Information Regulator vacancy: interviews

Meeting report

The Chairperson thanked members of the opposition for their words of comfort and support during the difficult time the ANC faced with the death of Mr Hishaam Mohamed who served as a member of this Committee and as Whip of the ANC Study Group on Justice and Correctional Services. He announced that Ms Jacqueline Mofokeng has been appointed as an ANC Whip and congratulated her on her appointment.

Ms Mofokeng thanked the ANC for the confidence shown in her and she looked forward to working with the Committee in the same spirit it always has.

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) congratulated Ms Mofokeng on her appointment. She asked if the security vetting of the interview candidates was complete and what the outcome was. She was concerned about interviewing people without knowing the outcome of the vetting. “We postponed these interviews especially for the vetting process”.

The Chairperson said the results of the vetting was received from the State Security Agency (SSA) the previous day and would be circulated to the Committee. The results indicate that there are no security concerns and the qualifications of the candidates have been verified. Candidates' credit records have also been verified. He was assured that all security checks were clear.

Adv Breytenbach said the results of the vetting should have been sent to Committee members when received so they could read through these documents. Interviews were postponed precisely for that purpose and she could not imagine why this was not received by Members yesterday. She asked why they were only interviewing four candidates and they had shortlisted more.

Mr S Swart (ACDP) asked if the interviews would be broadcast on a parliamentary digital platform given the sensitivity of the questions. Normally interviews are broadcast at some stage for public knowledge.

The Committee Secretariat explained that five candidates were shortlisted and one candidate withdrew due to personal responsibilities.

The Chairperson replied that the interviews would not be live streamed.

Ms Christine Silkstone, Committee Content Advisor, took the Committee through the proposed interview questions. There were 33 questions from which Members needed to choose.

Members chose the questions which they would be asking.

Interviews commenced thereafter –  refer to the audio for each candidate’s response to questions.

Candidate 1: Ms Alison Tilley
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and Members introduced themselves.

The Chairperson asked the candidate how she would convince the Committee that she would be able to step into the role as a part-time member of the Information Regulator. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about who she is, her values and experience.

Mr X Nqola (ANC) asked the candidate what her understanding was of a fit and proper individual.

He asked the candidate if she believed that the Information Regulator should be included in government discussions on the Digital Economy and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. If the candidate's answer is in the affirmative, she should explain why she believes this.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate if her interest lies with data protection, access to information or both.

Adv Breytenbach said that on 1 July 2020, the remaining sections of the Protection of Personal Information Act No 4 of 2013 (POPIA) became effective and there is a grace period of one year for responsible parties to become compliant. If appointed, she would join the Regulator at a time when the Regulator must shift its focus from capacitation to implementation. How would the candidate be able to contribute to this?

Mr R Dyantyi (ANC) asked the candidate what in her view are the key challenges and risks facing the Information Regulator which is an emerging but not yet established institution. She should refer to one or two risks and the mitigating strategies she would employ to deal with these risks.

Mr Dyantyi said the Regulator operates in an environment of a constrained budget and therefore has very few resources. However, there is so much to be done. This means more demand and less supply in the kind of tools and resources available. The COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated this. He asked the candidate to share the strategies she would introduce to bring about innovation and ensure that the Regulator successfully pursues its mandate in a constrained environment.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked the candidate to answer her question in plain language that people on the ground could understand. She asked her to explain why there is a need for the legislation to protect personal information.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what POPIA aims to do.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what "special personal information" is and why this is treated differently.

Mr S Swart (ACDP) said there have been a number of concerns about communication surveillance which links to the misuse of an individual's personal data. The candidate has touched on this already, but he wanted to know what more she thought could be done to prevent this and address it. Is there any legislation that could be put in place? If appointed, there may be capacity constraints beyond the candidate's control, such as law enforcement. What other mechanisms does the candidate think could be used to assist with this.

He asked if the candidate would agree that education of the general public is very important and if she thought this was a role she would be able to play, if appointed.

The spread of COVID-19 has generated numerous privacy and data protection concerns. He had a personal experience which was broadcast on national television stating he had tested positive for COVID-19, but he had not been tested yet. One response to curb the spread of COVID-19 is contact tracing where one identifies and monitors individuals that have come into contact with an infected person. There are data protection concerns about this. He asked the candidate's thoughts on this.

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked if the candidate believed that the commencement of certain sections of POPIA can create new economic opportunities for South Africa.

Ms Maseko-Jele said public awareness of the Information Regulator was critical. She asked the candidate how she would ensure that she reached all South Africans such as those outside of urban areas given that the candidate would be doing this part-time.

Ms Maseko-Jele said the candidate already mentioned local government. Next year South Africa would hold local government elections and a lot of personal data and digital campaigning will be used. This data must be processed lawfully. She asked the candidate's view on this.

What are the main threats or risks to the personal information of individuals?

Ms J Mofokeng (ANC) said the candidate indicated that a lot has taken place with data information. She asked the candidate how many credit bureaus are in South Africa and how many of them are of South African origin.

She asked if the candidate thought it was high time that South Africa had its own credit bureaus. People are paying these companies instead of ensuring that the money remains in the country. Does the candidate think a relationship should be established with the Department of Home Affairs?

She asked the candidate what she thought should happen after the Experian data breach incident where important personal information of citizens was obtained. Something should happen to prevent this in future.

The Chairperson noted the candidate mentioned there are two types of regimes: the American regime and the European regime. He asked what regime she thought was good and the problem with the other regime.

Mr W Horn (DA) said that in the candidate's introductory remarks she mentioned the necessary amendments to the Promotion of Access to Information Act (PAIA). What does the candidate think are the most pressing issues that need to be addressed given that the Act was drafted a while ago?

Mr Horn said the candidate spoke of the exploitation of personal data and the 2021 elections have been mentioned. He got the sense that the Information Regulator aims to police personal information during the election campaign. For example, if the DA took to the streets to do door-to-door canvassing. How would the DA protect the personal information that it already has and the information that it would source from voters during its engagements. He pointed out a difficulty which the candidate had briefly touched on which is that a more advanced level of personal information is being used increasingly during election campaigns. Does the candidate view the current Act sufficient in enabling the Information Regulator to deal with the more sophisticated harvesting of personal information such as individual's interests.

Mr Horn said, historically, political parties have wanted to talk to what it refers to as its audience. For example, Mr Swart on the Committee who is a member of a Christian Democratic Party. Preferably in campaigning, this party would want to talk to Christians. The same would apply to all political parties. When does one act in alignment with the law when making use of significant/large data that identifies its audience. More specifically, if this data is readily available. The candidate referred to Facebook previously and wanted to know where to draw the line.

Mr Horn asked the candidate if she found the interview questions fair. What is her view of the interview?

The Chairperson thanked the candidate and asked if there was anything she wanted to inform the Committee about which if revealed, may cast her in a bad light and affect the reputation of the institution.

The Chairperson said the outcome of the candidate's interview would be communicated to her soon.

Candidate 2: Prof Justine Limpitlaw
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and Members introduced themselves.

The Chairperson asked the candidate how she would convince the Committee that she would be able to step into the role as a part-time member of the Information Regulator. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about who she is, her values and experience.

Mr Nqola asked the candidate what her understanding was of a fit and proper individual and what the key characteristics of such an individual would be.

He asked if she believed that the Information Regulator should be included in government discussions on the Digital Economy and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. If the candidate's answer is in the affirmative, she should explain why she believes this.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate if her interest lies with data protection, access to information or both and why.

Adv Breytenbach said that on 1 July 2020, the remaining sections of the Protection of Personal Information Act No 4 of 2013 (POPIA) became effective and there is a grace period of one year for responsible parties to become compliant. If appointed, she would join the Regulator at a time when the Regulator must shift its focus from capacitation to implementation. How would the candidate be able to contribute to this?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate what in her view are the key challenges and risks facing the Information Regulator which is an emerging but not yet established institution. She should refer to one or two risks and the mitigating strategies she would employ to deal with these risks.

Mr Dyantyi said the Regulator operates in an environment of a constrained budget and therefore has very few resources. However, there is so much to be done. This means more demand and less supply in the kind of tools and resources available. The COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated this. He asked the candidate to share the strategies she would introduce to bring about innovation and ensure that the Regulator successfully pursues its mandate in a constrained environment.

Mr Swart said there have been a number of concerns about communication surveillance which links to the misuse of an individual's personal data. The candidate has touched on this already, but he wanted to know what more she thought could be done to prevent this and address it. As legislators, we pass very good laws, but the implementation is the challenge. How would the candidate deal with this from a regulatory perspective, if appointed? Is there any legislation that could be put in place? If appointed, there may be capacity constraints beyond the candidate's control, such as law enforcement. What other mechanisms does the candidate think could be used to assist with this.

The spread of COVID-19 has generated numerous privacy and data protection concerns. He had a personal experience which was broadcast on national television stating he had tested positive for COVID-19, but he had not been tested yet. One response to curb the spread of COVID-19 is contact tracing where one identifies and monitors individuals that have come into contact with an infected person. There are data protection concerns about this. He asked the candidate's thoughts on this.

He asked the candidate to comment on how to deal with illegal surveillance.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked the candidate to answer her question in plain language that people on the ground could understand. She asked her to explain why there is a need for the legislation to protect personal information.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what POPIA aims to do.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what "special personal information" is and why this is treated differently.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked if the candidate believed that the commencement of certain sections of POPIA can create new economic opportunities for South Africa.

Ms Maseko-Jele said public awareness of the Information Regulator was critical. She asked the candidate how she would ensure that she reached all South Africans such as those outside of urban areas given that the candidate would be doing this part-time.

Ms Maseko-Jele said the candidate already mentioned local government. Next year South Africa would hold local government elections and a lot of personal data and digital campaigning will be used. This data must be processed lawfully. She asked the candidate's view on this.

What are the main threats or risks to the personal information of individuals?

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate how many credit bureaus are in South Africa and how many of them are of South African origin.

She asked if the candidate thought it was high time that South Africa had its own credit bureaus. People are paying these companies instead of ensuring that the money remains in the country. Does the candidate think a relationship should be established with the Department of Home Affairs?

She asked the candidate what she thought should happen after the Experian data breach incident where important personal information of citizens was obtained. The company received its information from Trans Union which is a British company. How can this be prevented in future?

Mr Horn said the candidate spoke about the disjuncture between the law and implementation. Currently, the regulatory powers for access to information still lie with the Human Rights Commission. When the Commission reports to Parliament in its Annual Reports, it presents a long list of governmental institutions which do not comply with making an annual report available. There seems to be a general unwillingness to properly produce this information. How should the Information Regulator, when it takes over that function, ensure better implementation?

Mr Horn said the candidate referred to big international corporations and mentioned Facebook, Amazon and Google and that these corporations seem to be above the law. If the candidate analyses POPIA, what does she think about elections and the outcome of elections. Does she think POPIA is a suitable vehicle to address broad scale, blanket-type, big harvesting of personal data or the type of things that people would want the internet to forget. Is additional legislation required to tackle the manipulation of behaviour through the use of big data?

The Chairperson asked if there was anything the candidate needed to disclose to the Committee that would cast her in a bad light or affect the reputation of the institution, if appointed.

He asked for the candidate's view was the interview and if she thought the questions were fair.

The Chairperson thanked the candidate and said the outcome would be communicated to her soon.

Ms Dolamo was scheduled to be interviewed next, but her interview was interrupted by poor connectivity.

Candidate 3: Professor Alison Gilwald
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and Members introduced themselves.

The Chairperson asked the candidate how she would convince the Committee that she would be able to step into the role as a part-time member of the Information Regulator. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about who she is, her values and experience.

Mr Nqola asked the candidate what her understanding was of a fit and proper individual.

He asked the candidate if she believed that the Information Regulator should be included in government discussions on the Digital Economy and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. If the candidate's answer is in the affirmative, she should explain why she believes this.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate if her interest lies with data protection, access to information or both.

Adv Breytenbach said that on 1 July 2020, the remaining sections of the Protection of Personal Information Act No 4 of 2013 (POPIA) became effective and there is a grace period of one year for responsible parties to become compliant. If appointed, she would join the Regulator at a time when the Regulator must shift its focus from capacitation to implementation. How would the candidate be able to contribute to this?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate what in her view are the key challenges and risks facing the Information Regulator which is an emerging but not yet established institution. She should refer to one or two risks and the mitigating strategies she would employ to deal with these risks.

Mr Dyantyi said the Regulator operates in an environment of a constrained budget and therefore has very few resources. However, there is so much to be done. This means more demand and less supply in the kind of tools and resources available. The COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated this. He asked the candidate to share the strategies she would introduce to bring about innovation and ensure that the Regulator successfully pursues its mandate in a constrained environment.

Mr Dyantyi said the candidate raised the theme of partnering with other institutions and asked if she thought partnerships could affect the independence of the Regulator.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked the candidate to answer her question in plain language that people on the ground could understand. She asked her to explain why there is a need for the legislation to protect personal information.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what POPIA aims to do.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen said she knew the candidate was very involved with work in Africa and asked her to explain what she thought were the challenges to access to information in South Africa.

Mr Swart said in the background the candidate provided to the Committee, she said she worked extensively with telecommunications. He wanted to touch on the aspect of Africa and internet usage. According to the International Telecommunications Union, people on the continent using internet has increased from 1% to 24.4% in 2018. At the same time, there is a concern about the disregard of personal data such as on social media networks, fake news and the growth of cyber crime. How would the candidate balance the protection of citizens from cyber crime and ensure their internet freedoms. This is a challenge, so what role does the candidate think the Regulator can play in maintaining this balance.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked what are the main threats or risks to the personal information of individuals?

Did the candidate believe that the commencement of certain sections of POPIA can create new economic opportunities for South Africa?

Ms Maseko-Jele said next year South Africa would hold local government elections and a lot of personal data and digital campaigning will be used. This data must be processed lawfully. She asked the candidate's view on this.

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate how many credit bureaus are in South Africa and how many of them are of South African origin.

She asked what the candidate thought about the Experien incident and if this made her think she needed to investigate who Experien and TransUnion are. The Information Regulator needs to come up with innovative ways to assist. These companies are from America, the UK and Africa. She asked if this would be something that would worry the candidate.

She asked if the candidate thought it was high time that South Africa had its own credit bureaus.

Mr Horn said that the candidate responded to the written questionnaire that for the annual reports that public entities had to submit, there is very little information available. The candidate also mentioned that the Human Rights Commission seems to have given up and this function seems to be transferred to the Information Regulator. She also mentioned that POPIA gives stronger enforcement powers and review mechanisms to the Regulator. What does the candidate think should be done differently to ensure that institutions properly embrace the Promotion of Access to Information Act?

Mr Horn said the candidate had referred to the risks to privacy and the impact that data collection might have on the 2021 local government elections. There are global companies that specialise in this and there is now a problem which the candidate referred in using this to manipulate behaviour. Does the candidate think POPIA and South Africa’s current legislative framework is strong enough to address this risk and, if not, how does the candidate see the way forward unfolding?

The Chairperson asked the candidate if she had anything to disclose to the Committee which would cast her in a bad light and affect the reputation of the institution.

He asked if the candidate found the interview process to be fair.

The Chairperson thanked the candidate and said that the outcome would be communicated to her soon.

Candidate 4: Ms Katlego Dolamo
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and Members introduced themselves.

The Chairperson asked the candidate how she would convince the Committee that she would be able to step into the role as a part-time member of the Information Regulator. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about who she is, her values and experience.

Mr Nqola asked the candidate what her understanding was of a fit and proper individual. Does the candidate think she is a fit and proper individual?

Mr Nqola said the South African Human Rights Commission has expressed a concern that the right to access to information is not fully or consistently realised. The Information Regulator is in the process of taking over the SAHRC functions. In the candidate's view, how can the Information Regulator ensure that there is improved compliance with PAIA legislation?

He asked the candidate if she believed that the Information Regulator should be included in government discussions on the Digital Economy and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. If the candidate's answer is in the affirmative, she should explain why she believes this.

Adv Breytenbach asked the candidate if her interest lies with data protection, access to information or both.

Adv Breytenbach said that on 1 July 2020, the remaining sections of the Protection of Personal Information Act No 4 of 2013 (POPIA) became effective and there is a grace period of one year for responsible parties to become compliant. If appointed, she would join the Regulator at a time when the Regulator must shift its focus from capacitation to implementation. How would the candidate be able to contribute to this?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate if she had done research on the Information Regulator in preparing for the interview.

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate what in her view are the key challenges and risks facing the Information Regulator which is an emerging but not yet established institution. She should refer to one or two risks and the mitigating strategies she would employ to deal with these risks.

Mr Dyantyi said the Regulator operates in an environment of a constrained budget and therefore has very few resources. However, there is so much to be done. This means more demand and less supply in the kind of tools and resources available. The COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated this. He asked the candidate to share the strategies she would introduce to bring about innovation and ensure that the Regulator successfully pursues its mandate in a constrained environment.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked the candidate to answer her question in plain language that people on the ground could understand. She asked her to explain why there is a need for legislation to protect personal information.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked what she thought were the challenges to access to information in South Africa.

Mr Swart said the spread of COVID-19 has generated numerous privacy and data protection concerns. He had a personal experience which was broadcast on national television stating he had tested positive for COVID-19, but he had not been tested yet. One response to curb the spread of COVID-19 is contact tracing where one identifies and monitors individuals that have come into contact with an infected person. There are data protection concerns about this. He asked the candidate's thoughts on this.

POPIA is an exceptionally well-crafted Act, but most people in South Africa do not know about their rights. Does the candidate agree with this, and how would she broaden the knowledge of South Africans about the need to protect these rights, if appointed?

Ms Maseko-Jele said public awareness of the Information Regulator was critical. She asked the candidate how she would ensure that she reached all South Africans such as those outside of urban areas given that the candidate would be doing this part-time.

Ms Maseko-Jele said next year South Africa would hold local government elections and a lot of personal data and digital campaigning will be used. This data must be processed lawfully. She asked the candidate's view on this.

Ms Maseko-Jele asked if the candidate believed that the commencement of certain sections of POPIA can create new economic opportunities for South Africa.
 

Mr Horn referred to a statement made by the candidate about political parties and direct marketing. The way he understood the law was not that one had to opt in to receive direct marketing, but rather that one has the right to opt out. Whoever contacts one to embark on marketing must provide one with ample opportunity to opt out. The way he understood the candidate's answer was that she was advocating for a change in South Africa’s substantive law. If this is the case, could the candidate substantiate her answer.

A lot of focus has been placed on how political parties will have a duty to protect personal information which they have in their possession that has been sourced from individuals during campaigns. There is a bigger risk to the integrity of elections when one considers the involvement of global companies that harvest big data about consumer behaviour and attitudes and makes this available to whoever wants to manipulate election outcomes. Does the candidate see the Information Regulator playing a role here and is POPIA strong enough to deal with this? If not, what is the solution?

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate how many credit bureaus are in South Africa and how many of them are of South African origin.

She asked what the candidate thought about the Experien incident. The Information Regulator needs to come up with innovative ways to assist. How would the candidate advise the Information Regulator on what to do?

The Chairperson asked the candidate if she had anything to disclose to the Committee which would cast her in a bad light and affect the reputation of the institution.

He asked if the candidate found the interview process to be fair.

The Chairperson thanked the candidate and said that the outcome would be communicated soon.

Discussion
The Chairperson thanked all Members for their work, engagement and discipline. He asked for feedback on which candidate they thought performed best.

Mr Nqola said it was important to reflect that it was a fruitful set of interviews. The candidates came prepared and understood matters very well. He thought that Ms Katlego Dolamo did very well.

Ms Maseko-Jele said all candidates did very well despite it being evident that a candidate did not understand the question very well. All candidates did their best. She thought Ms Alison Tilley did well.

Ms Mofokeng said she would align with Ms Maseko-Jele as not all candidates could answer the question on TransUnion and credit bureaus, but Ms Alison Tilley was able to answer it. She had an idea, even if she did not have the numbers. Ms Dolamo did well, but she would be number two. Ms Tilley is number one.

Adv Breytenbach agreed with Ms Mofokeng that Ms Tilley was the best and next would be Ms Limpitlaw or Ms Gilwald. The wealth of experience these candidates brought is incredible.

Mr Horn agreed there were very strong candidates. In terms of a clear understanding of what needs to happen next at the Information Regulator and the ability in a practical way to illustrate the contribution the candidate would make was best done by Ms Tilley. She should be our preferred candidate.

Mr Swart said all candidates were excellent and agreed that Ms Tilley should be recommended. Going forward there would be vacancies next year, but for the present purposes, he thought Ms Tilley would be his preferred candidate.

Mr Nqola said he wanted to withdraw his previous statement and would like to support Ms Tilley as well.

Mr Dyantyi said he had not made a proper assessment of the current Members at the Information Regulator, but that he thought all four candidates interviewed should be placed at the Information Regulator as they would bring diversity to the team with their different strengths. He was impressed by all candidates, but agreed on Ms Tilley being the top candidate.

Mr Dyantyi raised a technical point. Mr Nqola did not ask one of his assigned questions to all four candidates – but only posed this question to Ms Dolamo. Procedurally, you should put this question to all candidates. 

The Chairperson said this should be kept in mind in future interviews as the Committee would be dealing with the South African Human Rights Commission soon. The Committee should think carefully whether five minutes is enough. The Committee does not need to apply itself to this today, but should think about this.

The Chairperson said the unanimous view is that Ms Alison Tilley should be the next Part-Time Member of the Information Regulator. This would be reported so that it can be adopted by the House.

He thanked the Research Unit and the Secretariat who had been praised by members of the public. This should be congratulated. The Research Unit has applied itself well and has contributed to the outcome of these interviews. South Africans should be honoured to have public representatives like them.

The Chairperson thanked Dr Twalo, Unit Manager: Committee Section, for all the hard work.

Committee Programme
There has been correspondence from the Department about the Zondo Commission expenditure. The Secretariat has shared this information with the Committee. There has also been a complaint from the Eastern Cape. The Committee should discuss an approach to this matter the following day.

Last minute changes have been made to the fourth term committee programme. The Minister would not be starting with a briefing given the changes made to the Cabinet Lekgotla for Wednesday and Thursday. We should not wait for the Minister's availability but instead begin with the entities ready to present. This is why the Committee will begin with the NPA.

Mr Horn alerted the Committee that DA members would not be present on the 30 October meeting on the Gender-Based Violence (GBV) legislation due to unavoidable party business. Mr Dyantyi said he would also not be present on this day as he would be at the Magistrates Commission. Ms Maseko-Jele said she would also not be present as she would be writing exams.

In closing, he said the committee programme referred to public hearings for each of the three Bills: Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Amendment Act A/B; Domestic Violence A/B  and Criminal and Related Matters A/B. There was a possibility that organisations may want to present submissions on more than one Bill at the same time given that they are interlinked. He asked if Members agree that the Committee be flexible about this. He thanked Members again for their hard work.

Meeting adjourned.