed to begin to work as a unit. He called for a cluster meeting of committees in Parliament. This unrest could not be stopped if everyone was working in silos. The war would not be won if each unit was doing its own thing. He hoped that Treasury would realise that it was important to increase the police budget. He had heard on a voice note that the police had run out of rubber bullets. People knew that the police would run out of rubber bullets. What would the police officers do if they did not have rubber bullets? That was the only thing that could be used to chase people because they could not use live ammunition. With the limited resources, at least the police had managed that other malls were not burnt. The private security that guarded the mall near his constituency office chased the perpetrators away the first and second days but there was no support for the security guards from the nearby Protea police station. The third day the people came and overpowered the security guards. That was why that mall was destroyed. Some of the security companies did play their role. The security could see that the attacks were planned because on the third day the people came in their numbers at night and overpowered the security company that was there. The relationship between SAPS and security companies needed to be strengthened.

He said that there was no use in complaining. The police were caught napping and that needed to be accepted. The police were overstretched. The intelligence was also very weak because on that Sunday at Nkandla they should have picked up the information. The SSA should have identified which people SAPS needed to monitor 24/7. Then perhaps this situation could have been avoided.

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) appreciated the report. She applauded the community policing forum and youth crime forum that helped communities in protecting infrastructure. She agreed that crime intelligence had failed. The whole of SAPS had failed the people of South Africa because it was caught unready to deal with this. It was unfortunate that there were signs and people were speaking about how they would destroy everything if a certain person was arrested. The infrastructure of South Africa needed to be protected and the people needed to feel safe. She asked was going to happen to the police officers that were found looting. There were videos circulating of police officers looting together with communities. Why were police officers involved in looting? That discouraged communities from even reporting information. How did SAPS expect people to have hope and faith that they would be protected by police officers?

At Protea Mall, Jabulani Mall and Dobsonville Mall in Gauteng where they started destroying the infrastructure there, there were no forces on the ground to protect those areas. It is true that crime intelligence should have report this way before it happened. After the looting started in KZN then Gauteng should have been ready. Gauteng should have protected 90% of the places. The policies on protection need to be revisited – at what point should police officers be able to use their ammunition? There was a Bill coming that spoke about self-defence. When would Parliament be able to pass that Bill? Those policies needed to be revisited to see how the Committee could help SAPS fulfill their mandate. Some of the looters had guns. The Committee needed to look at those policies and see what proposals could be made in Parliament.

Police officers ran out of not only rubber bullets but also handcuffs and had to use their shoelaces to tie people up. SAPS looked like a joke and not serious about protecting communities. What was going to happen to the people who encouraged others to loot? It was not only ordinary people but also leaders of organisations. How were people allowed to become ungovernable and SAPS just let it slide? What was it the police could do to ensure that whoever encouraged others to loot were taken to task. They should be arrested. Going forward the police needed to acknowledge that they had failed. It was up to the Committee to strategize what was needed. There was a shortage of police officers and vehicles in certain areas and people were doing whatever they liked. The Committee needed to get a report from crime intelligence. She was not happy with crime intelligence. How could they not have known that this was going to happen? The damage had been done already but the Committee needed a report to prevent future looting and riots.

The Chairperson said that Members had to shorten their inputs to ensure there was time for oral responses. Members became very annoyed with her if the responses had to be in writing. Members made it very difficult for her to manage them. Ms Moss would ask her questions and then there would be no more questions. The meeting would continue until 1.30pm.

Ms L Moss (ANC) appreciated the Committee had held a meeting today. When she witnessed the bad things happening in the country she nearly lost her mind. She saw that the unrest was coming when she observed the Nkandla gathering on Sunday 4 July 2021. Most of the people who were attending that event were not social distancing and did not wear a mask. There was also a 9pm curfew. Why did the police allow those people not to comply with Covid-19 regulations? She did not want to speak about was happening over the last few days. She wanted to speak about the Western Cape where there had been taxi violence for the last two months. There were no arrests by the police on taxi violence and it continued every day. Last week, a woman councillor was shot dead in Crossroads. It seemed as if organised crime was very high in South Africa.

It was not the first time that there was burning and looting. Every few months of the year there were riots in South Africa. One never heard that people were arrested. People could not just do whatever they wanted. It looked as if there was no order in South Africa. Members of Parliament made laws and they needed to ensure that these laws were implemented. The people who implemented these laws were also the police. After all of this the Committee needed a constructive report on the way forward. The Committee wanted a plan from Cabinet on how South Africa would be moving forward. The country needed to be saved. On Sunday 18 July the country would celebrate the life of Nelson Mandela. What was the country celebrating if this country was destroyed by those individuals? She felt very hurt. She asked the religious groups to pray for the country. There was too much hatred in this country.

The Chairperson said women had been were arrested in front of their children. The children were left without care. How many children had been arrested? If this was true, what was being done? Minors had been involved in the looting. The Committee would find out about calling a cluster meeting. Members had also raised questions in the chat. The Committee wanted to know how ready SAPS was in case there would be a spill over into rural areas and other provinces. Mr Shaik Emam also wanted to know about residential areas. Were the names of instigators going to be released? This was a well-coordinated and well-orchestrated campaign. The Committee wanted to those culprits being apprehended and brought to book. The criminal justice system could not fail South Africa. The Committee wanted those culprits to be prosecuted and rot in jail.

Deputy Minister response
Deputy Minister Mathale thanked the Members for their constructive criticism and proposals. The National Commissioner was able to join the meeting during the course of the deliberations. He had been on the platform for quite a while and would lead the responses to the questions. Members needed to appreciate and be aware of the situation that South Africa was currently in. It was not a normal environment. SAPS was grateful that the Members understood why the report was only brought before the Committee this morning. This was not a normal environment. This was not a normal appearance by SAPS. It was appearing before the Committee in the midst of a challenge gripping the country. It was important that the meeting was conducted in such a manner that everyone was aware of that situation and allowed space for the operatives to do their work.

SAPS would take the advice that was given. SAPS would ensure that it strengthened its interaction with the communities. CPFs, neighbourhood watches, farm watches and all organised community activities that were intended to fight against crime were important. SAPS should strengthen its interface with the security industry because the security industry was regulated within the space of the South African police so that the coordination was enhanced. Mr Shaik Emam's question was a bit puzzling because everyone knew that the army was there. Since the announcement by the President the army was deployed in the two affected provinces and visible in the areas that mattered the most. The question should be: why did the army not come when this thing started? The deployment had been made. The National Commissioner would lead the responses.

The Chairperson welcomed the National Commissioner and thanked the Deputy Minister for staying in the meeting. The Commissioner had received compliments on how the situation at Nkandla was managed, but he had also received some serious concerns from Members. The Committee would give the Commissioner a report on that. There were serious concerns about the intelligence services and the intelligence that SAPS had provided.

SAPS response
Gen Khehla Sitole, SAPS National Commissioner, apologised for joining the meeting late as he had been in another meeting. At the beginning, when everything started, all the force levels were in various areas of deployment to enforce Covid-19 regulations which included roadblocks and other operational activities. Whoever started the modus operandi wwere aware that the force levels were scattered. At the time the activities started they knew that they were going to beat the police at reaction time. They also capitalised on environmental design factors. SAPS immediately did an analysis of the modus operandi and started responding which included an interception of the modus operandi. On the questions on school safety, rural safety and CPFs, immediately after the operational activation plan was activated, he then instructed the community-centred activation approach. In the community-centred activation approach, SAPS used the community policing strategy, the youth crime prevention framework, the traditional policing concept including rural safety. These activations included the immediate mobilisation of the 'community in blue' and the sensitisation of young people. Whenever there were criminal operations, SAPS reverted to applying the slogan ‘squeezing the space for criminals through the declaration of psychological war’. SAPS took the young person out of reach so that it could collapse the operation.

For the traditional policing concept activation, SAPS would want to get the voice of the traditional leaders telling people to stop what they had been doing so that the criminality could be frustrated. Rural safety included mobilising the farmers as well as the rural communities so they were a part of the process. Those were the activations that had been done.

If police officers were caught looting he would immediately fast track the exchange of the blue uniform through an expeditious process for the orange uniform of Correctional Services.
Once the evidence was confirmed then they were no longer SAPS members. SAPS had beefed up the capacity of the detective takedown operations to enhance the arrest of people who were committing these crimes. The NPA also had organised a team of advocates who were working together with SAPS. Overnight there had been processes running between NPA and SAPS etective board, DPCI and Crime Detection. Hence, the arrest of the main instigator at 2am this morning that was part of those particular efforts. The situation was stabilising. There were more incidents being stopped before they could happen because SAPS had intercepted the modus operandi. SAPS had activated the modus operandi counter strategy. As a result there was an increase in the speed of stabilisation. SAPS was also running a National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure (NATJOINTS) process to provide a collective and collaborated response to the unrest.

Lt Gen Sehlahle Fannie Masemola, Deputy National Commissioner: Policing, said that in KZN as far back as Sunday 4 July, SAPS did have sufficient deployment proportional to the threat at the time. SAPS had taken officers from other provinces to beef up KZN. People did gather. The SAPS operational members on the ground determined when the best moment was to disperse or arrest. The situation went on and SAPS did increase the force levels in that province proportional to the intelligence received on the ground. There was intelligence but some of the reported messages were a bit oddish. When the looting broke out, SAPS did take extra measures to collapse the shifts of police stations in KZN and Gauteng into two so that there were two shifts. This was done so there would be sufficient members on the ground. The call-up for reservists was signed off. The reservists were not necessarily waiting for the call-up. They were told to deploy and that the written call-up would come and it had since been signed off. Those 3 000 reservists were currently on the ground. The POP deployment in KZN had been increased to over 1 000. In Gauteng, SAPS had also beefed up the POP numbers from other provinces. If anything erupted in the other provinces then SAPS would be able to contain it. Currently, both in KZN and Gauteng, all police members were part of the two-shift system. More officers had been called up from other provinces. The only province that officers were not called up from was the Northern Cape. SAPS would assess the situation and act accordingly. All forces were on the ground in other provinces in case anything erupted. Within the two provinces, SAPS had seen what had happened.

POP members primarily used for crowd management, were 5 000 in number. SAPS members at police stations carried only live ammunition. Officers used their firearms only when protecting life –the police officer’s life or anyone else was in danger. There could not be a circular that stated SAPS members could not use their firearm. Members were trained and were allowed to use their firearm when a life was in danger – that was when they were allowed to use their firearms. In this case it was the communities who rushed into the shops and malls. There were instances in KZN where some SAPS members acted. There were cases where they ran short of ammunition. SAPS was keeping an eye on this and would supplement.

On the SANDF deployment, the army had started deploying. From the 2 005 they were building up to the approved 25 000 which the President had granted. He could not definitely say there were 25 000 on the ground. The low number was going up to the approved 25 000.

SAPS had used its resources. There were two helicopters in KZN and two in Gauteng to patrol over the M3 which had been closed. The road had since been opened this morning and it was flowing. SAPS had used both national and provincial members. SAPS first started escorting oxygen as well as medical staff between KZN and Gauteng. It also escorted fuel and was now escorting food and other necessities to the two provinces. A truck hub had been established in south Gauteng and in KZN where all trucks would arrive. From there the police would escort them to various places including the harbour. SAPS was aware that the harbour was bottlenecked but that area was starting to open up. Police also needed to guard national key points like King Shaka International Airport and the harbour. It took a lot of manpower to do that. There were various industries that contained hazardous materials that the police had to protect. Choices had to be made between the more serious and less serious. SAPS could not be at every factory or warehouse in Gauteng and KZN. Other operations were still rolling out.

The police had set up more roadblocks and had made port of entries aware that there would be looted goods crossing out of the country and going to other countries. In one of the border posts in Mpumalanga the police had already found looted clothes en route to Mozambique which had been confiscated. Those operations would continue. SAPS had also instituted an operation to recover stolen goods in both provinces which was going quite well. The areas where the violence started, such as the hostels in Gauteng, were being dealt with by SAPS using all the resources it had available. SAPS would take lessons out of this on what best could be done in the future should something like this happen. SAPS would learn from this so that it in the future it could be in a better position. This was an unprecedented situation that had never happened before. Unfortunately, it did happen and at some point choices had to be made in terms on which key points needed to be saved and which not.

Lt Gen Vuma said most Members had raised questions about the operation environment but there were two questions on support services. There was a question about the lack of ammunition during the unrest when officers were trying to calm the situation. She could confirm that SAPS had sufficient ammunition in storage. This was both live ammunition as well as rubber bullets. There was also a concern about crime intelligence capacity. SAPS had a total of 7 005 members in the crime intelligence environment with 1 531 Public Service Act members and 5 474 SAPS members.

DPCI response
Lt Gen Lebeya replied about crimes committed in a coordinated fashion. DPCI was involved in investigation of ‘crimes against the State’. Part of those crimes were in the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities (POCDATARA) legislation. That law dealt with a variety of crimes. Members had mentioned some of them. In the DPCI investigation it looked at the acts and conduct of individuals. Once DPCI had looked at all the conduct, the Public Prosecutor will decide what type of crime the individual needs to be charged with. Examples of such conduct was incitement, damage to property and intimidation. Some of these crimes were based on the Riotous Assemblies Act. At a later stage there would be consideration whether the individual could be charged under POCDATARA. That decision was taken after the NPA had considered the facts. In the investigation DPCI looked at all the activities surrounding an individual.

On when DPCI was going to arrest the 12 instigators mentioned, DPCI was working closely with the NPA. Two of those matters were being discussed between investigators and prosecutors on the way forward. He could not give a timeline when arrests would take place but DPCI wanted this to be done as speedily as possible. This was an urgent matter. DPCI would be getting directives from the NPA.

DPCI was working hard on the investigation of other matters as the individuals involved in the unrest did their activities in a coordinated way but not in the open. He could not reveal the investigative methods DPCI used but it was working on those matters.

On whether the crimes would also be looked at as treason and sedition, when DPCI investigated the conduct and act perpetrated by an individual, it looked at the types of crimes this particular act can be taken under. There was the main charge and then there was an alternative charge as an alternative competent verdict of an already listed crime. That was the methodology DPCI used in dealing with all types of crimes that fell within the mandate of crimes against the State.

He noted Mr Shaik Emam's comment about the police not publicising contact details for those who had information in the community. Generally, when the police released a media statement it always publicised the contact numbers. The information deposited there would reach the police. He said direct contact with the offices of DPCI was always welcomed. On the internet there were details on how DPCI could be reached. When DPCI released a statement it would publicise contact details. DPCI was present in all the provinces and the provincial heads would be able to facilitate some areas where there might be difficulties. When the communications officer at a national level received this information, it was channelled directly to the relevant people dealing with these matters of crimes against the State.

The Chairperson thanked General Lebeya for the detailed response.

Gen Sitole said that after SAPS had stabilised the situation it intended to put together a post mortem report. This report would point out the resource implications on security forces and would also come from the Justice, Crime Prevention & Security (JCPS) cluster. There was a need to reconsider SAPS resourcing. Its responses had been handicapped by the resourcing. He expressed his appreciation for the information the Committee shared with the police which assisted it to coordinate the responses. The Integrated Resources Committee, under Deputy National Commissioner Vuma, had been activated to ensure that there were no resource constraints on the ground so that the police responses were accurate.

Further questions
The Chairperson asked if the Committee could get a response to the question from Dr Groenewald on rural areas. She also had a concern how SAPS would attend to those who had started attacking and burning homes. The violence was moving into residential areas. There were also complaints about areas where there were no police and SANDF deployments.

Gen Sitole replied that SAPS had assigned both its crime intelligence and National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee (NICOC) to show SAPS all the hotspots. Yesterday, he had interacted with the Defence generals who were responsible for deployment so that the deployments were fast-tracked to the areas of need. There were resource constraints to get soldiers to certain areas. There was an instance where some soldiers had been transported by a mayor due to resource constraints. He rather wanted police resources to get soldiers to those areas.

The Chairperson asked SAPS what was happening in Phoenix Unit 3. The Committee was also concerned that police station phones were not being answered. Members sometimes called at ridiculous hours but they were parliamentarians and their constituents called them. She appreciated those who did respond to her late at night. She asked if Mr Shaik Emam's concerns had been covered.

Mr Shaik Emam said his concern was that the unrest was moving to residential areas.

SAPS response
Lt Gen Masemola replied about the ammunition consignment that went missing. The owner did not bother to open a case to report it. It was discovered by police when they arrested two individuals with a substantial amount of ammunition. When it was traced back to the owner he could not account for what had happened. The owner was now opening a case at one of the police stations south of Durban. He would be further interrogated. The police would need a team to track all of the ammunition stolen.

On Sunday at Nkandla there were gatherings and people came in numbers. There had been vehicles blocks on the N2. At some point a decision was made to allow the people to proceed to Nkandla and gather there. Three cases had been opened at Pietermaritzburg High Court which were under investigation. Those responsible would be called to account.

On the coordination of SAPS operations, it had activated the CPF through the national body, Business Against Crime. In case the unrest went into the rural areas, the police stations would activate their various structures such as neighbourhood watch and CPF so that the violence was nipped in the bud. In Phoenix it started off as looting which ended with the murder of some people whose car was burned. It later turned into a racial problem. Currently, the SANDF and SAPS were deployed in that area to quell whatever problems were there. Certain areas were not drivable. The situation would stabilise in time. SAPS was prioritising what was important and what it could do. Movement in certain communities might be limited. SAPS would attend to Phoenix as soon as it had sufficient forces. Currently, it was prioritising other areas. The CPF had been activated to assist SAPS.

Mr Shaik Emam said he heard the responses but he was not getting the one answer he wanted. There was an anticipation in the community that the unrest would move to residential areas. The community wanted an assurance as the soldiers and police were still not visible. The community wanted police to be deployed at these townships to ensure that the unrest did not go to the residential areas. SAPS was found wanting when the violence started and the same should not happen if the violence spread to residential areas. He appealed to SAPS to protect the residential areas from violence, looting and destruction.

The Chairperson asked SAPS to provide the number of SANDF soldiers on the ground. How soon would there be more SANDF soldiers on the ground? She was particularly concerned about the women and children caught in the unrest. Women were taken into custody and their children were left behind. In some instances women were arrested and the children were left crying.

Gen Sitole confirmed a SAPS instruction had gone both to General Masemola and the provincial commissioner to deploy officers to Phoenix where communities were crying out. An instruction was given to the FCS (Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences ) Unit to coordinate and work together with Social Development to give attention to women and children. These matters were to be escalated to NATJOINTS.

Lt Gen Masemola replied that the initial approval for SANDF soldiers was for 2 500. The numbers were then ramped up yesterday when the approval was extended to 25 000. SANDF confirmed yesterday that there were about 6 500 soldiers in total on the ground in all provinces. SANDF was building up to 25 000. In Limpopo, the SANDF assisted the police quite a lot where Mpumalanga residents wanted to loot in Limpopo. The joint forces were able to quell and disperse those groupings. There was no clear indication why so many cars were going to another province.

Deputy Minister comments
Deputy Minister Mathale said that interacting with the Portfolio Committee was enriching. The police always looked forward to engagement with the Committee. Working with the Committee, the police and security forces would be able to deal with the challenges confronting the country. These were unprecedented times in the history of the country. This was the first experience of something like this and it would be the last. This was not a small matter. It was a matter involving a former head of State and having to ensure that the law was respected by all. The police had to act in the manner in which they did. There had been a fallout which the police were dealing with. He was confident that under the leadership of the President, the Cabinet and together with all South Africans the country would be able to overcome the challenges before it. The future of this country was in the hands of all South Africans. Together, as a people, South Africa would overcome this challenge. South Africa will be brought back to the centre where it could talk of a growth trajectory which would address the ills the country had experienced because of the legacy of apartheid. In the disruptions, the communities that were at the centre of this unrest were mainly disadvantaged communities. They were particularly the most oppressed and exploited in the country. Clearly it was important that as these issues were dealt with, it should not only be about security concerns but the bread-and-butter issues also needed to be addressed.

Unemployment and poverty had made it possible for criminal elements to exploit the situation that people found themselves. If those issues were not addressed then South Africa would experience incidents of this kind. This should be a lesson to everybody that the economic inequalities need to be dealt with in South Africa as well as the apartheid legacy. All South Africans need to experience this better life. Nobody should exploit the living conditions and circumstances people found themselves in. South Africa would only be able to win if it addressed these legacies.

The police did what was possible but could have done more. The police looked forward to working together will all South Africans to defeat the enemy that was threatening democracy. He thanked the National Commissioner and his team for the work done so far. There was much more that was still to be done. The police needed to go back to the drawing board to ensure the country was made the pride of the continent and the world. South Africa could not be a laughing stock.

Committee oversight visit
The Chairperson said Members would have an opportunity to ask further questions during the 20-21 July oversight visit. She requested a SAPS brief on the 1.5 million rounds of ammunition stolen during the rampant looting. This was from a container at a depot in Mobeni, south of Durban. The bullets were understood to have been imported by SANDF. This could not be confirmed so the Committee wanted a report as it was a serious and dangerous matter.

Dr Irvin Kinnes, Committee Content Advisor, outlined the KZN / Gauteng oversight visit itinerary. With the KZN Premier and the Chairperson of the Standing Committee of the KZN Legislature, it would receive a briefing on 20 July by the Provincial Commissioner and National Commissioner. The Committee had also invited the Minister to be attend. After the briefing at the Provincial Commissioner’s Office, the Committee would be escorted by the police to some of the hotspot areas such as the attempted arson at the hospital in Westville. The Committee also wanted to go to Phoenix and interview people who started the self-defence units and CPFs and neighbourhood watches that were working with the police. The Committee would visit the damaged malls at Umlazi. The Committee would fly that evening to Johannesburg. On 21 July the Committee would receive a briefing from the Gauteng Provincial Commissioner. The Committee would visit areas in Johannesburg where the communities were mobilising to protect their malls such as Maponya Mall, hospitals and to hotspot areas where malls had been damaged. The House Chairperson and Chief Whip could be joining the Committee on the oversight visit.

The Chairperson thanked the SAPS delegation and for the generals and officers being available late at night to respond to questions from the Committee. She asked the Deputy Minister to pass on the Committee’s condolences for the tragic passing of General Mfazi, Deputy National Commissioner: Crime Detection. He would be sorely missed. She asked that General Sitole convey the Committee’s gratitude to the men and women in blue. They were frontline workers and the country's first line of defence. Despite the difficulties, the weaknesses and the challenges they were doing a sterling job. The recess was over for this Committee as it exercised its oversight over SAPS and over the Executive. The Chairperson Members for their valuable inputs that enriched the work of the security sector. SAPS was the Committee’s family and this was time to work together. Like all families there were difficulties but this was not a time for the Committee to be angry. The Committee had to give support, give direction and to lead as leaders from Parliament.

The meeting was adjourned.

Download as PDF

You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.

See detailed instructions for your browser here.

Share this page: