2017 Traditional Leadership Indaba resolutions: DTA progress & NHTL response

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Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs

22 April 2021
Chairperson: Ms F Muthambi (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

Video: Portfolio Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs

The Portfolio Committee met with the Department of Traditional Affairs as well as representatives from both National and Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders to continue the 8 April 2021 discussion on the progress in the implementation of the 2017 Traditional Leadership Indaba resolutions. The Committee had sent invitations to all the provincial traditional houses, with the intention to call the MECs of the provinces at a later stage to share with the Committee the support they are providing to traditional leaders in their provinces.

The National House of Traditional Leaders (NHTL) said that the biggest challenge is political will which is not allowing the traditional leadership sector to evolve and that the sector has not been given much space to evolve, to make mistakes and be able to correct those mistakes. There is a problem between traditional leadership and government, as there is no middle ground where both sectors can find each other and balance their authority.

In National Treasury and in political leadership in general, people are still uncomfortable with the traditional leadership sector, which leads to them stifling how it evolves. The assistance given to it is piecemeal as if the sector is there to either steal or to take something away from government. The traditional leaders that spoke noted another point of contention for the institution of traditional leaders was that since 2017 to date the Presidential Land Summit was not held. With the promise made by the President at the Opening of the National House of Traditional Leaders in March 2021, the Presidential Indaba will indeed be held this year and was a positive sign. The list of concerns arising from debates in the NHTL were enunciated

The Portfolio Committee Chairperson noted that the Committee understands that the implementation of many of the 2017 Indaba resolutions are the responsibility of other departments such as the Traditional Courts Bill. However, DTA has a duty to see to it that those departments fulfill their commitments to those resolutions. The Committee committed to holding meetings of a similar nature in July, October and January to assess the implementation progress of the 2017 Traditional Leadership Indaba resolutions. The Initiation Dialogue was important that the President had committed this Portfolio Committee to and would be done before the last term of the year. The Committee will visit the North West province from 3 to 7 May 2021 to engage with as many traditional leaders as they dealt with in their KwaZulu Natal visit.

Meeting report

Chairperson opening remarks
The Chairperson acknowledged apologies from the Deputy Minister who was attending a funeral. She welcomed the Department of Traditional Affairs and the National and Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders representatives. The meeting was a continuation of 8 April 2021 meeting. The Committee had sent invitations to all the provincial traditional houses, with the intention to call the MECs of the provinces at a later stage to share with the Committee the support they are providing to traditional leaders in their provinces. This is because it seems that some traditional leaders receive more support than others in their respective provinces and the expectation of the Committee is that certain Indaba resolutions should start showing in the plans of the Department to support traditional leadership. The recommendation submitted by the Portfolio Committee in the 2020 Budget Review and Recommendations Report instructed DTA to provide a report to the Committee on the finalisation and implementation of the program of action on the resolutions of the 2017 Traditional Leadership Indaba. The Department has not yet complied with this request. The Portfolio Committee understands that many of the issues resolved at the 2017 Indaba are a result of underlying dysfunctional departments. However, it is the Committee’s expectation that DTA has a duty to see to it that the underlying departments fulfill their commitments to the resolutions. DTA must strive to minimise the impression that it is shifting responsibilities away from itself.

Mr Abram Sithole, CEO: National House of Traditional Leaders, introduced the members of the National and Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders representatives as requested by the Chairperson.

The Chairperson said that a number of presentations were made at the 8 April meeting which left concerns amongst those in attendance and the Committee was unable to deal with all the matters raised. This meeting would be used to deal with those concerns. It would be important also to listen to the provincial perspective in this meeting before proceeding so that it could assist the Committee to hold accountable the MECs delegated the responsibility to address the matters of traditional leaders. It is important that the traditional leaders inform the Committee of the support that they have been receiving and where the support has been lacking so that the support could be improved. The National Department is responsible for policies and is the custodian of the legislations that governs traditional leadership’s operations. There are matters that since the Committee was elected in 2019, were highlighted as areas of priorities and in dealing with the indaba; this could assist the Committee in monitoring the progress of those priorities.

The Chairperson alerted the members of the North West provincial house and local houses that the Committee will visit the North West province from 3 to 7 May 2021 and will be looking to engage with as many traditional leaders as they dealt with in their KwaZulu Natal visit.

She then handed over to the National House of Traditional Leaders to comment on DTA presentation made in the previous meeting.

National House of Traditional leaders response
Inkosi Sipho Mahlangu, NHTL Chairperson, thanked the Committee for taking their matters seriously and for giving the institution an opportunity to speak. He believes that in this platform, they will be able to find solutions to problems that have besieged the sector since the birth of democracy in 1994. Now that the country has a democratic structure, there needs to be a balance between traditional leadership and those that are elected into power as the two structures are supposed to be responsible for the same communities. In most cases, having two different structures as leadership of a single community poses challenges and it needs very sober-minded people to be able to deal with the problems besieging the sector. Both elected and traditional representatives need to find a way to work closely together as they inherently have the same goals, which are to serve their communities and the greater community which is the Republic of South Africa.

He thinks the biggest challenge is the political will, which is what is not allowing the Traditional Leadership sector to evolve. The sector has not been given much space to evolve like any other sector, to make mistakes and be able to correct those mistakes. The National House of Traditional Leaders had to warn the President that they are aware that every time he addresses the House, he speaks but no one does anything after he has spoken. There is no Premier or Minister quoting what he has said to the sector, meaning that what he says is not policy or law and people just take it as the President’s speech. Whenever the President addresses the NHTL, he does not even refer to the speeches he made in previous years nor does he mention the progress made on the promises made in his previous speeches. This shows that there is a problem and that between traditional leadership and government, there is no middle ground where both sectors can find each other and balance their authority.

Their attitude in the meeting is that of trying to find each other with the government so that they can be able to work with their communities. The House has taken a different route as a sector, which is a route that seeks to turn them into developmental monarchs to develop their own communities. The House came up with an Invest Rural Programme of which they believe that it will change the lives of rural communities. It is important that their people should not see them as sellouts, and they should know that they have the same interests as them and they are in the leadership position to serve the people.  The National House of Traditional Leaders hopes that government will support them in those programmes and the Department created to support the House should take the programmes seriously because if that happens, they will change the lives of rural communities and bring dignity to them. The resolutions taken at the 2017 Indaba are supposed to be taking us forward as a sector and this Department that is supposed to be supporting us is not properly supported by government to do its work. In National Treasury and in political leadership in general, people are still uncomfortable with the sector, which leads to them stifling how it evolves. The assistance that is given is a piecemeal approach as if the sector is there to either steal or to take away something from government.

The Chairperson asked the NHTL CEO to provide a template of the commitments and directives that President Ramaphosa gave in his 2019 to 2021 Opening Addresses to the NHTL to check if there has been any progress in what the President had said needed to happen. This Committee held a Traditional Indaba on 26 and 27 November 2019 with DTA and NHTL which identified key issues DTA needed to follow up. She asked DTA to provide an overview of those so that those who were not there could get a clear view.

DTA Progress Report on 2017 Indaba Resolutions implementation
Mr Jacob Mashishi, DTA Executive Manager: Office of Director-General, said the Traditional Leaders Indaba with Government from 29 May to 22 June 2017 resolved matters of 1) land ownership, tenure rights and economic development; 2) nation-building and social cohesion; 3) institutional capacity and support; and 4) constitutional and legislative mandate. He provided a detailed progress report on the resolutions of these four matters (see document).

NHTL response
Mr Abram Sithole, NHTL CEO, said that the DTA presentation had covered most of the NHTL concerns but the only other concern for the institution of traditional leaders was that since 2017 to date the Presidential Land Summit was not held, which was the point of contention. With the promise made by the President at the Opening of the NHTL in March 2021, the Presidential Indaba will indeed be held this year and that is a positive sign to the institution of Traditional Leaders.  On communal land, during the Indaba, a decision was taken that the land already in the possession of traditional councils ought to be registered in the name of the traditional council. The traditional council is a structure that represents its community under a particular traditional leader. The Invest Rural Programme emanates from the 2017 Indaba. At that stage, traditional leaders assumed that they now had land and then came up with the investment programme which started in 2017 and evolved until it was launched this year. It is a programme that has been well thought of and that addresses a number of challenges in the rural areas coupled with the developmental monarch. If the institution of traditional leadership becomes developmental monarchs, it will talk nothing else but development and ensure that communities under traditional leadership do get the particular development that they need, meaning that the influx from rural areas to urban areas will not be seen as it is happening now. Development will take place even in small ways such as the provision of free wi-fi in rural communities. Imbizos were held in 2018 and 2019 and all were stressing the importance of the implementation of the 2017 Indaba Resolutions.

Discussion
Mr K Ceza (EFF) said that the Traditional Leadership House being treated at a level of the least importance by the President is problematic because we are all from traditional communities. This may not be a matter of where we live now, but we all in some way or another come from traditional communities. The guidance and advice from traditional leaders have to be taken very seriously by government. He does not think that government understands the extent to which the traditional leadership institution in South Africa is still important. At some point they need to let go of that attitude and start treating traditional leaders as serious leaders of the country, and in the same way as religious leaders are treated with dignity.

Our culture is embedded in the traditional communities and our traditional leaders because we are on an African continent and we should behave like that. It is important that traditional leaders are respected as they hold our history as Africans, especially in terms of land and where they owned the land. The country will have a serious problem going forward if government does not speak to the development of the customary law, especially about the participation of women and the protection of their property rights. Women’s property rights have been protected by the Constitution and yet women continue to face obstacles both socially and legally in accessing and using property. There are serious consequences to this dispossession of land that women traditionally experience as a result of customary law. Women in rural areas rely on access to land to perform subsistence farming to produce food and provide for their children and families. Access to land and the security of rights to land for women are critical factors for combatting poverty.

The promotion of public awareness about the changes in the law is also vitally important. He asked for the strategies and mechanisms available in rural communities to ensure that the public is aware about the constitutional changes to the rights of women and the LGBTQIA+ community. There is a historical stigmatisation that women belong to the kitchen and that the LGBTQIA+ community cannot exist amongst the people.

The other issue is the lack of investment in economic activities in rural areas. This has led to the influx into urban areas because the ruling party just decided that post 1994 they were going take an already established economy and build on it, but never built anything. They just recycled and are not innovative in developing the rural areas to discourage the deliberate migration of people that categorises the people as perpetual workers instead of producers. The Constitutional Court has provided laws that protect women, children and the LGBTQIA+ community from discrimination, and from being denied rights to own land and property. Those are progressive laws that could help the country going forward in the development of the customary law. The other worrisome factor is Section 81 of the Municipal Structures Act, which requires each MEC to issue a Gazette on the which regulates the participation of traditional leaders in municipal councils. Not all MECs have done this, and the Committee needs to see what COGTA will do now that some traditional leaders have rejected the reduction in their participation in municipal councils.

Ms P Xaba-Ntshaba (ANC) said that as much as the Committee is defending the House of Traditional Leaders and their land, she has a problem that when the Ingonyama Trust Land was attacked, the NHTL did not say anything. Her observation was that the members of the Traditional House are not even defending each other. She asked why they were quiet when the Ingonyama Trust Land was attacked.

The Chairperson said that the critical issue from the DTA progress report is that DTA is still saying that it is going to work with the provinces and consult other departments including DPME and DALRRD, and the NHTL. She was concerned that without a timeframe determining when this will be done, it will continue not to happen and will continue to be a problem. This was introduced after the 2017 Indaba and yet it appears in 2021 that DTA still plans to work with provinces. She asked about the work that DTA has done with the provinces thus far since 2017. On the agrarian revolution matter, she asked what DTA meant by saying that the programme did not work well. She wanted to hear the challenges and weaknesses of the programme. On the food and input vouchers provided by the House of Traditional Leaders from the Solidarity Fund which small-scale farm owners and households were to benefit from, she asked for the impact of this and if the vouchers did in fact reach the numbers of people who were meant to benefit from them. She asked about the rollout plan in place to ensure these people do receive the vouchers in the case not all had received them.

She asked when exactly did DTA sign a Memorandum of Understanding with DALRRD and when and how the MoU assisted the traditional leaders according to its mandate. She asked if there is any evidence of work done as a consequence of signing the MoU.

On the Invest Rural Programme which is supposedly going to be incorporated into the District Development Model (DDM), she asked if the piloted municipalities are to be incorporated in the Invest Rural Programme as municipalities are in the process of finalising their budget plans. If one looks at what municipalities do, there is no focus on traditional leadership in most of them. Their focus is on providing services. She asked if DTA have ever done a need analysis to check if the aspirations of traditional leaders are taken into consideration within municipalities when the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) are made. There are instances where the councillors do not talk to the traditional leadership of the municipality, and even during housing projects, some traditional leaders only find out at a later stage.

On nation building, she noted the Municipal Structures Amendment Bill, although passed by Parliament, has not been signed by the President yet. She asked DTA to clarify how this will assist them if it is not signed by the President. She asked for an input from DTA on participation because the reality is that some MECs choose to have fewer traditional leaders represented and others are not represented. In November 2019 DTA committed to dealing with the harmonisation of relations between traditional leadership and government. They were on record saying that they had initiated the development of regulations on section 81 of the Municipal Structures Act, consulting with provinces on the draft. She asked for the status of the draft regulations. She asked if the draft will even see the daylight because DTA said the draft is addressed and covered in the Traditional and Khoi-San Leadership Act (TKLA). She has a different view – these regulations still remain a necessity because traditional leaders attend council meetings as spectators as they do not have the right to speak or participate.

The Chairperson noted that the DTA had said that it had developed a Cooperative Governance Model for Traditional Leadership, which is not included in the progress report. They said that the model emphasised the participation of traditional leadership in governance structures across the three spheres in a way of creating a harmonised relationship between the two. She still needs to see that model, as she had not seen it despite the Committee’s requests to receive it. In 2019, DTA said it was implementing guidelines for the participation of traditional leadership in the IDP process and she also has not seen these guidelines. The DTA said that the guidelines were about how traditional leadership can play their role in the IDP process but the Chairperson did not see it happening. She wanted a response from DTA.

On the Provincial Land Summits promised to the traditional leaders in 2017 which would have taken place prior to the National Land Summit, which the President also committed to when he opened the House this year, she asked DTA to coordinate and make sure that these summits happen in the provinces. She did not understand why it has to take four years in order to convene a land summit and asked DTA to clarify that matter. She asked if the Department has made any plans to ensure that the provinces hold their own in these summits, as the president has committed that the Summit will happen this year. She also asked the envisaged timelines for convening the Summits and emphasised that they do not want to leave the meeting without knowing the timelines. She also asked the role that will be played by the department in the Summits.

At the 23 February 2021 meeting there was robust discussion on the agricultural input vouchers and the main concern was that the R2000 allocated per voucher was ridiculous in the context of small-scale farmers. She asked if DTA has reflected on this concern, including if it is possible to review that amount. She asked DTA to provide a concrete example of one resolution from the Traditional Leadership 2017 Indaba that has been implemented fully and successfully.

DTA response
Mr Mashwahle Diphofa, DTA Director-General, said a key item in the progress report is movement has been reported on legislation within the competence of DTA. Of course, there have been significant delays in the legislative process outside the control of DTA. That challenge has remained and the frustration the institution of traditional leadership has experienced has impacted also on DTA’s own work. Legislation not under the authority of this Department, such as the Traditional Courts Bill, what could best be done was for DTA to facilitate engagements that could take that process forward. Former Minister Mkhize organised such an engagement between the Justice Portfolio Committee and the NHTL and CONTRALESA where some options were explored.  The DTA team had a meeting with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, where DTA asked what interim measures can be used in the absence of the Traditional Courts Bill, to ensure that the functioning of traditional courts is not frustrated. They came to him with proposals that they should use the section in the Black Administration Act 38 of 1927, especially as many sections of that Act were used previously for delegating powers to traditional leaders to preside over disputes in traditional courts – but there were fundamental questions of constitutionality there.

The guidelines were developed on IDP participation, participation in the DDM and so on, but ultimately they are instruments that can be taken forward in those partnerships. There is nothing that says when there are challenges about a council involving a traditional leader in the IDP process. This cannot be resolved by guidelines, and it remains frustrating for DTA. If there is a problem of political will to work together between traditional leaders and municipal leaders, there needs to be a way in which government and traditional leaders can share ideas on how they can support each other.

On Section 81, DTA would share the copy with the Committee because the TKLA amends four paragraphs of section 81 in the Municipal Structures Act. If you look at the Municipal Structures Act as it is now, section 81 is much longer.

The current process now with the Inter-Ministerial Committee (IMC) on Land Reform, chaired by Deputy President, is it has packaged all these land related concerns in preparation towards dealing with them at the land summit.

Ms Thandaza Shandu, DTA Deputy Director-General: Institutional Support and Coordination, replied that for the Agrarian Revolution Programme, in the 2018/19, 14 sites were piloted in the Eastern Cape, KZN, North West and Mpumalanga. The amount allocated was around R100 million and the funding came from the Community Work Programme (CWP). In response to the Chairperson asking for the names of the 14 sites, Ms Shandu named the 14 pilot sites in each of the provinces and the kinds of projects that were piloted.

On lessons learnt from the Agrarian Revolution Programme, there were challenges as the programme was done through implementing agents and money was transferred to the implementing agents to assist the 14 pilot sites with implementation of those projects. Both the Department of Cooperative Governance (DCOG) and DTA had to review this approach and right now the approach is that of cooperatives development. DTA has worked with DCOG to move into that process and they are involving other departments such as the Department of Small Business Development that will also assist when it comes to training and capacitating the cooperatives for the implementation of their projects.

An MoU was signed at the beginning of March 2021 between the Department of Agriculture and DTA on roles and responsibilities. The implementation plan is being developed and there will be a structure established comprising of officials from the two National Departments and other relevant departments to ensure sustainability in the implementation of the agricultural projects.

The Chairperson said that Traditional Leadership was not mentioned in the list that Ms Shandu provided. The other concern is that at the time of the Agrarian Revolution Programme, the Mpumalanga project can be attested to but the rest of the projects no one can attest to. She asked who identified these projects and about the success stories of these projects. She asked the value of the Sunflower Project in Moloto and its success story if indeed there was a success. If the Programme was a failure, she wanted an explanation of how the projects failed, as they were allocated a R100 million budget.

Ms Shandu replied that the current House of Traditional Leaders is aware of the processes undertaken because the Agrarian Revolution started in 2018, during the era of former COGTA Minister Mkhize. On the identification of projects, there was a process where traditional leaders were requested to submit projects they would like to have in their traditional communities. As DTA was coordinating, all the projects received were then discussed with CWP because it had criteria it used in its allocation of a budget to those projects. On the project successes or failures, CWP as the funder of the projects worked closely with the implementing agents. She asked the Chairperson to allow DTA to communicate with CWP to assist in providing a progress report on the projects for the Committee. Those projects are currently ongoing and DTA is working closely with CWP to ensure they are sustainable.

The Chairperson asked if that is not a contradiction as DTA pointed out the lessons learnt from the pilot projects and yet they are saying the pilot projects are succeeding and are in progress.

Ms Shandu replied that when the programme was reviewed, DTA was working alongside DCOG in looking at what the challenges were, hence the review of the programme and the site visits. Some of the projects are there as they were visited in the past year in order to engage with the traditional leaders to identify outstanding issues which were addressed by DCOG.

The Chairperson asked who is responsible for the land summits.

Ms Shandu replied that the land summits could not take place before because there needed to be consultation with the traditional leaders on the recommendation of the Presidential Advisory Panel on Land Reform and Agriculture. The recommendations had to be communicated to traditional leaders. One of the recommendations it has to engage traditional leaders on was the need for studies to be undertaken to various countries to see what can be learnt from those countries so that when they put together a communal land policy, that has been attended to. This matter was also elevated to the level of the IMC, and at the IMC, it was resolved that for these land summits, the Department of Agriculture would have to be the lead department, supported by DTA, so that they can coordinate traditional leaders on the ground.

It was mentioned in DTA presentation that those trips have been undertaken and currently both the Deputy Ministers of Agriculture and DTA are consulting with the traditional leaders. The first consultation was last week with the NHTL and they are still continuing with consultations with CONTRALESA as well as the National Khoi-San Council (NKC) after which they will have to move through the provinces to ensure that those summits and consultation sessions take place. DTA, together with the Department of Agriculture, is working on a plan to roll out that process. The national summit is scheduled to take place around September, and this is going to give officials time to put together the inputs solicited from the provincial engagements to inform the summit.

The Chairperson asked what DTA can showcase and say they have done successfully as a department about the 2017 Indaba Resolutions.

Ms Shandu replied that it had been mentioned that DTA has had some challenges with the resolutions because some of the things that need to be followed up are not entirely DTA's responsibility so it has to engage the relevant government department. DTA has written letters to the various departments highlighting the concerns that have been raised. This is work in progress for some of the resolutions because most may not necessarily fall within DTA’s mandate. DTA is doing the best it can to ensure it monitors and makes follow-ups on those resolutions. It may not be successful now but the land summit is being addressed at the moment, which is one of the critical areas that was raised.

The Chairperson said that the Committee understands that some of the issues resolved at the Indaba are the responsibility of the other departments, however as a lead department, this is an Indaba that involves civil society, government, President, Deputy President and DTA has a responsibility to ensure that these other stakeholders fulfill their responsibility to the resolutions. DTA is making an unacceptable excuse by diverting responsibility to the other departments, as it is its duty to ensure the work is done. If government makes a commitment to something, DTA needs to ensure that those commitments are met, unless they do not take the institution of traditional leadership seriously. She asked if DTA had ever sat down and set their short, medium and long-term goals for the 2017 Indaba resolutions. The DTA presentation highlighted the same things that it reported in November 2019. From her point of view, there has not been any progress in the implementation of the Resolutions. It was a pity that the Deputy Minister was not in the meeting because this is a matter that needs to be elevated.

Ms Reshoketswe Mogaladi, DTA Deputy Director-General: Research Policy and Legislation, explained that the DTA progress report was referring to Schedule 3 of the Khoi-San Leadership Act (TKLA) and not the Municipal Structures Amendment Bill. It replaced section 81 in the current MSA. DTA has emailed the updated Municipal Structures Act to the Portfolio Committee.

The Chairperson replied that if it is the new MSA, then it is not enacted yet as the President has not signed it off.

Ms Mogaladi said that the Chairperson was incorrect. The amendment to Section 81 of the MSA was not done through the MSA Bill just passed by Parliament but was done through the Traditional and Khoi-San Leadership Act (TKLA). The TKLA commenced on 1 April 2021 and it automatically replaced Section 81 in the MSA. She referred them to Item 7(1) of Schedule 3 of the TKLA and read it aloud.

Schedule 3 shows all the Acts that the new TKLA immediately amended and Schedule 4 shows the Acts it repealed. According to the DTA 2019/20 Annual Performance Plan (APP), the draft Section 81 regulations were developed and signed off by the Minister and were approved for consultation in March 2020. The TKLA was enacted by the President in November 2019. However, as the regulations were developed for the Framework Act which was repealed by Schedule 4 of the TKLA, it was not plausible because TKLA was already enacted. DTA could not continue with the regulations and had to wait for the commencement date to be proclaimed by the President. When the TKLA commenced, it came with the amended section 81 of the MSA.

DTA has not done research on the challenges put forward by traditional leaders about their participation in municipal councils. However, DTA has a Traditional Affairs Research Agenda which it reviews on an annual basis. It will take the recommendations of the Committee Chairperson into serious consideration to understand the concerns raised by the traditional leaders and include them in the APP to assess and evaluate them and come up with solutions to those challenges.

NHTL response
Inkosikazi Nobhongo Ngonyama, NHTL Member, said that most of their concerns had not been responded to. She is currently in her fourth year as a traditional leader as she took over from her deceased husband and has had ample time to grasp what is happening and see the processes and procedures in how things are done in the National House. During her time as a NHTL Member, they have never had an engagement with the Portfolio Committee in the manner such as in this meeting and she thanked the Committee. Some issues have been sugarcoated for a while and some statements were incorrect in some presentations that were made. It was requested in a previous meeting that the presentations should be shared before the meeting so that it does not seem as if people are ridiculing each other in front of the Portfolio Committee.

On the Agrarian Revolution Programme, they had a meeting with former Minister Mkhize on 6 July 2018 where Royal leaders from the provinces were present. The reason for that meeting was on the Ingonyama Trust that made KZN not see eye to eye with government. Traditional leaders mentioned their stance proudly, standing against the repeal of the Ingonyama Trust. It was at this same meeting that the Agrarian Revolution was introduced, and the royal leaders were told to bring the land, and they did so and committed the land and were told that the programme would start. In the Eastern Cape, she engaged with CWP and submitted everything that was required. The implementing agent at that time was Thembalethu Development. When she made a follow up on why there is no implementation in her traditional authority, she did not want to disclose the internal issues of their organisation because they take their instructions from national DCOG. She was then sent to speak to the manager, who told her that they were instructed to remove her traditional authority and have the one of Inkosi Phathekile Holomisa. She concluded that they are in an Animal Farm situation, where some animals are more important than others, and unfortunately, she was not one of those animals. She is still aggrieved by that decision today, as she does not know who made the decision.

On the crop production project in Mount Ayliff, during the presentation she had phoned the Royal leader responsible, Inkosikazi Nonyaniso Fikeni, who serves with her at the Eastern Cape Provincial House. She requested that the value for money be scrutinised for each projects. The CWP project was R100 million but each project should be price tagged. The crop production project is on 14 hectares of land and the fencing was supplied. According to Inkosikazi Fikeni, it was not galvanised and the fencing, within a space of about three months, was blown by the wind because of the quality of the materials supplied and it has not been fixed to date. They brought the seedlings and fertilisers and the generics that have never worked to date. If there was proper monitoring and evaluation, there would not have been such stories. Government was supposed to tell the traditional leaders about the projects to be implemented and ask them to work with them to ensure that the service providers did their work.

Break

Inkosikazi Ngonyama continued that in the Minister's 2019/20 Budget Speech, the amount allocated for CWP was R3.879 billion in comparison to the R100 million that Ms Shandu referred to. There are monies in South Africa but the way they are utilised is not beneficial to the people of the country. The CWP is a programme that was started in 2009, and the traditional leaders were only informed that they need to be a part of it in 2019. The lesson learnt is that traditional leaders need to monitor the extent to which these CWP projects are being implemented to the standard they are supposed to be. When it comes to inequality, traditional leaders are totally treated differently. The projects that are happening in Mpumalanga, Limpopo and the North West are never even considered in the Eastern Cape and KZN. The problem with this is that there is no political will in these provinces to work with traditional leaders, and that can only be addressed by the Ministerial Handbook, as it applies to everyone. If the Ministerial Handbook is finalised and adopted, the cries of the Eastern Cape and KZN royal leaders will end.

The TKLA is clear that within two years of the Act's commencement, the reconstitution of the traditional authorities should happen, and it has to be aligned with the term of the House. The current term of the House ends in 2022, therefore as we speak there should have been progress in starting the process. If we do not pull up our socks both as the House and management in implementing this Act, we will be found wanting. In 2020, the President in his Opening Address said that he has signed the Act and added that there should be a discussion of the draft regulations at this point so that when the Act is enacted, they are not found wanting. The regulations are the “how” part of the Act, as they stipulate how things should or should not be done. She asked if one can really say an Act is implemented if there are no regulations.

Inkosikazi Ngonyama said that the Solidarity Fund chairperson is very passionate about rural communities. She became a cushion of comfort for the institution because on two consecutive occasions, she allocated funding not only to the National House, but also to all the provinces. This means that there are people who still look at this institution as one that is going to help people and be of assistance to government in ensuring that the exodus from rural communities to urban areas is prevented by empowering and bringing resources to the rural areas.

The TKLA states that their responsibility is to promote the preservation of culture and customs. There is nothing that speaks to supporting development or service delivery and yet it is their language to develop their own rural communities, hence the launch of the Rural Invest Programme. It is because they want to develop rural communities. She requested that when there are budget meetings, traditional leaders should be allowed to be part of all discussions so that the programmes they are promoting and launching can be supported. She asked if the reconstitution of the royal traditional authorities has been costed.

Inkosi Benedict Gule, NHTL Member, said that his bone of contention resides with the TKLA. The Traditional Courts Bill needs to be enacted as is and politics should be taken out of this situation. Before the Land Act of 1913, traditional leaders played a pivotal role in the running of the land. It is imperative for politicians to consult with traditional leaders because all the problems we find ourselves facing today are a product of political interference. What needs to be done about the TKLA is that it needs to be represented properly.

On the DDM, they are still waiting for some of the workshops which have not been implemented, as they were told in September 2020 and nothing has been done by the KZN province.

On the municipal boundaries, they must not be left out by the Municipal Demarcation Board. A lot of academics and some leaders are saying that the traditional leaders are going to abuse people, which is not the idea. Culture needs to be preserved and there is a lot that needs to be discussed on morality and also gender-based violence. There needs to be education about the laws to the rural people who are uneducated, especially by COGTA, Land Affairs and Agriculture. These need to be communicated properly. There seems to be no systematic communication between departments, which is a serious problem.

Inkosi Benedict Gule said that Section 25 of the TKLA on Allocation of Roles needs to be scrutinised because most of this recognition has not been received and this is one of the challenges that is going to be tackled in the TKLA. Participation needs to be clearly defined and addressed. Traditional leaders should not be going to meetings merely to listen to politicians discussing land that they do not have. Traditional leaders are the custodians of the land and a lot needs to be consulted with them.

Inkosikazi Nomandla Mhlawuli, NHTL Deputy Chairperson, said that she had never had this type of meeting that includes all of them participating and talking with a Portfolio Committee and she expressed her appreciation for the platform. She keeps on asking herself what is the role of the department that deals with monitoring and evaluation as some of the resolutions taken are not implemented. As she understood it, when the President announces something, it becomes the law and she was starting to doubt that this is perhaps a different case for government departments.

On the municipal boundaries, she said that they have been raising the point that a traditional council cannot be divided into two wards because it causes confusion and causes competition amongst community members. When it comes to traditional leadership and the Ingonyama Trust land, traditional leaders are united and they try by all means not to lose what is already within the communities, but cannot give land back, while they are still waiting for the Ingonyama Trust land to be declared as theirs. Ingonyama Trust land belongs to the communities. They are not un-united on that issue, but they will not protest, as they have never protested for their benefits as traditional leaders. This is because they know that they use the right platforms to raise their issues.

On the pensions, she understands that one cannot receive a pension when no money has been deducted from one. She thought that DTA was going to assist the traditional leaders to have such discussions to see how they can deal with that.

The Solidarity Fund funding came to the traditional leaders at the right time when the communities were left alone due to lockdown. Some challenges with the vouchers were that some traditional leaders decided not to participate, including the Vhembe District in Limpopo, based on the decision taken by the court on the kingship issue. There was also a similar challenge in KZN where some traditional leaders decided not to participate. There are still outstanding vouchers that need to be redeemed. On the R2000 farming vouchers, there were challenges in some areas and the main challenge had to do with the service providers who are very far from the communities.

Inkosi Sidney Ndevu, NHTL Member, said that Amathole District does not have a Hadebe Traditional Council as Ms Shandu proclaimed and he asked for clarification.

On initiation, he requested that COGTA should establish a directorate or chief directorate to focus on the initiation challenges and insourcing initiation processes to reduce the high number of casualties at initiation schools. He also supported that the Ministerial Handbook must be implemented. Traditional leaders are forced to join the Government Employees Medical Scheme (GEMS) even though they are not government employees but public office bearers. There is no freedom of choice on the medical aid they are given.

Princess Gaboilelwe Moroka, NHTL Member, said that everything has been agreed upon, with commitments having been made since 1994, and most have not been achieved. She asked why the NHTL does not have a home or chambers, which she believes is very simple. She did not understand why they still have to fight for the status of the National House of Traditional Leaders. It needs to be acknowledged that the institution is being challenged.

DTA Director-General response
Mr Diphofa replied about the original model of the Agrarian Revolution Programme that it was to be a value chain where land is identified, and then certain departments would come and assist with items such as soil testing to advise on the kinds of crops that can be grown on that land. When there were blockages at that level, such as not making headway with the role players coming on board, an amount of R100 million was identified to pilot a few projects. Even the 14 projects Ms Shandu spoke about did not exhaust the entire R100 million. Due to the approach used where CWP became a partner in the pilot, the usual problems associated with the CWP model were inherited. In the implementation of the projects, one of the traditional leaders noted one of the challenges faced was the implementing agent would not deliver what has been asked for in some instances. There was also a weakness in sustainability in the project implementation. The remodeled version of the Agrarian Revolution Programme takes the value chain approach where it looks at all these challenges right at the beginning and states that there must be other role players that come into the picture.

Mr Diphofa replied that the Minister had taken up the matter of benefits with the Commission for Remuneration of Public Office Bearers whose term was ending. She had followed up with the new Remuneration Commission chairperson and shared the concerns of the traditional leaders about their benefits. The Remuneration Commission said that they are doing a comprehensive review of remuneration and benefits of public office bearers across the board but is doing this in chunks. They then established a task team between DTA and Remuneration Commission staff so that all the issues generated from engagements with the traditional leaders can be loaded into the process.

On the Traditional Courts Bill, he agreed with Inkosi Gule. The Black Administration Act was the empowering legislation for the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development to delegate to traditional leaders to preside over dispute resolution. However, there is a legislative gap because certain sections of that Act have been declared unconstitutional and some of the unpalatable language that was used in 1927 has been repealed. The hope was that the work on the Traditional Courts Bill would have moved with speed so that the gap is closed. Other stakeholders have raised concern about the Bill to the point where the former Minister had to convene an engagement between the Department of Justice and the Portfolio Committee on Justice to find a solution on the areas where there seemed to be disagreement on the Bill. One of those was about the opt-out clause as there was an argument among some that if one lives in a rural area, by virtue of living in an area under the jurisdiction of traditional leadership, does not mean that one should subject oneself to the traditional court. There was some breakthrough which led to the process being taken forward in Parliament.

On the costing of the reconstitution process, Mr Diphofa replied that following the February 2019 passing of the TKLA in Parliament, engagements with provincial counterparts began on the implications of reconstitution. Initial work was done by provinces but that work would be overtaken by events because the provinces said the Act is not coming into operation. DTA has said to the provinces it is time to go back to that work in tested datasets because now the Act is a reality. The risk of limited resources in provinces to be able to support the reconstitution processes is there. DTA sent its provincial counterparts a template which lists all the individual steps that must be undertaken to ensure that each province has a shared understanding of the steps that must be followed in the build-up to the reconstitution process.

Mr Diphofa agreed there are still gaps at the moment, especially the Chambers for the House of Traditional Leaders that is still not there and added that DTA have not been able to deal with that. The medical aid issue has been raised with the Remuneration Commission. On a Directorate that will focus specifically on customary initiation, DTA has raised this internally. It involves reviewing the DTA organisational structure and going through all the consultation processes that will require concurrence by the Minister of Public Service and Administration. The initial appointments as contract appointments will be happening during 2021/22.

The concerns raised in this meeting are also shared by DTA and many of the other relevant departments. When the Invest Rural Programme was raised, DTA said they might not necessarily have the financial resources to contribute to the initiative but wanted to identify those things that they can do as a department. One thing they will have to do that will not really cost DTA anything, is to ensure that the Invest Rural master plan is on agenda of relevant engagements. One of the commitments DTA made was that they will take the Invest Rural and convert the master plan into a document that can go through the Directors-General of the Economic Cluster so they have a full understanding of the of the Invest Rural master plan. Then they will be able to indicate based on the mandate of their respective departments, how they will establish interfaces with the Invest Rural master plan.

The Chairperson said that the Committee was told that the progress in the implementation of the DDM will be finalised by next month.

Mr Diphofa replied that they do not have any district that has a final plan for the DDM, and the process is ongoing but has not been concluded. They have officials assigned to the different provinces and when they go to discussions in those provinces, apart from anything else they would be doing there, they need to take the Invest Rural master plan and ensure that it is put on the table for the purposes of them being aware that this is what the traditional leaders are saying about improving the socio-economic conditions. DTA has also made a commitment to take it to their engagements with SALGA so that they can assist in ensuring this message flows down to their members in the municipalities.

The Chairperson referred Mr Diphofa to the Zoom chat where Inkosikazi Ngonyama wrote about the DDM discussion that the traditional leaders have not been allocated any role to play. The DDM is for urban areas and that rural areas are forgotten when it comes to the model.

The Chairperson said that the 2020 Budget Review and Recommendations Report (BRRR) instructed DTA to provide a report on the finalisation and implementation of the programme of action on the resolutions. The Deputy Minister had committed that this will be given to the Committee, but to date the report has not been provided. She asked if the report actually exists. She asked Mr Diphofa also to comment on the Handbook, as many of the traditional leaders spoke about it but he did not respond to the comments about the Handbook.

Mr Diphofa responded that he did not mean to create the impression that the traditional leaders have no role to play in the DDM because the DTA guidelines presented to the House are clear about the role of the National House of Traditional Leaders on the DDM. The guidelines identify the role that traditional leaders could play as people who are close to communities to ensure that the information they have about the needs of those communities fit into the planning process. There are particular stages in the process of rolling out the DDM especially in the area of mis-assessments. They also indicate that there is a very critical monitoring role traditional leaders would have of the implementation itself. Traditional leaders as leaders in those communities will be able to engage with people in that area about the challenges they are experiencing and so on.

Mr Mashishi’s presentation was drawing from DTA information on the programme of action for taking forward the 2017 Indaba resolutions. He will ensure that they update the Word version of the progress report and forward it to the Committee.

He was not ignoring the Handbook comments and the progress that was reported is how the Handbook itself had developed. The Handbook was developed and necessary consultations with provinces took place and it was decided that the funding implications would be included in the Handbook. The costed Handbook would be brought into the Budget Forum where the Finance MECs in the provinces together with their officials and the Minister of Finance and the COGTA MECs would go through the process together.

The Chairperson asked when the Handbook process started and if it is one of DTA’s priorities. She wanted a breakdown of the value chain from when the process started and how far it was now.

Mr Diphofa replied that he does not think that the Handbook process had started when he took office in 2018. What was on the table was the framework on tools of trade for traditional leaders which had been approved already and adopted. Ms Mogaladi could probably explain better as she was in office before him. He guaranteed to the Committee that the Handbook process is its priority.

The Chairperson asked the NHTL Deputy Chairperson to indicate when the Handbook process was started according to their knowledge.

Inkosikazi Mhlauli replied that the Handbook has been there for a while. She is unsure of the stage that it is at now but it has been there for a while. Members who came into office this term found us talking about this Handbook, which means that it has been there since the previous term.

The Chairperson said that she believes that the Handbook has been discussed for a very long time and she requested a timeframe for when it will be finalised.

Ms Mogaladi replied that the Handbook is indeed a priority of DTA. She also started in office in 2018, and in 2019 when she started with the Handbook, it was an APP target. She does not know if the Handbook was a priority before she was appointed to the position. She assured the traditional leaders that DTA really wants the Handbook to be finalised.

Inkosi Mahlangu said that he was getting worried when listening to some of the responses. In 2011 there was a Handbook that was ready for signature done by Mr Mpungose. He was unsure of the NHTL position Mr Mpungose held. Ms Mogaladi would have heard about the Handbook even before she came into her new position. He was worried that when new leadership comes with a new term, all the work done by the previous leaders is forgotten. DTA needs to treat them with respect when giving responses and not treat them like children as everyone knows that the Handbook has been discussed for a very long time.

The Chairperson agreed that they should be respected. When DTA cannot provide answers, they use the bureaucratic process to try and cover up and make excuses. DTA needs to simply admit it was found napping on the job instead of blaming the bureaucratic process. She asked Mr Sithole what he knows about the Handbook.

Mr Sithole replied that the first draft of Handbook referred to by Inkosi Mahlangu was developed by the NHTL in September 2010 by Mr Mpungose who was Secretary to the House at the time.

Further questions
The Chairperson asked the Committee and NHTL if there were further questions.

Inkosikazi Mhlauli asked if what is said by the President holds power in the government departments as the President has made many statements and promises but nothing has changed.

The Chairperson remarked that from her own personal experience, whatever the President commits to in the country is the responsibility of the relevant ministry, in particular, the bureaucracy to ensure that it becomes policy. She had asked Mr Sithole to revisit the promises made by the President to the House of Traditional Leaders since 2019 to see what had and had not been delivered. She asked Mr Sithole to provide that feedback.

NHTL response
Mr Sithole stated the issues that came out in the President’s speeches and in the debates:
- The biggest issue, is the Presidential Land Summit that was requested by traditional leaders.This has not happened and is one of the 2017 Indaba resolutions.
- The second one is water rights. There are people who get land but do not get the water rights of the land, which makes it difficult for them to farm the land.
- The amendment of Chapter 7 and 12 of the Constitution to guarantee the powers of traditional leaders in the Constitution as opposed to in the TKLA.
- There is rural economic development with specific emphasis on mining and with specific reference to the example of Xolobeni where the people at some stage had very serious concerns about mines going there without giving the necessary social labour plans and the necessary development to communities. This is an issue which the Ministry of Minerals and Energy ought to have addressed. The NHTL Members said that the debate they normally have with the President is not helping as the President comes only with the Minister responsible and other Ministers do not accompany the President when coming to deliver a speech in the debate.The recommendation was that a dialogue instead of a debate is required. This year, the President said that there needs to be at least two days of dialogue. The NHTL administration is in the process of conceptualising that kind of dialogue and once that is done, they will consult accordingly.
- The President indicated during the 2021 State of the Nation Address (SONA) that the COGTA Portfolio Committee will organise a dialogue on initiation. Traditional leaders are hoping that the dialogue will still happen either before the winter initiation season or at least before the summer initiation season.
- There is the Agrarian Revolution Programme which DTA has started to come up with a remodeling process as the initial model had some challenges. The actual conceptualisation of the Agrarian Revolution was missed in its operationalisation and therefore, the remodeling of it was to take it back to its conceptualisation to understand the main intention of the Agrarian Revolution.
- There is ubuntu as the country has many cultures that are rich and some members of the society do not even understand the richness of those cultures such as Umemulo and Intonjane. The partnership that NHTL created with the Indoni Culture Programme in raising the boy and girl child is critical. We need to support this as it is something that the traditional leader structures are working with. Using these cultures and traditions through such programmes can help in the fight against gender-based violence.
- As part of rural development there is rural tourism, and the NHTL Chairperson said that they need to come up with a Rural Tourism Route which will cover all traditional leaders and turn traditional councils into a one-stop office where the traditional council will be able to be the repository of knowledge of that community to teach the history and culture of that community. This would start with the schools in the particular community and registering all this as a heritage site and registering with the tourism authority so that tourists can learn about the history of the community.
- The President spoke about people with albinism being killed. The National House is working on this and it should be stamped out using all the different cultures, including using an immense parliament.
- There is a need to empower women to stand on their own on an economic and social basis. Some of them lack confidence to stand up because of the historical background.
- There is a need for rural crime prevention to stop the surge of people who commit crimes in urban areas and then run to rural areas to hide from the wrath of the law. The Rural Crime Prevention was launched in Eastern Cape and Limpopo trying to find a way for the traditional institution to coordinate our communities to fight crime.
- Youth development is another concern to traditional leaders, as most young people are leaving rural areas going to urban areas and when they get there, they erect shacks, and their lives are not so good there because of overpopulation. The Invest Rural Programme was created to try and prevent the surge of rural to urban migration by helping the youth find opportunities to grow the economy in the rural areas where they belong. This is why an agreement with the Local Government Youth Development Forum was entered into. There are many youth development programmes that the National House is coming with that will empower young people to be self-sufficient. The first one is the 5 Hectares of Agricultural Land in traditional leader areas where young people can start to plough and work the soil and generate food and a portion of their harvest can be sold.

The Chairperson asked how the debates work in the National House of Traditional Leaders.

Mr Sithole replied that they create a report on all the problems emanating from the debate.

The Chairperson asked that Mr Sithole attach the President’s speeches to the written report the NHTL gives to the Committee, as it will assist them to engage further. At the beginning of the Sixth Term the Committee had committed to having meetings like this one on a quarterly basis, but COVID-19 affected the proceedings. There needs to be a similar meeting again in July and October so they can monitor what has and has not been provided by the relevant departments. She asked Mr Diphofa to clarify the envisaged timelines for the Presidential Land Summits.

DTA response
Mr Diphofa replied that the idea was that through the provincial summits they would create platforms where there will be more people brought on board for consultation, as many of those people would not be able to make it to the national consultation. It would also assist with the process of making sure that by the time the national summit takes place, there has already been a process of issue identification per province, which would inform what happens at the National Summit.The expectation is that the National Summit will happen by the end of September 2021 and all provincial summits will have been concluded before the National Summit.

The Chairperson asked for the guarantees and mechanisms DTA has in place to ensure that the provinces will have completed their summit reports by the time the National Summit by the end of September since it took them over a year to get reports on the progress of implementation of the TKLA. Who is responsible for convening the provincial summits and the envisaged timelines? She asked if the necessary preparations for the provincial summits have been done since the President’s speech.

Ms Shandu replied that they are working together with the Department of Agriculture and the three Deputy Ministers are involved in the process. They have regular meetings to update the Deputy Ministers on the process. They have consulted with NHTL and the next consultation will be with NKC and CONTRALESA next week, and it will be rolled out to provinces after that.There was a suggestion from the Deputy Ministers that there needs to be an engagement with the MECs of Agriculture together with the COGTA MECs so they understand what would be expected as they go out to provinces. The consultations will start in May, and it is envisaged that they will finish around June so that in July, the information received from the provinces is consolidated in preparation for the National Land Summit in September.This matter is of interest to the IMC, and it gets tabled on a monthly basis to advise the Deputy President on the progress in the planning processes.

The Chairperson asked when the provinces will hold their summits.

Ms Shandu replied that the dates will be finalised once there has been an engagement with the Agriculture and COGTA MECs that the two COGTA Deputy Ministers are spearheading. The exact provincial summit dates are not yet finalised but will take place between May and end of June.

Chairperson concluding remarks
The Chairperson said that a similar meeting to this one will happen again in July, October and January next year. This is the only way that they can get the issues raised in the meeting addressed and the 2017 Indaba Resolutions implemented. She is giving NHTL and DTA these dates in advance so that there would not be any clashes when the time comes. There are still those TKLA issues spoken about in the 8 April meeting, and some are still very concerning. She said that if they work together on this bigger platform, they will be able to troubleshoot the issues.

On the commitment the President made on behalf of the Portfolio Committee to organise a dialogue on initiation, the Committee received a disturbing report from the Eastern Cape and other interested stakeholders. The Chairperson said she was shocked and traumatised reading that report and looking at the number of deaths that happened in only one section of the province and not the whole country. There have been no follow-ups on some of these death and this warrants the need to deal with this as a matter of urgency although the Committee programme for the next term has been adopted. The dialogues on initiation need to be added to the Committee programme of the final term.

On opening initiation schools during lockdown, it was stated that whoever sends young men to initiation schools during lockdown would have to take responsibility for the casualties and deaths. Someone must take accountability. As part of the dialogues, there needs to be a discussion on how to balance culture and the health and safety of young men. This was also part of the 2017 Indaba resolutions. She pleaded with DTA that when the Committee directs them in the BRRR, it is a directive from the Committee, and it is to be complied with. She urged DTA to do its work. She does not like it when people use bureaucratic procedures as an excuse for not doing their work because even in bureaucratic procedures there are timelines. Traditional leaders are not the stepchild of DTA and the things they do on the DCOG side, they must also do in Traditional Affairs. The Chairperson thanked the National House of Traditional leaders for their presence and assured them that the Committee will continue to support them in raising their concerns and in ensuring that DTA fulfills its duties.

The meeting was adjourned.

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