SAPS Quarterly Reports; with Minister and Deputy Minister

Meeting report

The Chairperson welcomed Members, the delegation, and the Minister and Deputy Minister of Police to the Committee meeting. During the recess, many Members experienced serious challenges and the Chairperson expressed her sympathies to those who contracted COVID-19.

The Chairperson congratulated Ms J Mofokeng (ANC) on her appointment as the Chief Whip for the Portfolio Committee of Justice. Members were reminded these meetings are conducted virtually, and were asked if everyone present could identify themselves for security concerns.

On 31 March 2020, the Minister of Finance issued a notice in the Government Gazette, according to Section 92 of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA). This exempts Executive Authorities from tabling Annual Reports and Financial Statements of the respective departments and institutions, within six months after the end of the current financial year.

These documents are usually tabled by the end of September. However, authorities must table these documents within two months of the normal deadline, being the end of November. This deadline was extended because of the national lockdown, and will inevitably affect the work and programming of the Assembly and the consideration of the Budget Review and Recommendations Reports (BRRR).

As noted within the Money Act, Parliament and its Committees must annually assess each department’s performance. It requires these assessments to reference departmental reports and financial statements, amongst other aspects. These assessments are conducted early in October in accordance with the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS), and the Money Act. It states the BRRR be submitted, and if adopted, conveyed to the responsible Minister prior to its adoption of the reports on the MTBPS.

The Speaker wrote to the Leader of Government Business, and the Minister of Finance. The Speaker asked if the Annual Reports could be tabled as soon as possible, and asked the Department to ensure Members receive the necessary information to interrogate departmental performance.

The Chairperson said the Minister already did this.

The following procedures are proposed to take place from 6 to 16 October 2020, for Committees to consider the Departmental performance and prepare the BRRR.

Given the prescripts of the Money Act, the Committees will only be able to conclude the BRRRs once the Annual Reports are tabled, by 16 November. The purpose of these meetings is to conduct a preliminary assessment of departmental performance. Committees are expected to utilise the quarterly reports from the department, to scrutinise the financial statements. Government was asked to assist Members and make the necessary information available.  This period is used to assess senior performance for the current financial year, especially in light of COVID-19 related measures and reports.

The Minister of Finance is scheduled to table the MTBPS on 21 October, after which the relevant sections will be referred to with the respective Committees. Departments must table Annual Reports as soon as possible, and Committees need to process this without any delay.

Departments with difficult matters will table reports by 16 November and those affected by late submission of Annual Reports can meet from 17 to 19 November. Once the BRRRs are tabled, the Committee will consider the reports, and then consider the MTBPS.

The Chairperson asked Members if there are any questions related to the above information, and if Members are happy to move for the adoption of the above agenda.

Mr E Maphatsoe (ANC) moved for its adoption and it was seconded by Ms Mofokeng.

Mr Maphatsoe said he will be leaving at 11am to attend a doctor’s appointment and would return after.

The Chairperson accepted the apology and noted an apology received from Mr A Whitfield (DA), and Ms Mofokeng, who would be leaving early to attend the meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Justice.

The presentation will begin with quarter four and questions will be taken at the end of the entire presentation. The Ministry will only be attending the meeting today due to the Cabinet Lekgotla. Members are therefore allowed to direct the majority of questions to the Minister. The Chairperson asked if Members would move for the adoption of this proposal.

It was adopted by Mr Maphatsoe and seconded by Ms Mofokeng.

Members voiced frustration regarding the length of these meetings, and questioned its significance. The Chairperson said these meetings are necessary to inform the public of the Department’s performance. The Minister was asked to introduce the presentation.
 
SAPS Quarter Four and Quarter One performance
The Minister greeted the Chairperson, Members, officials, the National Commissioners and guests. He acknowledged the country is currently in uncharted waters with quarter four taking place during lockdown, where drastic changes happened. He noted things will never be the same again. The Minister is hopeful the current new normal will change for the better. While most individuals have the luxury of staying at home and indoors during this period, many people were called to the frontline to assist the country, especially when the laws changed. The police officers have always been frontline workers and did not have a choice to decline the call to action with many members falling victim to COVID-19.

The Minister handed over to the National Commissioner and his team to begin the presentation.

The Chairperson thanked the Minister for the introduction and said the Committee will take his message seriously and interrogate it further during the discussion. Before starting the presentation, the Chairperson called for a moment of silence for the frontline workers who lost their lives during this period, as well as paid tribute to the late Lieutenant Colonel Charl Kinnear.

GenKhehla Sitole, National Commissioner of Police, read out the officials present at the meeting. The presentation will be led by Maj. Gen. Leon Rabie, Component Head: Strategic Management, SAPS.
 
SAPS 2019/2020 Fourth Quarter Performance
Maj Gen Rabie handed over to Lt Gen Puleng Dimpane, Chief Financial Officer, SAPS, to take the Committee through the financial results.

She said the total spending for quarter four was 26.8% of the budget, and according to the income statement of the unaudited results, the Department spent 99.2% of voted funds.

Overview of Spending Performance
The Criminal Justice System implementation spending was lower than planned as conditions imposed by National Treasury were only lifted halfway through the financial year (R479.7 million was not spent).

Spending on building and capital environment was also lower than planned and could not be used to defray current expenditure (R274.3 million was not spent).

Spending on goods and services comprised 99.9% of allocated budget.

Transfers and subsidies comprised 122.2% of allocated budget because of increased payments made towards the civil claim environment.

Payments for capital assets comprised 72.5 % of allocated budget which includes the Criminal Justice System implementation, and buildings and other capital projects which were lower than expected.

For further statistics, see presentation attached.  

Discussion
Mr O Terblanche (DA) thanked the Chairperson and said he will direct his questions towards the Minister.

There is significant underperformance by the forensic service laboratories.  It is a longstanding issue. He asked the Minister if any plans are in place to address this matter and ensure the evidence needed to charge individuals in court are delivered successfully. He said there is under performance regarding finalisation of firearm licenses. A court rule says the South African Police Force (SAPS) used the firearm permit system unlawfully for over a year. This is deeply concerning. He asked for clarity from the Minister regarding this matter.

One of the ongoing areas of concern is the underperformance towards reducing crimes against women and children, and improving the detection rates of these crimes. He said the President made a promise to address these crimes, which all committed to. As such, he asked the Minister to elaborate on the plans in place to assist in reducing gender based crimes.  

Dr P Groenewald (FF+) reminded Members of a meeting which took place a year ago, where he argued it is of utmost importance for the Portfolio Committee of Police to shake hands with police services to better its efforts on fighting crime. The Committee is a body which represents the people of South Africa, and is responsible to ensure there is correct oversight of all matters.  He said, during this process, the Committee needs to criticise where necessary, but also figure out what it can do to strengthen the work of police services to fight crime effectively.

There is a clear distinction between the function of the Ministry and the police services. The National Commissioner is responsible for the functioning of the police services which the Minister has no jurisdiction over. The Minister cannot tell the Commissioner how to conduct operational activities. There should be a good relationship between the two.

Dr Groenewald said it is with great sadness he has to address the Minister regarding remarks he made in Normandien. The Minister is supposed to set the example for the country on how to successfully fight crime. However, according to reports, the Minister lost his temper and said farmers must stop complaining if they (farmers) get hurt or injured. He asked the Minister what he meant by this statement as the farmers interpreted it as an attempt to incite violence against them (farmers).
It was reported the Minister lost his temper when a farmer asked him if it is fair for other farmers’ cattle to graze on his grass. To this the Minister said, quote unquote, who does he think he is to ask such a question, he is arrogant. 

Regarding a court case from two years ago where a farmer was found not guilty, the Minister said he would reopen this case for further investigation. As such, Dr Groenewald asked the Minister who he thinks he is to reopen a case after the court made its verdict. Over the weekend The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs publicly condemned the murder of young farmers while the Minister stayed silent.

He asked how the Minister plans to stabilise relationships when making remarks such as this, and asked for an explanation. The Minister allegedly said the farm murders are not a priority. Dr Groenewald asked how it is possible for the Minister to determine which crimes are prioritised, as operational issues fall to the Commissioner.

Dr Groenewald asked the Chairperson if he could ask questions on the budget, as he directed all his questions to the Minister.

The Chairperson said he is out of order as Dr Groenewald already asked additional questions. The Chairperson said there would be a second round of questioning where Dr Groenewald can raise his concerns.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) asked a question regarding the investigations of corruption in the procurement of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). He wanted to know if the Department could elaborate on the progress made thus far, as well as the preventative steps taken to mitigate any further fraudulent and corrupt activities.

Mr Shembeni voiced his concerns about the Department failing to implement the Integrated Case Docket Management System (ICDMS) at 18 police stations. He asked the Department to provide the total amount spent on the development and implementation of the ICDMS. Because of this failure, he questioned the accuracy of the statistics presented by SAPS and asked the Department how it is able to ensure accuracy of its information without the ICDMS.

Concerning the matter of members failing firearms training, he asked what measures are in place to address this. He also asked if additional training will be granted; what the current status of these members are; and if these members were granted permission to carry firearms despite failing the mandatory training program.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) noted the requests from Interpol member countries. He said the police missed these targets, as it only managed to secure the arrests of 63.8% of suspects. He asked if police are continuing the search for criminals and suspects requested by Interpol countries, and how far along the investigations are.

Regarding lost or stolen SAPS firearms, he asked how the Department is managing this issue. Someone showed him a video clip of a drunken police officer with members of the community pulling out the officer’s firearm without him knowing. He queried if the Department is familiar with such abuse and irresponsibility from officers, and if asked if the police has measures in place to deal with these issues. It is embarrassing to see a police officer drunk with the officer’s firearm taken out of his holster without the officer being aware. Firearms are being stolen and lost regularly. Rev Meshoe asked if there are severe penalties for members who lose firearms, as there is a lot of carelessness in handling these arms by some officers.

Concerning the case of the assassination of one of the best detectives Lieutenant Colonel Charl Kinnear, he asked for clarity on who holds the power to decide to withdraw police protection from any detective dealing with high profile cases. He also asked why this was allowed. He suspects the individual who withdrew protection is someone who was in the process of being charged and arrested.

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) asked about the accuracy of the statistics presented, as there are people who still have not received case numbers. She asked when SAPS is moving to the online systems to open cases, and how long this transition will take.

Regarding the performance indicator targets, she suggested a note be included explaining why these targets were not met. This is to make it easier to understand, instead of asking about each indicator individually.

Regarding crime statistics presented, Ms Majozi said it is not looking good, and said SAPS must get it together.

Ms P Faku (ANC) expressed her appreciation for the report the Committee received. Touching on the issue of farm murders she said one needs to appreciate the job the Minister has done thus far. She said, when there were farm murders taking place in KZN, the Minister immediately left to look into these matters. Some black farmers at the time raised concerns and frustrations, saying the Minister prioritised the killing of white farmers and not black farmers. Therefore, the Committee should not politicise the matter based on its constituency, but rather agree all murders need to be prioritised by SAPS.

She said not too long ago, Dr Groenewald thanked the Minister for the work he did to address farm murders. She asked Members to be consistent when raising concerns. As a Committee, Members condemn all farm murders, however Members need to express the Committee’s gratitude when good work is done, and indicate arising grey areas to address it.

Regarding the matter of gender-based violence (GBV), she said there is continued underperformance to reduce the crimes committed against women and children. In South Africa gender-based violence is exceptionally high. This is recognised as a priority in our government. She said the Department is not doing justice towards reducing these crimes, and asked the Department to elaborate on the plan of action in place to improve its performance. On a daily basis a large number of young children and women are killed and trafficked, and are not safe in this country. As a mother she is fearful for her daughter who will attend university next year in the Free State. She pleaded for more action, than what is currently in place, to be taken.

She asked for clarity on the higher planned spending on transfers and subsidies. These are primarily payment of packages to the households of 786 employees who retired early. She asked if there is sufficient planning in place to ensure the payment process for this matter runs smoothly.
 
The Chairperson said the work being done by law agencies at the moment is commendable. She thanked the frontline staff for its work, particularly work done during the COVID-19 lockdown period. The Chairperson noted the Presidents closing remarks during the ruling party’s Lekgotla the previous day, where he mentioned the movement of bribes, the use of financial systems to launder elicit money flows, and the issue of human trafficking. The government prioritised violence and crimes targeted toward women and children, as well as corruption. It will be monitored on a regular basis by the Committee. She noted this will also include agricultural crimes, which will be considered as economic crimes.

Responses
The Minister thanked the Chairperson and agreed with the sentiments of the President. The Minister said GBV is the second pandemic plaguing South Africa. These crimes must be fought collectively by communities and protective agencies together. There is no one single way to address these crimes.

In the 2019 financial year, evidence shows 18 000 women were abused in their own homes by family members or people close to the victim. Although the police are not able to patrol every house to ensure these crimes are not committed, there was an improvement in the increase of arrests on GBV.

Referring to the case of the Orange Farm murders, where a six year old and an eight year old were found murdered by a 29 year old woman, he noted the failure of the court as this woman had already been arrested for the murder of a seven year old boy whose body was found in her fridge.  She was released due to a delay in the toxicology results. It is clear these crimes are being committed by those who have been granted bail, as it gives the perpetrator access to the next victim. Many high profile cases led to successful arrests, but unfortunate sentences. However, there is a significant degree of sentencing from the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Unit (FCS) with 4728 life sentences. The Minister said gender based violence is a difficult matter which requires the country to work together to combat it.

On Sunday morning the Minister travelled to Langa because the Minister received a phone call from citizens at 3am, complaining the citizens could not sleep because of a street party taking place. Upon arrival he was shocked to discover this party was attended by children as young as 10 and 13. After consulting various colleagues he was made aware this was in fact part of a sex party. Mothers of these children complained the police did nothing to assist in ending the party and collecting these children from the streets.

The Minister asked these same mothers why the children were granted permission to leave home, and why children were left unsupervised. Even if these children are arrested, the magistrate would demand children be returned home. There needs to be an increase of responsibility from parents, communities, and society at large to assist with such cases. The police are in the process of improving its services by training an additional 312 officers. It is also working closely with the prosecution to assist with these training processes, and ensuring better channels of communication to deal with matters.

In reply to Dr Groenewald’s concerns, the Minister said the Minister did not make the remarks reported. Unfortunately, he saw the headline, but could not understand what was said. He reiterated he would never be so irresponsible as to publicly justify harming innocent civilians.

On the issue of the gentleman he called arrogant, the Minister said the gentleman personally attacked him (the Minister). The gentleman instructed the Minister to shake the Minister’s head, or nod, every time he (the gentleman) spoke, to ensure the Minister was listening to what he (the gentleman) was saying.

The Minister said he found this remark to be unacceptable and disrespectful. He replied by saying the man was arrogant. There were over 100 South African’s in attendance at this meeting who made very productive contributions to the discussion. It is surprising the media reported on this incident which had nothing to do with the matters at hand.

The Minister said he was called to assist with matters of crime and policy as a means to improve the working relationships between the communities, and support the family of the victim who was murdered. Fortunately, the Minister said someone is in custody for the murder and the police are close to arresting three more individuals. In the context of crime, the police have done well. 

He argued that he would not be debating Dr Groenewald’s argument on his views of policing operations and constitutional matters because he does not believe that these are correct. At the end of the day the Executive Authority is responsible for all matters which is why these questions are being directed towards the Minister.

When it comes to the loss of life, no case is prioritised over another. The Minister reassured Dr Groenewald the police are taking the farm murders seriously.

Regarding the issue of the second statement, and the young man who was killed, the Minister said he had no memory of saying this. However, he is in constant communication with the Member of Executive Council (MEC), and police in the area. He is pleased to inform the Committee two people have been arrested. Unfortunately, one of these suspects has previously been arrested twice for stock theft, while the other was arrested nine times for similar crimes. He questioned why this suspect was not in jail having committed so many crimes and suggests working with the entire chain of command going forward, as there is clearly something wrong. In Mpumalanga the community and Gauteng police worked together to capture the criminals and were successful. However the car capsized, and unfortunately resulted in the death of the wife.
 
Concerning the case in Groblersdal Limpopo, there was also a loss of life as the husband died. Evidence shows it was not a standard farm murder and police are looking into matters of domestic violence. Similarly in KZN, there is a case with evidence of domestic violence which was brought to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) for further investigation. The Minister assured Members these matters are taken very seriously. 

Regarding the matter of reopening a case, the Minister said, a statement was made during a meeting which was deeply concerning. There was an allegation made, saying the farmer who shot a person mistook him for a baboon. Mr Collier said he shot a dog, and it just so happened next to the dog lay a dead man, and did not understand why police were looking into a case from ten years ago. He said it did not matter when the incident took place, what mattered was someone was killed. Again it is interesting the media reports of these meetings are vastly different to what actually occurred and no other information was noted besides this exchange.

Dr Groenewald called on the Chairperson and said what the Minister said was very important. He said what was published in Afrikaans was: Die Boere moenie klaar as hulle seer kry nie. As a Committee one needs to ensure there is an investigation into reporting false information, as this statement sparked serious issues in the communities.

The Chairperson thanked Dr Groenewald for his comment and said she will facilitate the process to issue a media statement after the meeting with the relevant parties.  

The Minister thanked the Chairperson and said if there is further investigation, he would happily assist. Regarding the co-operation with Interpol, the Minster said there is constant communication. Even though the borders were closed, trips are still being approved to meet requests. Even though there are outstanding names of suspects, the Department is continuously trying to assist.

Concerning early retirement and spending, he said police officers usually retire at 60. However, for some unknown reason, Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA) allow officers to retire at 50 without any financial penalties. In a single month, 200 policemen retired with an additional 300 in the following month. Upon requesting an audience with these officers to discuss the reasons for the early retirement, he discovered, while some are leaving because of illnesses, most are frustrated with the institution. Officers feel not taken care of. The budget was created on the assumption officers will not retire before the age of 55. Not only is the Department losing experienced officers, but it requires additional funding. The DPSA believes allowing early retirement will save money when it is in fact doing the opposite. As such, the Minister said he will address the matter.

Gen Sitole (National Commissioner of Police) noted his appreciation for the questions asked by Members. He said he will reply to matters of statistics, and his team will reply to all operational questions.

In response to the underperformance of forensic laboratories, he said the forensic division was declared as a high priority for corporate renewal. As such, he instructed all the relevant parties involved to work on the agent acquisition of mobile laboratories. With the assistance from Treasury, this process is currently at an advanced stage and experienced minor delays because of receiving services from outside the country. He said the Department is monitoring the situation and hopes to distribute the laboratories in a number of districts, to improve service delivery and response time.

On the issue of gender-based violence and the abuse of children, he said the Department is constantly increasing the capacity of the response units such as FCS, the capacity to investigate cold cases, and its complimentary specialised units.

However, the implementation of preventative measures to balance out the reactive work already taking place, is what is needed. There are many root causes why these crimes, which are supported by the continuous deterioration of our society’s moral fibre, are committed. These crimes are becoming difficult to prevent as it takes place more frequently within families. The Commissioner said the Department created an initiative to increase the education and awareness of these issues. It collaborates with institutions throughout communities, such as Memeza technology. The Department aims to intensify the gender-based activation plan, to ensure immediate response as these crimes take place.

Regarding the issue of Interpol, the Department has a formal strategy and action plan to deal with this. As requests come in, an investigation is opened immediately and continues until the target is found.

Regarding the matter of the drunken officer, it is an issue of misconduct which is not discussed but rather acted upon. An internal investigation is already underway. Under normal circumstances when a firearm is lost, a section 102 investigation takes place, which runs concurrently with an internal investigation. There is the possibility of the officer being deemed unfit, and charged departmentally. Depending on the nature of the case, it can result in immediate dismissal.

On the withdrawal of police protection, the authority falls to the National Commissioner. This is according to the existing policy framework. Immediately after the incident took place, he (the Commissioner), appointed a Lieutenant General to conduct an investigation into the matter. It is not yet over. Upon receiving the preliminary report it became evident no police protection was formally approved for the late detective. However, preliminary deployment was pending a threat assessment. The procedure regarding protection and security depends on a threat assessment.  If the threat is considered as high risk, police are deployed immediately as a temporary measure, while a threat assessment by an intelligence team takes place. Depending on these results protection is either withdrawn or continued. He is awaiting the final report to fully understand what took place, why protection was withdrawn, and when it was arranged, because as of now evidence indicates there was no formally approved protection escalated to the Commissioner’s office.

Responding to the issue of transitioning to online policing, he said this modernisation begun with the Justice Crime Prevention and Security (JCPS) cluster. It is working with a number of online processes at the moment, including ICDMS. The development of online policing strategy succeeded at 90% and the Department is not far away from finalising it. It also started working on various online platforms which covers all of policing.

The Commissioner agreed with the suggestion to present the Committee with an action plan directed at combating gender based violence. The Department prepares for this, and awaits further direction from the Committee as to when this specific meeting will take place.

Lt Gen Bonang Mgwenya, Deputy National Commissioner: Human Resource Management, SAPS, replied to the question raised regarding firearm and competence training. She said, out of the 2 559 trainees, 2 354 successfully passed training, while 205 were declared not competent. There are provisions in place for those who failed to receive retraining, and also those subjected to remedial courses. Those who failed are not issued firearms. It is mandatory to pass the training before firearms can be issued, even in the cases where individuals passed the legal principal training and failed firearm training.

In the case where officers are found drunk while in possession of firearms, there are disciplinary provisions and regulations in place. These offences are seen as serious misconduct and a violation of the code of conduct. These officers will be dealt with according to the expedition process, which dictates a report will be compiled on the conduct of the member. It is presented before a senior official elected by the National Commissioner. The member is told when to appear before the officials, and is given an opportunity to be represented, depending on the members merit and the outcome of the report, the member will be dismissed.

Lt Gen Sindile Mfazi, Deputy National Commissioner, Crime Detection, SAPS, agreed ICDMS has not been fully implemented. It does not affect the accuracy of the statistics presented as the aim of the ICDMS is to function together with the CAS and SAPS 6 systems. The 18 stations without ICDMS will not be negatively impacted as the other systems are still functioning, and will produce the necessary statistics needed, as well as the management of cases. Prior to presenting any statistics to the Minister, the Department is assisted by StatsSA to verify and ensure authenticity.  

Responding to the matter of gender based violence, at an operation level there were a number of issues raised. Detectives and FCS units are looking at the situation from various perspectives, and are looking at gender based violence as generated by crime, cyber-crimes, and other subsidiary issues which could relate to criminality. The Police Department must examine its current arrangements, and decide if it is adequate to address these issues. These discussions are referred to organisation development. It is a means to examine the positioning of the division in as far as meeting demand and supply.

Concerning the backlog of DNA, the National Commissioner previously spoke on the introduction of the mobile labs. However, the Deputy Minister is also leading a project to assist with backlogs of courts in KZN, and rural areas in the Eastern Cape. Through engaging with the Department of Justice and the courts, SAPS is attempting to create a project which will successfully intervene on these matters. Majority of the issues are caused by unreliable suppliers. The Department is looking into alternative methods to assist with tender processes.

Lt Gen (Doctor/Adv) Godfrey Lebeya, National Head: DCPI, replied to the progress of the PPE procurement case, saying the investigation of these matters is included in the COVID-19 relief funds investigations. These cases are dealt with at the fusion centre, collectively with the relief funds. Currently, the teams are investigating 169 cases of this nature. The majority of it is Unemployment Insurance Fund (UIF) cases, with five of it already on the court roll, while the others are at various stages.

Regarding firearm licensing, Maj Gen S Pienaar, Acting Divisional Commissioner: Visible Policing, SAPS, said the target set was based on the working procedures at the time. 90 days was considered to be an attainable time frame. Upon continuously failing to meet this target, the working procedures were reviewed resulting in changing the target to 120 days. Internal experts were asked to conduct a detailed analysis of the standard operating procedures at each level to ensure these targets are met.
For members to take firearms home, members have to complete the training previously discussed, which includes instructions on how to safely carry firearms. Each member is issued with a safe provided to the member by the Police Department, for the member to safely store the firearms off duty. Each firearm is pin marked and assessed prior to issue to any member, to ensure it can be easily traced back to the member, especially in cases where the firearm was used in a crime.

The Chairperson thanked the Minister, the Commissioner, and the team for the responses and said there was only 30 minutes remaining of the meeting. Before moving into the second round of questions, the Chairperson asked the Commissioner to indicate who would be present at the meeting over the next three days, as the President is not allowing any apologies during the Cabinet Lekgotla. The Chairperson asked if a senior member from both the Minister and Commissioner teams could be available to attend the meetings in their absence.

Follow-up Questions
Rev Meshoe said he was disappointed at the answer he received regarding the withdrawal of police protection for the late Colonel Kinnear.  It was indicated there was no formal protection provided to him. Dealing with criminals from the underworld is exceptionally dangerous and violent. He queried if Colonel Kinnear was the only detective who was not given protection, or if all detectives dealing with violent criminals were in fact not protected. If officers are not protected, Rev Meshoe wanted to know why, and if officers are protected he asked why it was denied to Colonel Kinnear.

It is clear suspects are being granted bail even though police are opposed to the decision.  He asked if the Minister is engaging with the Justice clusters to illustrate to the consequences of granting repeat offenders bail.

On the issue of young children attending a sex party in Langa, Rev Meshoe said these parents are allowing children to be on the streets late at night. Many parents complained of not being able to discipline children because many children run to the police stations with allegations of being abused by parents, when parents attempt to discipline the children. As such, he asked if there is a link between these parties and the increasing rates of child trafficking, and asked if an investigation was conducted yet to look into these matters.

Dr Groenewald asked what measures are taken to prevent further corruption of PPE, and asked about the progress of the final identification of corruption. 42 people were arrested in 2018 for the alleged involvement in a criminal case related to a police vehicle brandy. As this directly compromised the supply chain management, he asked what is being done to strengthen this division and prevent corruption.

Regarding the dispute between the Information Technology (IT) company and the firearm system, he asked what the Firearm Registration Centre is currently doing to register these weapons, seeing as the IT system cannot be used until the matter is resolved.

In the media the firearm registry recently came under fire for allegations of corruption. This is not the first time this happened. He referred to a case from three years ago, where a Colonel was convicted for selling over 1000 firearms to gangs in the Western Cape. He asked what steps were taken to ensure this level of corruption does not re-occur.

Lastly, referring to slide 17 on communication infrastructure, he said, not only was the target not met but it received a 0. He asked for an explanation on this matter, because if there is no proper communication channel then crime cannot be fought effectively.  

Mr Terblanche asked for an explanation on what is being done to manage the constant increase toward civil claims. In the past a briefing was scheduled from the supply chain management division, which has yet to take place. There have been consistent issues with capital works regarding bullet proof vests and uniforms. He asked for clarity on the matter.  He suggested a presentation be made the Committee to address the underperformance of detection rates by detectives, as this is highly concerning.

Ms Faku said there should be a bilateral meeting between this Committee and Justice to address the issue of granting bail to repeat offenders. She also called upon the churches and its leaders to assist with educating communities on the issue of gender based violence, as an increasing number of these crimes are committed by family members.  She asked if the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) could provide the Committee with the statistics of organised crime in the province.

The Chairperson thanked all Members and asked for follow-up questions to be responded to in writing, as there are time constraints. The Chairperson said the Committee is in the process of increasing the time allocated to the meeting.

The meeting was adjourned.