SABC turnaround plan implementation; with Ministry

Meeting report

The livestream video did not cover the start of the virtual meeting, so introductory remarks by Minister, Stella Ndabeni-Abrahams, and Deputy Minister, Ms Pinky Kekana, could not be captured.

SABC CEO, Mr Madoda Mxakwe, said the COVID-19 pandemic has made it challenging for the SABC to fulfil its mandate in the economic context. The SABC’s mandate is costly and unfunded which has caused it to be a contentious issue over the years. For the 2018 financial year, of its R6.5 billion in revenue, only 3% was direct grants from government. The SABC has had to fund its own mandate with revenue generated from commercial activities. The SABC has worked hard to restore the credibility of its newsroom and the SABC is now the top news agency nationally. The SABC coverage of the 2019 elections received positive feedback for being independent and impartial. He highlighted that the SABC received no funding to cover such events of national interest. The SABC has monthly monitoring meetings with the Communications Department and National Treasury. The SABC turnaround plan is aimed at maximising revenue growth for the compensation of employees, content acquisition costs and signal distribution constituting 12% of SABC expenditure. The SABC has been able to reduce its operational costs; for example, with the elections coverage and a budget of R30 million, only R10 million was spent on this. There has been a 46% reduction on SABC legal costs. Disciplinary cases have been dealt with five yet to be dealt with. The SABC has reviewed all its sales policies to ensure that it can be more competitive as an organisation. Automation processes have been instituted to give a quicker response to advertisers and clients. Some non-core assets have been sold such as flats in London and properties all over South Africa. Cost reduction and addressing its unsustainable cost base has been key for the SABC.

There has been an improvement in net loss. In 2017, the SABC experienced a R1.2 billion net loss and in 2019 it had a R444 million net loss. In 2018, the SABC highlighted the exorbitant costs for sports rights acquisition and this was now reduced through negotiations. One of the sports rights was renegotiated from R1.4 billion to R360 million over a period of five years. SABC has decommissioned TV properties that are not performing well in terms of audience rating and revenue and this practice has become standard procedure. SABC has been engaging with Sentech on reducing signal distribution costs as it accounts for 12% of expenditure. This is an ongoing process and the Committee will be informed once it has been concluded. SABC has changed its utilisation of freelancers to ensure that there is alignment between permanent employees and what freelancers do. SABC considered how permanent employees could fulfil the role of freelancers to control the high cost base compensation. Rate cuts have also been developed for freelancers in all divisions such as sports and radio and the goal is to streamline processes and reduce unnecessary costs.

Employee costs are still extremely high and over R200 million will be needed each month to pay permanent employees and freelancers. For every R1 generated in revenue, over 40 cents will have to be spent toward employee compensation. A R700 million reduction in compensation will be needed for the SABC to break even. Only 23% has been spent on content acquisition and more should be spent on this to enhance revenue. SABC has finished Phase 1 of its skills audit and Phase 2 will be completed at the end of the month. It has given a sense of qualifications, skills and competencies that SABC employees have to help in talent management, training and development, succession, career pathing and the retention of employees.

SABC turnaround plan & financial status report
SABC CFO, Ms Yolande van Biljon, said that after 9 months, on 13 September 2019, the SABC turnaround strategy was approved and would be executed over 36 months. Turnaround plan progress:
- Governance and sustainability: 50% of activities have been completed and 32% are in progress.
- Content and platforms: 63% of activities have been completed and 35% started and in progress.
- Digital and transmission: 33% of activities have been completed and 67% are in progress.
 At the end of June, the SABC will be reporting on due and overdue activities. SABC is eight months into its turnaround plan and none of its activities is overdue yet.

Ms van Biljon said that financial performance progress has been made in recent years and particularly under the auspices of the current management team from 2018 to date. SABC was not necessarily where it would like to be on sports, but given the significant gains on some of its major sporting rights, SABC has secured financial sustainability through these activities. Production activities have been assessed to ensure maximum utilisation and a return on investments.

Historic contract practices and poor contract performance on programme and sports rights are being eradicated and the contracts are up for renewal. There is a shared service mindset where one team is used for broadcasting as opposed to many teams. Freelancers in the region are used to do broadcasting and production and broadcast production costs are interrogated and optimised regularly. A business case is only approved if it is financially viable and commercially sound. On the broadcasting of special events, SABC applies “dipping in and dipping out” which means that it no longer spends nine hours on a specific event that lasts for the duration of the day.

She indicated that there is a new transmission technology in the pipeline for Channel Africa which will secure further savings and efficiencies. SABC has automated broadcasting on certain radio stations between midnight and early morning hours to reduce overtime costs and standby practices. SABC is working closely with its financial institution and other funding institutions in applying its turnaround strategy. Marketing activities were constrained since 18 months ago and cost containment is still being applied on this to ensure that there is no frivolous expenditure. Feedback reports are assessed to ensure that activities achieve their intended outcomes. SABC will be discontinuing an early settlement discount dispensation put in place to make cash available and this will result in savings of an additional R100 million. There has been a 31% reduction in legal fees from the previous to the current year and the budget was underspent by 21%. Legal fees amounted to R26 million in the past financial year. The gap in discipline on staff advances has been dealt with and training, learning and development were further optimised. Travel has seen major savings during the past 18 months in the amount of R50 million as a result of rigorous negotiations on accommodation and travel service providers.

Previously the risks were flagged on both the bailout and the inability to successfully implement the turnaround strategy and COVID-19 has exacerbated this. A 400% increase in losses is anticipated. Revenue is down by R2 billion and is less than 50% of the set monthly target. Revenue from TV licences has also declined. She stressed that if something does not change materially, SABC is likely to face insolvency and liquidity challenges. The bailout funds were never intended for payroll or operational expenditure, but for trade and content and capital investment. SABC has rigorously ensured that the funding is used only for those purposes.

New Target Operating Model
SABC COO, Mr Ian Plaatjes, said the model is based on and embedded in the turnaround strategy with the National Treasury’s preconditions and the strategic objectives around human resources.

There are eight objectives of the Target Operating Model which include finding new revenue generating models, but the other seven objectives do not directly relate to revenue. It is not a neo-liberalist model, but a robust, holistic operating model. Other objectives are to develop compelling content to leverage local creativity and content which SABC will not compromise on while it attempts to reduce costs. The lifespan of content should also be expanded and business processes need to be reengineered. The correct digital skills should be developed from a business and technology perspective and culture. A “fit for purpose” structure must be addressed.

Data analytics and value drivers are important. A third party pays a certain amount for air time and generates revenue for themselves and this is being changed to ensure that future advertiser funded programmes (AFPs) are mutually beneficial. SABC will use leasing studio and outdoor broadcasting facilities to generate revenue. TV licences remain a contentious topic as the SABC was not able to increase the fee over the last five years. Advertising revenue is the core revenue source, but this has been unsuccessful. Advertising has now been changed with salespersons being reskilled and the model changed. Revenue share models have benefitted third parties more, but this model will also be changed to be mutually beneficial.

The overall advertising spent on digital platforms such as Google and Facebook will exceed that of traditional platforms in the current financial year. This has been exacerbated by COVID-19. SABC will be aggressively pursuing partnerships with other SOEs and private companies to turn its business around.

The new model is a dynamic model and as and when there are new value propositions, the model will change completely. The model drives all business decisions.

Mr Bongumusa Makathini, SABC Board Chairperson, requested the Committee allow the CCMA process to unfold saying that the SABC believed it was in its best interests and would prevent it from being reliant on tax payers' hard earned money.

Discussion
Ms P Faku (ANC) said she appreciated the Deputy Minister’s opening remarks on not supporting retrenchments. The Committee should agree. It was clear that the bailout money was not meant for staff. What does the turnaround of staff optimisation entail. She asked for clarity on the new operating model. Why did SABC not charge for the broadcasting of the Minister's briefing. Based on the skills audit, how many employees were retained, redeployed and retrenched and what criteria is used to determine who is retrenched. [Some of Ms Faku’s comments could not be heard due to technical issues].

Mr Plaatjes replied that there are ten revenue drivers and SABC is currently busy with five of the ten drivers. Of the five, two involve revenue and the others are game changers and have nothing to do with advertising revenue. Nobody wants to be associated with a decision to execute a process of retrenchments, particularly during COVID-19. The shareholder recommended reduction of costs and SABC is executing this based on compliance with the pre-conditions set by National Treasury for the bailout and this involves staff reduction. Everyone wants to be associated with a popular decision, but no one wants to be associated with the right decision if its unpopular. On the skills audit, SABC has inherited a bloated structure and it is important to differentiate between a bloated structure and incorrect skills or lack of skills. Regardless of how much people are reskilled, there will still be a bloated structure. Skills development will allow talent management and retention. It was not true that SABC has not been transparent about the Section 189 process and it has been more transparent than any other organisation. The process will begin from 1 July 2020 for 60 days. The criteria for retrenchments have not been determined yet as the process has not begun. This process will be done jointly with unions and staff. He stressed that it would be done in the most humane way possible.

SABC CEO, Mr Mxakwe, said the strategy has already been brought to the Committee several times and the operating model just shared supports that strategy. Members have asked if it had been shared and aligned with the shareholder and the Government Technical Advisory Centre (GTAC) who helped SABC craft the strategy, is present at the meeting and can confirm that they have done an in-depth analysis and also reached the same conclusion that SABC needs to deal with the high staff compensation if it is to be sustainable. Monthly meetings are held with National Treasury and staff optimisation is central to these discussions.

Ms P Van Damme (DA) said the Committee understands that the current board basically inherited an organisation at ground zero and had to rebuild it. Faced with COVID-19, many companies would have to decrease their spending and advertising could be one the areas for this. SABC executives were hired to fix the organisation and that they needed to do exactly that. They should change things so as not to ask for another bailout at the end of the year as it should then be opposed. Salaries were bloated under Hlaudi Motsoeneng and a lot of people were hired. Last year when SABC first told the Committee about possible retrenchments, the Committee had said that a process needed to be followed and she was not under the impression that this process was complete. SABC needed to finish the skills audit and present it to the Committee. She agreed with Ms Faku’s comments on retrenchments and the skills audit. She referred to a letter sent by SABC staff to the Committee on retrenchments and said it was very concerning. Committee members must not confuse the role of the Committee with that of being a union as its role was as public representatives and not as party representatives. The process of retrenchments must be fair. In the letter SABC staff raised that they had not been consulted and had not been given any feedback on the audit. She emphasised that the audit needed to be redone and that management needed to communicate with staff. SABC should not be populist. She requested that SABC deal with the process of retrenchments with dignity as there was a lot of anxiety surrounding the issue so the process should be handled carefully. The unfunded mandate is for broadcasting events of political importance and the Committee needs to consider how this will be funded. She reiterated that retrenchments cannot be done until everyone involved was properly consulted as they were dealing with people’s jobs and lives in a very anxious and challenging time. She thanked SABC executives for the work they have done thus far.

Mr Mxakwe replied the first phase of the audit assisted in determining skills and competencies of current employees. There was another segment which looked at skills and gaps in competencies. The exercise SABC has done thus far has given an idea of the qualifications, skills and competencies that its employees have. 826 people do not match on skills and competencies which leaves the opportunity for upskilling. He emphasised that SABC was not being alarmist when it says that it needs to deal with employee costs. The monthly salary bill is becoming increasingly untenable for SABC and has been worsened by the fact that there has been a huge decline in revenue since most clients have not been investing as they usually do. SABC has seen the letter which was addressed to the Committee and will be looking into this. SABC does not want to get involved in parallel processes. On the unfunded mandate, SABC has submitted proposals and plans and has not heard back on this.

Mr L Molala (ANC) said the Committee should stop comparing what happened in the past with what is happening now. The reason Parliament appointed a new board was to do better than what was done before. The bailout request was specifically about turning around the organisation. The sentiment he observed is that the SABC was going to ask for another bailout. Signal distribution costs and governance challenges have always been challenges and the Committee had asked for a breakdown of what would be done with the money even before the bailout was given. This was not presented as requested. Despite the bailout, it seems as if this has not contributed to increasing SABC revenue. On Section 189 of the Labour Relations Act, Ms Van Damme is correct that the Committee is not a union, but public representatives. SABC had to go back and finish the skills audit as it did not make any sense that they retrenched people, but employed more people which will cost more. He congratulated SABC on the sports rights it acquired. Has any government grant been directed to the SABC?

Mr Mxakwe replied that the R3.2 billion bailout was for outstanding debts, compelling content and maintenance. It is important to note that even at this point we have historical debt. SABC is not pursuing people. Section 189 has been done with consultation and due process will be followed through the CCMA.

On employing more people, Mr Plaatjes referred to an analogy saying that if SABC was a ship which needed to sail, it needs a captain, a navigator and engineers which all require core skills. If we do not have a full ship, we might not need all the waiters which is where SABC finds itself now. Over 300 hundred vacancies have been filled to ensure that this ship will sail in the right direction and reach its destination on time.

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) thanked the SABC for their hard work. She asked what steps SABC had taken on the Public Protector’s report. She asked for clarity on retrenchments and who would be affected by that. She asked if the SABC would come back to ask for another bailout. Has SABC received any funds from the R1 billion allocated for communication on the COVID-19 pandemic?

Mr Mxakwe replied that if SABC is not doing headcount reduction and does not get the R7 million, it will have to approach government again, particularly for the employee compensation bill. Government must offer R1 billion toward salaries.

Mr C Mackenzie (DA) thanked the SABC for an informative presentation and said it seemed as if it was on track. There was a massive reduction in sports rights acquisition and asked what SABC had done to cause such a dramatic reduction. This is a tremendous achievement and needs to be commended. Does SABC do a lot of work with community broadcasters? Does SABC practice decentralised public broadcasting or enter into these types of arrangements? Given the move from analogue to digital, it seems like a lot of community radio stations would be eager to partner with SABC. On the unfunded mandate, what percentage of revenue is received from TV licences and is this declining?

Mr Mxakwe replied that in reducing costs, SABC had to look at the commercial viability of sports rights and negotiate. There was a huge stand off between the parties involved and public outcry over it. SABC is open to engagements with community broadcasters. TV licence revenue is declining. With the lockdown, TV licence payments declined significantly due to lockdown regulations, the lack of purchase of TV sets and the payments that could not take place due to limited movement.

Ms N Kubheka (ANC) asked if there were any discussions on retrenchments with the shareholder and what was the shareholder's position. The Committee did not want to see SABC collapse. The skills audit should be treated with dignity as people’s lives were at stake.

Mr Mxakwe replied that there were engagements between the SABC Board Chairperson and shareholder and letters were written on this. It is very clear that the headcount at SABC has to be reduced.

Dr M Ndlozi (EFF) said he thought it would be short sighted not to locate the entire SABC strategic recovery in the historic problem of running the public broadcaster. The technologies of broadcasting are constantly changing and SABC experienced significant problems with the introduction of paid television. It has been forced over the years to provide free content to MultiChoice and to give MultiChoice its audience. This is a fundamental scandal in the broadcasting history in which SABC has to do its business. It is important because SABC cannot sustainably be run as a business without addressing this scandal. The Minister as a member of Cabinet should deal with this and he understood it was given to the Deputy Minister to deal with. It should be so important that it sits directly in the Cabinet. This is an injustice that must be corrected and a deal should be made to allow SABC not to give MultiChoice free content. There must be a law or regulation that forces MultiChoice to inculcate in its subscription the SABC TV licence.

As soon as the public broadcaster fell into the hands of the democratic government, it was sabotaged by what became a monopoly which is white-owned. This is the first sabotage that must be corrected. He asked the Minister what is being done about this. To this day SABC is giving free content to MultiChoice by law. This cannot be the case.

He acknowledged that there are many other costs which SABC had managed to reduce, but did not report on during the meeting and said that they deserved applause for this. The second form of sabotage which is outside the control of SABC is government advertising. In the National Treasury budget, for instance, on COVID-19 matters, R1 billion was allocated for communication on the COVID-19 pandemic, but no assistance has been offered to the SABC. Government is at the forefront of sabotaging SABC. If you consider the entire government spending on advertising, less than 30% of government spending on the broadcasting sector goes to SABC despite it having the greatest audiences by any account. The Minister should answer this question.

MultiChoice has made a deal with Netflix and Amazon because they have seen that the future of broadcasting is moving completely online. He asked if the Minister was going to change the law to allow SABC to play in the direct to home (DTH) space, because broadcasting has changed. If allowed to do so, SABC will get a lot of revenue and give M-Net and Mzansi Magic a run for its money. MultiChoice has been given twenty years and we need not to do this anymore. Retrenchments must be looked at in a broader context. While we can ask that the process is conducted with a sense of dignity and humanity, the executive must be questioned on revenue. What happened to the idea that SABC staff sabotaged President Ramaphosa’s address last year? What has its investigation revealed to SABC? Sabotage is tantamount to treason and if there was no sabotage, SABC must come out to the public and retract its statement. The integrity of the SABC newsroom is important. The SABC team should be supported in every way and he thought they were on the right track.

Mr Mxakwe replied that the SABC has been addressing the findings of the Public Protector report and it has only one outstanding which will be dealt with in the next 14 days. On retrenchments, it is not just low-level employees who are affected, but across the board. SABC has about 409 managers out of a staff of 3000.

Mr W Madisha (COPE) said SABC workers must not be retrenched as they cannot join the more than 15 million people in the country who are not working. He was angry to hear this. The initial amount requested by SABC was roughly R6 billion and the Committee agreed that they should be supported, but since Treasury had not agreed, an amount of R3.2 billion was offered instead. The R3.2 billion was not given to SABC at once, but instead they received roughly just over R2 billion. What further disappointed him is that in another meeting, the SABC had indicated that there was progress and improvement. Why did the SABC not tell the truth? SABC workers are civil servants and cannot just be kicked out. SABC management must do their work properly and not lie. He agreed with Dr Ndlozi on the SABC large listenership, but it is unable to grow its revenue. What is SABC’s plan of action? He implored the Minister to ensure that the correct thing was done.

Mr Mxakwe replied that SABC has never lied to the Committee. It has always told the Committee that the cost of staff compensation is inhibiting the capability of SABC. He stressed that SABC has never said that this was not an issue.

Mr Makathini replied that there has been consultation with the shareholder. A letter was sent to the Minister on 10 June 2020 on the turnaround strategy which was sponsored and approved by the Board and the Minister. He respectfully disagreed with Mr Madisha that SABC has lied to the Committee. He asked for clarity on whether the Committee supported the Board resolution to turnaround the SABC so that it can understand what is expected of it now.

Ministry response
Minister Ndabeni-Abrahams said that the Deputy Minister is the political principal dealing with the SABC and would respond to the questions. She referred to Dr Ndlozi’s questions and clarified that the Deputy Minister submits reports and recommendations that go to Parliament.

Deputy Minister Kekana said there should be shift in the perception of SABC as a state owned entity (SOE) of government. [Some comments made by the Deputy Minister could not be heard due to technical issues]. As with all other SOEs, proper recapitalisation of SOEs including SABC has been a challenge. The bailout and some of its preconditions is something that the SABC board and executives were assisted with and they were able to deal with the matter. It is a pity that when the CFO presented, only one slide was flighted. The most important issue of the bailout is the Sentech signal distribution cost which took more than half a billion rand. SABC was dealing with personnel expenditure, legal expenditure and many other items which have been dealt with. Critical to some of these is the must-carry regulations and the Sentech matter was referred to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) to ask it to intervene as the regulator.

They were asked if SABC was paying what is due or if they were overcharged. The must-carry issue had to be reviewed. If people cannot afford to pay, the TV will become dark and people would not even be able to watch SABC. ICASA is still dealing with the sports rights. The unfunded mandate such as state funerals is one of the items that we are assisting the SABC with. At this point a COVID-19 intervention of R140 million is needed. Last week SABC approached National Treasury about this as its already faces a revenue gap reaching a total of R1.5 billion from the shifting and changing of schedules. SABC has received no money for advertising during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Deputy Minister said that if SABC partners with DBE it would be able to get some money from virtual classrooms, but this has not happened because the Department said it was being charged commercial costs. If a health channel is created in partnership with the Health Department, SABC could also secure some funds. SABC has a partnership with the Over-The-Top (OTT) streaming provider, Viu, which is R100 million per annum and assists in creating more revenue streams.

The Deputy Minister said that the SABC was aware of black tax and the people who are and will be affected by job losses so we do not agree with job losses and support the fact that SABC should go back and complete its skills audit. On the DTT, SABC must ensure that the market makes available what is needed as not everyone can afford paid TV.

SABC response
Mr Plaatjes replied that there is a misconception that SABC is resisting DTT, but all the content on SABC sports and news channels is on DTT. The challenge with DTT is that it has a footprint of only 500 000 households and SABC cannot compete with analogue competitors. SABC was approached by the Minister at the start of lockdown to assist the Department of Basic Education (DBE). A DTT channel was launched for education and it asked the Department to use SABC linear channels such as SABC 1, 2 and 3 at a displacement cost at 40% discount. SABC said the Department did not need to pay the amount, but that SABC would jointly approach sponsors with them. For example sponsoring one lesson for R1 million would get the sponsor R1 million worth of air time elsewhere on SABC channels, but the Department did not take up this offer. Teachers were allocated by the Department to make videos for upload on YouTube and SABC would carry all the costs of uploading the curriculum. SABC can upload the videos only once the MOU is signed. SABC has already signed it, but the MOU is with the Department.

An SABC representative clarified that the Department was consulted on cost containment measures but was mainly talking about the operating model and does not in any way discuss retrenchments. A 12 June 2020 meeting was held with the SABC CEO to discuss the targeted operating model. The GTAC report does mention staff costs and this must be discussed clearly. There is confusion on Direct-to-Home (DTH) and Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT). As a country we are more than five years behind on digital migration. The SABC can go online. DTT and DTH is a technology for terrestrial television. However, DTH itself is not cast in stone as subscription broadcasters also partner with Over-the-Top (OTT) internet streaming service providers and SABC can also do this.

Department and Ministry response
Mr Alfred Mashishi from the Department clarified that the explanation given by the SABC was correct. The Department of Basic Education works with the SABC to cover learners who cannot work online. Providing a platform for this has been challenging.

Deputy Minister Kekana said the SABC was scheduled to accommodate COVID-19 announcements which brought unintended consequences to the scheduling of SABC programmes. The SABC then met with the Minister in the Presidency to discuss getting R140 million to mitigate some of these unintended consequences. The Department would meet the following day to discuss the interventions it needs to take.

Further comments
Dr Ndlozi said he wanted to state categorically that the SABC is on the right track except on worker retrenchments. He asked again what the investigation outcome was on the sabotage of President Ramaphosa’s address.

Ms Faku referred to DTT and DTH and said that the SABC must mobilise a campaign to ensure that the nine million unsubsidised households migrate to DTT.

Mr Plaatjes replied that the SABC is limited to only 16% for DTH. SABC is not against DTT but there is a need for policy and regulatory reform.

Ms Majozi said she did not get a response to her question on the R1 billion coronavirus awareness fund and how much SABC received from this. She agreed that the SABC was on the right track.

Mr Plaatjes replied that the SABC has not received any of the R1 billion.

Ms Van Damme said a couple of hours was needed to properly interrogate SABC. She suggested a meeting be set up for a longer time.

Mr Madisha said there is a crisis and insisted that SABC is not telling the truth. The Committee and SABC urgently need to meet again. He clarified that he meant that the SABC had said it had received a billion and was successful. This is a lie, because now the organisation says its struggling.

Mr Plaatjes replied that the SABC respectfully disagrees that it lied. It initially said it was on track as the 2020 financial year began with a R400 million deficit. This includes the GTAC recommendations and Section 189 process which the Committee has seen. SABC has a listenership but government has not spent on this.

Mr Mxakwe stressed that SABC has never lied to the Committee and that staff retrenchments were part of a plan which was approved by Parliament.

Ms Kubheka asked for clarity on cost containment and the turnaround.

Mr Molala said his question was not answered and the presentation did not speak to the commercial arm of SABC and if it was making progress. Another session with SABC was needed. He pointed out that the SABC Board Chairperson’s tone was not good. He could not say the Committee wanted to disrupt the SABC’s turnaround strategy. The Committee was merely asking clarity seeking questions to assist and support SABC, not to be in opposition to it.

Mr Plaatjes replied some plans could not be shared in detail, but the operating plan has been shared in more detail and the end result can be seen in the revenue growth.

Mr Mxakwe replied that of the R6.5 billion generated, 82% came from commercial deals, advertising and sponsorship. He reiterated that only 3% of this amount was received from government.

Mr Makathini asked for the support of the Portfolio Committee in getting the SABC to be financially viable.

The Chairperson said it was clear that much engagement was still needed with the SABC. The HR processes of SABC and page 19 of the report was flagged as being in the red. This was sent out prematurely and creates panic and uncertainty and ultimately brings instability. It was not a populist stance and it was not that the Committee did not want to be associated with retrenchments. The Committee supported the SABC turnaround strategy and wanted it to be viable, but processes must be seen to be fair.

The Chairperson made closing remarks and thanked all those present at the meeting.

Mr Makhatini said that some of the details requested by Committee members would come only after consultation processes as dictated by the Labour Relations Act. Until SABC engages with the labour unions and the CMMA, this information cannot be provided.

Members then had a disagreement after Ms Van Damme cautioned SABC Board and said the Committee cannot be vetoed. “The Board can speak to the Minister like that, but this Committee is the body that it reports to. SABC should bear this in mind in its next engagement with the Committee and should not speak to the Committee in the way that it has”.

The Minister said the Chairperson was allowing her to be disrespected.

The Chairperson asked Ms Van Damme to clarify her point.

Ms Van Damme said the Minister “must relax, bring it down”.

Members then all shouted comments.

The Minister said to Ms Van Damme “this was why she was not a minister and would never be”.

Members called for the meeting to be adjourned.

Meeting adjourned.